It's Spooky Around here

[mayapuppies]

Hello all,

I have a creature, creatively called a Nightmare, that is spawned whenthere is a horrific tragedy in an area. Over time the area surrounding the Nightmare becomes spookier and spookier. The area tends to enlarge over time, but I figured I'd hand wave that.

I do, however, want to have a write-up for its fear causing effect and i figured that a Drain on EGO and PRE would be appropriate. The concept is that people who enter the area get more and more freaked the loner they spend in the "zone" and even after they leave it takes a long time to get over that feeling.

The effect is centered on the Nightmare and actually will move with it. Luckily, no Nightmare has figured out that it can leave the area of its creation. But in case one does, I'd like the power to follow him around and allow him to not be affected by it.

So here it is, be gentle:

Nightmare Corruption: Drain EGO and PRE 2d6, MegaScale (1" = 1 km; +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Area Of Effect (11" Radius; +1), Based On EGO Combat Value (Mental Defense applies; +1), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Week; +1 3/4) (125 Active Points); Always On (-1/2)
So, near as I can tell, this will be going off every phase or so, I'd like it to only go off once every 24 hours...should I just put a Charge on it? Hmm, wouldn't be able to add the 'Always On' stuff then.

[Nolgroth]

Do you really need to set it to go off every 24 hours? The maximum character points drained is going to be 12 as written. Even if it does hit the characters every Phase, they won't lose more than 12 points (6 EGO, 12 PRE) no matter how many times they are hit.

The only way I can see to actually limit it to once every 24 hours is to put an Extra Time 1 day limitation on it.

If the effect is centered on the Nightmare, you may even toss in a No Range limitation on it. The AoE covers the actual area from the center point.

[Thia Halmades]

Yah, eventually they'll just be standing around terrified (or at least with less EGO and PRE to use) so any additional Mental Attacks or PRE attacks the thing throws will be that much more effective. Anyone with Power Defense will likely be able to ignore it, or at least withstand it for longer (depending). You may also add an additional limitation, "Power fades at standard rate outside of AOE, -1/4" but that's me.

[tancred]

There's no limit to the number of points that can be Drained (5ER, page 151); it's only limited to 2d6 at a time. It will keep Draining as long as the victim is in its Area of Effect.

Maya, would Extra Time on the Power produce the effect you want?
On second thought, probably not, because that would require the victim to be in the area for the whole Extra Time.

Hmm; this is harder than it looked.

Oh, and don't you need Continuous, to make it go off multiple times, without requiring an Attack Action each time?
May want No Range, too, if it's centered on the Nightmare and moves with it.

Cool power; would love to see the write-up for the whole creature when you get this figured out.

[Thia Halmades]

There's no limit to the number of points that can be Drained (5ER, page 151); it's only limited to 2d6 at a time. It will keep Draining as long as the victim is in its Area of Effect.

Tancred, please double check that. I don't have my book in front of me, but an extra Seekrit Santa gift next year says that the Adjustment powers, as a group, are capped by their die totals. In other words, I can stack my effect and stretch out the time, but I can never drain more than my total maximum effect from you.

Yes, they'll suffer the effect so long as they're in the zone, but there is a cap on the total utility.

[mayapuppies]

Ok, need to add No Range to it. Forgot that one. I also need to make sure Thia is either correct or incorrect. If Incorrect then I'm ok, but if he's right about the limit on points I need to find a way to increase the amount of points that can be drained without increasing the amount drained at each draining...

[tancred]

Thia, I double-checked before I posted; didn't want to put my foot in my mouth (a common problem for us goblins).

Absorption, Aid, and Transfer have maximum effects, as it says on 5ER page 106.
(It says there, "Absorption, Aid, and Transfer have maximum effects. These Powers can Adjust a maximum amount of points equal to the maximum amount you can roll on the dice...".)

However, Drain is explicitly NOT capped, as this quote shows:

"There’s no limit to the amount of Character Points a character can Drain from his victim; he may use the same Drain repeatedly on the same target, provided the target still has points left to Drain in the Power or Characteristic (see below regarding negative Characteristics)."

That's the exact words from 5ER page 151.

Hope that helps.

[Bygoneyrs]

You know I think you might want to possibly redesign the effect in this way:


A extremely horrific tragedy occured in a area and it imprints on the area where
the event happened. Somehow the event memory gets anchored to a point of
area, and over times it draws slowly negative energy inwhich to feed on and build
strength. After enough time and energy is gathered, the replay begins to happen
more and more and can be triggered by certain events or situations. If any others
also pass away within that region effected by the horrific tragedy, their soul gets
trapped and their energy adds to the "nightmare" effect. Thus one has the replay
of event(s) that triggered the original nightmare, plus the events of any other deaths,
plus the trapped ghost/spirts of those trapped and in torment as well.

Thus this could feed on itself and become quite nasty if never delalt with. Let give
you a example I would use.

Set in a fantasy city, in a boarding house where the main entrance is off a back alley.
One could say that Ghoul crept out of a sewer, and was hidding in the
shadows of the alley. A family was coming home(Mother/Father/daughter/baby
brother), and the creature attacked out of the darkness jumping on the father
and tearing and wripping his chest and throat out..killing him. The mother
screamed in utter fear holding her todler son and the daughter cried and ran
deeper into the dark alley in fear. The Ghoul turned it's gaze on the mother and
lunged at her knocking her to the ground and grabbing the toddler and bitting
the baby in the back of the neck and tearing off its head and eating some of it.
The mother in utter fear managed to grasp a stick and started beating the Ghoul
with the stick, but the Ghoul dropped the baby and grabbed the woman by the
throat and wripped open her chest and tore out her beating heart and started
eating it.

At about this time a pair of lovers walked out of the boarding house to see what
was happening and the man drew his sword and attacked the Ghoul. It defended
itself and manged the get the upper hand on the man and broke his one arm
then crushed in his jaw and then broke his neck. The woman screamed in fear
and tried to get back into the boarding house and managed to get up the steps
and open the door and was about to pull the door closed when the Ghoul got it's
hand between the door jam and closing door. Having greater strength it wripped
the door out of her hands and grabbed her and dragged her into the alley and
proceeded to wrip and tear at her throat and chest and tore out her heart as
well and started eating it.

Meanwhile the young girl from the first family had stopped crying and stated
to creep along the dark alley along the wall in the hopes to get out of the
deadend alley. She just had to try and get past the Ghoul, so as she crept
along she stopped almost across from the boarding house steps and Ghoul,
and it looked up as it eat directly at her. It howled and charged at her, and
she ran for the main street to get out of the alleyway screaming for help as
she ran. The ghoul being bigger and faster leaped on her from behind and
knocked her to the ground and began tearing at her back with its extremely
sharp claws and teh girl screamed in utter fear and pain.

At about this time the city watch entered the mouth of the alleyway and say
the Ghoul and let loose with crossbow bolts thudding into the creature. Next
they charged the creature and began to attack it and manged to dispatch it
within time. After the Ghoul was dispatched and cut into peaces, the head of
the watch patrol walked over to the girl and found her still alive but fading fast.
He knew full well he had to kill the girl and cut off her head as well as stab her
threw the heart or she would come back as a Ghoul herself. The girl in her
dieing moments kept crying and asking about her parents and little brother, as
the Watch Patrol captain sliced off her head and then stabbed her through the
heart. As he surved the now dead girl and gore, he reached down and picked
up a little carved wooden symbol the girl had worn about her neck before her
head was cut off. The item had been on a simple leather tie, and was covered
in her blood. The Watch Captain then through the item into the air into the
darkness against one of the walls. He heard it hit but never heard it fall...oh well.
It had hit a small roof and fallen into a small hole left by a missing roof tile,
totally out of sight of anyone.

So that night a (6) people had been killed, a whole family (father,mother, baby
brother, and daugher) and two lovers (man and woman), plus a Ghoul had been
dispatched all in the alley. Now the anchor as you can guess was the girls
necklace and the whole drama would play out from time to time as ghostly
images. In time the alley seem to be darker and scarrier in day or night and
always felt strange and cold. Thus on many a moonless night, the sceens would
replay. It would seem that the some things could trigger it, like once a mugging
in the alley did trigger it. The man that was mugged was killed by the thieves
in the alley as they ran away, and from that point too his spirit became trapped
there as well.

So as you can see if lets say 20-30yrs goes by, the site cool develope a real
scarry reputation and the many different events could and would feed on each
other making this "nightmare" region if left unchecked a really bad place. Plenty
of room to expand and play off of too.

Penn

PS: I wrote this at work so this is not my best effort but you get the point!

[Thia Halmades]

Thia, I double-checked before I posted; didn't want to put my foot in my mouth (a common problem for us goblins).

Absorption, Aid, and Transfer have maximum effects, as it says on 5ER page 106.
(It says there, "Absorption, Aid, and Transfer have maximum effects. These Powers can Adjust a maximum amount of points equal to the maximum amount you can roll on the dice...".)

However, Drain is explicitly NOT capped, as this quote shows:

"There’s no limit to the amount of Character Points a character can Drain from his victim; he may use the same Drain repeatedly on the same target, provided the target still has points left to Drain in the Power or Characteristic (see below regarding negative Characteristics)."

That's the exact words from 5ER page 151.

Hope that helps.

Hang on. I have to mark this on a calendar.

"Thia... was... wron..." nope, can't ... quite... get it... w...r...o...n...g.

That'll *pant, pant* have to do... *pant* ;)

Rep to you, my little gobbo rules lawyering ninja!

[mayapuppies]

ROFL Thanks Tancred.

Bygoneyrs: That's actually a cool write-up and concept, but in order for it to fit a bit of backstory I need it to be able to fade away over time. But there is still a taint that "draws" bad things to happen around it and once enough of that occurs it reawakens.

[teh bunneh]

Would Explosion be better that AoE? That way, the effect gets worse as you travel toward the epicenter...

Just a random thought. :)

[mayapuppies]

Oooh, yeah, that sounds good.

[Tonio]

You could have the effect not be continuous or persistent, but be No Conscious Control (that is, the Nightmare can't choose when to use it). That, plus having the power draw END from an END battery with just enough END in it for one use, that takes a whole day to get back to full, would, I believe, simulate a power that goes off every day. Since you'd be building it as an AOE, No Range, I'd rule that BOECV, Mental Def Applies would be a Limitation; at best a -0 Limitation, since Mental Def is probably more common than Power Def. Having it be based on ECV won't make it easier to hit, since it's AOE anyway, so you're not really gaining anything.

Depending on how you want it to work, you might also consider a Major Transform to give people in the area a Psych Lim: Freaked Out, Afraid, etc. Use the "Partial Transform" advantage. That'd give you a Cosmetic Transform, followed by a Minor one, and finally a Major one, as you do more "BODY" (well, EGO in this case, since it'd be a Mental Transform) to the target, making them more Freaked Out and Afraid. Have the Transform heal normally, and once they leave the area, they'll start healing back the "damage" and go back to normal after a while.

Hm, the more I think about that solution, the more I like it!

[Thia Halmades]

I submit the NCC doesn't apply here; this is clearly a case of Always On. He spreads the effect by being in the place at all; NCC is really a GM Plot Device made manifest.

[Nolgroth]

Nice catch on the Drain Tancred. Nasty power. Hope you got some sort of Holy Aura counter to this or there are going to be a bunch of gibbering PCs in a couple of days time.

I think that worrying too much about the 1 day mechanic is probably a wasted effort. If the specific wording of Extra Time is a put off, make a Custom limitation based on the value of Extra Time and call it good. Either way, I don't think you are violating the spirit of the rules.

[Tonio]

I submit the NCC doesn't apply here; this is clearly a case of Always On. He spreads the effect by being in the place at all; NCC is really a GM Plot Device made manifest.
True, of course. My reasoning stemmed from a faulty understanding of Extra Time as applied to Constant powers. I understand now that Extra Time normally applied to Constant powers (that is, w/o the "Only To Activate" modifier) makes them take that long between "activations".

So... 0 END, Persistent, AOE, Always On, No Range, Extra Time. I'd still go the Transform way. Seems more elegant (weird, I know... Transform... elegant?), and goes right to the point (Drain PRE/EGO has other side effects you might not want). What with Mental Transforms and Partial Transforms you get exactly what you want... a power that will eventuall turn you into a coward who won't even dare go out of his house cuz the outside world's too freaky and scary, but will get you there incrementally, first making you somewhat freaked out and scared, then maybe a little bit paranoid to boot, etc.

[Thia Halmades]

Again, I disagree, but I'll at least articulate why. Transform is great for certain effects, but i learned quickly (from these boards, no less) that while it CAN do anything, that doesn't mean it should in many cases.

If you flip to my spell conversions, you'll see that most Fear effects are built as PRE attacks, and occasionally as a Mind Control (depending on the duration/type of the Fear attack). To make people susceptible to Fear and other Ego type structures, draining their ability to defend themselves is key. If you want to go the extra mile you could drain appropriate defenses first, and use Change Environment to weaken appropriate rolls.

*FOREHEAD SMACK*

This is a Change Environment power, Maya. I don't know why this didn't occur to me initially. CE: -X to all PRE and EGO based rolls involving Fear Effects. You can also add -DCV and -OCV (Requires a Contested Roll, enemy skill vs. PC PRE (which is now weakened)).

[Tonio]

Again, I disagree, but I'll at least articulate why. Transform is great for certain effects, but i learned quickly (from these boards, no less) that while it CAN do anything, that doesn't mean it should in many cases.

If you flip to my spell conversions, you'll see that most Fear effects are built as PRE attacks, and occasionally as a Mind Control (depending on the duration/type of the Fear attack). To make people susceptible to Fear and other Ego type structures, draining their ability to defend themselves is key. If you want to go the extra mile you could drain appropriate defenses first, and use Change Environment to weaken appropriate rolls.

*FOREHEAD SMACK*

This is a Change Environment power, Maya. I don't know why this didn't occur to me initially. CE: -X to all PRE and EGO based rolls involving Fear Effects. You can also add -DCV and -OCV (Requires a Contested Roll, enemy skill vs. PC PRE (which is now weakened)).

Yah! CE definitely sounds like the way to go! Rep rep!

How do you make the effects last even after you leave the area, then fade away slowly, though? Sticky, at the +1/2 level (as per 5ER, pg 268, next to last paragraph on the left column), with the "fades away after time" as GM fiat?

[tancred]

Nice catch on the Change Environment, Thia; that looks to be exactly why Change Environment works the way it does. It's a perfect power for this effect.
The only drawback I can see is that it doesn't increase over time, which I think mayapuppies said he wanted.

Honestly, on the Drain, I'd have been Stunned (pun intended) if that hadn't turned out to be the case; I've ALWAYS played Drains that way, as far back as we've had them (was that first edition?).

[Thia Halmades]

Bear in mind, he doesn't really need it to increase over time. He needs it to be a 'set effect' once the PCs reach the zone. He can, if he really wants too, build multiple versions of it, or...

Wait for it...

Put gradual effect on it, with a truly silly amount of time to build up, so it goes from (minor) to (hmm, creepy) to (oh my...) to (RUN! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!) so that option exists as well.

My bad on the Drain. I don't use 'em much, so in my head they got lumped with all the other adjustment powers, hence my request for the double check. Bear in mind, too, that I only started with 5ER. It's a great game, but suffers from information overload at times and it's easy to lose a 'key rule' in the text. My only wish is for a complete and total re-org of the material, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. :nonp:

[Thia Halmades]

Yah! CE definitely sounds like the way to go! Rep rep!

How do you make the effects last even after you leave the area, then fade away slowly, though? Sticky, at the +1/2 level (as per 5ER, pg 268, next to last paragraph on the left column), with the "fades away after time" as GM fiat?

Yeah, a sticky handwave (IDHMBIFOM to do a double-check) but that should do the trick. Remember, though, it's a CE, so he can reasonably just hand wave the SFX once they're out of the area. Make the area big enough (or an explosion) and it could take quite a while to 'escape' from the zone.

[tancred]

Tell me about information overload. :D
I've been playing since 1st Edition (1982 or so), converted my long-time D&D-playing friends into Herophiles, and I STILL find rules I either never read or that are new to 5th Edition.

Your just starting might actually be an advantage; you aren't remembering how things used to be and getting confused by them. My current group started playing Champions with 4th Edition and we frequently have to stop and look something up in the middle of a game.

And Gradual Effect is a sweet way to get the originally-requested result.

[Thia Halmades]

Tell me about information overload. :D
I've been playing since 1st Edition (1982 or so), converted my long-time D&D-playing friends into Herophiles, and I STILL find rules I either never read or that are new to 5th Edition.

Your just starting might actually be an advantage; you aren't remembering how things used to be and getting confused by them. My current group started playing Champions with 4th Edition and we frequently have to stop and look something up in the middle of a game.

You're right, honestly -- especially with all the melee that seems to surround some of the whole 4th/5th discussions. And it terrifies me that with over two decades under my belt, someone may say, two years after I began, that I'm "just starting" with HERO. :nonp: And here I go bashing people for claiming it's overly complicated.

To be fair, we often stop dead in the middle of a game to double check things. I have the grab rules tabbed in my HSCH and I've looked up things on the fly on multiple occasions. What's worse, and humbling, is that my knowledge of the rules has been called encyclopedic. :ugly:

And Gradual Effect is a sweet way to get the originally-requested result.

As the Sangheili say, "Wort wort wort." Thanks, I was rather proud of myself for that one. I'm always amazed at how many 'answers' are already in the text, and how often we talk ourselves right past them.

[mayapuppies]

Ok, so what build options are we at at this point? ROFL

I'm lost and I still have a wrench to toss in...

[Thia Halmades]

You're building it as a Change Environment; that's precisely what you described. It allows you to modify any and all stats, and you do it as a Gradual Effect to 'build up' to the desired level for the encounter you want.

Dare I ask *braces himself* What's the wrench?

[mayapuppies]

The Nightmare actually starts with a 0 in all physical characteristics and gains points in them from the Drain. These gained points wear off over years until they reach 0 again and the nightmare is placed in "slumber" until the next tragedy awakens it.

So I need to work in a Transfer I'm thinking.

The problem here is that I want the increase to be gradual but limitless.

[Thia Halmades]

I don't know that Transfer does that. I suggest the following:

1. Build your CE. Okay. That's covered.
2. The 'stat gain' thing... wow, he'd need SO MANY POINTS to be effective that you're going well overboard of him ever begin effective. Srsly, said the LOL cat. I don't think it'll work. By all means, if someone wants to chime in how it will, groovy.
3. Stat out the creature at the power level you want it; assign the whole 'drain' thing as an SFX. It'll make much better flavor text than mechanics. If you want to make it vulnerable to intangibles like Hope and Joy (however you want to do that, I'm sure I can think of something...) then that would work as a sort 'upside down' solution. As people come BACK, they get stronger and build homes and hearths and push the thing back.

That, to me, is a lot easier and more elegant, and saves you the trouble of trying to math your way towards what sounds like flavor text to me.

[mayapuppies]

Yeah, but there are hundreds of people within the multi-kilometer radius of the effect. He'd be a god in no time! And then I could track its growth over the prior centuries and then graph that with the population growth formula from the...

ok fine...

[teh bunneh]

Would Explosion be better that AoE? That way, the effect gets worse as you travel toward the epicenter...

Just a random thought. :)

You can use Explosion with Change Environment, too. It's a -1/4 limitation, according to 5er page 138.

(Assuming you're thinking about going with Change Env). :)

To simulate the "Gets stronger as people lose hope" thing, I'd just use a Triggered Aid. Everytime someone spends X amount of time within the radius (or whatever you decide the Trigger is), the Nightmare critter gets Xd6 Aid to any power/stat. Reduce the fade time and you're golden. Aid has a set maximum it can boost, too, unlike Drain, so you won't have to worry about the Nightmare becoming God-like in no time.

[mayapuppies]

To Keyes: I like the Aid thing, but I seriously don't want a limit on the potential growth for this thing. It's supposed to be a serious threat to the nation not just the heroes.

To Thia: I just did some playing around with the CE and I'm liking the feel of it. The flat negative modifier to a characteristic has too consistent feel to it. Everytime we get within the radius we're at -x to PRE/EGO is not what I'm looking for.

I'm really looking for a more random approach that gives a variable scary rather than an on/off switch that CE has. I do like the Explosion idea and I'll have to reread through this thread a bit more to fine tune it, but the Drain is what I think I'm going to go with.

[Thia Halmades]

Yeah, but there are hundreds of people within the multi-kilometer radius of the effect. He'd be a god in no time! And then I could track its growth over the prior centuries and then graph that with the population growth formula from the...

ok fine...

It's a plot monster. Let's not spend so much time on it that it needs a graph. And teh bunneh is correct; a properly built AID should do the trick (see what I mean? I never thought of that, nice one bunneh).

[Thia Halmades]

To Thia: I just did some playing around with the CE and I'm liking the feel of it. The flat negative modifier to a characteristic has too consistent feel to it. Everytime we get within the radius we're at -x to PRE/EGO is not what I'm looking for.

I'm really looking for a more random approach that gives a variable scary rather than an on/off switch that CE has. I do like the Explosion idea and I'll have to reread through this thread a bit more to fine tune it, but the Drain is what I think I'm going to go with.

It's your monster, but your initial description does not say "National Threat." It says "local threat based on events." :think: So you know, do what you like, but I submit that from what you said, the effect you want is CE. YMMV as always.