Templates -- Good God Y'all -- What are they good for?

[Michael Hopcroft]

You know, it's weird: I've been using Hero Designer for well on five years now and I still haven't quite figured out the purpose of a template (as opposed to as Prefab) and why I would conceivably want to use one in building a character.

[Vanguard]

A template is something that you use if you can't use a prefab to do it. IE: If you have a starting value for characters in your game, you can create template and send it to them.

Prefabs are just basically there for stuff that you use all the time so that you don't have to keep recreating them. They're mainly used for Heroic level equipment lists and such. They also came in handy when USPD I & II came out. :)

Don't know if that helps or not but I tried.

[Nolgroth]

The single, biggest reason I would use templates is to create an extended characteristic maxima, while still having normal characteristic maxima as a Disadvantage. I just haven't figured out how to do that yet. :(

I really wish the documentation had some sort of example on how to. From what I can tell, I'm doing everything as listed, but it still doesn't count the x2 cost when you get past the new maxima. I'm probably missing something important, but in that specific case, the documentation is somewhat vague.:confused:

[RPMiller]

Character Template = Rules changes (campaign rules, NCM) and quick start character creation (starts with stats set different than beginning and abilities already added)

Prefab = Adding abilities and equipment during or after character creation. (No affect on characteristics, campaign rules, or preferences)

[ghost-angel]

Prefabs work within the game parameters.
Templates change the game parameters.

And under HD3,
Prefabs are good for lists of powers to choose from.
Package Deals are good for applying a bunch of attributes (Characteristics, Skills, etc) to a character.
Templates are for changing the base parameters of the game being played.

[Loxly]

Prefabs work within the game parameters.
Templates change the game parameters.

And under HD3,
Prefabs are good for lists of powers to choose from.
Package Deals are good for applying a bunch of attributes (Characteristics, Skills, etc) to a character.
Templates are for changing the base parameters of the game being played.

Doesn't one of the FH setting start with all PC's with 8's in their Primary Stats, not the "normal" 10's. And you don't get any points back for it.

A Template would work great for that.

[RPMiller]

For that I would recommend checking out Killer Shrikes excellent NCM generator. It can give you a custom character template to do just that with very little work on your part. He even just recently upgraded it to v3.

[Killer Shrike]

The single, biggest reason I would use templates is to create an extended characteristic maxima, while still having normal characteristic maxima as a Disadvantage. I just haven't figured out how to do that yet. :(

I really wish the documentation had some sort of example on how to. From what I can tell, I'm doing everything as listed, but it still doesn't count the x2 cost when you get past the new maxima. I'm probably missing something important, but in that specific case, the documentation is somewhat vague.:confused:

Seriously? I put this utility up years ago to make one for you:

NCM Template Maker (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/RacePackageDeals/NCMExport/NCMExport.asp)

[RPMiller]

See, I knew he would be along shortly. ;)

[Killer Shrike]

You know, it's weird: I've been using Hero Designer for well on five years now and I still haven't quite figured out the purpose of a template (as opposed to as Prefab) and why I would conceivably want to use one in building a character.

Templates is one of the most useful and advanced features of HD. I use them a lot. Of key importance it allows you to do a couple of things that can be very very useful:

* It is the primary means of implementing non-standard rules / abilities / constructs

* You can create character write ups and then save them as a Template. Having done that you can then make new characters from that template. For stepped characters you can do this several times to make different strata -- for instance make a Dwarf Template, then start from there to make a Dwarf Warrior Template, and from there to make a Dwarf Champion Template and so on. You can also do this via Save As of course, but the Template approach has the advantage of effectively "locking" the template so that you don't accidentally mess it up.

[ghost-angel]

Doesn't one of the FH setting start with all PC's with 8's in their Primary Stats, not the "normal" 10's. And you don't get any points back for it.

A Template would work great for that.

Valdorian Age.

[Talon]

Templates are nice, but the way the hierarchy is set up makes them difficult to share, so unless you are doing something simple (like changing NCM), you need to be handy with the XML (or know someone who is).

[Simon]

Templates are nice, but the way the hierarchy is set up makes them difficult to share, so unless you are doing something simple (like changing NCM), you need to be handy with the XML (or know someone who is).
Actually, that's one of the next things that I'm working on ;)

That said, if you have a multiple-inheritance situation (or a deep hierarchy), it helps (a LOT) to use the default template directory found under app prefs.


As for what I'm working on, I currently have the custom template information stored in the character file....for the first level of customization used. This means that if you have:

Custom1 extends builtIn.Heroic.hdt

Everything will be part of the character. However, if you have:

Custom2 extends Custom1

Then only the first level (Custom2) will be stored in the character, the rest will need to be on the system.

So....I'm looking to have all external template information pulled into the character file (in the above example, both Custom1 and Custom2).

Additionally, I'm looking into the possibility of defining your own hierarchy on the fly (e.g. "Add template..." with the most recent template added being at the top of the hierarchy). I need to give this part a little thought still, but I'm hoping it will pan out.

[Nolgroth]

Seriously? I put this utility up years ago to make one for you:

NCM Template Maker (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/RacePackageDeals/NCMExport/NCMExport.asp)I actually wanted to add an additional "class" of NCM. And, with the help of your template I think I figured it out. Either that or I forgot to check the NCM button the first time. Either way, it works and your utility is as good as it gets. :thumbup:

[Killer Shrike]

Actually, that's one of the next things that I'm working on ;)

That said, if you have a multiple-inheritance situation (or a deep hierarchy), it helps (a LOT) to use the default template directory found under app prefs.


As for what I'm working on, I currently have the custom template information stored in the character file....for the first level of customization used. This means that if you have:

Custom1 extends builtIn.Heroic.hdt

Everything will be part of the character. However, if you have:

Custom2 extends Custom1

Then only the first level (Custom2) will be stored in the character, the rest will need to be on the system.

So....I'm looking to have all external template information pulled into the character file (in the above example, both Custom1 and Custom2).

Additionally, I'm looking into the possibility of defining your own hierarchy on the fly (e.g. "Add template..." with the most recent template added being at the top of the hierarchy). I need to give this part a little thought still, but I'm hoping it will pan out.

So...would this allow me to say...have a Dwarf Template and a Basic Warrior Template and combine them on the fly to create a Dwarf Basic Warrior character that inherits the features of both without "forgetting" one or the other original template?

[Simon]

So...would this allow me to say...have a Dwarf Template and a Basic Warrior Template and combine them on the fly to create a Dwarf Basic Warrior character that inherits the features of both without "forgetting" one or the other original template?
That would be pretty much the idea, yes. Depending on the order in which you applied them, you would have either a Basic Warrior Dwarf or a Dwarf Basic Warrior.

The other half of the benefit would be not having to send any of the templates to people in order for them to view the character (all of the information would be in the character file).

At least in theory ;)

[Talon]

That would be pretty much the idea, yes. Depending on the order in which you applied them, you would have either a Basic Warrior Dwarf or a Dwarf Basic Warrior.

The other half of the benefit would be not having to send any of the templates to people in order for them to view the character (all of the information would be in the character file).

At least in theory ;)

This is...amazingly f--ing cool. I cannot wait!

[Killer Shrike]

That would be pretty much the idea, yes. Depending on the order in which you applied them, you would have either a Basic Warrior Dwarf or a Dwarf Basic Warrior.

The other half of the benefit would be not having to send any of the templates to people in order for them to view the character (all of the information would be in the character file).

At least in theory ;)

Most Excellent!

[Scott Baker]

I agree with everyone else that this would be great! One of the very first things I tried with HD involved a hierarchy of templates, with the obvious result that it didn't work very well sending it to other people. This would make a great addition to an already great program.

Scott Baker

[Simon]

The feature is available in the new update (posted today).

I've got things set such that additional templates are added to the bottom of the hierarchy. For example:

If you create a new character based on the Dwarf template and then add in a Warrior template, the Dwarf template's abilities/definitions are at the top of the hierarchy, with the Warrior template's definitions coming into play after (e.g. Dwarf extends="Warrior.hdt"). This would be the equivalent of creating a Warrior Dwarf (he's a dwarf first, and a warrior second).

If you want the opposite, then you would create a new character from the Warrior template and then add in the dwarf template.

Note that if you create a character from one of the built-in templates (frex, Heroic) and then add in an additional template, the built-in template will be treated as if it were a custom template and the additional template will be added "beneath" it in the hierarchy. This is the only case in which the built-in definitions may override the definitions in an extension template.

[RPMiller]

Just to make sure I understand. Using your example, if the Dwarf has a STR of 13 and the Warrior has a STR of 15 the character will have a STR of 15 as the second one overrides the first. Is that correct?

[Simon]

Just to make sure I understand. Using your example, if the Dwarf has a STR of 13 and the Warrior has a STR of 15 the character will have a STR of 15 as the second one overrides the first. Is that correct?
No. The character is based off of the template that is used to create it. All character abilities/presets will come from the first template (only). The additional templates can provide new abilities and definitions.

A more accurate example may be:

Dwarf.hdt defines STR as costing 2 points per level.

Warrior.hdt defines STR as costing 1 point per level.

A character based off of Dwarf.hdt with Warrior.hdt added as an extension will have STR costing 2 points per level.

If Warrior.hdt also defines DEX as costing 2 points per level (instead of the normal 3), then the character will have DEX costed at 2 points per level (assuming that Dwarf.hdt does not also re-define DEX).


Think of the new functionality as a way to dynamically define the "extends" attribute of your template. All character presets, prefabs, and campaign rules are still contained exclusively in the main template. The extension templates define additional abilities (or change/remove abilities).

[Killer Shrike]

Check. My work is still in 60+ a week mode, but this is near the top of my list of things to check out when I get the time. Thanks!

[Nolgroth]

Thanks Simon.

[Scott Baker]

And a slightly belated Thanks from me as well.

Scott

[Enforcer84]

No. The character is based off of the template that is used to create it. All character abilities/presets will come from the first template (only). The additional templates can provide new abilities and definitions.

A more accurate example may be:

Dwarf.hdt defines STR as costing 2 points per level.

Warrior.hdt defines STR as costing 1 point per level.

A character based off of Dwarf.hdt with Warrior.hdt added as an extension will have STR costing 2 points per level.

If Warrior.hdt also defines DEX as costing 2 points per level (instead of the normal 3), then the character will have DEX costed at 2 points per level (assuming that Dwarf.hdt does not also re-define DEX).


Think of the new functionality as a way to dynamically define the "extends" attribute of your template. All character presets, prefabs, and campaign rules are still contained exclusively in the main template. The extension templates define additional abilities (or change/remove abilities).
So if I wanted to do Dwarf is STR 13 and Warrior is STR 15, Dwarf Warrior is STR 18, that's using prefabs not templates, correct?

[Enforcer84]

New question. I'm futzing around with my own template. But I'm using notepad as a text editor, I keep trying to save as an hdt file but saves as a txt file. Anyway of altering this?

[Nolgroth]

New question. I'm futzing around with my own template. But I'm using notepad as a text editor, I keep trying to save as an hdt file but saves as a txt file. Anyway of altering this?Sadly, Windows is a little retarded in this regard. What you can do though, is go into Folder Options (under Tools I think) and where it has Hide Extensions of Known File Types, uncheck the box. Then you can change the extension which is probably filename.hdt.txt.

I'm not 100% sure under which menu the Folder Options item is, as I am using Vista and the interface is somewhat different.

[Simon]

New question. I'm futzing around with my own template. But I'm using notepad as a text editor, I keep trying to save as an hdt file but saves as a txt file. Anyway of altering this?
Set the file type in the save dialog to "All Files"

[Simon]

So if I wanted to do Dwarf is STR 13 and Warrior is STR 15, Dwarf Warrior is STR 18, that's using prefabs not templates, correct?
Templates define the rules by which characters are constructed (how much a level of STR costs, etc.).

Prefabs are pre-constructed abilities. You'll have a hard time using them for things like Characteristics.

Package Deals are sets of attributes and abilities that are applied in bulk to a character of a particular race/profession. What you're after is essentially a Package Deal (or set of Package Deals).

[Starwolf]

New question. I'm futzing around with my own template. But I'm using notepad as a text editor, I keep trying to save as an hdt file but saves as a txt file. Anyway of altering this?

Yes, when you select the Save As option, in the dialog box that opens be sure to select "All Files" in the files of type drop down. Then name the file template.hdt in the file name box, just swapping the word filename for whatever name you choose.

[Enforcer84]

Templates define the rules by which characters are constructed (how much a level of STR costs, etc.).

Prefabs are pre-constructed abilities. You'll have a hard time using them for things like Characteristics.

Package Deals are sets of attributes and abilities that are applied in bulk to a character of a particular race/profession. What you're after is essentially a Package Deal (or set of Package Deals).
I meant Package deals, thanks. I am the dumb when I type sometimes.

[Enforcer84]

Thanks for the .txt fix my fellow HEROes. Now I have another problem. And its probably me, but I'm scratching my head on it.

I created a template (made a character with my rules set, saved as template) and then altered it to try to get my stuff. However, HD balks at using this template it tells me that the "Template" needs to have a </Template> to complete it. The thing is, I never touched that. Its there. I've looked at other templates and I don't see where mine is different. But it is late and I might be operating under the sway of not enough wakey left.

anywho, here is the template I am working on. If it's blindingly obvious I apologize for wasting anyone's time. :)

[Simon]

You opened up the CHARACTERISTICS container in the template almost right -- you didn't take off the closing "/" on the opening tag, which is why HD complains about line 69 (the closing characteristics tag) when parsing the document.

[Enforcer84]

You opened up the CHARACTERISTICS container in the template almost right -- you didn't take off the closing "/" on the opening tag, which is why HD complains about line 69 (the closing characteristics tag) when parsing the document.
Thanks! I'll get that fixed. I'll see what I can do about the Guiness I owe you ;)

[Enforcer84]

Huzzah! I have custom Characteristics!



now I just have to make a few Talents, Perks, language chart...