A Thought on Speed Chart Order

[rjcurrie]

I was just thinking about the Speed Chart and the use of DEX to determine the order in which characters act.

Currently, characters act on their DEX, but has anyone considered, combining more than one characteristic to determine this order.

For example, maybe INT should be considered in that it reflects how fast a character thinks. So may be the order should be determined by DEX + INT or
(DEX x 2) + INT.

Or, if you're like Derek Heimforth and believe that better looking characters get focus first then perhaps you would include COM. For example, DEX + INT + COM, or (DEX x 3) + (INT x 2) + (COM). Or maybe you think high presence characteristics are more likely to steal focus, so you might use PRE in the calculation.

Perhaps you might even want to add a figured characteristic, INITIATIVE (INIT) that would be calculated using one of the methods above and could be bought up or sold off at a cost of 1 characteristic point.

Are there any advantages to these methods over just using DEX? I'm not really sure but at first glance, it might give a reason to buy the appropriate characteristics at non-breakpoint levels and if you include COM, it would give that characteristic more of a game purpose.

Any thoughts?

[Lord Liaden]

Isn't one of the optional rules in Dark Champions that if characters are tied for DEX to act on the same Segment, the one with the higher INT score goes first? Since INT is supposed to be a measure of mental processing speed that seems reasonable to me. In any case I've used it that way for a long time, IIRC after it was suggested in 4E Dark Champions. It eliminates the time needed for a rolloff to determine order, and makes every point of INT a potentially useful buy.

[rjcurrie]

Isn't one of the optional rules in Dark Champions that if characters are tied for DEX to act on the same Segment, the one with the higher INT score goes first? Since INT is supposed to be a measure of mental processing speed that seems reasonable to me. In any case I've used it that way for a long time, IIRC after it was suggested in 4E Dark Champions. It eliminates the time needed for a rolloff to determine order, and makes every point of INT a potentially useful buy.


Yes, I believe it is -- and I'll admit that the tie-breaking methods are what inspired this idea. However, the thought behind my suggestion is that INT could make up for a lack of physically dexterity. For example, if base the order on DEX + INT, a DEX 23 INT 14 character (total 37) would act before a DEX 26 INT 10 character (total 36).

[Susano]

Hmmm... I've been using INT to break DEX ties. I use it for the same reason as Lord Liaden says, "INT = mental processing speed"). As for things like INT + DEX... while it would create a lot more variety, I think it's just another calculation you'd need to do and it would throw off any long-time players used to DEX = 'when I go.'

[BNakagawa]

If I were to introduce a system like this, I would factor EXP into the calculation.

Everything real-time I can think of favors the seasoned veteran over the rookie. Professional athletes speak of "the game slowing down for them" once they get into a groove somewhere in their second or third season of play. This applies mostly to QBs and other positions where the mental aspect is dominant over the purely physical.

I can't imagine their INT is growing by leaps and bounds. I don't see their DEX increasing, indeed in the more physical sports, it seems to decrease if it does anything at all.

But EXP is one thing that will increase over time. You're not actually getting faster, and things are not moving slower, but you've seen this before, you've done this before and there's no hesitation, no delay and no indecision.

I'm watching Brett Favre carve up the Detroit Lions right now. I think he's got a few EXP in the bank.

[Sean Waters]

Factor in experience by allowing slill levels to be used as +1 DEX for initiative purposes.

[Susano]

One could also argue that's Lightning Reflexes at work.

[BNakagawa]

One could also argue that's Lightning Reflexes at work.

Alternately, one could argue that somebody with not enough experience with the task at hand should have a penalty to their DEX for the purpose of calculating initiative.

What would you call such a mechanic? Rookie Reflexes?

I remember Cyberpunk had a cool stat that you had to roll against in certain circumstances which gave Solos a huge edge in combat (because they always had high Cool stats) and differentiated between someone who was a great physical athlete and somebody who was a seasoned combatant.

[Hyper-Man]

Alternately, one could argue that somebody with not enough experience with the task at hand should have a penalty to their DEX for the purpose of calculating initiative.

What would you call such a mechanic? Rookie Reflexes?

I remember Cyberpunk had a cool stat that you had to roll against in certain circumstances which gave Solos a huge edge in combat (because they always had high Cool stats) and differentiated between someone who was a great physical athlete and somebody who was a seasoned combatant.

The level of experience someone has with combat situations sounds more like a confidence issue and as such seems to be already covered by the Presence rules.

Hudson (from Aliens): "That's it man, game over man, game over! What the $%^& are we gonna do now? What are we gonna do?"

[Sean Waters]

1. Pretty much any game combat is going to be unrealistic as, in real combat, people don't get to create a new character if it all goes Pete Tong. As far as we know.

2. Having said that, I'm pretty sure I saw some cyberpunk game, possibly interlock system, which fostered fuzion (not that we can entirely hold that against it), which suggested that the first time a character was in combat they were at -4, then next time at -3 etc. Maybe that is realistic, maybe not. It certainly was not interesting in game.

3. There is little point in gimmicking the rules to reflect 'combat experience' - it just changes the way people buy their character.

4. There is nothing wrong with that though if it makes you happy.

5. In Hero there is not a system that simulates combat experience, other, possibly, that SPD, or at least one possible sfx of SPD. Maybe a possible sfx of DEX too.

6. If DEX did not do so much this would be less of a problem.

7. No, I don't have a point.

8. :whistle:

[rmccarty4]

5. In Hero there is not a system that simulates combat experience, other, possibly, that SPD, or at least one possible sfx of SPD. Maybe a possible sfx of DEX too.
Emphasis mine.

This is pretty much how my playing group figured it. It wasn't that Centurion had lightning reflexes, & the balance of a gymnast. It was that he was a veteran superhero, who had mastery of every situation, who was a skilled tactician, and who had been in approximately two skedillion superfights. So he took initiative more often than his reflexes might have indicated. Hit opponents more often than his agility might have indicated. Did things that DEX helps more than you might have expected from a 35-year old armored suit brick.

Of course, three Overall levels might have helped in some of that, too.:D

[Derek Hiemforth]

Perhaps you might even want to add a figured characteristic, INITIATIVE (INIT) that would be calculated using one of the methods above and could be bought up or sold off at a cost of 1 characteristic point.
(snip)
Any thoughts?I've got a homebrewed RPG (well, really more of an eclectic collection of RPG concepts) that I tinker with from time to time. One of the concepts in that game (brazenly stolen from the DC Heroes RPG) is the idea of dividing characteristics into Functions and Spheres (of influence). The Functions are Power, Action, Reaction, Health, and Interaction. The Spheres are Physical, Mental, and Mystical. So there are 15 attributes total... one of each of the five Functions under each of the three Spheres. Like so:

http://rhinobunny.com/images/attributes.jpg

For each Function, its three attributes can be summed or averaged if you need/want a measure of the character's overall ability in that Function. For initiative, it's determined by summing the Reaction attributes. so Initiative = Reflexes + Perception + Intuition.

Perhaps a similar idea could be used in HERO, by summing DEX, INT, and PRE.

[Sean Waters]

I've got a homebrewed rpg too (wouldn;t you just know it). It is full of holes and I never have the time to fill them, but one idea I was really pleased with was this:

When attacking someone, you indicate youe combat approach: opportunistic, aggressive or defensive. You roll to hit and the 'combat approach' determines the result; aggressive tends to do more damage, defensive tends to make you harder to hit. Opportunistic...well...whenever you roll an atatck you get several results, one of which is how long the attack takes, which determines when you can next attack. So, 'initiative' starts at 0 and you count up. No rounds/turns etc, you just keep counting. After intiial initiative (I'll not trouble you with that here) your roll and combat approach indicate how long the attack takes: say it has a base +10, but you roll really well, it might (on this attack) only take until +6. This means that you can never be quite sure that you are going to be the next one to attack.

Not easy to adapt to Hero because of the whole PS12 thing, but you could do this:

Combat starts on Segment 12. Make a dex roll, and subtract the level of success or failure (so if you needed 13- and rolled an 8, you have 5 levels of success and start combat on phase 12-5=7).

Each subsequent attack takes place after (20-SPD segments) modified by your level of success or failure in your last attack attempt.

Combat time wuold become a lot more abstract and the idea comcentractes o 'combat flow' rather than a strict temporal analogue. Anyway, it's a thought...

[SteveZilla]

Nobody has mentioned EGO yet. What about using EGO in some of these sytems? It's already in Hero System, and *does* determine initiative for purely Mental Combat.

[steamteck]

Nobody has mentioned EGO yet. What about using EGO in some of these sytems? It's already in Hero System, and *does* determine initiative for purely Mental Combat.


I never got the logic in that. To me EGO is like mental version of strength. Shouldn't Intelligence determine mental speed?

[McCoy]

Alternately, one could argue that somebody with not enough experience with the task at hand should have a penalty to their DEX for the purpose of calculating initiative.

What would you call such a mechanic? Rookie Reflexes?
I'm sure the military has a phrase for it, but hunters refer to "Buck Fever," having a shot lied up but being unable to pull the trigger.

IIRC as late as WWII almost half of recruits went through their first combat without firing a shot.

[Sean Waters]

You could purchase a psychological limitation - reduced OCV in combat, or even unable to attack without an EGO roll - and then use XP to buy this off as you became more combat aware and experienced.

[Sidume]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Susano
One could also argue that's Lightning Reflexes at work.

Alternately, one could argue that somebody with not enough experience with the task at hand should have a penalty to their DEX for the purpose of calculating initiative.

You could purchase a psychological limitation - reduced OCV in combat, or even unable to attack without an EGO roll - and then use XP to buy this off as you became more combat aware and experienced.
__________________


I would think few players would create characters that were already limited. To show it as "Experience" it could be bought as: Lightning Reflexes, Requires skill roll (Tactics, PS: Football QB, etc.)

[Maur]

Right, but just because it is the first combat of the game for that character doesn't make it the first time they have ever been in a fight. Should those characters be penalized as well? That is really just background filler and Psych Lims on the character chosen by the player to have as an effect or as part of the player doing ROLE-playing instead of ROLL-playing as the numbers are really part of the metagame as a way to measure one character vs another.

[zornwil]

I was just thinking about the Speed Chart and the use of DEX to determine the order in which characters act.

Currently, characters act on their DEX, but has anyone considered, combining more than one characteristic to determine this order.

For example, maybe INT should be considered in that it reflects how fast a character thinks. So may be the order should be determined by DEX + INT or
(DEX x 2) + INT.

Or, if you're like Derek Heimforth and believe that better looking characters get focus first then perhaps you would include COM. For example, DEX + INT + COM, or (DEX x 3) + (INT x 2) + (COM). Or maybe you think high presence characteristics are more likely to steal focus, so you might use PRE in the calculation.

Perhaps you might even want to add a figured characteristic, INITIATIVE (INIT) that would be calculated using one of the methods above and could be bought up or sold off at a cost of 1 characteristic point.

Are there any advantages to these methods over just using DEX? I'm not really sure but at first glance, it might give a reason to buy the appropriate characteristics at non-breakpoint levels and if you include COM, it would give that characteristic more of a game purpose.

Any thoughts?
It helps Batman types, those who rest on DEX and INT and aren't as powered-oriented, or also works as you say for what Derek suggests. Really you could make it dependent on a combo of characteristics and this will always advantage those who invest more in chars than in powers or such. Especially if you stay away from STR or EGO which have a lot of other utility.

[Maur]

Shadowrun does this by mixing Quickness (dex/speed) with Intelligence to create a Reaction attribute that can also be boosted. So your initiative is based on your Initiative dice + Reaction attribute.

[SteveZilla]

I never got the logic in that. To me EGO is like mental version of strength. Shouldn't Intelligence determine mental speed?

Compare two characters, one with a high EGO and low INT and a character with the opposite. I would think the one with high EGO would be less "rattled" by all that combat entails and be able to act quicker than his counterpart.

Just reaching a decision is not enough. One has to have the will to carry it out without hesitation.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I would think the one with high EGO would be less "rattled" by all that combat entails and be able to act quicker than his counterpart.This sounds more like PRE to me than EGO. I associate PRE with unflappability.

[sbarron]

I've always been partial to ties going simultaneously. Order can only be broken down so far before it becomes, in effect, simultaneous. It just seems right to me. YMMV! :thumbup:

[CTaylor]

I go by speed, dex, then if there's a tie, the points spent on speed (some characters are slowly buying theirs up), then a die roll.

[zornwil]

I've always been partial to ties going simultaneously. Order can only be broken down so far before it becomes, in effect, simultaneous. It just seems right to me. YMMV! :thumbup:
I did all actions in a Segment as simultaneous in my home games, with the exception that defensive stuff could normally kick in first with a DEX roll.