PRE Drain vs. PRE Attack

[mudpyr8]

Why would I want to pay 15 pts for a 1d6 PRE Drain at Range instead of buying 3d6 of PRE Attack? It seems that the 3 point reduction the Drain would get pales in comparison to the 9 pt value of the straight attack?

[BobGreenwade]

Well, first, those 15 points in PRE will actually net you a 5d6 PRE Attack (base 10 PRE + 15 PRE for 15 points), which will average 17.5 on the dice, compared to 3.5 on the PRE Drain with Range.

Also, the +15 PRE will also affect your performance with Interaction Skills, and help defend against others' PRE Attacks.

That said, your own PRE Attack (and Interaction Skills) will only affect your interaction with whatever target (or targets) you choose. The PRE Drain will affect your target's interactions with others, including PRE Attacks, defending against others' PRE Attacks (including your own, your friends', and others), Interaction Skills, and so forth. It will also last for a while.

Also, it's actually quite rare, outside certain heroic-level games, to buy only 15 points worth of an Attack Power.

[mudpyr8]

Thanks, I was only looking at the per die cost of the drain (15 pts) and what that amount got you as a PRE attack increase.

Typically fear effects are modeled using PRE Drain. I just don't see the advantage.

The point about reducing the target's PRE which will impact other PRE based skills is important. But, if I'm looking for the "big scare", I'm better off buying PRE for an attack.

If it's fear only, I'd just apply a -1 limitation which would then get me +6d6 for 15 points vs. 2d6 of PRE Drain (fear only). 7 pts of effect vs. 21 is a pretty big difference.

[BobGreenwade]

Actually, if your character is fear-based, I'd put both into a Multipower. (Or, possibly, make the PRE into a 12d6 Succor.) You could also add a fear-based Mind Control and a few other powers for little cost.

[Kristopher]

The difference is that a PRE attack makes the victim afraid of at that moment. A PRE Drain makes the victim afraid of everything for a while.

[RadeFox]

Be a sick bastiche. Make a PRE Drain and link it to a PRE attack in a Compound Power! Lower the poor buggers resistance, add to your might, and then crush his wee little mind into so much gray fright-jello!

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by RadeFox
Be a sick bastiche. Make a PRE Drain and link it to a PRE attack in a Compound Power! Lower the poor buggers resistance, add to your might, and then crush his wee little mind into so much gray fright-jello!

I think that when you have two linked powers, and one of them lowers the target's defenses against the other, the one that lowers the defense always goes off last. IIRC.

[Gary]

Don't forget, if you drop their Pre below 0, they'll have to make a Pre roll using their negative Pre in order to do anything remotely offensive.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Kristopher
I think that when you have two linked powers, and one of them lowers the target's defenses against the other, the one that lowers the defense always goes off last. IIRC.

I think Steve addressed this on the rules board, and noted that, since a PRE attack is a fre action, you could PRE drain, then follow immediately with a PRE attack anyway. No need to link them.

[mudpyr8]

I agree with Hugh. I think that was just clarified.

This 1-2 punch does seem a good way to go, but it is still expensive to use a drain for a "boo" effect.

[mudpyr8]

The other thing that compounds it is that you resist a PRE attack with the greater of your EGO or PRE. So draining PRE really won't do anything to their resistance.

Am I wrong?

[Kristopher]

The usefulness of a PRE drain in this regard depends generally on the average PRE and EGO in the campaign. Most Champs campaigns I've seen feature higher PRE than EGO. On the other hand, a game centered around mystics or mentalists would probably feature higher average EGO. In that sort of campaign, the PRE drain wouldn't be as useful in making later PRE attacks more effective.

[mudpyr8]

I guess my point is, why spend 15 points to drain 1d6 PRE at range when, for purposes of a PRE attack, if PRE is suddenly lower (which in a Heroic game will probably happen) than Ego, I essentially get little to no effect.

It seems Mind Control or pure PRE dice are the way to go, and skip the drain.

[Gary]

Originally posted by mudpyr8
I guess my point is, why spend 15 points to drain 1d6 PRE at range when, for purposes of a PRE attack, if PRE is suddenly lower (which in a Heroic game will probably happen) than Ego, I essentially get little to no effect.

It seems Mind Control or pure PRE dice are the way to go, and skip the drain.

Because if you drain their Pre below 0, which isn't too difficult with many 10-15 Pre characters, then you've basically made them ineffective in combat. Also, Pre drains cumulate. Pre attacks become less effective if you have to make more than one.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Don't use Drain; use Suppress.

1) It's much cheaper

2) It has range built-in

3) Sure, it goes away when you stop paying for it, but that could be fixed with 0 END (+1/2)

Hit them with a Suppress THEN do the PRE Attack. Lots of bang for your buck! :)

[Kristopher]

I'd be very leary of allowing a power built as a Supress vs a Characteristic.

[Dr. Anomaly]

That's entirely up to the GM, of course, though Steve has said that Characteristics (even BODY) can be Suppressed, but can't be Dispelled.

[mudpyr8]

So, a 6d6 Suppress PRE (30 pts), Lingering (1 min) +3/4, would cost 52 apts. Limit it to fear effects only (-1), for a real of 26.

Add a Linked (-1/2), PRE +20 (20 pts), Only While Suppressing (-1/2), Fear only (-1), for a real of 7.

That's pretty reasonable. You could get their PRE down to about 0, on average, easily, and then scare the patooty out of 'em.

The only problem is that they could still use their EGO to resist the PRE attack.

What about:

Suppress EGO instead. This suppress will get the average man down to 0 EGO.

Mind Control could be linked to the suppress, and then the target could be made ascared.

Thoughts?

[Robert Harrison]

Originally posted by mudpyr8
So, a 6d6 Suppress PRE (30 pts),

(cut)

You could get their PRE down to about 0, on average, easily, and then scare the patooty out of 'em.

The only problem is that they could still use their EGO to resist the PRE attack.


I had been struggling with this issue myself...until I read Fantasy HERO. Steve L. deals with it on p. 359, stating that PRE attacks against victims of Drain PRE powers should be applied to PRE and not EGO. I imagine the same could apply to Suppress PRE.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by RadeFox
Be a sick bastiche. Make a PRE Drain and link it to a PRE attack in a Compound Power! Lower the poor buggers resistance, add to your might, and then crush his wee little mind into so much gray fright-jello! The Drain would not resolve first IIRC.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by mudpyr8
Typically fear effects are modeled using PRE Drain. I just don't see the advantage.
If Drain their PRE down to 0 they cant do much in combat, or any situation requiring aggressiveness IIRC.

Also, if you just PRE attack them to do your "fear" effect then at best they are afraid of you, and future attempts are going to drop off in effectiveness. If you PRE drain them, they are more likely to be frightened by EVERYTHING, indicating a generally shaken morale. Additional attempts make them more affraid as Drain stacks. With a Delayed Return rate you can also break their morale effectively up to a practical forever (1 Century FADE is close enough to forever in most campaigns).

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Gary
Because if you drain their Pre below 0, which isn't too difficult with many 10-15 Pre characters, then you've basically made them ineffective in combat. Also, Pre drains cumulate. Pre attacks become less effective if you have to make more than one. Should have read further down -- what Gary said...

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Robert Harrison
I had been struggling with this issue myself...until I read Fantasy HERO. Steve L. deals with it on p. 359, stating that PRE attacks against victims of Drain PRE powers should be applied to PRE and not EGO. I imagine the same could apply to Suppress PRE. Presumably the same would hold true if the targets EGO were drained rather than their PRE? Seems kind of kludgy. Why not just make Fear based PRE drains effect PRE and EGO simultaneously with Expanded Effect? Seems to interact with the rules cleaner than just handwaving it away.

[Caveman]

Well, for one... PRE attacks can affect an area(group of people) at one time whereas mind control cannot without the area affect advantage.




Originally posted by mudpyr8
So, a 6d6 Suppress PRE (30 pts), Lingering (1 min) +3/4, would cost 52 apts. Limit it to fear effects only (-1), for a real of 26.

Add a Linked (-1/2), PRE +20 (20 pts), Only While Suppressing (-1/2), Fear only (-1), for a real of 7.

That's pretty reasonable. You could get their PRE down to about 0, on average, easily, and then scare the patooty out of 'em.

The only problem is that they could still use their EGO to resist the PRE attack.

What about:

Suppress EGO instead. This suppress will get the average man down to 0 EGO.

Mind Control could be linked to the suppress, and then the target could be made ascared.

Thoughts?

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by mudpyr8
Typically fear effects are modeled using PRE Drain. I just don't see the advantage.

Once the target falls under 0 PRE, he has to make PRE rlls (and these are now 9- or worse, remember) to take any offensive action. Get him down to -30, and he pretty much just cowers, I believe.

You need quite a bit of Drain to get that efect, of course, but once he's down there, he stays there for a while. And the Drain doesn't lose efectiveness as the victim becomes familiar with you, nor is it less effective when he has no reason to be frightened (eg. he's backed up by teammates).

And it tends to be really effective on egoists who just rely on their high EGO for defense from PRE attacks (or from anyone who bought PRE "only to defend vs PRE attacks, I suppose, since this isn't a PRE attack).

Whether it's worth the cost is a good question, though.