Autofire: What's the point?

[Elysea]

Is there an advantage to Autofire that I'm not seeing?

You make one attack roll for the entire volley. You hit with one shot for every 2 you make your attack roll by, after the first hit. So basically, when you Autofire, you take a -2 to your OCV for every shot after the first. Against a target with comparable CV, you'll have to roll very well to land more than 3 shots.

So why would someone buy Autofire past the +1/4 value? By the time you're firing 4 shots or more (+1/2 Advantage or more), your chances of hitting your target are slim to none. On top of that, the target gets to apply its defenses against every shot. Taking the points spent on that +1/2 advantage and turning them into more raw dice of damage or buying something like Armor Piercing seems like a much more efficient means of getting damage through to a target.

Versus a target with low DCV and low defenses, I can see the point of throwing three 8d6 EBs instead of one 10d6. Otherwise, Autofire won't help you hit a high DCV martial artist and won't help you CON-stun a high PD/ED brick. So is there a time and a place for Autofire, besides beating up on hapless mentalists?

If OCV and DCV are equal, the chances of hitting a target are roughly 50%. If I Autofire ten shots at someone, my chances of hitting them at all aren't improved -- I still stand a 50% chance of completely missing.

Am I interpreting the rules incorrectly? Is there something I'm not seeing? I apologize if this is a bit of a rant; I really would appreciate it if someone explained to me that I'm wrong and there is something I'm not seeing. :)

[Kristopher]

There are all sorts of other things you can do with an Autofire. If no one else details them before I get home tonight, I'll do it. But I bet someone else will beat me to it.

[MarkusDark]

Combine Autofire with AOE 1 hex and it can get ugly. ;)

As for other uses, I'm not that cheese.... er, creative. ;)

[Elysea]

I can see the point of Autofire with AE or Explosion powers, yes. Or if your OCV is incredibly tremendous enough to to reliably land multiple hits. Is that it though? Does Autofire need other "helper" advantages or abilities to make it worthwhile?

[Elysea]

I just fail to understand why my odds of missing Bruce Lee with one bullet are the same as my odds of missing Bruce Lee when I empty a sub-machine gun at him. :)

You know, other than the fact that Bruce Lee is Bruce Lee. :)

Let me rephrase: I don't understand why my chances of completely missing an oil drum at 20 paces with one bullet are the same as my chances of completely missing an oil drum at 20 paces when I empty a sub-machine gun at it.

There, that's better. :) One should never invoke the name of Bruce Lee when arguing that firearms should be more accurate than they are...

[MarkusDark]

Originally posted by Elysea
I can see the point of Autofire with AE or Explosion powers, yes. Or if your OCV is incredibly tremendous enough to to reliably land multiple hits. Is that it though? Does Autofire need other "helper" advantages or abilities to make it worthwhile?

My knowledge of the rules is slightly limited, but I remember (at least in 4th ed) that there were certain advantages. Such as you can 'spread' your attack without losing any power to the blast. Two targets standing next to each other get two rounds each. As well as there are other powers as mentioned before that if you add Autofire to it makes them a bit more buff as well (dunno what the are though). Even if you hit with only two shots, it could be well worth the advantage to do the damage twice to him. I am also trying to remember if Autofire adds to Knockback or not.

[Chris Goodwin]

Prior to 4th edition, Autofire defaulted to 10 shots, and gave you +4 OCV for 10 or +2 OCV for 5.

Aside from that, you use Autofire to simulate weapons that, in the source, shoot multiple projectiles with one pull of the trigger.

[Killer Shrike]

The main advantage to Autofire is vs multiple opponents. The penalty is much less severe to hit several people standing right next to each other. Its good for dropping goons.

It used to be nasty in combination with other advantages, like Penetrating, NND, AoE: 1 Hex, or when applied to unusual attack powers but the new rule doubling the cost of Reduced Endurance for an Autofire attack and requiring an additional +1 advantage if the attack is not vs PD or ED or doesnt need to make a normal Attack Roll (which includes all AoE attacks) nerfs that right out of the gate.

So in 5th, its good vs goons and low-DCV opponents and not so good vs individual opponents of equivalent ability.

[RadeFox]

Aye, Autofire can be used to hose many targets at once using a sort of ranged sweep. Yes, you do need to have a really good OCV for autofire to be at its best, but as for supers shooting at agents, it should be no problem for the average super to clear one or two agents an action with a decent autofire attack.

Second, your issue of hitting a martial artist with autofire is a best/worst type of scenario. Martial artists are ALL about NOT getting hit, with prolly some of the best DCV's in the game usually. Autofire isnt the best attack to use on them, unless, as posted above, it is with a 1 hex aoe mod. Heehee, keep jumping pajama boy!!

Auto-fire is for whittling a bricks stun down, especially if hes at a DCV penalty, or for use agaisnt normals and agents. Another good use, is quickly chewing through a barrier or entangle, they have 0 DCV, so get blown to itty bitty pieces pretty quick.

[JMHammer]

Well, when building a weapon this can be represented by purchasing levels for the weapon. I'm really not sure how to do this but it ought to depend on the weapon. A weapon with a hard recoil might not give you any more chance to hit with a 5-shot burst than you'd have with a 1-shot burst, although it would be scarier for the target. On the other hand, a recoilless weapon like a laser rifle should benefit in a big way for each shot fired.

Maybe add this to a typical weapon:

+1 OCV, linked to Autofire, must fire at least a two-shot burst at a single target
+1 OCV, linked to Autofire, must fire at least a four-shot burst at a single target
+1 OCV, linked to Autofire, must fire at least an eight-shot burst at a single target
...etc, with the number of shots in the burst doubling with each successive +1 OCV. Each successive OCV level should cost less because each one relies on a greater amount of ammo being expended.

Actual cost of these levels would depend on the exact nature of the weapon (OIF, OAF, other factors).

I suppose one could allow those OCV levels to apply against individual targets when attacking multiple targets with a single burst of autofire, but the attacker must allocate the number of shots he is applying to each of the targets, gets bonuses above the usual multi-target autofire penalties only for those targets which are the subject of more than one shot, but can still hit each target only once.

And yes, I agree that any untrained shmoe picking up a tommy gun can probably grease someone - at least at close range - a lot easier than if he picks up an M-1 Garand.

John H

[Pattern Ghost]

Why would you want to give OCV bonuses to an autofire weapon? Against a single target, chances to hit decrease after the first round due to the shots stringing out. So, the OCV bonus wouldn't work to model RL AF weapons all that accurately.

Autofire is good for busting crowds of people up, clearing rooms, etc. It's best for close-in work.

[JohnTaber]

Hi Pattern Ghost: I don't agree. If I shoot 10 rounds at someone my chances of hitting them are higher than if I just shoot 1 round.

Saying that I STILL use the 4th edition OCV benefits. I do NOT find them unbalancing at all.
3 shots +0 OCV
5 shots +2 OCV
10 shots or more +4 OCV

The three shots option lets you hit the person multiple times so at least that is something but arguable it should give at least +1 OCV...

Just my take... :)

[Gary]

Average number of hits with a +/- OCV vs DCV autofire:

One shot Three shots Five shots 10 shots
-8 0.005 0.005 0.005 0.005
-7 0.019 0.019 0.019 0.019
-6 0.046 0.051 0.051 0.051
-5 0.093 0.111 0.111 0.111
-4 0.162 0.213 0.213 0.213
-3 0.259 0.370 0.370 0.370
-2 0.375 0.583 0.588 0.588
-1 0.500 0.852 0.870 0.870
+0 0.625 1.162 1.213 1.213
+1 0.741 1.500 1.611 1.611
+2 0.838 1.838 2.046 2.051
+3 0.907 2.148 2.500 2.519
+4 0.954 2.417 2.954 3.005
+5 0.981 2.630 3.389 3.500
+6 0.995 2.787 3.787 4.000
+7 0.995 2.884 4.125 4.495

Anybody know how to format this properly?

[Snarf]

Originally posted by Elysea
[B]Let me rephrase: I don't understand why my chances of completely missing an oil drum at 20 paces with one bullet are the same as my chances of completely missing an oil drum at 20 paces when I empty a sub-machine gun at it.
Maybe it's now supposed to simulate adventure fiction instead of reality. It's common to see some movie where a dozen machine guns are unloaded without effect. Machine guns end up being about as accurate as pistols, except when it comes to wiping out a horde of nameless stuntmen.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Gary
Anybody know how to format this properly? Average number of hits with a +/- OCV vs DCV autofire:
<table border=1><tr><th>OCV vs DCV</th><th>One shot</th><th>Three shots</th><th>Five shots</th><th>10 shots</th></tr><tr><td>-8</td><td>0.005</td><td>0.005</td><td>0.005</td><td>0.005</td></tr><tr><td>-7</td><td>0.019</td><td>0.019</td><td>0.019</td><td>0.019</td></tr><tr><td>-6</td><td>0.046</td><td>0.051</td><td>0.051</td><td>0.051</td></tr><tr><td>-5</td><td>0.093</td><td>0.111</td><td>0.111</td><td>0.111</td></tr><tr><td>-4</td><td>0.162</td><td>0.213</td><td>0.213</td><td>0.213</td></tr><tr><td>-3</td><td>0.259</td><td>0.370</td><td>0.370</td><td>0.370</td></tr><tr><td>-2</td><td>0.375</td><td>0.583</td><td>0.588</td><td>0.588</td></tr><tr><td>-1</td><td>0.500</td><td>0.852</td><td>0.870</td><td>0.870 </td></tr><tr><td>+0</td><td>0.625</td><td>1.162</td><td>1.213</td><td>1.213</td></tr><tr><td>+1</td><td>0.741</td><td>1.500</td><td>1.611</td><td>1.611</td></tr><tr><td>+2</td><td>0.838</td><td>1.838</td><td>2.046</td><td>2.051</td></tr><tr><td>+3</td><td>0.907</td><td>2.148</td><td>2.500</td><td>2.519</td></tr><tr><td>+4</td><td>0.954</td><td>2.417</td><td>2.954</td><td>3.005</td></tr><tr><td>+5</td><td>0.981</td><td>2.630</td><td>3.389</td><td>3.500</td></tr><tr><td>+6</td><td>0.995</td><td>2.787</td><td>3.787</td><td>4.000</td></tr><tr><td>+7</td><td>0.995</td><td>2.884</td><td>4.125</td><td>4.495</td></tr></table>

[Lord Liaden]

IMHO the most generally useful level of Advantage for Autofire is +1/4, granting 2-3 shots per Phase. You don't lose too much in the way in power via reduction in damage dice, and your chances of multiple hits are pretty good. At higher levels the attack is more useful as a specialized attack vs. low-DCV, low-Defense targets such as agents, although it is true that Autofire "cheeses up" faster than any other Advantage when combined with the likes of Penetrating, NND etc.

However, don't forget that there other options available to make Autofire far more effective without additional Advantages. Consider the optional Suppression Fire combat maneuver (FREd p. 263): you can "hose down" an area with shots so that anyone entering it is automatically hit no matter what their DCV is. Then there are the additional Autofire Skills on p. 33 (with accompanying sidebar descriptions on p. 34): buying one or two of those will definitely enhance the effect of any Autofire attacks. "Rapid Autofire" Skill can whittle down an opponent remarkably quickly, while "Accurate Sprayfire" can make you very effective against multiple opponents, and a holy terror vs. agents.

[Tom]

Originally posted by JohnTaber
Hi Pattern Ghost: I don't agree. If I shoot 10 rounds at someone my chances of hitting them are higher than if I just shoot 1 round.



With an unstabalized autofire weapon, no.

Automatic weapons fire faster than the user can recover from the recoil. Only the first shot is actually aimed. Every other round goes where ever the barrel happens to be pointed at the time...

Granted this is real life, and fiction tends to work more, dramatically...

Incidentally, there is a reason the military changed from the 'full auto' of the M16A1 to the '3 round burst' of the M16A2. It was a waste of ammo...

[Killer Shrike]

Not only was it a waste of ammo, but friendly fire casualties were higher, and the overall ratio of shots fired to enemy casualties was lower.


There is also a difference between burst fire and rapid fire in real life, and the Rapid Fire combat option is always a consideration for non-Autofire attacks IIRC.

[Keneton]

Advantages of Autofire. . .

Anyone that Played Unearthed Mechana and faced Speed Pounder and or Sly Fortune knows the advantage of Autofire!

Remember just becuase you can shoot 5 or 10 times doesnt mean you have to, but when you land a good one you will understand!

:)

[Vondy]

Lay down supressing fire! Lay down supressing fire!

You'd be amazed at what a few agents can accomplish with this rule.

[Pattern Ghost]

Tom made my point.

Except that 3 shot burst is utterly useless b/c it can't be used for supressing fire or for clearing rooms, and the second and third shots still have the recoil problem. When I was in Berlin, we had to maintain a rack full of A-1's for our personal security detail guys b/c they absolutely had to have full auto (busting crowds) for their mission. Of course, we field guys did, too, as we were supposed to be training for urban combat.

The autofire rules for supressing fire, etc., and the OCV penalties do a pretty fair job of simulating the advantages and drawbacks of autofire.

[Pattern Ghost]

I should point out, too, that the recoil problem is greatly amplified at range. At very close range, a fraction of an inch of the muzzel being out of alignment doesn't translate to much, but over distance, it adds up fast.

Now, an M-60 on a bipod or tripod...different story. M-2 (50 cal), even better. But it's the stabilization that makes the difference.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost
I should point out, too, that the recoil problem is greatly amplified at range. At very close range, a fraction of an inch of the muzzel being out of alignment doesn't translate to much, but over distance, it adds up fast.

Now, an M-60 on a bipod or tripod...different story. M-2 (50 cal), even better. But it's the stabilization that makes the difference. Gimme a Ma Duece any day. Hoo-rah! ;)

[Fur Face]

In 4th edition is was people who were skilled with autofire weapons that were really scar, because they would buy 5 pt combat skill levels then take the limitation "only to counteract autofire penalties (-1)". At this rate 10 points would guarantee that your shots first three shots are going to be very effective, which is a very accurate short burst.

But, outside of reasons others have already posted, like hitting multiple opponents, I wouldn't buy autofire over 1-3, just because of the statistics.

Right now you can do nearly the same thing with the new Sweep maneuver, you just take a DCV penalty. Autofire doesn't require a DCV penalty, so you'd probably be better off with autofire if you have a low CV.

[Heroman]

Can you use PSLs vs Autofire OCV mods? If so, this could help reflect extremely accurate autofire weapons.

-Heroman

[NuSoardGraphite]

I see where you are comming from Elysea, but Autofire can be very usefull if you don't worry so much about the mathematical aspects of it.

The most obvious advantage is vs. multiple opponents. As others have stated here, a normal (non-autofire) Energy Blast (or other attack) can be spread to hit multiple opponents, but they lose damage dice to do so. Autofire attacks can hit multiple opponents without losing any damage whatsoever. The trade off between the two is that spreading an Energy Blast is just as accurate as using your EB against a single target, but Autofire is at -1 per hex spread to.

The second advantage to Autofire is the ability to hit a single opponent, multiple times. As you stated, the reduced OCV per additional shot after the first reduces the effectiveness of this sort of attack, and it is rare for more than 3 hits to occur (most often it is only 1 or 2 hits) when the CV's are fairly comparable. However, when you get a character who has a hefty OCV advantage over his opponents DCV (3 or more points higher) the effects can be downright devastating

A character with a 14 or less chance to hit will, 50% of the time hit at least 3 times. Hitting 4 times is still feasable (26% or so) and 5 hits is not unheard of.

A character with a 16 or less chance to hit is practically garunteed at least 2 hits. 3 is easy and a 50% chance of achieving 4 hits.

As you can see, the higher one's OCV, the more effective an Autofire attack will be. Thus there is often a trade off of inherent damage (the damage of an Autofire attack doesn't need to be that high, as multiple hits will add up) for increased accuracy (instead of purchasing an 8D6 Autofire-5 attack for 60 points, its probably better to buy a 6D6 Autifire-5 attack for 45 points and buy +5 OCV bonus to the attack with the remaining points!)

Third and most important advantage to Autofire:

DON'T FORGET TO PURCHASE AUTOFIRE SKILLS!!!!

These "skills" will make using Autofire far superior to spreading. Most especially Concentrated Sprayfire and Accurate Sprayfire. A combination of these two are positively devastating against low level agents.

Remeber these three points:

Autofire damage doesn't have to be that high to be effective: Certainly you won't do much body damage against characters with high defenses, but the Stun adds up in a hurry.

High OCV is king:
The points you save in slightly reducing the damage of such attacks can go toward increasing the number of rounds that hit in each "burst". In fact, you can use the 2 point +1OCV bonus category to increase your OCV with a single specific Autofire attack immensely. Don't go overboard though, as that will annoy your GM. Saving a measly 10 points can translate into a +5 OCV bonus which translates into (at least) 2.5 additional hits in the Burst!

Don't forget your Autofire Skills:
I cannot stress these enough. Re-read these skills in your 5E rulesbook to familiarize yourself with them. They make Autofire more than worth the increase in cost for any attack power...

[Killer Shrike]

Hey, NuSoardGraphite, are you coming back to San Diego soon?

[pinecone]

Auto-fire is a usefull but not dominate power...just like it should be,it is only gruesome against Damage reduction weasals...ie: "well you take 4 body,halve that to 2 body,Ummm 4 times...dude you look pale" As noted auto fire is best when comboed up with other stuff like levels with ranged combat/"my gun" and both AP and Pen are terrifiying with an accurate autofire attack. My "Vigilante" character carrys a 2D6 RKA AP Autofire 0 END machine gun and mows down supers as easaly as criminals,without Hardened this this is brutal! But that character is built to be a gun fighter...

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Fur Face
In 4th edition is was people who were skilled with autofire weapons that were really scar, because they would buy 5 pt combat skill levels then take the limitation "only to counteract autofire penalties (-1)". At this rate 10 points would guarantee that your shots first three shots are going to be very effective, which is a very accurate short burst.

But, outside of reasons others have already posted, like hitting multiple opponents, I wouldn't buy autofire over 1-3, just because of the statistics.

Right now you can do nearly the same thing with the new Sweep maneuver, you just take a DCV penalty. Autofire doesn't require a DCV penalty, so you'd probably be better off with autofire if you have a low CV. You can't do supression fire with sweep. However, if you aren't worried about that kind of combat maneuver: DCV levels to compensate for sweeping. eewwww - now that's min-maxing

[NuSoardGraphite]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Hey, NuSoardGraphite, are you coming back to San Diego soon?

Eventually.

Definitely before the year is over.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by NuSoardGraphite
Eventually.

Definitely before the year is over.

Well, look me up when you get back. Maybe we could do some cross-overs or something. Or if your old group is unavailable maybe we can make space for you in our group ;)

[Hugh Neilson]

1d6 RKA, Armor Piercing Penetrating Autofire (back in the +4 OCV/10 shots) days. It was supposed to be a backup weapon sidearm. It was a Brick Destructor.

OCV 18 vs DCV 3 for Huge Brick w/ Growth al on meant 5 hits on a 17 - just stay out of his reach and he'll be dead in a few phases (if the charges hold out).

There's a power that got modified FAST - Penetrating had just been added to the rules, and we didn't realize its impact until too late...

[Killer Shrike]

Hugh: Preface with "This is not an attack, just a question" :)

Im still curious why anyone would ever take AP and Penetrating both on an attack. This is a construct that Ive seen pop up several times over the last 13 years of HEROs gaming and Ive never understood why any one would ever think it efficient. They are mutually exclusive -- either you halve thier defenses or you dont get thru thier defenses at all and Penetrating kicks in. Better to have AP x2 or Penetrating x2 to insure you defeat Hardened defenses, or some other +1/2 advantage, or more dice.

Any insight?:confused:

[VictorVonDoom]

The point of autofiring is simple:

Even I can comprehend it although i am not a regular gamer; I only want to understand what i am reading...
Autofire is simple: you shoot a series of burst on your ennemie; Instead of one shot the ennemie is hit by several shots. They can be deflected or bounce of shields, ....
You know the movie "Escape from Athena": Telly sevelas gives a guy a gun and says you pull the trigger and squeeze one time only one time and do "TATA and not TATATATA" ; the TATATATA part is autofire...(why did he say that because the gun was prone to overheating?) In some games you called it Bursts (several times firing emptying a clip; with one shot you can't empty a clip only if there is one shot in)
Suppose your uzi has 6 charges in it; With TATATATA (burst or autofire) you shoot several times firing 5 shots after that shot you only do TATA '(one shot)
I am a simple guy so i give a simple explication

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Hugh: Preface with "This is not an attack, just a question" :)

Im still curious why anyone would ever take AP and Penetrating both on an attack. This is a construct that Ive seen pop up several times over the last 13 years of HEROs gaming and Ive never understood why any one would ever think it efficient. They are mutually exclusive -- either you halve thier defenses or you dont get thru thier defenses at all and Penetrating kicks in. Better to have AP x2 or Penetrating x2 to insure you defeat Hardened defenses, or some other +1/2 advantage, or more dice.

Any insight?:confused:

This construct is particularly useful with a Killing Attack vs. Resistant Defenses, because Penetrating applies to the Body damage done by a KA. It's possible to halve defenses with an Armor Piercing attack so that Stun damage gets through, but no Body; with these two Advantages together some Body will get through as well, unless the AP Adv. reduced defense enough that more body would get through than Penetrating would account for.

Also, under the 4E definition of Hardening (as clarified by Steve Peterson) one level of Hardened would stop one level of AP and one level of Pen. regardless of whether they were used together or not. Under 5E one level of Hardened will stop only one of those Advantages at a time when they're used together - the player gets to decide which one at the time he purchases Hardened. So using them together covers both your bases. :cool:

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
This construct is particularly useful with a Killing Attack vs. Resistant Defenses, because Penetrating applies to the Body damage done by a KA. It's possible to halve defenses with an Armor Piercing attack so that Stun damage gets through, but no Body; with these two Advantages together some Body will get through as well, unless the AP Adv. reduced defense enough that more body would get through than Penetrating would account for.

Also, under the 4E definition of Hardening (as clarified by Steve Peterson) one level of Hardened would stop one level of AP and one level of Pen. regardless of whether they were used together or not. Under 5E one level of Hardened will stop only one of those Advantages at a time when they're used together - the player gets to decide which one at the time he purchases Hardened. So using them together covers both your bases. :cool: Yes, I understand the effect, but it still does not strike me as efficient. I would rather go double AP or double penetrating, depending on the number of dice involved and circumvent Hardened altogether. Also, its hard to argue with simply going with more dice to surpass defenses, or Variable Advantage (+1; any 1/2 of Advantages) and tuning the attack as needed.

Granted, I had forgotten that 5th ed nerfs Hardened, so it does make it more viable in 5th. :)

[VictorVonDoom]

If you add AP & autofire as advances that you can penetrate the defences of someone

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom
If you add AP & autofire as advances that you can penetrate the defences of someone Im not talking about AP & Autofire; Im talking about AP and Penetrating.

[VictorVonDoom]

i was not discussing that . I simple gave an idea...

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Yes, I understand the effect, but it still does not strike me as efficient. I would rather go double AP or double penetrating, depending on the number of dice involved and circumvent Hardened altogether. Also, its hard to argue with simply going with more dice to surpass defenses, or Variable Advantage (+1; any 1/2 of Advantages) and tuning the attack as needed.

Granted, I had forgotten that 5th ed nerfs Hardened, so it does make it more viable in 5th. :)

Prior to 4th Ed, AP Penetrating vs 1 level of Hardened meant AP was lost but penetrating got through (at least that was the rule when penetrating first came in). Generally, I've only seen AP Penetrating on KA's, as another poster notes above, to ensure some BOD gets through.

In the specific example, it was (IIRC) a 1d6+1 autofire penetrating KA with a horrendous number of charges through an OAF sidearm. Adding the "penetrating" cost 5 points (20 base points, half that for the advantage, halved again due to the focus) so it was a pretty cheap addition. And, of course, penetrating was brand new, so it was as much a "let's see how this new toy works" decision as anything else. The way it worked, however, was to strip away 5+ BOD on a typical attack. On a well-nigh invulnerable, but easy to hit, opponent, I'm pretty suire he managed 10+ BOD in one shot at least once.