Comic/genre "Ages"

[Elysea]

There's a lot of reference to ages - golden age, silver age, bronze age, etc - when describing Champs campaigns. I'm only an intermediate comic book fan; I can tell the original JSA from the JLA, I know how many Robins there have been, but I wouldn't be able to tell you what happened at Zero Hour or Genesis or intelligently compare and contrast the X-Men of today to their original stories.

Could someone wise and knowledgeable break down what the various ages are like, and how they make for different types of campaigns in Champs? I'd be very grateful. I've been playing Champs only since 4th Edition, I must confess, and it's been one nice, long campaign the whole way, so I'm curious to know what other shades of Champs there are out there. :)

Apologies for my ignorance, etc etc, thank you very much!

[SleepyDrug]

Golden Age - comics from WWII to around 1960. Extremely 4-color, not much continuity. Heroes are ALWAYS pure and good, and without major personality or socio-economic flaws. Villains are ALWAYS evil and dastardly; criminal motives are simple.

Silver Age - circa Amazing Fantasy 15 to about mid to late 80's. This is when the JLA, X-Men, FF, Avengers, Spider-Man, and other major heroes of the modern age had their early adventures. more continuity. heroes now have some flaws (for example, the Thing's horrific appearance and bad attitude or Spider-Man's poverty and nerd image). This would be essentially 4-color with a bit of grittiness. Most villains are world-conquerors or money motivated.

Bronze Age - from the mid to late 80's to the mid-90's. This is marked by more realism creeping into comics. A few politically motivated villains, some villains more complex (Magneto). Heroes are complex individuals. Powers have more thought and realistic mechanism behind their functioning.

Iron/Modern Age - late 90's to present. World, Heroes, and Villains are all very complex; Many shades of grey.

[VictorVonDoom]

Look up the book champions universe if you want the ages in Champions Universe...
each era has his/her champions depicted in it with powers, stats and background for playing

[TechnoViking]

SAS (Silver Age Sentiels) has a very good description of the different comic book ages

Mike

[austenandrews]

And remember that the "ages" have very disputed boundaries. Mine differ greatly from SleepyDrug's, and the next guy's will be different from both of ours.

-AA

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by SleepyDrug

Silver Age - circa Amazing Fantasy 15 to about mid to late 80's. This is when the JLA, X-Men, FF, Avengers, Spider-Man, and other major heroes of the modern age had their early adventures. more continuity. heroes now have some flaws (for example, the Thing's horrific appearance and bad attitude or Spider-Man's poverty and nerd image). This would be essentially 4-color with a bit of grittiness. Most villains are world-conquerors or money motivated.


Also a lot of silver age had the whole fantastic science attitude. Barry Allen was a scientists, Hal Jordan went into space, the FF were piloting a spaceship, plus Reed's who schtick. And lots of talking apes. Talking apes are very silver age. Hmm.. talking ape who is a scientist. And have silver in his name...... ;)

[Darren Watts]

Austen's right- everybody has their own boundaries. For me, the Golden Age begins with Action #1, even though superheroes like Dr. Occult predate Superman. It ends with the conversion of All-Star Comics from a superhero title to a Western in 1951. There's a brief interregnum, then the Silver Age begins with Showcase #4 (featuring the first appearance of Barry Allen as the Flash, first of DC revamped hero lineup) in 1956, and runs to either Speedy taking heroin in 1971 or Gwen Stacy dying in 1973, depending on my mood that day. The Bronze Age picks up immediately after that and runs until the releases of Dark Knight and Watchmen in 1985-86. That heralds the Iron Age, which we're still in.

I'm sure almost nobody will agree with me on each specific, but when I use those terms that's what I'm referring to. Everybody draws their own lines. dw

[Doug McCrae]

Hero Games has defined the terms as follows in the document 'Hero System - Genre by Genre', which you can download from this website:

Golden Age Champions
“The Golden Age” refers to the comics in the period around World War II and some years thereafter, and usually focuses on the activities of superheroes and villains during the War. While the adventures typically consist of fighting enemies and villains on the homefront, some campaigns allow the PCs to invade Europe, participate in famous battles, and the like.

Golden Age Champions superheroes are usually built on fewer points than other heroes (often the Low-Powered variant of 100 Base Points + 150 Disadvantages), and are usually simpler and easier to construct. They tend not to have complicated or unusual powers — after all, at this stage of history, superhumans are a new thing, and just having a plain old Energy Blast or Flight ability is remarkable enough, without slapping lots of Advantages on it!

Silver Age Champions
Comics historians and fans use the term “the Silver Age” to describe the period from roughly 1956 to 1972 (although some choose different dates). During this time, many classic characters (including all the most famous Marvel characters) were created or re-defined, and many motifs and themes now common to comics (such as a focus on the perils and problems that come from being a superhero) emerged. The style is eclectic, often retaining some of the innocence and pure heroism of the Golden Age, but tinged (particularly later on) with the social awareness and “realism” that became important in comics in later years. Heroes are typically colorful, with bright costumes and larger-than-life attitudes.

In many ways, Silver Age Champions represents the “typical” or “default” type of Champions campaign. It’s a great era for teams of superheroes, and features all the common “bits” without altering any of them too much. It appeals to gamers who don’t want their games to become too serious or “gritty” — who enjoy a combination of action and humor touched by drama. Silver Age heroes are usually built on the Low-Powered total of 150 Base Points + 100 Disadvantages.

Bronze Age Champions
“The Bronze Age” refers to the comics of the 1970s and early ’80s. Comics during this period are marked primarily by a slow shift away from the “Comics Code”-oriented stories and characters of the Silver Age to more mature themes. Heroes sometimes found themselves confronting issues of mortality, societal unrest, drug abuse, and the like. Bronze Age heroes are usually built on the Standard 250 Base Points + 100 Disadvantages. Some variations on the theme focus on lower powered heroes and how they interact with normal humans (who are much more of a potential threat to them than they are to normal, four-color superheroes).

Iron Age Champions
“The Iron Age” refers to comics from the mid-1980s until the present day. During this time, the trends that began in the Bronze Age continued. The Comics Code was often ignored altogether, as heroes and stories shifted from gaudy costumes and “simple” heroic attitudes and conduct, and more towards “realism” and “grittiness”: characters favor darker costumes, leather, and the like; they’re more likely to kill or seriously injure their opponents; they have a harder, more practical, attitude toward superheroing; and they spend more time coping with the “realistic” implications of having superpowers, the effects of their powers on the world around them, and so forth. The settings are often more likely to be inner-city environments or other “realistic” places instead of a supervillain’s secret headquarters or a space station. In short, the heroes often are no longer “four-color,” as gamers sometimes call Golden and Silver Age characters. Iron Age heroes are usually built on the Standard 250 Base Points + 100 Disadvantages.


I understand that, when the terms are used to apply to roleplaying games rather than comics, a Gold->Iron Age campaign could be set in any time period. People often seem to set games with a Silver Age tone in the present, for example.

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by SleepyDrug
Golden Age - comics from WWII to around 1960. Extremely 4-color, not much continuity. Heroes are ALWAYS pure and good, and without major personality or socio-economic flaws. Villains are ALWAYS evil and dastardly; criminal motives are simple.What about the Prankster, Toyman and Mr. Mxyztplk? What about the "loving enemy" - the female villain who loves the hero and isn't really evil? Catwoman for example.

Some Golden Age heroes were killer vigilantes. Batman and Superman were both quite prepared to kill in the very early stages of the GA, but developed stricter moral codes later on.

[Lupus]

Any system of 'ages' has bleed-through. That is, history doesn't move in definite breaks. For one, the breaks will be different in each comic. It'll also be blurry for a long time and, even in the iron age, you'll run into silver-age-type stories. I'm also sure you'd find bronze-age stories in silver- or gold-age comics (though I don't know of any myself). Of course, the storytelling style will be different. Perhaps that's more of a marker of age.

In music, we got the break between classical and romantic period happening anywhere between 1800 and 1850. You can get enormous arguments between music buffs about whether Beethoven should be counted as classical or romantic, and what year the break should be put at. It's all silly, really, since there is no simple break point.

It's the same with comics. :) We can all think of examples of modern comics that are pretty much bronze age rather than iron. (Of course, I hate most iron-age comics. But that's personal opinion and not valid input into a discussion of the historical development of the genre.)

[Doug McCrae]

I don't agree with some of the 'Hero System - Genre by Genre' analysis but I thought I'd put my disagreements in another post, for clarity.

Golden Age. Some important heroes of the period wielded awesome power and would be hard to build on 250pts - The Spectre, Doctor Fate and Green Lantern.

Silver Age. I think it's important to distinguish between DC Silver Age and Marvel Silver Age. The Marvel Age only began in 1961 and though it began to influence DC, that took a few years. Batman was still going on jaunts into space until 1964! The trends of ugly heroes (Thing, Hulk), bickering teams (FF, Avengers), heroes with real world problems (blind, lame, social stigma), the reader identification hero (Spider-man) were pure Marvel. Over at DC, heroes had problems but they weren't real world - vulnerable to glowing green rocks, can't use powers on anything coloured yellow.

In the Silver Age a truly wonderful mythology was constructed for Superman - the lost world of Krypton, the Fortress of Solitude, the Bottle City of Kandor, the Superman-Emergency Squad, Lori Lemaris. There was really nothing like that over at Marvel.

Iron Age. Amongst the developments of this age, one of the most important was the trend towards postmodern or retro comics. In other words, in a minority of comics things got less realistic! Examples: 1963, Astro City, Supreme, Big Bang, DC's Silver Age, Grant Morrison's JLA, Marvel's Heroes Return, Planetary, Tom Strong.

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by Lupus
I'm also sure you'd find bronze-age stories in silver- or gold-age comics (though I don't know of any myself). Of course, the storytelling style will be different. Perhaps that's more of a marker of age.They weren't too big on pondering the meaning of life in the Golden or Silver Ages. They were too busy smashing the nazis or commies.

[VictorVonDoom]

Champions Universe is a universe on his own; Did you ever seen Captain America or other characters in their universe? They have created a parallel universe on DC/Marvel universe with their own touches: True...Marvel also has Atlantis in it and Lemuria is used (by the Deviants); They have their own storylines ; Nothing what happened in MU happened in CU or visa versa ...some characters are build on templates of DC, Marvel heroes that is because Champions is a comic/genre book and it uses them right...
The ages they show are the ages relevant to their universe : some have crossovers with our universe , other have links with DC universe..and some are simply build from scratch

That is how i see it after only reading "'Champions Universe"

[Rage]

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom
Champions Universe is a universe on his own; Did you ever seen Captain America or other characters in their universe? They have created a parallel universe on DC/Marvel universe with their own touches: True...Marvel also has Atlantis in it and Lemuria is used (by the Deviants); They have their own storylines ; Nothing what happened in MU happened in CU or visa versa ...some characters are build on templates of DC, Marvel heroes that is because Champions is a comic/genre book and it uses them right...
The ages they show are the ages relevant to their universe : some have crossovers with our universe , other have links with DC universe..and some are simply build from scratch

That is how i see it after only reading "'Champions Universe"

No way, really? WHO COULD HAVE THOUGHT

Next time I need to explain to Batman why he can't exsist in our world I know who to call!
:: two thumbs way up ::

(sorry, I mock cause I care)

[Zaratustra]

Personally, I think we're past the Iron Age, or at least past the 'disaster area' of the 90s (Death of Superman, Hal Jordan goes nuts, Aunt May dies, Aunt May isn't dead, Little May dies, Mary Jane dies, everyone dies, etc). DC comics seem more epic and iconic these days (Return to the 'base' JLA members, churning Elseworlds like a machine), and Marvel is busy playing with their Ultimate Aglhblhgalhga to get younger people to read the comics or something. Oh, yeah, and the -movies-. Dunno how the movies figure in.
Spawn, The Great Boogie Man Of The Modern Age of Comics, faded into... well, fadehood.

So what is the current Comics Age? Ice Age? No idea. :)

[ChaosDrgn]

A few things that have been forgotten in the silver age era, at least on the Marvel side of things

Radiation and Monsters.

OK ok...maybe add radiation to "science" but you have to remember what has come out of it. Peter Parker was bitten by a RADIOACTIVE spider, the X-Men got the powers normally throught their parents being exposed to RADIATION, the Fantastic Four gained their powers going through the RADIATION belt. Hulk..etc....Radiation was a big t hing in comics and real life back then simply because they didn't know or wasn't sure what it would do to people. Remember duck & cover?

Also...Monsters...Marvel was coming out of it's monster book period and still featured several monsters in their books. HECK, the HULK was originally a monster book. The Thing was supposed to be the monster of the Fantastic Four (well..he's a monster, but he's a hero and has feelings..hm...). You also had other stories as well though...Fin Fang Foom, Spragg the Living Hill, etc..

Also what isn't really talked about much anymore is this lil trivia piece. Back when they did the monster books they usualy had some blonde haired & blue-eyed scientist who would get into the strangest adventures because of his experiments. Even though they called him different names it seemed to be the same guy over and over again. What happened to him? He shrunk himself down and had an adventure through an ant-hole, later joining the Avengers (this from interviews with John Byrne, Stan Lee, & others during the 80s, so I admit it's not 100% "fact").

Also something of the Silver Age is the group dynamic. As Alston has written a number of times there is normally a group of closenit people...the scientist, the jock/friend, the jock's girlfriend, etc. The best example is Fantastic Four and Challenger's of the Unknown. DC/Kirby was the best at this...Rip Hunter, Cave Carson, and others.

[ChaosDrgn]

Originally posted by Zaratustra
Personally, I think we're past the Iron Age, or at least past the 'disaster area' of the 90s (Death of Superman, Hal Jordan goes nuts, Aunt May dies, Aunt May isn't dead, Little May dies, Mary Jane dies, everyone dies, etc).

So what is the current Comics Age? Ice Age? No idea. :)

As I've seen one person post on another board we seem to be in the Vacuum age. Exp. when it comes to Marvel and it's pratices. Does anyone really recognize their characters anymore?

In all seriousness I think we're in the Paperback age. Most comics are written with little storylines that can later be bundled into Trade paperbacks and sold to the masses. At least it seems to me that that's how comics are written anymore. No concern for the month to month issues. Yes there are some excpetions to this, but look at the majority of the comics. Marvel does Origin & Ultimate Daredevil & Electra...a week or so AFTER the last issue comes out the TPB hits the stand. DC does "War of Worlds" and maybe a month after it's over Vol 1. of the TPB set comes out. Dark Horse seems to set their books around that schedule (exp the Buffy & Star Wars books (oh wait..they pretty much only do Buffy and Star Wars..nevermind..).

[VictorVonDoom]

X-men don't have their powers from radiations via their parents; Their parents are simple humans. It is in the genes: the thing (mutation) is activated when they enter puberty

Hulk is a radiation accidentee (Big G in the desert -> Gamma bomb)

[Hermit]

I think we're hoping for a steel age, a blending of various metals to make something that is both stronger, and yet more attractive than past efforts.

Not sure we're there yet.

[ChaosDrgn]

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom
X-men don't have their powers from radiations via their parents; Their parents are simple humans. It is in the genes: the thing (mutation) is activated when they enter puberty

Hulk is a radiation accidentee (Big G in the desert -> Gamma bomb)

I have to disagree. Their parents were exposed to radiation at some point which affected their offspring. It may be a bit of retconing on Marvel's part but it is the way they (the editors/writers at the time) described things.

And again, go back and look at interviews. Lee wrote the Hulk as and he first appeared IN a monster book. Rather he's a fantasy monster or one from radiation isn't that big a point, look at all the "horror" films back in the 50/60's with the giant ants.

[Pattern Ghost]

X-Men = Children of the .... ready for this... ATOM!!!

Silver Age = Lots of nuke anxiety.

[VictorVonDoom]

Genes = Atomsized :) (Atom because the characters were created in a peroid the atomic bomb served as a warning for other nations (remember Cuba Crisis))

It is later that mutations were look upon as genepool
The Virus that was rampaging in the Mutantcommunity was like Aids but it was genetic engineerd by Strife. He didn't release an atomic device to invoke it.. He invented it based on the genetic makeup of mutants;

I have a mutation of my own: i was not irradiated to have it; It is geneindepended and can be brought over to other people of my family. My mutation lies on chromosome 14, there is a gene called Fybriline: The mutation is called Marfan Syndrome
We are mostly all made out of water and water is created out atoms of H and O; Our flesh is created out of atoms; each fiber and piece of iron remember F in Chemistry (atomic name)
and so on
that is why the x-men were called children of the Atom not because they were "irradiated" or their parents

You can look at mutations like the talents work in HEROgames : they happen at some point and the people gain them per accident (when they least expected it: with me a doctor found it per accident when i was 12)

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom
X-men don't have their powers from radiations via their parents; Their parents are simple humans. It is in the genes: the thing (mutation) is activated when they enter puberty

Hulk is a radiation accidentee (Big G in the desert -> Gamma bomb)

Um, Vic...were do you think people get their genes?

(Answer: From their parents.)

And what do you think mutated the genes?

(Answer: Radiation.)

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom
Genes = Atomsized :) (Atom because the characters were created in a peroid the atomic bomb served as a warning for other nations (remember Cuba Crisis))

It is later that mutations were look upon as genepool
The Virus that was rampaging in the Mutantcommunity was like Aids but it was genetic engineerd by Strife. He didn't release an atomic device to invoke it.. He invented it based on the genetic makeup of mutants;

I have a mutation of my own: i was not irradiated to have it; It is geneindepended and can be brought over to other people of my family. My mutation lies on chromosome 14, there is a gene called Fybriline: The mutation is called Marfan Syndrome
We are mostly all made out of water and water is created out atoms of H and O; Our flesh is created out of atoms; each fiber and piece of iron remember F in Chemistry (atomic name)
and so on
that is why the x-men were called children of the Atom not because they were "irradiated" or their parents

You can look at mutations like the talents work in HEROgames : they happen at some point and the people gain them per accident (when they least expected it: with me a doctor found it per accident when i was 12)

(Iron is Fe, by the way.)

This may come as a shock to you, but the X-Men really are called the "Children of the Atom" because of the importance of atomic testing, radiation, fear of nuclear war, etc, to their origins and background.

[Stray Cat]

Confession: I have only read the last few posts of this thread..

With the aforementioned disclaimer.. I thought mutants like the X-Men were merely the next step in evolution acc. to the Marvel guys. Not necessarily radiation accidents or what-have-ya.

I thought that Marvel even went as far as saying that there was a difference between mutants (X-Men) and mutates (Spidey, the FF, Hulk, etc.), or is that just the old TSR MSH game?

Cat

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Stray Cat
Confession: I have only read the last few posts of this thread..

With the aforementioned disclaimer.. I thought mutants like the X-Men were merely the next step in evolution acc. to the Marvel guys. Not necessarily radiation accidents or what-have-ya.

I thought that Marvel even went as far as saying that there was a difference between mutants (X-Men) and mutates (Spidey, the FF, Hulk, etc.), or is that just the old TSR MSH game?

Cat

Take everything from that game with a boulder of salt.

[ChaosDrgn]

Originally posted by Stray Cat
I thought that Marvel even went as far as saying that there was a difference between mutants (X-Men) and mutates (Spidey, the FF, Hulk, etc.), or is that just the old TSR MSH game?
Cat

X-Men = Mutant

Spider-Man, Hulk, Fantastic-Four = Alterated Human.

[Doug McCrae]

In X-Men #1 (1963) Professor X addresses his X-Men thusly:

"I was born of parents who had worked on the first A-bomb project! Like yourselves I am a mutant... possibly the first such mutant!"

It doesn't say anything specifically about the X-Men's parents being exposed to radiation, but I think the implication is that they got a dose from the A-bomb detonations in Japan and nuclear tests in the late 40s.

I'm not up on later developments in Marvel but is it not the case that in the late 80s, early 90s virtually everyone was a mutant (except Thor)?

Was it also determined sometime in the 90s that the preponderance of terrestrial superheroes was due to genetic tampering by the Kree? Aliens. Is there anything they're not responsible for?

So it seems the Silver Age X-Men were the result of radiation, but the Iron Age X-Men, like most other superheroes, were caused by alien genetic manipulation. The Unified Origin Theory.

[VictorVonDoom]

In the Ultimate Powers Book (MSH) there were a several Branches of different Mutants. By Rolling you could got "by accident" and picked "Radiation" but sometimes the radiation came from a different Alien source like the Celestials who implated the genes in some bodies, maybe they used radiation
but i like to follow the Silver age theory...


Children of the Atoms refers to the Atomic Age (In the Avenger Quicksilver calls him self a mutant)
In earlier movies from the 50 'THEM" the giant Ants were mutations of the radiation but they were critters not humans
The Hulk was born out of Gamma Radiation. So Mutants like the X-men are Gamma Radiated too; No..I don't guess so..
The title refers to the fear : indeed but not how they were produced.
Example Cyclops:
the parents are normal parents; Neither had suffered radiation...

The parents of Scott summers were stopped by the Shiar. Scott was abducted by Mr Sinister who trained him in using his optical blast. When scott fell the area of his head that controlled his Blasts was damaged hence he can no longer control his blast so he needs to wear goggles
He escaped Mr Sinister went to Xavier and in the Inferno aftermath he killed a MR Sinisterclone because the suppressed memory of been tortured helped him killing MR Sinister...

Beast got his mutation from Apocalypse before that he could simple jump and had no fur
Alle parents of the X-men were normal people... not affected by radiation


We are all Children of the Computer age : thus that makes us what Robots ?

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom
In the Ultimate Powers Book (MSH) there were a several Branches of different Mutants. By Rolling you could got "by accident" and picked "Radiation" but sometimes the radiation came from a different Alien source like the Celestials who implated the genes in some bodies, maybe they used radiation
but i like to follow the Silver age theory...

Children of the Atoms refers to the Atomic Age (In the Avenger Quicksilver calls him self a mutant)
In earlier movies from the 50 'THEM" the giant Ants were mutations of the radiation but they were critters not humans
The Hulk was born out of Gamma Radiation. So Mutants like the X-men are Gamma Radiated too; No..I don't guess so..
The title refers to the fear : indeed but not how they were produced.
Example Cyclops:
the parents are normal parents; Neither had suffered radiation...

The parents of Scott summers were stopped by the Shiar. Scott was abducted by Mr Sinister who trained him in using his optical blast. When scott fell the area of his head that controlled his Blasts was damaged hence he can no longer control his blast so he needs to wear goggles
He escaped Mr Sinister went to Xavier and in the Inferno aftermath he killed a MR Sinisterclone because the suppressed memory of been tortured helped him killing MR Sinister...

Beast got his mutation from Apocalypse before that he could simple jump and had no fur
Alle parents of the X-men were normal people... not affected by radiation

We are all Children of the Computer age : thus that makes us what Robots ?

Look, if you want to go around confused about the whole thing, go ahead. Never mind that people who actually know what's going on have explained it to you.

[ChaosDrgn]

And what I said was based on what people have said in interviews, people like Stan Lee who co-created the X-Men in the first place. It was also said in a silver age context. NOT the context that so called marvel writers have given it in the past 15 years.

And Scott Summers father was a MILITARY pilot who flew spy missions (yes, some retcon from the 80s/90s). So odds are at some point he may have come around radiation. WE don't know if he did or not, odds are he did.

If Doom wants to go by what's written in a rpg that his choice. This thread started with someone asking what kind of things broke down the different "ages" of comics and to me some of the big things were Monsters and Radiation. And if we're not careful he might start ranting that Doom really is a Dr. and graduated college.

[VictorVonDoom]

Listen people I know a lot of history on comic books.
I am not a college teacher. I am just a guy with great interesses in comics and sometimes i see mistakes myself and want to put that in the right perspective. (Did you ever read the triggereffect below? Well I wasn't joking about autisme; This is really ennoying people thinking that i am confused)

*Trigger activated: purpose : Silly thing happened

No I am not confused. Here i am TOTALLY in the subject and don't confuse me (yes YOU people) with your alternate theories how the Mutants have evolved. And it is about evolution (Darwin wrote a book about it);
I have a mutation too remember it... I know what it is... I need to go each year on a heart / endoscopic research ; each time they plug me at their machines and see how my heart is evolving (Marfan is a linked with the heart) and they jam a 250.000 euro Endoscopic device in my throat to see if i am alright. I take beta-blockers for my heart
So don't tell ME what mutation is . It is not from radiation period... cappisch
*Trigger solved
So i had to rant on that one... Still where was it told Scotts dad flew missions. (Issue...) ?? Where was that speculation that he might have gotten radiation
Theories of 15 years ago can change abit. Evolution also changed a bit. What we now know about Neanthertal people are far more than we knew it 100 years ago when we thought they were big apes...Now they are people
Why can comic evolve in some fasion? comics evolved from silver age to iron age so do we from prehistoric age to informatic age. So did we evolve? Yes...Why? Because we learned what the previous era gave us. So comic evolved to in that way: from monsters to mutants, from mad-sciencst to supervillans , from pirates to StarJammers, from mutant monsters to Mutant Heroes....
I know also abit about normal history..

PS Hulk was never a mutant...
PS I use MSH as my guide
PS you use Ultimate Power Book as guide?

[Kristopher]

Not all genetic disorders are mutations.

If the X-Men and their kind were just a stage of evolution, they wouldn't really be mutants.

[VictorVonDoom]

Evolutions evolved Homo Erectus in Homo Habilis and Homo Habilis (Inside Homo Habilis you have Neanthertaler and Cromagnon) in.

Marvel adds an new step: Homo Superior (Marvel)
Magneto calls them another race...
We are maybe as confused as the people are in the comics: are mutants freaks of nature or a evolution of nature?
Professor X looks at them as a stage of Evolution: look at the trailer of the first X-men movie: it says it...

PS my genetic Disorder is a mutation. If it jumps between several people of the family (now it is almost 30 people) it is def. a mutation. My mutation don't gives me any "advantages" only "disadvantages " and it makes me very limited

[Kristopher]

Victor, I'm going to be nice here and tell you that you're wrong about human evolution, about which homonids fit where and when in the scheme, and a few other things.

Cro Magnon were definately not a subset of homo habilus. They were, in fact, homo sapiens, just like modern man.

Neanderthals, there's some debate about. Were they a seperate species (homo neanderthalis) or a subspecies (homo sapiens neanderthalis)?

Re: Marfan's and mutation, From eCureMe.com: "Mutations may be seen in chromosome 15, but no single test establishes the diagnosis."

In other words, it's a disorder of a segment on chromosome 15, but it's not a single specific mutant gene.

[Stray Cat]

Okay... Doom aside...

Children of the Atom... The reference was originally about the *atomic age.* Not about radiation mutations in the parents of the X-Men. Yes there was atomic anxiety during the post-war years. All these monster and horror movies with an atomic theme... Not one of them dealt with the mutated children of someone exposed to radiation. They dealt with the exposed person directly. The worry over the next generation didn't come until later.

Are all the mutants in the Marvel Universe that aren't explained specifically supposed to be defaulted to radiation exposure? If that's what the writers at Marvel are doin, then I'm glad I stopped readin their comics regularly about ten years ago.

BTW Kristopher, your tone with Doom has not been pleasant. Mutations can occur spontaneously - without radiation. I'd venture to say that more evolutionary progress has been made due to spontaneous mutation than radiation exposure.

Cat

[VictorVonDoom]

My Marfan syndrom is a mutation. If i have a kid, 50 % of my children will have the mutation (Fibriline gen)
I know a doctor in Genetic research...

I didn't say the children of the Atom stand form been Mutated by Radiation > Chaos ;
Kristopher: do you have someone with the Marfan Sydrome?
Do you know what is like been in hospitals for more then 30 years? (i am 35)

I understand : Atom = atomic bomb but not Mutants are victims of radiations (or parents are victims)

Some mutation (like M.) is evolved by a mishap in the genetic structure on 1/600 people maybe more
So what if in MU that mishap gave them a flaw in a gen that gave them powers

Evolution is there in Marvel: how do you explain it? In MU everything is possible ... true...so what if it was evolution?
or aliens or radiations or ... a timetravelling maniac...

You have two sides here :
Evolution and new race or Professor X and Magneto
What do you pick?

[Powerhouse]

Adressing a few points:

1. Some people consider the beginning of the Bronze Age marked by a few events. One, in Marvel, is the Hulk issue where Wolverine appears (or perhaps, he is the percursor of Marvel's Bronze age). Wolverine's appearance is importance for what he will later be included in: the advent of the anti-hero in Marvel comics/ the hero who is the loose cannon and will kill. Also, he becomes the most popular member of the X-men, where Marvel becomes very socially conscious and uses the concept of mutant bigotry to explore other bigotry.

2. For DC, some consider it to start with Green Arrow/Green Lantern's attempts to be socially revelvent.

3. I would disagree that mutants are those whose parents were exposed to radiation. As the children of the atom, it references that the rise in background radiation had lead to increased mutations but most mutants do NOT have parents who were exposed to unusually high levels of radiation.

4. Origins are an interesting thing in the various ages. In the Golden Ages, besides bestowed powers, it was popular to get doused by chemicals. By the Silver Age, radiation was the thing. Around the bronze age, mutants and genetics were the rage with genetics continuing into today.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Stray Cat
Okay... Doom aside...

Children of the Atom... The reference was originally about the *atomic age.* Not about radiation mutations in the parents of the X-Men. Yes there was atomic anxiety during the post-war years. All these monster and horror movies with an atomic theme... Not one of them dealt with the mutated children of someone exposed to radiation. They dealt with the exposed person directly. The worry over the next generation didn't come until later.

Are all the mutants in the Marvel Universe that aren't explained specifically supposed to be defaulted to radiation exposure? If that's what the writers at Marvel are doin, then I'm glad I stopped readin their comics regularly about ten years ago.

BTW Kristopher, your tone with Doom has not been pleasant. Mutations can occur spontaneously - without radiation. I'd venture to say that more evolutionary progress has been made due to spontaneous mutation than radiation exposure.

Cat

Yes, yes. Mutations can be caused by radiation, chemical mutagens, copying errors, etc.

No, not all mutants in the MU are defaulted to readiation exposure. The exact details have varied wildly from writer to writer, as they so often do in comics.

Yes, "Children of the Atom" does arrise from the atomic fears of the cold war, so on and so forth.

From a genetic standpoint, the original mutation pretty much has to occur in their anscestors, whether that's the parent(s), or futher back. Most mutations would only result in a few altered cells over the life of the original victim. However, if the mutation occurs in the reproductive cells, then it can be passed on and will be present in all cells of any descendants who inherit the mutation.

BTW, my tone with Vic has been far more pleasant than my gut reaction to someone who is blatantly mistaken and just keeps talking.

[VictorVonDoom]

Maybe i said something wrong.

But all things aside, also our little word-match (what is a mutant) should we look in more themes in the comics ages then just mutants...I got a headace of it (and this isn't genetic)

please other theme same comic/genre/ages

you can pick from

-villans
-magic
-heroes (not mutants already discussed)
-SF influence in some titles

etc