Dumbest thing...

[ParagonAlpha]

So I was thinking about this. Comic Book writers have done some dumb things. I was wondering what you all thought was the dumbest thing ever done.

One caveat. The thing done can't have been written with the intent of being dumb. It has to have been done with the intent of actually being cool.

I'll go first.

Wolverine regenerating from just one drop of blood in Uncanny X-Men Annual #11.

LAME!!!

[Comic]

Dazzler.

Pick your issue and panel.

[TechCommando]

Rebirthing Spiderman and giving him stingers......or unmasking him. Take your pick :idjit:

[Greywind]

Maximum Clonage...


'Nuff Said

[Nucleon]

Marvel's "Heroes Reborn".

[Korvar]

"The Spiderman you've been reading about for the past 15 years is a clone!"

Civil War.

[ParagonAlpha]

"The Spiderman you've been reading about for the past 15 years is a clone!"



I forgot all about Spider-Clone...

Repped

[tribe]

Dazzler.

Pick your issue and panel.

Oh come on, Dazzler's fine - as long as she's not in love with Longshot at the time.

My vote would be the third Summers brother.

Or more likely Captain Universe. :thumbup:

[Comic]

The Siege Perilous.

[Lord Liaden]

The Marvel/DC Amalgam crossover, with the fans voting on who would win various confrontations. Lobo vs. Wolverine: they disappear together behind a bar, supposedly tussling. A couple of panels later Wolverine emerges, implicitly victorious. Obviously the comic's creators couldn't think of any credible way to depict such a ludicrous outcome.

Runner up is the conclusion to DC's Armageddon 2001 miniseries, when the identity of the new master villain Monarch is revealed to be the one character who makes absolutely no sense given everything else shown and implied during the series. I spent the next hour after I read it repeating, utterly incredulously, "HAWK?!"

[Pariah]

Wow, we're 10 posts in and nobody's specifically mentioned Civil War yet. More than the usual level of restraint today, I see. :D

[red_eagle123]

Pssst. Civil War was mentioned back in the 6th post....


Anyhow, my contributions:
Superman was never Superboy post-crisis. Spelled disaster for the Legion of Super-Heroes.

Wonder Woman never appeared in Man's World till AFTER Donna Troy had long been active.

Squirrel Girl beat up Doctor Doom. Squirrel Girl beat up Thanos. It's being used for humor fodder now by Dan Slott in the Great Lakes Initiative (formerly Avengers, formerly Xmen, formerly...) but at the time it was serious work.

Hawkeye dies because he's too stupid to take off his quiver and ditch it before his explosive arrow blows up. Even though he tells people it's going to blow up. So he straps on a kree jetpack and flies up to the Kree ship to blow it up....

[Pariah]

Pssst. Civil War was mentioned back in the 6th post....
Carp, I'd missed that. Sorry. It's just that I'd expected a LOT more Civil War gripes, based on previous experience here.

As for my nominee: The Phoenix Force.

The Dark Phoenix story, especially the conclusion, was one of the most poignant and moving in the genre to that point. To throw that away, to say in essence "It didn't really happen that way" just to have Jean available for yet another X-book was just plain stupid.

[bwdemon]

Cable and all the plotlines and characters he dragged in...

[csyphrett]

I'm not too keen on Identity Crisis/Infinite Crisis.
CES

[Brandi]

The Draco.

[Dr. Rune]

Anything with Deadpool in it.

[Blue Jogger]

I liked all the ones posted, but I have to mention...

Killing Supergirl. Then bringing her back as Matrix (which I could forgive if that was the end of it), then merging her into Linda Danvers to reboot her back into a new Supergirl (which again I could almost forgive, even if it is very convenient to find a human who happened to have the same name and simular build to an alter ego that only the fans remember).

And then things got strange.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linda_Danvers

[Teflon Billy]

Oh come on, Dazzler's fine - as long as she's not in love with Longshot at the time.

My vote would be the third Summers brother.

Or more likely Captain Universe. :thumbup:
I'd agree on Captain Universe.

The recent mini about him reminded me in the clearest way why I hate Silver Age idiocy.

Bleh, boring, mind numbing, juvenile, you name it, it was total crap.

TB

[Nekkidcarpenter]

These are probably a little more obscure than most, but it's a tie for me.

Dumbest use of powers by non Plastic Man characters- Flash using his super speed to carry on both sides of a conversation by running back and forth across a room and changing clothes so fast that no one noticed.

Dumbest non use of powers-Robotman gets hit by a car and separated into 2 halves, legs on on side of the road and arms on the other. He braids a rope out of grass and spends hours trying to lasso his legs instead of CRAWLING across the road.

Dumbest thing to happen to a character- Waiting till now to kill Cap. They should have done it years ago, look at all the interest it's created.

[input.jack]

The Iron Age.

[Drhoz]

anything by Mark Millar. Admittedly, some of it seems cool the first time round, but when you reread it a few years later you ask youself "what was the *point* of this?"

[Stephen Mann]

I don't recall which issue this was, but a long ago Iron Man fight had his suit frozen/paralyzed. Stuck in the frozen suit, he's about to be hit by the enemy's huge energy blast, when .....

It turns out that the Iron Man suit is really paper-thin micro-chainmail fortified by force fields. So Tony peels himself out the tinfoil-like suit through the back so that the enemy can't see him leave. He then quickly dives into a nearby ditch to avoid the blast, before sneaking around behind the enemy to surprise him.

Right, so I dare you to:

peel yourself out the back of your clothes,
without visibly moving your clothes (which are frozen anyway)
without the tear being visible from the front
(and yet still big enough for you to escape through),

and then, hiding behind your clothes, dive into a ditch....without being seen. Oh, and do all this in the time it takes the enemy to gloat a little and charge up an energy blast - a few seconds.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Superman was never Superboy post-crisis. Spelled disaster for the Legion of Super-Heroes.

This one gets my vote. And has for... gak! 2 decades now?!? :weep:

[caris]

John Byrne's run on West Coast Avengers.

[Nucleon]

Civil War?

Civil War was fine; It was like the whole mutant idiocy that marvel has been living off for 20 years, but with, you know, common sense.

:saturn:

[freakboy6117]

super man was a legion member again post the latest crisis its been a key plot point in the latest JLA/JSA cross over and his encounter with Mon-El has been a major part of the current run of action scripted by Geoff Johns and Richard Donner

[CrosshairCollie]

Civil War gets my vote, definitely. Let's just gut the superhero genre completely.

For the record, Wolverine only 'regenerated' from the single drop of blood because of the reality-bending M'Krann crystal that he bled *on*. :)

[death tribble]

Civil War with the whole Cap and Shield have a 30 second conversation and then they turn on him ?
Or Speedball surviving and deciding to wear a costume that hurt him ?
Or the idiot end to Civil War with civilians tackling Cap and then Cap surrendering ?

Identity Crisis with the first victim. Somebody somewhere has to have a marriage that works and they don't get hurt. That happens in real life so why not in the comics ? Doing this to Sue was wrong.
Worse was the whole Sue was raped by Dr Light annd then we messed with his mind business to make him incompetant.
And finally Jean Loring becomes Eclipso. Yeah right.

Spiderman is a clone. Drivel.
Norman Osborn is still alive ? Rubbish.

The OMAC robots in Batman.
The retcon that made Maxwell Lord a villain after previous history had said he could not be one.

Scarlet Witch killing off all the mutants.

Turning Hal Jordon into Parallax and then forgiving him. Like no.

[Hugh Neilson]

Identity Crisis with the first victim. Somebody somewhere has to have a marriage that works and they don't get hurt. That happens in real life so why not in the comics ? Doing this to Sue was wrong.

Emphasis added. This isn't a "comics" issue, it's a "serialized fiction" issue. How many soap opera marriages work and no one gets hurt? Not many, I suspect. Why? Because writers need plotlines. Here in the "real world", I don't have to have something exciting and new happen every day or two to keep the readers/viewers coming back. I doubt a show based on my life would have a wide long-term appeal, and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't watch a show based on most other peoples' lives. We're really not interested in filling our escapism time with actual "reality".

To Sue specifically, I was quite taken aback by her death. It was unexpected and, as a consequence, dramatic. Should certain characters be tagged as "off limits"? Many already are - we're not going to see Superman or Lois killed off any time soon. They have too much value as an ongoing property. Of course, that means, when we read the book, we already know that, somehow, they'll make it out OK, and that takes away some of the suspense. Just like we know it's the guy we don't recognize in the Red Shirt who won't be coming back - the bridge crew will all make it out OK.

There's two certainties in serials like this. If nothing ever changes, the fanswill complain about stagnation. If anything changes, the fans will complain about the change. Bottom line: They're going to complain, so do whatever sells the most books/rakes in the most viewers.

[FenrisUlf]

Indigo betraying the Outsiders when she was the one character who literally couldn't.

(Okay, she could have had a Brainiac computer virus uploaded or something, but they could have at least given us some hint of that before hand.)

[DocSamson]

Breaking the 4th wall as a regular schtick. Booo hisss to She-Hulk and Deadpool who are otherwise ok characters.

[Korvar]

Turning Hal Jordon into Parallax and then forgiving him. Like no.

I quite liked the idea of making him the new Spectre - he couldn't be a Green Lantern any more, couldn't have a "normal" life any more, but could contribute, and perhaps work his way to some kind of redemption. It actually fit rather well.

But then they ditched that because (I presume) some fan of Hal from the past decided he Must Be Green Lantern Again.

[transmetahuman]

Breaking the 4th wall as a regular schtick. Booo hisss to She-Hulk and Deadpool who are otherwise ok characters.
By the time I started reading She-Hulk, the only real fourth wall breaking type stuff I ever saw was the way her law firm has that big collection of Marvel back issues (authorized serial biographies) to research from. Okay, it's a goofy bit, but it doesn't bug me like a lot of the stuff in the fourth-wall-breaking thread would. Did I miss a period where it was more prevalent/cutesy? I heard about that Comics Code clothing tag bit... Oh well, I really like She-Hulk; hope they don't go quite that far with the schtick again.

[Korvar]

By the time I started reading She-Hulk, the only real fourth wall breaking type stuff I ever saw was the way her law firm has that big collection of Marvel back issues (authorized serial biographies) to research from. Okay, it's a goofy bit, but it doesn't bug me like a lot of the stuff in the fourth-wall-breaking thread would. Did I miss a period where it was more prevalent/cutesy? I heard about that Comics Code clothing tag bit... Oh well, I really like She-Hulk; hope they don't go quite that far with the schtick again.

John Byrne's run(s) on She Hulk both had the 4-th wall thing as the major schtick. Some of it was actually quite funny...

[CrosshairCollie]

By the time I started reading She-Hulk, the only real fourth wall breaking type stuff I ever saw was the way her law firm has that big collection of Marvel back issues (authorized serial biographies) to research from. Okay, it's a goofy bit, but it doesn't bug me like a lot of the stuff in the fourth-wall-breaking thread would. Did I miss a period where it was more prevalent/cutesy? I heard about that Comics Code clothing tag bit... Oh well, I really like She-Hulk; hope they don't go quite that far with the schtick again.

At one point (issue #3, IIRC), to get across town quickly, she ripped open the panel of the comic and she and her entourage ran through. The next page was a parody of the American Comics ad that you saw in EVERY Marvel Comic of that era, with She-Hulk and co walking across it, then they 'ripped' into the first panel of the next page.

[Brandi]

But then they ditched that because (I presume) some fan of Hal from the past decided he Must Be Green Lantern Again.

Wasn't said fan in fact Alex Ross?

[Enforcer84]

Civil War?

Civil War was fine; It was like the whole mutant idiocy that marvel has been living off for 20 years, but with, you know, common sense.

:saturn:
Er. I'm going to pretend you didn't put Civil War and Common Sense in the same sentence.

:D

[Enforcer84]

Civil War with the whole Cap and Shield have a 30 second conversation and then they turn on him ?
Or Speedball surviving and deciding to wear a costume that hurt him ?
Or the idiot end to Civil War with civilians tackling Cap and then Cap surrendering ?

Identity Crisis with the first victim. Somebody somewhere has to have a marriage that works and they don't get hurt. That happens in real life so why not in the comics ? Doing this to Sue was wrong.
Worse was the whole Sue was raped by Dr Light annd then we messed with his mind business to make him incompetant.
And finally Jean Loring becomes Eclipso. Yeah right.

Spiderman is a clone. Drivel.
Norman Osborn is still alive ? Rubbish.

The OMAC robots in Batman.
The retcon that made Maxwell Lord a villain after previous history had said he could not be one.

Scarlet Witch killing off all the mutants.

Turning Hal Jordon into Parallax and then forgiving him. Like no.
Norman Osborne getting Gwen Stacy Pregnant.

[csyphrett]

Norman Osborne getting Gwen Stacy Pregnant.

I saw a rumor somewhere that it was supposed to be Pete's kids, but when Editorial actually saw the work they changed it to Osborne.

Which kind of brings to mind what are these editors thinking when they have a story half finished, then start screaming change it? Why didn't they think of this stuff ahead of time?
CES

[Midas]

One I just mentioned in an earlier post. Secret Wars, dog pile on Beyonder. Hulk and She Hulk are pounding away with every ounce of strength. Thor is throwing Mjollnr as hard as he possibly can. And Captain America decides he can make an iota of difference in the fight by flinging his shield at the Beyonder.

FYI, the Beyonder was an intelligent *universe* that happened to notice the Marvel Universe next door, and decided to see what he could do to make it more interesting.

Midas

[Enforcer84]

I saw a rumor somewhere that it was supposed to be Pete's kids, but when Editorial actually saw the work they changed it to Osborne.

Which kind of brings to mind what are these editors thinking when they have a story half finished, then start screaming change it? Why didn't they think of this stuff ahead of time?
CES
Well afaik they looked like Pete and Gwen. Cause kids look exactly like their parent's arch enemies.

And the boy became a Green Goblin. Dunno what happened with the girl

[input.jack]

Dunno what happened with the girl

Check the refrigerator... :mad:

[DocSamson]

Check the refrigerator... :mad:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_refrigerators

[NestorDRod]

'Cause someone just has to say it...

Pretty much every current plotline in every book DC and Marvel are putting out.

Why I don't read them at all any more. :(

Yeah, yeah, I know, each one of you will point to this book or that and say, "But this one is good!"

To me, those are just the exceptions that prove the rule. The two companies no longer publish comics for the stories; they're just marketing tools to pimp their other stuff (movies, toys, etc.) There's no love for the source material, and it shows... :mad:

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Oh...there's been plenty of dumb things in comics...but...as I'm reading this set of issues right now...I'll say this one....Mutant Massacre. A bunch of supposedly great professional killers(who nobody has ever heard of-yeah right) manage to kill a bunch of no-name Morlocks. That's right....read it closely....not a single Morlock with a code name actually dies. Some massacre...and it features annoying things like the "powering up" of Sabretooth(both in terms of actual ability and character importance). At one point he takes a full power blast from Cyclops and gets up in like under a minute. Uh HUH! Right. The brilliant explanation...." that chump didn't count on my healing factor." Yawn....stupid. Too many other annoyances to list here, but it was the start of "events" every year...which we still suffer from today.

Rob

[FenrisUlf]

FYI, the Beyonder was an intelligent *universe* that happened to notice the Marvel Universe next door, and decided to see what he could do to make it more interesting.

Midas

Did he ultimately incarnate as Joe Quesada, just to get even with the heroes?

[Lord Liaden]

One I just mentioned in an earlier post. Secret Wars, dog pile on Beyonder. Hulk and She Hulk are pounding away with every ounce of strength. Thor is throwing Mjollnr as hard as he possibly can. And Captain America decides he can make an iota of difference in the fight by flinging his shield at the Beyonder.

At least it wasn't a Batarang. ;)

[ParagonAlpha]

Oh...there's been plenty of dumb things in comics...but...as I'm reading this set of issues right now...I'll say this one....Mutant Massacre. A bunch of supposedly great professional killers(who nobody has ever heard of-yeah right) manage to kill a bunch of no-name Morlocks. That's right....read it closely....not a single Morlock with a code name actually dies. Some massacre...and it features annoying things like the "powering up" of Sabretooth(both in terms of actual ability and character importance). At one point he takes a full power blast from Cyclops and gets up in like under a minute. Uh HUH! Right. The brilliant explanation...." that chump didn't count on my healing factor." Yawn....stupid. Too many other annoyances to list here, but it was the start of "events" every year...which we still suffer from today.

Rob

Don't forget years later that this was also Gambit's (second lamest X-man ever) horrible secret. That he unlocked the door to the Morlock tunnels.

[ParagonAlpha]

One I just mentioned in an earlier post. Secret Wars, dog pile on Beyonder. Hulk and She Hulk are pounding away with every ounce of strength. Thor is throwing Mjollnr as hard as he possibly can. And Captain America decides he can make an iota of difference in the fight by flinging his shield at the Beyonder.

FYI, the Beyonder was an intelligent *universe* that happened to notice the Marvel Universe next door, and decided to see what he could do to make it more interesting.

Midas

Secret Wars was a masterpiece in comic book literature compared to Secret Wars II.

[Stone]

My votes are for Batman and Wolverine. The two most over-rated, over-powered, and over-used characters of Marvel & DC. Batman has gone from detective to facing off with Darksied, and Wolverine has gone from barley non-physco to samurai trained super-spy. Lame.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Don't forget years later that this was also Gambit's (second lamest X-man ever) horrible secret. That he unlocked the door to the Morlock tunnels.

Are you kidding me?(Seriously, was not aware of that.) That's even dumber. The Morlocks weren't on lockdown or anything and they weren't that well kept a secret either. And The Marauders hardly needed a "key" to reach them. Ugh....my brain hurts...

Rob

[death tribble]

As a long term reader of the X-Men I can assure you that it is true. Gambit is indeed lame. Oh sorry yeah the deep dark secret is that he unlocked the tunnels so that the Marauders could get in. Actually I liked the story line it was what came afterwards that undermined it.

[lemming]

Damn kids. Get off my lawn.

[Clonus]

One I just mentioned in an earlier post. Secret Wars, dog pile on Beyonder. Hulk and She Hulk are pounding away with every ounce of strength. Thor is throwing Mjollnr as hard as he possibly can. And Captain America decides he can make an iota of difference in the fight by flinging his shield at the Beyonder.



I don't see the problem with that. It's worth a try. Maybe the other guys would have succeeded in battering down the Beyonder's forcefield. Maybe the Beyonder would just turn out to be allergic to vibranium. Champions has coordinated attacks just so weaker characters can in theory contribute versus characters with defenses too high to be hurt, just like in the comic books, right?

[Jhamin]

How about the plotline where it was revealed that Tony Stark had been the mind-control slave of Kang for several years, then died, then was replaced by a 15 year old version of himself from an alternate dimension?

"Iron Kid" actually lasted in continuity for most of a year before Heros Reborn rebooted him.

And it burned.

[Iuz the Evil]

I'm going to cast my lot for:

Civil War.

Spider-Clone.

Hawkeye's Stupid Death.

The "Iron Age on Steroids" of the 1990s ("get me a bandoleer and huge shoulderpads a la Liefield please").

Recurrent return of villains/heroes who have been happily dead for decades (Phoenix/Green Goblin, I'm looking in your direction).

[Midas]

Secret Wars was a masterpiece in comic book literature compared to Secret Wars II.

No love for Bert Convy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bert_Convy

(For the baffled reader, The Beyonder as drawn in SW II had a marked resemblance to the game show host).

Midas

[Midas]

(re Captain America trying to take out Beyonder with his shield)


I don't see the problem with that. It's worth a try. Maybe the other guys would have succeeded in battering down the Beyonder's forcefield. Maybe the Beyonder would just turn out to be allergic to vibranium. Champions has coordinated attacks just so weaker characters can in theory contribute versus characters with defenses too high to be hurt, just like in the comic books, right?

Really? Don't recall that rule (but I've not studied 5ER to the point of knowing it like I would if running a game).

Story wise, it was way too early in the plot for a surprise like that. And even so, in the next panel, the Marvel Bricks were still pounding away.

OK, Beyonder was a totally, literally, cosmic villain: As much PD and CON as he wanted, knockback resistance of -1000 or so ;) , etc. So after four of the heaviest bricks in Marvel Universe (Thing was there too), did little more than get his attention, what was a glorified hubcab going to accomplish? :rolleyes:

Granted, the shield *could* have done something unforeseen and useful, but even in Superheroic fiction, I wouldn't have bet much on it.

Midas

[Vanguard]

My votes are for Batman and Wolverine. The two most over-rated, over-powered, and over-used characters of Marvel & DC. Batman has gone from detective to facing off with Darksied, and Wolverine has gone from barley non-physco to samurai trained super-spy. Lame.

And just why is this lame? Is it because they didn't stick with the original "barely non-psycho" part or that they later developed him into a samurai trained super spy?

Honestly folks I'm getting sick of people bashing on Wolvie just because he happens to be a popular character. Yes, they've some done some REALLY dumb things with him (his "Origin" specifically is the one that I don't like) but that can be said for just about every comic book character out there.

Question for ya Liaden, are you upset about the whole "Lobo vs Wolvie" thing because Wolvie won of because they didn't actually show the fight?

Ok, enough ranting about Wolvie . . . sorry guys.

My personal fav is the Punisher that is now "The soldier of God with access to God's arsenal". (Oh and he can't kill people either) <shudder>

[Brogahn]

Please Forgive me but I am going to open up my scope a lil bit.

The disasterous 7 who formed IMAGE COMICS (Mostly Artist who must have thought writing was easy) save for Savage Dragon... I found it entertaining if not always tasteful.

Whatever acclaim did to Valiant Comics.

Spider Clone Saga
This New Spiderman is the embodiement of some spider spirit hocus BS!
Anything Infinity after Gauntlet (omg did that get beat into the ground)

uhm canceling Justice League Unlimited (I was enjoying it as I was not a true devotee of the DCU it gave me a very nice overview)

Wolverine back stories which are actually implanted memories.

Endless Retcons...

Ty
Brogahn

[JackValhalla]

House of M. May it die of burning cancer.

And the Magnus Robot Fighter reprints of the nineties after the first year. That was a pretty sharp decline.

[Enforcer84]

And just why is this lame? Is it because they didn't stick with the original "barely non-psycho" part or that they later developed him into a samurai trained super spy?

Honestly folks I'm getting sick of people bashing on Wolvie just because he happens to be a popular character. Yes, they've some done some REALLY dumb things with him (his "Origin" specifically is the one that I don't like) but that can be said for just about every comic book character out there.

Question for ya Liaden, are you upset about the whole "Lobo vs Wolvie" thing because Wolvie won of because they didn't actually show the fight?

Ok, enough ranting about Wolvie . . . sorry guys.

My personal fav is the Punisher that is now "The soldier of God with access to God's arsenal". (Oh and he can't kill people either) <shudder>
Wolverine is so overexposed in marvel (or at least was in the 90's) that it wasn't even funny. And so many x-men problems were solved by the incredible Bub Snikt that it was laughable.

I thought the beastial man becoming a samurai bit was cool.
I'm less enthused by the 100 year old superspy fought alongside everyone throught the ages and is totally unbeatable except when he's not.

[Wormhole]

Spiderman accidently killing Gwen in such a way that it would have required Ol' Petey to have the I.Q. of a bananna peel. Enough said.

[Korvar]

I've always wanted to somehow rewrite that Wolverine/Lobo "fight" into a drinking contest - they both realise the whole fight thing is ridiculous, so why not settle it with beer?

Of course, it's still silly that Wolvie wins, but at least that would have been amusing...

[FenrisUlf]

My personal fav is the Punisher that is now "The soldier of God with access to God's arsenal". (Oh and he can't kill people either) <shudder>

The hell??? :nonp:

Okay, now I know you guys are just making some of this stuff up.

[Whitewings]

This New Spiderman is the embodiement of some spider spirit hocus BS!

It's not new. It goes back to 1979, actually, and has come up since then at least once. I can't comment on how dumb the current implementation might or might not be, since I don't follow Spider-Man.

[Greywind]

Spiderman accidently killing Gwen in such a way that it would have required Ol' Petey to have the I.Q. of a bananna peel. Enough said.
Sorry, but that goes all the way back to ASM 120. And for the most part, Peter wasn't aware that he was the one that killed her. He always blamed the Goblin.

[Greywind]

The hell??? :nonp:

Okay, now I know you guys are just making some of this stuff up.If only...

[Hugh Neilson]

Sorry, but that goes all the way back to ASM 120. And for the most part, Peter wasn't aware that he was the one that killed her. He always blamed the Goblin.

ASM 120 asserted that the urban myth that a person in a long fall dies before hitting bottom was true, and that Gwen was already dead when Spidey caught her. Under that (pre-retconning) interpretation, Spidey didn't kill her - the Goblin did.

[JimLotFP]

ASM 120 asserted that the urban myth that a person in a long fall dies before hitting bottom was true, and that Gwen was already dead when Spidey caught her. Under that (pre-retconning) interpretation, Spidey didn't kill her - the Goblin did.

ASM 121 is where it happens...

When Spidey tries catching her with the webbing (snaring her legs), there is a "snap" sound effect by her head.

And it was the Goblin, not Spiderman or a narrator caption, that was pushing the idea of "dead before hitting bottom," so he was taking credit for the death at least.

[nexus]

It's not new. It goes back to 1979, actually, and has come up since then at least once. I can't comment on how dumb the current implementation might or might not be, since I don't follow Spider-Man.

An old bad idea is still a bad idea. Garbage doesn't improve with age after all. But then the again they've given spider man poisonously radative...body fluids in one alternate fluids in one time line...

[Stone]

And just why is this lame? Is it because they didn't stick with the original "barely non-psycho" part or that they later developed him into a samurai trained super spy?

Honestly folks I'm getting sick of people bashing on Wolvie just because he happens to be a popular character. Yes, they've some done some REALLY dumb things with him (his "Origin" specifically is the one that I don't like) but that can be said for just about every comic book character out there.

Question for ya Liaden, are you upset about the whole "Lobo vs Wolvie" thing because Wolvie won of because they didn't actually show the fight?

Ok, enough ranting about Wolvie . . . sorry guys.

My personal fav is the Punisher that is now "The soldier of God with access to God's arsenal". (Oh and he can't kill people either) <shudder>


No. My gripe with Wolvie's change is that he was much more interesting to read back when he was barely psycho. You never knew if the new challenge was going to push him over the edge. When Clairmont/Byrne/Austin were doing this X-men, the series was at its best IMO. I think the writers tried to take a character who growing in popularity thanks to Byrne liking to draw him, and tried to make him into everything cool. Which IMO makes him lame.

If you like Wolvie, great enjoy. I don't.

[Arac-4105]

My vote is for the retconning of the latest Superboy to be a clone of Superman and Lex g*ddamn Luthor. For the love of somebody, can't people leave well enough alone? And the developing "Kryptonian" powers took away the one thing that made him interesting -- his super telekinesis. I happily would have paid $3.00 an issue for several years to watch The Kid grow up to be his own hero, honoring the Big Blue Boy-Scout but becoming his own man as well.

My second nomination has to be whatever crossover storyline DC ran that had the adults become kids and the sidekicks become adults. :p

[nexus]

(re Captain America trying to take out Beyonder with his shield)

Really? Don't recall that rule (but I've not studied 5ER to the point of knowing it like I would if running a game).

Story wise, it was way too early in the plot for a surprise like that. And even so, in the next panel, the Marvel Bricks were still pounding away.

OK, Beyonder was a totally, literally, cosmic villain: As much PD and CON as he wanted, knockback resistance of -1000 or so ;) , etc. So after four of the heaviest bricks in Marvel Universe (Thing was there too), did little more than get his attention, what was a glorified hubcab going to accomplish? :rolleyes:

Granted, the shield *could* have done something unforeseen and useful, but even in Superheroic fiction, I wouldn't have bet much on it.

Midas

Well, what else was he going to do? Where there other options available that would have been more effective? Was it just a desperation thing? Did Cap doing it actually make the situation any worse? Serious questions, since I'm only mariginally familiar with Secret Wars. It sounds like he was taking a "what the h**?" shot. If it didn't hurt anything then it was better than standing there not doing anything at all or just giving up (from a purely game perspective, there's no way to tell if some minute damage isn't seeping through from the combined hits and every little bit helps, maybe the Beyonder has Damage Reduction. :) )

Cap has always been a never give up/go down swinging type. In The Infinity Gauntlet storyline, after the heavy hitters had failed, his sheild was shattered, he still took a swing as Thanos, probably well aware it would do nothing but he was going to die anyway so it was an act of defiance (and probably some desperation as well). That attitude has been one of the things that's helped him triumph against overwhelming odds in the past instead of just sitting out when things look grim. If there were other significant options, I agree it was pretty silly for Cap to resort to the shield.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

And Cap is after all, the God of Winning.

[Midas]

Well, what else was he going to do? Where there other options available that would have been more effective? Was it just a desperation thing? Did Cap doing it actually make the situation any worse? Serious questions, since I'm only mariginally familiar with Secret Wars. It sounds like he was taking a "what the h**?" shot. If it didn't hurt anything then it was better than standing there not doing anything at all or just giving up (from a purely game perspective, there's no way to tell if some minute damage isn't seeping through from the combined hits and every little bit helps, maybe the Beyonder has Damage Reduction. :) )

<snip>If there were other significant options, I agree it was pretty silly for Cap to resort to the shield.

Well, like I said, it was "dogpile on Beyonder." Everybody who was anybody in the Marvel Universe was there. And *everybody* was drawn as getting their perferred licks in. Professor X might have been hurling Ego blasts or whatever he calls them. ;) So it was a a drawing of everyone in the fight doing something they could. The "cap could have done something" idea works if there had been a thought balloon or narration saying something about "One last desperate chance..." As it was, Cap was an extra, looking busy instead of standing there like a pole, which was a good thing. It was particularly galling because later in the free for all battles, characters would be in the midst of a fight, then in the next frame, had been knocked out (Shulkie had that problem). If Cap had nothing to do, keep him off screen to keep him from looking silly.

For comparison, I'm not familiar with Lobo, but I take it that Wolverine was totally outclassed? Similar deal here. I think the howls would have been long and loud if a normal had taken out a cosmic character.

Because mine are burried deeply in long storage, could some one else see if they can find and post the scene in question? If you see the frame, maybe it will make sense.

Then again, what I find absurd unknamed regular poster others will undoubtably find perfectly reasonable. :eg:

Midas

[Matt Frisbee]

1) Matt Murdock's evil twin skippy Mike Murdock (which was Matt's way of explaining Daredevil's "Secret Identity" for a while).

2) Fascination by Superman writers of coming up special effects for "different colored kryptonite" and "different types of sunlight" to handicap him for various galactic challenges.

3) The whole symbiote storyline(s) in Spiderman as an explanation for a costume change, instead of saying that the artists were tired of drawing all the details on the old costume.

4) The New Warriors ripping off the Avengers' Quin-Jet. (Funny, though.)

5) The Fantastic Four having their very public headquarters in downtown Manhattan -- with other tenants in the same building -- and still being able to afford both rent and insurance premiums...

Matt "Funkiller" Frisbee

[Greywind]

My vote is for the retconning of the latest Superboy to be a clone of Superman and Lex g*ddamn Luthor. For the love of somebody, can't people leave well enough alone? And the developing "Kryptonian" powers took away the one thing that made him interesting -- his super telekinesis. I happily would have paid $3.00 an issue for several years to watch The Kid grow up to be his own hero, honoring the Big Blue Boy-Scout but becoming his own man as well.That wasn't so much of a "retcon". It was stated from the beginning that they mixed Superman's DNA with human DNA to make the cloning possible.

Being in Metropolis, it only makes sense that Lex had his fingers in Project Cadmus.

[MilkmanDan]

Secret Wars was a masterpiece in comic book literature compared to Secret Wars II.

I actually still like Secret Wars. Yeah, it's silly escapism and has a goofy premise even for comic books, but I liked it when it came out and it's still fun to relive those teenage memories.

Secret Wars II, on the other hand, was . . . how do you describe something that features a supposedly omnipotent being who gets taught how to pee by your favorite superhero? That was the time I really stopped buying comics because it was just so asinine.

[Brandi]

You know, I realize I forgot to elaborate on just *why* "The Draco" was the dumbest thing. Anyone care enough for me to do a summary for them?

[transmetahuman]

You know, I realize I forgot to elaborate on just *why* "The Draco" was the dumbest thing. Anyone care enough for me to do a summary for them?
I have no idea what the Draco is (except a spaceport tavern in Siberia that I don't think has been turned into a comic)... but sure, I'm game.

Edit: A quick trip to Wiki and... wow. I think I know what you mean, in both senses. But go ahead anyway. :)

[Hermit]

I actually still like Secret Wars. Yeah, it's silly escapism and has a goofy premise even for comic books, but I liked it when it came out and it's still fun to relive those teenage memories.

Secret Wars II, on the other hand, was . . . how do you describe something that features a supposedly omnipotent being who gets taught how to pee by your favorite superhero? That was the time I really stopped buying comics because it was just so asinine.

I agree. Secret Wars I was a fun romp, with some truly awesome moments for Doom.

Secret Wars II?
erk.

[BoloOfEarth]

My vote for "truly stupid" goes to the issue of Marvel Team Up where Hercules towed the island of Manhattan back into place with a *big* chain (someone moved the whole island, but I can't remember who or why or how). IIRC, I don't think the issue was done as parody or humor (like the MTU with Aunt May as Golden Oldie, teamed up with a young Franklin Richards to keep Galactus from eating Earth), and I don't believe it was Assistant Editor's Month either. Just plain dumb.

[Lord Mhoram]

What Marvel did to the Ultraverse, after they bought it.

The Punisher. Just his existing.

Turning wolverine back into a psycho after his turning samurai. The character final got some growth, and really became interesting and then "RARRRR!" again. Stupid.

Byrne getting rid of Superboy - for what it did to the Legion.
Legion - 5 years later. ick.

Mutant hysteria.... that has been a major plotline for the X people for how long? 40 years... sheesh move on.

I agree about Image itslef existing.

[Lord Mhoram]

My vote for "truly stupid" goes to the issue of Marvel Team Up where Hercules towed the island of Manhattan back into place with a *big* chain

That was one of the things I liked when the JLA dragged the moon through the atmosphere of earth during the White Martial storyline.... It took all the powerhouses, the chain was from Green Lantern, and the mages where stopping the tidal effects, and holding the moon together. :)

[AdamLeisemann]

5) The Fantastic Four having their very public headquarters in downtown Manhattan -- with other tenants in the same building -- and still being able to afford both rent and insurance premiums...

Matt "Funkiller" Frisbee

Apartments are cheaper than houses, which saves money for all the devices that Reed Richards keeps building.

[Brandi]

Edit: A quick trip to Wiki and... wow. I think I know what you mean, in both senses. But go ahead anyway. :)

I also realize that while "The Draco" is a stupid, wretched storyline, the one I was actually thinking of was called "Holy War" ("The Draco" was partially intertwined with it, hence the confusion):

My knowledge of the story is a mix of Wiki and scans_daily, but the upshot of it is that some anti-mutant apocalyptic group tries to convince people that the End Times are coming by a) greasing the skids for Nightcrawler (now a priest) to become Pope for the sole purpose of unmasking him as the Antichrist and b) faking the Rapture by creating fake hosts that would instantly vaporize those taking Communion with them.

I'm not making this up, you know.

Never mind that Catholics do not support the doctrine of the Rapture and that the subset of Protestantism who *does* believe in the Rapture have a strong tendency to believe that Catholics are not Real True Christians (to use Fred Clark's lovely turn of phrase) and therefore would not be raptured up.

I'm actually atheist myself, and do not know Chuck Austen's beliefs, but the phrase "Stop making my side look stupid" comes to mind-- following the groin kick he deserves for inflicting such obnoxious storylines on one of my favorite X-Men.

[Hugh Neilson]

My vote for "truly stupid" goes to the issue of Marvel Team Up where Hercules towed the island of Manhattan back into place with a *big* chain (someone moved the whole island, but I can't remember who or why or how). IIRC, I don't think the issue was done as parody or humor (like the MTU with Aunt May as Golden Oldie, teamed up with a young Franklin Richards to keep Galactus from eating Earth), and I don't believe it was Assistant Editor's Month either. Just plain dumb.

Ahhh yes...add to that the fact that the channel is actually narrower than the island, so it could not be dragged back in, and the fact that the artist drew it dragged in backwards to its original orientation.

It was not Assistant Editor's Month. Years later, Assistant Editors Month revealed this wasn't a real Marvel event, but a tall tale spun by Herc himself.

[Arac-4105]

That wasn't so much of a "retcon". It was stated from the beginning that they mixed Superman's DNA with human DNA to make the cloning possible.

Being in Metropolis, it only makes sense that Lex had his fingers in Project Cadmus.

Uhm, actually no. In the very first issue dealing with that Superboy's origins, it was said emphatically by a member of the scientific team that was responsible, that they could not get a sample of Superman's DNA. Superboy was totally human and his powers were the result of some very sophisticated gene-twanking.

(BTW: I'm cut off from my source material, so could I ask anybody to verify this for me? Thanks!)

[Greywind]

But you aren't denying the possibility of Lex somehow being a part of said scientific team?

[Oruncrest]

But you aren't denying the possibility of Lex somehow being a part of said scientific team?

I can. Shortly after Superboy appeared (Adventures of Superman 501, I believe), Lex was grilling his spy in Cadmus. He was mad as a hornet because he'd been told (by said spy) that Cadmus couldn't clone Superman's DNA. Then the spy explained what Cadmus really did (the readers weren't privy to this information of course).

[Arac-4105]

But you aren't denying the possibility of Lex somehow being a part of said scientific team?

No, I am not denying that Lex "I 0wnz j00" Luthor could have tampered with Superboy's cloning process. I'm just denying that Superman's DNA was used in the mix.

edit: Props to Oruncrest for tracking down some more info.

[BoloOfEarth]

Ahhh yes...add to that the fact that the channel is actually narrower than the island, so it could not be dragged back in, and the fact that the artist drew it dragged in backwards to its original orientation.

It was not Assistant Editor's Month. Years later, Assistant Editors Month revealed this wasn't a real Marvel event, but a tall tale spun by Herc himself.

At the time, however, they weren't presenting it as a tall tale, but as a real event.

[MilkmanDan]

Storm becoming an uber-fighter without her powers. Sure, I can understand that as a street kid you'd need to learn to take care of yourself, but I somehow doubt that your average twelve-year-old urchin is some kind of unstoppable knife-fighter. Bad enough that she managed to beat Cyclops for team leadership of the X-Men, but beating Callisto in a knife fight? WTF?

I guess I could add the whole "Storm getting a mohawk and becoming reckless" schtick as well, but the fighting aspect never made sense.

[Brogahn]

two things about Storm as uber fighter and this is only opinion....

1.) I think she recieved a lot of off page combat training from Wolverine.

2.) I like how Ra's Al Ghul put it in Batman Begins ".....training is nothing! Will is everything." I think she had some training and she has proven again and again taht she has the will to fight, win, die and overcome.

Brogahn

[Enforcer84]

Storm becoming an uber-fighter without her powers. Sure, I can understand that as a street kid you'd need to learn to take care of yourself, but I somehow doubt that your average twelve-year-old urchin is some kind of unstoppable knife-fighter. Bad enough that she managed to beat Cyclops for team leadership of the X-Men, but beating Callisto in a knife fight? WTF?

I guess I could add the whole "Storm getting a mohawk and becoming reckless" schtick as well, but the fighting aspect never made sense.
Of course Storm was a great fighter without her powers, this was Clairmont and she had boobs!

The ones with the boobs always come out better with Clairmont.

[death tribble]

I second the notion about Marvel screwing up the Ultraverse.
No Strangers which was a comic I loved
And what they did to Mantra was criminal

[teh bunneh]

Of course Storm was a great fighter without her powers, this was Clairmont and she had boobs!

The ones with the boobs always come out better with Clairmont.

Yup, she was one of Claremont's many Mary Sues (along with Psylocke, Rogue, Sage, Rachel-Phoenix, etc)... :rolleyes:

[MilkmanDan]

Yup, she was one of Claremont's many Mary Sues (along with Psylocke, Rogue, Sage, Rachel-Phoenix, etc)... :rolleyes:

Is there a reason to list individual females, as opposed to E84's more accurate "anyone with boobs"?

Boobs are, in Hero terms, a big VPP. Well, two big VPPs, the point values of each apparently being higher as cup size grows.

[TheRealVector]

Is there a reason to list individual females, as opposed to E84's more accurate "anyone with boobs"?

Boobs are, in Hero terms, a big VPP. Well, two big VPPs, the point values of each apparently being higher as cup size grows.

I think this also works in RPGs for many GMs. :D

[Lord Mhoram]

Of course Storm was a great fighter without her powers, this was Clairmont and she had boobs!

The ones with the boobs always come out better with Clairmont.

Yeah, even in his novels.

[Lord Mhoram]

And what they did to Mantra was criminal

Yes. Completely.

[FenrisUlf]

Boobs are, in Hero terms, a big VPP. Well, two big VPPs, the point values of each apparently being higher as cup size grows.

OT: How do we write up a "Breasts: Reduce Men to Drooling Idiots" power in Hero terms?

Mind Control?

BOECV Entangle?

Continuous Drain vs. DEX and INT (He's not just dumber, he just stands there and lets her pound on him).

Any further ideas?

Oh yes, and BTW, I also thought the whole 'Storm and her Mohawk' look was just awful. I am so glad they gave her a full head of hair again.

[MilkmanDan]

Aid to COM plus Mind Control linked to Ego Drain.