Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

[Andrew Cermak]

My copy of VVV just arrived in the mail, so I figured I'd make myself available to satisfy any curiosity anyone might have about the contents.

One thing that stood out is that GMs looking for more low-powered adversaries will be very pleased. But some do tip the scales in the other direction; The Curse is a particularly nasty piece of work.

I was also pleased to see an homage of sorts to Exo-Skeleton Man; he's not precisely the same character, but he's definitely cut from a similar cloth. :thumbup:

[Loxly]

How many of the charcters are 350 points or less vs total in the book ... please. :)

[Lord Liaden]

Thank you for this service to the community, Andrew. :)

Are there any "old school" villains whose names we'd remember from earlier editions?

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Thank you for this service to the community, Andrew. :)

Are there any "old school" villains whose names we'd remember from earlier editions?

Just Sunburst.....everyone else is new.

Rob

[Andrew Cermak]

How many of the charcters are 350 points or less vs total in the book ... please. :)

13, plus one more who is 356. So nearly a quarter.

One, Buzzsaw, is 153! (You can see him in Gadgets and Gear, demonstrating the Bladeshooter against Nighthawk).

[Andrew Cermak]

Thank you for this service to the community, Andrew. :)

My pleasure!


Are there any "old school" villains whose names we'd remember from earlier editions?

Sunburst is the only direct port (same Secret ID, same origin, pretty much the same powers except moreso), but two more, Exo and Spirit Dragon, are recognizable versions of previous characters: Exo-Skeleton Man and Dragonmaster, respectively. Spirit Dragon is a former Tiger Squad member who has fled to the US and desires to overthrow Communist China, while Exo is a former petty crook who somehow managed to build himself a suit of power armor, but remains a fairly hapless thug regardless.

Spirit Dragon, besides being an accomplished master of a unique form of Kung Fu, also has some Iron Fist-esque powers. So far, he's one of my favorites.

[Lord Liaden]

I had heard that Sunburst would be making his return in this book, but wanted confirmation that he had in fact been included. Ever since Project: Sunburst was included in the 5E CU I've been waiting for his appearance. I'll be interested to see how he's been developed.

Spirit Dragon is good news. :) Dragonmaster was too interesting a character to be left languishing in limbo. With all the chi powers that Susano has built for Ninja HERO and Digital Hero, I'm sure SD can do some Kewl Stuff.

[Andrew Cermak]

With all the chi powers that Susano has built for Ninja HERO and Digital Hero, I'm sure SD can do some Kewl Stuff.

On the subject of chi powers, Overdrive is an interesting villain along those lines. He has baseline Characteristics except for a 15 Int and a 3 Spd...but he also has a 120 point Multipower that allows him to pump as much as 60 points into any of his Characteristics (no figureds). From phase to phase he can be a brick, a speedster...or a 70 PRE, 130 COM recruiter of a cult army. :eek:

[Balabanto]

Well, don't panic. I sheeted Leroy for Foxbat For President, so as long as you can get Digital Hero, you'll get your wish.

The Brawling Balabanto is big on wish-fulfillment.

[Hermit]

My copy of VVV just arrived in the mail, so I figured I'd make myself available to satisfy any curiosity anyone might have about the contents.

One thing that stood out is that GMs looking for more low-powered adversaries will be very pleased. But some do tip the scales in the other direction; The Curse is a particularly nasty piece of work.

I was also pleased to see an homage of sorts to Exo-Skeleton Man; he's not precisely the same character, but he's definitely cut from a similar cloth. :thumbup:

Awesome. I'm highly curious about just who is in there. Any new mentalists? CU: News of the World has both Menton and PSI on the ropes to say the least so I am curious if anyone is filling the vacuum.

[Andrew Cermak]

Any new mentalists?

A few. ;) Overbrain, the leader of the Brain Trust, is a telepathic and telekinetic brain who spends a fair amount of time in a jar. Blindside is a blind mentalist who can rewrite neural pathways; besides his many other powers, I think he's the first CU character without a VPP who can pull the Mind Switch trick. Dreamwitch has some mental-esque powers. Mindgame is a potent illusionist. Rictus is a zombie-raiser with some supplementary mental powers.

[Hermit]

Thanks. :) I'm intrigued by a lot of things I hear already. What's the goal of the Braintrust? Just getting rich? World conquest? taunting heroes in French?

[Andrew Cermak]

The Overbrain is after world conquest. The members of the Brain Trust are genetically programmed to be loyal to him. Besides the Overbrain itself, they're average to low-powered, so they'll likely be committing general crimes to increase their power base for quite awhile.

[Steve Long]

The general purpose of both the Brain Trust and the Crime Lords, story-wise, is to give the CU more "generic" villain teams that can do just about anything. Technically the Overbrain has goals, but they're broad enough to allow for just about any activity by his team. We've got enough teams with specific agendas; I wanted to give GMs more teams that could show up just about anywhere for any purpose. ;)

[BobGreenwade]

Who's in there that would be good for comic effect? :D

[Bloodstone]

Avantguard is a loony shapshifter with a gadget pool, duplication, teleportation powers.

[Andrew Cermak]

Who's in there that would be good for comic effect? :D

As mentioned, Avant Guard is a Dada type who would work both for comedy and for Morrison style high weirdness.

Buzzsaw is an overconfident supervillain built on just over 150 points. His description explicitly says that he works well for making your heroes look good and feel tough.

Overbrain is a floating megalomanical brain; his absurdity combined with his self-importance makes him a good comical mastermind for those who want one.

Lash is a low-powered skirt-chaser who could certainly provide comic moments if you have any female PCs.

[Bloodstone]

The Overbrain and Ape Plus struck me as homages to The Brain and Monsieur Mallah, only a bit more in line with their abilities from the Teen Titans cartoon.

[Andrew Cermak]

Any new mentalists?

Forgot one; Kanrok the Aquisitioner is both a cosmic energy projector and a mentalist.

[Cardinal]

Are there going to be PDF and HD character packs available? My memory is that it takes a little while to turn those around. Is that correct?

[Dr. MID-Nite]

On the subject of chi powers, Overdrive is an interesting villain along those lines. He has baseline Characteristics except for a 15 Int and a 3 Spd...but he also has a 120 point Multipower that allows him to pump as much as 60 points into any of his Characteristics (no figureds). From phase to phase he can be a brick, a speedster...or a 70 PRE, 130 COM recruiter of a cult army. :eek:

I thought putting stats in a MUltipower like that was not allowed in 5th?

Rob

[Bloodstone]

Nothing about it is against the rules, though STR, DEX, CON and BOD all get No figured Characteristics.

Elemental Controls have the must cost END restriction, so that would prevent most characteristics from being put in an EC normally.

[Battlestaff]

What's VVV?

[Metaphysician]

Villains, Vandals, and Vermin, the recently released villain book.

[FenrisUlf]

Yet another Champs book, yay!

BTW, just where is the schedule for new bvooks being released this year? I keep failing to find it on the site.

[Lord Liaden]

I'm not sure if there's a dedicated spot on the new website for it yet; but you can check the Sticky threads at the top of the "Company Questions" forum for the latest schedule.

[FenrisUlf]

Thanks for the info, LL!

And oh yes -- I'm very glad to see that VVV has write-ups for all the animal-themed villains they mentioned in CKC; I'm eager to see how my versions measure up.

Hey, what can I say? I like animal-themed characters. Now I just have to figure out a plotline where the Beast Kings try to use their mortal avatars to stop Joseph Otanga from using the Altar of Beasts to enslave them all...

[ashton2]

Villains, Vandals, and Vermin, the recently released villain book.

So its completely released? I ask cause my friendly local game store still doesnt have it in and doesnt seem to know anything about this one.

:cry:

[Balabanto]

I was told that it is out of stock at present, and that I would have to wait to get one by my LGS.

I did get Champions, News of The World, though.

[Darren Watts]

We have plenty in stock, guys, and so does every major distributor (and most of the minor ones.) If your store doesn't have one, either it's been badly treated by it's own distributor (in which case it might want to contact us directly) or is talking through it's blowhole. dw

[nexus]

Is this book available as a PDF? I didn't see it in the store but I may have missed it.

[Bloodstone]

this should be it:

https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=222223

[nexus]

Thanks. Not sure how I missed that. :o

[Loxly]

Mine is wing it's .. eerr ... wheeling it's way to me as I type this. :thumbup:

[humantorch101]

Hey guys, any chance of a character list and when should this one be in the UK?

[death tribble]

About two weeks after the States side gets it we do. I have found that with Hero products.

I'll let you know as I watch the game store releases each week and it should be coming next week.

[Bloodstone]

Hey guys, any chance of a character list and when should this one be in the UK?

The table of contents is listed in the preview here:

https://www.herogames.com/get/VVV_preview.pdf

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Having had a chance to go through it, I like it. A few of the writeups felt a bit rushed(primarily the ones based on pictures in other books). A lot of slap a few powers in and call it a day approach: Grenadier, Timelapse, Momentum...among others. Luckily, there are some gems in there and plenty of homage to both regular comic characters and past Hero products. Among them:

Sunburst-Pretty much just like you remember him, but with even bigger energy blasts.
Grotesque: 5th Edition version of Hideous
EXO: Foxbat's partner in crime is back. For those who doubt it's him...check out the secret ID name.
Spirit Dragon: Yeap...this is Dragon Master...with an even more heroic bent,
Overbrain and Ape Plus: Teen Titans' Brain and Mallah. or...for just the Overbrain...a 5th edition version of the Mind Master Complex.
Dreadnaught: Bad guy version of Colossus.
Blackguard:This guy...personality wise..screams Shamrock to me...though he isn't as strong(but he's certainly as tough).
Grenadier: Bad guy version of X-men's Gambit.
Lash: Dead ringer for Marvel's Blacklash.
Mind Game: Mastermind, but less versatile(he needs area effect mental illusions to seal the deal.)
Plague: More or less how Voice's Carrier was meant to be done.
Vester: DC's Man Bat.

Some of the better writeups for me included Fleshtone, Plague, and most of The Tiger Squad. As a side note, check out Nuke's "Nuke Blast" if you really want an attack to scare your players....or The Curse.

Rob

[Killer Shrike]

Got a copy today. After a cursory skim, I've yet to be impressed. I don't think this is a worthy successor to CKC. And the art is generally pretty bad, too.

[Loxly]

Got a copy today. After a cursory skim, I've yet to be impressed. I don't think this is a worthy successor to CKC. And the art is generally pretty bad, too.

Just got my yesterday, and I agree of the artwork.

On the otherhand, I've only really looked at one character, Ambush. Turn out, just the type of character I was looking for for an upcoming Adventure.

So, guess I'm mixed. :idjit:

[Dr. MID-Nite]

True, the artwork left something to be desired(though I can't call it bad as anything in there would be better than what I could accomplish), but I thought most of the concepts and character writeups were reasonable(beyond what I said earlier). Plague and Fleshtone were basically begging to be written up ever since they first appeared and they didn't disappoint. Those two are exhibit A for why you should buy Power Defense. I liked the Project Sunburst group as well. I noticed almost nobody who did art on the first book are involved with this one. Are they now too expensive or was there some other reason they weren't involved in the project?

Rob

[death tribble]

And sadly no Villains, Vandals and Vermin this side of the Atlantic this week.

Ho Hum.

[Peregrine]

Got a copy today. After a cursory skim, I've yet to be impressed. I don't think this is a worthy successor to CKC. And the art is generally pretty bad, too.

Agreed. Color me singularly unimpressed. None of the characters spurred my imagination to any great degree.

[TheQuestionMan]

Sounds like Villains Vandals And Vermin "debugged" for 5th Edition Revised is going to necessary.


Ouch, but I plan to pick it up and make my own judgements. Thanks crew.


QM

[Lord Liaden]

Anyone want to offer an assessment of Project Sunburst and the Tiger Squad? Those are what I'm most interested in from this book.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Anyone want to offer an assessment of Project Sunburst and the Tiger Squad? Those are what I'm most interested in from this book.

Sure...I'll chime in on them...as I thought they were two of the best areas of the book. First Project Sunburst:

Sunburst: More or less very close to his 4th edition version(with the same MO). I'd say he's a second tier master villain...like Holocaust. Sunburst has a lot of very powerful energy blasts, but not much versatility.

Helios: More or less similiar to, but opposite of Sunburst. less powerful, but can use his powers in a greater variety of ways.

Nuke: The "Brick" of the team, but check out that Nuke Blast(20d6 Explosion Double Knockback which levels damage off every two hexes instead of one....sheesh!)

Phaze: Density controller who prefers his intangibility state. This is the "villain with a hero waiting to come out" character.

The art on the above characters(as well as about half the Tiger Squad) was the best in the book.

The Tiger Squad lists several members:

Graniteman: Villainous mindset, but has the luxury of working for the Chinese government to cover up his activities. Tough brick type.(45/45 Def...50 CON)

Summer Cloud: Pretty standard wind controller. The member of the Tiger Squad the PCs will probably like the best since she's both pro democracy and generally pleasant to be around. A picture from the USPD is reused here.

Red Bullet: Chinese speedster....his powers are comparable to the updated Kinetik from the Ultimate Speedster. Both...REALLY pro communist AND really heroic.

Technocrat: Gadgeteer: Fairly dull writeup here, but I've seen worse. Also pro democracy(and fairly close to Summer Cloud).

Winter Dragon: Also pro communist, but more obnoxious about it. Still heroic, but the member of the team the PCs will probably like least(beyond true baddies like Graniteman). His writeup is also fairly typical ice projector stuff(but I liked the "Rescue Slide" power.)

Hope that helps,
Rob

[Lord Liaden]

Much obliged, Rob. That definitely helps. :hail:

I'm glad Sunburst hasn't changed substantially. I developed him and his followers further for a past campaign, and would like to reintroduce that concept when and if I get a group together again. I'm also collecting Chinese super characters from Champions books to fill the Tiger Squad. These should take me over a dozen. :)

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Much obliged, Rob. That definitely helps. :hail:

I'm glad Sunburst hasn't changed substantially. I developed him and his followers further for a past campaign, and would like to reintroduce that concept when and if I get a group together again. I'm also collecting Chinese super characters from Champions books to fill the Tiger Squad. These should take me over a dozen. :)

Well....in my campaign, I briefly had Radium as part of The Ultimates(as per 5th), but as he didn't really seem to fit in(a mute loner among villains who generally enjoy each other's company), I replaced him with Anklosaur...who seemd a better fit. Radium will likely return to Sunburst's fold(along with a 5th update of Ray)

Rob

[FenrisUlf]

Concerning the Tiger Squad: minor point, but I'll miss Gossamer Storm. You can never have too many gorgeous, sexy, magic-using Dragon Ladies.

[Lord Liaden]

Gossamer Storm and the other 4E Squaders from Watchers Of The Dragon would be easy to update to 5E. There's no reason they couldn't still be part of that 50+ member superteam.

I've also adapted a few of the less criminal members of Ying (from Murderers Row) to Tiger Squad-hood.

[Lord Liaden]

Well....in my campaign, I briefly had Radium as part of The Ultimates(as per 5th), but as he didn't really seem to fit in(a mute loner among villains who generally enjoy each other's company), I replaced him with Anklosaur...who seemd a better fit. Radium will likely return to Sunburst's fold(along with a 5th update of Ray)

Rob

When I used Project Sunburst for my 4E campaign, Ray and Radium were both part of the group, along with Randal Gordon (who was and is Armadillo in official CU continuity). However, I put Gordon in the more powerful Dreadnought armor (from Classic Enemies). I decided that the beneficial mutation he gained from Project Sunburst was immunity to radiation, so that the normally lethal rad leakage from the Dreadnought's power plant would have no effect on him.

[Killer Shrike]

I didnt care for the artwork for Project Sunburst much, but it was markedly better than most of the rest of the book.

My big problem with this group is that its very one dimensional. If your PC's are good at dealing w/ energy attacks then they will find this team a bit weak. If they arent, a bit strong. An offbeat team could very well skate thru or have no answers at all depending on their bent...its just too far in one direction for my tastes.

Kind of an "eh" for me.

The Tiger Squad also was kind of "eh". None of the characters had "cool" factor.


The only villain that really caught my eye and made me go "hmm" was Grenade, and only because she had a neat custom gimmick power.

The art for the Crimelords was the best in the book, and had a vestige of an interesting concept, but the actual characters were boring, and the point distributions were all over the place. The leader is sub 300 and the weak link of the team and her rival in a love triangle is in the 700's. Just didnt make a lot of sense to me.


Whenever a book like this just kind of leaves me cold though I try to make a practice of putting it down and coming back to it later to see if I was just in a "eh" mood when I read it or if it really is just blase. So...we'll see in a week or so.

[Metaphysician]

Oddly enough, this is a good sign from my PoV. What I need for my campaign right now *are* mooks with schticks, who I can develop or not as I need.

[Cardinal]

I would generally agree that I found much of the art disappointing. I thought the Tiger Squad did a great job of providing pretty much every personality variant you could get on an opposing hero team (bad guy in cover of authority, good guy who believes in communism, good guy who is a pro-democracy, etc.).

Like CUNOTW, I was a bit surprised at the builds. There were a number of characters who forwent an EC for no apparent reason (e.g. Summer Cloud). While others are absolutely framework happy. Morgaine is just itching to break out a four-way MPA on some happless hero. I also was surprised to see so many heroes in CUNOTW and VVV with End Bat. It seems like the accessory of the year for the fashionable super.

Some of the villains were absolutely over the top in terms of powersets (e.g. The Curse), but intentionally so. Others were very low power. In short, it was exactly the full range of characters that they promised.

BTW, does anyone know if Darren, Steve, et al plan on releasing HDC files for CUNOTW and VVV? How long does it normally take to turn those around?

[Metaphysician]

I like the greater use of END Reserves. They let you make heroes that don't need 0 END on everything, and can still use their powers for extended periods without also needing superhuman stamina. Kinetik should perhaps have one too.

[Killer Shrike]

My take on the solos:

Ambush: Ok. Usable, but a bit boring

Arachne: Yawn

Avant Guard: Not my style -- way too silly

Basilisk: Basically unusable due to bs Transform

Blackguard: Meat & potatoes, but I've already got a pile of characters in this same vein

Blindside: Usable. If I didnt already have similar characters of my own design I might actually do something with this character in a higher point game.

Buzzsaw: Worthless...his only attack is 1d6 KA with AP and Autofire x5. AP in 1d6? In a setting where half of even the RECOMMENDED would still exceed what you can roll on a d6? Penetrating would have at least have been useful vs non hardened armor. Circular file this one.

The Curse: Unusable. And the first of many "leering death head" villains in the book.

Dreamwitch: Usable core, but I'd have to restructure this character to use it. And she has a 6 SPD why? Justified by what? Her dream powers? :thumbsdown:

Entropy: Leering deaths head #2....basically usable I guess. Not very exciting to me. Also, would have some real serious END issues.

EXO: basically usable. I have a feeling he'll become a target for Makeshift ;)

Fleshtone: Leering deaths head #3, and also unusable. Not my style for supers at all.

Galaxia: goofy concept, usable build.

Gauntlet: Got a grab-bag multipower, but other than that is basically ok. Unfortunately I already have a villain of my own named Gauntlet (http://www.killershrike.com/EnforcersINC/Characters/Gauntlet.html)...maybe Ill make a side story out of the two of them duking it out over the name in an SNN segue.

Geos: Serviceable geomancer.

Grenade: like the object charging custom mechanic. I'd use this character as part of a group, but she's far too weak to solo.

Grotesque: Eh.

Kanrok: I don't get into the Kirby space shtick. Not my thing. Pass

Lash: He'd be pretty badaz is certain kinds of Dark Champions campaigns, but he's just too anemic to be usable in most supers games. Still, nothing wrong with the structure of the character overall.

Leviathan: If you're using Lemuria in your setting, usable. If not, usable with some refactoring.

Magnetica: Ill have to double back and reread this character later. I sense something usable there, but I want to cross reference w/ any other magnetics types.

Mantisman: Beetle homage. Some might be into it. For me its a pass.

Megavolt: Usable. I like the Ionize ability, but it should be bought outside the Multipower so he can keep it on while blasting at full strength.

Mindgame: Eh. Usable, not very interesting. SPD 5 too high for the concept IMO.

Momentum: Pass. We already got Holocaust, this guys just a chumpy knock off. Also, characters that have over half their points in a VPP can be very good and accurately model an concept pretty well. Or they can be like this guy, just vague and ill defined.

Onslaught: Usable, but I've already got a pile of (better) characters very similar. Heck, you can almost sneeze out a light Brick MA, they're so easy.

Orion: awful art, dopey eye roller of a background, boring build. Should call him "kitchen sink man". Way too similar to Gauntlet who appears in the same book in broad brushstrokes.

Overdrive: Hey look. I had a character very much like this called the Mod. When I did it people said it was cheesy and munchkin. This guy is much more extreme with it...so either I wasn't off base after all or this character is cheesy and munchkin. Hmm.

Plague: awful awful art. either that or its just very abstract. Anyway, another unusable character IMO. Way too dark.

Python: looks like the same artist as did Plague, but this one is actually pretty ok. Generally usable shtick-brick, but how is Only To Grab only worth a -1/2 of STR? Without even No Figured being applied as well, even? That's total bs. STR does so many things its mindboggling. Only To Grab should be at least a -1, and NFC should also be applied.

Ricochet: Eh. I greatly prefer my own villain named Ricochet (http://www.killershrike.com/EnforcersINC/Characters/Richochet_650.html). pass.

Rictus: doesnt suit my style, but I can see WilyQuixote using him if he were to be GM again. He loves that zombie stuff.

SARGON: Usable. I'll probably incorporate into the setting...I can see Makeshift setting his sights on this guy as his armor is a bit different.

Smoke & Mirrors: I intensely dislike themed villains like this. How convenient, mutant siblings who independently manifested two different power sets that happen to match an old saying like "Smoke & Mirrors". Bleh.

Spirit Dragon: one dimensional but usable.

Sunspot: wheres Cannonball, Wolfsbane, Cypher, and the gang? Anyway, eh on the character. Yet another END Res based blaster.

syzygy: huh? Mechanon Lite; the Diet Pepsi of human crushing robotic evil. Not quite evil enough. Passsssss.


Terrayne Between Graniteman, Geos, and this guy, all your earth elemental needs should be met. Or in my case exceeded. Pass.

Timelapse: another basically unusable character. Either your PC's don't have adequate Power Defense in which case they are hosed, or they do and this guy is useless. Rock Paper Scissors.


Vesper: Hey look, its Man-Bat. Vesper is such a waste of a good name on this guy (but I think Ill continue to let my own Vesper (http://www.killershrike.com/southernjustice/vesper.html) retain it). Yet another pass.


Pretty grim tally, really.

[FenrisUlf]

I like the greater use of END Reserves. They let you make heroes that don't need 0 END on everything, and can still use their powers for extended periods without also needing superhuman stamina. Kinetik should perhaps have one too.

Yeah, I like it ad I think it's a good idea myself. Allows you to make characters who are normal humans Characteristic-wise, but they still have the energy needed to bust out the Energy Blasts and Force Fields.

[Metaphysician]

It also provides a much cleaner "vulnerability". Instead of needing to target a whole power set with adjustment powers, whack the END Reserve with a Suppress or Drain or Dispel or such. Suddenly, the character can't use his powers, either at all or without burning double END out of their own personal pool.

[name_tamer]

I've always wondered why more characters don't have END reserves. They seem very efficient, and for certain conceptions, very in-genre.

[FenrisUlf]

It also provides a much cleaner "vulnerability". Instead of needing to target a whole power set with adjustment powers, whack the END Reserve with a Suppress or Drain or Dispel or such. Suddenly, the character can't use his powers, either at all or without burning double END out of their own personal pool.

That thought had occurred to me as well. Gives the poor agents a nice way to level the playing ground betwene them and those stuck-up heroes.*

* -- Just so long as it only happens rarely. You do it every story, your players will use your head for a volleyball.

[nexus]

My personal preference is not to use End reserves unless there is some conceptual reason that character's powers are drawing on some pool of power that isn't connected to their physical stamina like a Mana, an power battery, Vampire's Blood Pool or Aberrant's Quantum.

[death tribble]

Well it did come to these shores this week and I have it.

I take what people have already said about the artwork but am glad to see the likes of The Curse Dreamwitch, Entropy, Fleshtone and Plague make their proper debut.
Nice to see the Brain and Monsieur Mallah, sorry Overbrain and Ape Plus.

The rest I need to look at with more diligence

[Killer Shrike]

...but am glad to see the likes of The Curse Dreamwitch, Entropy, Fleshtone and Plague make their proper debut.

So...you like villains that have attacks that not only do most PC superheroes have little or no defense against, but also can affect permanent highly undesirable changes on those PC's (assuming they don't kill them outright)? Not to mention the effects of their powers on background NPC's.

Personally, The Curse, Fleshtone, and Plague are all far too dark and grotesque for the kind of supers games I run, and Entropy is in that general direction as well. Do you run a darker style game?

[TheQuestionMan]

I am with you Killer Shrike, but sometimes its nice to make the Players think twice about engaging someone that dangerous.

I think it adds a element of self preservation.

QM

[lapsedgamer]

I think he's just happy to see them make it into the game since we've known about them for such a long time. :)


I do run a darker style of game [I like the new DEMON] but even then many of these characters wouldn't fit in my game. I don't find Fleshtone to be too bad but when compiled with the others it seems to become redundant [too many characters doing the same basic thing].

Putting the poor artwork and uninspired backgrounds aside, I find most of these characters are just incredibly poorly constructed. Dexes and defenses all over the place with a general reduction in Con in many cases due to using End Reserves. That leaves far too many characters who can be stunned by simple 10d6-11d6 attacks.

On top of that many of the characters are just cookie-cutter in design. It's like Steve opened the USPD and just picked things right out of the book without any thought of originality. Do we really need another brick like Dreadnaught who has the same "brick trick" multipower everyone else has? Where's the originality? Does the mentalists have to have the same 60 point multipowers with the same mind control, mental illusion, ego attack that everyone has?

I'm not even going to try to figure out the Dark Champions power level characters like Ambush, Arachne, Buzzsaw, Lynx, and others. What game has use for characters whose damage is in the 3 to 6 DC range?


I think they were trying to present a broad range of characters at every power level. I assume some people still play lower powered games. I do agree that some of the builds were repetitive, based on some of the other write ups from the past. I wonder if they were trying to present some of the USPD material for people who do not have the books. Just a thought. My two cents: this is not European Enemies, it's just not as good as CKC. I would use about 60% of the characters as written and tweak some others. Ther are a few I would only use as plot devices, i.e. The Curse.

I have noticed a difference between Steve and Darren's write ups. I wonder if I am imagining this. Darren leans heavily toward the old NCM, while Steve is more likely to go up through the new normal person cap of 30. I would probably go Darren's way,if I had to choose. I think many characters sink a lot of point sinto DEX and SPD before they even get around to their conception. However, I don't always know how all these characters would be able to interact with one another.

Unless I'm wrong and Steve is just mixing up the power levels to show differnt ways of building things.

[Loxly]

I assume some people still play lower powered games.

My groups Champions games have been 250 points or less for the last 25 years ... up to about a month ago when I up the starting points to 350.

They went: "350?!?! :nonp: "

[death tribble]

I think he's just happy to see them make it into the game since we've known about them for such a long time. :)

That is it in a nutshell.

I think we should lay off the art criticism a bit as Sketchpad who posts here is one of the artists. If anyone has USPD and then compares the original pics of Fleshtone and Entropy for example with his then they could say they preferred the originals. Expectation on these was high.
Overall the art is simple and can be straight adapted. Not the case obviously with Grenadier, Granite Man and some others but if you see the book you know what I mean.

Could the whole book have been better ? Yes. Will many of us buy it regardless ? Yes.

[Metaphysician]

My groups Champions games have been 250 points or less for the last 25 years ... up to about a month ago when I up the starting points to 350.

They went: "350?!?! :nonp: "

Did you never hand out XP?

[name_tamer]

IMO we're paying Hero Games for their creativity.

And here I thought we were paying them for the art. [/snark]

[lapsedgamer]

I'm sure there are people playing Teen Champions games and such but the CU was set up for 350 point play. Villains with 11 defense, 18 con, and 6d6 attacks really aren't going to go far in the CU. :)

I have to agree that a villain built the way you describe is not going to be very successful in the world at large, but why else would they present lower point characters? Is there any 350 point character who wouldn't whup Buzzsaw in under two phases? I can only assume he was created as an example of a minor nuisance character at the 250 point level.


It's possible, but IMO we're paying Hero Games for their creativity. I can buy USPD and pick from a list all by myself. I don't need to pay Steve or Darren to do that for me. :)

Yeah, I feel you. I'm not happy with some of the write ups in this book, as I said. I'm just trying to figure out what happened, and that seemed like a logical explanation.



It does seem as if Steve and Darren have two different campaign levels when writing for the CU. I don't see much of Steve going through 30 though. Steve tends to make a lot of 20 dex characters and tends to cap-out around 27 or so in most cases.

It was just a thought. I just notice that Darren seems to spend less on DEX and SPD for the same concepts sometimes.


Bottom line: I give the book a B-. I just hope the guys are going to come back with a stronger showing in the upcoming CCC.

[TheQuestionMan]

Teamwork and Coordinated Attacks make all the difference.


Lots of bad guys too.


QM

[Andrew Cermak]

I certainly understand the concept of a nuisance character [that's the whole point of Foxbat after all] but someone like Buzzsaw is obviously a combat character who is not even a nuisance in combat.

Buzzsaw's Campaign Use section says what he's there for: to get whipped. He reminds me of the Ultimate version of the Shocker: a loser with a nifty weapon who gets repeatedly trashed by Spider-Man while Spidey's on his way to an actual challenge. He makes the protagonist look good, and he provides a little extra action and humor if the story needs it.

I, for one, see it as a positive thing that the Champions Universe has similar characters available.

[Andrew Cermak]

Just as in comicbook universes, there's room in the CU for both mooks and jokes.

[lapsedgamer]

...I certainly understand the concept of a nuisance character [that's the whole point of Foxbat after all] but someone like Buzzsaw is obviously a combat character who is not even a nuisance in combat. The builds leave me to believe that they were overage characters from Predators that Steve just slapped some extra speed and dex onto to use in VVV.


B-? Really? How bad does something have to be to get a D on your scale? :)

European Enemies (4th Ed?) was an F for me, Cyber Hero of the same vintage was D-. Of the new stuff, I have only been disappointed in one other purchase I've made. I did not like DC:TAS as much as I thought I would. I gave that a C-.

I wonder if you may be right about some of these characters working better in a DC or DC:TAS game. I hadn't thought of that right of the bat, but then again DC: TAS is basically a 250 point game with a few quirks.

[Loxly]

Did you never hand out XP?

Did ... all the time.

So did all the other people in the group that ran thier game.

As GMs, setting*, new players joined, or power levels changed, we "reset" the points to 250. Or lower, if the power-level went down.

* ... Some setting where like CU where supers were common. Others where like "Mutant X" where we were "new" and the points were 150ish.

[Goradin]

So boost him up to fit in your campaign, MitchellS, I know you clearly have enough knowledge to do that. I have not seen the book yet as mine is in transit.

Arrange a radiation accident or an appointment with Telios perhaps, maybe an Evil Sorcerer can grant him more powers similiar to what Loki did for the Absorbing Man? It would be a compelling storyline how they beat us on him and he vows revenge, makes a deal with a devil, roids up in one of the above ways and viola the battle royale ensues. Makes for a great storyline.

[Lord Liaden]

If it's a choice between characters with lower or higher power levels than I'm comfortable with, I prefer the former. IME it's generally easier to add things to characters to power them up, than to strip away things to weaken them.

Anyway, I get the impression that few gamers (myself included) run characters exactly as written.

[TheQuestionMan]

Etu... Monkey Boy Evo Art from Superbuddies.net


LOL


QM

[nexus]

Did you never hand out XP?

Getting experience can be very different from starting points being increased, IME. Generally a 350 point base character looks differenntly than a 250 point character with 100 experience.

[nexus]

My groups Champions games have been 250 points or less for the last 25 years ... up to about a month ago when I up the starting points to 350.

They went: "350?!?! :nonp: "

I ususally start with 350 but I have found that 250 leads to more variety among the characters. Everyone doesn't have all or most things at the max campaign values (at least not without serious optimization) so there's more need to team work to cover each others' weaknesses. OTOH, it can lead to frustration for some players because they can't build their character "right" but you can hear that at any point total. :)

I'm interested in Vvv specifically because it has "weaker" characters. I have some games they sound perfect for.

[TheQuestionMan]

Funniest thing recently I tried to rebuild a few of my original 250pt characters as 350pt characters and two out four ended up 250pts.

Weird


QM

[FenrisUlf]

If it's a choice between characters with lower or higher power levels than I'm comfortable with, I prefer the former. IME it's generally easier to add things to characters to power them up, than to strip away things to weaken them.

Anyway, I get the impression that few gamers (myself included) run characters exactly as written.

True.

I just got the book and leafed through it. It's okay, not as great as CKC, but good.

And I like Lynx -- Furry Fandom can count as a Knowledge Skill now? I guess we've finally become accepted by geekdom at large. :rockon:

Though if Mister Brain-in-a-Jug wanted to recruit any more potential animal-people, then believe me, if he set up a table at a furry con he'd get more potential beastmen flunkies than he'd know what to do with.

For that matter, the beastman drug that Snake Fatale has been pushing in 52 would go over big too. I might even give it a look myself. For purely academic reasons, of course.

[Sketchpad]

I think we should lay off the art criticism a bit as Sketchpad who posts here is one of the artists. If anyone has USPD and then compares the original pics of Fleshtone and Entropy for example with his then they could say they preferred the originals. Expectation on these was high.
Overall the art is simple and can be straight adapted. Not the case obviously with Grenadier, Granite Man and some others but if you see the book you know what I mean.

Could the whole book have been better ? Yes. Will many of us buy it regardless ? Yes.

Thanks Death Tribble :) Honestly guys, I have a pretty thick skin. We all have our bad days, and from what I've read in this thread, this book seems to be mine ;) I just hope people enjoy the book and use what they can in their campaigns ... I won't offer excuses, I'll just say I'll try to do better with the next work that I do (see the next Digital Hero).
If I may ask one thing though, if you didn't like the art, especially mine, please let me know what you didn't like about it :) An artist is only as good as his feedback and I'd like to do better the next time around :D Many thanks.

[Lord Liaden]

Now that is a classy response. :cool:

[Goradin]

Agreed, he will make it in this world with an attitude like that.

[Guzalot]

I just got my copy about a week ago. I agree that a large portion of the artwork is sub-par and some of it is downright bad. Unlike many of the other posters here, I really like the Brain Trust and the Crimelords. They are about the right power level for the campaign that I co-GM, where the characters started at 300 points and most are now in the 325 to 350 range. They are also generic enough to drop into just about any plotline for whatever reason I need at the moment.

Though some of the other villains in the book will never see the light of day in my games there are enough good ones for me to say that I think it's money well spent. Sunspot, Spirit Dragon, Plague and The Curse are some favorites. Overall, I give it 3 out of 5 stars.

[Guzalot]

Thanks Death Tribble :) Honestly guys, I have a pretty thick skin. We all have our bad days, and from what I've read in this thread, this book seems to be mine ;) I just hope people enjoy the book and use what they can in their campaigns ... I won't offer excuses, I'll just say I'll try to do better with the next work that I do (see the next Digital Hero).
If I may ask one thing though, if you didn't like the art, especially mine, please let me know what you didn't like about it :) An artist is only as good as his feedback and I'd like to do better the next time around :D Many thanks.
Which artwork is yours?

[Sketchpad]

Which artwork is yours?
IIRC, Gauntlet, Galaxia, Fleshtone, Exo, Entopy, Curse, Dreamwitch, Buzzsaw, Blindside, Basilisk and Avant Guard ...

[Guzalot]

IIRC, Gauntlet, Galaxia, Fleshtone, Exo, Entopy, Curse, Dreamwitch, Buzzsaw, Blindside, Basilisk and Avant Guard ...
I actually really like the artwork for Avant Guard and Curse. In fact, those are two of my favorite characters in the book. On that list, the ones that I did not like are Fleshtone and Basilisk. They just came off as..."bland" is the best word I can think of. Basilisk for example had very little detail, he's just a line drawing. He almost looks like a template with the details left unfinished, like you used to find on the old character sheets.

And thank you for the opportunity to give some feedback. As Liaden said, it's a classy move on your part.

[Sketchpad]

I actually really like the artwork for Avant Guard and Curse. In fact, those are two of my favorite characters in the book. On that list, the ones that I did not like are Fleshtone and Basilisk. They just came off as..."bland" is the best word I can think of. Basilisk for example had very little detail, he's just a line drawing. He almost looks like a template with the details left unfinished, like you used to find on the old character sheets.

And thank you for the opportunity to give some feedback. As Liaden said, it's a classy move on your part.
Thanks Guzalot :) I'll see what I can do to detail some of the characters a bit more when I do assignments.

[Goradin]

I just got it and it was an entertaining read. I liked it a lot better than some here did. Worth the cost. I do not buy books to gaze at the art or color them so the artwork didn't bother me.

Sure some of the NPCs were underpowered. I can fix the underpowered goons with some minor work and hero even includes how to do this and each of the underpowered ones had plot lines involving NPCs to increase their powers like say Wayland Talos.

My favs were probably Rictus and Flextone. Though, I found that Orion and Galaxia had neat story provoking backgrounds.

[Theron]

I've got it and am enjoying it. In fact, it's probably going to be the main source of villainy for my next campaign, provided I can get my butt in gear and put it together.

[Colossus]

I’ve yet to buy the book, but plan to do so.

From the description, I think Buzzsaw is useful. Buzzsaw or any underpowered villain is often able to catch the PC off guard. 1d6 RKA with an autofire is no real danger to most 350 PC, but it is to normals. If 4 blades hit a single normal (10 Body) they are most likely dead. Even if you play without hit location damage multipliers, as most of us do (I think), 2 1d6 can kill a person. PC tends to forget that they can ignore flying razor blades, but people on the street cannot.

A sample scenario. Buzzsaw become an Ultimate Shocker (good annlogy), Doctor Light, or Toad (back in the lacky days) to the PCs, they fight him 2 or 3 times and then he escapes (because they always escape). Here are 4 uses for the character after they know he is a “wimp”
1. PC do not respond (or respond quickly enough) to an emergency call because it’s just Buzzsaw, and a NPC (or DNPC) is killed, wounded, or kidnapped
2. Buzzsaw somehow gets a lucky shot it and actually wounds a PC, and they become a laughing stock.
3. Identity Crisis: Doctor Light clone. Buzzsaw becomes much more dangerous (new equipment) and still the PC will not take him seriously.
4. The League of Buzzsaws. One weak villain with a RKA nothing serious, 10 – a little more serious!

[nexus]

My issues with the book aren't only about power levels but when 1/3 of the characters in the book are essentially one-hit wonders it does make a statement about the book.

And that statement would be that the book isn't very useful for you without revision which is fair but not that its objectively bad. Personally, I'll have use for most of the characters in it for a couple of lower powered games I'm running.

[nexus]

and hey, the name of the book is Villians, Vandals and Vermin which doesn't imply its going to be a roster of world beaters. :D

[nexus]

I see it more as presenting a variety of characters for use across a wide spectrum. Not every character in a comic universe conforms to the standard, nor does every Champions game. Tying it to the Champions Universe is important because, without that, it would be rather difficult to create backgrounds and origins for the characters. It gives them some narrative center, IMO but YMM (and clearly does) V.

[nexus]

And there is nothing stopping you from using the lower powered characters in this book. Use more of them at once, use them in creative ways, use them for PC ego boosts or upgrade them a little. You can use the higher powered characters are normal and if you are running a lower powed game either in the CU or outside it, you can use the lower powered characters as is. More potential use, particularly for me as I find it much easier to power up than power down. But I don't think I'm going to change your mind and it hardly matters; you don't play Champions so you wouldn't be using these characters with some fairly extensive conversion even if they did meet with your approval. :)

[nexus]

And if I played mutants and masterminds I'd probably saying sometbing similar to you there :)

It just seemed odd to complain so vehmently about characters being unusable without alteration when you'd have to convert to use them anyway. If, for example, you were really really enthusiastic about Buzzsaw, you could make him any PL you wanted when you did his M and M character sheet.

Andthere's still the other 2/3rds of the book. I haven't used 2/3rds of the characters CKC yet.

[name_tamer]

It always seemed strange to me that there were relatively few low-powered superhumans in the CU. Clearly there's a range of power, and why would it arbitrarily stop at 350 points (or 10 DCs, or 12, or whatever) when the characters go far above that in power? So I was actually glad to see some "weaker" characters in the CU.

[Theron]

I don't believe most people find one-punch characters to be that entertaining in the game. Using said characters always ends up with the same storyline: One-punch must threaten something harm to keep from getting hit or One-punch gets one-punched. :)

I used to play in a no point limit Champions game. I had a 500 pt martial artist with a rogues gallery made of 250 pt villains and they caused me no end of trouble. Look at the Flash and his Rogues Gallery, or even most of Batman's foes compared to what he brings to the table. I refuse to fault a product for requiring the GM to use the contents with a modicum of forethought and creativity.

[Metaphysician]

As someone who was around for quite a few of the old "CKC has too many high powered villains" arguments, I hope I'm not the only one laughing at the irony. . .

[Lord Liaden]

As the old adage goes, "Trying to please everyone means no one is completely happy." :rolleyes:

[OddHat]

As someone who was around for quite a few of the old "CKC has too many high powered villains" arguments, I hope I'm not the only one laughing at the irony. . .

Yup.

Has anyone yet complained that there aren't enough VVV characters who can successfully smash a tank?

[Sketchpad]

I don't believe most people find one-punch characters to be that entertaining in the game. Using said characters always ends up with the same storyline: One-punch must threaten something harm to keep from getting hit or One-punch gets one-punched. :)
Yet, on the flip side ... people love reading about them in comics ;) Just look at Spidey's villains

[nexus]

You're assuming that just because I play M&M that I have no interest in the CU as an entity unto itself. I see the CU as a living breathing world in much the same way I see Marvel or DC [I don't play in those worlds either but I can still complain when I see Captain American fighting Aunt May :)]. Since Champions books are the only Hero books I buy I'm looking for expanded continuity and development. When I see things that make no sense I talk about it. You're also assuming that just because I'm playing M&M now that I'll never play Champions again [you're probably right there though :)].


Well no, if you had no interest in the CU, you wouldn't be here. I can't tell if you'll play Champions in the future or not, I'm not psychic, I don't see VV and V effects your future play one way or another, there's a few character you wouldn't use. And sure, you can complain about whatever you like, I'm certainly not trying to stop you. I don't get why you're so adamant about it but... *shrug*

[nexus]

Yet, on the flip side ... people love reading about them in comics ;) Just look at Spidey's villains

And inevitably the losers band together for the mandatory Rogue's Gallery gang up adventure. :)

Edit: Of course by that time the hero's gain enough exp from kicking their butts one at a time he can kick them their butts all at once with some effort but that's why being a villain sucks. :D

[nexus]

As someone who was around for quite a few of the old "CKC has too many high powered villains" arguments, I hope I'm not the only one laughing at the irony. . .

That's one reason why I like book personally. It presents a range of opposition and possibilities particularly when combined with the other villian books.

[JmOz]

any trick ammo characters?

[Enforcer84]

IMO the purpose of official books shouldn't be to cater to those who choose to use the material in a non-standard way. If someone wants to play a 250 point CU game that is fine but the books shouldn't be written for those people. The books should be written for the CU standard and is someone wants to play lower or higher point games they should do the legwork themselves. It's far easier for the 10% of buyers who play at 250 points to make characters weaker then it is for the 90% who don't to be forced to make the adjustments, IMO.
You're picky.

[Loxly]

As someone who was around for quite a few of the old "CKC has too many high powered villains" arguments, I hope I'm not the only one laughing at the irony. . .

I wasn't here for that, but I have thought that the CKC point totals where quite high. Then again, the point total for my group at the time was 250, making even the 350ish characters more powerfel than the PCs.

And it's one of the reasons I upped out points to 350 for starting characters.

[Bloodstone]

any trick ammo characters?

no

[Enforcer84]

Sounds like you could do a bunch of weak villains vs solo hero scenarios. Hey! It's almost every other major spiderman story arc! :D

[Clonus]

You're assuming that just because I play M&M that I have no interest in the CU as an entity unto itself. I see the CU as a living breathing world in much the same way I see Marvel or DC

A living breathing world SHOULD have knobs and jobbers, characters who are little more than agents in individual costumes as well as characters who can devastate cities with a missed shot. Spider-Man doesn't just fight the Green Goblin and the Rhino, he also fights the Kangaroo and the Disco Hustler.

[Guzalot]

IMO the purpose of official books shouldn't be to cater to those who choose to use the material in a non-standard way. If someone wants to play a 250 point CU game that is fine but the books shouldn't be written for those people. The books should be written for the CU standard and is someone wants to play lower or higher point games they should do the legwork themselves. It's far easier for the 10% of buyers who play at 250 points to make characters weaker then it is for the 90% who don't to be forced to make the adjustments, IMO.
What is "non-standard" about a low powered game? Entire sourcebooks have been written for lower powered games. Teen Champions and Dark Champions immediately spring to mind. What's wrong with including some villains that cater to this power level? Did someone make it a rule that anything that differs from the 350 suggested power level is "non-standard"?

Speaking only for myself, including some lower powered villains in VV&V is a selling point, not a negative. YMMV

[Trebuchet]

What is "non-standard" about a low powered game? Entire sourcebooks have been written for lower powered games. Teen Champions and Dark Champions immediately spring to mind. What's wrong with including some villains that cater to this power level? Did someone make it a rule that anything that differs from the 350 suggested power level is "non-standard"?

Speaking only for myself, including some lower powered villains in VV&V is a selling point, not a negative. YMMVI agree 100%. Even if a villain character is too puny to go up against the hero individually as built, there's no reason he can't team up with other low-powered villains or suffer a radiation accident to compensate. Even many 350 point games are essentially "street level+" anyway.

[BoloOfEarth]

One of the best villain teams I ever created started out as too-low-powered one-shot wonders. The heroes ran against them individually, beat them handily... and then the Ravager got ahold of the loser villains and upped their power levels to make them a challenge to the heroes. The next time they fought, the heroes were quite shocked. They became a team the players looked forward to facing.

Caveat: I don't own VVV and haven't seen it yet. So this is pretty general.

Another use for otherwise wimpy villains is to take advantage of a hero's Vulnerabilities or Susceptabilities. If PC #1 can beat Buzzsaw with both hands behind his back, but PC #2 gets trounced by him, you've set up a good emnity.

Also, I don't know if anyone else throws news items into their game, but I've used otherwise-unusable characters in news items to flesh out the world.

So they're not *completely* useless, if used in interesting ways.

[Plex]

I'm going to have to get this book now after reading all these posts just to see what everyone is talking about up close and personal. I figure at the very least I'll have a whole book dedicated to a Rogues gallery for each of my players, if they really are underpowered. That would be just way too cool... Art to me doesn't really matter all that much, especially when you look back at the really early books. (1st ed) If I based my buying off that I might not have ever started playing Champions. (I miss the picture of the guy holding his head on all fours after being punched in the face... I always looked at that and winced, thinking wow that had to really hurt.)

[Balabanto]

There is some stuff in this book that I can use, the problem is that some of the stuff I can use just plain doesn't work in my gameworld.

So that means it's basically a sheet. :)

I can write a new background and use the sheet, which is fine, it just means that when I write the background, it should feel good.

[Armitage]

I just got my copy today.

I don't see anything in the Writer's Guidelines, but based on this book and other recent character sourcebooks I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the current character design policy is to not give unusual-looking characters Distinctive Features, instead leaving it to the GM to decide if the character is unusual looking in their specific campaign and add an appropriate Distinctive Features Disadvantage.

Leaving out characters who can assume a normal human form...

Overbrain: Disembodied flying glowing brain.
Ape-Plus: Gun-toting mutant gorilla.
Lynx: Cat-girl.
Mr. Zombie: Rotting corpse.
The Curse: Withered mummy.
Grotesque: Flesh melted off his body.
Leviathan: Micro-Godzilla.
Plague: Covered with lesions and sores.
Python: Green-scaled snake man.
Rictus: Permanent death-like grin.
Syzygy: Robed robot with a featureless spherical head.
Terrayne: Giant rock monster.

Not a single Distinctive Features among them, except the occasional "Mutant" or "Magical Aura". Terrayne is Distinctive because of his elemental magic aura, but not because he's a 2-ton walking rock pile?

I've seen it in other books for a while (Halfjack, anyone?), but it seemed particularly noticeable here.

[Steve Long]

the current character design policy is to not give unusual-looking characters Distinctive Features

As Line Developer I almost never permit Distinctive Features based on odd appearance for a Champions Universe character, and never have. There are too many unusual-looking people around; it's just not that disadvantageous IMO.

[ParagonAlpha]

As Line Developer I almost never permit Distinctive Features based on odd appearance for a Champions Universe character, and never have. There are too many unusual-looking people around; it's just not that disadvantageous IMO.

Hmm I never thought about it in those terms, but that's an awesome policy.

Time to go back adjust a few characters to reflect this.

Rep time!!

[Guzalot]

As Line Developer I almost never permit Distinctive Features based on odd appearance for a Champions Universe character, and never have. There are too many unusual-looking people around; it's just not that disadvantageous IMO.
I can see the logic in that but I have to disagree. A "normal" looking character can do things that a 9' humanoid rock pile can't, such as blend into a crowd and generally be inconspicuous if the situation calls for it. Of course, as line developer I like that you are keeping a consistent policy, but in my campaigns Distinctive Features are in.

[nexus]

I can see the logic in that but I have to disagree. A "normal" looking character can do things that a 9' humanoid rock pile can't, such as blend into a crowd and generally be inconspicuous if the situation calls for it. Of course, as line developer I like that you are keeping a consistent policy, but in my campaigns Distinctive Features are in.

Yeah, unless supers are very common, I think DF has a place and some of them are going to be very disadvantage in role play and any attempts are social interaction. A character with a horrid appearance is going to find it more difficult to interact with "normal" people much of the time. DFs can also drive plots (its much easier to set the character up, hard to claim mistaken ID unless there are allot of walking rock piles or you could be mistaken for someone or something else) and present other minor physical limitations in day to day to life.

[death tribble]

Distinctive features still has its uses if like me you have characters who are
Giant Snails wearing bowler hats who live in metal shells with a howitzer on top;
A giant clothes wearing gun toting Polar Bear;
A giant Purple Worm wearing a suitable sized trenchcoat and hat;
A dwarf sized Dr Destroyer;
A humanoid dragon;
a brown furred, cloven footed, horned man;
An Angel complete with wings, armour and burning halo;
a red skinned, horned, winged female;
a man who is half tank and half man;
a winged dinosaur in gangster get back;
a Beholder with armament to put an Apache helicoptor to shame
a green skinned, hoofed footed, horned hammer wielding woman;

[Dr. MID-Nite]

I'd love to hear some of the background behind THOSE characters. As for the debate, I usually allow distinctive features if it makes the character stand out noticibly in a major way. If you Detect as a mutant and most of humanity doesn't, that warrants a feature. Simply being ugly does not...because many MANY people are ugly..or have scars and what not.

Rob

[Armitage]

The only real problem I have with this concept is consistent application. Past books seem hit-or-miss, although more the older ones than the newer ones.

Grabbing a handful of books, again ignoring characters that can turn human...

Conquerors, Killer and Crooks
Distinctive Features
Istvatha V'han and minions
Fiacho
Durak
Ultrasonique
Binder
Blackstar
Grond
Leech
The Monster
Shadowdragon
Slug

No Distinctive Features
Takofanes and Demon Servitor
Crowns of Krim
Feuermacher
Herculan
Hornet
Morningstar
Nebula
Ogre
Vibron
Shirak
Lemurian Golem


Arcane Adversaries
Distinctive Features
Kapilasa (relevant for possession)
Vulshoth
Angler
Mind Thief
Spawn of Vulshoth
Squrm
Tobias Vandaleur

No Distinctive Features
Golem
Vilsimbra (illusion powers)
Hand of Deizzhorath
Bocal McFarlane


Viper: Coils of the Serpent
Distinctive Features
VIPER Agents
Oculon
Ripper

No Distinctive Features
Boa Constrictor
Diamondback
Halfjack


Demon: Servants of Darkness
Distinctive Features
Luther Black
Herr Doktor Pandemonium
DEMON Brother
DEMON Initiate
Devil Dog

No Distinctive Features
Black Shepherd
Left Hand


Champions Universe: News of the World
Distinctive Features
Slug

No Distinctive Features
Ironclad
Duke Steel
Diamond
Hornet
Bloodrage
Pantera
Valak


Champions Worldwide
Distinctive Features
Obelisque
Turs al-Sh'ab
Joseph Otanga
Katar

No Distinctive Features
Acantilado
Eretsun
A'asifa Rumlia
Living Sphinx
Survalesh
Atoll
Eclipsar
El Tiburon

[BigJackBrass]

A giant clothes wearing gun toting Polar Bear

You need to be playing Star Ace. There's a whole race of those!

[nexus]

The only real problem I have with this concept is consistent application. Past books seem hit-or-miss, although more the older ones than the newer ones.

Grabbing a handful of books, again ignoring characters that can turn human...

Conquerors, Killer and Crooks
Distinctive Features
Istvatha V'han and minions
Fiacho
Durak
Ultrasonique
Binder
Blackstar
Grond
Leech
The Monster
Shadowdragon
Slug

No Distinctive Features
Takofanes and Demon Servitor
Crowns of Krim
Feuermacher
Herculan
Hornet
Morningstar
Nebula
Ogre
Vibron
Shirak
Lemurian Golem


Arcane Adversaries
Distinctive Features
Kapilasa (relevant for possession)
Vulshoth
Angler
Mind Thief
Spawn of Vulshoth
Squrm
Tobias Vandaleur

No Distinctive Features
Golem
Vilsimbra (illusion powers)
Hand of Deizzhorath
Bocal McFarlane


Viper: Coils of the Serpent
Distinctive Features
VIPER Agents
Oculon
Ripper

No Distinctive Features
Boa Constrictor
Diamondback
Halfjack


Demon: Servants of Darkness
Distinctive Features
Luther Black
Herr Doktor Pandemonium
DEMON Brother
DEMON Initiate
Devil Dog

No Distinctive Features
Black Shepherd
Left Hand


Champions Universe: News of the World
Distinctive Features
Slug

No Distinctive Features
Ironclad
Duke Steel
Diamond
Hornet
Bloodrage
Pantera
Valak


Champions Worldwide
Distinctive Features
Obelisque
Turs al-Sh'ab
Joseph Otanga
Katar

No Distinctive Features
Acantilado
Eretsun
A'asifa Rumlia
Living Sphinx
Survalesh
Atoll
Eclipsar
El Tiburon

How many of those are DF strictly for looking strange?

[Armitage]

How many of those are DF strictly for looking strange?

Quoting each Disadvantage below. Some of them do have other DFs as well, but they are separate Disadvantages.

Conquerors, Killer and Crooks
Istvatha V'han and minions: Regal Bearing And Regalia/V'hanian Uniform
Fiacho: Altered Ugly Human
Durak: Smashed Scarred Face
Ultrasonique: Scarred Face
Binder: Facial Scarring
Blackstar: Gray Skin
Grond: Big Ugly Mutated Green Body
Leech: Leech-Man Body
The Monster: Monstrous Visage
Shadowdragon: Dragon tattoo On Chest
Slug: Elder Worm Body

Arcane Adversaries
Kapilasa (relevant for possession): Solid Black Eyes, No Matter What Body
Vulshoth: Giant Sanity-Blasting Monster
Angler: Living Hyper-Dimensional Geometry
Mind Thief: Repulsive Slimy Bug-Thing
Spawn of Vulshoth: Giant Sanity-Blasting Monster
Squrm: Slimy Tentacled Horror
Tobias Vandaleur: Face Of A Toad

Viper: Coils of the Serpent
VIPER Agents: VIPER Uniform
Oculon: Alien Eyes
Ripper: Purplish Flesh, Grafted Armor, Ten Feet Tall

Demon: Servants of Darkness
Luther Black: Visible Corruption of the Qliphotic
Herr Doktor Pandemonium: Der Kehlkopf Strapped To His Face
DEMON Brother: DEMON Robes
DEMON Initiate: DEMON Robes
Devil Dog: DEMON Robes

Champions Universe: News of the World
Slug: Elder Worm Body

Champions Worldwide
Obelisque: Enormous Jet-Black Monster
Turs al-Sh'ab: Badly Scarred
Joseph Otanga: Scarred face and Broken Nose
Katar: Scarred Face

[Spidey88]

I can't verify any of the rest of them on that list of those without Distinctive Features, but Hornet is described as able to change back into a human-looking form, IIRC. He hasn't paid points for it, so I'm assuming it's one of those handwavy-type-things where he could, say, subsume his insectoid looks at will, but it's not an instant change (taking a lot of combat rounds to do so) - and therefore not really more convenient than having a different outfit to change into.

Some of the others might avoid distinctive features for similar reasons.

[Armitage]

I can't verify any of the rest of them on that list of those without Distinctive Features, but Hornet is described as able to change back into a human-looking form.

Some of the others might avoid distinctive features for similar reasons.

Missed that one. I think I eliminated dual-form characters from the rest of the list though.

[ghost-angel]

The usual guideline I use for DF is a line taken from "The Real Cyberpunk Handbook"

Can the police identify you by the piercings/tattoos/rituals scars you have on your body?
If the answers is yes/yes/yes you have a Distinctive Feature.

DF to me usually, but not always, means "Unique Identifier" - like say "Giant Green Skinned Four Armed Person" ... not many of those around y'know.

[Metaphysician]

The usual guideline I use for DF is a line taken from "The Real Cyberpunk Handbook"

Can the police identify you by the piercings/tattoos/rituals scars you have on your body?
If the answers is yes/yes/yes you have a Distinctive Feature.

DF to me usually, but not always, means "Unique Identifier" - like say "Giant Green Skinned Four Armed Person" ... not many of those around y'know.

Using that criteria, though, some characters wouldn't warrant it because the possibility of police catching and arresting them is irrelevant. For example, would the fact that Takofanes is very obviously Takofanes, really matter much to him?

[L.Craig]

recieved mine yesterday, good book, except the artwork is pretty bad. We've beat that issue to death, so besides that the book is good.

[Enforcer84]

Got mine yesterday too. I concur.

[Cardinal]

***Rise from the Grave!!! Awaken foul thread***

OK, with thread necromancy completed, I just wanted to check to see what characters people have actually put to use and what their assessment of the book is with a couple of miles on the odometer.

Any particular favorites? Characters that you thought would be good that disappointed? Characters that you thought would be disappointing that have been pleasantly surprising?

[nexus]

I've used almost all of them or have plans for how they will be used across a couple of campaigns. I found the characters highly inspirational not all solid gold but very useful overall. I do see the issues some people brought up such as some of the character being "One high wonders" that is extremely powerful/deadly if the characters are unprepared or almost powerless if they are but those can be worked around with a little thought and planning. Overall, I found the book to be one more useful purchases I've made for Champions.

[Hermit]

Two of my online GMs have used or are using the Braintrust. Seems to be a popular group.

[FenrisUlf]

Two of my online GMs have used or are using the Braintrust. Seems to be a popular group.

It's got a gorilla, a catgirl, a zombie, a ninja, and a brain in a jug. What's not to like?

[Enforcer84]

That's like the five Geek Food Groups!




Ikeed

[Dr. MID-Nite]

***Rise from the Grave!!! Awaken foul thread***

OK, with thread necromancy completed, I just wanted to check to see what characters people have actually put to use and what their assessment of the book is with a couple of miles on the odometer.

Any particular favorites? Characters that you thought would be good that disappointed? Characters that you thought would be disappointing that have been pleasantly surprising?

I liked Sunburst and his gang....and I thought Plague and Fleshtone lived up to their hype. Some of the characters based on the USPD pics were a bit disappointing and The Tiger Squad still is more or less only superficially covered(though they could honestly have their own sourcebook).

Rob

[lapsedgamer]

I liked Sunburst and his gang....and I thought Plague and Fleshtone lived up to their hype. Some of the characters based on the USPD pics were a bit disappointing and The Tiger Squad still is more or less only superficially covered(though they could honestly have their own sourcebook).

Rob

I wouldn't mind a Champions Worldwide II with more of the Tiger Squad, perhaps the Cult of the Red Banner, and some others.

[bobrunnicles]

I wouldn't mind a Champions Worldwide II with more of the Tiger Squad, perhaps the Cult of the Red Banner, and some others.

I could work with that.....but I'd rather seen an updated Kingdom Of Champions first :)

[FenrisUlf]

I wouldn't mind a Champions Worldwide II with more of the Tiger Squad, perhaps the Cult of the Red Banner, and some others.

Heck, just do a Champions of China.

Of course, if I had my way, we'd be seeing Champions of India, Champions of Mexico*...

* -- Oop, my bad, we're getting Lucha Hero. :D

[lapsedgamer]

Heck, just do a Champions of China.

Of course, if I had my way, we'd be seeing Champions of India, Champions of Mexico*...

* -- Oop, my bad, we're getting Lucha Hero. :D

I think a book like Champions of China would be too restrictive, but I was intrigued by some of the info in Champions Worldwide and could see, and would buy, an expansion.

Barring that, they could do it as continuing updates to the Champions Universe with a new volume every couple of years, building on the success of CU2. There could be more write-ups for NPC Hero Groups and expanded information and write ups for the unpublished material hinted at in the books so far.

[Tom]

So far:

I'm currently using the Brain Trust in a scenario arc (Hermit already commented on that)...

I've used Leviathan (anyone who thinks 8 frenzied sharks in a HtH melee is a good idea -- well, they're not... ;))

Onslaught and Buzzsaw as a combo at least look threatening, but a single 350pt mentalist (t-path/TK combo) managed to take them down -- but he had to think about it to pull it off...

And I've used a tweaked version of Python for an off-the-cuff combat that seemed to at least make the players sweat a little (300pt range teen-ish chars -- yeah, Hermit, guess where I got the stats for Tapper...)

[Cardinal]

I've used Leviathan (anyone who thinks 8 frenzied sharks in a HtH melee is a good idea -- well, they're not... ;))

Is that as in not a good idea for the PC or the GM. ;)

[FenrisUlf]

I think a book like Champions of China would be too restrictive, but I was intrigued by some of the info in Champions Worldwide and could see, and would buy, an expansion.

Baring that, they could do it as continuing updates to the Champions Universe with a new volume every couple of years, building on the success of CU2. There could be more write-ups for NPC Hero Groups and expanded information and write ups for the unpublished material hinted at in the books so far.

I think your idea is better than mine, and deserves more recognition. Rep for you, sir!

[Hermit]

And I've used a tweaked version of Python for an off-the-cuff combat that seemed to at least make the players sweat a little (300pt range teen-ish chars -- yeah, Hermit, guess where I got the stats for Tapper...)

Teen Champions? :think:

[FenrisUlf]

BTW, something I'm curious about.

In one of the plot seeds for Mister Zombie, we're told that when his wife sees him on the evening news, she can 'recognize a likenss to her husband'.

Considering just what he looks like in the character picture, am I the only one who wonders just what he must have looked like alive for her to recognize him? :angst:

[Tom]

Is that as in not a good idea for the PC or the GM. ;)
Well, the PC didn't appreciate it either, but it certainly complicated my life... Leviathan didn't appreciate it much, I was rolling randomly to see who was attacked each phase since I was doing the combat w/o a map. I guess the dice realized he was physically the biggest target...

[Tom]

Teen Champions? :think:
I haven't forgotten your comment about Mole's Mom needing to meet Temblor...:eg: