Would you allow a BODY Aid to work on an Entangle?

[DocSamson]

I'm building a villain for my Champs game (450 pts., 75 AP max) named Sludge. As a personal quirk, I try to write up all of my supervillains using the same basic guidelines I would allow for my players (minions have less points while arch-villains have more). If I allow this build, I may see it on a player sheet at some points in the future.

The build will be something simple like a 7d6 BODY/ 8 DEF Entangle (75 APs) and a seperate 4d6 BODY Aid, Ranged (+1/2), Trigger (+1/4) (70 APs)
Would you use it for a villain?
Would you allow it for a player?

[Chris Goodwin]

All together now:

"Dramatic sense, common sense, and SFX!"

Take a drink.

:D

[DocSamson]

All together now:

"Dramatic sense, common sense, and SFX!"

Take a drink.

I will assume your response is a negative. Can you elaborate pls? I would like to add that a 450 pt. campaign doesn't simply play like a 350 pt. game with more dice. Most of my players seem to have characters with more flexibility, requiring me to build more challenging villains and scenarios to keep it entertaining. They are also fairly experienced gamers and roleplayers.

[Chris Goodwin]

I will assume your response is a negative. Can you elaborate pls? I would like to add that a 450 pt. campaign doesn't simply play like a 350 pt. game with more dice. Most of my players seem to have characters with more flexibility, requiring me to build more challenging villains and scenarios to keep it entertaining.

Sorry, humor. It seems as if at least 50% of Steve Long's answers in the Rules Questions forum are something like, "That's not permitted by the rules, but you can do it with GM permission; common sense, dramatic sense, and SFX will dictate."

Edit, to add clarity: I don't actually think it's against the rules. You can do it with GM permission; common sense, dramatic sense, and SFX will dictate.

[Lord Fyre]

I'm building a villain for my Champs game (450 pts., 75 AP max) named Sludge. As a personal quirk, I try to write up all of my supervillains using the same basic guidelines I would allow for my players (minions have less points while arch-villains have more). If I allow this build, I may see it on a player sheet at some points in the future.

The build will be something simple like a 7d6 BODY/ 8 DEF Entangle (75 APs) and a seperate 4d6 BODY Aid, Ranged (+1/2), Trigger (+1/4) (70 APs)
Would you use it for a villain?
Would you allow it for a player?

If I understand correctly, the idea is that a character who fails to escape will bury him/herself deeper - like someone struggling against quicksand.

Even so, there are a couple of rules questions to be looked at:

What is the cost ratio for converting the AID roll to Entagle body? Normally, Entangle body is not bought directly but rather as 1d6/10 points and takes the BODY as per a normal damage attack. Normally, a character "heals" his/her entangle by recasting it at the same target.
Would you allow a player/NPC to buy the entangle directly as 140 active points? (i.e, a 14d6 body entangle, with a reduced defense?) That -in my understanding of the rules-would be the equivalent to buying the power combo you have just stated.

[DocSamson]

If I understand correctly, the idea is that a character who fails to escape will bury him/herself deeper - like someone struggling against quicksand.

Even so, there are a couple of rules questions to be looked at:

What is the cost ratio for converting the AID roll to Entagle body? Normally, Entangle body is not bought directly but rather as 1d6/10 points and takes the BODY as per a normal damage attack. Normally, a character "heals" his/her entangle by recasting it at the same target.
Would you allow a player/NPC to buy the entangle directly as 140 active points? (i.e, a 14d6 body entangle, with a reduced defense?) That -in my understanding of the rules-would be the equivalent to buying the power combo you have just stated.

Close. What I was going for was an Entangle that can be dramatically reinforced using repeated actions. The Trigger is probably not necessary but I wanted to start with an Entangle that would not be easily escaped. The powers are seperate and cannot be Linked (as they have different Targets) or be together in the same Framework Slot.

My assumption is that a BODY Aid would add 1 BODY to the Entangle for every 2 pts. of Effect. The Aid is not targeting the Entangle Power itself, but the BODY of an Entangle already in existence (in other words, it's a BODY Aid, not an Entangle Aid.).

Maybe I should just use repeated Entangles, or perhaps even buy a second Entangle with Autofire, to reinforce the original. Thanks for the input you two.

[Hyper-Man]

Close. What I was going for was an Entangle that can be dramatically reinforced using repeated actions. The Trigger is probably not necessary but I wanted to start with an Entangle that would not be easily escaped. The powers are seperate and cannot be Linked (as they have different Targets) or be together in the same Framework Slot.

My assumption is that a BODY Aid would add 1 BODY to the Entangle for every 2 pts. of Effect. The Aid is not targeting the Entangle Power itself, but the BODY of an Entangle already in existence (in other words, it's a BODY Aid, not an Entangle Aid.). Thanks so far for the input.

Aid to BODY is only going to work for the characteristic, NOT the Body component of the Entangle power. You could build an Aid that affected Entangle directly but the dice of AID just becomes additional active points for the Entangle as built. The drawback to using this approach is that the Aid is only increasing the character's ability to create a NEW Entangle. It does not have any affect on an existing one. If that is the primary goal it would be far simpler to just bypass Aid altogether and just build a Naked Advantage Trigger for the existing Entangle.

example:

70 Generic Entangle: Entangle 7d6, 7 DEF - END=7

52 Quicksand Effect (Naked Advantage): Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset, Trigger can expire (it has a time limit); +1/2) for up to 70 Active Points of Generic Entangle, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (52 Active Points) [Notes: 0 End is just for the Trigger Advantage.] - END=0

edit..

note that using the same Entangle on a target multiple times does NOT increase the DEF of the Entangle, only its BODY. Essentially what you were describing with the Aid construct.

[Lord Fyre]

Close. What I was going for was an Entangle that can be dramatically reinforced using repeated actions. The Trigger is probably not necessary but I wanted to start with an Entangle that would not be easily escaped. The powers are seperate and cannot be Linked (as they have different Targets) or be together in the same Framework Slot.

My assumption is that a BODY Aid would add 1 BODY to the Entangle for every 2 pts. of Effect. The Aid is not targeting the Entangle Power itself, but the BODY of an Entangle already in existence (in other words, it's a BODY Aid, not an Entangle Aid.). Thanks for the input you two.

The power seems a little strong (with a potential for 19 Body, but it is unlikely to get that high), but if you would have answer "Yes" to my second question (Would you allow a player/NPC to buy the entangle directly as 140 active points?) then I would be inclinded to also allow this power. ;)

I hope that helps.

[Lord Fyre]

Aid to BODY is only going to work for the characteristic, NOT the Body component of the Entangle power. You could build an Aid that affected Entangle directly but the dice of AID just becomes additional active points for the Entangle as built. The drawback to using this approach is that the Aid is only increasing the character's ability to create a NEW Entangle. It does not have any affect on an existing one. If that is the primary goal it would be far simpler to just bypass Aid altogether and just build a Naked Advantage Trigger for the existing Entangle.

No, I think the primary goal was the idea that the villian could continue to further envolope their target. Not just for quicksand.

The idea being that if the target does not escape quickly, getting out will become harder and harder to do.

The same idea would also work for a rapidly drying cement that continues to harden arround the target.

Now the approch that Doc Samson took may not be the most effective one for the effect (but I don't know what would be), but It certainly seems valid.

[Hyper-Man]

No, I think the primary goal was the idea that the villian could continue to further envolope their target. Not just for quicksand.

The idea being that if the target does not escape quickly, getting out will become harder and harder to do.

The same idea would also work for a rapidly drying cement that continues to harden arround the target.

Well Entangle really is its own Aid of sorts. Just using the power multiple times would work.

Another approach might be to purchase bonus dice of Entangle outside of whatever power framework being used and give it the Gradual Effect Limitation. And the bonus dice then could legally be Linked to the primary Entangle.


Gradual Effect
1 Turn (Post-Segment 12)
Value -1/4

(Hero System Fifth Edition Rule Book, page 192; Revised, page 296-297)

A Power with this Limitation works slowly, taking some time to achieve its full effect.

[DocSamson]

Woops, I edited after you two quoted me :doi:

I would like to hold the character to a 75 AP max, as the players are so restricted. We allow powers that augment existing powers (otherwise Adjustment powers would be useless) but would not allow an actual 150 AP power, combo or otherwise. If you think this violates the spirit of the 75 AP max, then by our standards it would not be allowed.

Hyper, I find it interesting that Aid cannot boost the BODY of an Entangle while Drain can reduce it (5ER pg. 168). However, there does seem to be some support for your ruling in the FAQ. I think I will probably not use the Aid. Thanks all.

[Lord Fyre]

Well Entangle really is its own Aid of sorts. Just using the power multiple times would work.

Another approach might be to purchase bonus dice of Entangle outside of whatever power framework being used and give it the Gradual Effect Limitation. And the bonus dice then could legally be Linked to the primary Entangle.

You are right! Bonus dice outside the framework that have the gradual effect would be the most effective (and most legal) way of building the SFX. :thumbup:

[DocSamson]

You are right! Bonus dice outside the framework that have the gradual effect would be the most effective (and most legal) way of building the SFX. :thumbup:

I agree, a second Entangle built to augment the first seems to be the way to go. Thx again.

[Sean Waters]

Well, it is not illegal, as far as I can see - an entangle has Body, so can be Body Aided.

Having said that, I would not be happy for a PC to have it - it seems like a sneaky way around the entangle rules and limitations.

If I wanted a nasty entangle for a villain, I would not do it this way either, methinks....

What I would allow is an entangle with some sort of linked or otherwise associated regeneration power. That would be cool, and not overly balance-tipping.

Even cooler, come to think on it: an entangle and a continuous strength transfer from the target to the Body of the entangle, or even absorption - the more you struggle, the more surely trapped you become! I could see that flying.

[DavidToomey]

I don't have Fred handy, but isn't +1 Body Entangle cost 5 pts, not 2?

Plus, you would probably want to boost the fade rate a bit...

[Hyper-Man]

Well, if it is legal for an Aid to target the Body of an Entangle it would also be legal for it to target its defense as well. Think about how powerful an effect that would be.

[Killer Shrike]

If the SFX of the Aid (or Heal) to BODY are appropriate to improve the durability of the Entangle in question, then sure.

However, IIRC Entangle BODY is 5 points per +1 BODY, not the 2 points per +1 BODY of a character.

[DocSamson]

Well, if it is legal for an Aid to target the Body of an Entangle it would also be legal for it to target its defense as well. Think about how powerful an effect that would be.

If the SFX of the Aid (or Heal) to BODY are appropriate to improve the durability of the Entangle in question, then sure.

However, IIRC Entangle BODY is 5 points per +1 BODY, not the 2 points per +1 BODY of a character.
I think this is true. Using the same reasoning, the DEF of an Entangle would also be worth 5 pts. per +1 DEF. This is an effect I don't think I want to introduce to my campaign. I use Entangles to slow characters down or force them to cooperate. I'm definately not looking for an effect that could remove a player from a combat in a single action.

I am going to save this one for the next time someone posts munchin build thread though. :sneaky:

[Hugh Neilson]

The build will be something simple like a 7d6 BODY/ 8 DEF Entangle (75 APs) and a seperate 4d6 BODY Aid, Ranged (+1/2), Trigger (+1/4) (70 APs)
Would you use it for a villain?
Would you allow it for a player?

I'm unclear on what the Trigger is. However, with +1/4, I believe the character must take a half phase attack action to set the trigger, which is effectively a new attack.

Even assuming that the Aid adds 1 BOD per 2 points on the die, it will average 7 BOD, the same as having fired the Entangle again. Now, the Aid has the advantage of adding to the existing BOD, rather than using the "multiple entangles" rule of using the highest BOD of the 2 entangles, +1 for each additional entangle, but it also has the drawback of a fade rate.

Given this, it seems like a poor use of 70 AP to purchase this Aid (although it's likely only 7 real points, as a multipower slot).

Should the BOD aid grant 1 BOD per 2 points or 1 BOD per 5 points rolled? I'm not sure that simply looking at the point costs is appropriate. An Aid to an Entangle adding 1d6 BOD per 5 points would allow the Entangle user to fire off a number of Entangles with increased BOD, not just enhance one Entangle, so I can see a case for using the standard 2 CP = 1 BOD approach for the Entangle.

I think a more effective combination in a MP would be two entangles, one with way more BOD dice than defenses and the other with way more DEF than BOD. Using your 75 AP level, say 5d6 10 DEF and 10d6 5 DEF. When both are fired, the target's entangle takes the higher of the two defenses (so 10 DEF) and the higher of the two BOD numbers, +1 for the other (so 11 BOD). That's a pretty effective combination, but it really only sums to an 11d6, 10 BOD entangle from two 75 point powers. I could have had a 15d6, 15 DEF Entangle for the same cost.

[DocSamson]

I'm unclear on what the Trigger is. However, with +1/4, I believe the character must take a half phase attack action to set the trigger, which is effectively a new attack.

Even assuming that the Aid adds 1 BOD per 2 points on the die, it will average 7 BOD, the same as having fired the Entangle again. Now, the Aid has the advantage of adding to the existing BOD, rather than using the "multiple entangles" rule of using the highest BOD of the 2 entangles, +1 for each additional entangle, but it also has the drawback of a fade rate.

Given this, it seems like a poor use of 70 AP to purchase this Aid (although it's likely only 7 real points, as a multipower slot).

Should the BOD aid grant 1 BOD per 2 points or 1 BOD per 5 points rolled? I'm not sure that simply looking at the point costs is appropriate. An Aid to an Entangle adding 1d6 BOD per 5 points would allow the Entangle user to fire off a number of Entangles with increased BOD, not just enhance one Entangle, so I can see a case for using the standard 2 CP = 1 BOD approach for the Entangle.

I think a more effective combination in a MP would be two entangles, one with way more BOD dice than defenses and the other with way more DEF than BOD. Using your 75 AP level, say 5d6 10 DEF and 10d6 5 DEF. When both are fired, the target's entangle takes the higher of the two defenses (so 10 DEF) and the higher of the two BOD numbers, +1 for the other (so 11 BOD). That's a pretty effective combination, but it really only sums to an 11d6, 10 BOD entangle from two 75 point powers. I could have had a 15d6, 15 DEF Entangle for the same cost.

I think Hyper found a better way to build the power but I'll try to answer your questions.
The Trigger is the Entangle Attack, Linked is not appropriate in this circumnstance because Linked Powers must have the same Target.
A Half Phase Action can be taken before an Attack Action so the Trigger could be renewed before each Entangle attack.
I believe Hyper to be right that the BODY of an Entangle is built on 5 pts., not 2 as I previously suggested.
The two Entangle approach is the solution Hyper arrived at also.
As stated, I build villains with roughly the same limits as the players, so a 15d6/ 15 DEF Entangle would be inappropriate as a player would likely not be able to escape it.

[Chris Goodwin]

I think the official way is that +1 BODY costs 5 points, which means +1 DEF costs 5 points.

I think I'm going to house rule it that +1 BODY costs 4 points and +1 DEF costs 6 points. This is, very neatly, exactly twice the cost of the BODY Characteristic and twice the cost of Armor.

[Hugh Neilson]

I think Hyper found a better way to build the power but I'll try to answer your questions.
The Trigger is the Entangle Attack, Linked is not appropriate in this circumnstance because Linked Powers must have the same Target.
A Half Phase Action can be taken before an Attack Action so the Trigger could be renewed before each Entangle attack.
I believe Hyper to be right that the BODY of an Entangle is built on 5 pts., not 2 as I previously suggested.
The two Entangle approach is the solution Hyper arrived at also.
As stated, I build villains with roughly the same limits as the players, so a 15d6/ 15 DEF Entangle would be inappropriate as a player would likely not be able to escape it.

Isn't Aid an attack action, meaning it ends the phase? Setting the trigger for an attack action is an attack action, I believe.

The end result of the approach you envision appears to be a 14d6, 8 DEF entangle (with 7d6 from the Entangle and another 7d6 from the Aid). Why not just buy a 7d6 8 DEF entangle [75 points], and +7d6 Entangle (35 more AP), Full Phase [23 real points]? That's 98 points in total.


I think the official way is that +1 BODY costs 5 points, which means +1 DEF costs 5 points.

I think I'm going to house rule it that +1 BODY costs 4 points and +1 DEF costs 6 points. This is, very neatly, exactly twice the cost of the BODY Characteristic and twice the cost of Armor.

I think this is also more consistent with the real point costs of an Entangle with the No Defense or 1 BOD limitations applied, and I've considered the same approach for that reason. I can count all of one Entangle I've ever seen on a PC character sheet that had more d6 than DEF.

[Hyper-Man]

re: legality of using an Aid on an existing Entangle:

from the FAQ:
http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.htm?ruleset=&section=&keywords=Aid+Entangle&dateString=


Can a character use Aid to enhance an existing Entangle?

No. See 5ER 166 regarding “healing” an Entangle by applying another Entangle.

and from 5ER 166,


Multiple Entangles
If a character is hit by more than one Entangle (whether from one attacker, or more than one), the Entangle’s DEF is the highest DEF of all the Entangles. Th e Entangle’s BODY is the highest BODY of all the Entangles, +1 BODY for each additional Entangle.


Example: Thunderbird is hit with four Entangles of DEF 3/BODY 3, DEF 4/BODY 6, DEF 3/BODY 3, and DEF 5/BODY 5, respectively. The total Entangle has DEF 5 (the DEF of the highest DEF Entangle) and BODY 9 (the highest BODY [6] plus 3 for the three additional Entangles).

If an Entangle has been damaged and another Entangle is then used on the Entangled character, the Entangle has the highest DEF and BODY of the two Entangles involved. However, at a minimum, applying another Entangle adds +1 BODY, thus “healing” the damaged Entangle.

here is an example based on the hardening concrete sfx:

75 Binary Entangle, part 1: Entangle 7d6, 8 DEF - END=7
33 Binary Entangle, part 2: Entangle 8d6, 4 DEF, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (75 Active Points); Linked (Binary Entangle, part 1; -1/2), Susceptible to too much water Common (-1/2), Gradual Effect (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12); Optionally, you can add +2d6 Body and +1 Defense every 3 phases for 1 Turn (SPD 4 on the Speed Chart) ; -1/4) - END=3

[DocSamson]

Is the FAQ referring to an Aid to Entangle or an Aid to BODY? Note that an existing Entangle cannot be Dispelled (without a limitation) but it's BODY can be Drained. There seems to be seperate mechanisms for resolving how Adjustment powers interact with the Entangle power and the physical Entangle the power creates.

[Hyper-Man]

Is the FAQ referring to an Aid to Entangle or an Aid to BODY? Note that an existing Entangle cannot be Dispelled (without a limitation) but it's BODY can be Drained. There seems to be seperate mechanisms for resolving how Adjustment powers interact with the Entangle power and the physical Entangle the power creates.

I think the FAQ question was pretty clear


Can a character use Aid to enhance an existing Entangle?

No. See 5ER 166 regarding “healing” an Entangle by applying another Entangle.

I'm guessing that Steve made this ruling to avoid the very confusion we've seen in this thread.

[DocSamson]

I think the FAQ question was pretty clear
Fair enough.

I'm guessing that Steve made this ruling to avoid the very confusion we've seen in this thread.
The Aid in question was to Defense if any were curious. http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32425&highlight=entangle

[Trebuchet]

Would I allow it? Probably (almost certainly) not. Unless the SFX of the Entangle is that it's living tissue, it is illogical for something designed to in effect heal or reinforce bodies to fix a non-living barrier. It would be like expecting Paramedic to enable one to repair damage to a car. Would we allow Aid to BODY or PD to strengthen a brick wall? This is patent metagaming IMHO. It's an attempt to bypass probable campaign caps by stacking Powers rather than Advantages.

Yes, there might possibly be legitimate reasons to use Aid on inanimate objects. However, Entangle already has a built-in mechanism for increasing DEF or BODY. That is the method that should be used.

[Sean Waters]

A 5 point adder gets you +1d6 (normal) BODy, so 0-2 (average 1) BODY. i.e. the cost of entangle BODY is not a constant.

Also, if you are buying it that way there are limitations on how much BODY you could add with an Aid - i.e. only up to twice the DEF.

This begs the question though - why should Body for entangle cost more than for anything else? Does it, in fact, or does it just cost more to create the Body of an entangle, using the power, but once it is created, it costs the same as 'normal' Body?

Either way, like I said before, I would not allow an Aid. It just feels wrong.

It is an interesting point though, when it comes to drains....

[Sean Waters]

.......................

here is an example based on the hardening concrete sfx:

75 Binary Entangle, part 1: Entangle 7d6, 8 DEF - END=7
33 Binary Entangle, part 2: Entangle 8d6, 4 DEF, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (75 Active Points); Linked (Binary Entangle, part 1; -1/2), Susceptible to too much water Common (-1/2), Gradual Effect (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12); Optionally, you can add +2d6 Body and +1 Defense every 3 phases for 1 Turn (SPD 4 on the Speed Chart) ; -1/4) - END=3


I'm not sure the part 2 adds any DEF, or that the whole construct can add more than 2 Body per use (barring lucky rolls).

You might try the Munchkin version for adding Body:

60 points: 4 DEF/4 BODY Entangle with 4 Additional DEF (8 DEF total)
40 1 DEF/1 BODY Entangle, entangle has no Body (-1 1/2) linked (-1/2) AoE hex (+1/2) 0 END (+1) 5 shot autofire (+1 1/2)

Assuming a target that you hit with a DCV of 9, this gives you an 8 DEF entangle with at least 8 DEF, and the ability to add up to 6 Body per application :)

[Hyper-Man]

I'm not sure the part 2 adds any DEF, or that the whole construct can add more than 2 Body per use (barring lucky rolls).

You might try the Munchkin version for adding Body:

60 points: 4 DEF/4 BODY Entangle with 4 Additional DEF (8 DEF total)
40 1 DEF/1 BODY Entangle, entangle has no Body (-1 1/2) linked (-1/2) AoE hex (+1/2) 0 END (+1) 5 shot autofire (+1 1/2)

Assuming a target that you hit with a DCV of 9, this gives you an 8 DEF entangle with at least 8 DEF, and the ability to add up to 6 Body per application :)

How can you add Body with an Entangle that has the No Body Limitation??

In my example part 1 is designed to go in a framework. Part 2 is designed to be outside of any framework and only works when used as part of a combined attack with part 1 which will be 15d6 Body and 12 Defense.

[Sean Waters]

How can you add Body with an Entangle that has the No Body Limitation??

Sorry - should have read 'No DEF', but the limitation value is right.


In my example part 1 is designed to go in a framework. Part 2 is designed to be outside of any framework and only works when used as part of a combined attack with part 1 which will be 15d6 Body and 12 Defense.

You bought it as 'linked' so it acts as a second attack that goes off at the same time as the first, and so will not add to the entangle, except to add another point of Body when it takes effect.

I think what you need to do is effectively buy it as a 135 point entangle, with partial limitations and advantages (or two powers, one in the framework and one bought as +Entangle, but without the linked limtiation.)

[PhilFleischmann]

The BODY of a (human) character and the BODY of an Entangle (or other inanimate object) are not the same thing. The fact that we use the same word shouldn't confuse you too much. Just like the leg of a person and the leg of a table aren't the same thing, even though we use the same word for them.

So the BODY of an Entangle costs 5 points (assuming Standard Effect). So does the DEF, but DEF is DEFensive and therefore Adjustment Powers that affect it are halved. 20 pips on the effect dice could add 4 BODY or 2 DEF to an Entangle.

- But only if that's what the Aid is bought for. The same Aid would not work on a person.

[DocSamson]

Would I allow it? Probably (almost certainly) not. Unless the SFX of the Entangle is that it's living tissue, it is illogical for something designed to in effect heal or reinforce bodies to fix a non-living barrier. It would be like expecting Paramedic to enable one to repair damage to a car. Would we allow Aid to BODY or PD to strengthen a brick wall? This is patent metagaming IMHO. It's an attempt to bypass probable campaign caps by stacking Powers rather than Advantages.

Yes, there might possibly be legitimate reasons to use Aid on inanimate objects. However, Entangle already has a built-in mechanism for increasing DEF or BODY. That is the method that should be used.

The BODY of a (human) character and the BODY of an Entangle (or other inanimate object) are not the same thing. The fact that we use the same word shouldn't confuse you too much. Just like the leg of a person and the leg of a table aren't the same thing, even though we use the same word for them.

So the BODY of an Entangle costs 5 points (assuming Standard Effect). So does the DEF, but DEF is DEFensive and therefore Adjustment Powers that affect it are halved. 20 pips on the effect dice could add 4 BODY or 2 DEF to an Entangle.

- But only if that's what the Aid is bought for. The same Aid would not work on a person.
I find these to be interesting arguements. Can either of you cite a reference that the BODY of an object and the BODY of a living being are different in regards to Aid or other Adjustment Powers (aside from Entangle)? How do you reconcile that a BODY Drain can be used both an object (including an Entangle) and a person? How much BODY does a Drain remove from an Entangle, 1 per 2pts. or 1 per 5pts.?

[DocSamson]

Here is a ruling on the cost of the BODY and DEF of an existing Entangle.

For purposes of Adjustment Powers (negative or positive), an Entangle’s BODY costs 2 Character Points per point; its DEF costs 3 Character Points per point. Whether a GM would allow this sort of thing is another question altogether.
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58177
It appears the cost of BODY is the same as that of a character in regards to adjustment powers.

In summary:
Aid does not affect exiting Entangles (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32425)
Drain does affect existing Entangles (5ER pg. 168)
The costs, in regards to adjustment powers, of an exisiting Entangle's BODY and DEF is 2 and 3 respectively.

[Bluefire]

Quick off the cuff response would be "No."

Reason would be that it is modifying a power that has already "attacked". If your going to "aid" the entangle, aid the power before you hit the heroes. Otherwise build it any one of the ways stated before, with my objection in mind.

Guess it comes down to how you think of the powers working together AND if you can convince your GM that it makes sense. As mentioned before, Aiding an already active entangle to me is an attempt to bypass the AP cap of the campaign.

But then again, I kinda think that adjustment powers are a bit broke. I won't go into that though.

^_^

[Sean Waters]

I'm not sure there is any principle that the Body of an object created with a power has a cost related tot eh power cost. Transform, for example, can create objects with Body but there is no real correlation between cost and Body, and I'd allow the Body of created objects to be, for instance, healed at 'normal Body' cost.

That is rather moot though because I think the general consensus is that Body boosting entangles is not appropriate, at least not with Aid.

[PhilFleischmann]

I find these to be interesting arguements. Can either of you cite a reference that the BODY of an object and the BODY of a living being are different in regards to Aid or other Adjustment Powers (aside from Entangle)? How do you reconcile that a BODY Drain can be used both an object (including an Entangle) and a person? How much BODY does a Drain remove from an Entangle, 1 per 2pts. or 1 per 5pts.?
I can only cite common sense. If I buy Healing for BODY, does that mean I should be able to "heal" inanimate objects? *Any* object? How 'bout Aid? I have to say no.

Maybe we can think of it as being similar to the "classes of minds" for Mental Powers. For Adjustment Powers, we have to decide if they work against people or things.

And if Adjustment Powers treat the BODY and DEF of Entangles as costing 2 and 3 points, respectively, why would anyone ever buy more than 1d6 of Entangle?

6 DEF, 6d6 Entangle = 60 points

or

1 DEF, 1d6 Entangle (10); plus
6d6 Aid to BODY and DEF (two chars, +1/2) (90 active), Only works on Entangles -1 (at least) (45)
On an average roll, you add 3 DEF and 10 BODY, for a total of 4 DEF, 11 BODY.
The Aid maxes out at +6 DEF and +18 BODY, for a total of 7 DEF and 19 BODY.
All for only 55 points!

And you can keep Aiding back the BODY as the target damages the Entangle.

[Rapier]

I wouldn't have a problem provided:

The SFX matched in some kind of manner (eg extra power for force bands or more glue for a sticky entanlge) and the Aid had some kind of "Entangle Only" type Lim.

[Sean Waters]

Mr Long has confirmed here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58177

That Entangle Body is adjusted at 2 points per point and DEF at 3 points per point. I thoroughly approve.

He also notes that a GM may well not allow this kind of shennanigan, which is, I believe, the conclusion we all came to.

As to inanimate objects and adjustment, I do allow inanimate objects to be Body drained/healed, but that is very much a judgement call in the current edition, although I am quite sure it was explicitly allowed to adjust inanimate objects in earlier editions.

[Hugh Neilson]

I can only cite common sense. If I buy Healing for BODY, does that mean I should be able to "heal" inanimate objects? *Any* object? How 'bout Aid? I have to say no.

Maybe we can think of it as being similar to the "classes of minds" for Mental Powers. For Adjustment Powers, we have to decide if they work against people or things.

Some default needs to be set, whether that's "affects living or non-living" or "affects everything; limit it if it doesn't". To me, that default should apply to all adjustment powers. If an Aid, by default, cannot bolster an automaton, an Entangle or a walll, then a Drain, by default, should not drain it. Phil, you don't mention negative adjustment powers above - do you feel these should also be segregated, or can Entangles be drained, but not healed?


And if Adjustment Powers treat the BODY and DEF of Entangles as costing 2 and 3 points, respectively, why would anyone ever buy more than 1d6 of Entangle?

6 DEF, 6d6 Entangle = 60 points

or

1 DEF, 1d6 Entangle (10); plus
6d6 Aid to BODY and DEF (two chars, +1/2) (90 active), Only works on Entangles -1 (at least) (45)
On an average roll, you add 3 DEF and 10 BODY, for a total of 4 DEF, 11 BODY.
The Aid maxes out at +6 DEF and +18 BODY, for a total of 7 DEF and 19 BODY.
All for only 55 points!

It's also a 100 AP power combination. A 10d6, 10 DEF entangle (also 100 AP) seems a lot more potent than the above.

You could also Link a 2d6, 4 DEF Entangle (30 AP, 20 real points after Linked) with a 10d6 Entangle with no Defense (100 AP, 40 real points) and also end up with an Entangle averaging 11 BOD and 4 DEF.

If it's a real concern, we could make this a corollary to the present rule for powers linked with an adjustment power. An ED Drain Linked with a fire blast acts second, so the EB goes against ED prior to the drain taking effect. Adopt the same rule for positive adjustment powers, such that the Aid automatically goes first, after which the Entangle has its effect. As the target was not Entangled prior to being hit, the Aid has nothing to enhance, so it does nothing, and the Entangle then appears as 1d6, 1 DEF. It would then require two attack actions to both entangle a target and Aid the entangle.


And you can keep Aiding back the BODY as the target damages the Entangle.

You can Aid it as many times as you want. However, the most you can add is 42 CP (21 BOD). That Entangle is Aided to 22 BOD. It takes 10 BOD damage. It is Aided to 22, - 10 = 12 remaining. Aid it again and it stays at 22 BOD - 10 BOD damage taken, just like anything else that's Aided, then damaged.

You could hit the target with a second Entangle, and Aid that back up, but that's not a lot different from hitting the target with a secoond full power Entangle. And that full power Entangkle has no fade rate.

[PhilFleischmann]

Some default needs to be set, whether that's "affects living or non-living" or "affects everything; limit it if it doesn't". To me, that default should apply to all adjustment powers. If an Aid, by default, cannot bolster an automaton, an Entangle or a walll, then a Drain, by default, should not drain it. Phil, you don't mention negative adjustment powers above - do you feel these should also be segregated, or can Entangles be drained, but not healed?
In general, no. Do you allow Entangles to buy Power Defense to resist the Drain? How about inanimate objects? As a general rule, if something doesn't even have the opportunity to buy a defense, then it shouldn't be effected by the attack. Sort of like automata with no EGO not being affected by mental powers, but getting no points back for "selling off" their EGO.

Part of the issue is the principle of not allowing one power to be more useful than another solely because of SFX. Most Adjustment Powers have an SFX that implies that it should only work on living things, or non-living things, but not both. I have no problem allowing the default be that they work on both, but the difference in utility must be reflected in the Real cost, such as with a "Only vs. Living Things" limitation.


It's also a 100 AP power combination. A 10d6, 10 DEF entangle (also 100 AP) seems a lot more potent than the above.
But we pay Real Points, not Active Points. That's 100 Real Points, vs. 55 Real Points. This is a separate discussion that we've had before, but IMO, Real Points mean a lot more than Active Points. Real Points are the true "bottom line."


You could also Link a 2d6, 4 DEF Entangle (30 AP, 20 real points after Linked) with a 10d6 Entangle with no Defense (100 AP, 40 real points) and also end up with an Entangle averaging 11 BOD and 4 DEF.
You could, provided a GM let you. Notice that I didn't even include Linked in my build, and I could have, along with other lims, such as "Only to aid Entangles made with this particular power," which would lower the real cost even more.


You can Aid it as many times as you want. However, the most you can add is 42 CP (21 BOD). That Entangle is Aided to 22 BOD. It takes 10 BOD damage. It is Aided to 22, - 10 = 12 remaining. Aid it again and it stays at 22 BOD - 10 BOD damage taken, just like anything else that's Aided, then damaged.
That's not my understanding of how Aid works.

Target Boy has 10 BODY normally.
Aid Man has 7d6 AID to BODY, and Aids Target Boy with the maximum of 21 BODY up to a total of 31.
Target Boy then takes a hit for 7 BODY. He's now down to 24. Where did these lost BODY points come from? The Aid or his base BODY? When the Aid fades, will he be down to 5? Or did the damage come "off the top" i.e., from the Aided points first?
Target Boy then takes a hit for 15 BODY. He's now down to 9.
Is the Aid now completely gone (which would imply that he can be Aided again, to a maximum of 30 this time, since he's lost one of his starting BODY)? Or does the Aid still fade, leaving him dead at -12?


You could hit the target with a second Entangle, and Aid that back up, but that's not a lot different from hitting the target with a secoond full power Entangle. And that full power Entangkle has no fade rate.
Assuming the target has some ability to damage the entangle and get out of it eventually anyway, the fade rate probably doesn't matter too much (if it does, you can always buy it down for fairly cheap). Why would you bother hitting the target with a second Entangle, which costs 5 points for each BODY added, when you could use an Aid to BODY, which costs 10 points to be able to add 3 BODY (and that's before limitations)?

[Sean Waters]

Under the description of Drain on p151, it is specifically mentioned that Body drain can affect objects, and objects drianed of their Body crumble to dust. This is what I';ve always used as the classic 'disintegration beam'.

I'd argue that if drain can affect objects then all adjustment powers can, as a default.

I'd say 'Can't affect non-living material' would be worth somewhere between -0 and -1/2, depending on what characteristic or power you are adjusting.

[MisterBaldy]

I think Hyper-Man raises some very valid concept ideas as alternatives to the Entangle/Aid dilemma. Personally I like his logic.

Hyper-Man... you have been REPPED for your valid concepts.:thumbup:

[Hugh Neilson]

That's not my understanding of how Aid works.

Target Boy has 10 BODY normally.
Aid Man has 7d6 AID to BODY, and Aids Target Boy with the maximum of 21 BODY up to a total of 31.
Target Boy then takes a hit for 7 BODY. He's now down to 24. Where did these lost BODY points come from? The Aid or his base BODY? When the Aid fades, will he be down to 5? Or did the damage come "off the top" i.e., from the Aided points first?
Target Boy then takes a hit for 15 BODY. He's now down to 9.
Is the Aid now completely gone (which would imply that he can be Aided again, to a maximum of 30 this time, since he's lost one of his starting BODY)? Or does the Aid still fade, leaving him dead at -12?

I generally rule that the Aided points are lost first. In your example, Target Boy now has 31 BOD, of which 7 are lost to wounds. A further Aid will do nothing. If target Boy has 5 points of Regeneration, and nothing else happens between now and PS 12, then, on PS 12,

- 5 points of Aid fade away, so Target Boy now has a 28 maximum BOD (and a half point left over)
- Target Boy regenerates to up to 29 BOD, so his max of 28

I'm inclined to suggest that, as a further fine-tuning rule, Aided BOD (or Aided anything else) work like Growth BOD. If you have 10 BOD, 20 with your 10 levels of Growth, and you get smacked for 6 BOD while grown, you are at 10 BOD when you shrink back down. But you need to recover those 6 BOD, or next time you grow, you still only have 14 BOD. The wound doesn't disappear when you shut off your growth, and now you have 20 BOD when you grow again next phase. It seems reasonable for Aid to function similarly.

[PhilFleischmann]

I generally rule that the Aided points are lost first.
Good. We're in agreement so far.


In your example, Target Boy now has 31 BOD, of which 7 are lost to wounds. A further Aid will do nothing. ...

- 5 points of Aid fade away, so Target Boy now has a 28 maximum BOD (and a half point left over)
This is where we disagree. I've alway played that an additional Aid could put him back up to 31. He was up to 31, lost 7 "off the top" to hits, and lost 2.5 more to the fade. I'd say a further Aid can bring him all the way back up to 31 (restoring the lost 9.5 BODY).

If however, Target Boy had been hit for 7 BODY, prior to the Aid, he'd have been down to 3, then the Aid takes him up to a max of 24, which will eventually fade down to 3 again (assuming no Regen or or weeks of medical care).


I'm inclined to suggest that, as a further fine-tuning rule, Aided BOD (or Aided anything else) work like Growth BOD. If you have 10 BOD, 20 with your 10 levels of Growth, and you get smacked for 6 BOD while grown, you are at 10 BOD when you shrink back down. But you need to recover those 6 BOD, or next time you grow, you still only have 14 BOD. The wound doesn't disappear when you shut off your growth, and now you have 20 BOD when you grow again next phase. It seems reasonable for Aid to function similarly.
I completely agree that this is how Growth should (and AFAIK, does) work. But I don't see any reason to assume that Aid ought to work the same way. But this is a little off the subject.

If BODY Aids can add to Entangles or inanimate objects as well as people, can SPD, DEX, STR or Running Aids add to vehicles as well as people?

If so, extra utility is granted to Aids of certain powers/characteristics that are posessed by both characters and things, but no extra utility is give no Aids that affect other Characteristics, such as STUN or EGO or CON. A BODY Aid costs the same as an EGO Aid (and has the same total effect, since the cost of the two characteristics is the same), but one has far greater applicability than the other. Is that the way it should be?

[Hugh Neilson]

This is where we disagree. I've alway played that an additional Aid could put him back up to 31. He was up to 31, lost 7 "off the top" to hits, and lost 2.5 more to the fade. I'd say a further Aid can bring him all the way back up to 31 (restoring the lost 9.5 BODY).

Well, we disagree. I'm not sure there is an official ruling, though. I'll ask for one. Then we won;t have to argue about what the rule is and we can argue over whether Steve's ruling is appropriate instead ;)


If BODY Aids can add to Entangles or inanimate objects as well as people, can SPD, DEX, STR or Running Aids add to vehicles as well as people?

If so, extra utility is granted to Aids of certain powers/characteristics that are posessed by both characters and things, but no extra utility is give no Aids that affect other Characteristics, such as STUN or EGO or CON. A BODY Aid costs the same as an EGO Aid (and has the same total effect, since the cost of the two characteristics is the same), but one has far greater applicability than the other. Is that the way it should be?

I think the same logic applies. A Running Aid also costs the same, and grants the same boost, as a Flight Aid, but almost everyone has Running and not so many have Flight. Should that be changed? Should Self Only be worth more for the Running Aid than the Flight Aid, since there were more valid targets for the Running Aid than the Flight Aid? They weren't all equal to begin with, so this doesn't change much.

[PhilFleischmann]

I think the same logic applies. A Running Aid also costs the same, and grants the same boost, as a Flight Aid, but almost everyone has Running and not so many have Flight. Should that be changed? Should Self Only be worth more for the Running Aid than the Flight Aid, since there were more valid targets for the Running Aid than the Flight Aid? They weren't all equal to begin with, so this doesn't change much.
But that's a tiny difference compared to BODY. Every physical object in the universe, living or not, has a BODY score. Only a tiny class of objects in the universe have an EGO score.

Also, is "DEF" a characteristic for characters? No, not really. Characters have PD and ED, and maybe Damage Resistance and other defensive powers, but they don't have DEF as a single characteristic. So does an Aid to DEF work on people? Or would an Aid to PD and ED simultaneously (+1/2) be treated the same as an Aid to DEF?

One other angle of approach: Suppose you have an Aid to DEF (or to rPD and rED simultaneously, however you decide to buy it). And suppose your buddy, a mighty warrior is going out to battle and you want to buff him up as much as possible. He's all decked out in his suit of armor. Can you max out your Aid on both him (a character) and on the armor (an inanimate object)? If so, 1d6 Aid would allow you to add a total of 4 DEF (4 rPD and 4 rED) to his total defenses, 2 DEF on him and 2 more on his armor. In fact, he doesn't even need to be wearing armor, you could just increase the DEF of his ordinary clothes (another inanimate object with a DEF score).

[Hugh Neilson]

But that's a tiny difference compared to BODY. Every physical object in the universe, living or not, has a BODY score. Only a tiny class of objects in the universe have an EGO score.

And Aiding COM is seldom as useful as aiding STR in a combat-focused game. The character can also buy an NND that does BOD. Does that affect objects? If so, that's a huge multiplier to the targets he can affect, since inanimate objects rarely have Stun. let's look further...

4d6 BOD Drain, Ranged - 60 points, average 7 BOD.
2 1/2d6 NND [power defense] RKA, Does BOD (120 AP) Does no Stun (-1) = 60 points. Average 9 BOD. I can't affect the few targets with a little power defense, but I do 28.6% more BOD per hit.


Also, is "DEF" a characteristic for characters? No, not really. Characters have PD and ED, and maybe Damage Resistance and other defensive powers, but they don't have DEF as a single characteristic. So does an Aid to DEF work on people? Or would an Aid to PD and ED simultaneously (+1/2) be treated the same as an Aid to DEF?

I'd say you can rationalize the system by making objects buy PD, ED and Damage Resistance. However, I also would suggest that their defenses cost 3x what a character pays, just as if they were automatons. They take no Stun.


One other angle of approach: Suppose you have an Aid to DEF (or to rPD and rED simultaneously, however you decide to buy it). And suppose your buddy, a mighty warrior is going out to battle and you want to buff him up as much as possible. He's all decked out in his suit of armor. Can you max out your Aid on both him (a character) and on the armor (an inanimate object)? If so, 1d6 Aid would allow you to add a total of 4 DEF (4 rPD and 4 rED) to his total defenses, 2 DEF on him and 2 more on his armor. In fact, he doesn't even need to be wearing armor, you could just increase the DEF of his ordinary clothes (another inanimate object with a DEF score).

Sure. if you use it on the character, the PD and ED which subtracts from damage done to the character is increased. If you use it on the armor, the armor's PD and ED (or DEF) goes up. Of course, that DEF is only used to determine damage to the armor, just like Cap's unbreakable shield does not provide him with unlimited PD/ED.

[PhilFleischmann]

And Aiding COM is seldom as useful as aiding STR in a combat-focused game.
True, but the Aid is not the issue there. COM ins't as useful as STR, even without an Aid. There have been discussions on this, such as about getting rid of the COM stat completely.


I'd say you can rationalize the system by making objects buy PD, ED and Damage Resistance. However, I also would suggest that their defenses cost 3x what a character pays, just as if they were automatons. They take no Stun.
So would that be 6 points per point of DEF [(1 PD + 1 ED) x 3], or 3 points, as characters pay (1 PD + 1 ED + 1 to make them both Resistant)?


Sure. if you use it on the character, the PD and ED which subtracts from damage done to the character is increased. If you use it on the armor, the armor's PD and ED (or DEF) goes up. Of course, that DEF is only used to determine damage to the armor, just like Cap's unbreakable shield does not provide him with unlimited PD/ED.
Excellent! It does seem a bit odd for the armor to be tougher for itself, but not provide additional protection, but it does work with the rules.

BTW, I've been reading through the sample powers in TUMM, and I see various Adjustment Powers defined as manipulating biological processes (including Aids and Drains to BODY). None of them that I've seen so far have a limitation for not being able to affect inanimate objects, but their SFX clearly implies that they only work on living creatures.

[Hugh Neilson]

So would that be 6 points per point of DEF [(1 PD + 1 ED) x 3], or 3 points, as characters pay (1 PD + 1 ED + 1 to make them both Resistant)?

I would call it 3 for 1 PD + 1ED +1 to make them resistant, x3 = 9 points, the same as an automaton would pay for +1 rPD and +1 rED.


Excellent! It does seem a bit odd for the armor to be tougher for itself, but not provide additional protection, but it does work with the rules.

A mace to the helmet could leave the helmet itself undented, but still rattle the brains of the head inside, so I'm OK with this.


BTW, I've been reading through the sample powers in TUMM, and I see various Adjustment Powers defined as manipulating biological processes (including Aids and Drains to BODY). None of them that I've seen so far have a limitation for not being able to affect inanimate objects, but their SFX clearly implies that they only work on living creatures.

This is the real problem, in my opinion - there is no explicit default, and no consideration has ever been given to one. Those examples imply the default is "biological entities only", but the FAQ entry noted earlier that an object Drained to 0 BOD crumbles to dust indicates objects are affected. Depending on the default, one would expect either a limitation where the ability adjusts something inanimate objects possess and the power only affects living creatures, or an advantage to affect inanimate objects.

Would those TUMM powers technically affect an automaton? What about an android made entirely of metal (no biology) but possessing STUN points?