Partial Multiforms

[Sean Waters]

I was reading 5ER, looking up multiforms, and I noticed the example in the side bar for ‘Vari-Armor’ on page 211. This is a multiform for 8 ‘variations’ on a suit of powered armour, that the wearer can convert the armour to, to suit (pun intended) the situation.

The wording in the example got me thinking, and what I thought was this:


Is this costed right?
Does this mean (and this is the real point) that the armour is multiform, but the wearer doesn’t have to be included? Say it is a 350 point character – with the armour costing 300 points and the multiform+wearer costing the remaining 50. Am I explaining myself properly? Probably not.
What I’m getting at is this: can you build a 350 point character, but and only have a part of the character multiform? The ‘non-multiform’ bit stays the same through the different forms? If so, we may just have discovered a hidden framework.

Now I’m thinking ‘no’, but I am still thinking. What are your thoughts?

[Maur]

I don't see why not. You are building the power into the equipment, just as you would build an RKA into a firearm which the character can use. This also sounds like how you would build Mecha like the Robotech Veritech Fighter or other things of that nature.

[Psylint]

With due respect, gotta disagree Maur,

On the other hand, does it make much difference? Multiform off a 300 base is 60, off 350 is 70. And if you put any limitations on it (and to me multiform begs for limitations, extra time, cost end for example) that 10 pt difference evaporates rather quickly.

If I were to allow the split, then I'd require that none of the multiforms enhance the "base character's" skills, talents or characteristics. But at that point it just becomes, in essence, a multipower of Elemental Controls which are a specific no-no.

Peace

[Thia Halmades]

With respect to your respect, Maur is correct.

If I build a 350 point character, for whatever reason, and I devote 150 points to a Multiform Armor, making the Power Construct itself OAF: Armored Suit, what happens to my other 200 points? Nothing, they aren't included in the construction of the armor.

I wouldn't go so far as to 'agree' or 'disagree' that you've discovered a hidden framework; I don't think there's anything hidden about it. As always, the governing elements are the GM & Common Sense application of the rules. So in my final analysis, assuming I understand the question that was asked, you're "both right."

You can build a multipower with your character points as a focus -- why couldn't you? Yes, it would appear that with the appropriate application of lims, etc., you could treat it as a 'framework' if you really wanted to abuse the holy bejeebers out of it.

[Talon]

Gotta disagree with the disagreement with respect to your respecting of...oh bother. :)

Multiform is based on "forms"; you look at how much a /character/ costs, not "the stuff that you want to have change". It even says that forms don't get to share anything for free. I'd say sharing characteristics and skills would fall under that clause.

In the "Vari-armor" case, I assume that the Multiform includes all of the other character's abilities and stats...they just don't change between forms.

[CrosshairCollie]

I have a vaguely similar concept for a character I'm playing now. I statted the basic human form, then used it as the baseline for all the other forms, adding the powers and et-cetera. Each form is mentally identical to the others, just the powers and physicality differ.

The Vari-Armor character would actually have 9 forms, total, I think ... one basic 'unarmored' form, which pays for the 8-part Multiform.

[ghost-angel]

The whole Character Sheet changes - per normal Multiform rules.

You would need to buy the portions that are universal to each "character" for each character, only changing the parts that shift with the Armor.

No partially Multiformed characters.

[Vondy]

No.

Rule book or not.

No.

Its wonky beyond belief.

No.

[BoneDaddy]

There is, however, nothing to prevent you from buying multiform for a vehicle, or a follower, or an automaton.

This begs a different question, though. Say I buy my intelligent vari-weapon as a follower with multiform instead of a focus based multipower. Can I pick up my follower and hit someone with it?

[Talon]

There is, however, nothing to prevent you from buying multiform for a vehicle, or a follower, or an automaton.

This begs a different question, though. Say I buy my intelligent vari-weapon as a follower with multiform instead of a focus based multipower. Can I pick up my follower and hit someone with it?

I would be unlikely to allow this; if I were to allow it, the follower's attacks would need Usable by Other.

Of course, if you're going down that path, why bother? Just give the follower SPD and OCV equal to your own, and you get double Phases! :)

[ghost-angel]

Because Follower's under GM control for the most part...

"whaddya mean you refuse to fire?"

[Sean Waters]

OK, then we probably are reaching some consensus here that multiform has to apply to the 'whole' character'. That is the way I'd rule it.

Look at it another way though:

If you have a (say) 175 point vari-armour, and a 175 point characteristic + skill character piloting it, then you need to buy the same character for each form which is, to at least one way of thinking, a bit of a waste - you only want the 200 point armour to change, but you pay for the whole thing.

Should you allow some sort of limtiation discount on the multiform to reflect that you are not getting as much from the points as someone who changes the whole 'form'? I mean the build makes SENSE but you would probably be more efficient if you changed your skill set with each form so that you could cover a wider spectrum.

The answer to this one may be 'don't use multiform, klutz', but what are your views?

[BoneDaddy]

What if you built it as a series of mutually exclusive ECs and MPs?

Frex, Captain HVAC has two suites of mutually exclusive powers - fire and ice. He has a fire EC, a fire MP, an ice EC, and an ice MP. How much of a disadvantage is it to have powers Only in Hero ID(fire) or Only in Hero ID(ice)? -1/2? Really? Given the overlap between the powers sets (I can't imagine that only HVAC(ice) has armor, for example) I have a hard time imagining it's that much of a limitation, but it is the only step up from 1/4.

[ghost-angel]

OK, then we probably are reaching some consensus here that multiform has to apply to the 'whole' character'. That is the way I'd rule it.

Look at it another way though:

If you have a (say) 175 point vari-armour, and a 175 point characteristic + skill character piloting it, then you need to buy the same character for each form which is, to at least one way of thinking, a bit of a waste - you only want the 200 point armour to change, but you pay for the whole thing.

Should you allow some sort of limtiation discount on the multiform to reflect that you are not getting as much from the points as someone who changes the whole 'form'? I mean the build makes SENSE but you would probably be more efficient if you changed your skill set with each form so that you could cover a wider spectrum.

The answer to this one may be 'don't use multiform, klutz', but what are your views?

Basically - don't use Multiform. It doesn't do that or work that way. Wrong mechanic for the desired construct.

Put it this way, a Morph Gun, using Multipower you can create a 60 Point gun for 20 points, an additional 10 points gives you 4 "forms" to work with. So now you have four guns for the cost of 30 Points, and each gun is 60 Points worth of effect - if a few have Limitations they can exceed 60 Active Points.

That's so intensely unbalancing the rule book just started screaming at me and calling me foul names.

Multiform, as it says under its description, changes the whole character - you must have a new character sheet for each separate form.

[Talon]

Should you allow some sort of limtiation discount on the multiform to reflect that you are not getting as much from the points as someone who changes the whole 'form'? I mean the build makes SENSE but you would probably be more efficient if you changed your skill set with each form so that you could cover a wider spectrum.

I personally wouldn't allow such a limitation, in part because drawing the line of when to apply it would create as many problems as it solved. For example, when the switch between forms is constrained in some way, having access to certain basic abilities is probably an advantage, not a limitation. Someone shouldn't get a cost break because they want their Force Field to exist in both forms.

[BoneDaddy]

Why not just use the limitations listed for Duplication?

[Sean Waters]

Why not just use the limitations listed for Duplication?

Because they are advantages? :)

You could certainly 'reverse the sign' on the advantage, but that would mean that if 51% of you stayed 'the same' you'd be pulling a -1 limtation - a pretty hefty saving - which seems a little excessive?

[BoneDaddy]

No book in front of me - that's a good reason!
And yeah, I think that's too great a savings.

How does only changing a part of the character in each form disadvantage you exactly?

[Vondy]

The answer to this one may be 'don't use multiform, klutz', but what are your views?

"don't use multiform, klutz"

Or, more politely, "there are better methods."

[Sean Waters]

No book in front of me - that's a good reason!
And yeah, I think that's too great a savings.

How does only changing a part of the character in each form disadvantage you exactly?


Well it doesn't disadvantage you as such, it just does not advantage you as much as changing the whole thing. To take an extreme example, for illustrative purposes only, if you have a 350 point character and 300 points stay the same and only 50 points have several forms, you are paying 350/5=70 points for a 50 point changing thing. If you see what I mean. :nonp:

Mind you, Von D-Man may well have the mood of the room :)