New to the hero system, trying to figure out some things

[Doczed]

Edit note: everything presented and asked in this first post of the topic has been discussed, and i thank everyone for the contribution, if you still want the help a noob please take a look later posts


Hi at evryone here, as in the topic i am new to the hero system (but hardcore roleplayer) adn i'm trying to figure out many things, toying with character concepts and powers. One of the first thing i noticed is that some powers with modifiers and limitations seems.. well devastating, so i'm hopinh i did something wrong, while creating them

a brief example, a flechettes-firing hand-minigun:

Energy Blast
0d6
+1 pip
Standard effect (1 Body 1 Stun)
Autofire 5 x256 (1.280)
Penetrating x4
OIF
No knockback
Only in heroic identity
Real weapon
Charges (16.000)

Active Points: 17
Real cost: 7

Now is this power going to dish out up to 1280 Body 1280 Stun each round if the target is not at least Hardened x4?

Anoter (less broken) example:
Continuos beam wich increase in strenght each round:

Energy blast
15d6
Armor piercing
No range modifier
0 END
Continuous
OIF
Beam
No knockback
Only in heroic identity
Real weapon

Active Points: 262
Real cost: 105

This power should be able to deal 15d6 round 1, 30d6 round 2, 45d6 round 3 etc.

As i mentioned earlier both seems unbalancing (#1 screams broken), so i hope that my inexperience had me ignore some obvious thing, and some rules different from "GM denial" says this cannot be done.

Thanks for your time

[SableWyvern]

If you're playing a game that allows powers with 262 Active Points as standard, then I dare say you're looking at a run of the mill power with your second example -- although I'm not sure the game would be terribly manageable at that kind of power level.

For the first, it looks legit to my inexperiened eye, and yes, you need to rely on "GM denial". The freedom you are given with HERO places a burden on the GM (and players) to look at context and apply limits based on that context.

[rjcurrie]

I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed if you're looking for rules other than "GM denial" to limit powers. The problem with too many explicit rules on what is allowed and not allowed is that they can eliminate valid concepts.

The best way to look at the Hero System is that it is a "modelling system" in that you first know the concept of the power you are trying to build and then use the Hero System rules to model that power.

With that being said, the Hero rules themselves offer some advice on handling such things through things like Active Point caps (for example, no more than 60 Active Points in a single power).

[Super Squirrel]

Hi at evryone here, as in the topic i am new to the hero system (but hardcore roleplayer) adn i'm trying to figure out many things, toying with character concepts and powers. One of the first thing i noticed is that some powers with modifiers and limitations seems.. well devastating, so i'm hopinh i did something wrong, while creating them

a brief example, a flechettes-firing hand-minigun:

Energy Blast
0d6
+1 pip
Standard effect (1 Body 1 Stun)
Autofire 5 x256 (1.280)
Penetrating x4
OIF
No knockback
Only in heroic identity
Real weapon
Charges (16.000)

Active Points: 17
Real cost: 7

Now is this power going to dish out up to 1280 Body 1280 Stun each round if the target is not at least Hardened x4?

Anoter (less broken) example:
Continuos beam wich increase in strenght each round:

Energy blast
15d6
Armor piercing
No range modifier
0 END
Continuous
OIF
Beam
No knockback
Only in heroic identity
Real weapon

Active Points: 262
Real cost: 105

This power should be able to deal 15d6 round 1, 30d6 round 2, 45d6 round 3 etc.

As i mentioned earlier both seems unbalancing (#1 screams broken), so i hope that my inexperience had me ignore some obvious thing, and some rules different from "GM denial" says this cannot be done.

Thanks for your time

5th Revised pg. 346
When you use an autofire maneuver, you make 1 attack roll. For every 2 points you make your attack by, you get another hit. Now I'm not quite sure how you have Autofire setup in that first example but to hit 256 times with Autofire in one phase, you would have to beat the DCV of the target by 254. So it isn't going to work. :)

[Lucius]

5th Revised pg. 346
When you use an autofire maneuver, you make 1 attack roll. For every 2 points you make your attack by, you get another hit. Now I'm not quite sure how you have Autofire setup in that first example but to hit 256 times with Autofire in one phase, you would have to beat the DCV of the target by 254. So it isn't going to work. :)

He could buy 254 levels.

Lucius Alexander

Buying 254 palindromedaries

[Steve Long]

I don't want to get too involved in this fan discussion, but in addition to someone pointing out the fallacy of hitting that much with the Autofire example given, you're misinterpreting the rules for making an Energy Blast (or similar attack) Continuous. It doesn't do 15d6 one Phase, 30d6 the next, etc. -- the attacks don't add. You just keep doing 15d6 every Phase. Continuous makes the effect keep applying again and again, it doesn't make it add together.

[AmadanNaBriona]

On the first power...

IIRC, Penetrating, when applied to Normal Damage attacks (like EB), allows 1 STUN to penetrate Defenses for every Body rolled on the dice, so a "1 pip" EB (itself of very questionable legality as mentioned) wouldn't actually penetrate anything past defenses, except by GM's fiat.


And SS & Lucius...

I think you forgot to double your numbers... 1 extra hit for every 2 the roll is made by... to rack up 256 hits you'd have to make the attack roll by, letsee...
exact target number gets the first hit, then to get the additional 255, you'd need to beat the targets DCV by 510 on 3d6. Tough to do. 510 2 point OCV levels would cost a lot more than the power itself ;)


Anyway, welcome to the system DocZed... now stop trying to break it :ugly:

[gojira]

Welcome Valkyrie ... er, Doczed!

Yeah, the one thing you will actually run up against is the Active Points rule. Most campaigns have active point limits. It's in 5th Revised on page 28. Heroic campaigns have an Active Point limit of around 50, Superheroes around 75.

When you calculate Active Points, you count the Advantages, not the Limitations. It's Active Points, not Real Points. So an attack or power that costs 50 points, and has +4 worth of advantages, has 250 Active Points, regardless of how many Limitations it has.

Never the less, there are ways to abuse the rules. The only real safeguard is for the GM to wad up the abusive character sheet, pitch it in the trash and say "start over." It isn't possible for the rules to cover everything, and a build that would be clearly abusive in one campaign might be reasonable in another. GMs and players just have to be mature about the way they approach the game. One can munchkin anything, and it's a good deal easier to do in a point system.

[Lord Liaden]

Welcome to the community, Doczed! Glad you decided to look into the HERO System; if you like flexibility and multi-genre coverage, I don't think you'll be disappointed. As you can see there's no lack of helpful folks here ready to assist newcomers. :)


Yeah, the one thing you will actually run up against is the Active Points rule. Most campaigns have active point limits. It's in 5th Revised on page 28. Heroic campaigns have an Active Point limit of around 50, Superheroes around 75.

Of course the Active Point limit for either Heroic or Superheroic campaigns may be higher or lower than those depending on the power level the GM and players want to run, as per those selfsame rulebook guidelines. However, Active Points aren't always the best guideline for restricting abuse. Many GMs prefer to set "Damage Class" caps for attacks. DC in this case refers to the Active Points of an attack Power plus the Advantages that directly affect how a target takes damage. You divide those Active Points by 5 to get the Damage Class, since HERO uses 5 AP/1 DC.

For example, a 12d6 Energy Blast (60 Active Points) is Damage Class 12. Making it Armor Piercing (+1/2 Advantage) raises it to 90 AP and DC 18. However, while a +1/2 Reduced Endurance Advantage also brings the Power to 90 AP, its DC is still only 12 because Reduced END doesn't change how the attack affects the target.

With HERO it's not hard to create abusive Power and Modifier combos if you're determined to munchkinize. ;) While the rulebook often gives warning of potential abuses (most notably with the "Yield" and "Stop" signs that appear next to some abilities' listings), as my colleagues above have noted it's ultimately left to the GM to rule on what combos are acceptable or not in his campaign. Since you're just starting out it would probably be best to follow the default rules and guidelines in the rulebook, and to avoid more complicated builds until you become more familiar with the ruleset. Then again you can always come back here and ask for advice. :angel:

As corollary to that, I do have to point out that your understanding of the system, and how various elements of it interact, is still a little off. As has been pointed out for Autofire, Penetrating and Continuous, you'll find when you examine them more closely that most of the Advantages and Limitations you cite have built-in balancing factors that help rein in some of the worst potential abuses. That's another reason to keep from making constructs that are too complicated until you have a clearer grasp of their synergy. Mind you, that still leaves you tremendous room to customize stuff to your liking; but with more experience you may eventually join the ranks of some of our community's more prestigious munchkins, who enjoy minimaxing HERO for the sheer intellectual challenge. :eg:

And again, feel free to post whenever you want out input. :yes:

[Doczed]

First of all i want to thank everyone for the help.

About power #1, i must admit i didn't read autofire carefully enough, didn't notice the penality was cumulative

About Power #2, i says 15-30-45d6 but i was meaning 15, 15+15, 15+15+15, using the blast again each round. Still i totally forgot about the AP limitation (wich should be 75-125 in the superheroistic campaing i'll probably play in.

Now, i have some other questions:

I want to create some technological energy claws/blades, so the base is a HKA on ED, then i make it penetrating x2, give an O(A/I)F, -2 decreased STUN and no knockback. Now i need it to drain ENd from it's own power source (an END reserve), but here come the hard part, i want it to drain END on a time basis instead of draining each hit (so something like 5 END /minute), how i can accomplish it? Fuel?
Also i'd like to get 2x claws/blade to use them with 2WF, ineed to get 2 identical powers? I noticed a 'quantity' field in the powers but i had found no clue about its function.

[Blue Jogger]

Hmm... There's many ways to do this in Hero.

For the first example, you can buy the power with a fuel charge. This will give the power of one charge of a time duration that can be used as needed. This is frequently used for jet packs and the like which use energy based on how long they are used rather than how many times.

To have two weapons, you can buy the second one for 5 points (no limitations). Combine that with Two Weapon Fighting for another 10 points and you're good to go. The GM might limit the dice on that weapon since you get to attack twice for 15 points. On the other hand, you will be surprised how often you need a free hand during combat.

[Susano]

About Power #2, i says 15-30-45d6 but i was meaning 15, 15+15, 15+15+15, using the blast again each round. Still i totally forgot about the AP limitation (wich should be 75-125 in the superheroistic campaing i'll probably play in.

I'll point out that a 15d6 EB Continuous is 90 Active Points, or 9 END. By Phase 3 you're paying 27 END a Phase to do this. You've also spent 27 END by this point as well. Not many supers have more than 60 END on average, so you're almost totally spent by this point.

[Doczed]

I'll point out that a 15d6 EB Continuous is 90 Active Points, or 9 END. By Phase 3 you're paying 27 END a Phase to do this. You've also spent 27 END by this point as well. Not many supers have more than 60 END on average, so you're almost totally spent by this point.

Tat was the reason for 0 END

[Hugh Neilson]

No question that the system allows unbalanced builds. However:


a brief example, a flechettes-firing hand-minigun:

Energy Blast
0d6
+1 pip
Standard effect (1 Body 1 Stun)
Autofire 5 x256 (1.280)
Penetrating x4
OIF
No knockback
Only in heroic identity
Real weapon
Charges (16.000)

Active Points: 17
Real cost: 7

First off, there's no rule allowing you to purchase 1 pip of EB. Uf you did, it would only do STUN, no BOD. Second, as noted below, Autofire gets one hit, plus one for every 2 points you hit by, so you don't get 1,280 hits. Most shots will miss. Third, mixing Focus and OIHID is generally not permitted. Fourth, since it can't do BOD, it can't do knockback, so No Knockback is not a legitimate limitation. Finally, I would not allow "real weapon" on a weapon so obviously unreal.

Finally, there is the Great Unbalanced Power Equalizer - peer pressure. If I allow this weapon, I have to allow the same concept to other players, and to NPC's. Build something too effective, and soon it's being used against you. Or we could agree that the construct is not allowed in our game.


Energy blast
15d6
Armor piercing
No range modifier
0 END
Continuous
OIF
Beam
No knockback
Only in heroic identity
Real weapon

Active Points: 262
Real cost: 105

Same issue with stacking OIF and OIHID, and it doesn't look very real to me.


This power should be able to deal 15d6 round 1, 30d6 round 2, 45d6 round 3 etc.

No, it does 15d6 in the phase it hits, and another 15d6 attack each phase thereafter. All Continuous does is allow you to keep hitting each phase without rolling to hit again.

If you fire it again at the same target, it does two 15d6 attacks, not a single 30d6 attack. In other words, the target's defenses apply separately against each 15d6 attack.

Note that, if your character can have this weapon, he's likely to be facing off against opponents with 40 - 50d6 Energy Blasts on a fairly regular basis - that's 200 to 250 active points.

[Trebuchet]

Tat was the reason for 0 ENDI know you're just trying to figure out the new game system, but speaking as a longtime GM any new player producing a character with such an overwhelmingly effective attack by mass stacking of Advantages absolutely screams Power Gamer! Such a player would not be welcome in most campaigns IME. I'm not saying that's the case with you, just giving you a heads up on how this sort of thing is often seen by potential gamemasters and fellow players.

While the GM is ultimately responsible for what he or she permits in his game, the players have also an obligation to apply a modicum of self-restraint themselves. It's relatively easy to build a well-nigh unstoppable attack, but it's not really a lot of fun in the long term to play a character with one nor be in a group with a player having that mindset.

Welcome to Hero, by the way. :)

[Nekkidcarpenter]

I want to create some technological energy claws/blades, so the base is a HKA on ED, then i make it penetrating x2, give an O(A/I)F, -2 decreased STUN and no knockback. Now i need it to drain ENd from it's own power source (an END reserve), but here come the hard part, i want it to drain END on a time basis instead of draining each hit (so something like 5 END /minute), how i can accomplish it? Fuel?
Also i'd like to get 2x claws/blade to use them with 2WF, ineed to get 2 identical powers? I noticed a 'quantity' field in the powers but i had found no clue about its function.

I'm not sure why you want it to drain from a source in the way that you want, but if it's only going to cost 1 End/turn you probably just want to buy it to 0 End with a limitation on the total amount of time you can use it per day, or buy continuing charges.

When I want to attack with multiple blades I usually just say it's by fx and buy Reduced penetration and requires 2 weapons as limitations.

[ghost-angel]

I haven't played Champs for a while but I believe only killing attacks can use the 1 pip rule [unless you meant killing attack but wrote energy blast]. The penetrating will be useless for body as killing attack body can't penetrate 1 pip. You'd need a roll of 2-5 on 1d6 to get 1 body to penetrate.

5ER p266 "Penetrating"
"A 1-point Killing Attack does 1 Body Penetrating."

Beyond that, if he meant Energy Blast then Penetrating only applies to the STUN.
It is also occasionally acceptable to purchase 1-pip Energy Blast for 2pts. This is an extension of the Extended STR Damage where 2STR = 1 pip, 3STR = 1/2D6, 5STR=1D6, 7STR = D6 + 1... and so on. It is not standard however, I've been in one game where it was allowed.

[JmOz]

For what it is worth, IMG I would not allow the 1 point penetrating KA, a 1/2 KA has a 4-6 of doing one pen (Again IMG)

[Hugh Neilson]

For what it is worth, IMG I would not allow the 1 point penetrating KA, a 1/2 KA has a 4-6 of doing one pen (Again IMG)

I agree. With 2 DC, you have a 50% chance of 1 BOD being penetrating. That should go down, not up, if you have only 1 DC. I'd allow you to roll a d6 and have 1 penetrating BOD on a 6.

[Doc Democracy]

Good examples of why the GM always scrutinises every power submitted to him....


Energy Blast
0d6
+1 pip
Standard effect (1 Body 1 Stun)
Autofire 5 x256 (1.280)
Penetrating x4
OIF
No knockback
Only in heroic identity
Real weapon
Charges (16.000)

Active Points: 17
Real cost: 7

Now is this power going to dish out up to 1280 Body 1280 Stun each round if the target is not at least Hardened x4?


As has been pointed out previously - the base of the build is faulty - which will increase your costs. Either you are paying for EB that will not provide you with the regular BODY - and so will not provide the regular STUN - or you are paying 5 points for 1 pip of killing attack that will get the penetrating and STUN but cost more points.

The autofire has also been shown to provide you with less than you imagined for damage - you will not get many hits from a straight roll - and you need huge hits to get high damage results.

I think that I would be asking you why is this, if it is a real weapon, only available in your heroic ID? Also - is that sixteen thousand charges? Once again, in a real weapon? And what is it about that flechette gun that makes it OIF? Why shouldn't someone be able to take it away from you - once again, remember you are telling me that it is a real weapon...

I would also be asking you what kind of game you were playing in. I reckon if it is hardcore Iron Age Supers then there is room for such lethality, or if it is High End SF or Cyberpunk then it may also fit the feel of the game. Other than that I would be asking you to submit something more fitting to the genre.



Continuos beam wich increase in strenght each round:

Energy blast
15d6
Armor piercing
No range modifier
0 END
Continuous
OIF
Beam
No knockback
Only in heroic identity
Real weapon

Active Points: 262
Real cost: 105

This power should be able to deal 15d6 round 1, 30d6 round 2, 45d6 round 3 etc.

Hmm. So, you have seen the stop signs and looking glasses next to certain powers? These are indicators to players that the GM is likely to look at builds involving such powers very closely and be more likely to refuse such powers if they seem out of kilter with the campaign.

Continuous and 0 END is a combination that requires a STOP sign and would need very good justification in my game.

The OIF, real weapon and 0 END are once again concerns to me...

I would also be asking what kind of real weapon had no range modifier...


These are all questions that I as a GM would be asking you as a player to answer before I gave you permission to bring these powers into my game.

Hero is a point buy system but, beyond that, it provides you with access to most of the fundamental levers in the system to play with. That requires a decent level of responsibility from players and GMs alike.

Other games often keep you removed from the fundamental levers of the system to avoid such problems arising but that also limits what you can achieve and, as I said, in some genres I would expect those powers to be allowable with minimal adjustments but that other people would be walking around with counters and equivalents.

If there was a real weapon that provided x4 Penetrating then there would be real defences out there that had x4 hardened. There are lots of little arms races that you can play in the game about all kinds of things but a good Gm will steer you away from that and guide you towards making a decent, balanced and effective PC for his campaign.

As you have already found there is some liberty in creating things in Hero - keep exploring the system and you begin to find intriguing builds for things that you had never thought of before but work mechanically. Well worth the effort. I hope you enjoy your game when you get to it.

Doc

[CourtFool]

I Smell Munchkin - Detect Munchkin (5 Active Points), Extra Time (1 Turn; -1¼), Only From Second Hand Account of Activities (-¼) (2 Active Points)

On your Energy Blades build…
I can see Penetrating. What is your reasoning behind Penetrating x2 beyond you really really want to end around any defense?
Why decreased STUN? This appears to be a misguided attempt at cost savings. It appears you think it would be easier to outright kill someone than knock them unconscious. It has always been my experience that it is easier to knock them unconscious not to mention this is just very un-heroic.
I can see No Knockback, although given the context of everything else I just smell cost savings.
Fuel Charges are the way to go for the END issue as you are envisioning.
Do you want 2x Claws so you can dish out more damage (Increase base dice then add Reduced Penetration) or so you can attack multiple opponents (Autofire)?

[AmadanNaBriona]

*psssssst*:sneaky:

just so you don't get totally discouraged.... some of the top end weapons in my Star Hero game were just as lethal. Crafted with more experience in the system (as would be expected from someone who's been playing the bloody game since '82), but it really does come down to genre and campaign expectations.
I wouldn't, as a GM, have allowed HALF of the weapons I built for our SH campaign anywhere near our Champions game.

Do you have any campaign guidelines and expectations you can share with us?

[Spence]

Doczed

Just remember that Hero isn't like the majority of RPG's out there. It isn't designed for you to flip through the pages and select predefined powers and plug them into a character.

I think of it this way. In most RPG's the abilities are pre-defined and you select what you want and at what magnitude. The costs are pre-balanced for the specific genre the system is geared toward.

Hero is the "meta-system" used to build the pre-defined abilities you normally buy already made. As such it is not balanced at all, since the assumption is the GM will set these limits during game build.

My approach (which I shamelessly ripped off from others ;) ) is to come up with a complete concept defined not by numbers but by description. Strong enough to thrown an armored car, can bounce a bullet but not LAWs rocket, etc. Then I look at game “standards” like the average damage from a rifle bullet and the damage value of a LAW, and from there set the values to match. If I want the superbeings to be threatened by the average gunman and the game is in 65, then the upper limit of defenses should allow the PC to be hurt by a pistol or rifle.

Once you know your “scale”, then you use the various ability constructs to make it. Don’t let game mechanic possibilities drive you and the game, instead you as the GM should drive the mechanics. When I sit down with my new players to help them design their first self made PC, I do not let them even crack the book until they have a concept on paper.

[Silbeg]

Tat was the reason for 0 END

That sort of thing would raise a big flag to most GMs. When things cost 0 END, and have the potential to stack, etc., they can become most ba-roken.

Plus, it raises the Active Points. :D

[Lord Liaden]

Doczed

Just remember that Hero isn't like the majority of RPG's out there. It isn't designed for you to flip through the pages and select predefined powers and plug them into a character.

Although if you prefer that sort of thing for its ease of use, there are now a number of supplementary Hero books full of all sorts of prebuilt stuff (superpowers, magic spells, period/contemporary/futuristic weapons and equipment, character type templates) which allow you to do exactly that. :thumbup:

[Spence]

Although if you prefer that sort of thing for its ease of use, there are now a number of supplementary Hero books full of all sorts of prebuilt stuff (superpowers, magic spells, period/contemporary/futuristic weapons and equipment, character type templates) which allow you to do exactly that. :thumbup:

Most definitely :D

In fact some of the supplementary books have large sections dedicated to just that. The Ultimate series (Ultimate Brick, Ultimate Mystic, etc) is GREAT for the sheer number of build examples.

[ghost-angel]

Most definitely :D

In fact some of the supplementary books have large sections dedicated to just that. The Ultimate series (Ultimate Brick, Ultimate Mystic, etc) is GREAT for the sheer number of build examples.

not to mention USPD1, USPD2, Equipment Guide, Gadgets And Gear, FHG1, FHG2, Spacer's Toolkit and the upcoming Enchanted Items.

[Spence]

not to mention USPD1, USPD2, Equipment Guide, Gadgets And Gear, FHG1, FHG2, Spacer's Toolkit and the upcoming Enchanted Items.

Yep, but since I just recently bought the Ultimate books I am still slobbering over them :D

[PhilFleischmann]

I agree. With 2 DC, you have a 50% chance of 1 BOD being penetrating. That should go down, not up, if you have only 1 DC. I'd allow you to roll a d6 and have 1 penetrating BOD on a 6.
Absolutely! 1-pip KA, Pen shouldn't automatically do 1 pip of BODY. Even a 1d6 (3 DC) KA, Pen, doesn't automatically do BODY.

Also, a Continuous attack needs a reasonably common way to shut it off. And the book also recommends against allowing powers with 0 END and Continuous.

[Lord Liaden]

I would like to add one piece of advice, Doczed: the philosophy of HERO is that all this flexibility and customizability is there to allow you to model any effect you can think of; but it's the effect that comes first. The examples you've given don't represent any coherent concept. You're just playing the mechanics, which is why what's coming out seems broken. It would be pretty hard to envisage any weapon justifying the combination of Modifiers you chose.

HERO will reward you best if you begin by thinking up a cool concept and effect that you can logically explain and justify, and then look for the right Power and Modifier mix to represent how you want it to work. :)

[ghost-angel]

I would like to add one piece of advice, Doczed: the philosophy of HERO is that all this flexibility and customizability is there to allow you to model any effect you can think of; but it's the effect that comes first. The examples you've given don't represent any coherent concept. You're just playing the mechanics, which is why what's coming out seems broken. It would be pretty hard to envisage any weapon justifying the combination of Modifiers you chose.

HERO will reward you best if you begin by thinking up a cool concept and effect that you can logically explain and justify, and then look for the right Power and Modifier mix to represent how you want it to work. :)

In short:

Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should.

[Spence]

In short:

Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should.

STOP THAT!!!


making things simple will destroy Hero's reputation of being Uber-complicated....:sneaky:

[sbarron]

In short:

Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should.
Does it say this anywhere? It seems like it must, but I haven't actually "read" 5th edition, so I'm not sure it does. That is at the very heart of making an open-ended point build toolkit system like HERO work properly. But the idea seems to be pretty foreign to people coming from other systems where everything is pre-balanced. Pushing this idea would be good for presenting HERO to the masses. It would prevent a lot of early confusion I think. Anyone want to write a manifesto?

[SableWyvern]

Does it say this anywhere?

Reasoning from Special Effects. A bit over a page is dedicated to explaining the philosophy.

[ghost-angel]

Does it say this anywhere? It seems like it must, but I haven't actually "read" 5th edition, so I'm not sure it does. That is at the very heart of making an open-ended point build toolkit system like HERO work properly. But the idea seems to be pretty foreign to people coming from other systems where everything is pre-balanced. Pushing this idea would be good for presenting HERO to the masses. It would prevent a lot of early confusion I think. Anyone want to write a manifesto?

Not in those exact words but it's the 3rd Principle for Interpreting And Applying The Hero System Rules (5ER p543).

[Doczed]

I think that people is focusing too much on the first two powers i posted, those was just example and i posted them supposing they was broken, many of you pointed out where, and i'm fine (just a side-note, using the 'standard effect' a 1 pip blast is shown as 1 body 1 stun in my friend's hero desiger, version 2.xx)

Little side note: i edited my 1st post to reflect this


I would like to add one piece of advice, Doczed: the philosophy of HERO is that all this flexibility and customizability is there to allow you to model any effect you can think of; but it's the effect that comes first. The examples you've given don't represent any coherent concept. You're just playing the mechanics, which is why what's coming out seems broken. It would be pretty hard to envisage any weapon justifying the combination of Modifiers you chose.

Those powers was just example, not rapresenting anything i want to build (or, for the first case, rapresenting it in a very exagerated way)



On your Energy Blades build…
I can see Penetrating. What is your reasoning behind Penetrating x2 beyond you really really want to end around any defense?
Why decreased STUN? This appears to be a misguided attempt at cost savings. It appears you think it would be easier to outright kill someone than knock them unconscious. It has always been my experience that it is easier to knock them unconscious not to mention this is just very un-heroic.
I can see No Knockback, although given the context of everything else I just smell cost savings.
Fuel Charges are the way to go for the END issue as you are envisioning.
Do you want 2x Claws so you can dish out more damage (Increase base dice then add Reduced Penetration) or so you can attack multiple opponents (Autofire)?

Well, they are meant for a character i'm building, (assasin type), with mental/mystic-derived teleportation and invisibility power, decreased stun is there because the blades should deal no stun at all in the way i designed them but didn't find any appropriate modifier for that (aside from custom ones), still cost saving isn't bad.
They should rapresent a pair of energy blades originated from two technological devices on the forearms (stacraft zealots, anyone?), powered with an internal enegy source but wich would require mental powers to use (so focus and not independent).
2x claws would be to attack multiple times the same/different opponent(S) (so, supposing one claw deals 2d6 Ka and 2d6 STR, two would be 2 4d6 attacks not an 8d6 one)
Obviously 2wf and other skill and martial manouvers would be required (and i'll probably ask something about them later)

[SableWyvern]

...decreased stun is there because the blades should deal no stun at all in the way i designed them...

As I understand it, Stun in HERO represents, amongst other things, shock and pain. Almost all (if not all) weapons that deal Body damage should also deal at least some Stun.

[CourtFool]

Psi Blades - 2d6 HKA, Autofile (2 shots; +¼), Penetrating (+½) (105 Active Points) Obvious Inaccessible Focus (-½) Power Does No STUN (-¾) Power Draws END from Psi Endurance Reserve (-0) (47 Real Points)

[Doczed]

Psi Blades - 2d6 HKA, Autofile (2 shots; +¼), Penetrating (+½) (105 Active Points) Obvious Inaccessible Focus (-½) Power Does No STUN (-¾) Power Draws END from Psi Endurance Reserve (-0) (47 Real Points)


1) Where Does no stun comes from? Custom?
2) Why autofire if there are specific rules for two weapon fighting? just because it's cheaper (if it is, away from books atm)?
3) the power shouldn't drain ENd for character but frm it's own reserve (mental skill is needed to use it, but the blades are originated from a tech device), and possibly work on a time basis and not on a END/attack basis

[gojira]

1)...work on a time basis and not on a END/attack basis

Can you explain that one a bit more? How does this work (concept wise, not mechanics wise)?

You hit someone with these metal blades and eventually the psi energy overcomes them? Or you don't have to hit them at all, just stare at the blade and concentrate and eventually they'll plop over?

I'm trying to "novelize" this, make it into a story, so I can get the concept down.

[CourtFool]

1) Where Does no stun comes from? Custom?
2) Why autofire if there are specific rules for two weapon fighting? just because it's cheaper (if it is, away from books atm)?
3) the power shouldn't drain ENd for character but frm it's own reserve (mental skill is needed to use it, but the blades are originated from a tech device), and possibly work on a time basis and not on a END/attack basis

1) Hero System 5th Edition, Revised pg. 299.
2) Why not Autofire? You have just stumbled across one of the many beauties of Hero System. There is often multiple ways of doing the same thing. I personally prefer (just a preference) Autofire over Two-Weapon Fighting because I do not have to use a full phase, I do not loose ½ DCV or -2 DCV and I do not have to worry about having all the appropriate Weapon Familiarities.
3) The power does not drain from the Character's END. It comes from the Character's END Reserve; a separate power that will need to be added. Of course, you can avoid this with the Fuel Charge option.

[Doczed]

Can you explain that one a bit more? How does this work (concept wise, not mechanics wise)?

You hit someone with these metal blades and eventually the psi energy overcomes them? Or you don't have to hit them at all, just stare at the blade and concentrate and eventually they'll plop over?

I'm trying to "novelize" this, make it into a story, so I can get the concept down.

Ok here's a very short (and probably badly written, english is not my native language) background of the character:

Born an raised in the middle-east, by an ancient sect of assasins (fictional spinoff from the storical Hashashiyyin (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashshashin)), from whch he has learned superior martial skills and mystical-mental powers, taken by the URSS un the early 80's, trained and used as a spy-assassin by KGB, (here he did gain the tech-powered blades), after the fall of the Berlin Wall and the dismanteling of URSS he moved to europe and america and started to act as an hired killer.

Onto the weapon itself, the details are still cloudy, but here it comes the main idea: two forearms-attached devices wich would shape and focus the mental energy of the characther in two blades of pure energy, able to tear trought flesh and metal with ease (like a jedi sword, just for reference), the devices are self-powered and able to grant about 1 hour of work before running out of energy.

The appearence is much like the weapon of protoss zealots (starcraft RTS), look at those links to get an idea (just for the weapon, not for the rest of the armor or for the general apperence of the character):
IMG1 (http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/0/0d/300px-FenixAntioch.jpg)
IMG2 (http://hem.passagen.se/asbas/zealot1.jpg)
IMG3 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/neo_lecksfrawen/Artwork/CG%20-%20not%20my%20lineart/Zealotready.png)
IMG4 (http://tn3-2.deviantart.com/fs6/300W/i/2005/072/3/4/Protoss_Zealot_Armor_3D_Model_by_maidenjeanne.jpg)


As I understand it, Stun in HERO represents, amongst other things, shock and pain. Almost all (if not all) weapons that deal Body damage should also deal at least some Stun.

Mm i didn't think about that, but if that is the case, STUN should still be limited to the BODY damage rolled, this kind of weapon has no momentum, something like -1/2, STUN =BODY?

I have tought about increasing the KA damage ad give it no-str, to represent it, but that would send acriv points trought the roof to get the same damage output.

[Doczed]

Right now i'm waiting for a mod to approve my last post (some links in), mainly an answer to CourtFool, Gojira and SableWyvern.

While waiting, there's something else i'd like to discuss with anyone wich have some time to waste:

Powers like summon, duplicate, multiform, well i can see them going 'wrong' very easily. Now, i understand that summon is a STOP power, and duplicate a ! one, but still they seem... well innherently umbalanced, mostly due to the 5/1 or similar ratio in cost/effectiveness

Important note: as the first 2 examples i posted in this topic the following are just quick gaming exercise, to familiarize with hero system

Exaple 1: a standard summon zombie spell
Summon 150 points
Slavishly devoted (+1)
Incantations (-1/4)
Gestures (-1/4)
Active points: 60, Real cost: 40

Now, a simple adder cam make it horribly wrong
x16 numbers of beings (+20)
Active points: 100, Real cost: 67
now for roughly +60% Active ponts, END cost and real points the spell is x16 as effective (actualy less due to AoE, but i think you all get the point)

Example 2: a power suit wich can reconfigure itself in different forms
Multiform 400 points
x4 number of forms (+10)
OIF (-1/2)
Cost END (only to change) (-1/2)
Active points: 90, Real cost: 45

Now, are you telling me that for 45 point i get 4 more 400-points characters with different powers? 1-5 on different forms and 5pt for doubbling it seem somewhat a bargain...

Example 3: a mechanical being wich can spawn 'drones'
Duplication 200 points
Altered duplicats (100%) (+1)
Active points: 60 , Real cost: 60

As for summon, just increasing the number of duplicats lead to some weird stuff:
+6 Duplicates (+30)
Active points: 90 , Real cost: 90
50% increase in cost for x4 increased number, what's that? attack of the clones?

[Chris Goodwin]

Any system can be gamed by a sufficiently determined player.

The Hero System perhaps lends itself to being gamed a little more than most, due to the vast array of options it presents. Ultimately, it's up to the GM to say yea or nay to any particular character or construction.

Doczed, those appear to be legal constructions by the rulebook (modulo my inability to check the math, being at work and not having my book with me). Whether the GM would allow them is another story. Also, many games have an Active Point cap for Powers; a frequent Active Point cap is 60 for superhero games, and examples 1 and 3 are at that level with the base constructions. If you're looking at a Fantasy Hero game, you've probably got a 40 to 60 Active Point cap, and all of your constructions are above the 40 Active Point level and would be disallowed in a game capped at 40.

[ghost-angel]

Right now i'm waiting for a mod to approve my last post (some links in), mainly an answer to CourtFool, Gojira and SableWyvern.

While waiting, there's something else i'd like to discuss with anyone wich have some time to waste:

Powers like summon, duplicate, multiform, well i can see them going 'wrong' very easily. Now, i understand that summon is a STOP power, and duplicate a ! one, but still they seem... well innherently umbalanced, mostly due to the 5/1 or similar ratio in cost/effectiveness

Example 3: a mechanical being wich can spawn 'drones'
Duplication 200 points
Altered duplicats (100%) (+1)
Active points: 60 , Real cost: 60

80 pts. (just to point it out).

As for the first part - yes those particular powers can cause some abuse issues. But there are some mitigating issues.

First, on your Multiform - a 400 pt form. That's 50pts more than a Standard Super. Since the Alternate Forms are based on the same points as the True Form (i.e. all forms are built on the same points, 200 Points + 150 Disadvantages) you need to come up with 50 more points in Disadvantages. Disadvantages, I might add, that are probably worth less for the simple fact you could negate many of them by changing forms (and so are worth less, typically up to half as much).

Beyond that - it's up to the Players and GM to not cause issues with their own game.

Or you can abuse to silliness:
Bring The Pain 1D6 Ranged Killing Attack; NND (defense: Resistant Smell Flash Defense); Does Body; Continuous (60 Active Points).

My suggestion: stop worrying about how you can break the system - we've been doing that for years and years, we can do all kinds of abusive things without much thought put into it.

Instead concentrate on using the system to construct what you want.
In the end I have found the system to be one of the most balanced (and balanceable - no I don't think that's a real word) systems out there. But it is up to the GM and Players to use it to model the game they want to play. The system is not your babysitter.

[Hugh Neilson]

The system is not your babysitter.

I like that phrase, and it hits the nail on the head. Unlike many other games, the Hero system does not restrict what abilities can be purchased. It does not enforce balance. That responsibility is left to players and GM's. As a result, it's a very poor choice for immature gamers. Some systems are designed to reward players for finding the hidden, broken constructs. Hero makes no effort to hide or restrict them, but also doesn't reward them - they simply get shot down by Hero veterans, and the player is not greeted with accolades for his cleverness, but jeers for his munchkin behaviour.

Yes, you can break the system. So can everyone else. Now let's see you use it to build an interesting character who's balanced, fun to play and adds to the game.

[gojira]

Onto the weapon itself, the details are still cloudy, but here it comes the main idea: two forearms-attached devices wich would shape and focus the mental energy of the characther in two blades of pure energy, able to tear trought flesh and metal with ease (like a jedi sword, just for reference), the devices are self-powered and able to grant about 1 hour of work before running out of energy.

Special effect wise, you could justify almost anything with this. Armor Piercing x 2 or whatever the campaign limit is would be fine. 4d6HKA, AP x 2, would be extensive but within reason for this kind of attack. So would something like 3d6 NND, Does Body. This would allow you to rip tanks to shreds in a couple of swipes. Defense would be some sort of Protos Force Field.

[bjvargas]

Beyond that there's a reason why games have active point limits. Check out page 28 of 5ER for that information. :)

Ooooh, yeah. I haven't tried to sit down and figure it out in a long time, but you don't even need Champions to destroy most of the world. I vaguely remember many years ago sitting down to create a FH mage, and for the hell of it, created a spell that would do several d6 killing damage in a field that covered the entire earth. 99.999% of all living things would die instantly. Sure, the spell took gawdawful ingredients, and, I think, it was like a year in the casting, but it could be done.

HERO isn't for the faint-hearted GM, that's for sure. But that's the price one pays for the absolutely *outstanding* flexibility and creative possibilities.

[CourtFool]

As a result, it's a very poor choice for immature gamers.

Aha!

On an unrelated note, I over heard someone at a gaming store say that G.U.R.P.S. was not a very solid game. They followed this up by saying Paladium was better. Now I could certainly understand if someone said they preferred Paladium. That would be a matter of taste. I have heard G.U.R.P.S. called many things, 'not solid' has never been one of them. I guess I should have asked how he defined 'solid'. I think G.U.R.P.S., Hero and many other point buy systems are prone to munchkinism. Of course, any system can be munchkined with enough determination.

[ghost-angel]

On an unrelated note, I over heard someone at a gaming store say that G.U.R.P.S. was not a very solid game. They followed this up by saying Paladium was better.

:jawdrop:

the mind boggles.

[L. Marcus]

:eek:

and goes numb

[Lucius]

My suggestion: stop worrying about how you can break the system - we've been doing that for years and years, we can do all kinds of abusive things without much thought put into it.

.


Oh, let him break the system.

We all went through that phase. It's part of getting to know and understand Hero, and that he's going through it is a good sign that he's going be a dedicated Hero fan and stick with it.

Breaking the system is something he just has to get out of his system.

Lucius Alexander

And the verdict is: Innocent! Feed him to the palindromedary!

[CourtFool]

You know…that is an excellent point. When he GMs he will know what not to allow.

[Doczed]

Well i think many of you are wondering the reason of all of this questions.

I consider myself an experienced RPG player, both on the pure RP side an on the character building one. Am i a powerplayer? Hard to tell even from myself, i do like to play 'above average' characters, but one of the thing that i hate most is to outhsine the whole party (ot to be utterly underpoweredon the other end). For other game system i have a clear idea of wich is the 'average power level', so knowing the rest of the player i can build my characters accordingly. In hero this knowlege is still 'work in progress', so here i'm triing to establish a 'this is broken, this is powerful, this is ok, this is underpowered' ezperience.
I range from very low-powered games to pure munchkinism ones, and enjoy them all if the master is good and the game is intriguing.

[CourtFool]

And people wonder why I have issues with min/maxers.

[ghost-angel]

Well i think many of you are wondering the reason of all of this questions.

I consider myself an experienced RPG player, both on the pure RP side an on the character building one. Am i a powerplayer? Hard to tell even from myself, i do like to play 'above average' characters, but one of the thing that i hate most is to outhsine the whole party (ot to be utterly underpoweredon the other end). For other game system i have a clear idea of wich is the 'average power level', so knowing the rest of the player i can build my characters accordingly. In hero this knowlege is still 'work in progress', so here i'm triing to establish a 'this is broken, this is powerful, this is ok, this is underpowered' ezperience.
I range from very low-powered games to pure munchkinism ones, and enjoy them all if the master is good and the game is intriguing.

There's one big difference with Hero though ... the "average power level" can change from game to game.

10D6 Energy Blast may be underpowered in one game, overpowered in another, just right in a third, and completely unbalancing in a fourth.

While Lucius has a point about it being good to explore and see where you can poke the Hero System, it's almost impossible to say whether or not any given construct is going to be broken in a game.

[Lucius]

There's one big difference with Hero though ... the "average power level" can change from game to game.

10D6 Energy Blast may be underpowered in one game, overpowered in another, just right in a third, and completely unbalancing in a fourth.

While Lucius has a point about it being good to explore and see where you can poke the Hero System, it's almost impossible to say whether or not any given construct is going to be broken in a game.

That depends.

Some are definitely "broken" in the "won't do what you intended" sense. Piling up huge numbers of autofire shots is an example. Most of the shots will be wasted (Unless you're using Area Effect, which has its own problems. i.e. even then you get many shots "scatterred.")

Some are definitely "broken" in the "way too much bang for the buck" sense. I suspect there are NO games where Feign Death is Usable As Attack.

But there are probably a lot of constructs that would be considered "abusive" in one game, but acceptable in another.

Lucius Alexander

Master of the Palindromedary! (It always laughs when I say that - both ends.)

[Loxly]

Oh, let him break the system.

We all went through that phase. It's part of getting to know and understand Hero, and that he's going through it is a good sign that he's going be a dedicated Hero fan and stick with it.

Breaking the system is something he just has to get out of his system.

Lucius Alexander

And the verdict is: Innocent! Feed him to the palindromedary!

I don't think I've ever tried to break the Hero System.

I've been playing and running Hero off and on since it came out.

I've pretty much seen someone else do all those things, I don't need to myself. :)

[Susano]

Oh, let him break the system.

We all went through that phase. It's part of getting to know and understand Hero, and that he's going through it is a good sign that he's going be a dedicated Hero fan and stick with it.

For all my HERO experience, I've never tried to do that, and I've come to realize that I am a terrible min-maxer -- I just don't have the mind-set to create some of the things people have created and posted to show how "silly" you can get with the system. I'm too busy just trying to build cool and useful stuff than worry about how to blow-up the Earth on
Active Points (EDM, dimension where the Earth has exploded [how's that?)

[sbarron]

For all my HERO experience, I've never tried to do that, and I've come to realize that I am a terrible min-maxer -- I just don't have the mind-set to create some of the things people have created and posted to show how "silly" you can get with the system. I'm too busy just trying to build cool and useful stuff than worry about how to blow-up the Earth on
Active Points (EDM, dimension where the Earth has exploded [how's that?)I'm sorry, but this evidence coming to light makes me question your passion for Hero. ;)

[Lucius]

I don't think I've ever tried to break the Hero System.

I've been playing and running Hero off and on since it came out.

I've pretty much seen someone else do all those things, I don't need to myself. :)

Okay, we’ve all been through that phase but Loxly.


For all my HERO experience, I've never tried to do that, and I've come to realize that I am a terrible min-maxer -- I just don't have the mind-set to create some of the things people have created and posted to show how "silly" you can get with the system. I'm too busy just trying to build cool and useful stuff than worry about how to blow-up the Earth on
Active Points (EDM, dimension where the Earth has exploded [how's that?)

Okay, we’ve all been through that phase but Loxly – Susano doesn’t count!
“We’ve all” obviously doesn’t include such exalted beings!

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary denies ever trying to break the Hero System, and is asking if that means it’s an “exalted being” too.....oh look, Lucius is hitting his head against the wall again and muttering something about the folly of generalizing from his own experience...

[ghost-angel]

Most every GM I've played under tells me I can't munchkin if I tried.

One GM almost broke down in tears when I set out to do so on purpose. Then laughed when he saw all the "non-useful" stuff I managed to include anyways.

I just can't bring myself to break character concept......

[CourtFool]

Okay, we’ve all been through that phase but Loxly – Susano doesn’t count!
“We’ve all” obviously doesn’t include such exalted beings!


They are just closet system breakers.

[Chris Goodwin]

Most every GM I've played under tells me I can't munchkin if I tried.

One GM almost broke down in tears when I set out to do so on purpose. Then laughed when he saw all the "non-useful" stuff I managed to include anyways.

I just can't bring myself to break character concept......

I can in a theoretical discussion, but I can't do it on an actual character.

(1 pip RKA, AoE 1 Hex, MegaScale 100,000 km, NND Does Body (Force Field), Personal Immunity, 1E+100 charges. Combine this with Blazin' Away....)

[JmOz]

Most every GM I've played under tells me I can't munchkin if I tried.

One GM almost broke down in tears when I set out to do so on purpose. Then laughed when he saw all the "non-useful" stuff I managed to include anyways.

I just can't bring myself to break character concept......

I do it with purpose, basicaly I will munchkin stuff so that I have points for stuff that will never come up

For instance

Costume: 10/10 Armor, Alblative: Body only, OIF, unbreakable (Armor is made of a special fiber that requires spesific chemicals to cut or break)

that payid for a couple of contacts on my last character

[Lucius]

I do it with purpose, basicaly I will munchkin stuff so that I have points for stuff that will never come up

For instance

Costume: 10/10 Armor, Alblative: Body only, OIF, unbreakable (Armor is made of a special fiber that requires spesific chemicals to cut or break)

that payid for a couple of contacts on my last character

Wait a minute -


ablative, unbreakable?? How does THAT work?

Lucius Alexander

And an ablative unbreakable palindromedary

[Greywind]

Magic ablative armor that actually doesn't...

[JmOz]

Wait a minute -


ablative, unbreakable?? How does THAT work?

Lucius Alexander

And an ablative unbreakable palindromedary

it all comes to F/X, the armor does get damaged, it just does not follow the standard rules for foci breaking, which would be 1 point of body destroyes it

[Nekkidcarpenter]

And you didn't even include my favorite limitation on Armor, Visible.

Or Extra Time to activate the costume.





__________________________________________________ ___________


I used to be a Munchkin. Now I'm a Junior Member:thumbdown

[Spence]

And you didn't even include my favorite limitation on Armor, Visible.



I don't understand "Armor, Visible" as a limitation. Maybe as a zero adder for spec effect.

All powers are visible unless invisible power effects are purchased, IIRC. Which makes Armor visible by default.

I am curious, how can that be a limitation for the purposes of points? If I am understanding it correctly, it would be like the Human Torch taking disadvantage points because his force field is visible. :confused:

[JmOz]

Spense, you are operating under a false premice

All powers are not inherently visible, only powers that cost END

Armor does not cost END, so it is not inherently visible, thus the limitation

as for why, my GM said no, same for extra time, and concentration...

[Hyper-Man]

I don't understand "Armor, Visible" as a limitation. Maybe as a zero adder for spec effect.

All powers are visible unless invisible power effects are purchased, IIRC. Which makes Armor visible by default.

I am curious, how can that be a limitation for the purposes of points? If I am understanding it correctly, it would be like the Human Torch taking disadvantage points because his force field is visible. :confused:

The special effect of Armor is Invisible by default.

from 5er page 102:


PERCEIVABLE SPECIAL EFFECTS
Powers that normally cost END automatically have perceivable special effects when used, even if bought to 0 END (see Special Effects, above). The player decides what the Power looks like, but it must be obvious that he’s using a Power and where it comes from. Powers that inherently cost no END do not automatically have perceivable special effects. If the player wants such a Power’s special effect to be perceivable, he can buy it with the Visible Limitation or some other Limitation that implies perceivability (such as Focus).
In most cases, Constant Powers that cost END are perceivable throughout their use, not just in the Segment when they’re activated. If the GM believes a Constant Power would not ordinarily be perceivable throughout its use (only when first activated and used), he might allow the character to take the Visible Limitation on the Power to make it perceivable throughout.
If a character has power that inherently costs no END (such as Armor) and he applies the Costs Endurance Limitation to it, it automatically become perceivable by three Sense Groups. He cannot also take the Limitation Visible for it. If a character applies Reduced Endurance (0 END) to a power, it does not become invisible just like a power that inherently costs no END; if a character wants that effect, he has to apply the Advantage Invisible Power Effects.

[Spence]

Spense, you are operating under a false premice

All powers are not inherently visible, only powers that cost END

Armor does not cost END, so it is not inherently visible, thus the limitation

as for why, my GM said no, same for extra time, and concentration...


The special effect of Armor is Invisible by default.

from 5er page 102:

Hence why I asked and used IIRC ;)

I still get tripped up by the "new stuff" ie 5th ed, and "old house rules".

If I am at home I can take a quick look, but when I am away I don't have my books and so ask the question.

If I don't ask while the irons hot, I'll forget :nonp:

[JmOz]

sorry, did not mean to sound harsh, btw, it was this way in 4th, not sure about before that

[Spence]

sorry, did not mean to sound harsh, btw, it was this way in 4th, not sure about before that

More than likely. Before I started playing again after 5th, I played with a very regular group in the 80's for a long long time. With a HUGE break in between. My biggest problem (Me, not the system) is the rules are so close and feel so unchanged that many times I can't remember or tell if it was a rule change or a just me imitating Homer S and having forgotton it was a houseruling.

Right after you said "end" I felt like slapping the forehead with a hearty "Doh!"

But life goes on :D

Of course i still don't see the point of making armor "visible" as a lim. I have visions of everyone running around in glowing spandex ;)

[Hyper-Man]

...

Of course i still don't see the point of making armor "visible" as a lim. I have visions of everyone running around in glowing spandex ;)

Well, a Colossus-like character could have Armor with the Visible and OIHID Limitations to represent that it doesn't turn off (like FF does when stunned or KO'd) unless the character initiates the change into normal form. It is a somewhat limited circumstance though. :D

[Greywind]

Depends on the time frame of the build.

From what I remember, Colossus reverts to normal when he is knocked out.

[Hyper-Man]

Depends on the time frame of the build.

From what I remember, Colossus reverts to normal when he is knocked out.

Which is why I said Colossus-like.
:cool:

[Greywind]

Well, he was Colossus-like even when he couldn't change back at all... :p

[Nekkidcarpenter]

I'd always thought of him as being Colostomy-like.


I kid, I kid! The big smelly Russian goofball has noooo sense of humor.....

[Zorak1003]

Isn't Armor assumed to BE visible in the first place?

[JmOz]

Isn't Armor assumed to BE visible in the first place?

No, it is not. Only powers that cost END are assumed to have vissible F/X, armor does not cost end, so it is not visibile.

[Diamond Spear]

I learned about giving both Active Point limits and Damage Class limits when running a game in the mid 90’s (4th Edition). I gave a limit of 75 AP and one of my players (as a joke) turned in a sheet with a character that bought +25d6 HTH attack (3 points per d6). As I started to stammer out a rejection he just laughed and told me it was his way of making sure I issued both AP and DC limits.

[pinecone]

I learned about giving both Active Point limits and Damage Class limits when running a game in the mid 90’s (4th Edition). I gave a limit of 75 AP and one of my players (as a joke) turned in a sheet with a character that bought +25d6 HTH attack (3 points per d6). As I started to stammer out a rejection he just laughed and told me it was his way of making sure I issued both AP and DC limits.

What he didn't pair it up with a 75 STR? wot a wimp...:)