galactic champions--how many points?

[megaplayboy]

It being about 6-9 months out from the release of Galactic Champions, I'm curious to know what folks think the range of starting point levels should be for the cosmic heroes subgenre. I have nothing to do with the product, I'm just looking to start up a JLA/LSH/high end Avengers type of campaign, and want to present a point level that is realistic to simulate that level of capability.

[Monolith]

When I actually get to run a game I will probably use around 500 points for the characters, but I will not have any Active Point limits. Thus if someone wants a 100 STR or 12 SPD they can have it. I will probably also allow characters to get certain types of equipment for free: Vehicles, Bases, Communicators, Flight Rings, etc. Of course in my mind I have a very Legions of Superheroes concept of what Galactic Champions should be all about. By the time the book gets published that might change dramatically.

I probably would not allow over 700 point though, as I am not a huge fan of ultra-high powered games; but only because I feel that rolling 20+ dice or having 20+ attack options has a tendency to slow down combat. Too many things to pick from and too many dice to count are not a good thing to me. :)

[Tom McCarthy]

I think your highest powered teams (JLA, Avengers, Legion) are typically going to include a few 250 point or 350 point heroes (Elongated Man or Green Arrow, Hawkeye or Tigra, Bouncing Boy or Matter Eater Lad), but the core of the team will be 450-600 points (Aquaman, Capt America or Vision, Cosmic Boy), and there will be a couple of monsters at 750-1000 points (Superman or Green Lantern, Thor, Mon-El).

I'm not a huge Legion fan, but it seems the Legion actually tends to lower point totals than JLA or Avengers.

[megaplayboy]

well, it seems to me that if you're going to have a team of PCs with a Thor or Superman type on it, that everyone will have to be as capable(not necessarily as powerful, but as capable) as Thor or Superman, because otherwise the grumbling will start up. So if one character on a PC team is built on a lot of points, they pretty much all have to be, to maintain group harmony. Besides, there are a zillion ways to spend points besides buying more dice and defense.:D

[Insaniac99]

well, I just give caps for defenses and APs (they aren't rock solid either) and trust my players to keep it appropriate and not to step on each others toes. and then i give them ltts of free stuff, but they don't get XP, we roleplay them getting new powers over the course of time and add them once in a while. i run a very cinematic style, forgoing the rules completely if they get in my way.

[specks]

I think Steve, not too long ago, mentioned that Dr. Destroyer would probably be on the low-end side in the Galactic Champions book (if he were still around) :eek:

[specks]

I think it would be nice if the Herogames people would devote a chapter on how to run high-powered type campaigns with this book :)

[megaplayboy]

Originally posted by specks
I think Steve, not too long ago, mentioned that Dr. Destroyer would probably be on the low-end side in the Galactic Champions book (if he were still around) :eek:

I guess it all depends on whether Planet Mover Man is a viable PC or not:D

[megaplayboy]

Originally posted by specks
I think it would be nice if the Herogames people would devote a chapter on how to run high-powered type campaigns with this book :)

uh yeah, I think I'll subscribe to the online mag in order to playtest GC, and lobby specifically for this...

There seem to be 3 approaches, from what I've seen, pointwise:

1. use existing (lower) point bases, and use a combination of narrowly focused concepts and house rule tweaks to achieve the "cosmic/epic" hero effect.
2. use a higher point base and high AP caps(possibly a MUCH higher point base).
3. ignore point totals and follow the "points free" RP model--requires a little extra work on the GM's part, methinks.

these are all viable, albeit they all seem to have their limitations--the first approach may well fall short for handling broad concepts; the second may turn off roleplayers who don't want to handle multi-page writeups; and the third may freak out the number crunchers if they don't have a set point structure to build around(it tends to discourage tweaking, though).

[Monolith]

Originally posted by megaplayboy
uh yeah, I think I'll subscribe to the online mag in order to playtest GC, and lobby specifically for this...
My guess would be that once it starts getting closer to the time of writing the book you will see a "What Would You Like To See..." question being asked about it.

Just as a point of information, once the Playtesters get the manuscript it is also going into layout. Thus there is not a lot of time or print space to be adding entirely new sections. So if it is not in there by playtest time there is a good bet it will not be included at all (or will be included in sidebars as a very abreviated form).

[SuperPheemy]

The point totals should reflect the scale of the genre. For example, at 350 points, the characters are geared to handle one city at a time. Most 350 point Champs games revolve around a single city, and any challenges or threats are of a city-scale.

So, when dealing on a galactic scale, with threats that span entire star-clusters, and characters who are supposed to serve and protect hundreds and thousands, if not millions of worlds need abilities that allow them to accomplish those goals. In HERO that means more points, if for no other reason than to offset some of the near-mandatory powers like FTL travel, and the "Live in a vacuum" Life Support Packages.

As mentioned before, high point totals don't necessarily mean extravogant die totals, or exponentially notated defenses. Characters whose "jurisdiction" encompas vast interstellar distances will easily blow 100 points or more just on vehicles and bases.

[VictorVonDoom]

i would call the amount "Astronomical" high ... :)

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by megaplayboy
3. ignore point totals and follow the "points free" RP model--requires a little extra work on the GM's part, methinks.

and the third may freak out the number crunchers if they don't have a set point structure to build around(it tends to discourage tweaking, though).

My preferred method. Tell me what you want to be able to do, and we'll make it happen. It requires that the GM keep characters to niches, and slightly bend character concepts to fit with a group. "Not another Mon-El?! Oh, yeah, thanks Joe, you want to play Bouncing Boy."

So, yeah, GM work. And, yeah, it really discourages tweaking. Because there isn't any point to it.

But it's a lot of fun, and quite freeing.

There's a Digital Hero article (Pointless Champions, DH#3) that talks about this kind of thing.

D

[megaplayboy]

interesting--so far opinion seems evenly split between low end(option 1 and 3) and high end(2,4, and 5) approaches. I suggested option 3 on the assumption there might be a temptation to offer GC as a "flavor" for a standard supers game.

[assault]

Well, if you are looking at an outfit like the Legion of Superheroes, most characters will be no more powerful than any other Champions character. The only difference would be that they have access to a bit of neat high-tech like starships, spacesuits, flight rings and so on. So, maybe they would be 450 points: "350 + 100".

This would adequately cover your Saturn Girls, Lightning Lads, Cosmic Boys, Shadow Lasses, Phantom Lasses, Matter Eater Lads, and so on. Well, maybe not Matter Eater Lad, whose power is expressed in rather absolute terms. He might be one of the higher point characters.

Then, yes, there is the Superboy gallery. These are actually entirely disposable in any particular campaign, but they are enough of a (sub-)genre bit to make them worth including. These characters can be built on whatever points you feel is necessary. Even there, though, you can run perfectly good game without them being able to literally juggle planets. They just need to be noticeably tougher than anyone else.

The real fudge in the subgenre, though, is that technology is actually quite weak! In particular, starships tend to use rather unimpressive energy blasts, rather than, well, nukes.

That's the real fudge in the subgenre.

Of course, that doesn't prevent the existence of Sun-Eaters, but it does mean that your Nasty Alien Fleet isn't as Nasty as it potentially could be.

Of course, the other space based subgenre is "Earth-based team go into space". In these situations, they aren't necessarily overwhelmed.

Then again, very few of them run into whole packs of Green Lanterns or Daxamites, do they?

Alan

[megaplayboy]

Originally posted by assault
Well, if you are looking at an outfit like the Legion of Superheroes, most characters will be no more powerful than any other Champions character. The only difference would be that they have access to a bit of neat high-tech like starships, spacesuits, flight rings and so on. So, maybe they would be 450 points: "350 + 100".

This would adequately cover your Saturn Girls, Lightning Lads, Cosmic Boys, Shadow Lasses, Phantom Lasses, Matter Eater Lads, and so on. Well, maybe not Matter Eater Lad, whose power is expressed in rather absolute terms. He might be one of the higher point characters.

Then, yes, there is the Superboy gallery. These are actually entirely disposable in any particular campaign, but they are enough of a (sub-)genre bit to make them worth including. These characters can be built on whatever points you feel is necessary. Even there, though, you can run perfectly good game without them being able to literally juggle planets. They just need to be noticeably tougher than anyone else.

The real fudge in the subgenre, though, is that technology is actually quite weak! In particular, starships tend to use rather unimpressive energy blasts, rather than, well, nukes.

That's the real fudge in the subgenre.

Of course, that doesn't prevent the existence of Sun-Eaters, but it does mean that your Nasty Alien Fleet isn't as Nasty as it potentially could be.

Of course, the other space based subgenre is "Earth-based team go into space". In these situations, they aren't necessarily overwhelmed.

Then again, very few of them run into whole packs of Green Lanterns or Daxamites, do they?

Alan

Well, the real issue that comes up is that this campaign setting(GC, that is) is supposed to be set in the latter era of the "Galactic Federation" , and presumably would have to be compatible with the source material for that setting. That is, the heroes would have to contend with the high powered starship weaponry, immense defenses, and such things as antimatter missiles. Now, try writing up a PC for 350 or 450 points who can survive a 25d6 RKX(megascale, to boot!), without going all munchkin;)
I'm pretty sure Mon-El could survive a photon torpedo...

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by megaplayboy
Well, the real issue that comes up is that this campaign setting(GC, that is) is supposed to be set in the latter era of the "Galactic Federation" , and presumably would have to be compatible with the source material for that setting. That is, the heroes would have to contend with the high powered starship weaponry, immense defenses, and such things as antimatter missiles. Now, try writing up a PC for 350 or 450 points who can survive a 25d6 RKX(megascale, to boot!), without going all munchkin;)
I'm pretty sure Mon-El could survive a photon torpedo...

That's why I don't like any of the Star Hero materials (or the ones from the Ultimate Vehicle, either, for that matter). Good job on planning there, Steve.

[Metaphysician]

Why is it no one ever responds to the apparent discrepancy between vehicle firepower and superhero power levels by saying the heroes should be *more* powerful??

[GamePhil]

That's why I don't like any of the Star Hero materials (or the ones from the Ultimate Vehicle, either, for that matter). Good job on planning there, Steve.

Well, I admit to having a small problem with them, too, but it's hardly fair to point the finger at Steve. Hero 4th had the same "problem" with tanks, for example, where its defense was far beyond the pale for standard (then, 250 point) superhero games.

If I'm going to use standard vehicles in a Superhero game, I tend to just slap on a couple of Disadvantages (Vulnerability: All Superpowers, Susceptability to same) and some Limitations on their attacks and defenses to being them in line.

In any event, that's Star HERO, this is Galactic Champions. For better or worse, there will be some differences in how the rules work between the two games.

[assault]

Why is it no one ever responds to the apparent discrepancy between vehicle firepower and superhero power levels by saying the heroes should be *more* powerful??

Because the power levels of the superheroes were established first.

Also, because the majority of published superheroes could theoretically be stabbed to death with a knife, even though they can melt tanks into sludge with a glance. There's a real balance problem there, where every successful attack is potentially lethal.

[Oruncrest]

That's why I don't like any of the Star Hero materials (or the ones from the Ultimate Vehicle, either, for that matter). Good job on planning there, Steve.

Actually, the Star HERO & TUV Starships aren't that bad. They don't have stacked defenses like the TE & ST ships have and the only think wrong with the SH?TUV attacks, IMO, are that they should be the equivalent DC in EB instead of RKA, but they're certainly survivable by 'cosmic' level characters (Well, maybe the Star Ravager was a little too tough, but it was based on the living starships in Outlanders, it's supposed to be badass.

TE/ST Starships, on the other hand, remind me of RIFTS starships: Ginormous BODY, Defenses on top of defenses on top of evenmore defenses (100+ DEF?) and attacks designed to beat those defenses. A Super-Dreadnaught would roll over Post-Crisis Superman and Pre-Crisis Supes would think long and hard before tackling one of these monstrosities.

[Lord Liaden]

One thing I'm hoping for from Galactic Champions is some rules options to allow supers to have a better chance against military vehicle-type opponents without having to be built on a truckload of points with gynormous DC attacks. Preferably something that can be ported over to any high-powered game where GMs want to simulate that comic-book trope.

[Enforcer84]

My guess would be that once it starts getting closer to the time of writing the book you will see a "What Would You Like To See..." question being asked about it.

Just as a point of information, once the Playtesters get the manuscript it is also going into layout. Thus there is not a lot of time or print space to be adding entirely new sections. So if it is not in there by playtest time there is a good bet it will not be included at all (or will be included in sidebars as a very abreviated form).
What he said.

And welcome back Monolith :)

[Lord Liaden]

Sadly, Enforcer, the post from Monolith that you quoted was from back on July of 2003; Mon is still gone. And GC is essentially already written, so no "What Would *You* Like To See" threads at this point.

[Darren Watts]

Though we never had an official "What would you like to see?" thread for GC, we did have several discussions in other threads on both this board and the Star Hero board that I printed out and found very useful while writing. I specifically used suggestions from Liaden, Talon, Monolith and Jeffrey Kramer, all of whom are credited in the book.

As for the power discrepancy between supers and starships, in the default Hero Universe setting starships *are* in fact big and nasty and should frighten superheroes. However, the book does discuss "house rules" for GMs wanting to play games where heroes plow through entire fleets (for example, deciding that attacks vs. inanimate objects always do max BODY, as somebody on the list siggested (I don't have who here.)) dw

[Redmenace]

Sadly, Enforcer, the post from Monolith that you quoted was from back on July of 2003; Mon is still gone.


I don't know for sure it is the same one but there has been a Monolith posting on the Omlevex boards. He knew the subgenre, comments were well reasoned, it sounded like the Monolith to me.

[Necros99]

I am actually in what could be termed a Galactic Level Campaign right now (protecting the reality from transidmensional enemies). We have a team of 5, at roughly 825 points. We have DC a cap of 36dc, 150 AP cap, combined ocv/dcv cap of 40 (ecv cap 20 if a mentalist), 40ish defenses. Individual members can exceed those caps for very specific powers that are part of their "core theme", like the martial artist who has a 40dc attack, or the brick with 50 hardened PD and 75% pdr.

[Lord Liaden]

Though we never had an official "What would you like to see?" thread for GC, we did have several discussions in other threads on both this board and the Star Hero board that I printed out and found very useful while writing. I specifically used suggestions from Liaden, Talon, Monolith and Jeffrey Kramer, all of whom are credited in the book.

Gee, I'm flattered. :o I've had suggestions of mine from the boards appear in a Hero book before, but this is my first credit. Wasn't necessary or expected, but now I can preen before my homies. :D


As for the power discrepancy between supers and starships, in the default Hero Universe setting starships *are* in fact big and nasty and should frighten superheroes. However, the book does discuss "house rules" for GMs wanting to play games where heroes plow through entire fleets (for example, deciding that attacks vs. inanimate objects always do max BODY, as somebody on the list siggested (I don't have who here.)) dw

I'm very glad you took that suggestion, Darren. Both approaches are equally valid depending on how a gaming group wants it, but Champions should be able to support the full range of superhero conventions.

I love how you DoJ guys pay attention and respect to your fans' input. Your dialogue-fu is powerful! ;)

[Lord Liaden]

I don't know for sure it is the same one but there has been a Monolith posting on the Omlevex boards. He knew the subgenre, comments were well reasoned, it sounded like the Monolith to me.

Yes, I've seen him posting recently on the RPGnet boards, too. I'm 99% certain that's "our" Monolith. I'm hopeful that whatever set of circumstances put him so on edge here will be resolved one day so he'll return. Some of his posts over the last few months had been kinda grating, but overall he made a very positive contribution.

[megaplayboy]

Though we never had an official "What would you like to see?" thread for GC, we did have several discussions in other threads on both this board and the Star Hero board that I printed out and found very useful while writing. I specifically used suggestions from Liaden, Talon, Monolith and Jeffrey Kramer, all of whom are credited in the book.

As for the power discrepancy between supers and starships, in the default Hero Universe setting starships *are* in fact big and nasty and should frighten superheroes. However, the book does discuss "house rules" for GMs wanting to play games where heroes plow through entire fleets (for example, deciding that attacks vs. inanimate objects always do max BODY, as somebody on the list siggested (I don't have who here.)) dw


Of course, there's also the Megascale Move-By on Kilometer-long starships ;)

[SuperPheemy]

In my Cosmic Myths game, I use three scales dependant on what the characters intend to do.

Most characters are 600 point heroes and are expected to jet all around the galaxy keeping the peace and averting disasters.

Character Concepts who are not willing (or ready) for that type of responsibility are often made at 450 points, which allows them to engage in the scope of the setting without being expected to deal with the cosmic-level threats like Singulus or ECLIPSE.

For conventions, I'm using the Aegis Corps which is the galaxy's premier superteam. Sort of a Guardians of the Galaxy or JLA scaled team. They're all built on 700 points and are expected to handle the gravest threats the galaxy has to offer.