reverse vulnerability

[CTaylor]

There is an effect in several different fantasy settings that I'm having a difficult time working up in Hero. It's somewhat powerful but not as powerful as the cost ends up being for what I'm working on.

The effect is this: when certain kinds of spells are cast on a target, they are more effective.

Examples:
A paladin puts a blessing on his ally that makes all healing spells increased in effect
A warlock puts a curse on a target that increases damage taken by adjustment magic
A wizard puts a spell on himself that increases defensive magic
A priest curses a target so that they suffer damage each time they hit someone else

Now, the detrimental one could in theory be built with a transformation attack that gives the victim a temporary vulnerability, but we're talking 70 or more active points just to make certain spells hit a little harder, which seems a bit excessive.

As for the beneficial effects, I'm not exactly sure how to build those, I guess you could put a continual heal on someone that only goes off when someone casts a heal on them, but we're talking a pretty huge effect. Any thoughts?

[Doc Democracy]

The transform could 'provide' the recipient of the spell with a VPP that is cosmic, with no conscious control. Instead it adds to whatever type of magic it is sensitive to - adding to it and making it more effective.


Doc

[JmOz]

Tricky builds, will think about them later, but if you want to go with the transform version, try something akin to

1d6 Major Transform, Contuinous, uncontrolable, 0 End, spell will take a couple min to finish the transform, for the cost of 45 Active points...

[runescience]

could you do that with an aid spell, where the aid is effectly bestowing a pool of some sort on the intended?

[CTaylor]

I think the Transform build is the worst possible choice for this particular effect. I mean, sure it can do it, but it can model every effect: Minor transformation for a punch; target now has reduced stun and body!

The Curse power I suggested a while back would simulate the negative effect, may be a "blessing" effect is in order as well.

[runescience]

A drain would do it. how bout a drain with a trigger, for curses,
and a aid for the blessings.

[Maccabe]

I agree with runescience. Make it a Drain / Aid (Body) :eg:

Paladin's blessing AID (Body) Only when healed by others
Warlocks curse DRAIN (Body) When attacked with adjustment powers
Wizards Defense spell AID (Body) LINKED to defensive powers/spells
Priest curse Drain (Body) Only when target attacks another

[CTaylor]

Problem with Aid is that it's not really a heal. The aided points go away after a while, and stack on top of points you already have. And if you use a continuous heal effect that has its own problems with range and so on.

Drain could work, although it doesn't really simulate what the effect is. If the concept is "any of x special effect of spells" for example you have problems of a Body drain going off when you use a flash.

[Doc Democracy]

I think the Transform build is the worst possible choice for this particular effect. I mean, sure it can do it, but it can model every effect: Minor transformation for a punch; target now has reduced stun and body!

The Curse power I suggested a while back would simulate the negative effect, may be a "blessing" effect is in order as well.


While transform can do everything, there are some things that cannot be done any other way.

Even with the trnsform I suggested there is still the problem of making the effect fit the proposed SFX. If you wanted something to add to any heal done on the character could you always be certain that the healing would be to STUN or BODY, would restoring lost stats also count? If so, you need to deliver the recipient of the spell with something that will react to the situation.

Bestowing a limited VPP ensures that every effect that comes the way of the character can be accommodated and enhanced...

Transform is the only way to bestow a VPP on someone.

Doc

[CTaylor]

I think I'm going to have to settle to the idea that there's really no good way to build these effects in Hero and thus maybe there ought to be a mechanic added for them in any new edition.

[Doc Democracy]

I think I'm going to have to settle to the idea that there's really no good way to build these effects in Hero and thus maybe there ought to be a mechanic added for them in any new edition.

So you going to go to the rules forums and suggest how such a mechanic might work - costs etc?

I know at least one person that would be interested in discussing it and a number of people who will test the concept in the interests of Hero system purity for you...

Doc

[CTaylor]

Well the first half would probably be my Curse power I suggested a while back but for the other half I'm not sure: a power that enhances other powers (the "reverse vulnerability" concept) I don't know what that would look like. For it to be a useful part of the toolkit it would need to have a broader range of effects other than "makes other powers work better" I would think.

[ghost-angel]

Aid; Usable By Other; Delayed Effect and possibly Differing Modifiers.
or
Aid; Usable By Other; Time Delay and possibly Differing Modifiers.

The Delayed Effect and Time Delay are different approaches to overcoming the need for Line Of Sight to maintain the UBO Advantage. The Aid is bestowed, and receiver then activates the Aid: The Delayed Effect allows them to "store" that Aid until they activate it when a Healing Spell is applied / The Time Delay allows them to say "Aid takes effect when a Healing Spell is applied.

[Curufea]

What about some kind of Environmental Control?

[sbarron]

Examples:
A paladin puts a blessing on his ally that makes all healing spells increased in effect
A warlock puts a curse on a target that increases damage taken by adjustment magic
A wizard puts a spell on himself that increases defensive magic
A priest curses a target so that they suffer damage each time they hit someone elseOk, I look at these spells, and I don't think they are actually all that similar. Looking for a unifying power to represent all of them doesn't appear to work. So, I'm going to go through each in turn and tell you how I'd do it.

A paladin puts a blessing on his ally that makes all healing spells increased in effect

In the case of the blessing, the one providing the blessing is healing the target, but delaying the effect until someone else casts a healing spell. And since delayed effect is actually for the casting character, trigger becomes the obvious choice to model this effect.

Blessed Healing: Healing BODY 1d6, Trigger (Only works after another healing spell is cast on character, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Blessed healing fades after 1 month; +1) (20 Active Points)

The character performing the blessing has to invest END into the Triggered power. The more END he invests, the more often the blessing will work. I've put a 1 month limit on this, just because I thought that made sense. You can adjust as you see fit.

A warlock puts a curse on a target that increases damage taken by adjustment magic

Ok, increasing damage taken by adjustment magic. This could be done by lowering the PD/ED of the character, but only vs. adjustment magic. It could also be done by lowering the characters Power Defense, if adjustment magic is talking about "Adjustment powers." Lastly, it could be done with Transform, creating a character vulnerable to adjustment attacks. I realize this isn't sexy, but without knowing more about your campaign, its hard to define something for this.

A wizard puts a spell on himself that increases defensive magic"

At first blush, this appears to be simply additional PD/ED. It seems that would work against everything but adjustment attacks, flash attacks, and stuff like that, wouldn't it? It could be in the form of a force field, armor, or just additional PD/ED, that only activates when defensive spells are cast.

A priest curses a target so that they suffer damage each time they hit [i]someone else

Flagellation: Drain BODY 1/2d6, Trigger is character hitting another living being with the intent to cause harm (activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Trigger can expire (Curse magic fades after 1 month); +3/4) (9 Active Points)

Like Blessed Healing above, the character would have to invest enough END into this power to keep it working more than one time. Because its a Body Drain, repeated use could be very dangerous. Since it is only a curse, and probably more intended to teach a lesson, I think making it a Stun Drain makes more sense. Plus, you do twice as much Stun as you could could Body, and would reliably always hurt the cursed character. Using Body, this power wouldn't work 1/3 of the time, because you'd need to do 2 character points to actually deduct Body.

[Hugh Neilson]

A paladin puts a blessing on his ally that makes all healing spells increased in effect

In the case of the blessing, the one providing the blessing is healing the target, but delaying the effect until someone else casts a healing spell. And since delayed effect is actually for the casting character, trigger becomes the obvious choice to model this effect.

Blessed Healing: Healing BODY 1d6, Trigger (Only works after another healing spell is cast on character, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Blessed healing fades after 1 month; +1) (20 Active Points)

The character performing the blessing has to invest END into the Triggered power. The more END he invests, the more often the blessing will work. I've put a 1 month limit on this, just because I thought that made sense. You can adjust as you see fit.

I like this model.

A warlock puts a curse on a target that increases damage taken by adjustment magic

Ok, increasing damage taken by adjustment magic. This could be done by lowering the PD/ED of the character, but only vs. adjustment magic. It could also be done by lowering the characters Power Defense, if adjustment magic is talking about "Adjustment powers." Lastly, it could be done with Transform, creating a character vulnerable to adjustment attacks. I realize this isn't sexy, but without knowing more about your campaign, its hard to define something for this.

What about a Triggered adjustment power with the +1/4 "any power of one SFX" being "Any power which strikes the character"?

A wizard puts a spell on himself that increases defensive magic"

At first blush, this appears to be simply additional PD/ED. It seems that would work against everything but adjustment attacks, flash attacks, and stuff like that, wouldn't it? It could be in the form of a force field, armor, or just additional PD/ED, that only activates when defensive spells are cast.

Maybe a triggered Aid to all defensive magic targeting the character?

A priest curses a target so that they suffer damage each time they hit [i]someone else

Flagellation: Drain BODY 1/2d6, Trigger is character hitting another living being with the intent to cause harm (activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Trigger can expire (Curse magic fades after 1 month); +3/4) (9 Active Points)

Like Blessed Healing above, the character would have to invest enough END into this power to keep it working more than one time. Because its a Body Drain, repeated use could be very dangerous. Since it is only a curse, and probably more intended to teach a lesson, I think making it a Stun Drain makes more sense. Plus, you do twice as much Stun as you could could Body, and would reliably always hurt the cursed character. Using Body, this power wouldn't work 1/3 of the time, because you'd need to do 2 character points to actually deduct Body.

You could make it 0 END to avoid the need to pump large quantities of END at the outset.

[CTaylor]

The heal delay idea would roughly work, sort of, but since you have to reset a trigger every time it goes off, there's some problems with it. You can't just define the trigger as "automatically resets once used" as far as I know.

There's no good way to do the warlock's curse, especially since few people have power defense, and adjustment powers by default ignore pd and ed.

The mage buff would work to enhance all other magic effects, it has no effect on its own. As in it does nothing until a defensive buff is cast on him. This could be modeled with Aid, in theory (aid all four of defensive powers at once, etc).

The body drain effect has problems with resetting triggers and such.

[Nightshade]

In lieu of triggers, use Continuing Charges lasting one month each and put a limitation "Only when X type action takes place" (value based on how common action is). So if there are a fair number of healers, perhaps the healing buff is -0 or -1/4, but if healing magics aren't common, maybe it's -1/2 or more.

Nightshade

[sbarron]

The heal delay idea would roughly work, sort of, but since you have to reset a trigger every time it goes off, there's some problems with it. You can't just define the trigger as "automatically resets once used" as far as I know.Actually, Hero Designer provided the exact language "Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates." I didn't know that was an option either, but it's there, and seems to work great for this type of power.

[Hugh Neilson]

The heal delay idea would roughly work, sort of, but since you have to reset a trigger every time it goes off, there's some problems with it. You can't just define the trigger as "automatically resets once used" as far as I know.

Trigger was significantly expanded in 5er based on a Digital Hero article Steve Long had written on Trigger. This was included as an option, at a higher cost.

There's no good way to do the warlock's curse, especially since few people have power defense, and adjustment powers by default ignore pd and ed.

Well, there's always Transform (from character to character with vulnerability to adjustment powers). A complex build would be a Triggered Succor, any one adjustment power, Triggered by someone using an adjustment power against the target. As soon as that enemy mage starts casting his adjustment spell, the Curse kicks in and Succors the mage's adjustment spell. Once it hits the curse victim, the succor drops.

[sbarron]

There's no good way to do the warlock's curse, especially since few people have power defense, and adjustment powers by default ignore pd and ed.I'm struggling with this one, too. But making characters vulnerable to "adjustment" powers really is a transform. The term Adjustment Power is a meta-game term, right? Would you attempt to model something similar that affected "Attack Powers," or "Body Affecting Powers?" These are the exact same level of meta-groupings that "Adjustment Powers" comes from, and would suffer from the exact same problems in trying to model a power that wasn't a broad, over-arching transform. If you don't want to use transform, I'd suggest narrowing the focus down to something that is more readily definable...like transform attacks, drain attacks, physical attacks, etc.

All that said, I've got 2 new ideas for you. This first one is how I'd do a vulnerability to transform, without using a transform...

Warlock's Mutability Curse: Drain BODY 1 1/2d6, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Month; +2) (45 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge which Recovers every 1 Month (-2 1/4), Only to determine effect of Transforms (-2), Spell (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) (7 Real Cost).

This Curse only makes characters more susceptable to Transforms. It can only be cast on one person at a time, and it lasts roughly a month. In my game, I'd probably lower the cost to 5 pts. I just think that's more in line with what it'd be worth in my game, since transforms aren't all that common.

Another idea, and since you're the GM this is certainly viable, is to allow Power Defense to be drained into the negatives...so if a character's Power Defense gets drained into the negatives, rather than helping a character defend against an adjustment attack, it actually causes them to take additional damage. I realize this is a stretch, but I think it would simulate the effect you're looking for nicely.

Warlock's Adjustment Curse: Drain Power Defense 1d6, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Month; +2) (30 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge which Recovers every 1 Month (-2 1/4), Spell (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) (6 Real Cost).

An example for its use would look like...

Character A gets hit with Warlock's Adjustment Curse. He has 0 Power Defense. The Warlock roles a 4 on his 1d6 Power Defense Drain. Character A now has -4 Power Defense.

Character A is later hit with a Transfer attack, Tranfering his STUN to a Necromancer's STUN. The Necromancer roles his 1d6 Transfer damage, and roles a 6. However, as Characecter A has a -4 Power Defense, his character actually loses 10 STUN, not the 6 that was rolled. And just to complete the effect, I'd probably rule that the Necromances gets the whole 10 STUN, since "the curse" is supposed to strengthen his attack.

[LoresLost]

A Really Minor Quibble, should not your custom limitation read "Only to determine affect of Negative Adjustments and Transforms" ???



Warlock's Adjustment Curse: Drain Power Defense 1d6, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Month; +2) (30 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge which Recovers every 1 Month (-2 1/4), Only to determine affect of Transforms (-2), Spell (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) (6 Real Cost).
An example for its use would look like...

Character A gets hit with Warlock's Adjustment Curse. He has 0 Power Defense. The Warlock roles a 4 on his 1d6 Power Defense Drain. Character A now has -4 Power Defense.

Character A is later hit with a Transfer attack, Tranfering his STUN to a Necromancer's STUN. The Necromancer roles his 1d6 Transfer damage, and roles a 6. However, as Characecter A has a -4 Power Defense, his character actually loses 10 STUN, not the 6 that was rolled. And just to complete the effect, I'd probably rule that the Necromances gets the whole 10 STUN, since "the curse" is supposed to strengthen his attack.

[sbarron]

A Really Minor Quibble, should not your custom limitation read "Only to determine affect of Negative Adjustments and Transforms" ???I don't think so. I don't think you can acquiesce to Transfroms, can you? So whether it is good or bad for the character shouldn't matter (unless you want it to matter, of course).

As far the the adjustments spell, I removed the language about "only for Transforms," because that was accidentally left over from the previous template. That limit doesn't apply for that spell.

But in truth, the limits are not my worries. Does the concept make sense to you? Would you allow it in your game?

[CTaylor]

The idea I've been toying with is a blanket adjustment power that lets you either increase or decrease the effect of other powers (I had a great name but now I've forgotten it).

It would have to be built somewhat like Damage Reduction, with the shift given in steps. It is, in effect, a sort of reverse damage reduction.

This could look like:

x1 1/2 effect = 20 points
x2 effect = 40 points
x2 1/2 effect = 60 points
etc.

That would work on one power and only that one power (heal stun, drain flash defense, energy blast). Defensive powers would have half the effect. The standard adjustment modifiers wouldn't really work here because they're a bit too powerful - in fact one could argue they're just too powerful period.

Instead of being like an adjustment power that affects more than one power at a time, this would be a power that can work on more than one power ever.

I'd see it more like this:

+1/2: two powers of the same special effect
+1: four powers of the same special effect
+1 1/2: any powers of the same special effect
+2: any powers from any special effect

So you could give someone vulnerability (or increased effect) to a single power of x1 1/2 effect for 20 points. You could give someone increased effect to any healing magic for +1 1/2 advantage, or 50 points.

This should cost Endurance, have no range, and it probably would have a range, since that would jack the cost up to give someone this independent of the person granting the ability.

Now we run into a question: does this work like the disadvantage (increases before defenses) or like body damage with hit locations (increases after defenses)?

[sbarron]

I'm all for changing the system to fit your game. But this is just wandering too far off the reservation for me. You're creating a very complex rule. It doesn't seem very intuitive and the costs seem to be way out of whack for the benefits. Also, for the points that you're talking now, Transform again seems to be a viable option, doesn't it?

Good luck CTaylor. I hope you find what you're looking for... :thumbup:

[Maethalion]

[quote]The effect is this: when certain kinds of spells are cast on a target, they are more effective.

Examples:
A paladin puts a blessing on his ally that makes all healing spells increased in effect
A warlock puts a curse on a target that increases damage taken by adjustment magic
A wizard puts a spell on himself that increases defensive magic
A priest curses a target so that they suffer damage each time they hit someone else
[/qoute]

The Paladin Blessing is simple:
"Aid" for Healing Magic. That way the spells are cast at a higher active point level.
As is the Wizard's Spell:
"Aid" for Defensive Magic (FF, FW, Armor)

The Priest's curse could be:
"HKA", continuous (so you only roll to hit once, but it hits lots of times), uncontrolled (END or something to last X amount of time), triggered (by the attack, immediatly resets).
So you're hitting them with an attack that only activates when the other person attacks.

The Warlock's curse would really have to be a major transform to a vulnerability. Yes, it's expensive. But so is 2x Body on a Major transform. OUCH. No PC is going to want to go up against that!!!

[runescience]

Doing some reading on hero websites. I came across something on

surbrook.devermore.net/whitewolf/WODHunter.hmtl

If you look at section C) Redemption:

He has a power called Insinuate - " with this edge, the hunter can inflict profound sorrow, guilt, etc on a monster, making it harder for him to attack the hunter. Also, above that is Payback/frailty.

On the flip side, the boons: above those i just mentioned, you can find Donate... lending physical capacity etc.

[CTaylor]

The reason i don't like transformation is because it's so total and while you could give someone a vulnerability with it, that's a pretty huge cost and construction for such a limited concept. Basically you could turn someone into a toad for the same cost as making attacks hit slightly harder, and that seems kind of excessive.

As for the costs, I'm just throwing numbers out there, not coming up with a rule. I was hoping people might, you know discuss the concept.

[sbarron]

The reason i don't like transformation is because it's so total and while you could give someone a vulnerability with it, that's a pretty huge cost and construction for such a limited concept. Basically you could turn someone into a toad for the same cost as making attacks hit slightly harder, and that seems kind of excessive.

As for the costs, I'm just throwing numbers out there, not coming up with a rule. I was hoping people might, you know discuss the concept.So long as you are only talking about a small effect as a result of the curse, then why not call it a cosmetic transform? Would that still be too many points? How big of an impact do you envision the curse or blessing causing? From my initial reading, I imagined an extra couple of points from an adjustment attack.

Turning them into a toad is clearly a major transformation. Giving them a small vulnerability to adjustment attacks (which are generally pretty rare) could easily be considered cosmetic. You could get a 10d6 transform for 10 pts pretty easy...

Warlock's Curse: Cosmetic Transform 10d6 (standard effect: 30 points) (Transform person into person with x 1.5 vulnerability to Adjustment Attacks, Remove Curse by kissing toad) (50 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge which Recovers every 1 Month (-2 1/4), IAF (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

[sbarron]

And if you are hell bent on not using transform, then just create a power that does what you want, and set a price for it that you think is reasonable. Just because Hero is a toolkit doesn't mean every tool is going to be found within it. If you don't like transform, or Aid, or any of the other book rule options presented, then just make something up. Like this...

Warlock's Curse: Character's afflicted with this curse take an extra 3 points of damage/effect from all adjustment attacks for the duration of the curse. The curse generally lasts for 1 month. The Cursing character can only cast this spell on 1 person at a time, and recovers the ability to curse on the full moon following his last cursing. (Real Cost: 5 points)

[Doc Democracy]

The reason i don't like transformation is because it's so total and while you could give someone a vulnerability with it, that's a pretty huge cost and construction for such a limited concept. Basically you could turn someone into a toad for the same cost as making attacks hit slightly harder, and that seems kind of excessive.

As for the costs, I'm just throwing numbers out there, not coming up with a rule. I was hoping people might, you know discuss the concept.

Its always nice when people discuss the concept. :)

However, if you present numbers then there is a sub-section of all Hero gamers brains that drill down into those numbers! It's tradition!

If you are suggesting a new power it is usually a good idea to have thoughts on how much you think that power should cost becasue people will comment on cost as they want to make sure that the benefits you propose will not unbalance the system unduly.

Will try to post more productively later.


Doc

[PhilFleischmann]

Oh boy! Another chance to plug my idea! I've suggested this same idea below many times on these boards, and here is yet another application for it. I've been using this idea for years, and find it works quite well. It's balanced and reflects the utility better than Transform.

The effect is this: when certain kinds of spells are cast on a target, they are more effective.

Examples:
A paladin puts a blessing on his ally that makes all healing spells increased in effect
OK, this one doesn't use my idea. You can do it as others have suggested: Healing with a resetting Trigger that goes off when other healing spells are used on the target.

Or, you can do it as Aid to Healing, UBO (maybe with a Trigger, or maybe even with Damage Shield) - that is, the Aid comes from the target, and effects the Healing spell of anyone who heals him.

A warlock puts a curse on a target that increases damage taken by adjustment magic
OK, this one uses my idea (sorry to keep you in suspence). The basic premise is to thing of Disadvantages as "negative powers". Then treat them as such with regard to Adjustment Powers. In this case, you want to bestow a Disadvantage - Vulnerability to adjustment magic - on the target. Since a Disad is a "negative power," use a Drain! How many points is the Vuln worth? Well that depends on how common "adjustment magic" is. Assuming it's Uncommon, 1.5x effect would be a 5-point Disad, and 2x effect would be a 10-point Disad. So if you achieve 10 pips of effect on the Drain dice, you give the target the Disadvantage: Vulnerability to Adjustment Magic, 2x Effect. It then fades like a normal Drain. And you can buy a slower fade rate.

[CTaylor]

That's an interesting concept, would take some tweaking but it could be useful.

The more I think about that the more I like it. Getting a character down to a really useful point of disadvantage would be fairly expensive but it would add a mechanic to the game that's lacking (which was partly why I did this post to begin with).

You'd have to establish minimums for the disadvantages. With skill levels, you can't buy a combat skill level under 5 points if you put modifiers on it - to keep you from buying 2 point levels and stacking limitations that would break the system. The logic is this: the cost breaks are because they are very limited, specific parts of a power (+1 with my dad's broadsword) but if you build it as a power you can avoid that limitation too easily and thus negate the reason the break exists.

Disadvantages established this way would require the same kind of philosophy, since what is "uncommon" normally might be "very common" if you're giving them the disadvantage. Sure, having a vulnerability to fire-based sight flash attacks is a pretty narrow category, but if you have just such an attack and can give everyone that disadvantage it stops being rare.

You'd have to consider all disadvantages to have the highest frequency as a base number. Thus Psychological limitations would always be Very Common, Hunted would always be very frequently, and so on. So that minimum cost for the disadvantage would prevent cheap end runs around the power.

That way, to give someone vulnerability to all shadow-based magic, you'd have to start at Very Common (-15 points) and add the level of vulnerability to it (x1 1/2). This would require 15 character points of drain; a fair amount at 10 points per D6 or per 3 points; you'd need 5D6 or 50 points at minimum just to get a reliable one-shot effect, and a cumulative effect would take a while to establish. Add the delayed fade and range to that and you've got a fairly expensive power for a fairly potent effect.

The more I think about this, the more I like it, and suggest you put it in the Hero System Discussion forum.

[PhilFleischmann]

There was more, but I was running late and had to leave and cut my last post short. Here's the rest:

A wizard puts a spell on himself that increases defensive magic
This would work pretty much like the first example, but could be even simpler: any sort of Defensive Power, "Only When Other Defensive Magic is used on him."

A priest curses a target so that they suffer damage each time they hit someone else
This would use the "bestow Disad as a negative power" mechanic that I proposed, but would be a Susceptibility, instead of a Vulnerability. He takes X damage from hitting someone else. And "hitting someone in combat" should probably be considered Very Common (or at the very least Common). So 15 points, +5 per additional d6/10 active points, Instant Effect.

And one other very important thing I forgot to mention before:
Vulnerability, Susceptibility, and Dependence are unlike all other Disadvantages in that they are the only ones that deal directly with the character taking damage. Therefore they should be considered "Defensive Disadvantages" or if you will, "negative Defensive Powers". This means that the total on the effect dice is halved, just like with an Adjustment Power affecting any Defensive Power. This is important for balance.

Getting a character down to a really useful point of disadvantage would be fairly expensive but it would add a mechanic to the game that's lacking (which was partly why I did this post to begin with).
It is pretty powerful, so it should be expensive.

You'd have to establish minimums for the disadvantages. With skill levels, you can't buy a combat skill level under 5 points if you put modifiers on it - to keep you from buying 2 point levels and stacking limitations that would break the system.
Well, the natural minimum is the normal minimum of the Disad. And greater amounts of effect can accumulate for bigger Disadvantages, the same way each pip of Drain INT subtracts 1 point of INT. Of course, Disads generally will only come in 5-point increments.

Oh, and it may be necessary to impose a maximum effect, like there is on Aid, when using Drain to bestow a disad. In fact, I like to reverse the Aid/Drain limits when dealing with disads: There is no limit to how much disad you can Aid away (down to 0 = no disad); and the maximum disad you can Drain (cause) is the maximum you can roll on the dice, and you can buy this up further, like you can with other Adjustment Powers.

And one more thing: Healing is a special case that obviously has to be monitored for concept- and plot-ruining results. Using this idea, you could buy Healing vs Physical Limitation: Blind, and actually cure people's blindness, but it shouldn't be allowed to ruin the whole shtick of a character like Daredevil, for example.

Disadvantages established this way would require the same kind of philosophy, since what is "uncommon" normally might be "very common" if you're giving them the disadvantage. Sure, having a vulnerability to fire-based sight flash attacks is a pretty narrow category, but if you have just such an attack and can give everyone that disadvantage it stops being rare.
Very good point! You're absolutely right. No matter how uncommon an attack type or phenomenon is, if the person granting the disad, posesses it, it should be considered Very Common! And it should probably be considered at least Common (if not Very Common), if one of the disad-granter's allies/cohorts/teammates has it.

You'd have to consider all disadvantages to have the highest frequency as a base number. Thus Psychological limitations would always be Very Common, Hunted would always be very frequently, and so on. So that minimum cost for the disadvantage would prevent cheap end runs around the power.
Not necessarily. There's nothing wrong with granting Physical or Psychological Limitation that is only Uncommon. It just means that the disad is less disadvantageous, and therefore it should take fewer points of effect to grant it. Remember that this method can easily be made just as granular as any other Adjustment Power (subject to the granularity of Disadvantages themselves). For example, you could have a Drain that causes PsychLim: Fear of Water. If you score 5 points of effect, that would be an Uncommon/Moderate: he wouldn't want to go swimming and would probably feal uneasy on a boat, but most likely wouldn't care if it was raining. For 10 points of effect, it could be Uncommon/Strong: he'd have to make an EGO roll to keep his nerve on a boat, he might wig out on a submarine. For 15 points of effect, it might be Uncommon/Total: he refuses to even go near a body of water, on a beach he stays well away from the wet sand area, and probably still feels very uncomfortable. At 20 points of effect, it can be a Common/Total: he has to make an EGO roll just to go outside in the rain and feels uneasy indoors when it rains. For 25 points, it's a Very Common/Total: the character will have a hard time just taking a shower or drinking a glass of water. And as I mentioned above, this is subject to the maximum effect rule: If it's a 3d6 Drain: Cause PsychLim: Fear of Water, the maximum effect is 18 pips, so it wouldn't be able to achieve a 20-point fear or more. Assuming average rolls, the first "application" would cause the 10-point disad, and the second would bump it up to the 15-point disad, and that's as high as it could go.

That way, to give someone vulnerability to all shadow-based magic, you'd have to start at Very Common (-15 points) and add the level of vulnerability to it (x1 1/2). This would require 15 character points of drain; a fair amount at 10 points per D6 or per 3 points; you'd need 5D6 or 50 points at minimum just to get a reliable one-shot effect, and a cumulative effect would take a while to establish. Add the delayed fade and range to that and you've got a fairly expensive power for a fairly potent effect.
Exactly! And assuming the Drain has a high enough maximum effect and doesn't fade too quickly, you could even accumulate it further, until it reached a x2 Effect.

It may be that considering all attacks/conditions as Very Common, removes the need for halving the effect vs. "defensive disads."

The more I think about this, the more I like it, and suggest you put it in the Hero System Discussion forum.
Thank you! I'm glad you like it. I've posted about this many times in the forums. You might try searching for the phrase "negative powers" to find more examples. I suppose maybe I should write a Digital Hero article about it.

[CTaylor]

There's nothing wrong with granting Physical or Psychological Limitation that is only Uncommon. It just means that the disad is less disadvantageous, and therefore it should take fewer points of effect to grant it.

Actually I don't have a problem with giving people that frequency, I'm just suggesting that the cost for doing so has to be at a minimum level in the same manner and reasoning that combat skill levels are when modifiers are applied. You can buy a skill level "only with grandpa's obsidian axe" which is a 2 point level, but if you buy that with modifiers, it costs you 5 points.

I haven't thought through completely on the Aid side, it seems like that might be more problems in terms of game balance.

I definitely would want to see a maximum effect rather than a cumulative effect if drains were used this way, however. The structure of Aid seems like a good place to start.

[PhilFleischmann]

I haven't thought through completely on the Aid side, it seems like that might be more problems in terms of game balance.
I don't see how there's any more of a problem with using Aid to temporarily aleviate someone's disad, than there is to temporarily increasing their DEX or other characteristics. Yes, it can potentially be unbalanced, but so can any other construct in the system. The main problem I see is not one of balance, but of plot/story. A character's disads are often the seeds of a plotline for a whole campaign, or at least an individual scenario (such as the example of Daredevil's blindness). So you do have to look at it carefully. To continue with superhero examples (which are the most obvious), it's probably OK to give Superman a pill that makes him immune to kryptonite for a few hours, but it's probably not OK to remove, even temporarily, Spiderman's sense of responsibility.

which suddenly gives me an idea - treat the "core" disads of a character - those that are truly central in defining the character, his personality, motivation, and raison d'etre - as being Inherent (but probably not for any additional points).

[CTaylor]

Well, the reason it becomes problematic is because the mechanic for disadvantages is in place already and well played and tested.

A mechanic for reducing disadvantages has not been, which means it may have some aspects that could be problematic. Basically, since it hasn't been tested, we don't know what unforseen effects or unintended consequences this might have.

However, I was thinking more of it in this way: what happens when you make someone vulnerable to healing powers? How many points is that worth, since it's clearly not a disadvantage but could be in theory built using the Aid power in this manner. It would be a disadvantage no GM would allow but it would follow the same structure and if you could use Aid to alleviate disads, couldn't you use it to give beneficial "disads"?

[PhilFleischmann]

As I said before, I've been using this technique for many years. I know I don't have any status as an official HERO System Playtester, but I've done plenty of playtesting. This isn't just something I came up with the other day to answer your question.

Yes, it can be abused, just like everything else in the system.
Yes, it needs to be looked at by the GM, just like everything else in the system.
But it works if you let it!

However, I was thinking more of it in this way: what happens when you make someone vulnerable to healing powers? How many points is that worth, since it's clearly not a disadvantage but could be in theory built using the Aid power in this manner. It would be a disadvantage no GM would allow but it would follow the same structure and if you could use Aid to alleviate disads, couldn't you use it to give beneficial "disads"?
You answered your own question: "no GM would allow it."
"2x Effect from Healing or Aid" is not a Disadvantage, regardless of whether you're using my "negative power" rule. Sure, a sufficiently drug-addled GM might let it slip by, and might be so brain dead as to allow its continued use. But there's a rule right there in the books: "A Disadvantage that isn't a disadvantage isn't worth any points." And this particular disad, not only isn't disadvantageous, it's actually a Power! For which you should pay points!

Use one of the methods I or others have suggested in this thread for things like that: such as Healing or Aid Triggered to take effect when one of those powers is already being used on the character. Or perhaps a naked advantage UBO, on beneficial Adjustment Powers, that the character can use to make other's healing/aid/etc., stronger on him. Or any of the other methods suggested.

[CTaylor]

OK a GM wouldn't let you take a disadvantage of vulnerability to healing but that's beside the point: I'm looking at using the construction here to make just such a thing. It's along the same lines of hero concepts of the past, and it has the potential to fill gaps in the system. It would be a valuable power: I can make you take increased effect from my magic with this, but it fades over time.