Is this Munchkinism?

[Diamond Spear]

I have a player that wanted to buy “Invisible to Danger Sense”. The character in question is not a mentalist but rather a character with density changing abilities. I disallowed the poser but my question to Herodom assembled is: Was it a Munchkin power build?

[Talon]

I wouldn't necessarily consider it abusive, but I would also be unlikely to allow a blanket Invisibility to all forms of Danger Sense. Depending on the special effects of the character, I'd figure out what types of Danger Sense would be affected.

For a density based character, I can't think of any types offhand. Ask the player how they imagine it working. If the answer is some form of "I want to be invisible to Danger Sense", you have your answer. :)

[McCoy]

I have a player that wanted to buy “Invisible to Danger Sense”. The character in question is not a mentalist but rather a character with density changing abilities. I disallowed the poser but my question to Herodom assembled is: Was it a Munchkin power build?
Depending on the SX of the Danger Sense, I would allow it.

If it's heightened senses, a desolid character could reasonably be assumed to be quieter that the normal person, and have less scent. Maybe "requires a suscessful stealth roll." If the desolid is bought with the "works against Ego Powers" advantage, it could reasonably be argued that works against telepathy or even some limited precog.

[Diamond Spear]

Depending on the SX of the Danger Sense, I would allow it.

If it's heightened senses, a desolid character could reasonably be assumed to be quieter that the normal person, and have less scent. Maybe "requires a suscessful stealth roll." If the desolid is bought with the "works against Ego Powers" advantage, it could reasonably be argued that works against telepathy or even some limited precog.

Perhaps. The power was not bought "Only while Desolid" though. It was an all the time thing.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I wouldn't necessarily consider it abusive, but I would also be unlikely to allow a blanket Invisibility to all forms of Danger Sense. Depending on the special effects of the character, I'd figure out what types of Danger Sense would be affected.Agreed. Invisibility is bought vs. Sense Groups, and "Danger Sense" is not a Sense Group. OTOH, if a given application of Danger Sense was defined as, say, incredibly heightened smell that allowed them to get "a whiff of danger" or something, I'd allow Invisibility to Smell to make a character "immune" to that Danger Sense.

[Sean Waters]

Hmm. I'm going to assume that this is a superheroic game?

There are a couple of approaches here.

1. If, as the GM, you think this is a munchkin build then it is.
2. Can the player explain why the character is invisible to danger sense? If so then it is not.
3. All powers in the universe I have created are a direct result of the interaction of consciousness and Fantasticon Particles, which means that anything is possible in any combination, and there is no such thing as a munchkin build.

Whilst we can all offer opinions (and it seems somewhat lesser munchkinesse to me*) but the decision must be yours.




* I mentally divide munchkinism into at least two camps. To me, munchkinism is basically metagaming to the detriment of the game.

Greater munchkins, in Hero, try to maximise efficiency and point spends, and create synergystic constructs by exploiting loopholes int he rules, or places where the word and spirit of the rules apaprently diverge.

Lesser munchkins are not so bothererd about all of that, but do tend to build favourite concepts or (to their mind) synergistic constructs, and cannot see past the rules intot he spirit of the game.

I could well be doing the player a great disservice though: I really don't have enough information to venture a properly founded opinion (not that it usually stops me...)

[Bloodstone]

I'm pretty sure this is in a book somewhere. Ultimate Mentalist I believe, but I could be wrong.

In any event, I'd allow it, though like others probably only vs certain SFX and thus with some kind of limitation.

There might be a character who could come up with a SFX for the invisibility that I would allow that would work vs all SFX of Danger Sense though. The Avatar of a God of Assassins or some such, for example.

[Comic]

Qui Bono?

Is the character Hunted by someone with Danger Sense?
Does the character have a Rival with Danger Sense?
Is there a major campaign villain with Danger Sense?
Is Danger Sense an ability of many minor villains? Any villains at all?
Is Danger Sense an ability of any other player character?

If there's no harm to others, and no benefit to the character, then it's not really a munchkin build yet.

I can think of several reasons for invisibility to Danger Sense -- Nebbishness (I'm so harmless-seeming no one would take me as a threat); Unusualness (Who expects Density Change threats?); Talent (Latent mystical powers as yet unexplored) -- that might explain what the player wants.

If even I can come up with an explanation, the player ought have a chance to.

[Psylint]

I really don't think it's all that munchkin on first blush.

1. How really useful is invisibility to Danger Sense anyway? Seems to be an awfully rare kind of event. How many times do you allow fire/ice projectors to take huge amounts of resistance or damage reduction limited to those elements?

2. If the character can explain why they think it'll work, even if it involves "comic book physics" (tm) it's all good. I had a character that manipulated tiny choatic microfactors that create the "equal opposite reaction" in Newtonian physics to all go the same way. Now I have no clue how chaos theory and Newtonian physics actually interact, but it was a solid enough explanation for my GM to let me do some really neat stuff e.g. leap tall buildings in a single bound, hit like Thor's hammer, even though I couldn't lift 200 lbs. etc.

In a heroic campaign such an invisibility isn't that likely to come up. I mean, how often do heroes set up ambushes for villains?

Peace

[Sean Waters]

Qui Bono?

...................

Hanging out with the rest of U2?

[Mestopheles]

I sort of look at this question the same way I approach Power Defense (warning: house rule follows)

A specific SFX group isn't a requirement to buy the Power Defense, but there's definitely a strong argument for there being one. If you buy a holy symbol that provides "divine protection" Power Defense, it shouldn't protect against a Drain power with the SFX "Molecular Acid"... but with the RAW it would. However, GM fiat covers this, like most things.

With Danger sense, the justification for having a (for lack of a better term) non-sensory based sense, must be defined so I think it's only fair that you should have to define what this invisibility really is. Otherwise you’re asking for a blanket defense against a power that’s required to have a specific description (to me that’s munchkin.) An across-the-board (unlimited SFX) defense to a mandatory-SFX definition power is disparate.

Maybe you exist in a probability envelope where your waveform only collapses when you act, so precognition doesn’t apply to you because you weren’t “going to do it” until it happened.
(Particle man, particle man, doing things that a particle can…)
So precogs can't apply their danger sense to you; but if someone's danger sense is defined as "reflexes of a predatory insect" you're still going to be "detected" because they're actually reacting to your action, just so quickly it's as if they're not caught by surprise.

Whatever the case, I think this invisibility power needs to have its SFX defined or it’d be abusive (At least in my mind)

[Bloodstone]

Isn't it Cui Bono anyhow?

[DocSamson]

I don't think it's a munchkin build, if it fits into his SFX, unless Danger Sense is unusually common in your campaign.

[casualplayer]

This is actually a surprising amount of points to squander unless the player is constantly getting his ambushes ruined by NPCs with Danger Sense.

Everyone and their mother's uncle of Spider-Man's villains came up with some way of shorting out his Danger Sense. It's very appropriate for the supers genre.

[archermoo]

Agreed. Invisibility is bought vs. Sense Groups, and "Danger Sense" is not a Sense Group. OTOH, if a given application of Danger Sense was defined as, say, incredibly heightened smell that allowed them to get "a whiff of danger" or something, I'd allow Invisibility to Smell to make a character "immune" to that Danger Sense.

Invisibility can also be purchased for specific senses. The base of Danger Sense is a Detect, and Hero Designer allows Invisibility to purchased vs. Danger Sense.

Though it seems odd to me that you are required to purchase Invis vs. a Sense Group first, and only then are allowed to add specific senses.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Invisibility can also be purchased for specific senses. The base of Danger Sense is a Detect, and Hero Designer allows Invisibility to purchased vs. Danger Sense.Okay, I'll rephrase. ;)

As a GM, I would require that any given instance of Danger Sense must define a Sense Group to which it belongs, and that specific Danger Sense would be treated as a sense of that type. Invisibility to it would then work as with any other Sense Group.

For example, let's say a character has Danger Sense defined as a Mental sense. Characters could "evade" that sense with either Invisibility to the Mental Sense Group, or Invisibility to the single sense "Mental Danger Sense".

[Sean Waters]

Isn't it Cui Bono anyhow?

Yes, but that in no way affects the validity of the Paul Hewson joke.

[Sean Waters]

Okay, I'll rephrase. ;)

As a GM, I would require that any given instance of Danger Sense must define a Sense Group to which it belongs, and that specific Danger Sense would be treated as a sense of that type. Invisibility to it would then work as with any other Sense Group.

For example, let's say a character has Danger Sense defined as a Mental sense. Characters could "evade" that sense with either Invisibility to the Mental Sense Group, or Invisibility to the single sense "Mental Danger Sense".


Agreed, the proper implementation and applciation of sfx makes for a smoother game experience, but Hero would allow 'Invisibility to Danger Sense', and that would cover danger sense based on any sense group. Indeed if you buy Danger Sense as an unusual sense, tehn the only way you can counter it is with a general application of DS Invisibility. I agree I might want to hear the explanation the player gives for that, but I would not necessarily dismiss the idea.

I mean, to take what might be considered a legitimate sfx for danger sense - precognition. You sense danger because you know it has happened. Now that can't really be limtied to any one sense group - even if you can't sense the attack, you KNOW you are about to be attacked, because you sense the effects of the attack, so I'd suggest that buying the DS for an unusual sense (which is more expensive) makes sense.

Now someone might be able to come up with a reason why their invisible to DS could counter that. Mechanically countering it is not a problem, but I'd want to know how the power is supposed to work. If the invisibility to DS worked by sending (somehow) 'false futures' then the DS would fail. There's probably all sorts of other sfx that could effectively counter too, but I'm using most of my brain for something else right now, so I'll have to leave that to others to explore :)

[archermoo]

Okay, I'll rephrase. ;)

As a GM, I would require that any given instance of Danger Sense must define a Sense Group to which it belongs, and that specific Danger Sense would be treated as a sense of that type. Invisibility to it would then work as with any other Sense Group.

For example, let's say a character has Danger Sense defined as a Mental sense. Characters could "evade" that sense with either Invisibility to the Mental Sense Group, or Invisibility to the single sense "Mental Danger Sense".

I knew it was in there somewhere. 5ER, p89:

"Danger Sense does not simulate any Sense Group (see Enhanced Senses, page 160). It stands alone, and only Sense-Affecting Powers specifically bought to affect it can interfere with it."

So at least as written DS doesn't fall into any Sense Groups.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Yes, I understand what the book says. I'm saying I wouldn't run it that way. :)

[archermoo]

Yes, I understand what the book says. I'm saying I wouldn't run it that way. :)

Cool, just checking. :)

Not entirely sure how I'd run it, but it would probably depend on the campaign.

[pinecone]

I have a player that wanted to buy “Invisible to Danger Sense”. The character in question is not a mentalist but rather a character with density changing abilities. I disallowed the poser but my question to Herodom assembled is: Was it a Munchkin power build?

Not in my book...but a Density dude? No way. But a super-ninja? or Zen master....Sure why not?

[BoneDaddy]

Ditto. I could even see an EDM based character developing that sort of invisibility (it's a form of indirect attack - it comes backward from the future along the timestream, so you can't see it coming, even with danger sense. OK that's awesome, I have a new super coming down the pipe. From the future.)

[ghost-angel]

I have a character who has Invisibility to Danger Sense. They have Invisibility to just about everything else too. That's their power.

It is, in and of itself, not all that unbalancing. It has helped me about three times. Both times to devastating effect mind you, but compared to the overall life of the character it is but a drop in the bucket of usefulness.

[Sean Waters]

I knew it was in there somewhere. 5ER, p89:

"Danger Sense does not simulate any Sense Group (see Enhanced Senses, page 160). It stands alone, and only Sense-Affecting Powers specifically bought to affect it can interfere with it."

So at least as written DS doesn't fall into any Sense Groups.

You are quite right, but the problem is that DS has not been costed, or possibly built quite right.

A sense has to work with a simulated sense group, and get the 'free' elements of the senses bought through that group OR buy all the components it needs separately. Although it works through normal human senses, we know that DS is not part of any simulated sense group for that - it is its own unusual sense group, and unusual sense groups do not gain any components that are not bought for them.

Danger Sense is not bought with range. That means that it can't detect danger from anything that is not in contact with the character. I suppose the idea is that it is detecting danger to the character, but that does not work for me - it is supposed to also be targeting if you do well on your roll and a non-ranged targeting sense is not a lot of use really. Thinking about it the sense is also supposed to be able to detect the range todanger, which clearly contemplates the danger being at range.

You need to buy 'sense' for it separately (as it mentions in the text at the start but does not repeat int he cost summary at the end - I bet quite a few people miss that).

Moreover, as it works through normal human senses unless the 'any danger' adder is bought, you CAN become invisible to DS by using an attack invisible to normal human senses, or attacking when invisible to normal human senses. It cannot detect danger from something not perceivable to normal human senses in its basic form.

Finally, bought as a detect, it really ought to be a 10 point one as 'danger' is clearly an abstract and very common thing for most heroes.

Ignoring the targeting element (which you should probably be able to buy as a separate 5 point adder) it should cost out like this:

15 points: Danger Sense: Detect Danger (abstract very common) A Large Class Of Things 11- (Unusual Group), Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees), Range, Sense (22 Active Points); Limited Power Power (Works through normal human senses; -1/2)

It would be nice to also be able to buy DS through senses, using the simulated sense rule (which of course you can, but proabbly not many do because it si presented as a talent package).

15 points Danger Sense: Detect Danger (abstract very common) A Large Class Of Things 11- (Sight Group), Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees)

This version is automatically targetting, and would enable the character to spot things that do not appear overtly dangerous from tiny clues, and target that danger, but would be blocked by darkness, of flash, or invisibility, and could be disrupted by images or change environment.

Actually you might get away with 10 points on that last build if the GM allows you to add the 360 degree sensing and an additional class of detect to normal sight (+5 points). There are probably all sorts of other limitaitons you could add: restrainable springs to mind.

[archermoo]

You are quite right, but the problem is that DS has not been costed, or possibly built quite right.


More accurately not built how you would've built it. :)

I don't see that it needs Range built into it until you are sensing danger to others. You are sensing danger, not the source of it. Though you do get the distance to the source. And can target the source if you roll well enough, but that's paid for.

It doesn't need to be a 10 point detect, because at base it can only detect dangers in combat. The list of dangers that you aren't already aware of while in combat is pretty short. Adding in the ability to detect dangers outside of combat bumps it up to a 10 point detect.

[Sean Waters]

More accurately not built how you would've built it. :)

I don't see that it needs Range built into it until you are sensing danger to others. You are sensing danger, not the source of it. Though you do get the distance to the source. And can target the source if you roll well enough, but that's paid for.

It doesn't need to be a 10 point detect, because at base it can only detect dangers in combat. The list of dangers that you aren't already aware of while in combat is pretty short. Adding in the ability to detect dangers outside of combat bumps it up to a 10 point detect.

Danger sense senses danger and the range to it, so the sense must be able to deal with range, but is not built with range. Targetting does not grant range, that is a seperate ability: a targeting sense with no range can only target something it you are in contact with.

As to the level of detect, well, a 5 point detect can detect an object or phenomena that significantly affects combat, but the examples given are all of a nature: metals aliens minds magic. An energy or object - something you could easily write a rule to identify.

To detect an abstract, like danger (or, to use the book example, enemies - a very similar concept) which could come from absolutely any source and will probably be something different every time it is detected you need a 10 point detect.

No, it is not how I would've built it: but then I'm not making up my example builds, they are straight out of the enhanced senses section of 5ER.

I mean, let us take an example - if you don't need range, then all you can detect is, in effect, the danger once it gets to you.

If someone is 100" away and fires an indirect shot that circles round and hits you from the other side, how can you possibly know where the damger came from - you'd at best know where it hit. With normal senses it would be too late by then.

I mean, if you don't need the range adder on a sense to detect something or someone 100" away, why do you need it at all?

[Psylint]

Sean,

I think that's an interpretive problem. Take your example of the long range sniper with the funky indirect missile. Does that missile pose any danger to anyone or anything other than the target?

If not, then the danger is located at the target, and not the shooter.

As I recall, even a successful danger sense roll doesn't tell you where the origin of the danger is, such that you could attack it a full OCV. You need a superior roll for that. Particularly for Danger Sense that's intuitive, which never lets you act offensively on it, the range thing just doesn't come up, in my humble opinion.

Peace

[Sean Waters]

Sean,

I think that's an interpretive problem. Take your example of the long range sniper with the funky indirect missile. Does that missile pose any danger to anyone or anything other than the target?

If not, then the danger is located at the target, and not the shooter.

As I recall, even a successful danger sense roll doesn't tell you where the origin of the danger is, such that you could attack it a full OCV. You need a superior roll for that. Particularly for Danger Sense that's intuitive, which never lets you act offensively on it, the range thing just doesn't come up, in my humble opinion.

Peace

A successful danger sense roll tells you the range to the target. Not sure how you can tell that if you can not sense something at range. Roll by half and you can target the danger*. If your interpretation is right then the danger is somewhere on your body surface. Not sure how targetting that will help :)

My view is that the danger is 100" away, but the damage is in contact with you :)**

Sensing damage is only going to be useful if you are precognitive, and even then we are straight into paradox - if it was not going to hit you then presumably you would not be able to sense it, but if you do sense it and successfully react, you were never hit, so you should not have been able to detect the danger that allowed you to avoid the damage.

I'm overthinking this, aren't I? Ignore that last paragraph: it is a paradox :D



* Except as you say for intuitive DS, but even with that you are supposed to know the range to the danger.

**It is like buying a detect for 'Stuff that is going to make me wealthy'. Would that not involve range? Apparently not - it is YOU who will be wealthy and the range to YOU is zero. The fact the thing you are actually detecting might be miles away is irrelevant. It still works fine.

If you word the detect cunningly enough you probably don't need any adders to the enhanced sense at all: Detect what I'm thinking about, the range to it, and the direction from me. Cool. I can detect whatever I can think of, and I got range and 360 degree sensing for free. Hmm. Now I feel all dirty. Did I do a bad thing?

[ghost-angel]

I'm actually leaning towards Sean here. If you don't attach Danger Sense to another Sense Group via the Simulated Sense Group Rules you should really add Ranged to it separately.

Either way, since you can't buy Invisibility to the Unusual Group (where Danger Sense sits at default) you can buy it to Danger Sense specifically.

[incrdbil]

Given no further information it seems questionable. Density control has nothing related to traditional Danger sense. A Danger Sense defined by some aspect of special affect somehow affected by density might recieve a modifier to the roll. It seems more appropriate for that type of Danger Sense to have a limited effect limitation though. I mean, Invisibility vs Danger Sense, only vs danger sensses with a special effect of smell or motion detectiion is a pretty darn rare circumstance to the point -2 might not be a fair cost reduction.


But to me a blanket invisibility to any ype of Danger sense Sense isn't justified simply by saying 'density increase' powers. Limiting as above seems to produce a pretty useless power though.

[casualplayer]

Maybe Intent to Harm radiates outward from the assailant and Danger Sense is like Passive Sonar? The quiet mind could make himself invisible to being detected.

Danger Sense (Detect quasi-mystical, unquantifiable thing) is a pain in the keister because it always mandates a SFX vs. SFX ruling that is always a GM's nightmare, especially when it involves inter-player conflict. It also wrecks a huge array of potential plotlines. Razzin', frazzin' stupid power.

[Comic]

Question: Didn't the Vision have invisibility to Danger Sense?

Sorry, Cuestion. ;)

[Sean Waters]

Question: Didn't the Vision have invisibility to Danger Sense?

Sorry, Cuestion. ;)

:)

Not that I'm aware of, but Venom was certainly invisible to Spiderman's DS.

Mind you it is rare in comics that we get any kind of decent explanation as to how such powers work anyway.

I wonder whether you could reduce the density of the danger you emanate until it is effectively desolid?

One (slightly) interesting thing you can do with DS is decide if it is passive or active. Generally I assume that it is passive - a sort of observation based intuition, but in worlds where anything is possible you might emit 'Peril Particles' and detect the ones that are reflected back at you...

[BoneDaddy]

If your desolid is defined as orienting your quantum states to all be perpendicular to our reality (or some such BS) whereby the hero effectively both exists and does not exist, I could see that POSSIBLY being a way to justify an invisibility to danger sense - if you don't truly exist in the portions of space-time that we use, perhaps you can't be perceived as a threat. Maybe if your Density Manipulation has to do with an ability to aggregate dark matter to yourself, or to become dark matter itself to a greater or lesser extent. 80% of the known universe is made of the stuff, and I'll be damned if I can figure out how Danger Sense would sense it, or even how it would be a danger.

Which brings me to another point. When desolid, what sort of danger are you? Would danger sense really include the prosepect of a mental attack? Depending on the SFX, I suppose.

[Sean Waters]

If your desolid is defined as orienting your quantum states to all be perpendicular to our reality (or some such BS) whereby the hero effectively both exists and does not exist, I could see that POSSIBLY being a way to justify an invisibility to danger sense - if you don't truly exist in the portions of space-time that we use, perhaps you can't be perceived as a threat. Maybe if your Density Manipulation has to do with an ability to aggregate dark matter to yourself, or to become dark matter itself to a greater or lesser extent. 80% of the known universe is made of the stuff, and I'll be damned if I can figure out how Danger Sense would sense it, or even how it would be a danger.

Which brings me to another point. When desolid, what sort of danger are you? Would danger sense really include the prosepect of a mental attack? Depending on the SFX, I suppose.

Actually that is a good point - if you are about to be hit with a mind control that inbstructs you to 'run away and hide', does that place you in any danger? Quite the opposite, perhaps - it is getting you out of danger, so presumably would not trigger your DS?

Similarly an attack power like telepathy - which allows the attacker to read your mind but not affect you other than by communication (and I assume that communication does not normally set off DS) causes no harm, and so again perhaps should not trigger the sense. Of course the information gained may be used to harm you but if so used that WOULD trigger the DS.

Now, has anyone got a worm compressor and a can welding kit?

[Alibear]

One the PC's in my campaign has Danger Sense. After a hard day adventuring she likes nothing better than to have a long bath in the dark, kinda meditation thing to clear the mind.

The player really shit himself when he worked out the assassin hunting his character had invisibility to Danger Sense.

[BoneDaddy]

I guess the Spanish Inquisition had invisibility to Danger Sense...

[ghost-angel]

No one suspects them anyways.

[casualplayer]

I heavily used Aaron Allston's The Blood in my old game and one of the things I did was give them all Danger Sense and Invisibility to Danger Sense. Just because I hate the grief caused by the power doesn't mean that I don't use it. Kept the players on their toes, especially when Commodore succumbed to the Blood madness. :sneaky:

[CorPse]

I have a player that wanted to buy “Invisible to Danger Sense”. The character in question is not a mentalist but rather a character with density changing abilities. I disallowed the poser but my question to Herodom assembled is: Was it a Munchkin power build?

Yeah, without some very special SFX and reasoning this would get the big red stop sign from me.

[Sean Waters]

In a world with superpowers, at best you need a tenous justification for any power at all.

To be honest, I don't see this as a game breaker.

Think about it.

If a villain has the power then presumably (although not necessarily) one or more of the PCs will have DS. The PCs in question get a little shaken, but triumph over adversity and you probably never have to bother running that schtick again.

If a PC has the ability, well, it is only going to be useful when a villain has DS, so the GM is still very much in charge of the action.

I can see it being one of those things that people with VPPs will be adding to their lists, but, unless the character is quesiton is invisible to practically everything else too (and they are n)ot, trust me) then they are detectable in exactly the same way as if they did not have invisibility to DS except, you know, with DS.

Really. Don't sweat this one too much, or if you are going to then at least do so productively:

"Er, sure you can have invisibility to DS but, er, leave the sfx to me, huh?"

Then you decide that the invisibility to DS is nothing to do with the density increase as such but it si part of the racial heritage of the Shi-Kazar, an alien race of shapeshifters. Odd because Earth has had no contact with the Shi-Kazar, and the PC has no inkling that they even exist, let alone that he is related tot hem. Someone does though...

Oh, and for all those cunning types who like to buy invisibility to all those cunning senses, can I suggest a new (unusual sense detect: Detect invisibility :D

[Talon]

In a world with superpowers, at best you need a tenous justification for any power at all.

To be honest, I don't see this as a game breaker.

I prefer slightly more justification that this...however that's not the biggest issue I have.

There are some players who, if they came to me (as GM) and asked for this power under these circumstances, I'd make it work (for example, in the creative manner you suggest in your post). In such a circumstance, the power would probably cause no problems at all. However, these kinds of players are the least likely to ask me for such a power.

In my experience, the kind of player who would ask for this is the kind of player who has trouble focusing on special effects and character concept over power and effectiveness. I find that granting this kind of request for this kind of player leads to trouble. (OTOH, if they can address the questions of SFX and the like, so much the better!) Because of this, my default answer is no; but I'm open to convincing.