Looking for House rule suggestion

[nexus]

I have a gm that is trying to come up with some House rules to make Endurance expenditure have more impact in Heroic level games. He doesn't like how long characters can keep going without fatigue.



As an example, under standard rules, assuming no loss of Stun, a 13 Str, 13 Con character with a 3 speed would last about 10 Turns - slightly under a minute - going full blast for every phase and recovering at post 12. If he takes 1 phase to recover every other turn, he suddenly doesn't have to stop, ever.


I don't see it as much of a problem for a few reasons, but he's the GM and I wanted to see if anyone here had any suggestions.

Edit:
His current idea is



I'm considering implementing a special Recovery rule, in place of trying to keep track of Long Term End, and I would like your thoughts on it.



While heroic in nature, the Thousand Kingdoms are not cinematic. Characters will get tired, they will have no choice but to rest occasionally, and the exhaustion brought on by magic is not quickly recovered. Not wanting to deal with Hero’s Long Term Endurance rules, my answer is much simpler. Characters receive ‘free’ recoveries only at the end of 5 minutes, instead of Post-Segment 12. Thus, an average human would require fifteen minutes to recover from a major (10-12 pts) Endurance expenditure. Characters may still, during combat time, spend their phase taking a recovery as normal.

[Cancer]

I can see his concern: I'm not certain I've ever played a combat where available END became a problem for PCs. STUN and BODY, yes, Charges, certainly; END, no.

[Lemurion]

END really only matters in Superheroic games. It's usually not a problem in Heroic level and few of those last long enough for it to really seem odd that the person would not run out of END.

[Edsel]

13 STR used every phase of a heroic game will cost 3 END, if you half move every phase that's another 1 END. 4x3 = 12 END used and you recover 6 so you use 6 of your 26 per turn. You'll get just past the start of turn 4 before you are in trouble END wise. Combats lasting 4 turns are not uncommon in my heroic Dark Champions games and I have had numerous instances of PCs running out of END during the game. We use the EGO roll to push rule so pushing is not uncommon especially when hand to hand combat breaks out.

In our Fantasy Hero games most players try to buy either some extra END or extra REC since they run out of END at an alarming rate using the full encumbrance rules and there is a lot of pushing going on.

Sorry, not many answers to your original question. I just found it surprising that END is rarely an issue in heroic games for you two.

All in all I'd say the use of the EGO roll Push rule causes most of our players to burn END at a rapid rate.

[Hyper-Man]

One option might be to segregate REC going towards END via the Time Chart.

Allow characters to apply normal phase 12 recoveries to END per Turn for 1 minute. After that they only get the auto recovery per minute. After 5 minutes it scales to 1/5 minutes etc... . The characters could then still apply regular recoveries that burn actions towards END and also go to 0 END and rely upon STUN as a temporary (and dangerous) replacement for END.

[Dead guy on tab]

Why not go back to the old pre-4th ed rules (1 END/5 active points). You could also enforce the 1 END for being active (otherwise 1/2 DCV) and no recoveries if you take damage that phase . I did this for a pulp supers game and END does become important. If that doesn't work, he could increase the END/Active points to tune it to where he wants it.
Looking at your example, it appears that the character uses 92 END in 10 Turns (+66 END for 11 Post-12 Recoveries). Which works out to ~3 END/action. If you double the END costs, the character would be able to go
only 2 Turns before running out of END with each action costing 6 END instead of 3 END.

[lemming]

Our games ran more like Edsel's as well.

[nexus]

Was the rule for 1 endurance per phase to stay "active" in addition to other endurance expenditures or a minimum?

[Sean Waters]

I don't think that a 'fresh' character should have a problem going for quite some time without having to stop - the example of the 13 STR 13 CON SPD 3 character lasting for 10 turns flat out sounds, if anything, probably not long enough. Part of the problem is that, in Hero combat, it always seems as if more time has poassed than it has - most combats don't last 30 seconds.

No, if I have a problem with END, it is that you can go from exhausted to fresh in no time at all.

The solution to that is Long Term End, but that is a bit cumbersome to administer, so here is an easy LTE idea that might help.

When I record END (and for that matter STUN and BODY) I do so with little circles, like this:

25 END 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000

When you use END, make a slash throught he appropriate number of circles: /

At PS 12, recover as normal.

Here's the idea: at PS 12 ALL END YOU HAVE NOT RECOVERED BECOMES LTE. Record this by rubbing out REC slashes, and make a second slash through all remaining reduced END: \.

All LTE is therefore recorded as a cross.

LTE recovers at REC per minute (or whatever you feel is appropriate).

This means that if you are just jogging along, or taking additional phases to recover, you can keep going for a long time, but LTE will quickly accumulate if you are exceeding your normal ability to recover, and that does not go away so quickly.

The effect is you can still go on for 10 turns, but by the end of that, almost all your END will be long term. This means that after a period of intense exercise you need quite a long break before you are fully recovered, which seems realistic.

You may wish to also stipulate that in any turn in which your END expenditure exceeds half your REC, you generate at least 1 LTE.

You may also wish to stipulate that if you do not stop for food and rest, the recovery period for LTE goes up the time chart: REC per minute, normally, but if you miss a two meals it goes up to 1 per 5 minutes, and if you miss a night's sleep it goes up to 1 per 20 minutes (or whatever) thus simulating a 'second layer' of LTE, you might want to call Long Term Exhaustion.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Sean, excellent LTE system. I will have to borrow that concept, and rep you when it lets me again.

Nexus, if your GM wants people to get tired quickly, don't forget encumbrance rules. It doesn't take a lot of equipment and armor to make a character rapidly burn through END in combat.

If that still isn't enough consider only allowing recoveries if the character makes a CON roll. For each step up the time chart you get a +1 to your roll. I have done this for characters who were sick or poisoned to represent them tiring out faster; the effect is not enough to keep the character from acting, but they do have to be more careful.

__________________________________________________ ________
So don't smile so wide for that lens
The cross-hairs are not your friends
*click click*
- Beauty Pill

[Hugh Neilson]

I don't think that a 'fresh' character should have a problem going for quite some time without having to stop - the example of the 13 STR 13 CON SPD 3 character lasting for 10 turns flat out sounds, if anything, probably not long enough. Part of the problem is that, in Hero combat, it always seems as if more time has poassed than it has - most combats don't last 30 seconds.

This is an excellent point. If characters can last 10 turns without running into END problems, that means they can go full bore for about 2 minutes. That doesn't seem unreasonable for a physically fit individual who regularly engages in intensive exercise.

[PhilFleischmann]

A number of good suggestions here. Any one of which might work, depending on the type of game and how long your combats typically take.

Here's one I thought of: On each Post-12 Recovery, the players must choose to gain back their REC in STUN, *OR* their REC in END, but NOT BOTH!

For a harsher variant, you could say this applies to ALL recoveries, not just Post-12.

[nexus]

I think he's overrreacting and trying to represent mechanically a trope that's largely cosmetic in most action ficture (the beaten and battered hero pushes onward) since Stun and Endurance in Hero represent many things. They're an abstraction. You can get some odd situations like the incident in another thread where the PC just kept dodging for 15-20 minutes straight and since their DCV was so high, they couldn't be hit, Dodging costs no endurance (or 1) so their recovery handled it and their opponent couldn't him them.

[Vanguard]

Honestly, we only really keep track of End in our Gatecrasher and Dragonstar games when it concerns special abilities like Magic or other things.

For things like Running and using Str (unless it's a herculean effort or some such thing like that) we just don't bother.

Oh and Pushing of course . . Thanks Edsel. :)

[Vanguard]

I think he's overrreacting and trying to represent mechanically a trope that's largely cosmetic in most action ficture (the beaten and battered hero pushes onward) since Stun and Endurance in Hero represent many things. They're an abstraction. You can get some odd situations like the incident in another thread where the PC just kept dodging for 15-20 minutes straight and since their DCV was so high, they couldn't be hit, Dodging costs no endurance (or 1) so their recovery handled it and their opponent couldn't him them.

Sounds like you're right Nexus.

If he's trying to go for the beat up and bloody warriors that are still slogging towards the Helm's Deep, then he's trying to model it the wrong way. End and Stun aren't the way to go. Not sure what is to be honest.

What he should do, if he REALLY wants to try and model that is start imposing skill/CV penalties based on how many fights your guys get into one right after another.

Otherwise, it's just purely cosmetic, as you say.

[Captain Obvious]

I don't think that a 'fresh' character should have a problem going for quite some time without having to stop - the example of the 13 STR 13 CON SPD 3 character lasting for 10 turns flat out sounds, if anything, probably not long enough. Part of the problem is that, in Hero combat, it always seems as if more time has poassed than it has - most combats don't last 30 seconds.

No, if I have a problem with END, it is that you can go from exhausted to fresh in no time at all.

The solution to that is Long Term End, but that is a bit cumbersome to administer, so here is an easy LTE idea that might help.

When I record END (and for that matter STUN and BODY) I do so with little circles, like this:

25 END 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000

When you use END, make a slash throught he appropriate number of circles: /

At PS 12, recover as normal.

Here's the idea: at PS 12 ALL END YOU HAVE NOT RECOVERED BECOMES LTE. Record this by rubbing out REC slashes, and make a second slash through all remaining reduced END: \.

All LTE is therefore recorded as a cross.

LTE recovers at REC per minute (or whatever you feel is appropriate).

This means that if you are just jogging along, or taking additional phases to recover, you can keep going for a long time, but LTE will quickly accumulate if you are exceeding your normal ability to recover, and that does not go away so quickly.

The effect is you can still go on for 10 turns, but by the end of that, almost all your END will be long term. This means that after a period of intense exercise you need quite a long break before you are fully recovered, which seems realistic.

You may wish to also stipulate that in any turn in which your END expenditure exceeds half your REC, you generate at least 1 LTE.

You may also wish to stipulate that if you do not stop for food and rest, the recovery period for LTE goes up the time chart: REC per minute, normally, but if you miss a two meals it goes up to 1 per 5 minutes, and if you miss a night's sleep it goes up to 1 per 20 minutes (or whatever) thus simulating a 'second layer' of LTE, you might want to call Long Term Exhaustion.

I don't recall repping you lately, but apparently I have. Nice system.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Frankly, I think in the vast majority of non-superheroic games, End should't be kept track of at all. It adds bookkeeping, which automatically lessens fun, and is usually nonrepresentative of the genre. Sure, in novels it's cool when the exhausted heroes slog their way through the wilderness and have to fight a horrific battle with the last vestiges of their strength, but in a game do you really want to burn all your Stun as End in the climactic battle cause you're down 20 LTE?

Neither do I.

[nexus]

Frankly, I think in the vast majority of non-superheroic games, End should't be kept track of at all. It adds bookkeeping, which automatically lessens fun, and is usually nonrepresentative of the genre. Sure, in novels it's cool when the exhausted heroes slog their way through the wilderness and have to fight a horrific battle with the last vestiges of their strength, but in a game do you really want to burn all your Stun as End in the climactic battle cause you're down 20 LTE?


Honestly, it depends on what genre and tone the game is supposed to be emulating, for some its entirely appropriate.

[Frenchman]

I like Sean Water's approach, but I think I'll avoid drawing out 30-40 circles each combat to keep track of end :winkgrin:

Mostly I'm posting to refer y'all to this thread:
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58013

and I'll repost my bit of it 'cuz I happen to quite like it.



Get rid of automatic recoveries entirely, and only give recoveries for time that the characters spend deliberately resting - how about 1 REC for every hour rested? Since most characters have around a 1:5 ratio of REC:END/STUN this will let them recover all of their Stun and END with a nights rest, even if they do have to take a 2-hour watch.
You eliminate in-combat recoveries, or let characters take a smaller one with a CON or Body roll - maybe they can take a combat recovery (only in combat of course) which has all the standard penalties, but they only recover 1/2 REC worth of Stun OR Endurance, and they have to make a roll of some kind (based on CON, or - if you're really evil - 9+ END/10 or Stun/10)

This would keep your characters bruised tired, avoids the hassle of the LTE record-keeping that come up, and add some pretty brutal penalties for skipping out on sleep. One last suggestion I'd make is to not make the characters pay END for movement outside of combat (except maybe for spells) and instead draw up a basic table of how much END is burned for walking, hurrying, working, etc in a given time period (like per hour). Say, 1 end per km per hour traveled, 2-3 END per hour of light work, 5-10 per hour of hard labor, and so on.

[The Monster]

In most of my games, I don't make people track END - but most of my Hero games are pulp or medieval fantasy. For pulps, most weapons don't use END, unless you track the STR to wield the thing; it doesn't seem worth it when people are fighting primarily with guns. For special powers - psionics, magic, and the like - then END becomes important, and it needs to be accounted for; most characters at that level have more pressing things to spend points on then a bunch of END or REC.

But even so, I echo the impression that most fights among normals & heroes don't last long enough for END to really matter, unless they're burning extra for magic.

[PhilFleischmann]

most characters at that level have more pressing things to spend points on then a bunch of END or REC.
Well of course not, if you don't track END! It's not an unreasonable way to run the game, but END is useless only because you've made it useless with the way you run your games. If you keep track of END use and have occasional combats that last a while, or have combats happen while the characters have just finished exerting themselves (such as from a previous combat or some other activity), then END and REC will matter a great deal.

Players will design characters and play them according to the way the GM sets up the game.

[Vorsch]

seems a bit of a waste having end reduction advantage.

which i use alot by the way.

[Sean Waters]

I like Sean Water's approach, but I think I'll avoid drawing out 30-40 circles each combat to keep track of end :winkgrin:

...................

That would be a pain but we put the little circles right on the character sheet and either use a pencil or laminate the sheet and use a dry wipe marker, so tthey only need writing out once.

[nexus]

Little circles on the sheet...

Dear Lords of gaming, we're turning Hero into Storyteller!?

[eternal_sage]

LOL!!!

maybe we've just found out that they are secretly the same system, and we've all be fooled....


......or not.