Is Leaping too Cheap?

[Just Joe]

Forgive me if this has come up 100 times before. I tried a search, but as usual, I failed to find a pertinent thread.

Leaping seems awfully cheap to me for superheroic and similar power-level games. This is especially true for stronger characters, but let's take a 10 STR character, just for the sake of argument. For 18 points, you can buy +13" of leaping and the "accurate" adder, for 15" accurate leaping. Or you can buy +9" of running for 15" of running. This seems about right to me. The running allows you to turn corners and such, the leaping allows you to punch a flying opponent, get you on top of a 3 story building, etc. Roughly evens out. But for another 18 points, you can have 24" of running or 33" of leaping. Of course the 24" running has some advantages, but isn't the 33" leaping better overall?

[Psylint]

Interiors.

Leaping is of very limited value in places with low ceilings. Leaping is ballistic, i.e. you can only go from point a to b point directly, whereas running, flight and swimming all allow a character to weave through obstacles.

The other issue is, what would you do? Make each inch 1.5 pts? Leaping isn't as useful as flight, as flight is unbounded in the altitude it can attain, can hover, etc.

As to which is better overall, you have to look at the circumstances, it's hard to creep with leaping, it's essentially worthless inside buildings. So I'm okay with it.

Your mileage may differ.

Peace

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

With leaping, you're screwed 0.01 seconds after you take off. If you cannot see your target hex, even if you have 'accurate', you still don't know what's in that hex. Which means that after you take off, if anyone can get in your way, and wants to get in your way, they will get in your way. It's all fun and games. With Running you can dodge; with Flight, you can dodge. Even with Swimming, you can dodge. You can't dodge with Swinging or with Superleap; when you take off, you're committed. And if the GM has people smart enough to hold their actions, I would allow you your movement DCV, or maybe 1/2 your DCV.

Because, you see, you can't Dodge. And that's why it's cheaper.

[Comic]

One way to judge is to look at how often it's used.

Bargains are snatched up by low-rent players, after all.

And.. I don't see a lot of leapers, especially, and especially not in theme/concept breaking ways.

No leaping mentalists, for example, ever seem to come up.

[Hyper-Man]

I look at Leaping as the flip side of Gliding. When added together they equal Flight.

Since it takes x2 to x4 Y" in any movement power to actually gain y" of altitude it's not that big a deal to allow 30+" of Leaping.

[BoneDaddy]

Leaping & Physics: I'll wait for The Ultimate Leaper to go to publication before speculating too heavily. I'm a big fan of leaping under certain circumstances, and I'd be interested to figure out the ceiling height necessary to make a combat leap (all of which have the same height for any given gravity, thanks to our good friend physics, specifically acceleration and gravity).

The question (as I see it, and remember, this is a game and not a physics simulator) is how long a non-combat leap takes. Is it 12/(2SPD) seconds for a non-combat move? This seems more likely than half a second, but I guess that's possible, too. Either one leads to irrational results.

I'll take half a second, first, since it's easier. That's about one lousy foot (two feet, really, but one of them is up, and one of them is back down. That also means that the Amazing Po-Go Boy, with 40" of leaping, leaps 20" in a half-move at an astonishing 288 KPH.

The option two produces startlingly irregular results. The Amazing Pogoslug, SPD 2, has 40" of leaping. It takes her three seconds to to make that half move. She launches herself 36 feet (5.5") into the air with each leap. The previously mention Po-Go Boy, SPD 6, makes his half move in a second, launching himself a mere 4 feet into the air. These are weird results because even Werner Heisenberg couldn't figure out how anybody ever hits anybody in combat using these calculations.

Me, I use option 3, and I disregard gravity, acceleration, and physics in favor of handwaivity and fun. Noncombat, half-move leaping can be made indoors under most circumstances, as far as I care. Longer leaps after that take more time.

As for the price points, Psylint pretty much covered it, but I will add this - non-combat leaping is slow. Really slow. I won't even get into the physics argument.

[Talon]

It bugs me that the active cost of Leaping is so low, but I think the overall cost is about right.

[ghost-angel]

Leaping can't turn.

You would be AMAZED how useful turning is.

[Vondy]

I think, in terms of practical use, its priced correctly in relation to flight. It has significantly less versatility.

[Bloodstone]

Leapers can change direction with the Bouncing rules, appropriate surfaces permitting of course.

I dislike that Movement Powers add to velocity based maneuvers at the same rate regardless of the active point costs. It's one of those situations where the number of dice of effect does not relate to the cost. Of course, the opportunities to use those forms of movement for attack should be less frequent, but sometimes it just doesn't play out that way.

[Sean Waters]

Leaping adds to strength based base leaping, which for a very strong character makes it very cheap and quite effective, but slow if you don't have lots of long straights.

For terrifyingly effective try this:

14" of gliding + 3" of flight (linked: gliding)

That looks like 18 points to me and gets you a 17" move, a very effective movement speed, but I'd probably spring the extra point to get to 18", for a power that is as good as flight in 90% of situations, costs 2 END (as opposed to 4 for 18" of flight) and, well, just works really well for not a lot of points.

Swimming, swinging, leaping: personally I'd have preferred to see them as 2 point per 1", with some sort of mandatory limitation at -1: then you could still have cheap, but the END cost and active points would be consistent for all movement powers.

[casualplayer]

Leaping would be costed fine if STR didn't provide figured Leaping and everyone started with just 2".

Accurate tends to hose up the costing some also because you used to have to spend points to leap to your target, ameliorating the cheapness. Eventually the lightbulb would go on above Leapers heads and they would turn bargain basement +OCV Leaping levels into multi-use ones for Move-By, Move-Thru, DCV, etc. Then you get a glimpse of why Spider-Man is such a bad-arse.

[Duke Bushido]

For terrifyingly effective try this:

14" of gliding + 3" of flight (linked: gliding)

That looks like 18 points to me and gets you a 17" move, a very effective movement speed, but I'd probably spring the extra point to get to 18", for a power that is as good as flight in 90% of situations, costs 2 END (as opposed to 4 for 18" of flight) and, well, just works really well for not a lot of points.

I gotta get me a new keyboard.

The "Smite" button is all worn out on this one.... ;)

[Lord Liaden]

Another thing to keep in mind about Leaping vs. other movement forms, is that Noncombat Leaping is significantly inferior in terms of actual speed of travel when compared to Running or Flight. Athough the distance traveled increases, since characters have to spend an extra Phase "in the air" for each Noncombat Multiple, they cover ground at a far slower rate.

[ghost-angel]

Leapers can change direction with the Bouncing rules, appropriate surfaces permitting of course.

I dislike that Movement Powers add to velocity based maneuvers at the same rate regardless of the active point costs. It's one of those situations where the number of dice of effect does not relate to the cost. Of course, the opportunities to use those forms of movement for attack should be less frequent, but sometimes it just doesn't play out that way.

The Bouncing Rules are both optional and sketchy at best too.

So Leaping really could be: Flight; May Only Turn Using Appropriate Surface (-1)

[Trebuchet]

The Bouncing Rules are both optional and sketchy at best too.Where exactly may the optional bouncing rules be found?

[Vondy]

Where exactly may the optional bouncing rules be found?

I'm pretty sure they are referring to "bouncing an attack," which is an optional combat maneuver in the main rule-book. Of course, I could be completely wrong about this...

[Vondy]

Another thing to keep in mind about Leaping vs. other movement forms, is that Noncombat Leaping is significantly inferior in terms of actual speed of travel when compared to Running or Flight. Athough the distance traveled increases, since characters have to spend an extra Phase "in the air" for each Noncombat Multiple, they cover ground at a far slower rate.

And become sniper bait...

[ghost-angel]

Where exactly may the optional bouncing rules be found?

First note: By "sketchy" I meant, not reliable since they require outside forces (appropriate surfaces) to work.

Bouncing Rules:
(Leaping) Ultimate Speedster p38
(Acrobatics) Champions p162; Ultimate Skill p73

The Acrobatics Bouncing is part of the Skill, while the Leaping Bouncing are optional/alternate rules.

[ghost-angel]

I'm pretty sure they are referring to "bouncing an attack," which is an optional combat maneuver in the main rule-book. Of course, I could be completely wrong about this...

You are, there are rules for using Bouncing as a form of movement (either as part of the Acrobatics Skill or Leaping).

[BoneDaddy]

And become sniper bait...
No matter the cost savings, do not purchase your extra inches of leaping with the Incantation "Pull!"

[Trebuchet]

First note: By "sketchy" I meant, not reliable since they require outside forces (appropriate surfaces) to work.

Bouncing Rules:
(Leaping) Ultimate Speedster p38
(Acrobatics) Champions p162; Ultimate Skill p73

The Acrobatics Bouncing is part of the Skill, while the Leaping Bouncing are optional/alternate rules.Your Hero-fu is strong, GA-san!

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

For terrifyingly effective try this:

14" of gliding + 3" of flight (linked: gliding)

That looks like 18 points to me and gets you a 17" move, a very effective movement speed ...

Interesting thought. Explain to me your theory behind this.

I didn't figure you could combine two movement powers into one movement -- unless, of course, you were going to half-move using one, then half-move using the other. So, really, you get to move 7" gliding and 1" of flying -- or 8", going by your two movements. 9", if you tack on that extra 1" of Flight.

NIMGYD.

[Comic]

Interesting thought. Explain to me your theory behind this.

I didn't figure you could combine two movement powers into one movement -- unless, of course, you were going to half-move using one, then half-move using the other. So, really, you get to move 7" gliding and 1" of flying -- or 8", going by your two movements. 9", if you tack on that extra 1" of Flight.

NIMGYD.

I'd require +1/4 'Usable as Gliding' as an advantage on the Flight component, and wouldn't allow the linked disadvantage, since two different movement modes combine according to a lot of different conditions: does the character use a full move or half move, do the modes both have the same noncombat multiplyer, is a combat maneuver being attempted, etc.?

Mixing running and leaping is a great example of how these might relate (comparing standing leap with running leap, and applying the rules for adding ground speed to leaping distance, e.g.)

Also, I really distrust powers bought at less than the old standard power minimums. Paying for less than 5" of Flight just seems wrong, to me. If the concept is 1" of Flight, buy 5" and just don't go any faster than 1". Power minimums seem to help balance characters, in my experience.

So, you'd get 12" Gliding + 5" Flight (+1/4 Usable as Gliding), for 24 APs, which would give you 17" Gliding for 1 END, or 5" Flight, or 12" Gliding for 0 END, or 3" Flight + 6" Gliding as two half moves.

[Sean Waters]

I gotta get me a new keyboard.

The "Smite" button is all worn out on this one.... ;)

It is working fine: I have a shield mouse :)

[Mestopheles]

Maybe this is a silly question, but I've thought about it before and never had a chance to ask you guys (I'm a 6- month lurker who just created a login to ask a question in the Dark Champions thread)

If you have say... 25" of leaping, does that mean if you step off a rooftop and make a controlled fall to the sidewalk you're not subject to falling damage? Assuming you just have strong legs as your SFX I would say yes (and I'm the GM so nyah nyah) but I'm interested to hear if anyone disagrees

[BoneDaddy]

Maybe this is a silly question, but I've thought about it before and never had a chance to ask you guys (I'm a 6- month lurker who just created a login to ask a question in the Dark Champions thread)

If you have say... 25" of leaping, does that mean if you step off a rooftop and make a controlled fall to the sidewalk you're not subject to falling damage? Assuming you just have strong legs as your SFX I would say yes (and I'm the GM so nyah nyah) but I'm interested to hear if anyone disagrees
I would say yes, and further I would allow a basic breakfall or acrobatics roll to turn a fall into a jump.

Back to the physics issue. Gremlin is a superleaper, with 50" inches total of accurate leaping and X16 NCM. He can jump for just shy of a mile, but it takes him 16 seconds (phases) to do so, at a leisurely 225 MPH. Of course, this requires a tremendous parabolic arc, up for eight dizzying seconds, and back down for eight equally dizzying seconds. He achieves a height of 1024 feet (about 170"), with an initial leaping velocity of 284 miles per hour.

So, I would argue that with a NCM, the safe falling distance increases a great deal. Additionally, Gremlin has GREAT shoes.

Addendum: I looked in the Ultimate Brick, to see what it had to say about "realistic" leaping. Due to his small size (4 levels of shrinking) and his great strength (40) he must take care when leaping not to hurl himself into low earth orbit.

[Bloodstone]

Additionally, Gremlin has GREAT shoes.

It's gotta be the shoes.

[rtcvb32]

I would say yes, and further I would allow a basic breakfall or acrobatics roll to turn a fall into a jump.

Back to the physics issue. Gremlin is a superleaper, with 50" inches total of accurate leaping and X16 NCM. He can jump for just shy of a mile, but it takes him 16 seconds (phases) to do so, at a leisurely 225 MPH. Of course, this requires a tremendous parabolic arc, up for eight dizzying seconds, and back down for eight equally dizzying seconds. He achieves a height of 1024 feet (about 170"), with an initial leaping velocity of 284 miles per hour.

So, I would argue that with a NCM, the safe falling distance increases a great deal. Additionally, Gremlin has GREAT shoes.

Definately the shoes, or is it the cereal? Does he do wheeties or something? :P

Back to being serious. Those statistics are interesting and incredible for a single leap/bound, at a great velocity. Using a 'full retreat', he could easily do his first movement to get far enough away, and his second movement to jump (Does he get to take recoveries while he's in his 16seconds of movement??). If he successfully uses his acrobatics to turn a fall into a jump, he could easily slip on the empire state building and make a safe landing. This makes me want to build a multipower, but not do something obsurd.

From link ->

I know this guy who wanted nothing but 250 point of Superleap. I don't think he acutally got to write it up because the GM wouldn't let him.

http://surbrook.devermore.net:16080/herosource/worsthero.html - at the bottom is a link to more resources, and a lot of nice humor stuff :)

Question: I recall in the rulebook you could use the movement to do multiple move-by's; with the exception you could only hit him in the same hex as your first hit, as you were circling him.. which means you could hit him once for every 6 hex's of movement, care to clarify that? Or is it as it sounds?

Era

[Sean Waters]

I would say yes, and further I would allow a basic breakfall or acrobatics roll to turn a fall into a jump.

Back to the physics issue. Gremlin is a superleaper, with 50" inches total of accurate leaping and X16 NCM. He can jump for just shy of a mile, but it takes him 16 seconds (phases) to do so, at a leisurely 225 MPH. Of course, this requires a tremendous parabolic arc, up for eight dizzying seconds, and back down for eight equally dizzying seconds. He achieves a height of 1024 feet (about 170"), with an initial leaping velocity of 284 miles per hour.

So, I would argue that with a NCM, the safe falling distance increases a great deal. Additionally, Gremlin has GREAT shoes.

Interesting to compare with flight, for example.

50" of flight, and 16x NCM. Cool. You can do 300mph x SPD, or thereabouts.

Mind you, you can only accelerate at (COMBAT MOVE)/Phase.

So, Phase 1: you are doing 50" per phase, total 50" covered.

Phase 2 you are doing 100" per phase, 150 " covered

By Phase 5 you will be doing 250" per phase and you will have covered 750".

Mind you, in the same time, the 50" x16 NCM character will have covered 800".

Actually getting there and stopping is even worse.

You can only accelerate for half the journey and then you have to start decelerating. It is going to take the flier 7 phases to actually land on that hex 800" away. The leaper landed 2 phases ago.

Sure flight is faster for really long journeys, but leaping gets you there quicker on local routes.

[Sean Waters]

Interesting thought. Explain to me your theory behind this.

I didn't figure you could combine two movement powers into one movement -- unless, of course, you were going to half-move using one, then half-move using the other. So, really, you get to move 7" gliding and 1" of flying -- or 8", going by your two movements. 9", if you tack on that extra 1" of Flight.

NIMGYD.

I'm not aware of anything that prevents you from combining two movement modes as a sort of compound power, so long as it makes sense. The plan here, of course, would be to have the flight, rather than necessarily being used for forward movement, provide at least 1" of upthrust so you never come to ground with your gliding. You probably shouldn't buy the thing linked, I'll conceed that, but you could certainly buy the flight with a 'only for vertical movement' limitation, and that is probably worth -1.

So: for 18 real points you can have 4" of flight (up only - 1) and 14" of gliding. OK, so now we are down to 14" but the cost to increase velocity goes up at 1 inch per point. For 30 points you are doing 26" horizontally and you are still able to maintain your vertical component indefinitely and even increase it.

[Sean Waters]

The other giggle here is that you can buy your flight in a MP with leaping with a high non combat multiple.

The thing about leaping is that you do all your accelerating and decelerating at the beginning and end, even non combat, so at the end of the first phase you are moving at full noncombat velocity (int he above example (800/5 = 160" per phase).

If you want to be rampantly abusive, and I know none of you chaps would, take this for a spin:

65 Multipower, 65-point reserve
6u 1) Combat flight: Flight 30", Position Shift (65 Active Points) 6
6u 2) Noncombat Flight: Flight 10", x1,024 Noncombat (65 Active Points) 6
6u 3) Acceleration: Leaping +5" (7" forward, 3 1/2" upward) (x8,192 Noncombat) (65 Active Points) 6

Why? Well, the leaping slot allows you to get up to a speed of a little over 7000 mph in a single phase, assuming a SPD of 4. then you switch to slot 2 and you are golden. Similarly, when you want to stop, slot 3 allows a velocity of a little over 7000 mph to be negated in a single phase.

[Bloodstone]

I'm pretty sure Gary asked Steve this one a while back:

Leaping follows the same acceleration rules as running and flight.

Might not makes physics sense, but it's done that way for balance reasons.

EDIT: ok, well he was quoting the FAQ, but it was related... http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22878

And of course, with the lower cost of leaping you can more easily afford to advantages that affect Acceleration.

[archermoo]

I'm pretty sure Gary asked Steve this one a while back:

Leaping follows the same acceleration rules as running and flight.

Might not makes physics sense, but it's done that way for balance reasons.

EDIT: ok, well he was quoting the FAQ, but it was related... http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22878

And of course, with the lower cost of leaping you can more easily afford to advantages that affect Acceleration.

And that is from the 5E rules FAQ, which has been incorporated into the 5ER rules. :)

[Log-Man]

On a slight tangent, I seem to recall seeing a character sheet once where the character had Leaping, Autofire. How does that work exactly?

[archermoo]

On a slight tangent, I seem to recall seeing a character sheet once where the character had Leaping, Autofire. How does that work exactly?

It doesn't, according to 5ER p124. Well, not entirely. Autofire when coupled with Usable As An Attack would potentially let you hit multiple people with it in the same attack.

[Log-Man]

It doesn't, according to 5ER p124. Well, not entirely. Autofire when coupled with Usable As An Attack would potentially let you hit multiple people with it in the same attack.
Ah, ok. So this is how you'd do the classic pinball attack?

[archermoo]

Ah, ok. So this is how you'd do the classic pinball attack?

Not sure what the "classic pinball attack" would be.:o

And on further thought, I don't know that I'd generally even allow Leaping to be purchased as Usable As An Attack. Any more than I'd allow Running or Swimming to be bought UAAA. But I suppose there might be circumstances that I would...

[Bloodstone]

There are a couple of ways to do the Pinball style attacks. The Bouncing rules, Trigger for Leaping to let you take a move after you have attacked, Selective AoE Hand Attack, buying limited Flight, etc.

I think several of those are in the Leaping section of the Ultimate Speedster.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

I'm not aware of anything that prevents you from combining two movement modes as a sort of compound power, so long as it makes sense...

Not disagreeing with you; feel free to use either portion of that compound power all you like. I'm just not going to let you do your Leap-Swimming or your Run-Flying in my game. Pick a movement ability; use it. You're not going to use both at the same time.

Your MPow, on the other hand, I'm perfectly happy with.

As for the pinball attack, I might permit 'Superleap, Autofire' and let them bounce around the room performing a Multiple Move-By (or Move-Through), using the max inches of Superleap being the most distance they can cover; I think I'd allow 1/2 their max to be the most distance they could cover in one straight leap, though.

[Bloodstone]

Actually, I'm about 99% sure there is a rule forbidding the use of multiple forms of movement as a single action, but I don't have 5ER available for a page reference...

Basically, the rule goes that You could Run for a Half Phase and then Leap for a Half phase and thus complete a full phase worth of actions.

But you can't Run 2" and then Jump 1" as a half phase and then precede to make an attack as another half phase action.

[casualplayer]

The other giggle here is that you can buy your flight in a MP with leaping with a high non combat multiple.

The thing about leaping is that you do all your accelerating and decelerating at the beginning and end, even non combat, so at the end of the first phase you are moving at full noncombat velocity (int he above example (800/5 = 160" per phase).

If you want to be rampantly abusive, and I know none of you chaps would, take this for a spin:

65 Multipower, 65-point reserve
6u 1) Combat flight: Flight 30", Position Shift (65 Active Points) 6
6u 2) Noncombat Flight: Flight 10", x1,024 Noncombat (65 Active Points) 6
6u 3) Acceleration: Leaping +5" (7" forward, 3 1/2" upward) (x8,192 Noncombat) (65 Active Points) 6

Why? Well, the leaping slot allows you to get up to a speed of a little over 7000 mph in a single phase, assuming a SPD of 4. then you switch to slot 2 and you are golden. Similarly, when you want to stop, slot 3 allows a velocity of a little over 7000 mph to be negated in a single phase.

Maybe this is why the Greatest American Hero's suit required him to take three steps then leap.

[archermoo]

The other giggle here is that you can buy your flight in a MP with leaping with a high non combat multiple.

The thing about leaping is that you do all your accelerating and decelerating at the beginning and end, even non combat, so at the end of the first phase you are moving at full noncombat velocity (int he above example (800/5 = 160" per phase).

If you want to be rampantly abusive, and I know none of you chaps would, take this for a spin:

65 Multipower, 65-point reserve
6u 1) Combat flight: Flight 30", Position Shift (65 Active Points) 6
6u 2) Noncombat Flight: Flight 10", x1,024 Noncombat (65 Active Points) 6
6u 3) Acceleration: Leaping +5" (7" forward, 3 1/2" upward) (x8,192 Noncombat) (65 Active Points) 6

Why? Well, the leaping slot allows you to get up to a speed of a little over 7000 mph in a single phase, assuming a SPD of 4. then you switch to slot 2 and you are golden. Similarly, when you want to stop, slot 3 allows a velocity of a little over 7000 mph to be negated in a single phase.

As a note, according to 5ER 122 you cannot switch a Movement Power off or switch to another power in a Multipower until you've decellerated to 0" of velocity in that power.

Also of note, while the book doesn't specifically address not being able to combine different movement types, it does specify (5ER p363) that a full move is moving more than 1/2 the points of movement with a particular mode of movement. Which would certainly imply it.

[archermoo]

Not sure what the "classic pinball attack" would be.:o

And on further thought, I don't know that I'd generally even allow Leaping to be purchased as Usable As An Attack. Any more than I'd allow Running or Swimming to be bought UAAA. But I suppose there might be circumstances that I would...

Of note here, 5ER p197 specifically states that UAAA cannot be bought with Leaping. :)

[PhilFleischmann]

If you have say... 25" of leaping, does that mean if you step off a rooftop and make a controlled fall to the sidewalk you're not subject to falling damage? Assuming you just have strong legs as your SFX I would say yes (and I'm the GM so nyah nyah) but I'm interested to hear if anyone disagrees
I've always allowed this. If your legs are strong enough to get you to the top of the building, they can absorb the same force getting to the bottom. But note that it's you *vertical* leaping distance that matters in this case, so 25" of Leaping means you can make a controlled fall of 12.5" (I'd probably be nice and let you round it up to 13").

[Trebuchet]

I've always allowed this. If your legs are strong enough to get you to the top of the building, they can absorb the same force getting to the bottom. But note that it's you *vertical* leaping distance that matters in this case, so 25" of Leaping means you can make a controlled fall of 12.5" (I'd probably be nice and let you round it up to 13").I'd probably require a successful DEX or Acrobatics roll in order to land on your feet as well. If you don't land on your feet, then PD rather than Leaping applies...

[PhilFleischmann]

I'd probably require a successful DEX or Acrobatics roll in order to land on your feet as well. If you don't land on your feet, then PD rather than Leaping applies...
Good point. But assuming no adverse conditions, I wouldn't require a roll. "No Adverse Conditions" means: they get to choose the moment of the fall, there are no conditions to hinder their ability to remain upright, they can see the ground approaching and tell when they're going to land. If there are strong winds or poor visibility or they're being shot at or chased, then I would probably require a roll.

And I might even allow some of the damage for longer falls to be absorbed, but that would require a roll in almost all cases. For example, if your vertical leap is 10" and you're falling 15", you might be able to reduce the damage to only 5d6 (maybe the roll might be at -1 per additional inch, and I might not allow any defense against that - no amount of hard skin will help against the instant deceleration). One might also be able to aim one's leap to land on something soft(er).

[Trebuchet]

Good point. But assuming no adverse conditions, I wouldn't require a roll. "No Adverse Conditions" means: they get to choose the moment of the fall, there are no conditions to hinder their ability to remain upright, they can see the ground approaching and tell when they're going to land. If there are strong winds or poor visibility or they're being shot at or chased, then I would probably require a roll.

And I might even allow some of the damage for longer falls to be absorbed, but that would require a roll in almost all cases. For example, if your vertical leap is 10" and you're falling 15", you might be able to reduce the damage to only 5d6 (maybe the roll might be at -1 per additional inch, and I might not allow any defense against that - no amount of hard skin will help against the instant deceleration). One might also be able to aim one's leap to land on something soft(er).I'd base it on the circumstances. If they dive out of a 5th story window to avoid a bomb or other attack or are knocked out the window, they'll have to roll. If they're simply jumping off intentionally, I probably wouldn't require a roll unless Unluck or some other factor complicates matters.

[Sean Waters]

I'm pretty sure Gary asked Steve this one a while back:

Leaping follows the same acceleration rules as running and flight.

Might not makes physics sense, but it's done that way for balance reasons.

EDIT: ok, well he was quoting the FAQ, but it was related... http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22878

And of course, with the lower cost of leaping you can more easily afford to advantages that affect Acceleration.

Thanks for the reference. Steve notes that it si not entirely logical. What he does not note is that it simply doesn't work: try it. Use the example I gave if you like, or make one of your own - noncombat leaping that used 'normal acceleration rules' would not allow you to leap in as outlined int eh rules for leaping. In the example I gave, even if you could stop instantly (and if I understand the FAQ, you can't - you have to decelerate) then you could not leap (assuming 50" leaping and x16 NCM) 800 m in 5 phases, as the rules say you can.

I appreciate this is a balance thing, but it just does not add up.

Also the rules about having to decelerate to 0" is a balance thing that makes me splinter teeth. If I leap upwards and forwards, that means, even if I'm in the air for a couple of turns, because of NCM, I can't turn on my flight until I land?

That is, frankly, barmy. I can say that because it is not September any more.

[Sean Waters]

Not disagreeing with you; feel free to use either portion of that compound power all you like. I'm just not going to let you do your Leap-Swimming or your Run-Flying in my game. Pick a movement ability; use it. You're not going to use both at the same time.

Your MPow, on the other hand, I'm perfectly happy with.

As for the pinball attack, I might permit 'Superleap, Autofire' and let them bounce around the room performing a Multiple Move-By (or Move-Through), using the max inches of Superleap being the most distance they can cover; I think I'd allow 1/2 their max to be the most distance they could cover in one straight leap, though.


If you can MPA attacks you can do the same thing with movement powers, as far as I am concerned. You might want to limit the total distance to the maximum of one single move, but in the build I was suggesting (well, the second one) you only use the flight to stay up - the gliding provides the horizontal movement. Sure it would be wrong to say that you run 6" forward then fly 20" forward (assuming they are max, not half moves). I can see that, but if you can use them simultaneously for different things, I say go for it.

[archermoo]

Also the rules about having to decelerate to 0" is a balance thing that makes me splinter teeth. If I leap upwards and forwards, that means, even if I'm in the air for a couple of turns, because of NCM, I can't turn on my flight until I land?

That is, frankly, barmy. I can say that because it is not September any more.

No, it means that it works like that if you put the two powers in a multipower that can't run them both at the same time. If you buy them outside of a multipower, or in a multipower that lets you run them both at the same time, you can do it. Part of the limitation of buying things in a multipower.

[Hyper-Man]

No, it means that it works like that if you put the two powers in a multipower that can't run them both at the same time. If you buy them outside of a multipower, or in a multipower that lets you run them both at the same time, you can do it. Part of the limitation of buying things in a multipower.

How did multipower get dragged in to the conversation?

As I currently understand them the rules allow you to mix 2 types of movements in 1 phase but only by making a discrete* half move with each.

*By discrete I mean that the ending velocity is zero at the end of the half move.

This was essentially the same reason that Steve gave for disallowing an idea I had in '04 for combining Flight and Teleport in one move to create a 'Indirect-like' Move Through or Move By.

[archermoo]

How did multipower get dragged in to the conversation?

As I currently understand them the rules allow you to mix 2 types of movements in 1 phase but only by making a discrete* half move with each.

*By discrete I mean that the ending velocity is zero at the end of the half move.

This was essentially the same reason that Steve gave for disallowing an idea I had in '04 for combining Flight and Teleport in one move to create a 'Indirect-like' Move Through or Move By.

Sean was talking about not liking the rule that you had to get down to 0" velocity with a movement power before you could switch the points out of it in a multipower. Specifically giving the example that if he is doing a long NCM leap he can't switch from Leaping to Flight during the leap. The rules only say that you can't switch the points in a Multipower out of a movement slot until you get to 0" velocity. So if the powers aren't in a Multipower you could in theory fire up your flight before you land from a multi-phase leap.

So, to answer your question, Multipower got dragged into the conversation because Sean brought it up. :)

[Sean Waters]

Sean was talking about not liking the rule that you had to get down to 0" velocity with a movement power before you could switch the points out of it in a multipower. Specifically giving the example that if he is doing a long NCM leap he can't switch from Leaping to Flight during the leap. The rules only say that you can't switch the points in a Multipower out of a movement slot until you get to 0" velocity. So if the powers aren't in a Multipower you could in theory fire up your flight before you land from a multi-phase leap.

So, to answer your question, Multipower got dragged into the conversation because Sean brought it up. :)

I don't like it because it makes no sense. The same reason I don't like the rule that leaping acceleration follows the same rules for other movement powers working with NCM. That doesn't make any sense from this (I appreciate) highly esoteric viewpoint: the numbers don't add up.

[archermoo]

I don't like it because it makes no sense. The same reason I don't like the rule that leaping acceleration follows the same rules for other movement powers working with NCM. That doesn't make any sense from this (I appreciate) highly esoteric viewpoint: the numbers don't add up.

To me at least it makes perfect sense. You can't take the points out of a power that you are still using. Until you have landed, you aren't done Leaping, so you can't take the points out of it. If you want to Leap up and then Fly, you have to buy them such that you can use both at the same time.

[Sean Waters]

To me at least it makes perfect sense. You can't take the points out of a power that you are still using. Until you have landed, you aren't done Leaping, so you can't take the points out of it. If you want to Leap up and then Fly, you have to buy them such that you can use both at the same time.

I'm a thousand feet up in the air and I switch away from leaping. I'm no longer controlling my movement, but, as you can't control your leaping movement anyway, so what? I'm in freefall, but my momentum hasn't changed, so I'm not hitting the ground before my next phase anyway.

I switch on my flight, now I'm controlling my movement again.

How can it make sense that I can normally switch slots (at least) once per phase, but in this specific situation, and for reason as that, it seems to me, are related to game balance*, I can't?

Can you explain the 'leaping acceleration is the same as other movement powers' rule EXCEPT as a transparently 'balancing' mechanic?

I mean, we either have to have the courage of our convictions and say that balance matters most, or we have to have the courage of our convictions and say internal consistency matters most.

It seems to me that such decisions are pretty arbitrary, and why not? I mean we arbitrarily treat the point as some sort of yardstick, whereas in reality it is is a different 'length' depending on what we are measuring with it. Perhaps it is time for a fundamental re-examination of the princples underlying Hero, or even an acceptance that there are such principles. Roll on November, eh?

Sorry, we were talking about leaping, yeah?

Simple answer to the question is that a GM should look at the point cost of the power and allow that mnuch utility, sot he character with 30 points in flight shoudl find it twice as useful as the character with 30 points in leaping.

Good luck with that.




*And I would not mind this so much if we were consistent about game balance, but we are not. Witness 'Supress'.

[mmshah]

I was wondering how really long leaps work, I tried to use 5R to figure it out but it didnt seem to make sense, maybe someone can explain it to me. For example if one has Leaping 1" (Megascale +1/4) then you can leap 1 Km. But you have to make an attack roll with applicable range modifers (-14 for 1 Km) assuming you have a OCV of 3 then ure target number is 11 - 14 + 3 -3 = -3, so even if you roll a 3 your off by 6 which means your off by 6 Km, but you can only jump 1 km. Now I know it says the GM can adjust this but it seems like these rules dont work at all even in this minimalist case. Maybe the scatter should be 1 down the Megascale chart as your Leaping so in this case the order of magnitude of scatter would in back down to " (2m) in scale.

Also if using the realistic Leaping rules in Ultimate brick, super-strong characters can leap, Megascale type distances but since they dont use megascale, when they fail their to hit rolls they are off only by a nominal amount compared to the distance Leaped, which seems far too accurate. Am I interpreting these rules incorrectly? Or is there a better way to determine the accuracy of long leaps?

[Sean Waters]

I was wondering how really long leaps work, I tried to use 5R to figure it out but it didnt seem to make sense, maybe someone can explain it to me. For example if one has Leaping 1" (Megascale +1/4) then you can leap 1 Km. But you have to make an attack roll with applicable range modifers (-14 for 1 Km) assuming you have a OCV of 3 then ure target number is 11 - 14 + 3 -3 = -3, so even if you roll a 3 your off by 6 which means your off by 6 Km, but you can only jump 1 km. Now I know it says the GM can adjust this but it seems like these rules dont work at all even in this minimalist case. Maybe the scatter should be 1 down the Megascale chart as your Leaping so in this case the order of magnitude of scatter would in back down to " (2m) in scale.

Also if using the realistic Leaping rules in Ultimate brick, super-strong characters can leap, Megascale type distances but since they dont use megascale, when they fail their to hit rolls they are off only by a nominal amount compared to the distance Leaped, which seems far too accurate. Am I interpreting these rules incorrectly? Or is there a better way to determine the accuracy of long leaps?


1. Try not to use the words 'megascale' and 'realistic' in the same, well, universe. They are mutually exclusive.

2. Well, there isn't a 2., but I figured 1. was such a biggie that it probably wouldn't all fit in.

[PhilFleischmann]

I'd base it on the circumstances. If they dive out of a 5th story window to avoid a bomb or other attack or are knocked out the window, they'll have to roll. If they're simply jumping off intentionally, I probably wouldn't require a roll unless Unluck or some other factor complicates matters.
Yes. And I just thought of another circumstance that would require a roll: if you're carrying someone down with you (presumably someone more delicate than you) or something of significant weight.

[archermoo]

I'm a thousand feet up in the air and I switch away from leaping. I'm no longer controlling my movement, but, as you can't control your leaping movement anyway, so what? I'm in freefall, but my momentum hasn't changed, so I'm not hitting the ground before my next phase anyway.

I switch on my flight, now I'm controlling my movement again.

How can it make sense that I can normally switch slots (at least) once per phase, but in this specific situation, and for reason as that, it seems to me, are related to game balance*, I can't?

Can you explain the 'leaping acceleration is the same as other movement powers' rule EXCEPT as a transparently 'balancing' mechanic?

I mean, we either have to have the courage of our convictions and say that balance matters most, or we have to have the courage of our convictions and say internal consistency matters most.

It seems to me that such decisions are pretty arbitrary, and why not? I mean we arbitrarily treat the point as some sort of yardstick, whereas in reality it is is a different 'length' depending on what we are measuring with it. Perhaps it is time for a fundamental re-examination of the princples underlying Hero, or even an acceptance that there are such principles. Roll on November, eh?

Sorry, we were talking about leaping, yeah?

Simple answer to the question is that a GM should look at the point cost of the power and allow that mnuch utility, sot he character with 30 points in flight shoudl find it twice as useful as the character with 30 points in leaping.

Good luck with that.




*And I would not mind this so much if we were consistent about game balance, but we are not. Witness 'Supress'.

So why are the only options "only balance" and "only internal consistancy"? It seems to me that what is needed is a balance of the two. And that is, to the best of my knowledge, what Steve is going for.

I would also say that if what you are looking for is a power set that allows you to leap 1000' into the air and then start flying, picking a rules construct that specifically disallows that is probably not the way to do it. You can do it, just not within the type of multipower that you outlined earlier.

And certainly the "all movement powers accelerate at the same rate" rule is in there for balance. If you feel the balance that it brings isn't worth the power making less intuitive sense to you, don't use it.

Personally, I'd say the key principle underlying Hero is "Enjoy yourself". :)

[archermoo]

I was wondering how really long leaps work, I tried to use 5R to figure it out but it didnt seem to make sense, maybe someone can explain it to me. For example if one has Leaping 1" (Megascale +1/4) then you can leap 1 Km. But you have to make an attack roll with applicable range modifers (-14 for 1 Km) assuming you have a OCV of 3 then ure target number is 11 - 14 + 3 -3 = -3, so even if you roll a 3 your off by 6 which means your off by 6 Km, but you can only jump 1 km. Now I know it says the GM can adjust this but it seems like these rules dont work at all even in this minimalist case. Maybe the scatter should be 1 down the Megascale chart as your Leaping so in this case the order of magnitude of scatter would in back down to " (2m) in scale.

Also if using the realistic Leaping rules in Ultimate brick, super-strong characters can leap, Megascale type distances but since they dont use megascale, when they fail their to hit rolls they are off only by a nominal amount compared to the distance Leaped, which seems far too accurate. Am I interpreting these rules incorrectly? Or is there a better way to determine the accuracy of long leaps?

Well, it isn't surprising that there might be some oddities when buying 1" of a movement power. Buying more inches of movement evens that kind of thing out. This type of thing is one of the reasons that previous versions of the rules had minimum point expenditures for the powers.

[mmshah]

Sure I can see that, but I used a perfect roll in that example, with an average roll of say 11, then your off by 14 Km. I suppose to make that even remotely reasonable you could be required to buy Leaping 14" with megascale (+1/4), but then trying to jump 14 Km would have a -22 Range Mod, resulting in a 14Km jump with 22Km scatter on average. That still doesnt seem too reasonable to me so lets try again with say 24" with megascale (+1/4), then on a 24 Km jump, we have a -24 Range Mod for an average scatter off 24 Km. At least your jumping in the right direction this time, but I still dont like the results.

And with higher lv of Megascale more " of the base power would be required for it to make any sense. For example with Megascale (+1/2) on 32" Leaping gives -32 Range Mod with a 320 Km jump and 320 Km of scatter.

[archermoo]

Sure I can see that, but I used a perfect roll in that example, with an average roll of say 11, then your off by 14 Km. I suppose to make that even remotely reasonable you could be required to buy Leaping 14" with megascale (+1/4), but then trying to jump 14 Km would have a -22 Range Mod, resulting in a 14Km jump with 22Km scatter on average. That still doesnt seem too reasonable to me so lets try again with say 24" with megascale (+1/4), then on a 24 Km jump, we have a -24 Range Mod for an average scatter off 24 Km. At least your jumping in the right direction this time, but I still dont like the results.

And with higher lv of Megascale more " of the base power would be required for it to make any sense. For example with Megascale (+1/2) on 32" Leaping gives -32 Range Mod with a 320 Km jump and 320 Km of scatter.

Well, part of the point is that if you are using megascale movement, you should really have megascale perception. Otherwise you are likely to not end up very near where you wanted to be.

[mmshah]

Clearly, but when you jump East, you're gunna end up East of where you started, not West, which is 50% likely if you dont have the required minimum levels as in the above examples. Hence my proposition of using scatter on a scale of 1 level down the Megascale chart. Only problem arises at the (+1/4) level, since +0 would be normal scale and too accurate.

[ghost-angel]

Clearly, but when you jump East, you're gunna end up East of where you started, not West, which is 50% likely if you dont have the required minimum levels as in the above examples. Hence my proposition of using scatter on a scale of 1 level down the Megascale chart. Only problem arises at the (+1/4) level, since +0 would be normal scale and too accurate.

Judging by the direction sense of about half the people I know ... Ending up East of where they started when attempting to travel East is not a given.

[Sean Waters]

So why are the only options "only balance" and "only internal consistancy"? It seems to me that what is needed is a balance of the two. And that is, to the best of my knowledge, what Steve is going for.

I would also say that if what you are looking for is a power set that allows you to leap 1000' into the air and then start flying, picking a rules construct that specifically disallows that is probably not the way to do it. You can do it, just not within the type of multipower that you outlined earlier.

And certainly the "all movement powers accelerate at the same rate" rule is in there for balance. If you feel the balance that it brings isn't worth the power making less intuitive sense to you, don't use it.

Personally, I'd say the key principle underlying Hero is "Enjoy yourself". :)

We can certainly agree about the goal of all of this, and I enjoy both playing the game and arguing about...er, discussing it. :whistle:

Personally though one of the things that bugs me is the lack of consistent approach to balance issues. I'm not suggesting for a moment that we have to be all balance or all internal consistency, but because Hero does not 'do' game and design philosophy, it seems to me that there are no guiding principles as to where to pitch the 'balance balance'. This leads to different approaches with different powers - some are 'all' balance, some are 'all' internal consistency and some are in between.

To take an example, I can't see why you need a rule with multipowers that you have to decelerate to 0" before switching on another movement power in the multi. I don't really get how that is a balance issue. Sure it would allow you to use leaping to get around the slow initial acceleration of most other movement powers, but, if that is a 'balance' issue then:

1. We have advantages for movement powers that enable you to get around slow acceleration anyway,

2. You are paying more points for something that, frankly, is not often going to be an issue, and

3. If the thing looks unbalanced, abusive or simply does not make in-game sense, the GM should be the one to say 'no'*.

I think that is probably what bugs me most about overt balancing - it rather assumes an inadequate GM. Sure flag it up as a potential issue, but, and this applies especially with Hero where the game feels like it was constructed rather than just congealed, I think we need to assume that the underlying principles are sound and that the whole thing hangs together pretty well without all the tinkering. You won't do away with the potential for abuse no matter how much you fuss over it, so let us add a short chapter on Abuse Policing and Enjoyment Enforcement (what?) and ditch all the ad hoc interventions speckling the rules.


* You may counter that a GM can always say 'yes' but in practice that is less likely to occur - players are less likely to be asking GMs for rule changes to let them get away with stuff IMO than a GM is to look at a character and ask of a bit of a re-write.

[archermoo]

We can certainly agree about the goal of all of this, and I enjoy both playing the game and arguing about...er, discussing it. :whistle:

Personally though one of the things that bugs me is the lack of consistent approach to balance issues. I'm not suggesting for a moment that we have to be all balance or all internal consistency, but because Hero does not 'do' game and design philosophy, it seems to me that there are no guiding principles as to where to pitch the 'balance balance'. This leads to different approaches with different powers - some are 'all' balance, some are 'all' internal consistency and some are in between.

To take an example, I can't see why you need a rule with multipowers that you have to decelerate to 0" before switching on another movement power in the multi. I don't really get how that is a balance issue. Sure it would allow you to use leaping to get around the slow initial acceleration of most other movement powers, but, if that is a 'balance' issue then:

1. We have advantages for movement powers that enable you to get around slow acceleration anyway,

2. You are paying more points for something that, frankly, is not often going to be an issue, and

3. If the thing looks unbalanced, abusive or simply does not make in-game sense, the GM should be the one to say 'no'*.

I think that is probably what bugs me most about overt balancing - it rather assumes an inadequate GM. Sure flag it up as a potential issue, but, and this applies especially with Hero where the game feels like it was constructed rather than just congealed, I think we need to assume that the underlying principles are sound and that the whole thing hangs together pretty well without all the tinkering. You won't do away with the potential for abuse no matter how much you fuss over it, so let us add a short chapter on Abuse Policing and Enjoyment Enforcement (what?) and ditch all the ad hoc interventions speckling the rules.


* You may counter that a GM can always say 'yes' but in practice that is less likely to occur - players are less likely to be asking GMs for rule changes to let them get away with stuff IMO than a GM is to look at a character and ask of a bit of a re-write.

A couple of notes:

The rule isn't specific to Multipowers. It just generally says that you cannot switch off a Movement Power until you have dropped to 0" velocity, or until the GM says you can. It also notes that this means you cannot switch the points away from the Power in a Multipower, but that doesn't make it specific to Multipowers.

Also, even without this rule you still cannot use Leaping to "get around" the "slow" initial accel for other movement powers. Leaping accelerates at the same rate as any other movement power.

[archermoo]

Clearly, but when you jump East, you're gunna end up East of where you started, not West, which is 50% likely if you dont have the required minimum levels as in the above examples. Hence my proposition of using scatter on a scale of 1 level down the Megascale chart. Only problem arises at the (+1/4) level, since +0 would be normal scale and too accurate.

Again, it is pointing up the problem with moving at Megascale without being able to perceive Megascale. Yes, you will not likely end up where you wanted to. And you might even end up in an entirely different direction. This is what can happen when you are effectively working blind.

[mmshah]

With a movement power like Running I could maybe swallow that, you cant see where your going and make a few wrong turns and wind backwards from your starting point. But with Leaping you cant change direction once you start, if you wind you west of your origin point, you jumped west at the start. I mean if your in NYC face west close your eyes and jump, theres really no chance of you ending up in the Atlantic Ocean. And theres also the point that the scatter can be many times the furthest distance one can jump, I mean these rules seem preposterous at best. No one has indicated that Im somehow interpreting these rules incorrectly and I read one of the questions in the FAQ that pretty much seems to confirm thats this is how they work, and to me it really seems like they need some adjusting. I mean even with Megascale perception, you dont get X-ray vision (unless you buy that) so you still mostly likely cant see where your going (since you have to see when you start the jump on level ground, as you cant change direction mid jump) and wind up with the same problem.

But lets take the second example I mentioned at the start, using the Realistic Leaping rules for super-strength characters in Ultimate Brick, these have the opposite problem jumps are far too accurate. I mean 13,000 miles is the longest Earthly jump one needs to make and is a Range Modifier of -44, so your only off by 44 Hexes or worst case 51 Hexes.

[casualplayer]

Maybe a jetstream blew you off course?

Leaping is a silly mechanic at large distances because in the comics it has always been a silly mechanic and HERO is still corrupted by genre bias. You can't tell me that the Hulk never came down on an elementary school, all half-ton of him, or that Superman leapt a tall building and didn't come down on a pedestrian on the other side. Reality need not apply.

[Just Joe]

Wow, I finally get around to checking replies and there are 5 pages! You guys are great.

Thanks for the replies. I'm going to focus on only a small subset. The comments on NCM and megascale were interesting, for example, but are of little practical use to me because I'm not fond of the underlying rules and have little or no involvement in campaigns in which they might be appropriate anyway. I will also say that while Archermoo's attitude about balance and consistency strikes me as entirely reasonable, nevertheless my sympathy in this case (as in most cases involving Hero System rules) is with Sean Waters.

Regarding physics, leaping and enclosed spaces: given fixed gravity, starting point A, and ending point B, there are (infinitely) many leaping trajectories that could get one from A to B. One could take a higher or lower arcing trajectory, and it is not clear what the minimum height for a given horizontal distance should be. As for the official Hero System rules on the matter, I have not pored over them as carefully as I'm sure I should have, but the -1 limitation "Forward Movement Only" (5ER, p. 197) suggests that one need not leap high to leap far. And, BTW, if one takes this limitation, leaping becomes even less versatile, but also stunningly cheap.

Quick edit: forgot to say that one could price leaping as 3 points per 2". I certainly would not advocate 2 / 1" (unless with a mandatory limitation, as per the excellent suggestion above regarding reconciling END cost for all forms of movement -- in which case I would suggest a limitation of perhaps -1/2 for leaping, rather than -1)

[Sean Waters]

A couple of notes:

The rule isn't specific to Multipowers. It just generally says that you cannot switch off a Movement Power until you have dropped to 0" velocity, or until the GM says you can. It also notes that this means you cannot switch the points away from the Power in a Multipower, but that doesn't make it specific to Multipowers.

Also, even without this rule you still cannot use Leaping to "get around" the "slow" initial accel for other movement powers. Leaping accelerates at the same rate as any other movement power.

My problem is that I just can't see that working.

To me the best of game mechanics should be able to be transparent when necessary: someone who is completely unfamiliar with the system but has a prose description of the character they are playing should be able to describe what they are doing to the GM who should then be able to translate that into system mechanics, and the player should get an expected result, applying common sense, rudimentary science and dramatic stotytelling.

Rules designed to bring balance to the game, like anything designed or expected to bring balance* rarely leave everyone as happy bunnies at the end of the day. Certainly not me**. My problem here is that it offends against the above test.

I think that most people, able to suspend their disbelief sufficiently to play a character who can both leap a long way and fly would expect to be able to fly without having landed first. That's the intuitive answer.

If I fall off a building I can switch on my flight before I hit the ground. If I jump off it I can't switch on my flight until I land. Eh?

Moreover it is just tinkering for the hell of it. It is unnecessary. When is anyone ever going to complain that it is not fair because The Flapping Leaper was able to start, well, flapping, half way through a superleap (as I still persist in calling it)?

I can't even see the balance issue that is being addressed by this rule.

Anyway, I trust my point is made, if not accepted.




*I'm looking at you, Annakin.

** And certainly not the Jedi Council.

[archermoo]

My problem is that I just can't see that working.

To me the best of game mechanics should be able to be transparent when necessary: someone who is completely unfamiliar with the system but has a prose description of the character they are playing should be able to describe what they are doing to the GM who should then be able to translate that into system mechanics, and the player should get an expected result, applying common sense, rudimentary science and dramatic stotytelling.

Rules designed to bring balance to the game, like anything designed or expected to bring balance* rarely leave everyone as happy bunnies at the end of the day. Certainly not me**. My problem here is that it offends against the above test.

I think that most people, able to suspend their disbelief sufficiently to play a character who can both leap a long way and fly would expect to be able to fly without having landed first. That's the intuitive answer.

If I fall off a building I can switch on my flight before I hit the ground. If I jump off it I can't switch on my flight until I land. Eh?

Moreover it is just tinkering for the hell of it. It is unnecessary. When is anyone ever going to complain that it is not fair because The Flapping Leaper was able to start, well, flapping, half way through a superleap (as I still persist in calling it)?

I can't even see the balance issue that is being addressed by this rule.

Anyway, I trust my point is made, if not accepted.




*I'm looking at you, Annakin.

** And certainly not the Jedi Council.

I understand your point, I just don't see that it is valid. You keep presenting Leaping and Flight as if the only way that they can be purchased is together in a multipower that can only run one or the other of them, but not both. That simply isn't the case. You can buy them both in such a way that you can turn them both on at the same time. Which would give you the ability to leap and then fly before you finished leaping. Just because you cannot do it AND save points by putting them in a multipower at the same time doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with the system. It just means that you found one of the ways that multipowers limit you.

And as a note, the description of Leaping specifies that you are not required to land as part of your leap. You can leap to a point in the middle of the air if you want, at which point you'd likely start to fall.

[Sean Waters]

I understand your point, I just don't see that it is valid. You keep presenting Leaping and Flight as if the only way that they can be purchased is together in a multipower that can only run one or the other of them, but not both. That simply isn't the case. You can buy them both in such a way that you can turn them both on at the same time. Which would give you the ability to leap and then fly before you finished leaping. Just because you cannot do it AND save points by putting them in a multipower at the same time doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with the system. It just means that you found one of the ways that multipowers limit you.

And as a note, the description of Leaping specifies that you are not required to land as part of your leap. You can leap to a point in the middle of the air if you want, at which point you'd likely start to fall.


To be fair my original example was in a mutlipower, but I've been ignoring that in my recent posts and if I understand what you posted earlier (I'm not at home and don't have 5ER with me - my bad) it makes no odds whether the powers are in a MP or not. Let us assume they are not then. The same problem occurs. As I understand it you have to reduce your velocity from one movement power to zero before you use another.

Even in a MP I can't see any balance issues with being able to switch slots before you reach your target hex.

On your final point, I accept that - I've been talking about landing and I should have been talking about reaching your target hex, but given that you cannot change your target hex once you start leaping, I think the point still stands.

I know I'm just moaning, and I know I can easily solve all my problems with a sharp knife*, but I do feel that the system is robust enough not to need special rules to balance out the bumps. If the special rules were not there we probably wouldn't realise the bumps were either.

An example of this is leaping acceleration. I never cared that you could get to a point nearby slightly quicker with NCM leaping than NCM flight - for a point further away, the NCM flight wins every time. Leaping has enough of its own problems to justify the cost differential. I'd be happy to give it that one little advantage and not worry about it, so I just do not see the need to apply the acceleration rules for other movement powers to leaping. It makes no sense in game or as a matter of maths. I mean, no one worries about teleport acceleration, do they? NCM TP just takes an extra phase, no matter how far you are going. Balanced? Probably not. Do I care? Not a bit.



* By cutting out the offending rule, obviously :D

[archermoo]

To be fair my original example was in a mutlipower, but I've been ignoring that in my recent posts and if I understand what you posted earlier (I'm not at home and don't have 5ER with me - my bad) it makes no odds whether the powers are in a MP or not. Let us assume they are not then. The same problem occurs. As I understand it you have to reduce your velocity from one movement power to zero before you use another.

Even in a MP I can't see any balance issues with being able to switch slots before you reach your target hex.

On your final point, I accept that - I've been talking about landing and I should have been talking about reaching your target hex, but given that you cannot change your target hex once you start leaping, I think the point still stands.

I know I'm just moaning, and I know I can easily solve all my problems with a sharp knife*, but I do feel that the system is robust enough not to need special rules to balance out the bumps. If the special rules were not there we probably wouldn't realise the bumps were either.

An example of this is leaping acceleration. I never cared that you could get to a point nearby slightly quicker with NCM leaping than NCM flight - for a point further away, the NCM flight wins every time. Leaping has enough of its own problems to justify the cost differential. I'd be happy to give it that one little advantage and not worry about it, so I just do not see the need to apply the acceleration rules for other movement powers to leaping. It makes no sense in game or as a matter of maths. I mean, no one worries about teleport acceleration, do they? NCM TP just takes an extra phase, no matter how far you are going. Balanced? Probably not. Do I care? Not a bit.



* By cutting out the offending rule, obviously :D

But that isn't what 5ER says. It says you cannot turn off a movement power until you've reached 0" velocity from that power. It doesn't say that you cannot turn on another movement power until then.

The purpose of the rule from what I can tell is to stop people from thinking that they can come to an instant stop just by turning off their Flight.

Mostly I was just pointing out that the "loophole" you mentioned (being able to use Leaping to get a quick acceleration for your Flight) isn't a loophole in the system. It is only a loophole if you take a sharp knife to some of the existing rules. Kind of a cut your own loophole thing. :)

And I can think of at least one balance issue with allowing someone with Leaping in a MP to switch the points out mid-leap. One of the ways in which you are limited with a MP is that you can only get the effects of powers with active costs in total equal to or smaller than the MP pool. If you let people switch out of Leaping during the Leap, what's to stop them from switching out of Leaping during a multi-phase Leap, only to switch back in time to land?

The game mechanics in and of themselves do not describe the physics of the game world. We, as Refs and Players, decide how our Power constructs fit into the physics of the game world.

[PhilFleischmann]

Regarding physics, leaping and enclosed spaces: given fixed gravity, starting point A, and ending point B, there are (infinitely) many leaping trajectories that could get one from A to B. One could take a higher or lower arcing trajectory, and it is not clear what the minimum height for a given horizontal distance should be.
Well, from a physics perspective (which may not necessarily be the right approach to take for the sake of the game), the maximum horizontal distance is covered by an initial leap at 45 degrees above the horizontal. Using maximum leaping "force", an angle higher than that will go up higher, but you'll land closer. An angle lower than that won't get you as far because you won't have as much time in the air before gravity pulls you back down to the ground.

Therefore, the height you get to with a maximum distance leap is one-fourth of the distance. That's how high you are at the half-way point - the highest point in the arc. But wait, because there's more! That one-quarter figure is the height off the ground, and doesn't take into consideration the height of the person leaping. So the ceiling would be even higher than that, by the height of the leaper.

So if you're 1" tall and you can leap 20", then you'll need at least a 6" high ceiling to leap that far. But you might be able to get away with a bit less than that by crouching down a bit at the peak of the leap, but that might require some fancier maneuvering. Say 5.5" and a successful Acrobatics roll.

[Sean Waters]

But that isn't what 5ER says. It says you cannot turn off a movement power until you've reached 0" velocity from that power. It doesn't say that you cannot turn on another movement power until then.

The purpose of the rule from what I can tell is to stop people from thinking that they can come to an instant stop just by turning off their Flight.

Mostly I was just pointing out that the "loophole" you mentioned (being able to use Leaping to get a quick acceleration for your Flight) isn't a loophole in the system. It is only a loophole if you take a sharp knife to some of the existing rules. Kind of a cut your own loophole thing. :)

And I can think of at least one balance issue with allowing someone with Leaping in a MP to switch the points out mid-leap. One of the ways in which you are limited with a MP is that you can only get the effects of powers with active costs in total equal to or smaller than the MP pool. If you let people switch out of Leaping during the Leap, what's to stop them from switching out of Leaping during a multi-phase Leap, only to switch back in time to land?

The game mechanics in and of themselves do not describe the physics of the game world. We, as Refs and Players, decide how our Power constructs fit into the physics of the game world.

Nice points (as the actress said to the Bishop, or possibly the other way around).

On the multiphase leap thing, I'm not sure why someone would want to switch out of the leap unless it was to another movement power. I mean, if you switch to an attack you are moving non combat and, if you don't have a movement power in operation, in freefall. Good luck hitting anything. I suppose there is a potential END saving, but I'd want anyone switching off the power and then switching it on again to make a pretty heavily penalised DEX or acrobatics or breakfall roll to land under control. If not they do a non-combat speed movethrough on, well, the planet. That is going to hurt. If I felt the need for balance, that is where I'd be placing the fulcrum.

[Just Joe]

Well, from a physics perspective (which may not necessarily be the right approach to take for the sake of the game), the maximum horizontal distance is covered by an initial leap at 45 degrees above the horizontal. Using maximum leaping "force", an angle higher than that will go up higher, but you'll land closer. An angle lower than that won't get you as far because you won't have as much time in the air before gravity pulls you back down to the ground.

Therefore, the height you get to with a maximum distance leap is one-fourth of the distance. That's how high you are at the half-way point - the highest point in the arc. But wait, because there's more! That one-quarter figure is the height off the ground, and doesn't take into consideration the height of the person leaping. So the ceiling would be even higher than that, by the height of the leaper.

So if you're 1" tall and you can leap 20", then you'll need at least a 6" high ceiling to leap that far. But you might be able to get away with a bit less than that by crouching down a bit at the peak of the leap, but that might require some fancier maneuvering. Say 5.5" and a successful Acrobatics roll.
I think you're assuming that initial velocity is independent of the initial angle. That works for howitzers, but I don't think it works for leaps, especially not running ones. Also, even if everything you write is true for maximum leap, I don't see a way to infer the required height for leaps shorter than a character's maximum.

I still think your approach is helpful as a general guideline, but I would view it more as an upper limit for possible required clearance, rather than a true minimum.

[BoneDaddy]

In the calculations I used for my earlier posts, I calculated the height of the jump by first calculating the duration of the jump, and dividing it by two, and then applying GT^2/2, where G = the force of gravity, 32'/sec, t is the amount of time in seconds, and 2 is 2.

How long is the jump, in seconds? A combat leap (a half move) is half a second, by my reasoning. A 32 second noncombat leap would take you about 3/4 of a mile in the air. "I think I can see my house from here!"

The fun part (?) is that leap might take someone with 2" of leaping and X32 ncm just down the block, and over half a mile up.

[PhilFleischmann]

I think you're assuming that initial velocity is independent of the initial angle. That works for howitzers, but I don't think it works for leaps, especially not running ones.
Yes. I'm simplifying for the sake of easier physics. Though it seems that by some peoples' interpretation running leaps are impossible since you have to slow your running down to 0" before you can switch to a leap.


Also, even if everything you write is true for maximum leap, I don't see a way to infer the required height for leaps shorter than a character's maximum.
True. For a less-than-maximum leap, a character could use his "maximum leaping force" at a less efficient angle, or he could use less leaping force, or a combination of both.

[Lord Liaden]

FWIW I experimented with a new +5 Adder for Leaping, "Rapid." The Rapid Adder offsets the extra Phase for each Noncombat doubling of Leaping distance, i.e. it would allow you to Leap your full Noncombat distance in a single Phase.

I originally charged an additional +5 Rapid to offset every additional Noncombat Multiplier bought for Leaping, so that each NCM would effectively cost +10 points. Because of the initial low cost of the Leaping Power, this made Leaping competitive with Flight or Running up to about the x8 NCM level; but beyond that it became unbalancingly expensive IMO. So, I decided to cap Rapid at +10 to work for any NCM. Once you add in the cost for the Accurate Adder for Leaping, the end result seemed to balance pretty well in price and benefits/drawbacks with other Movement Powers. So, the final description for the Adder would look something like this:

Rapid: This Adder offsets the additional Phases which a character with Leaping would spend "in the air" while Leaping for Noncombat distance. For +5 points the character can move double his base Leaping distance in a single Phase. For +10 points the character can move any Noncombat Multiple of his base Leaping distance in a single Phase, regardless of how many Noncombat Multipliers he purchases for Leaping.

[Zed-F]

You can only accelerate at your combat speed, if you are using NC running or flight. Thus, leaping is often already faster at non-combat movement than running or flying. Basically, leaping already gets the equivalent of the advantage 'Rapid Noncombat Movement' for free.

To counterbalance that, with flight or running, once you get to your top speed, you can stay at that speed as long as you can maintain it, so over very long distances, flight or running will be faster.

OTOH, teleport tends to be still faster, since it takes only 2 phases to do any arbitrarily long teleport.

Of course if we get into megascale, it renders the discussion moot, since Megascale completely obviates the need to worry about doublings or acceleration concerns.