It sneaks up on you?

[Psylint]

I'm trying to model a mind control or mental illusion effect that "sneaks up on you." The device is a slower acting hallucinogen. So I'm thinking that cumulative effect, no conscious control, continuous and uncontrolled are all called for, but how do you model the sneakiness?

I'm fully prepared to accept that "it can't be done" because it'd be over powered, but any thoughts?

Thanks

[Tech]

I'm trying to model a mind control or mental illusion effect that "sneaks up on you." The device is a slower acting hallucinogen. So I'm thinking that cumulative effect, no conscious control, continuous and uncontrolled are all called for, but how do you model the sneakiness?

I'm fully prepared to accept that "it can't be done" because it'd be over powered, but any thoughts?

Thanks

Simple: Invisible Power Effect.

At least, that's my take.

[ghost-angel]

Invisible Power Effects.

[Fitz]

It would need to have "Invisible Effects" so that the victim doesn't notice, and a good cooperative player to play the effects (once they were revealed) without the GM having to steamroller all over the place.

As far as I remember, the victim still gets their breakout attempts to shrug off the effect automatically, even if they don't know what's going on, so it wouldn't be hideously overpowered compared to a normal mind control.

[ghost-angel]

It would need to have "Invisible Effects" so that the victim doesn't notice, and a good cooperative player to play the effects (once they were revealed) without the GM having to steamroller all over the place.

As far as I remember, the victim still gets their breakout attempts to shrug off the effect automatically, even if they don't know what's going on, so it wouldn't be hideously overpowered compared to a normal mind control.

Once it affects the victim the victim is aware that something is happening.

IPE will, however, let the Power build unnoticed (sneak up on them).

[Psylint]

Wow.

I guess that makes some sense, after all you would sort of get the same effect by just a really large DC attack of the same sort.

Many thanks.

((Rep as soon as I can)

[PhilFleischmann]

You could also use the +20 "Target Won't Notice Power" level of effect. It would just take longer to cumulately build up to the effect you want.

[ghost-angel]

You could also use the +20 "Target Won't Notice Power" level of effect. It would just take longer to cumulately build up to the effect you want.

That helps if the Attacker doesn't want the Target to know they are under the effects of Mental Control.

If you're trying to build a true Stealth Power that someone with Mental Awareness won't see going on you'll need IPE. Which is what I assumed was wanted.

[Psylint]

Both are good ideas, I guess I just misunderstood how cumulative and target awareness of being attacked worked. I had thought that a target of a cumulative mental power became aware of the attack when first hit with it, even if the mandatory effect hadn't been reached. Apparently that was just a misread on my part.

Thanks again.

[Sean Waters]

IPE means that the power cannot be seen, so even if the target or his companions have mental awareness, they will not 'see' the power, but the target will, even if the power has the very highest level of IPE, still know that he is being attacked.

To avoid the target knowing that he is being attacked you need the +20 point level of effect to accomplish that.

Cumulative mental powers allow you to build that up without the target realising - it just takes longer, and, obviously, requires that you have a very hight maximum level of effect.

The answer to your question is therefore 'both IPE and +20 level of effect' - if the target has mental awareness, even if the target has not realised they are the target of a cumulative mental atatck, the power will be 'visible' to him or her (or to a companion with MA, who could then point out the attack).

I am astonishingly wary of cumulative mental powers because:

1. They are rarely THAT effective in combat - they take too long
2. They can be utterly devastating out of combat because they are an almost dead cert

This can be unbalancing - a captured enemy can often not resist your mental powers at all.

[Psylint]

Good points Sean,

On the other hand, it's often hard to get Ego +30 results without either tons of dice or cumulative effect.

So even to get a Mind Control effect to get a target to believe a statement that does not contradict reality under direct observation and believe it "natural" the Mind Controller has to generally come up with around 12 dice of effect assuming the target is Ego 10 and has no mental defense (Ego of 10, +10 for effect, +20 for "remembers as natural" =40, average roll on 12d6 = 42). And that assumes that the target also continues to fail his/her breakout roll, which in the average case would start at 11-, move to 12- in a turn, 13- in 5 turns etc. So even assuming you hit and make an average to above average effect roll, the attack is still likely to come to nothing 62.5% of the time (as the target gets to make a breakout roll before suffering the mental effect)? Seems unfair to me, frankly, even Roll with a Punch only halves the incoming effect and takes up your next attack action to boot.

Unfortunately, for balance purposes, mental powers are all or none. Either the effect is made or nothing happens except your target gets tipped off. Is the possibility of controlling another super powered character more powerful than 12d6 of energy blast? Often not, because that possibility is extremely remote, generally involves the Mind Controller rolling near max effect possible and the target rolling abysmally poorly on the breakout rolls.

I'm not sure if cumulative mental powers are that ineffective. Granted that it often takes 2 and more often 3 hits to get the effect, but with "Speed of Thought" that's a lot more doable (essentially a character doubles their speed with half of it as "only for mental actions"). In that way mental powers are at times slightly more effective than NNDs (assuming both are used at the "damage cap" for the campaign).

The real killer is Mind Scan. I'll just sit here in my Fortress of Invulnerability, find your pathetic psyche and blast away at it from orbit or deepest, darkest Nowhere, eventually I gotta roll all 6's right?

[PhilFleischmann]

That helps if the Attacker doesn't want the Target to know they are under the effects of Mental Control.

If you're trying to build a true Stealth Power that someone with Mental Awareness won't see going on you'll need IPE. Which is what I assumed was wanted.
True. My assumption was that it's primarily the target that you want the power to "sneak up on" and most targets won't have Mental Awareness. As a house rule, I have allowed "Invisible to Targets without Mental Awareness" for +1/4. That's how mental powers usually seem to work in most source material.

And yes, you need to be careful with Cumulative Mental Powers. You might consider only allowing the part over the target's EGO to accumulate. So for example, if the target has a 10 EGO and the effect dice for three consecutive, cumulative attacks are 15, 18, and 21, you will have achieved (15-10) + (18-10) + (21-10) = 5+8+11 = EGO+24 of effect. The subject should also get their full Mental Defense against *each* attack. And don't forget the automatic breakout rolls.