Open Gaming License?

[Dauntless]

After the phenomenal success of WoTC's d20 system and its Open Gaming License, would Hero Games ever think of doing the same? d20 has saturated the market thanks to this, and some people virtually equate RPG's with d20 now.

While it may partially take away money from Hero in the short run, I think in the long run it would be even better since Hero was designed from the ground up to support multiple genres and settings (something neither d20 nor GURPS could really do without buying a gazillion supplements to flesh out the rules).

Basically, the Hero system begs to be utilized for it's flexibility, and I'm sure plenty of people would love to do so. I think an OGL would open up so many doors for Hero Games that it would be a win-win for everyone (Hero Games, because more people will see more settings for the game and therefore need to buy the core rules system, and the gamers because there will be so much more material out there).

[VictorVonDoom]

d6 open license games ...why not !!

[Monolith]

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom
d6 open license games ...why not !!
Why not? Because DOJ would be forced to come out with new versions of FREd every 2 years to make money. :)

The d20/OGL license works for WotC because they have 1,000,000 loyal fans world wide. You need to take a couple of zeroes off of that to discuss HERO System fans. Those are two entirely different markets. Things like pdf publishing can work in the d20 market, but HERO System fans are traditionally strongly opposed to it. I would bet that not even 40% of the members of this message board, let alone the entire fanbase, have a subscription to Digital HERO, for example. The d20 license works due to the sheer volume of fans. The OGL license, on the other hand, will eventually be the downfall of WotC.

I would also point out that DOJ's licensing terms are not unreasonable. I believe the website states a 5% royalty to get a license. That is a very small amount of money overall. DOJ is not asking for an arm and a leg to get a license, they are just asking for a simple commitment from people interested in producing quality HERO System material. That does not sound unreasonable to me.

[Dauntless]

I don't think so. If you make an analogy of OGL to open-source software, then open source software is creating huge amounts of software and is the dirving force behind the ever-increasing popularity of Linux.

What makes the OGL great is that it doesn't bar anyone from creating supplementary rules or new settings for the game world. Look at Dungeons and Dragons (the fantasy setting) as compared to say Spycraft or Star Wars roleplaying. I don't think it's D&D's popularity that makes people churn out a huge amount of other d20 material, I think it's the fact that people can create whatever they want utilizing a pre-made rules set without fear of legal prosecution.

The advantage that d20 has is that due to the sheer number of D&D players, it already had a huge market of people familiar with the d20 rules. Therefore it made crossover to other genres easier for many players. If Hero did this, it would slowly have to build up a reputation...something that d20 didn't need thanks to it's massive inherited fan base (it's like creating a computer game based in the Star Trek universe...even if the game sucks, it's guaranteed to sell a lot at first simply because of the fan base).

I actually think an OGL would help a small to mid-sized company like Hero. Because then Hero could concentrate on the Ultimate series (which are mostly rules-based or add clarity to the rules) as opposed to creating new settings and game worlds. I for one always play my own campaigns so I'll never buy the Terran Empire book or any of the Fantasy worlds. No offense, but I think I can create more interesting worlds that will suit both myself and the player group (because I know their tastes...something Hero Games will never know). I therefore think Hero Games could concentrate on things other than settings books.

Also, having an OGL means that every new Hero material that does come out will only serve to further advertise the Hero system itself. Perhaps someone out there will create a really cool game world and people will go, "huh, what's this Hero System?.....I have to go buy it now". In other words, it's another marketing tool that Hero doesn't even have to pay for.

All in all, it's a no-lose scenario for Hero Games...unless they think that it will cause core Hero System fans to not buy their own game world books. However, if Hero Games concentrates on adding new powers, rules, clarifications of genres (like Star Hero or Fantasy Hero...but NOT specific settings like Terran Empire, Alien Wars, Scourges of the Galaxy, The Turakian Age, The Valdorian Age etc.) then the rules additions may become "Required" supplements for some OGL-based game worlds.

Again, look at linux. It had a teeny fan base (still does, but it's grown exponentially the last 4 years) but thanks to the ability for people to create whatever they want with it...it's become something that IBM, Sun, and Novell have taken a serious notice to. Initial size of a company for an Open Gaming License is irrelevant...it may take a while, but it can only add to the value of the company, not take away from it.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Dauntless
I actually think an OGL would help a small to mid-sized company like Hero. Because then Hero could concentrate on the Ultimate series (which are mostly rules-based or add clarity to the rules) as opposed to creating new settings and game worlds.
And if 6 other companies decide to produce Ultimate-like series books, then what? Then DOJ is competeing with everyone else for a market which they now have complete control over. I would also point out that there are many HERO players who complain that one book a month is too much for them to buy, making that 6 books a month only adds to a HERO System player's buying pressure.

There is also one final thing that needs to be stated. The HERO System is not d20 or D&D. It is a complex game system that caters to a specific type of player; the type of player who prefers the complexity of the game. 90% of the d20 market is not going to switch to the HERO System just because there is more product available for it. The style of play that the HERO System offers is an acquired taste, and is thus a niche market within the gaming industry. While more can be done to add those niche players to the HERO System pool, producing more product is not the way to go about it. ICE proved that during its run at greatness.

[Steve Long]

We have no intention whatsoever of making the HERO System any sort of "open gaming license."

[Dauntless]

Steve-

That's too bad. I really think it would be a boon for the company rather than a bane. Just out of curiosity is it because of Monolith's reasons?

As for competing with other vendors who could also produce supplementary material (as opposed to setting material), firstly there's the notion that it's "Official". Going back to computer analogies, people want that "Microsoft Certified" stamp of approval on it. They may download and use non-MS approved drivers, but usually the Microsoft ones are prefferred. DOJ will have the leg up here, and the 3rd party manufacturers will have to prove themselves (I don't think any 3rd party d20 game setting will ever be more popular than D&D itself).

Also, competition is good not just for the consumer, but for the business too. It keeps them on their toes, and forces them to innovate. If they keep it comfy, some other business is going to come along with something better than yours anyways.

Like I said, I personally always create my own game worlds....so I wouldn't even buy 3rd party game settings books.

[Steve Long]

It's because it offers no benefits for us whatsoever, and plenty of existing or potential drawbacks.

[Lord Liaden]

Not that I would presume to speak for Steve Long (so if I'm incorrect in this Steve, I apologize and please correct me), but IIRC Steve once remarked that Hero Games would have no control over the quality and consistency of product produced under an OGL, and as a small startup company he wanted to establish an association with a standard of quality for Hero products before even thinking about an OGL.

[Steve Long]

That's just one of many reasons.

[tiger]

I see it as a double edge sword myself. On the one hand the OGL stops Wizards/Hero or whomever from having any type of control of the products, content and quality of products released for use with their games.

On the other hand to OGL allows supplements released that would not normally be done. Such as games, adventures, "Add-ons" that these companies don't beleive fit in their "vision" of the games.

So it seems to me that Hero/DOJ, Wizards, Goo, whoever have to judge what is best for their companies. Wizards has decided to use the OGL and seems to have taken the "Flood the marget place" role, Hero/Doj seems to have taken a more "Controled" role. Either can work fine, only time will tell the best methods.

To their credit Hero has stated no plans for a 6th hero, where as wizards has already released a 3.5. Makes you wonder on the best method

[Dauntless]

Perhaps I'm just different, but I never associate the quality of one product which uses another product to be indicative of the quality of the related product.

Since I love computer analogies, I'll give an example. When the Athlon CPU was first released back in 1999, they had some stability issues. It was discovered that the great number of these issues came not from AMD's CPU, but rather from the motherboard chipset made by VIA. I didn't assume AMD had made a bad product thanks to the lousy quality control of motherboard manufacturers. Fortunately most other people realized this too and gave AMD a chance.

In fact, I can use this exact analogy to illustrate the benefit of using 3rd party manufacturers. AMD has come up with a new bridging technology called Hypertransport. There are no licensing issues and the standard is open. Therefore anyone can use this technology at their discretion (AMD doesn't charge a licensing fee to use this technology). It's up to the manufacturer to adhere to the protocol and have good quality control. However, if there's a bad product, will the blame fall on AMD's feet for creating this technology? Hardly, considering that AMD has proven how good the technology is through their own products. In other words, if I create a good car that works well, has low gas mileage and good acceleration and I give someone else the blueprints to the car...and he makes a crappy one, are you going to assume my car is bad?

As the saying goes, no publicity is bad publicity, and I think an OGL is a great way to to show off your product (so long as you at least have one good product to begin with). Anything with an open license is hard to understand from a business sense (just ask Linux companies or the Free Software Foundation, or Sun for giving away Java). I honestly think though that this is the wave of the future. Proprietary things tend to have a way of imprisoning themselves. Having an OGL would at least mean the game rules (the protocol or standard in computer terms) could remain propietary, but anyone else could use them and build things with it.

But I have a feeling DOJ's mind is made up on this one, so anything I say is for naught. Ah well...I tried :)

[Balok]

Dauntless, it's worth pointing out that it is still unclear whether the OGL will help or hurt WoTC in the long term. It is possible that the size of WoTC is what has so far prevented the OGL from imploding the business.

It's made a lot of other companies a lot of money -- and this is supposed to feed back and drive demand for the core rulebooks that WoTC sells.

Why, then, is 3.5 making its debut at least a year ahead of schedule? Why has WoTC laid off so many over the last 18 months or so? Why are few of the people who drove the OGL and 3.0 still with WoTC (some have been laid off, and some -- including OGL architect Ryan Dancey -- have left on their own).

The success of the OGL depends on (a) a lean business model at WoTC that does not invest much in R&D, and (b) feedback from third party products that drives sales of the core rulebooks.

I'm almost certain Steve Long wouldn't want to work for a company uninterested in R&D, and I'm not convinced that third parties would generate enough product to drive sales of FREd enough to sustain those DOJ has on its payroll *now*.

And, DOJ should be aiming for growth (controlled, but growth); that's what provides return on investment. At the least, they need to generate enough revenue to sustain the staff, with raises, benefits, and suchlike.

My $0.02, as always...

[Killer Shrike]

Instead of OGL, I think a controlled liscencing set up with a hot property would be a big boon to DOJ, for the draw factor alone.

But, it doesnt seem realisticly doable from the comments Steve has made regarding liscencing, and the fact that the company doesnt have scads o cash to risk on such a venture.

I think the proof is in the pudding. So far DOJ has been a power house, turning out products Ive been very happy with and which have revitalized interest in the HERO System. Ive got eager players popping out of the woodworks the last 6 months or so, frex.

So Im content with the direction Steve and the less visible members of DOJ are taking the company.

[Vondy]

5% royalty sharing is infinately reasonable, and in truth, its only just that DOJ should profit from their property.

[Dauntless]

I think the real double edged sword about OGL is that people only have a limited amount of money. So although OGL allows for vast amounts of supplementary material, people still have fixed budgets. So essentially, the stuff that DOJ puts out will only eat into the budget of people who also want all the cool supplements that come out. This has to be made up by introducing more and more people to the Hero System. However, the number of roleplayers is small and finite...so eventually even this buffer gets taken away.

That's why I think if it is attempted by a company, they have to focus on one or two things, and that's it. And the things they create must be required or necessary for other 3rd party makers. For example, creating rules for expanded vehicle combat, weapon's design supplements and the like. If the core company also dabbles in campaign books, world books, and other settings-like material, then I think it dilutes their business model.

A part of WoTC's troubles I think is that it got too big too fast and it's starting to implode on itself. If I were them, I would have outsourced "official" D&D game settings to 3rd party makers rather than with their own staff, and I would have concentrated on the core things (like monster manuals, rules expansions, character class companion material and the like). Since the game worlds themselves are propietary, WoTC could still maintain quality control by having editors in liason with the 3rd party to make sure it was up to snuff.

Having open licenses isn't easy, as many companies who do use them will easily attest. But in this digital age, I think people want more choice and variety than ever before. It's possible it's an idea before its time, but I really do think if implemented properly it will be the wave of the future.

I always thought that the Hero System's greatest strength was it's versatility and flexibility. Since it's truly a generic system, it practically begs for game worlds and settings. Unfortunately, the Hero System is also fairly complex (by other's standards) and that limits the people willing to play it. I can therefore see why DOJ wants to make sure that what is released is carefully controlled. They can also afford to have proprietary game worlds because the fan base is smaller. WoTC could afford to have everyone and their brother make different settings since the official D&D system is so popular. But I think in the long run at least people will know who WoTC is. (Good) Mindshare should never be underestimated. Some people new to roleplaying practically equate roleplaying with WoTC.

[buzz]

Originally posted by Balok
Why, then, is 3.5 making its debut at least a year ahead of schedule? Why has WoTC laid off so many over the last 18 months or so? Why are few of the people who drove the OGL and 3.0 still with WoTC (some have been laid off, and some -- including OGL architect Ryan Dancey -- have left on their own).

Uh, because the economy is in a tailspin for reasons that have nothing to do with the OGL?

Companies everywhere are hurting. WOtC, like any other business, is doing what it can to make a profit. If it keeps them in business and new D&D books heading for my shelf, I'm all for it.

The OGL won't work for HERO simply because it's business model is suited to Big FIsh In The Pond(tm). Besides expanding the base of fans who encounter the system, it also puts the onus of producing "unprofitable" products like adventures and campaign settings OFF of WotC and onto smaller companies that can actually make money producing them. WotC can then do what it does best: glossy hardcovers. HERO, however, can't afford to give any of its business away like that.

The real test of the potential of the OGL for a less-pervasive system like HERO will be GoO's recent decision to make Tri-StatDX freely downloadable. If they can continue to be profitable while giving away their house system for free, then maybe DOJ can do it too.

However, I'm not holding my breath. DOJ is doing a damn fine job as it is. I already can't keep up with their release schedule. :)

[lemming]

Plus I think Steve is too much of a control freak to do anything like the OGL. :D

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by lemming
Plus I think Steve is too much of a control freak to do anything like the OGL. :D But in a good way ;)

[Steve Long]

We don't like to use the words "control freak" around here. We prefer "focused on quality." :)

[Quasar]

Just a few words about WotC, OGL and 3.5.

First of all, most everyone at WotC is utterly amazed at the success of the OGL. It is an unqualified success according to those in the know. I believe it was Anthony Valterra who said that it has become more successful than his wildest dreams could have imagined.

So why is WotC laying people off? One word...Hasbro. Hasbro is entirely new to the RPG world. Their profitability models are all based on more mainstream board games and toys. RPGs don't fit any of those models so to Hasbro the D&D brand looks very much like a flop (a flop? It is THE biggest success in the RPG world!). Since WotC and particularly the D&D brand are being held up to the Hasbro standard for profitability, the management has had two options...1) Lay people off...2)put 3.5 out a year ahead of schedule.

It is very unfortunate that WotC was bought by Hasbro IMO. For those of us who love D&D (and play and love Hero, BTW) it would have been interesting to see where WotC and in particular D&D would have been had Hasbro not taken over.

Quasar
Leader of Millenium Force

[buzz]

Originally posted by Quasar
So why is WotC laying people off? One word...Hasbro.

One word... the economy. (sic)

Hasbro isn't doing anything that every other company in the US isn't doing. The economy is in the crapper, so they cut costs by, among many other things, laying opff experienced staff who command high salaries and replacing them with less-experienced staff they can pay less to do the same job. Virtually no different in the IT industry.

If WotC hadn't been bought by Hasbro, they'd need to do the same thing or, worse yet, end up going out of business or getting bought by some other entity.


Originally posted by Quasar
It is very unfortunate that WotC was bought by Hasbro IMO. For those of us who love D&D (and play and love Hero, BTW) it would have been interesting to see where WotC and in particular D&D would have been had Hasbro not taken over.

While I'm sympathetic to this argument (which Monte Cook has made a big case for, i.e., that D&D would be better served in the hands of a smaller company), I'm generally sick of people blaming the "suits at Hasbro" for everything they dislike about D&D or the industry.

Sure, there are some dumb decisions that get made when profit is placed ahead of quality, but the flip side is that WotC is one of the few companies that can produce jaw-droppingly gorgeous hardcovers at reasonable prices on a regular basis. I imagine it's also got to be nice to work for one of the few RPG companies that can pay a living wage.

I dunno. I just don't think the situation is as black-and-white as it is often portrayed. And, with the OGL, D&D basically *is* in the hands of a smaller company... lots of them. :)

[Quasar]

While I'm sympathetic to this argument (which Monte Cook has made a big case for, i.e., that D&D would be better served in the hands of a smaller company), I'm generally sick of people blaming the "suits at Hasbro" for everything they dislike about D&D or the industry.

Chill. Do you work for Hasbro or something? I was only pointing out that many current and former employees of WotC blame Hasbro's placing unrealistic expectations on D&D for the early release of 3.5 and for many of the lay-offs. RPGs will never have the ability to perform the way Monopoly or Beenie Babies do.

Quasar
Leader of Millenium Force

[buzz]

Originally posted by Quasar
Chill. Do you work for Hasbro or something? I was only pointing out that many current and former employees of WotC blame Hasbro's placing unrealistic expectations on D&D for the early release of 3.5 and for many of the lay-offs. RPGs will never have the ability to perform the way Monopoly or Beenie Babies do.

For the record, I do not work for Hasbro. :)

And, for the record, I have heard many former WotC employees talk about Hasbro's unreasonable expectations, and, based on such limited experience, I can sympathize. Hasbro has forced some bone-headed decisions on the WotC designers.

I'm just saying there's a flip side. Like, *color* rulebooks. :D

[Dauntless]

I wonder if they think it's a success because they've seen an increase in sales of the core rule book (the Player's Handbook) or due to the sheer number of 3rd party companies that are making supplementary material? If they can show that it has increased sales, then it proves the OGL model can be beneficial. If not, then it might be showing that sales to 3rd party companies are cannabilizing the budgets of players, forcing them not to buy as many core rule books. I'm factoring in only core rulebooks sales, and not game world settings.

But getting back to Hero and the DOJ, I think that for right now, perhaps it is better that they stay proprietary, but hopefully if they get big enough they'll give the OGL model a new look. In some ways though, the OGL model is actually more advantageous for small to medium sized companies, as it allows them to ally themselves with other groups, allowing each one to specialize rather than be jcak of all trades and waste business focus.

Well, I think I've beaten that horse dead :) Hopefully the guys at DOJ will one day at least think about an OGL, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by buzz
The real test of the potential of the OGL for a less-pervasive system like HERO will be GoO's recent decision to make Tri-StatDX freely downloadable. If they can continue to be profitable while giving away their house system for free, then maybe DOJ can do it too.


Unless their system itself is protected by patents (highly unlikely), then it is freely available anyway, so what's the point?

(Copyright doesn't protect a system - see http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ31.html Copyright protects expressions of ideas, not ideas thems, consequently protecting the specific text stating the system, not the system itself. Note that doesn't mean you get to use someone's trademarks freely while using their system...)

[buzz]

Originally posted by slaughterj
Unless their system itself is protected by patents (highly unlikely), then it is freely available anyway, so what's the point?

Ah, the old Role Aids/"Compatible with AD&D" argument.

IANAL, but I think this is pretty much irrelevant. It's not about copyright; it's about liscensing. Someone like Steve Long could probably explain it better than I could.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by buzz
Ah, the old Role Aids/"Compatible with AD&D" argument.

IANAL, but I think this is pretty much irrelevant. It's not about copyright; it's about liscensing. Someone like Steve Long could probably explain it better than I could.

IIRC, Role Aids and others were sued by the industry's 800lb gorilla TSR, couldn't stand up to it, thus couldn't maintain legitimate claims.

As for licensing, that pretty much goes to trademarks and unfair competition generally, i.e., not using logos and trademarks to suggest sponsorship or approval by the owner of the marks. Good for making your product look more "official", but not necessary in order to create a product using a given system.

It's good to be an intellectual property attorney :)

[None of the content contained herein is intended to create an attorney-client relationship or constitutes legal advice. Any legal matters should be directed to an attorney for a review of the specific issues involved.]

[buzz]

Originally posted by slaughterj
As for licensing, that pretty much goes to trademarks and unfair competition generally, i.e., not using logos and trademarks to suggest sponsorship or approval by the owner of the marks. Good for making your product look more "official", but not necessary in order to create a product using a given system.

No fair! You're a ringer! :)

So, why don't more companies do the "compatible with <big name game here>" thing, then? I mean, a publsher can't just slap a full HERO writeup in a product and publish it, can they? Some parts of a system must be IP, right? Role Aids is the only company I can think of (and like you said, they got sued).

School me, lawyer-boy.

[Steve Long]

While I'm not an IP attorney specifically, I am an attorney, and I think there are potential grounds on which to challenge the idea that a game system can't be protected by copyright or some other IP regime. I'm not going to be the one who has to pony up the money to prove it (I hope ;) ), but I think there are definite grounds for argument.

[Polaris]

I remember a thread about the possibility of Hero going OGL shortly after DoJ took over the Hero Games assets.

As a customer, I think it would be great. I would love to see the popularity of the Hero system drive third party setting and source material to be produced for it. Many in my group are opposed to switching back to Hero as a result of the plentitude of d20 materials.

At the same time, I can definitely understand Steve and Co reluctance to allow for the production of Hero supplements without their control/share of profit. If the OGL works to cause a large number of competitive products (supplements and settings), then it takes away from Hero's sales of things like TE. If the OGL doesn't work to bring out such competitive alternatives, then it didn't bring about any compelling benefit.

Dauntless, your arguments are very reasoned and compelling. You present ideas very well, and provide good reasoning for your judgments. I would love to see Hero go OGL, and definitely think there may be a compelling business model to doing so... I just don't think it is consistent with DoJ's business model (their production schedule seems to indicate that they plan on making a lot of their revenue on the supplements and source materials).

The argument that the competition of an OGL keeps a business on its toes, so to speak, may be a pretty compelling argument against Hero doing OGL. I don't think companies are in the business of looking for competition. Most businesses would rather not have a lot of competition for their revenue streams (makes planning easier when you have less opposition competing for your revenue streams). Many of the people here (probably the biggest concentration of the most loyal of Hero fans) have voiced frustration and disapproval of some of materials put out by Hero. They stick around because if you want to get Hero materials, Hero Games is about the only game in town (except for some fine stuff if you want to search the web for it). I am not sure why they (DoJ) would want to give that up.

Polaris

PS: Even tho' Steve has made DoJ's position quite clear, this is probably one of my favorite topics here. OGL is big in the RPG industry, and I do enjoy reading everyone's take on it (people on this board are some of the most intelligent and knowledgable RPG veterans, and getting your views on this can be quite interesting). Thanks! :)

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by buzz
No fair! You're a ringer! :)

So, why don't more companies do the "compatible with <big name game here>" thing, then? I mean, a publsher can't just slap a full HERO writeup in a product and publish it, can they? Some parts of a system must be IP, right? Role Aids is the only company I can think of (and like you said, they got sued).

School me, lawyer-boy.

I haven't a clue why people haven't elected to go that route, it's their $, not mine ;) As for some parts of the system being IP, sure, the logos, trademarks, etc. are IP, and so are the written words expressing the system - lots of people would probably get tripped up by these things, and consequently, Steve Long or whichever other game designer whose system was at issue would send out a cease & desist demand letter, and perhaps follow it up with a Complaint in federal court in the event of unsatisfactory resolution. As for schooling you, well, that's what I get paid for ;)

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by Steve Long
While I'm not an IP attorney specifically, I am an attorney, and I think there are potential grounds on which to challenge the idea that a game system can't be protected by copyright or some other IP regime. I'm not going to be the one who has to pony up the money to prove it (I hope ;) ), but I think there are definite grounds for argument.

As we both know, there's always grounds for argument in the law :) I suspect that most anyone that tried to go that route would screw things up, and no novel theories would be needed though :)

[BlackCobra]

So Steve, how much fun is it to NOT have to use the IANAL acronym?

Although you guys seem to have covered this topic pretty well, there's a couple of important points I think you missed:

1. For Hero, the 5th Ed rulebook (which is what you'd have to OGL) really IS the main Hero product. I would imagine it outsells the rest of their line combined about 2:1.

2. Although lots of source material is nice, the bottom line is: you only need the 5th Ed rulebook. Period. No other supplement is actually necessary (which doesn't seem to stop me from buying all of them). I can actually use sourcebooks from anything -- I also buy lots of GURPS books. Having things spelled out is nice, but not Essential. When you talk about the d20 stuff, there are all sorts of things those basic rules DON'T do. Those third parties have to invent all sorts of new stuff in order for it to work with their genre.

The complexity thing is also a barrier, I agree.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Polaris
They stick around because if you want to get Hero materials, Hero Games is about the only game in town (except for some fine stuff if you want to search the web for it). I am not sure why they (DoJ) would want to give that up.



This is me. I don't have a lot of use for about half of what Hero has churned out to date, but what I have purchased has been exceptional.

Hero and Dream Pod 9 (online) are the only companies I even look at right now.

[Steve Long]

So Steve, how much fun is it to NOT have to use the IANAL acronym?

In some ways, it's pretty darn cool. ;)

In others, it's not cool at all. I rarely participate in legal discussions online (or elsewhere) for fear that someone might claim I gave them legal advice and then sue me when it didn't work out. Anything I say I have to try to phrase carefully.

[tiger]

Originally posted by buzz
So, why don't more companies do the "compatible with <big name game here>" thing, then?

Let's see..Compatible with Star Hero (Copyrighted), Fantasy Hero (Copyrighted), Champions (Copyrighted), Hero System(Copyrighted)..mmm

Might have a slight problem here

[Nightfly]

Originally posted by Monolith
I would bet that not even 40% of the members of this message board, let alone the entire fanbase, have a subscription to Digital HERO, for example.

I'd love to get Digital HERO but I don't understand the whole coupon thing. Please enlighten me... cuz I own 3/4 of the FREd books (aiming for a full collection), so I should (by already owning so many) fully qualify.

Am I misreading it as a based on purchased books deal? Is there proof's of purchase within each book I can send somewhere to prove what I've bought?

I reiterate, I'll practically Kill (an Orc) to get Digital HERO. (I actually own the full version of Acrobat, so I'm not opposed to .pdf's at all) :)

[Nightfly]

Here's my Proud FREd Collection (so far);

FREd, Ultimate Martial Artist, Ninja Hero, Star Hero, Ultimate Vehicle, Millennium City, Resource Kit, Bestiary, Spacers Toolkit, UNTIL Superpowers Database.

[buzz]

Originally posted by tiger
Let's see..Compatible with Star Hero (Copyrighted), Fantasy Hero (Copyrighted), Champions (Copyrighted), Hero System(Copyrighted)..mmm

Might have a slight problem here

The point, iirc, is that saying "compatible with" is *not* necessarily a violation of copyright, ergo the Role Aids propducts of yesteryear... or at least until they got sued. :)

These discussions are always so exhausing. Those of us (myself included) with no real knowledge of the law start whipping stuff out of our butts until a real lawyer comes along and tells us we don't know what we're talking about.

Maybe DOJ needs to just add this OGL questioning to the FAQ . :D

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Nightfly
I'd love to get Digital HERO but I don't understand the whole coupon thing. Please enlighten me... cuz I own 3/4 of the FREd books (aiming for a full collection), so I should (by already owning so many) fully qualify.

Am I misreading it as a based on purchased books deal? Is there proof's of purchase within each book I can send somewhere to prove what I've bought?

I reiterate, I'll practically Kill (an Orc) to get Digital HERO. (I actually own the full version of Acrobat, so I'm not opposed to .pdf's at all) :)

Simple, really. Digital Hero is a separate purchase made through the Online Store. You can purchase 1 credit (5 bucks), or more, including a cheaper "yearly rate" of 10 coupons (30 bucks). Buying a full subscription, yearly rate, 10 coupons also lets you get access to the nifty playtest boards, where you get to see cool things like the Fantasy Hero book, early.

Once you have your purchase confirmed, you log into the Digital Hero page, and buy the issues you want. Note, that you can spend your credits on any issues you like, so if you buy 10, you can cherry pick 10 issues you like and leave the rest.

You then DL your purchases to your home computer, and voila, you have Digital Hero.

Hope that helps.

D

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Nightfly
I reiterate, I'll practically Kill (an Orc) to get Digital HERO. (I actually own the full version of Acrobat, so I'm not opposed to .pdf's at all) :)
Digital Hero is a magazine which you buy a subscription to. You can buy 1 issue for $5.00 or a 10 issue, 1 year, subscription for $30.00.

If you buy the 1 year subscription you are also given access to the playtest manuscripts. You get to see all the books before they are published and you can make comments about them, possibly having something changed before it goes to print. You also gain access to the playtester's forum.

[Nightfly]

I'm sorry for not reading you better, but are you sayin $30, gets a yearly sub (10 coupons), and 10 back issues?

Either way, your info helped, I'll check it out ASAP. I really wanna get in on that action!!
But the whole coupons/credits thing was throwin me :confused:

Thanks Again!

[Monolith]

Originally posted by misterdeath
You then DL your purchases to your home computer, and voila, you have Digital Hero.
I must be ill. Someone got the answer in before me! Are one of you guys out there secretly using an Invisible Speed Drain on me? :)

[Nightfly]

Thanks Monolith, you totally cleared it up for me :)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Nightfly
I'm sorry for not reading you better, but are you sayin $30, gets a yearly sub (10 coupons), and 10 back issues?
No, a 1 year subscription lets you buy 10 issues. You can buy 10 back issues, or you can buy each of the new issues as they come out. Or you can buy 4 back issues, for example, and then use the rest of your subscription to buy 6 new issues as they come out. You can mix and match however you like. Either way you only get 10 issues though.

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Nightfly
I'm sorry for not reading you better, but are you sayin $30, gets a yearly sub (10 coupons), and 10 back issues?

Either way, your info helped, I'll check it out ASAP. I really wanna get in on that action!!
But the whole coupons/credits thing was throwin me :confused:

Thanks Again!

30 bucks gives you ten coupons. Which you can spend on any of the 11 issues that have come out so far, or save some.

AFAIK, nothing says that you have to buy 10 consecutive issues.

D

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Monolith
I must be ill. Someone got the answer in before me! Are one of you guys out there secretly using an Invisible Speed Drain on me? :)

{Hides the Drainomatic behind his cloak)

Once. One lousy time I beat Monolith in the dice off, and he starts complaining that I'm cheating.

Sheesh. ;)

D

[Monolith]

Originally posted by misterdeath
Once. One lousy time I beat Monolith in the dice off, and he starts complaining that I'm cheating.
Ok, I take it back. :)

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Monolith
Ok, I take it back. :)

The mind control ray works too.

D

[tiger]

Originally posted by Nightfly
I'm sorry for not reading you better, but are you sayin $30, gets a yearly sub (10 coupons), and 10 back issues?



Not to mention access to the playtesting material as well :D

[Nightfly]

Monolith -

Hey thanks for the 411 about Digital HERO! I picked up the enitre run today, can't wait to dive in.
I couldn't help but get every one, cuz they looked so damned imaginative!

Thanks Again
NF

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Nightfly
Thanks Again
I am glad we could help. I hope to see you popping up on the playtest boards when the next manuscript comes out too. We can always use another good mind.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by buzz
The point, iirc, is that saying "compatible with" is *not* necessarily a violation of copyright, ergo the Role Aids propducts of yesteryear... or at least until they got sued. :)

These discussions are always so exhausing. Those of us (myself included) with no real knowledge of the law start whipping stuff out of our butts until a real lawyer comes along and tells us we don't know what we're talking about.


LOL! It's great fun to be a lawyer and see lay-people discussing legal issues :)

[Storn]

Originally posted by slaughterj
LOL! It's great fun to be a lawyer and see lay-people discussing legal issues :)

Ok, lets talk about an non-legal issue that I'm surprised no one brought up. I think OGL for WoTC has been a minor success. For the health of the industry, I think it has been a MAJOR success. Last year saw such an explosion of product and new ideas... partly in response to a tidal wave of d20, but also, at many companies that I've worked for, due to the support the money of d20 brings in. Atlas Games comes to mind, which not only produces great d20 products (if you haven't read Dynasties and Demagogues..ya should!), but Unknown Armies is a breakthrough in percentile systems as well as one very cool post-modern horror game.

Sure, some companies have been swept away. That is going to happen. Some companies are not going to expand from their niche. I don't see Harn taking over the fantasy market anytime soon.

Now, having said all that, there is a glut of d20 on the market and the market is going to correct itself in pretty short order. I expect some of the quality stuff to survive. But much of the crap is going to slide away.

We get to the original question of Hero. Hero DOES NOT NEED ADD-ONS precisely for the substantial purpose of its game system. Its a building block system. d20 is not. Feats are somewhat aribitrary in d20... so it leaves room for lots of interpertation, and more often that not, overlap. There is nothing arbitrary to 1d6=5pts and all its variations.

Because we don't need as many splatbooks for Hero... UNTIL database has got me covered for quite some time folks... there isn't that burning niche waiting to be plundered.

Because settings are important to Hero and the competition is already fierce, they don'[t want to set up a competing markets for Terran Empire or their FH setting.... there are already PLENTY of settings begging to be converted from other publishers. I run my FH (now Savage Worlds for some mini-campaigns set there) in the Forgotten Realms. I know of other GMs who use other sources, often more than one, for their worlds.

So yeah, OGL would sell more FReDs. But I counter that Hero would sell less Terran Empires. Lastly, I don't see folks knocking down the door of Gold Rush to grab Action! OGL. Why? Because Action! doesn't have the built in market that d20 does. Hero is a solid 2nd tier company. The amount of games being run at Gencon (and especially the bredth and width of those games) attests to that. And they are nowhere near the numbers that d20 users and fans can attest to. Hero is doing the right thing taking the course that they are.

... and yes, I work for the company, so I am biased. I'll be up front about that.

[Polaris]

Storn,

That was one of the most well reasoned analyses I have seen in opposition to Hero going OGL.

Bravo!
Polaris

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Storn

Sure, some companies have been swept away. That is going to happen. Some companies are not going to expand from their niche. I don't see Harn taking over the fantasy market anytime soon.


BLASPHEEEEEEEMER!!!!!

You mock the greatness that is Harn!

You fail to fear its awesome power!

No other system in the world has detailed rules for crop yield and merchant payoffs, no other system has built in rules for venarial disease and dissentary, no other system.....

You will burn, Storn. You will BUUUUURN!!!!

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by D-Man
No other system in the world has detailed rules for crop yield and merchant payoffs, no other system has built in rules for venarial disease and dissentary, no other system.....


Seriously? That could actually be useful in the right kind of game. Think they can be converted into something more ... suitable?

[Storn]

Originally posted by Polaris
Storn,

That was one of the most well reasoned analyses I have seen in opposition to Hero going OGL.

Bravo!
Polaris

Thanks Polaris! Nice to get some feedback.

As for poor Harn, I didn't mean to pick on a very good game, IMO, it is just I do not see it capturing more of hte market it already has.

[slaughterj]

Playing devil's advocate here...


Originally posted by Storn
We get to the original question of Hero. Hero DOES NOT NEED ADD-ONS precisely for the substantial purpose of its game system. Its a building block system. d20 is not. Feats are somewhat aribitrary in d20... so it leaves room for lots of interpertation, and more often that not, overlap. There is nothing arbitrary to 1d6=5pts and all its variations.

While d20 in its D&D form didn't appear as "universal" as Hero, with the release of other products like d20 Modern and Mutants & Masterminds, the flexibility of the root system has been revealed, and could all be folded back in to create a more "universal" system, much as how Champions appeared initially 20+ years ago to be a superhero game but has become much more. Consequently, d20 can be reformulated like how Champions has been to not necessarily need add-ons either, but add-ons aren't the end-all be-all of gaming products (see below). Further, things like Post-Apocalyptic Hero could be considered add-ons, much like Mutants & Masterminds is a d20 add-on, and by others being able to produce such products, it opens up more interest to Hero gaming in general.


Originally posted by Storn
Because we don't need as many splatbooks for Hero... UNTIL database has got me covered for quite some time folks... there isn't that burning niche waiting to be plundered.

Why don't we need as many for Hero? Is it because it doesn't have the fan base on D&D/d20? If it were "opened up", perhaps it would, and Hero itself wouldn't be able to keep up with the demand.


Originally posted by Storn
Because settings are important to Hero and the competition is already fierce, they don'[t want to set up a competing markets for Terran Empire or their FH setting.... there are already PLENTY of settings begging to be converted from other publishers. I run my FH (now Savage Worlds for some mini-campaigns set there) in the Forgotten Realms. I know of other GMs who use other sources, often more than one, for their worlds.

It is understandable not to want to set up competition with the Hero-line of settings' products, but the fact that so many convert other settings over suggests that the settings available don't meet the demand. Letting others make an alternative sci-fi setting would still make the Spacer's Toolkit, etc. useful, and consequently drive sales for such products, whereas if someone wanted to play for instance Star Wars, they might just go with d20 entirely rather than bothering to convert it for their own game, and Hero would get no sales whatsoever.


Originally posted by Storn
So yeah, OGL would sell more FReDs. But I counter that Hero would sell less Terran Empires. Lastly, I don't see folks knocking down the door of Gold Rush to grab Action! OGL. Why? Because Action! doesn't have the built in market that d20 does. Hero is a solid 2nd tier company. The amount of games being run at Gencon (and especially the bredth and width of those games) attests to that. And they are nowhere near the numbers that d20 users and fans can attest to. Hero is doing the right thing taking the course that they are.


Yep, more 5e rule books would sell, we probably all agree on that. Whether Hero's own settings would sell more or less is debatable, however - I'm sure WOTC has sold lots of Forgotten Realms and such probably haven't been impacted by other companies' fantasy settings' sales. Let's try some #s - say there are 1000 gamers, 100 of whom play hero and would by a Hero setting, but if Hero were opened up, 200 more gamers might come to the game, making 300 gamers, but say only 100 of them by the Hero setting while the other 200 spread among other products - the result: same amount sold, just a smaller percentage sold to though (obviously the # could be more or less sold, but by expanding the consumer base as a whole doesn't necessarily mean that their own products would sell less - I'd think the opposite actually).

While I'm not necessarily in favor of an OGL, just thought I'd post some counterpoints :)

[tiger]

I think about the only true benifit of the OGL would be the publication of supplements that where not in the "DOL/Hero" line of planning. Basically supplements that don't fit into heros timelines or scheme of things.

From the D20 players I've talked to I have to agree with Storn. There seems to be alot of sub-par material out there. While I would like to see more things for the Hero system I'd want to see quality material not necessarily quanity of material.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by tiger
I think about the only true benifit of the OGL would be the publication of supplements that where not in the "DOL/Hero" line of planning. Basically supplements that don't fit into heros timelines or scheme of things.

From the D20 players I've talked to I have to agree with Storn. There seems to be alot of sub-par material out there. While I would like to see more things for the Hero system I'd want to see quality material not necessarily quanity of material.

I doubt there'd be a deluge of 3rd party Hero material in the event of an OGL, being a more complex system as well as ramping-up time, and consequently there'd be plenty of feedback on the board about such products to give people an idea whether to buy it or not...

[Dauntless]

I think DOJ basically doesn't want competition for their settings/campaign books. Which is a valid strategy, because if other companies have a legal right to create any game world they want, then it possibly takes away money from them if someone buys a 3rd party gamebook.

But herein lies the critical assumption....that if Player A buys Company B's book, that DOJ lost money. Not necessarily. Perhaps Player A already had all the Hero books he wanted, so now he's waiting for something to come out. Just because DOJ puts it out doesn't mean it's a guaranteed seller. I think this is the assumption that DOJ and is why they don't want to go OGL. Afterall, why create more competition for themselves?

But think, Player A looks for something he can use that DOJ puts out...but nothing intrigues him. In the meanwhile while waiting for something, he gets interested in another game system. Lets now assume there is an OGL, and a 3rd party maker has created a fantasy setting that he finds really intriguing (although he found Turakian Age boring or cliche perhaps). Unfortunately, Player A doesn't have Fantasy Hero because he didn't think he'd play a fantasy game. So there are many opportunities for OGL to create sales as well. I have a hunch DOJ has a philosophy that says, "every dollar my competition earns is a dollar I've lost". Unfortunately this isn't true, as I gave an example of earlier.

I'd love to hear the business meetings that went on as to why they object to the OGL, but it'll never happen :) All I can say is that all business models have a weak side. I for one am worried about DOJ's seeming direction into becoming more and more of a "world builder" company, meaning that by looking at their upcoming releases, the vast majority of them seem to be campaign or setting books instead of Genre Books.

[rjcurrie]

What people seem to be forgetting is that Hero Games offers reasonable licensing terms for folks who want to produce material for the Hero System. All you have to do is contact Hero, make the appropriate arrangements, follow the guidelines they set out. and produce your product. There is already one product out there created under these terms: Lisa Hartjes' Kandris Seal.

I think Hero is doing what they can to try to satisfy all their customers. Back in the 4th edition days, when all that was produced was Champions supplements and genre books (with the exception of two Fantasy Hero companions), people complained that there was no support for the other genres besides Champions. Now that Hero is supporting other genres with setting and other books, people are complaining that there are not enough genre books. No matter what they do, they will not please anybody.

Edit: Oops! That last word should be "everybody". I did not mean the post to sound so negative :)

[Le Schtroumpf]

Originally posted by rjcurrie
No matter what they do, they will not please anybody.

Queue the Extreme soundtrack!

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Dauntless
But herein lies the critical assumption....that if Player A buys Company B's book, that DOJ lost money. Not necessarily.


Not necessarily, no, but I know for a fact that there is one person out there who has stopped buying other game books because of Hero's production schedule. Which means that given competition for Hero material, someone (probably the *other* company, but that's beside the point) would be losing (or not gaining) that one's custom.

It's going to be difficult when Gold Rush puts up some new HERO System material, not to mention interest in their other products. Ah, well, I'll do my best.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by GamePhil
It's going to be difficult when Gold Rush puts up some new HERO System material, not to mention interest in their other products. Ah, well, I'll do my best.
Gold Rush's only real advantage is that their books will be dual or triple statted, so they will be useful for Hero, M&M, and Action! system players.

I agree with everything else you said. I would love to see more licensed product come out for Hero (especially along the lines of modules), but I do understand that many of the few thousand HERO System players can barely keep up with the book a month schedule, let alone when DOJ enters their 3 books per 2 month schedule. The Hero fanbase is just not large enough to support 3+ books per month.

D&D publishers can get away with many books per month because there are a million players. All any one company has to do is catch one-half to one percent of that volume and they will have decent sales. In the HERO System market someone only getting 1% sales would equate to 100 books or less. OGL just does not work when your fanbase does not extend well into the 6 digits.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Monolith
Gold Rush's only real advantage is that their books will be dual or triple statted, so they will be useful for Hero, M&M, and Action! system players.


I'm sorry, I was unclear: it will be difficult for *me* when they come out, because I'll be interested in the San Angelo line, as well as the HERO book a month (2 in some when they ramp up to 18 a year). Not difficult for the two companies: one company putting out liscensed products (and presumably paying something to do so) is not going to be difficult for Hero Games or Gold Rush.

I had some financial concern the month the Kandris Seal came out, too.

As for the rest, I do hope this all doesn't mean that the plans for HERO to rule the Gaming World have not been entirely abandoned, but are just taking the long view :)