Breaking Personality Stereotypes for the Archetypes [Archive]

Hermit

Jul 19th, '03, 09:28 AM

WARNING: Longwinded

I was thinking of constructing an NPC super team as possible rivals for some PCs, but I also wanted to make it fun for me. So I thought, what if I went with the classic archetypes, but deliberately broke the personality stereotypes often associated with them?

After about 30 minutes I realized it seemed there was very little under the sun that the writers of comicdom hadn't already at least tried. :) Still, here's what I've come up with so far.

Brick- This was one of the hardest because the 'strong guy' type is so darn common in comic books. You have brutish Bricks, ingenius Bricks, joking bricks, angsty bricks, and so on. I tried to find one personality trait that I didn't see much, and it was hard. However, I was thinking maybe a pacifist Brick? One who prefers not to fight until he must. Some might even confuse him (or her) for Timid.

Energy Projector- Most I've seen tend to match the 'energies' they project. Flame characters are 'hotheads', Ice characters are either chillingly aloof or at least keep their cool ;) Sometimes you get a reversal just for contrast. This one really stumped me.

Gadgetteer- I could be wrong, but I really don't think there are that many combat eager gadgeteers in the comic books. Well, at least not heroes. Sure, they get excited about science, but how many like to kick butt? The idea of a gadgeteer super hero with an attitude of "I can't wait to try out my new boom disk! uhm, on evil, of course." appeals to me.

Martial Artist- Are there many blue collar Martial Artists? Average joes who aren't into zen? I guess Dirty Infighters would be that sort. Maybe I'm missing some options here.

Mentalists- Arrogant Mentalists, reluctant mentalists, pedantic and so on, we see a lot of options in the comics. I'm trying to find a mentalist personality I haven't seen much. I don't recall the "Party Animal" type. I guess that mental discipline works against you for your social life? :)

Metamorphs- I've seen it in villainous metamorphs, but I haven't seen too many ruthlessly efficient no nonsense super hero metamorphs. In the recent "Name the Hero" contest, I found out more than one person entering a stretching sort made their submission deliberately not zany. Mind you, Reed Richards is not a 'fun guy' but he's not exactly ruthlessly pragmatic either.

Mystics- It's all been done. :) Prove me wrong.

Patriot- Has anyone made a Patriot who challenges his or her own government regularly? Participating in rallies and such? I had a concept called "Defiant" that did just that. I think it was fairly original, but I could be wrong. Mind you, given the Avatar part of Patriots, anything COULD be done really.

Powered Armor- Scientific minds, and playboys often seem to be the norm. I've seen soldiers placed in suits. I don't recall many rebels here either though. After all, to get a power suit you normally have to either be part of the establishment (Wealthy member able to dictate agenda) or given suit BY the establishment ("You will be testing the..." ) . This allows for visionaries with their own agendas, or soldiers doing their duty, but the rebel seems often missing. I guess most 'rogue' Powered Armor types become default villains as likely the gear isn't legally theirs.

Speedster- Barry Allen was dedicated, a serious scientists; Wally West has been portrayed as a fun loving youth, later Womanizer, before settling down a bit more seriously. Quicksilver is usually cranky (The man wants his cheeseburger-today!). Are there any mellow laid back speedsters? The sort who take their time? I don't recall many, probably because in the comics we WANT to see a speedster zip around. I maybe missing one though.

Weaponmaster- Honorbound Swordsmen, Rough edged archers, joking heroes who fling theme weapons ("Pick a card, any card"). The only Weaponmaster I don't have spring to mind instantly is "The Reluctant Weaponmaster". Normally, mastery of a weapon is sought. These folks WANT to use their weapon well. So a reluctant one might require some finagling on the background. On second thought, I suppose Travis Morgan, D.C.'s Warlord might have qualified, but its not like I remember he and that hungry blade teaming up with the JLA much.

..........
Any other thoughts guys and gals?

Doug McCrae

Jul 19th, '03, 09:50 AM

Doug McCrae

Jul 19th, '03, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by Hermit
Metamorphs- I've seen it in villainous metamorphs, but I haven't seen too many ruthlessly efficient no nonsense super hero metamorphs. In the recent "Name the Hero" contest, I found out more than one person entering a stretching sort made their submission deliberately not zany. Mind you, Reed Richards is not a 'fun guy' but he's not exactly ruthlessly pragmatic either.The visuals make a stretcher a natural humour character in comics (much less important for rpgs). It's hard to retain much dignity when you've swelled up in the shape of a balloon. I think Stan Lee was doing an 'against type' with Reed Richards, very much aware of Plastic Man and trying to do something duifferent - a serious-minded stretcher.

Hermit

Jul 19th, '03, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by Doug McCrae
A boxer? Like the GA Wildcat?

Doh!
See what I mean, this isn't easy ;)
Thanks.

Anyone have an idea what (if anything) hasn't been done personality wise for a martial artist in the super hero genre?

Doug McCrae

Jul 19th, '03, 09:58 AM

The Patriot is different from all the rest because that archetype determines an aspect of personality but says nothing about powers or origin. I think you can get a great deal of mileage out of patriots with different power-sets/races.

So you could have patriotic wizards, catgirls or swamp monsters - "U... S... A..."

These are pretty weird concepts but you have to be a little bit weird if you want to be original.

Hermit

Jul 19th, '03, 10:05 AM

Well, I did have a concept for a Patriot Mystic. A star spangled wiccan I was going to dub "American Athame", but my RL pagan friends threatened violence :D

Doug McCrae

Jul 19th, '03, 10:12 AM

I think you're right. Brick is toughest because they've all been done. The best you can hope for might be one that hasn't be done as much.

The happy-go-lucky or wisecracker demeanour is most commonly asociated with agile, bounce-around types so is a bit more interesting for a brick. But a certain jade giantess already has that combo down. Go a bit further and make the personality totally maniac/manic like the Creeper?

What about a mysterious, mystical brick? The Thing's powers but with the Phantom Stranger/Raven's personality.

The Kid. This is a team personality type, represented by Iceman, the Human Torch or Kitty Pryde. I can't think of a brick exemplar. Or go further and have a brick that actually is a child, like 8 years old or something, but on a team of (or at least looked after by) adult superheroes? Now that would be a menace.

What about a brick with a nerdy Woody Allenish persona? He might lose his nerdiness now he can shove people around.

Agent X

Jul 19th, '03, 10:22 AM

Broot was a pacifist.

Dr. Anomaly

Jul 19th, '03, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by Doug McCrae
The happy-go-lucky or wisecracker demeanour is most commonly asociated with agile, bounce-around types so is a bit more interesting for a brick. But a certain jade giantess already has that combo down. Go a bit further and make the personality totally maniac/manic like the Creeper?

If you've ever seen the animated "Tick", think of Mr. Exciting from the episode "The Tick vs. Education."

winterhawk

Jul 19th, '03, 11:43 AM

Here are some of characters from my own campaign that I think break stereotype, hope they provide some inspiration:

Brick - Reef, a Thing-like brick covered in a coral-like hide and having stinging anemone tendrils he wears like dreadlocks. He is a member of my Morlock styled mutant undergound. He is a surfer, a stoner and a total pacifist, who hangs out with the Freex "Because its easier dealing with them then normal people." No mutant angst whatsoever.

EB - Flux, who can manipulate the flow of any ambient energy in his vacinity. He is also bi-polar, meaning he is reckless at his high points and paranoid and delusional at his low.

Gadgeteer - Mr. Fix, Chicago's Blue collar Forge, with an instictive understanding of "how things work". He looks at everything in terms of contracting: "This alien device is just like a garbage disposal that's been clogged up...we need the equivalent of cosmic Drano!"

MA - I have several boxing MA's which are a good alternate to the ninja/kung fu fighter. Or how about a Mexican Wrestler? To quote Homer Simpson: "Ooh, down there its a real sport."

Mentalist - My least favorite of any archetype. The best I can offer is Synapse, a biokinetic and sadist, who uses his abilities to control other peoples nervous systems to put them at a disadvantage so hit can beat on them with meager MA skills.

Mystic - Santeria, both a devout Catholic and practitioner of magic, torn between her faith and her powers.

Powerhouse

Jul 19th, '03, 12:25 PM

"The Kid. This is a team personality type, represented by Iceman, the Human Torch or Kitty Pryde. I can't think of a brick exemplar. Or go further and have a brick that actually is a child, like 8 years old or something, but on a team of (or at least looked after by) adult superheroes? Now that would be a menace."

Badrock of Youngblood as a kid type I believe.

For a blue-collar gadgeteer, I think the Freedom Patrol (VOICE of Doom, was it?) from early in the series had one called Hardhat.

How about a sonic EBer who hates noise and people. I can see him or her screaming at the top of their lungs, knocking down buildings, "WILL YOU SHUT THE HELL UP!?!?!?"

OddHat

Jul 19th, '03, 01:37 PM

Try a themed group. "The Frat Boys." "The French Philosophers." "The Special Olympians." Then, have the press lionize them above your PCs. It'll drive them nuts. ;-)

Mixing and matchiing is probably easiest.
Example: The Rough Mechanicals

Brick: Zebediah "Boozer" Davis, 170 year old alchoholic ex-gold miner on a bender. Got drunk in 1852 and hasn't sobered up yet. Theme powers include "too drunk to feel pain" and "drunken rage."

Mentalist/Mystic: Ricky the Thinking Brain Dog (credit to Pratchett). Zebediah's 150 year old dog, happy, stupid for a human (IQ of 80), awesome mental powers. Mental Paralysis effect: Go Lick Yourself.

Martial Artist / Gadgeteer / Weapon's Master: Floyd "Barman" Hooker. Skinny potbellied 182 year old bartender alchamist, can turn anything found in a bar into a deadly weapon. Brewed the Eternal Red Eye that created the Rough Mechanicals. Shouldn't have mixed in those funny mushrooms from the meteor crater in the Indian burial grounds.

Patriot / Speedster: Vladislav "Red Ink" Kopernik. Came to America in 1864 as an accountant for a mining company and was drinking in the bar on Eternal Red Eye Day. Small, skinny, gloomy. Surfs on red ink that sprays from under his fingers, may also entangle or blind foes using same ink. Insanely law abiding, loves his country, fights evil because it's disorderly.

Power Armor / Metamorph: Frieda "Still Married" Dueseldorfer Hooker. 180 year old fat shrewish wife of Floyd, wears shape-changing power-armor made of "Drunken Metal" remains of Floyd's brewing equipment and things Floyd has added from various bars over the years. Some shape changing and regeneration powers of her own, all offense (other than personality based) comes from suit.

Background:
Ever since ERE Day, the Rough Mechanicals have worked together for Truth, Justice, and the American Way of Life. Well, technically, only Red Ink and maybe Ricky have cared about those things, but the others have tagged along. Low on offensive power, the absurd regenerative powers bestowed by the Eternal Red Eye together with over a century and a half of experience have made the group surprisingly formidable, and the accumulated wealth generated by Floyd's pattents (he invented the pub quiz) and Vladislav's investing accumen have made them rich. Floyd has yet to duplicate the ERE, but he swears that it's only a matter of time. Meanwhile, wherever evil rears it's ugly head, wherever good men suffer, wherever the taps break on game night, there you will hear the battle cries of the Rough Mechanicals!

Boozer: You think yer better than me!

Ricky: Woof! Woof!

Barman: Have one on the house!

Red Ink: Time to ballance your accounts lawbreaker!

Still Married: What would you mama think of what you doing!

Cyragnome

Jul 19th, '03, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by OddHat
Mixing and matchiing is probably easiest.
Example: The Rough Mechanicals
<snip>
:D Hilarious!

Bravo!

JohnOSpencer

Jul 19th, '03, 04:03 PM

Hermit: The only powered armor character i've come up with is a kid who inherited the armor from it's former(dying) owner. He's just a jock and if it gets busted, he can't fix it.

John Spencer

assault

Jul 19th, '03, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by OddHat
Try a themed group. ... "The French Philosophers."

Ah yes, the "Jean-Paul Sartre Brigade", aka "Descarte's Demons", aka "The Black Berets".

It's been done, but not in Champions, that I know of.

Alan

Pattern Ghost

Jul 19th, '03, 04:49 PM

I guess most 'rogue' Powered Armor types become default villains as likely the gear isn't legally theirs.

Booster Gold swiped his power armor.

Child brick: Prime.

OddHat

Jul 19th, '03, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by assault
Ah yes, the "Jean-Paul Sartre Brigade", aka "Descarte's Demons", aka "The Black Berets".

It's been done, but not in Champions, that I know of.

Alan

Sooner or later, so long as you're willing to stretch a bit, everything has been done. The trick is to pick good source material and re-do it well.

"Once you've filed off the serial numbers it belongs to you." -Heinlein

;-)

McCoy

Jul 19th, '03, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by Hermit
Brick- This was one of the hardest because the 'strong guy' type is so darn common in comic books. You have brutish Bricks, ingenius Bricks, joking bricks, angsty bricks, and so on. I tried to find one personality trait that I didn't see much, and it was hard. However, I was thinking maybe a pacifist Brick? One who prefers not to fight until he must. Some might even confuse him (or her) for Timid.[/B]

Always seemed to me that Beast was the ultimate anti-type brick, intelectual and prefers reason over violence.

How about an openly-Gay gym rat? Moderate DEX, 20 COM, rest into STR and defenses. Will hit on the group's male brick in two different ways. "Take that! And call me!"

Originally posted by Hermit
Energy Projector- Most I've seen tend to match the 'energies' they project. Flame characters are 'hotheads', Ice characters are either chillingly aloof or at least keep their cool ;) Sometimes you get a reversal just for contrast. This one really stumped me. [/B]

Fictional Energy Projectors tend to stand out. At least one class of RL ones do not. An EP sniper, tacturn, using stealth to keep out of sight, patiently waiting for their shot.

Originally posted by Hermit
Gadgetteer- I could be wrong, but I really don't think there are that many combat eager gadgeteers in the comic books. Well, at least not heroes. Sure, they get excited about science, but how many like to kick butt? The idea of a gadgeteer super hero with an attitude of "I can't wait to try out my new boom disk! uhm, on evil, of course." appeals to me.[/B]

How about massive luck/unluck. He builds the gadget, it misfires or otherwise malfunctions, then a Rube Goldberg series of "coincidences" bring about the desired result.

Originally posted by Hermit
Martial Artist- Are there many blue collar Martial Artists? Average joes who aren't into zen? I guess Dirty Infighters would be that sort. Maybe I'm missing some options here.[/B]

How about a low Dex martial artist? Damage shield equal to opponents attack, missile reflection, and about 10 levels with reflection and block? Plus a really annoying personality, will taunt characters until they hit him. Repetedly. Or would that be a brick?

OR, martial artist usually have some discipline in their training, how about a total stoner with a wild talent? One of his teammates will have to choose his target, but he will dodge ranged attacks and throw those closing for HTH, apparently with out being aware of them. Identifying quote: "Dude! Chill! What's everyone so upset about? Can't we all just get along? Are you going to finish that?"

Originally posted by Hermit
Mentalists- Arrogant Mentalists, reluctant mentalists, pedantic and so on, we see a lot of options in the comics. I'm trying to find a mentalist personality I haven't seen much. I don't recall the "Party Animal" type. I guess that mental discipline works against you for your social life? :)[/B]

Too simular to the stoner MA, I had an NPC who was a severly retarted brick/mentalist. (Whole family was telepaths, he was a telepath who could communicate only three coherent thoughts.) Usually used his TK to reenforced his body (TK Sx for extra STR and 0 END FF). Also had an Ego attack, normal TK, and the personality of a two year old.

Originally posted by Hermit
Metamorphs- I've seen it in villainous metamorphs, but I haven't seen too many ruthlessly efficient no nonsense super hero metamorphs. In the recent "Name the Hero" contest, I found out more than one person entering a stretching sort made their submission deliberately not zany. Mind you, Reed Richards is not a 'fun guy' but he's not exactly ruthlessly pragmatic either.[/B]

I never met a morph I didn't like. Uh, how about no personality? Think Ben Stein or Bob Newhart with super powers. Maybe even tries wisecracking, but each one is delivered with such deadpan delivery that it falls flat. This is the guy who blows the punch line on every joke.

Originally posted by Hermit
Mystics- It's all been done. :) Prove me wrong.[/B]

Total fanboy gamer. Can Summon creatures from the Magic card game, or D&D monsters, or Pokemon, then pontificate on their abilities, strenghts, and weaknesses as they are fighting.

Originally posted by Hermit
Patriot- Has anyone made a Patriot who challenges his or her own government regularly? Participating in rallies and such? I had a concept called "Defiant" that did just that. I think it was fairly original, but I could be wrong. Mind you, given the Avatar part of Patriots, anything COULD be done really.[/B]

Under Englehart, Cap did severly question America after Watergate, going so far as to become Nomad, the Man Without a Country.

Maybe Anti-Patriot, the spirit of Civil Disobedence. Very bitter about the so-called Patriot Acts, gives long speaches on Waco, Ruby Ridge, and juror nulification that qualify as NND attacks (Defense: Flash Protection Hearing or registered Libertarian). Strangely, he looks a lot like me. :) Identifying quote: "I love my country, but I fear my government!"

Originally posted by Hermit
Powered Armor- Scientific minds, and playboys often seem to be the norm. I've seen soldiers placed in suits. I don't recall many rebels here either though. After all, to get a power suit you normally have to either be part of the establishment (Wealthy member able to dictate agenda) or given suit BY the establishment ("You will be testing the..." ) . This allows for visionaries with their own agendas, or soldiers doing their duty, but the rebel seems often missing. I guess most 'rogue' Powered Armor types become default villains as likely the gear isn't legally theirs.[/B]

Only thing coming to mind here is the hotdogger, Fonzie or Tom Cruse in Top Gun. Very impressed with the suit, constantly shows off what it can do, never uses casual STR when he can Push.

Originally posted by Hermit
Speedster- Barry Allen was dedicated, a serious scientists; Wally West has been portrayed as a fun loving youth, later Womanizer, before settling down a bit more seriously. Quicksilver is usually cranky (The man wants his cheeseburger-today!). Are there any mellow laid back speedsters? The sort who take their time? I don't recall many, probably because in the comics we WANT to see a speedster zip around. I maybe missing one though.[/B]

Barry seemed fairly laid back to me, Iris sometimes called him "the slowest man alive."

I'm thinking a total goth. Identifying quote: "This is so boring!

Originally posted by Hermit
Weaponmaster- Honorbound Swordsmen, Rough edged archers, joking heroes who fling theme weapons ("Pick a card, any card"). The only Weaponmaster I don't have spring to mind instantly is "The Reluctant Weaponmaster". Normally, mastery of a weapon is sought. These folks WANT to use their weapon well. So a reluctant one might require some finagling on the background. On second thought, I suppose Travis Morgan, D.C.'s Warlord might have qualified, but its not like I remember he and that hungry blade teaming up with the JLA much.[/B]

There's also the Wild Talent with Unusual Weapon, like Mystery Men's the Shovler.

Drawing a total blank here, sorry.

JmOz

Jul 19th, '03, 06:38 PM

On the Mystic: How about the skeptic:

Somehow he has access to amazing Magical Powers (Of a wish variety) but he KNOWS magic doesn't exist, but don't worry he will figure out how he does it one day...

Champsguy

Jul 19th, '03, 11:56 PM

Gadgeteer: Two-fisted adventurer type. Think Indiana Jones or Doc Savage. Just emphasize the "gadgeteer" part a little more.

Speedster: I had the lazy speedster. :) Yes, he was impatient, but what he really enjoyed doing was watching TV and reading comic books. He's the guy who lets the phone keep ringing, despite the fact that it's within reach. When another character made fun of him for reading "those dorky comics", he told him "Hey man, when you've got superspeed, you've got to find something to do." Why doesn't he ever clean his room incredibly quickly, or all those other things speedsters do with their time? Well, for one, he's got a girlfriend (cleaning is her job), and for two "just because it looks like I clean my room in the blink of an eye to you doesn't mean that it doesn't feel like an hour and a half to me".

Martial Artist: Kid Fist didn't really train or anything. He got his fantastic martial prowess from his sheer desire to hit people. The joy of combat gave him his power.

Metamorph: How about a suave ladies man? I mean, really... if anyone could pick up chicks it would be the dude with stretching powers...

William Bushway

Jul 20th, '03, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by Hermit

Brick- This was one of the hardest because the 'strong guy' type is so darn common in comic books.
How about a TK-brick that can only use his powers to create simple machines? "With a long enough lever and a place to stand, I could move the Earth" - Archimedes

Energy Projector- This one really stumped me.
Amp : a generic blaster with Variable SFX on each slot of his multi = he can manipulate the most prominent/powerful source of energy in his local environment. Streetlights emit laser blasts, an open freezer issues forth a blizzard, boomboxes create sonic booms. This guy is a thinker who enjoys the challenge of trying to think of new ways to use his environment.

Gadgetteer-
Kitbash/Kludge : An inventor who can't make things better than the stuff already out there, but he can make somethin almost as good from stuff just laying around. Can turn a washing machine into an APC, a cell-phone into a stun gun, etc. Can't put the old devices back together when he's finished ;)

Martial Artist- Maybe I'm missing some options here.
Pacifist : The martial artist that doesn't fight. Master of an art that redirects opponents energy - but not back at the opponent themself (too violent!). Dodge, Entangle (binds opponent with their own clothing), Missile reflection (aims shots back at te foci that fired them).

Mentalists- I don't recall the "Party Animal" type. I guess that mental discipline works against you for your social life? :)
Hmmm... how about an empath that can share any sensation he's experienced over the last 40 years of a hard-drinking partying lifestyle. Call him Hangover ;)

Metamorphs- I've seen it in villainous metamorphs, but I haven't seen too many ruthlessly efficient no nonsense super hero metamorphs.
I had a concept for a plant-based metamorph the had started out as a kid-sidekick in the Golden Age (the Green Boy), went on to a career as a adult hero (the Green Knight), and now is a mystical/"wild spirit" type (the Green Man). He started out his career with a Pinocchio complex, but as he's matured he's begun to embrace his alien-ness. Of course, also has a penchant for the legends of England :)

Mystics- It's all been done. :) Prove me wrong.
How about a mystical gadgetteer, one with no spellcasting powers of his own, who has a trunk full of different talismans, wands, and magical doodads that he uses? Loves to research and track down these things more than using them - I see him more as an appraiser from Antiques Roadshow than Sorcerer Supreme. Maybe he's out to keep them out of the wrong hands, or he's just an incurable collector. Give him unluck and a VPP of foci with charges and activations.

Patriot.- Has anyone made a Patriot who challenges his or her own government regularly?
How about a government-conspiracy nut who's appointed himself the Patriot of the "Real American government." Or a militant, Rage Against the Machine-type patriot - make her a female draped in a tattered american flag, who claims to be "the product of the rape of Lady Liberty by Big Business."

Powered Armor- Scientific minds, and playboys often seem to be the norm.
Maybe a an inventor who's designed a suit for a purpose that 90% thinks is bizarre/pointless? He soldiers on, using his own money, because he's convinced that the scientific discoveries he'll make with the suit will make him rich. I'm think of that guy who's developing the Bear Encounter Suit as inspiration here.

Speedster- Are there any mellow laid back speedsters? The sort who take their time? I don't recall many, probably because in the comics we WANT to see a speedster zip around. I maybe missing one though.
A speedster that is lazy and procrastinates because he literally saves up his energy for when he really needs it. Maybe he's even super-slow in everyday life - his voice is an octave lower, lower body temp, ages at a reduced rate. But then he makes up for it with bursts of incredible speed. I'm imagining an Eyore-type personality. Believes in taking it slow and doing it right - When he eventually gets fed up with people rushing around him and making mistakes, he shifts to hyperspeed and gets things done quickly and efficiently. "Now, was that so hard?"

Weaponmaster- Honorbound Swordsmen, Rough edged archers, joking heroes who fling theme weapons ("Pick a card, any card").
How about a pool (billiards) shark? There was a relatively goofy Marvel villain named 8-ball (http://www.geocities.com/marvel_oops/8ball/8ball.html) who used his expertise designing missile propulsion systems to create a pool cue that aplified the force applied to it by 1,000x. You could take that idea and make the character a little more "cool," kind of a hustler/Gambit-clone. Doesn't really break any sterotypes, but the concept has always had a certain charm for me :)

Hermit

Jul 20th, '03, 05:30 AM

Thank you folks :)

Some great ideas and input here.

Azimer the Mad

Jul 20th, '03, 09:27 AM

Another good child brick was Gully from Battle Chasers, a cute little blong 8-year-old in pigtails with magic gloves that gave her hulk-like strength. Brilliant visuals.

You could always go the Japanese route of having powerful bricks and mystics be clumsy schoolgirls who keep apologizing for the property damage.:D

Wildcat

Jul 20th, '03, 09:39 AM

Brick -
In our Game the Brick's name is Thrash, and while not totaly off the beaten path for bricks, hes BIG tough, and has all those nifty 'Brick tricks, he's a bit on the dif side of the big dumb guy. 1) he's a computer wiz, second only to the teams Gadgeteer. he's a GLORY HOUND big time, anything to get attention, and a total Gen X-er... Extreem sports, haning with Stars, Endorcments, you name it... if he can get seen doing somethign kool he's there. Thrash has to be reigned in from Time to time, but he never looses that "Child like" quality to his aproach to being a superhero. The fact that he's a brick is secondary to his personalty

EB -
Pheobus, a NPC in the game is an EB wit hSolar powers, whoe prety short lved at night... his main dif to his personality it he's Blue color... a construction worker... a guy who if he could have chosen his Power would have been a Brick... he has a rivalry with Bricks, has great Ranged combat abilities, but likes to close in... the total brick in an EB's body... works out, looks big and muscled, but next to real paranormals he's just a norm. Make for interesting play.

Speedster -
As others have said.. .Laid back... In our game Speedster (yeah the Player was at a loss for a name so that;s all it was, but it fit the char) was a total California surfer dude... he needed the THC in pot, so he smoked to slow down his brain, or he's burn out. He always had the "Mad Munchies" and always was laid back... even when doing things at high speed. And he could always be counted on to get distracted by a cute girl, or some "Tasty Waves"

All I can think of at this time, but I'll agree that most everything HAS been done. It's just re-doign them in a fresh way
WC

Lord Mhoram

Jul 20th, '03, 11:07 AM

Dunno how much what I have to say here will help, as these are mostly campaign examples, and they don't break personality stereotypes as much as others....

First off are Black Cat and Gibralter.
BC is a martial artist. She was the classic zen type, but absolutely no stealth skills, nothing other than some KS's PS's and combat skills. The sneaking MA was way to overdone at the time I built her.
Gibralter is a classic brick. However in her secret ID before she got her powers she was a private eye. So the brick in the group was the detective and the sneaky one.

The third is Ballistic.
Ex cop (dropped from the force for excessive violence) hired by the brilliant scientist for head of security and wore the supersuit. Classic cinematic streetcop attitude in powered armor.

After a couple of years I got a little tired of the character and did a rewrite. He had a mysic accident and had to learn magic to keep from "blowing up" from the mystic energies within him. So we have a supermage with a supersuit (now farily downpowered and without most of its offence besides strength) with a somewhat nast attitude.
I think he may be a fairly unique mystic.

Kintara

Jul 20th, '03, 11:39 AM

Take each character, make them primarily good at one sort of archetype, and a novice at another. Then have each really love their novice powers, and hate their primary ones.

A Brick who is obsessed with his minor magical aptitude, and the group's Mystic.

A Speedster who fanatically trains with the Mentalist to develop his technokinesis powers.

A Energy Projector who loves Kung Fu Fighting (but has only the ability of a minorly talented normal at it).

And a Mystic who desperately wants to understand the idea of patriotism. He's an alien, and is as arcane as can be, and has never heard of patriotism. Maybe his society is naturally anarchical (from our perspective) and is slowly dissolving from it. The Energy Projector is a Patriot (Chinese?).

A Mentalist with a wicked temper and a love of destruction. He follows around the Brick.

And a Martial Artist whose talents don't include flight, the one thing he was expecting to finally master in his Eastern travels (the Speedster is the Flyer). I guess he saw Crouching Tiger too many times.

Call them The Envious. Oh, and strengthen the explanations for why they hate their primary powers (the comics are filled with them).

umbra

Jul 20th, '03, 12:50 PM

I had a brick which was a small (5'2') red-haired female scientist...The most fun I had was beating someone on the head with a conference table on the way down to the street below... all while dressed in a lab coat, hair up in a bun and glasses on. She was the scientific brains of the group (it was a time travel game) and a major feminist (which made life interesting traveling through time). So on one hand she was this sort of drab geeky repressed type woman, but on the other hand an amazon warrior when pissed off. Lots of fun!

gewing

Jul 20th, '03, 02:30 PM

I must concur. :)

Originally posted by Cyragnome
:D Hilarious!

Bravo!

DocMan

Jul 21st, '03, 12:56 PM

Dog Soldier

Jul 21st, '03, 03:02 PM

Powered Armor guy that discovers sentient armor rather like the sentient armor of Iron Man (one of my favorite comic series) The armor needs a user and an ordinary blue-collar working man that's down on his luck fits the bill just fine. The new user is bitter about the failure in his personal life and the armor makes it easy for him to get even and get ahead. When the heroes finally encounter him and the armor he may be terrified of the armor but also totally dependant on it. The armor comes with a full set of technical specs and the user is skilled enough at the mechanics of iot that he can keep it going. Of course acquiring funds is easy for an amoral AI in the armor with his weak willed accomplice.

Kintara

Jul 21st, '03, 03:13 PM

Or a suit of magical armor that was magically bound to a hero. The trouble is that the hero's been dead for three hundred years, and the intelligent armor simply cannot become unbound from the warrior's skeleton. So it has decided to move around, just leaving the limp skeleton there behind the visor.

Edit: On second thought, that sounds vaguely familiar. . . .

BNakagawa

Jul 21st, '03, 03:56 PM

You don't see very many cowardly bricks...

Stephen Mann

Jul 22nd, '03, 04:54 PM

This reminds me of a Tom Holt book called "Flying Dutch". The story was about the Flying Dutchman, an immortal Dutch ship's captain and his immortal crew. They sail the seas in their 17th century sailing ship, making landfall only once every 7 years (because of The Smell). Their immortality and invulnerability come from beer mixed with an elixir stolen from an alchemist passenger.

OddHat

Jul 22nd, '03, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by Stephen Mann
This reminds me of a Tom Holt book called "Flying Dutch". The story was about the Flying Dutchman, an immortal Dutch ship's captain and his immortal crew. They sail the seas in their 17th century sailing ship, making landfall only once every 7 years (because of The Smell). Their immortality and invulnerability come from beer mixed with an elixir stolen from an alchemist passenger.

Excellent book! :)

His Expecting Someone Taller, Faust Among Equals, and Who's Afraid of Beowulf? were also very good. Any of them would make a good setting for a tongue-in-cheek Champions campaign.

McCoy

Jul 22nd, '03, 06:13 PM

So, Hermit, when do we get to see the group?

RevHooligan

Jul 22nd, '03, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by Hermit

Martial Artist- Are there many blue collar Martial Artists? Average joes who aren't into zen? I guess Dirty Infighters would be that sort. Maybe I'm missing some options here.[/B]

I once played a 15yr old crusty anarcho-punk who happened to be the re-incarnation of the last praticioner of a lost style of Kung Fu. He had great kung fu but didn't know how. Of course his grandfather (DNPC) knew but no one ever listened to him.

Originally posted by Hermit

Mystics- It's all been done. :) Prove me wrong.[/B]

The supreme mystic in my campaign is The Finn, a super-intellegent android who was told to scan a large occult library. He has since spent 60 years studing the occult and redesigning himself. Currently the world is in danger because someone hit his tower with an EMP and made off with his head (aslo the world's most complete occult database).

Originally posted by Hermit

Powered Armor- Scientific minds, and playboys often seem to be the norm. I've seen soldiers placed in suits. I don't recall many rebels here either though. After all, to get a power suit you normally have to either be part of the establishment (Wealthy member able to dictate agenda) or given suit BY the establishment ("You will be testing the..." ) . This allows for visionaries with their own agendas, or soldiers doing their duty, but the rebel seems often missing. I guess most 'rogue' Powered Armor types become default villains as likely the gear isn't legally theirs. [/B]

Previously mentioned creator of Finn was an armored hero/ gadgeteer who was a low-level employee of a big tech company. As he delivered the mail to each department, he saw how their individual projects could be combined into what became his digitally stored super armor.
He tended to build stuff first, then figure out if it was a good idea.

Oh, and the suggestion of a homosexual brick... I met this gay couple on the last train out of Grand Central one night who were HUGE! They must have met at the steroid shop or someplace. Somehow I doubt they have many problems with homophobes.

McCoy

Jul 22nd, '03, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by RevHooligan
Oh, and the suggestion of a homosexual brick... I met this gay couple on the last train out of Grand Central one night who were HUGE! They must have met at the steroid shop or someplace. Somehow I doubt they have many problems with homophobes.

Which reminds me of the badly dated pre-Reunification joke: "Is he juicing? He's got enough male hormones in his body to legally qualify as an East German woman!"

OddHat

Jul 22nd, '03, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by McCoy
Which reminds me of the badly dated pre-Reunification joke: "Is he juicing? He's got enough male hormones in his body to legally qualify as an East German woman!"

:D

The updated version:
"Is he juicing? He's got enough male hormones in his body to legally qualify as a female Chinese swimmer!"

umbra

Jul 22nd, '03, 07:19 PM

Since you all are sticking mostly to male suggestions why not make 'em all female nuns or something? Sorta like the nun character in that movie with Bruce Willis. You could still have all the different types (bricks, speedsters etc).

OddHat

Jul 22nd, '03, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by umbra
Since you all are sticking mostly to male suggestions why not make 'em all female nuns or something? Sorta like the nun character in that movie with Bruce Willis. You could still have all the different types (bricks, speedsters etc).

I like this idea. The Order of Saint Joan the Defender, a Catholic Church sponsored women's super-team.

Even in a dead serious campaign that could work.

McCoy

Jul 22nd, '03, 07:37 PM

Originally posted by OddHat
I like this idea. The Order of Saint Joan the Defender, a Catholic Church sponsored women's super-team.

Even in a dead serious campaign that could work.

One team with no distinctive features disads.

umbra

Jul 22nd, '03, 07:44 PM

You could give them all a code against killing, and have them watched by the church for disads.

OddHat

Jul 22nd, '03, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by umbra
You could give them all a code against killing, and have them watched by the church for disads.

Yes to both, plus Subject to Orders from the church heirarchy, Membership in the church as a perk, and maybe hunted by Demon or the Crowns of Krym. Psych limits like "True Faith" or "Secret Agnostic."

Works great as a rival super-team, as emergency back-up, or as victims that need rescuing. Could even work as a hunted for Supers with a Demonic origin, or as a plot hook for an adventure investigating coruption in the church.

altamaros

Jul 23rd, '03, 04:35 AM

Originally posted by Hermit
Patriot- Has anyone made a Patriot who challenges his or her own government regularly? Participating in rallies and such? I had a concept called "Defiant" that did just that. I think it was fairly original, but I could be wrong. Mind you, given the Avatar part of Patriots, anything COULD be done really.

I had the idea of a "fake" patriot for the superpowered Village People some of you helped me through a couple of months ago :

Cloudwalker is a energy projector with weather powers (lightning blasts, mist, winds ...). Visually, he is a tall winged tanned man, dressed as an indian chief with leather trousers, pearl necklace and the classical big feathered cap. (see the indian in the VP ?)
The only problem is that Cloudwalker is not a native american but a hispanic; he just happened to be at the wrong place at the worng time and an ancient force bestowed him the power (only reason of that : the force was entrapped in a indian tomb and there wasn't any native american candidate available close).

Basically, imagine some national/ethnic values having to be defended for one reason or the other by a foreigner/stranger. or someone having to defend ideals he/she doesn't belong to.

OddHat

Jul 23rd, '03, 04:45 AM

Originally posted by altamaros

Basically, imagine some national/ethnic values having to be defended for one reason or the other by a foreigner/stranger. or someone having to defend ideals he/she doesn't belong to.

Heh. :)

Picture all of the anoying American kids who spend a week in Japan and then prance around in a yukata or kimono...

Hermit

Jul 23rd, '03, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by McCoy
So, Hermit, when do we get to see the group?

Well, the full write ups and sheets won't be ready for a long time, if ever (After all, as NPCs, I don't have to count their points ;) )

But I'll try to write out some brief things (personality included) for them here if folks are actually interested.

OddHat

Jul 23rd, '03, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by Hermit
Well, the full write ups and sheets won't be ready for a long time, if ever (After all, as NPCs, I don't have to count their points ;) )

But I'll try to write out some brief things (personality included) for them here if folks are actually interested.

Heck, of course we're interested. :)

McCoy

Jul 23rd, '03, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by Hermit
But I'll try to write out some brief things (personality included) for them here if folks are actually interested.

*raises hand*

Interested. Thanks.

Doug McCrae

Jul 23rd, '03, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by altamaros
I had the idea of a "fake" patriot...

Basically, imagine some national/ethnic values having to be defended for one reason or the other by a foreigner/stranger. or someone having to defend ideals he/she doesn't belong to. That's a really good idea. Like Captain America who's really a German in WW2. Or a space alien?

Klytus

Jul 23rd, '03, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by RevHooligan
IThe supreme mystic in my campaign is The Finn, a super-intellegent android who was told to scan a large occult library. He has since spent 60 years studing the occult and redesigning himself. Currently the world is in danger because someone hit his tower with an EMP and made off with his head (aslo the world's most complete occult database).

I really love the robot/mystic mix. Normally, magic is portrayed as being anti-tech and the two just don't mix. If this doesn't turn both stereotypes on their head, I don't know what else does.

RevHooligan

Jul 23rd, '03, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by Klytus
I really love the robot/mystic mix. Normally, magic is portrayed as being anti-tech and the two just don't mix. If this doesn't turn both stereotypes on their head, I don't know what else does.

If and when my PCs retrieve the head, I'll have to decide if there was any reprogramming done. Just how mean should I be to my players?

Klytus

Jul 24th, '03, 04:36 AM

Originally posted by RevHooligan
If and when my PCs retrieve the head, I'll have to decide if there was any reprogramming done. Just how mean should I be to my players?
As a long-time GM, it is my experience that there is no such thing as being too mean to the players. :D Especially if the cruelty makes sense in context, is not arbitrary, and makes for a more interesting story.

Seraphim

Jul 24th, '03, 06:08 AM

If I remember correctly Black Bolt is one of the most powerful Energy projectors on the planet. But he dares not talk as he may destroy mountains with barely a whisper.

bcholmes

Jul 24th, '03, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by Hermit
Martial Artist- Are there many blue collar Martial Artists? Average joes who aren't into zen? I guess Dirty Infighters would be that sort. Maybe I'm missing some options here.

A martial artist whose abilities all have the special-effect of "dumb luck". Perhaps only when the character is drunk?

Or a broody martial artist with a deathwish. Tired of being one of the world's foremost martial artists, but has reflexes so well-trained that it's impossible for the character not to block incoming attacks.

Patriot- Has anyone made a Patriot who challenges his or her own government regularly? Participating in rallies and such? I had a concept called "Defiant" that did just that. I think it was fairly original, but I could be wrong. Mind you, given the Avatar part of Patriots, anything COULD be done really.

I keep thinking about doing a Captain America-like character whose values never caught up with modern era. He was the greatest soldier in WWII, and Korea. Broke up civil rights protests in the sixties. Carried hippies out of sit-in protests. Is appalled by gays and lesbians.

Powered Armor- Scientific minds, and playboys often seem to be the norm. I've seen soldiers placed in suits. I don't recall many rebels here either though. After all, to get a power suit you normally have to either be part of the establishment (Wealthy member able to dictate agenda) or given suit BY the establishment ("You will be testing the..." ) . This allows for visionaries with their own agendas, or soldiers doing their duty, but the rebel seems often missing. I guess most 'rogue' Powered Armor types become default villains as likely the gear isn't legally theirs.

"What? I'm from the 38th Century. I got my power armor at Wal-Mart!"

Speedster- Barry Allen was dedicated, a serious scientists; Wally West has been portrayed as a fun loving youth, later Womanizer, before settling down a bit more seriously. Quicksilver is usually cranky (The man wants his cheeseburger-today!). Are there any mellow laid back speedsters? The sort who take their time? I don't recall many, probably because in the comics we WANT to see a speedster zip around. I maybe missing one though.

I've always thought that Lightning from the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents had a neat twist on being a Speedster. He ages super-fast when he uses his super-speed, so he uses it sparingly.

BCing you

Dr. Anomaly

Jul 24th, '03, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by bcholmes
"What? I'm from the 38th Century. I got my power armor at Wal-Mart!"
[*twitch*]

Wal-Mart? Still around 1700 years from now?

[*twitch*] [*twitch*]

AAAAAARRRRRGGGHHHH!!!!

Killer Shrike

Jul 25th, '03, 03:02 AM

Originally posted by Doug McCrae
I think you're right. Brick is toughest because they've all been done. The best you can hope for might be one that hasn't be done as much.

The Kid. This is a team personality type, represented by Iceman, the Human Torch or Kitty Pryde. I can't think of a brick exemplar. Or go further and have a brick that actually is a child, like 8 years old or something, but on a team of (or at least looked after by) adult superheroes? Now that would be a menace. Rage from the New Warriors/Avengers was a kid brick. He looked like a grown man, but was either a pre-teen or in the low teens.

Originally posted by Doug McCrae
What about a brick with a nerdy Woody Allenish persona? He might lose his nerdiness now he can shove people around.

I had the same thought, but thats kind of the Hulk, really.

Doug McCrae

Jul 25th, '03, 03:02 AM

Dr. Anomaly: That was a big 'Aaargh'. Talk about Black Bolt.

Doug McCrae

Jul 25th, '03, 03:07 AM

Originally posted by Seraphim
If I remember correctly Black Bolt is one of the most powerful Energy projectors on the planet. But he dares not talk as he may destroy mountains with barely a whisper. Cyclops and Black Bolt are kind of a similar idea, aren't they? One can't look, the other can't speak, for fear of destroying everything.

What about a 'brick' so powerful he can't move for fear of destroying the fabric of space-time? Or a psychic so powerful he can't *think*? If he does, our brains will explode.

Killer Shrike

Jul 25th, '03, 03:29 AM

Originally posted by Dog Soldier
Powered Armor guy that discovers sentient armor rather like the sentient armor of Iron Man (one of my favorite comic series) The armor needs a user and an ordinary blue-collar working man that's down on his luck fits the bill just fine. The new user is bitter about the failure in his personal life and the armor makes it easy for him to get even and get ahead. When the heroes finally encounter him and the armor he may be terrified of the armor but also totally dependant on it. The armor comes with a full set of technical specs and the user is skilled enough at the mechanics of iot that he can keep it going. Of course acquiring funds is easy for an amoral AI in the armor with his weak willed accomplice. This is kind of sorta X-O Manowar by Valiant. Aric of Dacia was a Visigoth warring on Rome who got snatched up by a Spider-Alien ship who use human beings for foodstock, and then tanks to relativity and stasis pods, he's still around in our time, having passed about a decade subjectively. When he escapes the Spider Alien ship he accidentally dons the control ring for an X-O suit of techno-organic armor, the most sophisticated military hardware the Spider-Aliens have. He destroys the ship and returns to Earth, but in our time. He has the mentality of a barbarian and thinks of the armor as "the good-skin". He uses the "good-skin" to wreak revenge on the Spider-Aliens that have infiltrated human society. The cool thing about X-O Manowar was that he had this super-high-tech armor, but he fought with the mentality of a barbarian. He'd constantly eschew his blasters to get down-and-dirty with the opposition. And he had a penchant for swords. His blasters could level a building, but he'd pull a claymore of his suit and start hacking things. He was also difficult to deal with even by other "heroes". He was really standoffish and arrogant, and had a very prickly sense of honor. Its like "Whoah big guy; no offense!!!!!" as he'd misconstrue modernisms that didnt jive with his world view.

Markdoc

Jul 25th, '03, 03:52 AM

Personally, I love "anti-stereotype" characters.

Some I've done include:

Blue collar martial artists:

Max Maximum - the Jamaican man-mountain. A martial artist whose style was wrestling, spiced up WWF style.

Geordie du Beque - martial artist from the Glasgow slums - he gets by on general toughness and uncanny good luck rather than a mastery of Ki :-)

Valiant! - a brick type with a nerdy base personality: his quirk is that he can transform into a brick (all powers are OIHID) - but that his Hero form considers his "normal form" a hopeless loser and his normal form considers the Hero form a dangerous psychopath who's going to get them both killed... (I admit I lifted the idea at least in part from the Miracle Man series).

I have also done the "machine mystic" shtick, with a seven-armed, spellcasting robot - but again can't claim too much originality: I just fused Spiral (from the X-men) with Deadlock (from ABC warriors)

cheers, Mark

Killer Shrike

Jul 25th, '03, 04:50 AM

OK, quick note: I HATE THEME GROUPS. I find them contrived and silly. However, just some cross-stereotype ideas:

I find it a little unimaginative to just reverse polarities on archetypes; too simple and self-referential. Think of Baron Munchausen (the movie), it kind of pokes fun at this; youve got the "I want to be dainty" feminine hulking brick, the lazy speedster, the super hearing guy that has to use an ear horn, the hawk-eyed sniper that needs thick glasses. They're cariacatures basically.

Having said that, here are some attempts at stereotype busters:

Bricks: The stereotypical brick is big, often but not always hulking. They are strong and tough, and usually good brawlers. Archetypical bricks include the Hulk (Berserker), Thing (Monstrous), Superman (Paragon), Shaw (Absorber), Juggernaught (Mystic), Thor (God). Some clever variations have included the idea of superstrength as a function of TK, and most of the Superman imitators tend to fall into this category. Power set aside, I dont think there is a real common stereotypical personality to be found there, aside from a certain confidence all of them share engendered by the knowledge that very few things can hurt them. However, the perception of many people is that bricks are steadfast, stalwart, cocksure, and dependible. You know where a brick is coming from, and few of them move so fast you cant see where they are going. As a twist on this, what about a brick that is unreliable, inconsistent, random.

Im thinking a character with attenuated powers, heavy activations, maybe even a partially NCC VPP of powers that changes from day to day. A character that is not in complete control of thier powers. Since a brick is supposed to get in close and pound things, this randomness would force such a character to jump thru all sorts of hoops and employ all sort of innovative tactics to compensate for thier unreliableness. In the HERO System such a character would be frighteningly fragile on some occasions, and terrifyingly powerful on others (due to the characters powers having low RC's).

Along the same lines, a Nuerotic brick might be interesting; totally unpredictible and prone to "enrages".

Check out Steeljack from Astro City (one of my favorite characters) for a brick suffering from apathy and depression. At one point he just lies down and lets someone pound on him until they get tired and leave rather than fight back. The human punching bag, morose and uncaring might be an interesting brick. Kind of a Thing-Marvin cross ;)

Martial Artists are typically aggressive perfectionists or koan zen-spouting philosophers. Then youve got the pop-culture insta-kung fu master who get all the kewl tricks without all the meditation and study. And of course my favorite the scrappers who just know how to fight without all the fancy shmancy theory; apply fist to jaw, repeat. The basic idea however is that a MA is up close like a brick but quick and dodgy like a speedster and sometimes spooky and otherworldly like a Mystic or Mentalist. Personally, I see MAs as more of a meta-archetype than a full on archetype, as they are basically a combination of differing degrees of other archetypes. Same with Patriots. Personality wise however MAs are percieved to be skilled, dedicated, finesse based. THe obviousl tact is to just reverse that, but theres got to be something better than going the anti-typical stoner route or the reluctant samurai route.

Im thinking a MA that is driven to fight even though he has no real desire to do so. His survival instinct drives him to do it, like the guy in Armour by Steakley. Maybe he's addicted to fighting, like many of the dudes in Golden Harvest productions seem to be. With a literal Dependence on Fighting; if he doesnt fight he gets ill, or suffers severe pain. An OIHID MA possessed by the Spirit of a warrior (or warriors) may be fierce in battle thanx to the spirits riding him, but Accidental Changes back to a norm if he refuses a fight or doesnt fight every so often. A MA might run all of his powers off of an END pool with a REC that only works in combat. Etc.

Blasters are ranged combatants usually, but also usually have a wider range of manipulation abilities, or some speedster aspects via flight. Any chump can throw something or use a gun; a blaster is more than that -- either by virtue of severity or broader capabilities. Blaster are usually aloof, keeping distance between themselves and others. They tend to be direct, as thier powers are usually focused, and they tend to have a wider view of whats going on, leading to many blasters to also be in leadership positions. Blasters tend be good for a big directed hit and tend to be very precise.

From a personality standpoint, what about an blaster that is more of an absentminded professor, focusing on the scientific applications of his/her power, and not combat oriented at all. The hotheaded blaster has been done to death, but what about a blaster that is indecisive, or worse indiscriminant, or emotional in a not-usefule way, like easily frightened. Of course you could always do the old EBer that wants to be a brick, or EBer that acts like a MA kind of deal, but what about going hyper-exaggerated and making a Blaster whose got an inferiority/perfectionist attitude about his powers; always second guessing himself and "replaying" encounters, pestering other teammembers for analytical assessments on what he should have shot instead, whether he should have used more or less force, or a different blast effect; how can he improve himself, etc....annoying but funny ;)

Mentalist are usually serious and sonorous. And bald. Unless they are hot chicks, in which case they have red or purple hair :rolleyes:. Mentalists tend to be sit back and think things thru types, taking fewer actions but opting for more inobviouse tacts often. The obvious and easy anti here is the impulsive mentalist, who favors ego blast over Telepathy, but lets go deeper than that. Personality wise, mentalists tend to be indecisive if they dont have all the facts; used to having access to massive amounts of info by way of ESP and Telepathy, they NEED that info to make decisions.They tend to come off as wallflowers, collecting data and watching before making a move. What about an aggressive mentalist that does the opposite; forces others to react to him, with a Darkness vs mental awarness, Danger Sense, and Lighting Reflexes and/or a high dex & DCV coupled with an Abort heavy Martial art set ("How can you fight me when I already know what you are going to do?"), Various Analyzes, Find Weakness, Sense Vulnerability Discrim Analyze, and a variable SFX EB defined as "potent mental illusions" tunable to whatever they are vulnerable to (pilfered from thier minds via the custom detect)....basically a practical-application mentalist (with aspects of MA/Speedster) with a hard-nosed can do attitude, impatient type-a personality.

Mystics are pretty done, but personality wise youve got the learned master, cocky apprentice, and path-of-least-resistance-leads-to-evil archetypes in just about any mystic scenario. The Jedi schtick does about as good of a job as any playing to that stereotype. Parodys of this abound, with the incompetant master, bumbling apprentice, and so on. For a personality againt type, how about a mystic master that tries to debunk magic; he studies it and manipulates it, but all the while he is catalouging, categorizing, and applying the scientific method to it. He might even go so far as to cross into gadgeteer-land, building tech-like gadgets that exploit a "mystic law" in a reliable & consitent fashion. Howabout a Mystic that is really not a mystic at all, but instead has some actual mutant power or superhuman ability that they hide as "magic" -- kind of a twist on the charlatan fortune teller bit. Or a powered individual with powers that are influenced by thier hardcore superstition but which are not actually mystical in the slightest, like Tarot of the Hellions or Fortunato of Wildcards.

The Speedster: of course, the lazy speedster is a popular anti-twist. However, lets look at some of the other elements of the speedster. Recently, I played a speedster who was literally hyperactive and hypertense; a real spaz case, like bobcat goldthwait on speed.....more speed. Some characters have the power of a speedster, but dont playout as such, like Superman and his many clones; Samaritan from Astro City kind of pokes fun at this; he's way faster than anyone else around, but he's thought of as a flying brick. Speedsters tend towards the rushed, the impatient, the hyperactive, and the impulsive. What about a speedster who is instead a thinker; a brilliant scientist able to use his hyper-speed to duplicate experiments normally done in a lab might be interesting. Or what about a super-tactician who used thier super-fast thinking to effectively deduce the logical outcome of all actions; a speedster fortune teller. Or what about a speedster with no real offensive capability; in power terms hes actually Desolid, with 10 to 15 STR Affects Physical, and instead uses his speed in a support role, saving civilians, catching knockbacked heroes, maybe even with a Healing ability (accelerates the recipients natural healing process) -- instead of the usual in-the-thick-of-things 1st-one-on-the-scene speedster, youve got a background hugging super-doc with a Hypocratic Oath obsession.

Just some ideas......:D

Doug McCrae

Jul 25th, '03, 06:00 AM

Originally posted by Markdoc
Geordie du Beque - martial artist from the Glasgow slums - he gets by on general toughness and uncanny good luck rather than a mastery of Ki :-)'du Beque' would be an unusual surname in the Glasgow slums, to say the least.

Doug McCrae

Jul 25th, '03, 06:05 AM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
You know where a brick is coming from, and few of them move so fast you cant see where they are going. As a twist on this, what about a brick that is unreliable, inconsistent, random.

Im thinking a character with attenuated powers, heavy activations, maybe even a partially NCC VPP of powers that changes from day to day.That's a really good idea (preceded by a really good analysis). I think I might just apply the randomness to their strength and toughness though, otherwise they really stop being a brick.

There's only one character I can think of like this... Captain Caveman!

Supreme

Jul 25th, '03, 07:58 AM

Got to get right back to deep space, so I haven't got time to read all the posts. Great topic, Hermit!

My immediate thoughts:

The most common brick type is the dumb brute. But, as you said there are so many types. The one I haven't seen, personally, is the mentally unstable brute. By "unstable" I mean one that lives in a quasi-fugue state like Quasiman from Wild Cards or something. I realize that many would call the Hulk's classic Jeckyl and Hyde personality unstable, and it is. However, I'm talking about a single personality that is not always quite... there.

Blue Collar MAs are VERY rare. They are usually very stiff, disciplined types because of the training they're expected to have undergone. When I made my own "ultimate" MA character recently, I made him deliberately against such type. The "Iron Cricket" was someone who had his MA "downloaded" by a mystical means. He was not the originally intended recipient. Now he has a host of moral expectations put on him by the organization that had hopes of producing a truly great hero. They constantly challenge him to stay on the straight and narrow, while he challenges their ideas about free will and heroism. Iron Cricket's demeanor is one of the bon vivant type, like the Blue Beetle.

My biggest beef with the way MAs are so often played is that people think that only exotic locales, such as Southern Asia are fit places for super-types to study martial arts. Hasn't anyone ever heard of boxing? How about wrestling? How about gymnastics? HERO's current system of martial arts is simply the best I've ever seen in over 20 years of RPGing. It's incredibly flexible.

That's all I've got for now.

Dog Soldier

Jul 25th, '03, 08:19 AM

The American Tae Kwon Do Association (http://www.ataonline.com) headquarters is in Little Rock, Arkansas. Why not a "good ole boy" martial Artist? I know I've got some in the school that I train and instruct at:D

Supreme

Jul 25th, '03, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by Dog Soldier
The American Tae Kwon Do Association (http://www.ataonline.com) headquarters is in Little Rock, Arkansas. Why not a "good ole boy" martial Artist? I know I've got some in the school that I train and instruct at:D
Another example of my point about Asian-only martial arts...
;)
Hey, here's a personality type that never gets used for male super-heroes: effeminate!
"My word, Dr. Destroyer! That armor is SO 80s!"

Dog Soldier

Jul 25th, '03, 10:07 AM

One of my friends in college was a gay guy that was HUGE! 6'4" about 240# and as swishy as he could be. He got inot lots of fights and seemed to enjoy getting hit. :rolleyes:

Supreme

Jul 25th, '03, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by Dog Soldier
One of my friends in college was a gay guy that was HUGE! 6'4" about 240# and as swishy as he could be. He got inot lots of fights and seemed to enjoy getting hit. :rolleyes:
Sounds like Hooded Justice.

Madstone

Jul 26th, '03, 10:45 AM

A few ideas...

For the martial artist, a thinker type. He was never actually trained in martial arts, has no specific knowledge of them, but he's an incredibly smart predictor and can counter anything coming in because he saw it about to happen. It would focus on defense, with a NND strikes and find weakness. "It was simply the most logical place to strike him."

Energy blaster--here's a conundrum. Cyclops is often seen as the prototypical energy blaster, but powers wise i think he's definitely atypical. I would love to see more energy blasters whose only power is an energy blast. No flight, no force fields, no energy manipulation, just the blast.

For gadgeteer, I've been tinkering with a Junkyard Wars inspired hero. Junkyard has no fine skills, his gadgets are huge, clunky, and a maximum of three charges, usually with some activation roll. But he can create anything in ten hours. :)

For the brick, what about someone who feels the pain? S/he takes no actual damage, but getting hit still hurts like hell.

For the atypical mentalist, a con-man.

I might come up with more given sleep and Coca Cola.

Dog Soldier

Jul 26th, '03, 10:57 AM

I think you may have created new archetypes. A Martial Artist, well, s/he studies Martial Art. Someone that doesn't train but relies on some "knack" for fighting may be very effective but that's not a Martial Artist. Gadgets are defined as handy devices, that's what gadgeteers make. Huge, kludgey "Junkyard Wars" things aren't very handy. Again, this would be a new sort of archtype. Interesting:D

tmutant

Jul 27th, '03, 11:13 AM

How about a brick who is a coward? The screwball comedy kind of coward. He knows that he is hard to hurt, but is terrified that he is going to run into something that his defenses aren't up to handling. He avoids fighting where ever possible, tries to get others in the group to fight while he stays and answers the phone, and generally fights like Bob Hope, ducking, running and dodging rather than hitting.:D

Mentalist idea from Wild Cards: The guy was revived after dieing. Now he can project the memory of that death so powerfully that it stops the heart of the victim. He also cannot die. Even after decapitation he was regenerating. They cremated the remains, but aren't really sure that he won't grow back from the ashes. Creepy.

bcholmes

Jul 27th, '03, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by Crisis
Energy blaster--here's a conundrum. Cyclops is often seen as the prototypical energy blaster, but powers wise i think he's definitely atypical. I would love to see more energy blasters whose only power is an energy blast. No flight, no force fields, no energy manipulation, just the blast.

<p>Oooo. That reminds me of Tempest from the second ('70s) Doom Patrol. That's all he could do. Really massive EB. Didn't like to use it.

Supreme

Jul 28th, '03, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by tmutant
Mentalist idea from Wild Cards: The guy was revived after dieing. Now he can project the memory of that death so powerfully that it stops the heart of the victim. He also cannot die. Even after decapitation he was regenerating. They cremated the remains, but aren't really sure that he won't grow back from the ashes. Creepy.
The character's name was Demise, IIRC.

MarkusDark

Jul 28th, '03, 08:41 AM

I once played an ancient Earth Elemental who wielded a light saber and was a Trekkie. Does that count as breaking the mold? :)

As he had been 'asleep' for eons, the group decided that the best way to get him up to speed on the 20th century was to sit him in front of a TV. Unfortunately, there was a Star Trek marathon going on...

Supreme

Jul 28th, '03, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by MarkusDark
I once played an ancient Earth Elemental who wielded a light saber and was a Trekkie. Does that count as breaking the mold? :)
As he had been 'asleep' for eons, the group decided that the best way to get him up to speed on the 20th century was to sit him in front of a TV. Unfortunately, there was a Star Trek marathon going on...
I believe Hermit was after breaking personality stereotypes for various super-hero archetypes. Your character idea is a break from the archetypes.

Here's another personality-type/archetype mismatch that I haven't seen before: the jokester Patriot. My current GA character is such a character. He likes to tell jokes and hurl insults at the villains to get them to lose their cool.

Killer Shrike

Jul 28th, '03, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by Supreme
The character's name was Demise, IIRC. If its Demise dont look in his eyes.

Massive Ego Attack Does Body Requires Eye Contact, Massive Regenerate Regrow Ressurect, and a big PsyLim "Fatalistic", with lots of Unluck too.

Wild Cards is a great source for counter-types, 3-dimensional villains (that unlike in comics sometimes win big), and heros with clay feet. :D

Killer Shrike

Jul 28th, '03, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by bcholmes
<p>Oooo. That reminds me of Tempest from the second ('70s) Doom Patrol. That's all he could do. Really massive EB. Didn't like to use it. And Cyclops's younger brother aka Havok. Same deal. Big nasty RKA Line, no fine control and no other real powers.

Killer Shrike

Jul 28th, '03, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by Supreme
Sounds like Hooded Justice. That sounds familiar. Was that from the series with all the screwed up "heroes" and thier more screwed up sidekicks?

Killer Shrike

Jul 28th, '03, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by Dog Soldier
I think you may have created new archetypes. A Martial Artist, well, s/he studies Martial Art. Someone that doesn't train but relies on some "knack" for fighting may be very effective but that's not a Martial Artist. Gadgets are defined as handy devices, that's what gadgeteers make. Huge, kludgey "Junkyard Wars" things aren't very handy. Again, this would be a new sort of archtype. Interesting:D Karnak of the Inhumans is similar to the former, and there was a character from X-Men 2099 similar to the second, although he wasnt so much a gadgeteer as a brick. He rebuilt his body with spare parts IIRC. His name may even have been Junkyard. Just about unkillable IIRC.

However, both of the ideas still fall with in the MA and Gadgeteer archetypes. The archetypes define the concept/ends, not the means. A shift dodgy toe-to-toe fighter is still an MA regardless of thier schtick. A dude that makes gadgets, magic items, taskable programs, whatever is still a gadgeteer. Reasoning from effect and all that....

Lupus

Jul 28th, '03, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
That sounds familiar. Was that from the series with all the screwed up "heroes" and thier more screwed up sidekicks? If I remember correctly, Hooded Justice was from Watchmen. One of the old mystery men.

I can't remember him having a schtick like that, though - enjoying getting beaten up, that is. There was, however, someone that two of the heroes talked about, who took on a villain persona in order to get beaten up. The female member said that she gave up fighting him when she realised that he was breathing heavily.

Killer Shrike

Jul 28th, '03, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by Supreme
My biggest beef with the way MAs are so often played is that people think that only exotic locales, such as Southern Asia are fit places for super-types to study martial arts. Hasn't anyone ever heard of boxing? How about wrestling? How about gymnastics? HERO's current system of martial arts is simply the best I've ever seen in over 20 years of RPGing. It's incredibly flexible.

There's even been some talk that Oriental Martial Arts were influenced/inspired by Greek pankration, spread by the armies of Alexander the Great into the middle east and from there trickled into India and China. Who knows?

But yeah, MAs can be ANYTHING from Ancient Shaolin Solar Sun Stance types to Begby-esque bar room scrappers to palookas to just naturally talented fighters. Its whatever you want it to be. Ive always had a lot of fun with the MAs in the HERO System; I think its the best system for representing MAs that Ive ever run across; much better than Ninja's and Superspies frex IMO.

Doug McCrae

Jul 28th, '03, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by Supreme
Here's another personality-type/archetype mismatch that I haven't seen before: the jokester Patriot.Nice one.

Doug McCrae

Jul 28th, '03, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by MarkusDark
I once played an ancient Earth Elemental who wielded a light saber and was a Trekkie.And people say there are no new ideas.

Killer Shrike

Jul 28th, '03, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by Lupus
If I remember correctly, Hooded Justice was from Watchmen. One of the old mystery men.

I can't remember him having a schtick like that, though - enjoying getting beaten up, that is. There was, however, someone that two of the heroes talked about, who took on a villain persona in order to get beaten up. The female member said that she gave up fighting him when she realised that he was breathing heavily. No, that wouldnt be what Im thinking of. There was a short series of dark comics about a bunch of really messed up "heroes" and the psychological damage they inflicted on string of sidekicks. One of the characters was a Batman-like avenger of the night who was also a homosexual pedophile; his sidekick was his catamite. Another was a femnazi man-hater; she pulled a great expectations mind-screw with her young impressionable sidekick, turning her to manipulate and hate all men. Another was a tweaker speedster with a flying car who hopped his sidekick up on amphetamines and put him on a flying skateboard to fight crime. And finally another was a Punisher like character that wore a hood that was kind of wink wink like a KKK mask (except it was black), and he was a diehard genocidal bigot with some S&M elements suggested IIRC -- thats the one I thought might be Hooded Justice.

Very strange series. Ill be damned if I can remember the name of it.....Sidekicks maybe?

Killer Shrike

Jul 28th, '03, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by Crisis
Energy blaster--here's a conundrum. Cyclops is often seen as the prototypical energy blaster, but powers wise i think he's definitely atypical. I would love to see more energy blasters whose only power is an energy blast. No flight, no force fields, no energy manipulation, just the blast.

All excellent ideas Crisis. For a focused blaster character without the usual Multipower of EB, Flight, FF I direct you to:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6160&perpage=20&pagenumber=3#Rebound

Oruncrest

Jul 28th, '03, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Karnak of the Inhumans is similar to the former, and there was a character from X-Men 2099 similar to the second, although he wasnt so much a gadgeteer as a brick. He rebuilt his body with spare parts IIRC. His name may even have been Junkyard. Just about unkillable IIRC.

His name was Junkpile. He's a Mutant whose powers enabled him to create replacements for missing body parts with... junk. Every time someone shot off an arm or a leg, his powers would assemble a new one from whatever scrap metal was available. Eventually, he ran out of 'meat' to replace and is all metal now.
By the way, Junkpile was a Brick. In fact, he held the Juggernaught role in X-Men 2099: the evil 'brother' of the team founder who wants to do in said founder and can take anything the X-Men can throw at him.

Old Man

Jul 28th, '03, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
There was a short series of dark comics about a bunch of really messed up "heroes" and the psychological damage they inflicted on string of sidekicks. .... Ill be damned if I can remember the name of it.....Sidekicks maybe?

Sounds like Brat Pack to me, but it may have been done more than once. I can't remember most of the details of the series.

Killer Shrike

Jul 28th, '03, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by Old Man
Sounds like Brat Pack to me, but it may have been done more than once. I can't remember most of the details of the series. Brat Pack......yeah, that may have been it.

OddHat

Jul 28th, '03, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by Old Man
Sounds like Brat Pack to me, but it may have been done more than once. I can't remember most of the details of the series.

Was this the one where all of the supers had regeneration based on a blood transfusion from the "Superman" of the setting? Ends with "Superman" returning from space and draining the life force back out of all the "heroes?"

Good and very twisted series. I remember the first book of the prequel, with the infant "Superman" acting like a normal infant, throwing temper tantrums and growing up to be an (almost) uncontrolable monster. Never got the rest of the books.

Killer Shrike

Jul 28th, '03, 08:05 PM

I think only the pedophile Batman clone had gained a limited Regeneration via a Blood transfusion from the superman -- they had been lovers at one point IIRC. The Batman dude gave transfusions to his sidekicks, but it was diluted/not as good. In fact, I think his prior sidekick got caught in a bomb and blown to hell and gone along with the other previous crop of sidekicks, and his weak regen kept him alive, but horribly messed up and hideous.

OddHat

Jul 28th, '03, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
I think only the pedophile Batman clone had gained a limited Regeneration via a Blood transfusion from the superman -- they had been lovers at one point IIRC. The Batman dude gave transfusions to his sidekicks, but it was diluted/not as good. In fact, I think his prior sidekick got caught in a bomb and blown to hell and gone along with the other previous crop of sidekicks, and his weak regen kept him alive, but horribly messed up and hideous.

Maybe so. It's been a long time. :)

I can't see anyone trying to run that as a campaign. :eek:

Killer Shrike

Jul 28th, '03, 08:33 PM

Well, youve gotta admit, its a unique Origin at least :)

RevHooligan

Jul 28th, '03, 08:44 PM

It is Bratpack you're thinking of. It was done by Rick Vietch and caused a bit of controversy when it came out as some didn't see it for the parody of goldenage sidekickery that it was.

Sidekickery. I like the sound of that. Sidekickery Sidekickery Sidekickery.

Sorry.

Hermit

Jul 28th, '03, 10:08 PM

I'll edit this more later, but here you go, a brief synopsis of each personality of (hopefully) personality sterotype breaking NPC hero group- The Fringe! I'm sure folks will see pretty clearly on many of them where I took your collective ideas for the inspiration. Thanks again ;)

Ajax (brick): Adam Jackson, aka Ajax is one of those lucky few who had Kelverite blow up in his face, but in a good way. Before his transformation into a muscle bound behemoth of a man, Adam was quite the nerd. So much so, that he can't understand why folks think of cleaning products rather than greek myths when they hear his super hero name. He still is quite the geek; able to debate for hours over which Trek captain was best, which movies jumped the shark, and the value of Linux over windows and why AOL is the devil. Despite taking the name of such a formidible warrior, Ajax still forgets sometimes that he's super powered now. With the majority of his life spent suffering taunts, wedgies, and being stuffed into a locker; his instincts prefer flight over fight. There are exceptions, of course; he won't leave his teammates behind, and, well, there was that one time they had to pull him off Bulldozer when the villain tore up his Seeker #17!

Quote: "Man, that thing is even bigger than the worm in the Empire Strikes Back, which, if you ask me, was the best of the trilogy..."

Southpaw (Energy Projector): Lou Macken is an average joe. Oh, he made the shot at bigger dreams, but like many people, they never came to pass. While a good pitcher, he never made the majors. Now, he works the wrecking ball with a small time company and plays pool in his free time. He's taking the strange alteration to his left hand well, and the fact it can shoot kinetic energy is, as far as he's concerned, just another tool. He's laconic where other heroes bluster or brag, and is more concerned with accuracy than firepower. Southpaw is probably the most pragmatic of the bunch. Hell, he's only doing this stupid hero thing for his family. They deserve a better neighborhood, so he's working on cleaning up the whole city.

Quote: "That's the target? Got it."

Boomstick(Gadgeteer): Like many other gadgeteering heroes, Dana Deborah Tweedmeer has a gift for technology. However, her reasons for being a superhero have little to do with some grand techno-utopian vision. While she DOES find science wonderful, and enjoys creating devices; mostly she just likes blowing #$#% up. Nothing appeals to her more than using her latest invention to smack the some evil doer across the street. The great thing about such villains is they're remarkably durable, and unlike lab animals, you don't feel guilty when you inject them! The brilliant young woman excells in physics, chemistry and engineering. Her superhero name comes from her favorite device, the "boomstick" a tube like rod she can carry in one hand,yet has more fire power than some tank shells and is far more versitile besides. She worships Bruce Campbell, but sadly he's yet to have the courts lift the restraining order that keeps her at least a mile away from his home. While a Canadian citizen, Dana does most of her superheroing in the USA.

Quote: " I LOVE the smell of Science in the morning!"

Triumph formerly "Kid Triumph"(Martial Artist): Hit with the experimental "perfection beam" while snooping in a WW2 military project, young Billy Baxter ended up at the height of physical perfection. He was soon dubbed "Kid Triumph" and was made the sidekick to "Major Victory!". Billy was trained in hand to hand combat and given various gimmick devices to use in his personal arsenal against villainry. They fought the good fight during the golden age, when the Major died nobly sacrificing himself on the back of a rocket. Billy was devastated. The government spun the sacrifice for all it's worth, then the communist scare hit, and the sidekick found other golden age heroes brought up before hearings during McCarthy inspired paranoia. He would have been up on charges himself except, he was still a kid. Somehow that 'perfection beam' had slowed his aging. Billy soon realized that it also made all that excercise stuff unnecessary, after all, how are you going to get better than 'perfect' anyways? So screw it. Triumph has finally aged to legal adult hood, and if not for the Fringe, would be drinking and chasing women 24/7. He still keeps his hands in studying martial arts, but only the practical application. To him, there's no damn difference between "monkey steals the peach" and "nail the villain in his groin hard." While he seems not to care about much anymore, even now that he's over his disillusionment about the US govt; the truth is Billy has a romantic side. One he dares not express. He loses himself in mindless pleasure because a meaningful relationship with a guy who ages super slow can only lead in tragedy. #$#$$ that.

Quote: "You made me drop my beer. MInd you, it wasn't a good beer... but that's neither here nor there. You're still getting your butt kicked."

Mentaur (mentalist): From the area of space occupied by the constellation we call Taurus, N'shok De'ro's people are "psychically very well endowed". When N'shok ended up marooned on Earth, he made the best of it. He learned English from deep probes, and curbed some violence via mental domination. To this day, Mentaur doesn't see anything wrong with using his "Creator given senses" as long as he doesn't over ride the free will of a non-criminal. Indeed, the hairy alien is very proactive and often forgets to ask permission before reading or sending thoughts. He stops crimes before they even happen... that sort of thing. One the reverse side however, Mentaur can be quite kind in helping curb nightmares, or aiding people to fix phobias or addictions. Quite aware of his own physical fragility, he tries to always take the inititive in battle before his foe can retaliate.

Quote: (thought)"You want me to stop using telepathy in public as it MIGHT offend? Tell me, when among the blind, do you gore out your eyes?"

Makura (metamorph): Physically she is most often two dimensional, but the shed shadow of a demon is anything but humorous. Jude created her accidentally with a variation of a spell that is meant to turn one's shadow against one's self. Since it was a demon and not a mortal being she was ripped from, she turned out being somewhat "good" to its evil, or at the very least, not that bad. Cool, seemingly compasionless, Makura can slash with her razor thin extremities from across the room, and if not for the others insistance, might do so more often. Things traditionally of light-laughter, joy, kindness, are a mystery to her; perhaps even painful. Yet, Makura realizes that without these alien traits, the team would have turned her over long ago back to her previous owner or banished her entirely. Thus, she studies this, hoping to learn their worth.

Quote: (an intense glare and narrowing of slit eyes in her shadowy form)

Jude (mystic): A devout man who believes the magics he practices could lead to his damnation if he is not careful, the mystic of the team seeks to save the innocent from the supernatural world that is all too eager to devour them. Except for his crucifix, there is nothing about his spandexed costume that looks particularly mystical- Which is how he intends it. He dreads the thought of encouraging that which he must fight. He is particularly versed in demonology, for those are his most prevelent foes. Of course, the more he learns of the dark arts, the more he endangers his own soul. Truly, stemming the dark tide (both within and without) seems a lost cause, but then, like his patron Saint, Jude specializes in lost causes.

Quote: "I have found the demon's name my friends, the pentagram is set, and we shall soon bring the beast to our lair, but first... let us pray."

Informer (Patriot): Informer does indeed have red, white, and blue in her costume. However, folks rarely see the costume, or her for that matter. She can go invisible easily and seems capable of staying that way all day if need be. Informer lives up to her name, making sure the truth gets out anyway she can. The government has had more than one shadey deal exposed to light, and would see her as anything but a patriot. However, that's how Informer sees herself. Without the facts, how can a democracy survive? She's blunt, tactless, and above all, brutally honest in almost all things except perhaps her own story. Informer doesn't talk about how she got her powers, but she'll happily explain to you which of your political reps are corrupt, and which ones are just harmless cross dressers.

Quote: "Somehow I don't think Whiplash will be staying in jail long. The D.A. loves women in leather... if you know what I mean?"

Destructmaster Z (Powered Armor): Toby Kendall possesses some of the most powerful alien tech ever to fall to Earth. It is attuned to him now, and summonable from sub space by his very will. He loves to test the "suit" to it's max, and has gotten quite good at it. Destructmaster Z (D.Z. for short) loves to rocket rings around less agile fliers. D.Z. is the glory hound of the group, and hotdogs every chance he gets. Rampant speculation goes on about what he looks like under that armor, but no one has yet guessed that Toby is only 13 years old. There are days he could just bust with the secret, but if the others found out, they might not let him hang with them- and duking it out side by side with super heroes is a lot cooler than English.

Quote: "Hey, loser...ready to go a few rounds with the king o' chrome? Nah, you just THINK you are..."

Whirl (speedster): A spinning top type speedster. The world seems still to Whirl, and the inequity between her near constant motion and the world's lethargic response threatened to destroy her sanity. Fortunately, years ago, someone recommended meditation to the young mutant. Now, a student of Zen and other philosphies, Whirl almost always thinks things through, and seeks harmony. After all, when one moves as fast as she does, one can afford to consider all perspectives, not just the 360 she'd be physically limited to.

Quote: "This very violence you perform is merely a symptom of stagnation within."

Cutter (weaponmaster): Cutter's personality is changing all the time, but that's because only one half of that personality is constant. Cutter is a sword; what type depends in part on the wielder, for it has some shapechanging abilities. One day it might be a two handed monstrosity, the next a slim rapier. Even as a person hold the blade, the blade holds them. It grants the wielder supernatural skill with itself. The sword seems to be jovial, a joker as well as a warrior, and this (along with a desire to be a 'good guy') always infects its wielder/host as well. Beyond that, anything is possible. Exactly who made the sword originally, and for what purpose is unknown... though Cutter has complained bitterly to the rest of the team about spending time in the bottom of a British lake for WAY too long.

Quote: "Call me Cutter. Heck, you're cute enough... call me when you get out on parole."

OddHat

Jul 29th, '03, 03:29 AM

<clap><clap><clap>! With a special round of aplause for Jude (wo I hope was an ordained priest or at least a seminary student before gaining his powers) and Cutter!

RevHooligan

Jul 29th, '03, 07:10 AM

These are all very well done! I like Jude and Destructmaster the best. Great names!

I like Informer's concept and story, but the name had primarily negative connotations. Whistleblowers tell on big institutions, informers tell on the little guy to the authorities.

Of course there's no white Canadian Reggae song called Whistleblower, so what do I know.

Supreme

Jul 29th, '03, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
That sounds familiar. Was that from the series with all the screwed up "heroes" and thier more screwed up sidekicks?
Hooded Justice is from "The Watchmen."
[post-edit]
Just read your post on the ultra-whack pedophile comic. NO IDEA what comic that is, but the Hooded Justice I was referring to was from Watchmen.

McCoy

Jul 29th, '03, 07:22 AM

Hermit, thank you. Sounds like an interesting mix.

Supreme

Jul 29th, '03, 07:25 AM

Originally posted by Lupus
If I remember correctly, Hooded Justice was from Watchmen. One of the old mystery men.

I can't remember him having a schtick like that, though - enjoying getting beaten up, that is. There was, however, someone that two of the heroes talked about, who took on a villain persona in order to get beaten up. The female member said that she gave up fighting him when she realised that he was breathing heavily.
If you read the in-story letters and such at the end of each chapter in the Watchmen (or in the back of each issue, if you're collecting the comics) you'll pick up on a correspondance between Sally Jupiter's agent and someone else about how Hooded Justice and Captain Metropolis are "squabbling like an old married couple" and how that's disrupting the team meetings. Later on there's a reference to Hooded Justice "messing around" with some younger guys and how there was some "rough stuff" and how they don't want a repeat of the "incident" with the Silouette (who was outed). There's also the fact that when HJ beats up the Comedian for raping Sally the Comedian accuses HJ of enjoying it. This stops HJ cold and the Comedian laughs at him saying "I've got your number."

Remember the 80s?

Supreme

Jul 29th, '03, 07:30 AM

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
There's even been some talk that Oriental Martial Arts were influenced/inspired by Greek pankration, spread by the armies of Alexander the Great into the middle east and from there trickled into India and China. Who knows?

But yeah, MAs can be ANYTHING from Ancient Shaolin Solar Sun Stance types to Begby-esque bar room scrappers to palookas to just naturally talented fighters. Its whatever you want it to be. Ive always had a lot of fun with the MAs in the HERO System; I think its the best system for representing MAs that Ive ever run across; much better than Ninja's and Superspies frex IMO.
Yeah, the trouble with that theory is that the first written records in China that refer to martial arts predate Alexander by about 200 years. Yeah, its possible that prankaton (sp?) still had an influence, but anyone who's ever studied either Shaolin Kung Fu or Yoga will notice that there are moves common to both disciplines. Any influence that prankaton had on Kung Fu is nothing compared to the influence of Yoga, which would have been brought into China by Bodhiharma, the primary Buddhist missionary to China (also called the 13th Patriarch of the Buddha).

Hermit

Jul 29th, '03, 07:31 AM

Originally posted by OddHat
<clap><clap><clap>! With a special round of aplause for Jude (wo I hope was an ordained priest or at least a seminary student before gaining his powers) and Cutter!

Thanks... and I'm thinking Jude was indeed either a priest or a priest in training... perhaps his origin involves finding a cache of 'dark books' under the vatican or something. :) For the PCs, how I present the NPCs personalities will be more important than having their backgrounds down exactly.

Hermit

Jul 29th, '03, 07:36 AM

Originally posted by RevHooligan
These are all very well done! I like Jude and Destructmaster the best. Great names!

I like Informer's concept and story, but the name had primarily negative connotations. Whistleblowers tell on big institutions, informers tell on the little guy to the authorities.

Of course there's no white Canadian Reggae song called Whistleblower, so what do I know.

Hmmm, I guess I just thought "Informer" sounded more skulky/invisible... either that or I didn't think of Whistleblower ;)

Glad you liked the "Destructmaster Z", I tried to think of what a 13 year old PA hero would call themselves and I figured that would be close. :)

Hermit

Jul 29th, '03, 07:38 AM

Originally posted by McCoy
Hermit, thank you. Sounds like an interesting mix.

Welcome...
though, as you can probably tell I used a lot of the suggestions from others on this thread, so maybe I should be thanking all of you instead :)

Klytus

Jul 29th, '03, 08:46 AM

Wonderful writeups, Hermit. I may stea... er... borrow them myself :)

Brandi

Jul 29th, '03, 09:02 AM

Watchmen stuff: though it's strongly implied that yes, Hooded Justice is gay and fond of rough trade, the guy who pretended to be a supervillain so he could get beat up was called Captain Carnage. We never see him in the comic book because he died sometime back after Rorshach threw him down an elevator shaft.

Hermit

Jul 29th, '03, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by Klytus
Wonderful writeups, Hermit. I may stea... er... borrow them myself :)

Please, feel free. As I was telling another, I'm rather surprised (pleasantly) at how this thread took off.

CourtFool

Jul 29th, '03, 02:44 PM

No one expects the roman inquisition!

Doug McCrae

Jul 30th, '03, 03:12 AM

Cat girl scientist

umbra

Jul 30th, '03, 06:26 AM

How bout one character being a hermaphrodite? That would be different.... And I mean one that was born that way, not one that can shape shift back and forth. That might be perfect for the martial artist (i.e. his/her yin and yang is perfectly equal). Also you could have all sorts of disads, social, psych, and maybe be in love with someone who's totally weirded out by it.

Supreme

Jul 30th, '03, 07:56 AM

I think we could also stand to identify and break some other character stereotypes. There are a few things I've either never seen, or rarely seen in super-heroes.

an Asian Brick (only one I can think of is the robo-sumo from Stormwatch)
a female stretcher (not metamorph per se, but a female Plastic Man or Mr. Fantastic)
a female brick who wasn't gorgeous
a Jewish character who wasn't Israeli, Orthodox, or even Conservative (religiously)
a devotee of an Eastern Religion who wasn't a martial artist or mystic
a charismatic brick/team leader (ala Superman) who was black
an alien who looks like an African American

Keep in mind that when I say "never seen" I don't read a lot of mainstream comics.

VictorVonDoom

Jul 30th, '03, 08:06 AM

Armored guy: see Big Guy series with sidekick (sidekick don't know Big guy is an exoskeleton with a human in it...) so powerarmored suit would be Big guy and a side kick

Gadgeteer: Mandarin : he needs his rings to face Ironman without he is nothing

Klytus

Jul 30th, '03, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by Supreme

a female brick who wasn't gorgeous

That would be Ironthighs, a brick in my campaign. She's big, beefy, and not very pretty. She got picked on in school and was calle "Ironthighs". That was the name the press stuck her with when she went on her first rampage. She keeps trying to become known as Ironsides, it just never works that way. Everyone knows that calling her "Ironthighs" pisses her off and causes her to go Enraged (and thus fight less effectively) so the name never gets dropped. But as my players can tell you, she is tough. rPD 40, rED 35, all hardened, and STR 80 with double knockback doesn't suck - unless you're on the receiving end, of course.

Brandi

Jul 30th, '03, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by Supreme

a female brick who wasn't gorgeous

There was a female Thing for a while. Keep in mind that female *characters* who aren't gorgeous are sort of uncommon in comics.

a Jewish character who wasn't Israeli, Orthodox, or even Conservative (religiously)

Kitty Pride's Jewish, but I get the impression that her family, at their most devout, is Reform, and if anything they are probably as secular as my family, who are ostensibly Jewish but don't really bother with anything but Chanukah.

Supreme

Jul 30th, '03, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by Brandi
There was a female Thing for a while. Keep in mind that female *characters* who aren't gorgeous are sort of uncommon in comics.

Kitty Pride's Jewish, but I get the impression that her family, at their most devout, is Reform, and if anything they are probably as secular as my family, who are ostensibly Jewish but don't really bother with anything but Chanukah.
I remember both characters. I still think that single examples qualify as rare.

Madstone

Jul 30th, '03, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom

Gadgeteer: Mandarin : he needs his rings to face Ironman without he is nothing

Actually, if I remember correctly, Mandarin is an incredible martial artist who is capable of splitting metal with his bare hands. I think he even cracked Iron Man's armor openhanded once. Not to mention, he has a strong financial and political powerbase as well.

Just being argumentative ;)

Doug McCrae

Jul 30th, '03, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by Supreme

a charismatic brick/team leader (ala Superman) who was blackIcon from early 90s publishers Milestone (I think that's the name). All their heroes were black. Icon was blatantly the black Superman.

Hermit

Jul 30th, '03, 05:17 PM

The Thing was revealed in the last year or so as being Jewish; I think. I could be mistaken.

Brandi

Jul 30th, '03, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by Supreme
I remember both characters. I still think that single examples qualify as rare.

True dat; I was just noting that they didn't happen, in those cases, to be non-existent.

And I have a sneaking suspicion that even if a Jewish character has the look of a Conservative or Orthodox Jew, such as wearing payess and a yarmulke, they may not actually seem to *behave* in keeping with the traditions...

Oruncrest

Jul 30th, '03, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by Doug McCrae
Icon from early 90s publishers Milestone (I think that's the name). All their heroes were black...

Not true. Kobalt was white, and the star of his own title. The Blood Syndicate was multiracial (mostly latino, with a couple of black guys, a Korean-American, a chinese ghost... they even had a token white guy) as were the Heroes (mostly black, with a Chinese speedster, a German brick, and I'm not sure what race Iota is) and the Shadow Cabinet (three 'sari, wrong number' Indians, at least 3 white folks, a Palestinian, an android, and I'm not sure what Twilight is.
Also, Brickhouse of the Blood Syndicate qualifies as a 'non-gorgeous' Brick, especially if Denys Cowan is drawing her, so does Monstress of the reboot LSH.

McCoy

Jul 30th, '03, 08:42 PM

Originally posted by Hermit
The Thing was revealed in the last year or so as being Jewish; I think. I could be mistaken.

Since Ben was in many ways Jack's alter ego, makes sense.

Korvar

Aug 1st, '03, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by Doug McCrae
Icon from early 90s publishers Milestone (I think that's the name). All their heroes were black. Icon was blatantly the black Superman.

Oruncrest's already mentioned many others, but Xombi (loved that comic) was Korean-American

I really loved those Milestone comics... Static, Icon, & Xombi especially.

zornwil

Aug 1st, '03, 11:51 PM

Okay, here's a shot -

Originally posted by Hermit
WARNING: Longwinded

I was thinking of constructing an NPC super team as possible rivals for some PCs, but I also wanted to make it fun for me. So I thought, what if I went with the classic archetypes, but deliberately broke the personality stereotypes often associated with them?

After about 30 minutes I realized it seemed there was very little under the sun that the writers of comicdom hadn't already at least tried. :) Still, here's what I've come up with so far.

Brick- This was one of the hardest because the 'strong guy' type is so darn common in comic books. You have brutish Bricks, ingenius Bricks, joking bricks, angsty bricks, and so on. I tried to find one personality trait that I didn't see much, and it was hard. However, I was thinking maybe a pacifist Brick? One who prefers not to fight until he must. Some might even confuse him (or her) for Timid.

Maybe a wealthy closet-gay sex addict who fronts as a hetero playboy who doesn't look strong and doesn't "act" strong.

Energy Projector- Most I've seen tend to match the 'energies' they project. Flame characters are 'hotheads', Ice characters are either chillingly aloof or at least keep their cool ;) Sometimes you get a reversal just for contrast. This one really stumped me.

These come in so many shapes and sizes, like bricks, it's hard to get around a "stereotype" because there isn't much of that anymore. I'd try a slow-witted clumsy child-like bufoon who is well-intentioned.

Gadgetteer- I could be wrong, but I really don't think there are that many combat eager gadgeteers in the comic books. Well, at least not heroes. Sure, they get excited about science, but how many like to kick butt? The idea of a gadgeteer super hero with an attitude of "I can't wait to try out my new boom disk! uhm, on evil, of course." appeals to me.

This is good. Also, he could be very gregarious and back-slapping, always joking and never working. What he does comes naturally or - wait - maybe somebody else does it entirely! He actually doesn't make any gadgets, he just fronts for someone that does but puts on a convincing front.

Martial Artist- Are there many blue collar Martial Artists? Average joes who aren't into zen? I guess Dirty Infighters would be that sort. Maybe I'm missing some options here.

I'd pick a stoner slacker who gets very confused much of the time. Or flip this one with the gadgeteer above, make the gadgeteer a stoner slacker and the martial artist a cheesy fake whose martial arts powers aren't really martial arts at all or if they are, then they are dumb luck.

Mentalists- Arrogant Mentalists, reluctant mentalists, pedantic and so on, we see a lot of options in the comics. I'm trying to find a mentalist personality I haven't seen much. I don't recall the "Party Animal" type. I guess that mental discipline works against you for your social life? :)

That's another great one, I'd go for that. Maybe add that the mentalist is actually very gullible and lacks his own willpower on day-to-day matters (as opposed to combat).

Metamorphs- I've seen it in villainous metamorphs, but I haven't seen too many ruthlessly efficient no nonsense super hero metamorphs. In the recent "Name the Hero" contest, I found out more than one person entering a stretching sort made their submission deliberately not zany. Mind you, Reed Richards is not a 'fun guy' but he's not exactly ruthlessly pragmatic either.

Wasn't that guy whose body was all sorts of different chemical parts very pragmatic and efficient? I'm not sure. Anyway, another thing could be a reluctant metamorph, I haven't seen much of those. This one hates to stand out and never uses his powers except in necessary situations (even in Hero ID). He is trying to find a way to fix his form - even though there's nothing wrong with him, his morph abilities are entirely healthy and not hurting him in any way (other than his perception of social standing or some mental block).

Mystics- It's all been done. :) Prove me wrong.

Maybe an animal, literally, with a mental grasp between that of the normal animal of their class and human, such that they are well sub-human. They don't understand human situations well and require direction. Sort of like a familiar but instead this is the heroic star and the hero team struggles to keep the animal on the right path.

Patriot- Has anyone made a Patriot who challenges his or her own government regularly? Participating in rallies and such? I had a concept called "Defiant" that did just that. I think it was fairly original, but I could be wrong. Mind you, given the Avatar part of Patriots, anything COULD be done really.

Maybe somebody who lacks confidence and is chronically depressed, but still does their patriotic duty? I don't recall seeing any quite like that. But I'm not that well-read in regular super-hero comics.

Powered Armor- Scientific minds, and playboys often seem to be the norm. I've seen soldiers placed in suits. I don't recall many rebels here either though. After all, to get a power suit you normally have to either be part of the establishment (Wealthy member able to dictate agenda) or given suit BY the establishment ("You will be testing the..." ) . This allows for visionaries with their own agendas, or soldiers doing their duty, but the rebel seems often missing. I guess most 'rogue' Powered Armor types become default villains as likely the gear isn't legally theirs.

The rogue type is a good choice. Or could be some poor person who is extremely confused - say someone with something similar to Alzheimer's. They think the powered armor is their workfare job and they tend to it as such. As they fight crime, they keep asking for money "for doing my workfare." Yes, you can remind them, but they'll forget. Very confused, very poor. You could match up the suit such that it has all sorts of capabilities - maybe a VPP - but the person cannot operate it predictably. They could still be very useful in combat as they always hit the "attack" button (labeled as such) to attack, but they don't understand or keep forgetting the many nuances of that button, that if you push up you get a firebolt and push down you get an ice volley. So they do use attacks but sometimes not the best or sometimes something overly effective.

Speedster- Barry Allen was dedicated, a serious scientists; Wally West has been portrayed as a fun loving youth, later Womanizer, before settling down a bit more seriously. Quicksilver is usually cranky (The man wants his cheeseburger-today!). Are there any mellow laid back speedsters? The sort who take their time? I don't recall many, probably because in the comics we WANT to see a speedster zip around. I maybe missing one though.

Weaponmaster- Honorbound Swordsmen, Rough edged archers, joking heroes who fling theme weapons ("Pick a card, any card"). The only Weaponmaster I don't have spring to mind instantly is "The Reluctant Weaponmaster". Normally, mastery of a weapon is sought. These folks WANT to use their weapon well. So a reluctant one might require some finagling on the background. On second thought, I suppose Travis Morgan, D.C.'s Warlord might have qualified, but its not like I remember he and that hungry blade teaming up with the JLA much.

Maybe a bipolar schizophrenic?

..........
Any other thoughts guys and gals?