Who's the Smartest? [Archive] - HERO Games Discussion Boards

RadeFox

Jul 13th, '03, 10:39 PM

Steve Long- for having the brains to buy the rights to HERO and making good on the promise of making a great game even better! Nothing but brain-brawn, that one! ;) Of course his stats aren't published yet. Maybe one day we'll see his stats in the NPC rosters for some encounter scene setting.... :D

(Ducks the cries of fanboy and the coconut cream pies):p

Killer Shrike

Jul 14th, '03, 12:14 AM

Technically, relative IQs arent actually determined by INT in the HERO System. Thats why youve got elephants with 8 INT and such like, and "brilliant" scientists in the teens. INT represents effectively your perception and ability to think on your feet.

Monolith

Jul 14th, '03, 06:00 AM

I know this is going to sound weird but I think Destroyer is smarter than Teleios. Yes, Teleios' INT skills are all on a 19- and Dr. Destroyer's are on a 16-, but Dr. Destroyer has many, many, many more skills and he has the 4 Overall Levels. This makes all of Dr. Destroyer's INT skills a 20-. Teleios can think quicker but he has nowhere near the vast knowledge that Dr. Destroyer has.

Dr. Destroyer is the smartest one there is! :)

Agent X

Jul 14th, '03, 06:38 AM

Originally posted by Monolith
I know this is going to sound weird but I think Destroyer is smarter than Teleios. Yes, Teleios' INT skills are all on a 19- and Dr. Destroyer's are on a 16-, but Dr. Destroyer has many, many, many more skills and he has the 4 Overall Levels. This makes all of Dr. Destroyer's INT skills a 20-. Teleios can think quicker but he has nowhere near the vast knowledge that Dr. Destroyer has.

Dr. Destroyer is the smartest one there is! :) That's a pretty good argument. This one won't get settled very easily. How to measure intelligence is an issue that is highly controversial in the education field. Some argue that individuals have multiple intelligences that may number in the hundreds. That makes for a very difficult model for comparison. Based on what characters have done in their backstory, I would agree with Monolith that Dr. Destroyer is indeed the smartest.

Hermit

Jul 14th, '03, 07:11 AM

Originally posted by Gary
Telios has a 50.

Part of me has to wonder if the smartest guy in the CU isn't whoever left that break through paper behind for Telios to find in the first place :)

Lupus

Jul 14th, '03, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by Hermit
Part of me has to wonder if the smartest guy in the CU isn't whoever left that break through paper behind for Telios to find in the first place :)

Mmm. Anyone got any theories about what happened there?

Been playing Champs since 4th, but I didn't get many of the supplements, so I have no idea what went on with most characters back then.

Agent X

Jul 15th, '03, 10:04 AM

Monolith

Jul 15th, '03, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by Lupus
Mmm. Anyone got any theories about what happened there?
I think Dr. Destroyer gave him the information via Menton. Teleios makes a good dupe to take some of the heat off of the real power-player. :)

Gary

Jul 15th, '03, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by Monolith
I think Dr. Destroyer gave him the information via Menton. Teleios makes a good dupe to take some of the heat off of the real power-player. :)

Then he must have miscalculated. If I were a megavillain, I certainly wouldn't create a rival who's smarter than I am. :cool:

misterdeath

Jul 15th, '03, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by Lupus
Mmm. Anyone got any theories about what happened there?

Been playing Champs since 4th, but I didn't get many of the supplements, so I have no idea what went on with most characters back then.

Got two...

1) Teleios himself, in the far future, sent it back to himself in this timeline. That's one of the things that brought Captain Chronos back to this time.

2) Ancient Progenitor info filtered through the Empyrians, and then the Lemurians.

D

Monolith

Jul 15th, '03, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by Gary
Then he must have miscalculated. If I were a megavillain, I certainly wouldn't create a rival who's smarter than I am. :cool:
Yeah, but look at how much easier Teleios is to kill. Heck, even Mr. Matthews from the SAS universe managed to kill him. ;)

Hermit

Jul 15th, '03, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by Monolith
I think Dr. Destroyer gave him the information via Menton. Teleios makes a good dupe to take some of the heat off of the real power-player. :)

Or maybe Menton once free, realized he'd need to create a rival for Dr Destroyer in order to keep his former master off his back.

So he steals some of Destroyer's notes related to one of the fields Destroyer often neglects, finds a promising patsy, and then lays the papers before the guinea pig.

Success, the scientist recreates himself as Telios.

Now, let's look at some odd things to support this theory.
1) Teleios seems to have 'blocked' the memory of getting the notes (Or was a block put there FOR him?)
2) Teleios resents Destroyer (Because Destroyer snubs his branch of science? Seems a bit rushed.. what if the hate was planted there with that as an excuse?)
3) Teleios' raw Int score is higher than Dr. D's. Sounds like it could be achieved by a variation of Mental Transformation is as likely as genetic tampering.

:)

Vondy

Jul 15th, '03, 11:41 AM

Smartest?

It occurs to me, that despite these characters massive intellects, they all have psychological limitations that are intense enough to impede their ability to utilize it successfully. In addition, intelligence is a measure of raw processing power, not necessarily ability (though most of these guys have skill rolls high enough to demonstrate extreme ability). Still, if you get so riled up that you don't think in critical situations your ability to apply that intelligence is marginalized.

I'd say a character with 10 INT, 20- Skill Rolls (or skill levels), and NO major psychological limitations is actually smarter than any of them.

Case in point: Kirk and Khan. Khan was a genetically engineered superman who was "smarter", "faster", "stronger", but he was also so unhinged (20 point psych lim) that he was stupid enough not to use his intellect and allowed his passions to rule him. In other words, despite having a brain the size of a planet he used about as much gray matter as a chimpanzee. He'd have been better off flinging poop.

The same is true of Doc Doom. He's smarter than Reed, but his passions cause him to make tactical errors a second lieutenant with a compass wouldn't make.

I'd say a character with 10 INT, 20- Skill Rolls (or skill levels), and NO major psychological limitations is actually smarter than any of them.

A comparison:

Tactician #1:

INT 50, Tactics 20-, Psychological Limitation: Arrogant Maniac (Common, Total)

Tactician #2:

INT 10, Tactics 20-

Who do you want leading YOUR army?

Gary

Jul 15th, '03, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by D-Man

A comparison:

Tactician #1:

INT 50, Tactics 20-, Psychological Limitation: Arrogant Maniac (Common, Total)

Tactician #2:

INT 10, Tactics 20-

Who do you want leading YOUR army?

I'd take tactician number 1. He can improvise much better on the fly than number 2 when things go wrong. And he's a lot more likely to be creative and find unorthodox solutions to problems. A lot of great military leaders in history were arrogant maniacs.

Vondy

Jul 15th, '03, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by Gary
I'd take tactician number 1. He can improvise much better on the fly than number 2 when things go wrong. And he's a lot more likely to be creative and find unorthodox solutions to problems. <snip>

Only according to one way of thinking. The skill description seems to imply that it is used for evaluating the other guy's intentions and coming up with a plan on the fly (it even points out strategic planning is its own skill).

If we measure points in skill as experience then the more talented tactician with the same skill roll as the less talented one is also the less experienced of the two.

Spock (about Khan): "His movements thus far indicate 2 dimensional thinking. He is intelligent, but he lacks experience"

Killer Shrike

Jul 15th, '03, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by Hermit
Or maybe Menton once free, realized he'd need to create a rival for Dr Destroyer in order to keep his former master off his back.

So he steals some of Destroyer's notes related to one of the fields Destroyer often neglects, finds a promising patsy, and then lays the papers before the guinea pig.

Success, the scientist recreates himself as Telios.

Now, let's look at some odd things to support this theory.
1) Teleios seems to have 'blocked' the memory of getting the notes (Or was a block put there FOR him?)
2) Teleios resents Destroyer (Because Destroyer snubs his branch of science? Seems a bit rushed.. what if the hate was planted there with that as an excuse?)
3) Teleios' raw Int score is higher than Dr. D's. Sounds like it could be achieved by a variation of Mental Transformation is as likely as genetic tampering.

:) "Curses, Hermit youve detected my master plot AGAIN." --Menton.

Actually, thats a very plausible theory.

Gary

Jul 15th, '03, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by D-Man
Only according to one way of thinking. The skill description seems to imply that it is used for evaluating the other guy's intentions and coming up with a plan on the fly (it even points out strategic planning is its own skill).

If we measure points in skill as experience then the more talented tactician with the same skill roll as the less talented one is also the less experienced of the two.

Spock (about Khan): "His movements thus far indicate 2 dimensional thinking. He is intelligent, but he lacks experience"

Yeah, but intelligence is described as raw processing power and speed of thought. The 50 int can think on the fly a lot better and faster than the 10 int who is slow and methodical.

The 10 int will be fine as long as things follow plan and he's not surprised. If he's surprised, it'll take him time (that he may not have) to make up a new plan. Mr. 50 int can roll with the blows and come up with a new plan instantly.

The experience thing works both ways. If 10 int runs into something he hasn't experienced before, he'll have a lot more problems adapting to it. 50 int can adapt to anything.

Lupus

Jul 15th, '03, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Actually, thats a very plausible theory. Yep, Menton sounds like the likely suspect to me too.

Kevin Scrivner

Jul 15th, '03, 09:07 PM

No, no, no. It's applied intelligence that matters. The smartest character in CU is ... Dr. Silverback! He was wise enough not to have become a villain just because he's stuck in an ape's body. And he has his priorities right. He lets ego-driven do-gooders such as Defender confront Mechanon and get the snot beaten out of them while he works a cushy research job and surrounds himself with lovely young assistants.

Vondy

Jul 15th, '03, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by Gary

The experience thing works both ways. If 10 int runs into something he hasn't experienced before, he'll have a lot more problems adapting to it. 50 int can adapt to anything.

There's only one problem you keep overlooking.

That huge psych lim.

Even a second lewey with a compass and an 8 INT would opt for the fool proof tactic.

Goad him into doing something stupid.

I measure intelligence in success.

Doom, Luthor, all the big villian geniousess... they let their emotions and ego lead them into NOT applying their intelligence.

Not so smart.

Gary

Jul 16th, '03, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by D-Man
There's only one problem you keep overlooking.

That huge psych lim.

Even a second lewey with a compass and an 8 INT would opt for the fool proof tactic.

Goad him into doing something stupid.

I measure intelligence in success.

Doom, Luthor, all the big villian geniousess... they let their emotions and ego lead them into NOT applying their intelligence.

Not so smart.

Doom, Luthor, etc are comic book characters and their opponents have script immunity.

I can easily say that a 50 int with a 20- tactics roll would expect the other person to goad him, and would incorporate it into his plans and set up a trap. If facing a 10 int tactician, he would constantly throw out surprises and change plans on the fly, thus forcing 10 int to do the same thing. And if both sides had to change their plans on the fly, 50 int wins easily.

Kristopher

Jul 16th, '03, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by Gary
Doom, Luthor, etc are comic book characters and their opponents have script immunity.

I can easily say that a 50 int with a 20- tactics roll would expect the other person to goad him, and would incorporate it into his plans and set up a trap. If facing a 10 int tactician, he would constantly throw out surprises and change plans on the fly, thus forcing 10 int to do the same thing. And if both sides had to change their plans on the fly, 50 int wins easily.

An Arrogant Manic won't change his plan, though, because his plan is PREFECT, I TELL YOU, PREFECT! NO ONE QUESTIONS ME, LACKEY!

That's the point.

megaplayboy

Jul 16th, '03, 09:49 AM

I think there's no question the 50 INT guy would be able to perceive things on the battlefield much more clearly IF he can overcome his arrogant preconceptions("There's no way they can foil this plan!"). So, a 20 EGO villain with a total committment lim needs an 8- to snap out of it and do what he needs to do to salvage his plan. Maybe less if it's blatantly obvious. I'd give him a small bonus to his ego roll if he makes the per roll by a lot.

Vondy

Jul 16th, '03, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by Gary
Doom, Luthor, etc are comic book characters and their opponents have script immunity.

I can easily say that a 50 int with a 20- tactics roll would expect the other person to goad him, and would incorporate it into his plans and set up a trap. If facing a 10 int tactician, he would constantly throw out surprises and change plans on the fly, thus forcing 10 int to do the same thing. And if both sides had to change their plans on the fly, 50 int wins easily.

And yet, as we see in the source material (comics), they never do...

Gary

Jul 16th, '03, 11:13 AM

One huge advantage of the 50 int guy is his 19- perception roll vs the 11- perception roll of the 10 int guy. 50 int will be able to perceive when something goes wrong with his plans, whereas 10 int will tend to think everything is going according to plan even if it isn't.

Enforcer84

Jul 16th, '03, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by D-Man
And yet, as we see in the source material (comics), they never do...

That's because if the good guys lost we would cry.:(

Hermit

Jul 16th, '03, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Actually, thats a very plausible theory.

Thanks, KS, until I find out anything official to the contrary (and maybe even then ;) ), I think I'm going to go with that for my campaigns.

Hermit

Jul 16th, '03, 12:24 PM

CURSES! A double post! Throwing off my delicate operation and perfect record thus far on these boards....

No, wait, no way I could have made an error, some lackey must have slipped up.

*Decides the frickin sharks with lazer beams on their frickin heads will feast tonight....*

Kristopher

Jul 16th, '03, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by Gary
One huge advantage of the 50 int guy is his 19- perception roll vs the 11- perception roll of the 10 int guy. 50 int will be able to perceive when something goes wrong with his plans, whereas 10 int will tend to think everything is going according to plan even if it isn't.

It doesn't matter how impressive his PER roll is, he has that massive PsychLim in the way. Even if he might preceive taht his plan is going awry, he'll never be able to admit it to himself.

Twilight

Jul 16th, '03, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by Kristopher
It doesn't matter how impressive his PER roll is, he has that massive PsychLim in the way. Even if he might preceive taht his plan is going awry, he'll never be able to admit it to himself.

Or he'll simply say: "Only an intellect as brilliant as mine would have caught that error in time." Then alter the plan and succeed anyway.

Agent X

Jul 17th, '03, 04:37 PM

I see you guys have noticed the problems with defining intelligence.:D

ZootSoot

Jul 17th, '03, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by Kevin Scrivner
No, no, no. It's applied intelligence that matters. The smartest character in CU is ... Dr. Silverback! He was wise enough not to have become a villain just because he's stuck in an ape's body. And he has his priorities right. He lets ego-driven do-gooders such as Defender confront Mechanon and get the snot beaten out of them while he works a cushy research job and surrounds himself with lovely young assistants.

Is there a write-up of Silverback somewhere? He is described as "superhumanly intelligent" and since Teleios' 50 is peak of human capacity it suggests Silverback's could be even higher. I think we have to look at what characters have to work with and how well they achieve their goals. How long has Destroyer been trying to rule the world? How long has Mechanon been trying to destroy it? How long has Teleios worked at making it his own private lab? i don't think any hero could be most intelligent, they are all reactive and seem to have as a primary goal keeping things as they are. I think the villain who has shown himself to effective at achieving his goals, even when his resources have been minimal, is probably smarter than any of the others. Thus I propose, Dark Harlequin!!!