Suppress Running?

[SableWyvern]

One of the PCs in my group has a Suppress DEX/SPD/Running/Leaping, which was used in our first session recently (against a fellow PC, but let's not get into that ... ;)).

The SFX of the power is that it causes metal armour to seize up, inhibiting the target's ability to move.

The DEX and SPD portions of the Suppess seem quite reasonable, but the Running bit immediately proved far more powerful than I had realised it would be. It only requires 12 points of effect to totally stop an unimproved human in his tracks, and 20 points of effect will nullify a move of 10".

This leads me to wonder if Running, other than that bought as a power, is even meant to be suppressable, or if it should be treated as an inherrent ability. OTOH, both I and the player are quite happy with the general way in which the power functions, and if I was to rule that basic Running is unsuppressable, we'd need to totally rework it.

I'm thinking that the easy fix is to require 4 points of effect for each 1" of Running movement that is Suppressed (I'll probably leave Leaping as is, as Suppress Leaping isn't exactly a high-utitility power). This ensures that they will be noticeably slowed, without guaranteeing to stop most targets dead in their tracks with ease.

I should also mention that, due to the SFX, Running would be completely unaffected by the power if the target has unarmoured legs.

Your opinions sought. :)

[Ockham's Spoon]

I am guessing you bought this Suppress with the +1 Advantage "affects 4 abilities"? If it were me, I would not allow mixing of characteristics with movement powers in a single Suppress, partly because it doesn't seem kosher, and partly because you end up with exactly the situation you describe. I would buy it as something like 6d6 Suppress vs. 2 abilities at once, 4d6 vs. DEX & SPD and 2d6 vs. Running & Leaping. Or maybe two separate Suppresses linked together but with a similar dice ratio. Price-wise it should be close to what you have now, but it won't have the movement vs. characteristics mismatch you have now.

Nice ability by the way, I may have to borrow it for some characters of my own.

__________________________________________________ _____________
"Why follow me to higher ground, lost as you swear I am?" - Ed Roland

[Greywind]

Just goes to show you need at least two modes of movement...

[SteveZilla]

One of the PCs in my group has a Suppress DEX/SPD/Running/Leaping, which was used in our first session recently (against a fellow PC, but let's not get into that ... ;)).

The SFX of the power is that it causes metal armour to seize up, inhibiting the target's ability to move.

The DEX and SPD portions of the Suppress seem quite reasonable, but the Running bit immediately proved far more powerful than I had realized it would be. It only requires 12 points of effect to totally stop an unimproved human in his tracks, and 20 points of effect will nullify a move of 10".

This leads me to wonder if Running, other than that bought as a power, is even meant to be suppressible, or if it should be treated as an inherent ability. OTOH, both I and the player are quite happy with the general way in which the power functions, and if I was to rule that basic Running is unsuppressible, we'd need to totally rework it.

I'm thinking that the easy fix is to require 4 points of effect for each 1" of Running movement that is Suppressed (I'll probably leave Leaping as is, as Suppress Leaping isn't exactly a high-utility power). This ensures that they will be noticeably slowed, without guaranteeing to stop most targets dead in their tracks with ease.

I should also mention that, due to the SFX, Running would be completely unaffected by the power if the target has unarmoured legs.

Your opinions sought. :)

Based upon the stated F/X, it should not affect SPD, and should affect STR (kinda hard to wield a weapon when the armor's arms are seized up). But the character inside the "frozen" armor still gets his full allotment of Phases -- only his ability to move is restricted.

Based upon that reasoning, I would say that it would be better bought as either a TK grab, or an Entangle (doesn't take damage from attacks+1/2). Either way, the character has to "break out" using his STR to force the armor to move (either STR vs TK STR, or STR damage vs the Entangle).

Either way, flavor with Limitations that grant the target mobility and/or use of accessible Foci based upon what is covered with metal.

Sounds like a neat basis for a druid spell! :)

[Sean Waters]

Don't let him near 'supress INT' then.

[SteveZilla]

Don't let him near 'supress INT' then.

14 Drain INT 3d6 + Ranged(+½) - OAF(firearm; -1) - Autofire(3 shots; +1¼)

... gives new meaning to the term dumdum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dum-dum) bullets.

[Thia Halmades]

I would agree that he's affecting "too many things at once," although I do have a Drain Running/Leaping/Swimming/Dex power (Hamstring) that does almost exactly that, "Must do BODY (-1)" is a big part of it, obviously. I should add "Only on anatomically correct targets, -1/4" as well. :p

But generally, it sounds fine to me.

[SableWyvern]

I am guessing you bought this Suppress with the +1 Advantage "affects 4 abilities"? If it were me, I would not allow mixing of characteristics with movement powers in a single Suppress, partly because it doesn't seem kosher, and partly because you end up with exactly the situation you describe. I would buy it as something like 6d6 Suppress vs. 2 abilities at once, 4d6 vs. DEX & SPD and 2d6 vs. Running & Leaping. Or maybe two separate Suppresses linked together but with a similar dice ratio. Price-wise it should be close to what you have now, but it won't have the movement vs. characteristics mismatch you have now.

Yep, it has the multiple suppress advantage. Your solution sounds like a good one; I'll probably go with that.


Nice ability by the way, I may have to borrow it for some characters of my own.

Cheers. :)


Based upon the stated F/X, it should not affect SPD, and should affect STR (kinda hard to wield a weapon when the armor's arms are seized up). But the character inside the "frozen" armor still gets his full allotment of Phases -- only his ability to move is restricted.

You are correct; I'll make that change.


Based upon that reasoning, I would say that it would be better bought as either a TK grab, or an Entangle (doesn't take damage from attacks+1/2). Either way, the character has to "break out" using his STR to force the armor to move (either STR vs TK STR, or STR damage vs the Entangle).

Hmm ... I must entirely have missed the "takes no damage" option for Entangle, otherwise I may have considered it when we were originally designing the power. As things stand, I prefer the Suppress method as it makes it easier to adjust the results based on the SFX (eg, ignore movement penalties for unarmoured legs).


Don't let him near 'supress INT' then.

Actually, now that you mention it, that is something that I think I'll keep an eye out for, and watch very closely in the event that a player decides he wants it.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback. :cool:

[SteveZilla]

Hmm ... I must entirely have missed the "takes no damage" option for Entangle, otherwise I may have considered it when we were originally designing the power. As things stand, I prefer the Suppress method as it makes it easier to adjust the results based on the SFX (eg, ignore movement penalties for unarmoured legs).

It's on page 169 of 5er. Note that even with that Advantage it is still possible to specifically target the Entangle (at -3 OCV). It just makes all regular attacks (if using the +1/2 level) against the character not have to go though the Entangle first. It doesn't affect how the character in the entangle can break out.

[SableWyvern]

Ah, ok. Still fairly inappropriate given the SFX, then.

[Comic]

Frustrating, to have all your points spent on something that isn't movement, and then finding you can't move them into range to affect your opponents.

Considering there are so many easily selected alternatives to Running, I can't say I believe the Suppress is too cheap for what you get. Growth, Stretching, Teleport, all ranged attacks, Tunneling, Flight, Gliding, Swinging, Power Defense.. useful in and of themselves also act to counter the effects of losing Running.

It sounds like there's something else going on here, too? Is the player disruptive, are there complaints from other players, is the one character having disproportionate effect on the campaign?

[SableWyvern]

Frustrating, to have all your points spent on something that isn't movement, and then finding you can't move them into range to affect your opponents.

Considering there are so many easily selected alternatives to Running, I can't say I believe the Suppress is too cheap for what you get. Growth, Stretching, Teleport, all ranged attacks, Tunneling, Flight, Gliding, Swinging, Power Defense.. useful in and of themselves also act to counter the effects of losing Running.

First up, I should point out that my main concern is that the PC will be able to ham-string any and every NPC he comes up against who doesn't have Power Defence or an unusual movement mode. I also note that Okham's Spoon's solution to my problem will give the player some points back for his reduced capability (less dice of effect for half the power, plus Linked limitation), which is a fairer solution than just reducing it's effect, as I originally considered.

It does look like the player in question plans to be using this ability with some frequency, so I'd like to make sure it's kept in check. Even with the reduction I've applied, it remains fairly potent.


It sounds like there's something else going on here, too? Is the player disruptive, are there complaints from other players, is the one character having disproportionate effect on the campaign?

No, not at all. My original post probably made the PC vs PC conflict sound more serious than it really was. The players themselves were quite amicable about the in-game dispute that resulted in the Vice attack being applied, and the characters invloved didn't take the situation to heart either. The Vice was used specficially because it allowed for an abrupt, but completely safe form of conflict resolution.

That conflict is the only time Vice has been used yet (we have played, to date, only one session of HERO, ever). I simply noticed the ease with which the first PC rendered the second fairly helpless (although, being a mentalist, the victim could have escalated, if he'd wanted), and am trying to keep potential imbalances under control.

The player in question has accepted my proposed changes with good grace, and I remain open to the idea of letting him expand the power back to its original form at a later date.

Edit: Actually, after much consideration, I think I might take a less extreme stance and let the power stand as it is -- for the moment. I'll let the player know I intend to keep a close eye on it, however.

[Hyper-Man]

If the sfx is magnetism why not use a TK build instead?

Example:

37 Magnetic Charge: Telekinesis (25 STR), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Sticky (+1/2), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (103 Active Points); Limited Power Only To Stick To Metal (-1), Only Works On Limited Types Of Objects (Ferrous Metal; -1/2), Affects Whole Object (-1/4) - END=9

This works like a giant refrigerator magnet vs. the target. The more metal they have on their person (armor and/or weapons) the more effective it is. If someone trying to help free the victim also has metal on their person they will be affected too.

The Costs END Only To Activate and Uncontrolled just make it a Fire & Forget Grab Attack that works like an Entangle with a slightly different breakout mechanic.

[Outsider]

Frustrating, to have all your points spent on something that isn't movement, and then finding you can't move them into range to affect your opponents.

Considering there are so many easily selected alternatives to Running, I can't say I believe the Suppress is too cheap for what you get. Growth, Stretching, Teleport, all ranged attacks, Tunneling, Flight, Gliding, Swinging, Power Defense.. useful in and of themselves also act to counter the effects of losing Running.

It sounds like there's something else going on here, too? Is the player disruptive, are there complaints from other players, is the one character having disproportionate effect on the campaign?


This depends on the genre. Most 'easily selected alternatives to running' are out of concept for non-wizards in a Fantasy Hero game. Of course, 12-14 points of Drain against a 1/2 to 1 point characteristic will really mess with NCM warriors as well...

[SableWyvern]

If the sfx is magnetism why not use a TK build instead?

Example:

37 Magnetic Charge: Telekinesis (25 STR), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Sticky (+1/2), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (103 Active Points); Limited Power Only To Stick To Metal (-1), Only Works On Limited Types Of Objects (Ferrous Metal; -1/2), Affects Whole Object (-1/4) - END=9

This works like a giant refrigerator magnet vs. the target. The more metal they have on their person (armor and/or weapons) the more effective it is. If someone trying to help free the victim also has metal on their person they will be affected too.

The Costs END Only To Activate and Uncontrolled just make it a Fire & Forget Grab Attack that works like an Entangle with a slightly different breakout mechanic.

That doesn't suit the concept ... but, it is a power that I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with, and -- while it is more expensive than the Suppress in question -- it is also a much more effective way to stop people dead in their tracks. Which leads me to seriously reassess whether or not the original power in question is as problematic as I had first imagined.

I have a feeling my initial reaction was due to the fact that the power surprised me with it's efficacy, rather than it being objectively too powerful. I am now even more willing to let it stand, and see how it goes.

[Hyper-Man]

That doesn't suit the concept ... but, it is a power that I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with, and -- while it is more expensive than the Suppress in question -- it is also a much more effective way to stop people dead in their tracks. Which leads me to seriously reassess whether or not the original power in question is as problematic as I had first imagined.

I have a feeling my initial reaction was due to the fact that the power surprised me with it's efficacy, rather than it being objectively too powerful. I am now even more willing to let it stand, and see how it goes.

Since it appears that this is for a Fantasy Hero game it might be worth noting that if a character's STR is currently being enhanced due to some type of magic (spell, belt, gloves, etc...) they would get to use that vs. a TK type effect but would not vs. a Drain targeting movement which would seem a bit strange considering the stated sfx. What are the real and active point limits in the campaign in question?

[SableWyvern]

The (fairly hard) active point limit is 60.

To be honest, neither the player nor myself really considered the idea that STR would even come into the equation, until this thread. A TK build has some advantages and some disadvantages; the biggest single issue with the magnetic build you used is that it cancels out movement options that don't rely free limbs (eg, wingless flight). It also directly hinders movement, irrespective of leg armour (whereas, based on SFX, the movement drains would not apply to targets without leg armour in the original build).

I think that the player in question would like your magnetic build in principle, but I don't know that you could get a sufficiently high strength on the TK within the active point limits available, such that it would be a preferable power to the one already in use.

[Hyper-Man]

The (fairly hard) active point limit is 60.

To be honest, neither the player nor myself really considered the idea that STR would even come into the equation, until this thread. A TK build has some advantages and some disadvantages; the biggest single issue with the magnetic build you used is that it cancels out movement options that don't rely free limbs (eg, wingless flight). It also directly hinders movement, irrespective of leg armour (whereas, based on SFX, the movement drains would not apply to targets without leg armour in the original build).

I think that the player in question would like your magnetic build in principle, but I don't know that you could get a sufficiently high strength on the TK within the active point limits available, such that it would be a preferable power to the one already in use.

I understand the active point limit issue and I can certainly try to tweak the build.

22 Magnetic Charge 2: Telekinesis (23 STR), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Sticky (+1/2) (60 Active Points); Limited Power Only To Stick To Metal (-1), Only Works On Limited Types Of Objects (Ferrous Metal; -1/2), Affects Whole Object (-1/4) [Notes: Without Uncontrolled and AOE 1 Hex the caster must hit the target's normal DCV and concentrate each phase to continue the effect] - END=5

The TK essentially has the same restrictions on movement as the Drain. If the target isn't wearing armor or standing on a metal platform the TK has no effect on his running or flying. The TK doesn't target a character, it only targets anything made of metal. A subtle but distinct difference. The effects on a character wearing a chainmail shirt are going to be far less than on a character wearing full plate.

[SableWyvern]

[Notes: Without Uncontrolled and AOE 1 Hex the caster must hit the target's normal DCV and concentrate each phase to continue the effect] - END=5

The original has AoE 1" Accurate, which I don't think the player will want to drop. I'm not sure where the concentration comes into it; I assume you mean must continue to expend an attack action.


The TK essentially has the same restrictions on movement as the Drain. If the target isn't wearing armor or standing on a metal platform the TK has no effect on his running or flying. The TK doesn't target a character, it only targets anything made of metal. A subtle but distinct difference. The effects on a character wearing a chainmail shirt are going to be far less than on a character wearing full plate.

I'm not sure exactly how this would work. Would you care to elaborate on how you'd apply the power in those two circumstances (ie, chain shirt vs full plate)?

[Hyper-Man]

The original has AoE 1" Accurate, which I don't think the player will want to drop. I'm not sure where the concentration comes into it; I assume you mean must continue to expend an attack action.



I'm not sure exactly how this would work. Would you care to elaborate on how you'd apply the power in those two circumstances (ie, chain shirt vs full plate)?

1. yes
2. A target wearing a chain shirt would have to win a STR vs STR contest (or STR vs the Def & Body of the armor) to move his arms and upper torso. It might just impose extra END (like encumbering rules). The TK itself doesn't move the shirt anywhere. It just makes all the individual links take the tightest formation possible. The same general idea could be applied to full plate.

It really just depends on whether you want it to be a continuous effect that can be mitigated with effort or a complete effect that can be completely broken with effort.

[SableWyvern]

Cheers. That makes sense, and is a good example of applying a power in a non-conventional fashion to achieve a desired aim -- a skill I really need to develop and refine.

[jtelson]

The issue I see with the TK/entangle build is that they are all or nothing. No one will ever be slowed and they rule out the potentially cool scenes where if I push my strength or my running I can slowly crawl across the room towards the caster - maybe I'll make it before I run out of end/stun and collapse.