Galactic Champions Books

[Citizen Keen]

Now, I know that technically, the only book you ever need is FREd, everything else is "supplementary". But let's assume some dependency - you need Star HERO for Terran Empire, and you need Terran Empire for Spacer's Toolkit. You need Champions for Champions Universe, and you need Champions Universe for Millenium City.

Under those assumptions, what books will we need for Galactic Champions?

Will it be a genre book like Champions and Star HERO, and then we'll see a Galactic Champions Universe, or will it be a campaign book, like Terran Empire or Champions Universe? And if it is a universe book, will it "require" Champions, Star HERO or both?

Thanks,

-cK

[Steve Long]

Galactic Champions will cover three subjects, broadly speaking:

1. How to run high-powered Champions games.

2. The state of the Champions Universe/Hero Universe as of the year 3000.

3. Villains for the Galactic Champions Universe.

I'll let you judge, based on that, what you think you'll need. It's certainly not going to cover all the "how to design planets and stars" stuff from SH. Nor will it include extensive details on the various species of the setting, etc.; those are covered in TE, The Galactic Federation, and so on.

I think that based on my outline, the bulk of the book (say, half of it) will be #3. But until Darren turns in his final draft, I don't know. ;)

[Citizen Keen]

So, this sounds mostly like a subgenre of Champions, a la Dark Champions. Am I somewhat correct on this?

[Steve Long]

Yes, it definitely falls into the "subgenre book" category, much like Golden Age Champions and Silver Age Champions.

[ChaosDrgn]

Do you foresee a Golden Age Champion's sometime in the near future?

<sorry, not trying to hijack the thread>

[AlHazred]

The web site still lists that as a potential book, without author.

I suppose, with two other editions out there, it's not going to be a priority any time soon.

[Deacon Blues]

Originally posted by Steve Long


3. Villains for the Galactic Champions Universe.
Please say Dr. D ...

Or at least the Slug. Everyone underestimates the Slug!

[megaplayboy]

I suspect that any further support for Galactic Champions will depend on how hot the sales are and how much interest is expressed here on the boards in further product.

I for one want to know if a typical cosmic hero can dismantle a Terran Empire Battleship:D

[Morningstar]

I really look forward to this one.

[djday38]

I am also looking foward to this product. One subject I would like to see addressed fall all of us guys who are running a present day champs campaign is a method of utilising all these cool characters from different eras.

We already have many characters turning up from different time periods in CU products and Digital Hero. We will have a lot of extra characters in Galactic Champions and also down the line Golden Age and Silver Age supplements.

I would like to see a common method of time travel inserted into the universe, something the heroes could use (when I needed them to) without being available all the time or abusive. Although I love Captain Chronos I don't want to use him all the time for these plots.

With their being a hero games meta setting and one overall time line for all products, it seems to me it would open up all the other settings for me to use for some great changes of pace (this week guys you find yourself back in the 20's with the Raven, later that year they jump foward in time to the Terran Empire). This would obviously encourage sales and interest between product lines and time epochs.

Maybe an organisation that protects the time line?

any thoughts?

[Steve Long]

Do you foresee a Golden Age Champion's sometime in the near future?

Depends on how you define "near." Darren's going to write most of GAC, but it's not currently on the schedule. 2005 at the earliest, barring unforeseen changes.


Please say Dr. D ...

We went through this in another thread recently -- no information will as yet be revealed, he said with a maniacal cackle. ;) All I'll reveal is: a few villains will get "carried forward," but most of the GC villains will be new.

[Bazza]

I believe the tread Steve is refering to is this one:

What Champions characters might survive to the Terran Empire? (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4443)

[Steve Long]

I suspect that any further support for Galactic Champions will depend on how hot the sales are and how much interest is expressed here on the boards in further product.

Sure, that's true with just about anything. If GC sold outrageously well, that would make us think about doing some further books about that part of the Champions Universe.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by djday38
I would like to see a common method of time travel inserted into the universe, something the heroes could use (when I needed them to) without being available all the time or abusive. Although I love Captain Chronos I don't want to use him all the time for these plots.

With their being a hero games meta setting and one overall time line for all products, it seems to me it would open up all the other settings for me to use for some great changes of pace (this week guys you find yourself back in the 20's with the Raven, later that year they jump foward in time to the Terran Empire). This would obviously encourage sales and interest between product lines and time epochs.

Maybe an organisation that protects the time line?

any thoughts?

Having one organization policing the time stream limits the potential for characters to meddle - anyone out of his time is likely to attact their attention. While that may be a good thing if you want to restrict PC ability to change history, it can result in a "Not these guys again!" reaction from the players. OTOH you could get a lot of mileage out of player characters being recruited by these temporal guardians to help set history "right" (with potential conflicts between players as to what would actually be the "right" version of history). You could even base a campaign on PCs hopping through history with the "time cops" in hot pursuit.

My own preference has been to provide some plot device like a time machine or magic gateway that the player characters can have access to, but set the principles of time travel such that characters can move through time, and have the ability to affect the past in minor ways, but major changes become more difficult based on the size of the change, and the PCs effectively can't change their immediate past to alter the outcome of bad decisions etc. In that vein I've gotten quite a bit of mileage out of the excellent essay on time travel and other extradimensional jaunts that appears in the 4E Champs adventure compilation Champions Presents. The essay is at the end of the adventure "Menace Out of Time" (appropriately enough) by Dean and Dana Edgell, and covers such topics as "The Law of Temporal Dynamics", "The Three Laws of Historical Momentum", "Psyche Exclusion Principle" and "The Gravity Well Effect". All of these help keep time travel scenarios from being abusive, but the essay also points out that any of them could be circumvented by extraordinary technology or similar means if that would suit the GM's purposes.

The adventures in the book are pretty good, too. ;)

[ChaosDrgn]

I like what they put in the Rip Hunter Maxi-series (DC) at one point. A person can only travel through time a certain way three times. After that it's no good. So if Joe Normal got ahold of Chronos' belt he'd only be able to use it 3 times before he needed to find a new method or device.

And if I recall that includes people piggy-backing, 3 times period. No matter who's sitting behind the controls.

[egyptian]

I just hope that New Gods and Mister Miracle are mentioned in the bibliography :D Nobody understood the cosmic struggle between Good and Evil better than the King.

[megaplayboy]

well, speaking of teams:
LSH
Guardians of the Galaxy
Adam Warlock and The Infinity Watch
Green Lantern Corps
high end versions of the JLA and Avengers
the short-lived "Thor Corps",
and the ad hoc team which took on Tyrant
The New Gods
The Eternals(also illustrated/created by Kirby, IIRC)
The "core 4" Defenders
Shi-ar Imperial Guard

are all examples of high powered superteams. They're not as common as the mid-level teams in the comics, but they're certainly not uncommon.

I think that there exists in the Hero gaming community some antipathy towards high-level campaigns. Usually this boils down into 3 basic complaints/concerns:

1. high level characters are more separated from humanity, and thus a lot of roleplaying interactions are constrained.
2. unless characters are narrowly defined, everyone can do everything, and people tweak the system to remove a great deal of challenge from the game.
3. A smaller range of stories available for high level campaigns--since you're not going to go after street crime, for example.
4. association with powergaming and munchkinism.
Generally I think many of these concerns are unfounded, but I still think a bias definitely exists, at least I have found that in my experience.

I hope that this book will address those concerns, to ease the burden for prospective GMs. I don't want to expect too much from this book, but it looks like it will be the only release to address high-level campaigns, so it's important to me that it say something.:)

[Tim]

You forgot LEGION

the LSH teens aren't really high powered. Most could easily be built on 350 points or less. Probably the only exception to this would be Mon'el, and that eras Shazam. It's been a few years since I read them though so I don't know what the writers ave done to them.

[megaplayboy]

Originally posted by Tim
You forgot LEGION

the LSH teens aren't really high powered. Most could easily be built on 350 points or less. Probably the only exception to this would be Mon'el, and that eras Shazam. It's been a few years since I read them though so I don't know what the writers ave done to them.

Yeah, point taken, but honestly--who wants to play the LAME members of the Legion(except in a light comedy game)?

Matter-Eater Lad?
Duo Damsel?
Dream Girl?
Light Lass?
Bouncing Boy?

Meanwhile, on the same team:

Supergirl
Superboy
Brainiac 5(add up everything he can do and he's well beyond 350)
UltraBoy
Colossal Boy
WildFire
Mon-El
Blok
TimberWolf
Saturn Girl(lately)

I don't characterize any of the high-end teams in the comics by their weakest members. That's disingenuous, IMHO, and simply an attempt to divert the discussion from an honest question:

"Why CAN'T we play a game with characters as powerful and capable as the most powerful and capable heroes in the comics?"

[lemming]

Originally posted by megaplayboy
Yeah, point taken, but honestly--who wants to play the LAME members of the Legion(except in a light comedy game)?

Matter-Eater Lad?

I think Matter Eater Lad was underrated. It seemed like he was always able to take a bite out of anything. I bet Mon-el and Superboy could of had their jugalar's ripped right out. heh.

[assault]

People seem to be forgetting that a significant part of the Legion are people like Phantom Girl, Shadow Lass, Shrinking Violet, Invisible Kid, Dream Girl and so on. Not an attack power between them, but they are serious characters.

Then you get people like Lightning Lad, Lightning Lass, Sun Boy, Star Boy, Polar Boy, Cosmic Boy and Magnetic Kid, who are all essentially normals with crunchy attack powers.

There are even midranking bricks like Ferro Lad and Colossal Bore.

None of this lot are particularly powerful. Sure, you could burn a lot of points building them, but they would largely be wasted. 350 would do nicely, with another 100 points worth of standard equipment (flight rings, etc.) Hmm. So, yes, they would be 450 point characters - tough, but not overwhelming.

Oh, and some of the "silly" characters could be surprisingly nasty too, so just watch out. :)

Alan

[assault]

Oh, and some more space based series:

L.E.G.I.O.N. '89
Omega Men

Plus, for LSH fans, their very first appearance can be found here:
http://superman.ws/tales2/lsh/

The same site has various other science fiction-y Superman stories, include the first appearances of Brainiac and Mon-El, plus the first of the very cool "Nightwing and Flamebird" stories, where Superman and Jimmy Olsen get to play Batman and Robin in Kandor.

Alan

[megaplayboy]

Originally posted by assault
People seem to be forgetting that a significant part of the Legion are people like Phantom Girl, Shadow Lass, Shrinking Violet, Invisible Kid, Dream Girl and so on. Not an attack power between them, but they are serious characters.

Then you get people like Lightning Lad, Lightning Lass, Sun Boy, Star Boy, Polar Boy, Cosmic Boy and Magnetic Kid, who are all essentially normals with crunchy attack powers.

There are even midranking bricks like Ferro Lad and Colossal Bore.

None of this lot are particularly powerful. Sure, you could burn a lot of points building them, but they would largely be wasted. 350 would do nicely, with another 100 points worth of standard equipment (flight rings, etc.) Hmm. So, yes, they would be 450 point characters - tough, but not overwhelming.

Oh, and some of the "silly" characters could be surprisingly nasty too, so just watch out. :)

Alan

My point is that most players in a LSH game would rather not play the low-level members. Ditto for an Avengers or JLA-type set-up.

"LSH? Cool! I wanna play Mon-El?"
"Nope, sorry, can't do that...too powerful."
"Ah, man...how about Timber Wolf? Wildfire? Supergirl? Brainiac?"
"no, no, no, and maybe...just tone down the force field, and don't give him too many skills or make his gadget pool too big."

"man, this sucks."
"Ineffectual Lass is still available!"
"F#$@ off."

[assault]

Originally posted by megaplayboy
My point is that most players in a LSH game would rather not play the low-level members. Ditto for an Avengers or JLA-type set-up.

It depends if they are fans of the titles in question, IMHO. A lot of the high powered characters are as dull as rocks.

Give me Cosmic Boy, any day.

Alan

[megaplayboy]

Originally posted by assault
It depends if they are fans of the titles in question, IMHO. A lot of the high powered characters are as dull as rocks.

Give me Cosmic Boy, any day.

Alan

That's a writer decision and has little to do with the relative power of the characters:)

If Mon-El had as much personality as Cosmic Boy, the lesser-powered characters would be completely overshadowed in the story by the more capable ones.

Ditto for Thor on the Avengers, Supes (to a lesser extent) on the JLA, etc.

[assault]

Originally posted by megaplayboy
That's a writer decision and has little to do with the relative power of the characters:)

No doubt. :)

On the other hand, the "writer's decisions" largely fall into the hands of the players in an RPG.

I said "largely", because of the role of the GM, of course. A bad GM will let the Mon-Els steal the scene. A good one will give the others some space.

On a related topic, the Superman site I posted includes the first appearance of Ultra Boy (Superboy #98). Funnily enough, every Champions player's favourite munchkin didn't have his full set of powers then! He only had his "Penetra-vision" which, and I quote, "can generate heat, see great distances, and look through everything, INCLUDING lead. Superboy's X-Ray vision CAN'T see through lead!" (Emphasis in original).

This is a character that can be generated. He's a normal with enhanced senses and a honkin' big attack. And he's Ultra Boy! One of the heavy hitters of the LSH started as a standard Champions character! All he needs is a few more slots on his multipower, or, for that matter, all he needs is for his biggest power to be turned into an MP, depending on how you initially build him.

I've suggested that most of the LSH could be generated on 350 points plus 100 of hi-tech gear. This is true, but I didn't fully explore the significance of this. If we assume that this gear includes at least some armour, we have a lot of the necessary stuff of a viable Champions character tucked away in the standard gear. This leaves 350 points to buy a "normal" (a very good, superhero grade one) with a fairly limited set of powers. This can result in a very seriously powerful character. Don't mess with Lightning Lad! He probably has something like a 16 dice attack! And the skill levels to allow him to hit... Of course, he doesn't want to get hit, but he probably has enough defences to survive.

I think in the case of a big team like the LSH, it would probably be best for each player to take on two or three characters. That way, each player can play a heavy hitter occasionally, and alternate it with some of the more modest characters, and possibly even one of the weaker ones, with the defensive powers that require them to use their brains to deal with the scenario.

All this would require the GM to put a bit of thought in their scenarios, to ensure that brute force isn't enough to deal with the problem. That way, Mon-El can happily bash the Khund invasion fleet, while Phantom Girl gets to the heart of the problem. Meanwhile, Matter-Eater Lad can eat the Plot Device Machine...

In this situation, I would take: Cosmic Boy, Ultra Boy, and Invisible Kid (Lyle or Jacques, depending on the period, I don't care...).

And yes, this would, indeed be lots of fun with a skillful GM. Of course, an unsubtle one would make it a bash, crash and smash, but there's nothing much that could be done about that.

Alan

ps: yes, I am working on my Superboy #98 version of Ultra Boy as I type...

[Brandi]

Matter-Eater Lad, like Cypher of the New Mutants, struck me as someone whose power is totally unglamourous as far as comic books go, but is still immensely useful. If I understand correctly, can't MEL eat even poisonous or radioactive material without injury to himself? Depending on how much material he could process, cleanup at nuclear plant accidents/chemical labs/etc. could be done with reasonable speed and less risk to others...

[megaplayboy]

well, another issue that's not dealt with is simple experience progression. For example, if you start with a 350 point group, and run once a month, averaging about 30xp per year, in 5 years that group will average 500 points, and in 10, 650.
For a group meeting twice a week, averaging 50-60 xp per year, that group will average 600-650 points after 5 years, and 850-950 points after 10. For a weekly game group, averaging 100 xp per year(40 weekends at 2.5 xp each), the numbers are astronomical. 850 point PCs after 5 years, and 1350+ after 10.

Most of the weaker characters are only weak for the 1st 150 xp or so. Most characters at 600+ points are no longer weak, and unless no one wants a successful campaign lasting longer than a few years, high powered characters are a fact of life which Hero gamers (and Hero Games) cannot afford to ignore.

[assault]

Originally posted by megaplayboy
well, another issue that's not dealt with is simple experience progression. For example, if you start with a 350 point group, and run once a month, averaging about 30xp per year, in 5 years that group will average 500 points, and in 10, 650.

This is true, and I actually have no problem with a book dealing with high powered games. Quite the opposite, in fact. I've just been being a pain on the question of how to build the LSH.

On the other hand, I wonder how many games actually last for 5 or 10 years? That's a long time to keep a group together. It can happen, of course, even though I suspect it's rather rare.

Actually, I would really like to play in a really high-powered game. A bit of cosmic bottom-kicking would be kind of cool. There is a certain appeal in being the biggest and baddest thing around - apart from the idjits the GM throws at you. :(

Alan

[megaplayboy]

I have a hankering to run an "Avenger League Z" game at a con shortly after GC is finally released:D

[Tim]

Originally posted by assault


In this situation, I would take: Cosmic Boy, Ultra Boy, and Invisible Kid (Lyle or Jacques, depending on the period, I don't care...).


I'd take Starboy, Ferro, and Violet. (yes, I'd play a female, the LSH has some of the strongest written women in comics.)

[levi]

Originally posted by Steve Long
Galactic Champions ...Nor will it include extensive details on the various species of the setting, etc.; those are covered in TE, The Galactic Federation, and so on...

Steve,
Can you tell us more about The Galactic Fed book? Will there be species with superhuman stats / abilities to draw on for a Galactic Champions campaign or will super-beings of a different species be akin to human Supers in power level differences?

[megaplayboy]

Originally posted by levi
Steve,
Can you tell us more about The Galactic Fed book? Will there be species with superhuman stats / abilities to draw on for a Galactic Champions campaign or will super-beings of a different species be akin to human Supers in power level differences?

Well, it seems like the Malvans and Varanyi are both essentially superhuman. The Varanyi have some high-level psis among them, and there may be some Malvans near Firewing's level.

[assault]

Originally posted by Tim
the LSH has some of the strongest written women in comics.)

True, although there are also a disproportionate amount of female characters with "passive" defensive powers, e.g. Phantom Girl, Shadow Lass, Shrinking Vi, Triplicate Girl, Dream Girl... Of course, many of these are written as rather strong characters. Even Dream Girl is a serious super-scientist and nasty hand-to-hand combatant. And Shrinking Violet rocks! I'm not going to think too hard about the period when Lightning Lad was dead and Lightning Lass was impersonating him...

Anyway, more generally on this thread. I suspect one of the reasons we haven't made a whole lot of sense is that we are mixing two different ideas.

First, there is the "zooming around the universe" campaign.

Secondly, there is the high powered campaign.

There is no necessary connection between the two. One does not imply the other. A high-powered game can be based on Earth, while a star spanning game can involve characters not much more formidable than normals.

On the other hand, there are plenty of precedents for the two to be connected. In addition, higher powered characters are probably a bit more likely to get involved in interstellar conflicts than their lower powered siblings. Anyone can do it, but usually it's the Superman types that do it fairly regularly. Or the Fantastic Four types... but the FF are fairly tough in their own right. Of course, that doesn't help them when Galactus comes to town. :)

Hmm, has anybody done up stats for Darkseid?

Alan

[Azimer the Mad]

Originally posted by assault
Hmm, has anybody done up stats for Darkseid?

Alan

Well, the Omega Effect is done as the "Nega Beam" in the Until Superpowers Database (and is built on more points than Bolivia). After that hurdle, it should be easy statwork.

For Galactic Champions, I'm hoping it will be influenced by one of my favorite genre representations. I loved Post-Zero Hour Legion, but Grant Morrison's D.C. 1 Million had some amazing ideas in it for the 853rd Century Justice League.

[PhantomGM6101]

Depends on how you define "near." Darren's going to write most of GAC, but it's not currently on the schedule. 2005 at the earliest, barring unforeseen changes.



We went through this in another thread recently -- no information will as yet be revealed, he said with a maniacal cackle. ;) All I'll reveal is: a few villains will get "carried forward," but most of the GC villains will be new.

I've set up a "Galactic Champions" Campaign that I called Champions Beyond but it fell by the wayside due to too little players and not much info for the future [in 4th ed],so i put it on Hiatus until i can get a copy of the GC sourcebook. I'd like to know: is the sourcebook compatible with 4th ed champions or is it for 5th ed only?

[Lupus]

Well, it seems like the Malvans and Varanyi are both essentially superhuman. The Varanyi have some high-level psis among them, and there may be some Malvans near Firewing's level.
Really? I got the impression that Firewing was an aberration. He was 350 points when he was in the arena, but found a way to power himself up... of course, I dunno if he's a Malvan or not. I've lent my books out, so I can't check just now.

[Metaphysician]

Yeah, most Malvans only have extremely long lifespan and mild psionic resistance, plus whatever they might give themselves via their tech.

Of course, since they have ATRI 14 tech, any Malvan who actually wanted to could probably gain the equivalent of superpowers. . .

[Lord Liaden]

You could say Firewing is an "aberration" - he went through a legendary Malvan ritual to gain his powers, a profound and quite literal "trial by fire." He did have exceptional physical abilities and minor fire powers before then, though. The implication of the entries on Firewing and other Malvan gladiators in Conquerors, Killers and Crooks is that during the era of superhumans in the galaxy, Malvans can gain superpowers almost with the frequency of humans. A couple of other superhuman Malvan gladiators are mentioned: Frostbite, a mutant with ice powers, and Terala Shain, with exceptional strength and skill and "blindingly fast."

The best of the Malvan gladiators are supposedly comparable to Standard Superheroes; Firewing is far more powerful than any of them.

[Lord Liaden]

I've set up a "Galactic Champions" Campaign that I called Champions Beyond but it fell by the wayside due to too little players and not much info for the future [in 4th ed],so i put it on Hiatus until i can get a copy of the GC sourcebook. I'd like to know: is the sourcebook compatible with 4th ed champions or is it for 5th ed only?

It's compatible with 4th Ed. to the degree that all 5th products are, i.e. 80-90%, with most of the differences being fairly easy to figure out. If you'd like to know what the differences between the editions are, I'd recommend looking here (http://theemerged.blogspot.com/HERO425.htm).

[Metaphysician]

You could say Firewing is an "aberration" - he went through a legendary Malvan ritual to gain his powers, a profound and quite literal "trial by fire." He did have exceptional physical abilities and minor fire powers before then, though. The implication of the entries on Firewing and other Malvan gladiators in Conquerors, Killers and Crooks is that during the era of superhumans in the galaxy, Malvans can gain superpowers almost with the frequency of humans. A couple of other superhuman Malvan gladiators are mentioned: Frostbite, a mutant with ice powers, and Terala Shain, with exceptional strength and skill and "blindingly fast."

The best of the Malvan gladiators are supposedly comparable to Standard Superheroes; Firewing is far more powerful than any of them.

True, Malvans do have superhumans. Its just they aren't any more inherent to their malvan nature than superhumans are to human nature.