Turakian Magic: tweaked... is ok?

[Dr Divago]

revised and correct... well... i tried to correct some grammar error...
sorry XD

Hi all guys
finally, after 2 or more weeks, my party decided for Fantasy Hero. we'll start a campaign next spring, so i got enough time to prepare something... or to waste time so in may i could complain i wasted too much time :D

now, i'm checking magic system, and i tweaked it a little.
i got some question about it, but ofc you can't reply me if you don't know my magic system so... i start showing you what's the difference from "standard" turakian age magic system

Arcane Magic a.k.a. The Magic
- magic is divided into 12 Arcana: 6 "basic" and 6 "advacned". Arcana are similar to "aeldenaren gifts" from www.killershrike.com's aeldenaren magic system; for example "soldier arcana" is for EB and HKA and "priest arcana" is for Aid and Succor.
Every arcana is a different talent; each talent cost 2 points, and you cannot have more advanced than basic arcana

- every arcana is linked to a single general (3/2 cost) skill; to cast spell you use the arcana skill; so to cast "mystic dart" (a rka spell) you need to roll "Arcana: Soldier" and to cast "healing" you need to roll "Arcana: Priest".
Arcana are unrelated to school, so "mystic dart" and "flame bolt" all use the same arcana skill ("Arcana:Soldier")

- spells are divided into Sciences of the Art, or just "Arts". Arts are what Turakian Age sourcebook call arcana (wizardry, elemental fire, druidry, ecc.). Every art is a separated SS so SS:Wizardy is different than SS: Fire Elementalism. SS:Art is a background (2/1 cost) skill

- SS: Art is just a prerequisite; you can learn a spell only if Active Point cost is less than (or equal than) SS: Art x5 (so you can learn a 60 AP mystic dart only if u have 12- or more in SS: Wizardry)

- SS: Art and Arcana is 2 totally different things: you need SS: Fire Elementalism to learn Fire Bolt and SS: Wizardry to cast Mystic Dart, but you cast it using Arcana: Soldier. Btw, SS: Wizardry is enough to cast Mystic Dart and Detect Magic, but you need to roll Arcana: Soldier to cast Mystic Dart and Arcana: Wiseman to cast Detect Magic

- Arcane Magic is pretty expensive: 2 for each arcana (is 24 for all); a 3/2 cost for each skill (is 36 for all skill... at 11-). 2/1 for each SS: Art (probably you'll need just one or two, but you'll need it!)
THEN you need to buy single spell (cost: real cost divided by three)

- Mage Guild are a simple way to lower costs:
just paying for guild rank (advice: no more than 3 for starting caracther) you gain
a) the arcana are teached to you by an high level master, so you bought it at lower cost: just 1 for each arcana talent, up to the numbers of arcana shown in table below (so for 9 point you get guild rank 3, 4 basic and 2 advacned arcana). You can still learn arcana "by yourself" at normal cost (2 cp)
b) you can choose arcana skill swapping it to your everyman skills; arcana skill must be the same of arcana you bought "less expensive" from guild. And if you whant buy more level for this arcana skill, you need only 2 point for first rank (11-)
c) you can choose one, and only one, arcana skill to start at 11- with no cost. this arcana skill must be related to arcana teach by guild
d) you can choose any one SS: Art in lieu of your PS from everyman package

cost rank arcana: basic/advanced
1 Apprentice 1/0
2 Senior Apprentice 2/1
3 Mage 4/2
4 Scholar 5/3
5 Master 6/5
7 Archmage 6/6


Joining a guild will made your life easier... but you need to obey your guild: do what master do, report them what you find, and like.

this way magic is more expensive and so less likely to be too powerful; btw, if you join a guild, is not too much expensive and you are still limited (and aided, of course) by your guild

First Question
I did this magic system (to be honest i tweaked some already existing :D ) because i found turakian magic system too powerful and lacking of any interesting "flavour"
btw, i fear this one is too complex and expensive and so too little useable.
mainly compared to divine magic system (see below)

you all who already used and (hopefully) still using "standard" magic system... what do you think about it?
i mean: turakian age standard wizard is powerful? weak? more powerful than warrior like or priest like characters? less powerful? equally powerful?
and with this magic system, mage will be still balanced?

Divine Magic a.k.a. The Power
- you don't need any arcana, or ss arts or like to cast spell

- you need Faith skill to cast any spell

- all spell need to get the "Only when following deity's rules" or like (don't remember the spelling :D ), so you can cast it only when a) are in mission from your deity b) this does'nt go against your deity's wishes and c) only when your GM, i mean your deity roleplayed by your GM, doesn't think you are going against what she whant.
this could be a very strong limitation; however, i suppose a priest will *always* act to fullfill deity's wish so, there is no limitation :D
a flat -1/2 is ok, i suppose
(btw is the same limitation i found on turakian age sourcebook's divine spell list :cool: )

- all spell need your "holy talisman" like a focus (OIF reusable). If you miss the talisman, someone will destroy it or similar, you can always go to your deity's temple and ask for one new; easy if you are into Aarn, pretty difficult if you are inside a dungeon full of monsters

- all spell are powered by a "Holy Phylactery", an Endurance Reserve you can recharge by praying; something like 100 end, 5 rec, recharging only when praying" tied to a IIF (or OIF?)
You pay for the END Res. phylactery, but, of course, you can always come back to temple and ask for a new one if your are lost.

you can cast spell even without the phylactery, using your own end, BUT END cost are x3 (or x4?)
this system could apply also to paladin shaman or like

Second Question
This system is way less expensive than arcane magic ones, so priest are more powerful; however there are the limitation you can use the spell only to follow your deity's wishs so you are technically "not free" to use all spells you whant
then, talisman/phylactery limitation could limit "spell use for day"

Btw it seems me priest are extremely more powerful than mage, 'cause they got more points to spend for spell (less talents, skills, and like)
How can i balance this?

some ideas:
a) priest spells cost is only 1/2 real cost (mage is 1/3). so priest spell are more expensive. this bring at low level priest are more powerful (less talent to buy, less skill=more spell) at higher level is viceversa (priest spell is more expensive)
b) priest got more skill to learn; paladin are supposed also to fight; shamans are supposed also to guide their tribes. and like. so, i can build "priest package deal" with some other skills: maybe all priest need to know basic from combat, geography, a lot of KS and like, so priest are more versatile "in the normal not magic life" and mage are just spell-whore :D
c) add some arcana, ks and like spell to priest magic too: i can divide spells type by deitys (es: EB and RKA tied to a war deity, healing spells to the fertile goddess... sorry don't remember the name...), imposing talent for "gifted by this deity" and different skills... like arcane magic system ;)
d) add some restriction about end reserve, so magic is "more spell for day" than priest.

all this, is just 'cause i whant make magic
a) less powerful and less "oh i'm not a mage, i'm useless"
b) more funny
c) different from DnD's magic :)

what's your opinion???

Edit
A friend of mine suggested me this magic system:
all is like Turakian Age system save for
- magic spells are divided into different school; you can cast only from same school. spells will cost 1/3 of real cost (like usual)
- you can take "magic affinity" talent to cast spell from different school but not from opposed school. all your spell will cost 1/2 real cost (more expensive)
- you can take "magic knowledge" to cast spell from all school, but all spells cost you real cost (more more expensive)

[Thia Halmades]

That I need to print this, fix all the grammar, re-read it, and then offer something constructive. What I could decipher seemed fine, though. :ugly:

[Dr Divago]

That I need to print this, fix all the grammar, re-read it, and then offer something constructive. What I could decipher seemed fine, though. :ugly:Ouch
too much grammar error?
sooooooooorrryyyyyyyyy :(

[Thia Halmades]

No, not at all -- I think I'm just suffering from eye strain and too many bullet points. Sorry, I retract the comment. I made it too early in the day and it came out as snarky instead of humorous, that's my fault. It totally slipped my mind that English likely isn't your first language as I was trying to read through it. I promise to actually copy, paste, print and read it thoroughly by way of apology.

Seriously, mea culpa.

[Dr Divago]

No, not at all -- I think I'm just suffering from eye strain and too many bullet points. Sorry, I retract the comment. I made it too early in the day and it came out as snarky instead of humorous, that's my fault. It totally slipped my mind that English likely isn't your first language as I was trying to read through it. I promise to actually copy, paste, print and read it thoroughly by way of apology.

Seriously, mea culpa.no problem, i did some change. now could be more readable
and i added a little suggestion from a friend.

[Thia Halmades]

On your general system structure:

Okay, so if I have 3 Basic, I can’t have more than 3 Advanced. So far, so good. You may want to break out in more detail how you want “EB” and “RKA” to represent themselves. There are plenty of special effects that might go out of bounds from strict lines like these; while I use a similar system for my Wild West Campaign, sometimes allowances need to made. The classic “Holy Strike” or “Flame Strike” is one of those, since smacking people with Divine Power usually leaves a mark.

On every arcana being governed by a general skill:

I’m unclear on what you want to accomplish here; are you saying that each Arcana Skill governs its own set of abilities? So that each spell you purchase would, for example, have the 0 point limitation, “Arcana: [Group]”? For instance, in my d20 conversion of magic, every d20 spell belongs to a School (a fact that I really love about the system) and I make all my casters buy the necessary skill, and all magic Requires a Skill Roll. Is that what you’re going for?

I see that you're divining your spells into schools, and that those require an SS, although IMO, that may be 'too high a cost' to chuck the spell; for instance, lots of people have the Drive skill, but few have SS: Engineering. Some may have KS: Mechanics (8-) but most don't. In other words, I don't know that you want to require the SS as a prerequisite for using the spell; possibly for learning new spells, or designing spells, but as always, YMMV.

Also, I think that making them buy up their skill to learn their spells is a good idea, but that the cost doesn't equal the utility. Much easier to simply allow them to make the SS roll against the Active Points of the spell (which is the system I use). So if you have Conjuration 16-, you'll have no problem learning a 30 AP spell (13- roll, before modifiers) but you may need to put skills into your roll to learn a 60 AP spell (a 10- roll). Somewhat less math in terms of the max you can learn, and hey, if they have a 16- and find a 90 AP spell and roll a six, well, hell, good for them.

For Priests and such:

The limitation you're referring to is "Only While Serving God's Purpose," and it's worth -1/2. I don't actually use it, but that's because the nature of faith-based magic in my campaign has a lot less to do with what a Deity wants and a lot more to do with the will and personal faith of the caster (but I digress). Some spells, those that bend reality (Miracle, Resurrection and so on) take the limitation, as does "Divine Might" and anything else that expressly states you're pulling divine strength right from the well; but generally, I don't use it. That's a design/world tweak, though.

I... think I understand what you mean; that the Cleric receives 'power' via an object, and not directly from the Divine, that the power of prayer is captured in the object and then projected back. Okay. *ponders* But I don't know that you want to math it out to where rank = power. There are going to be young priests who warrant a very powerful phylactery (any PC) and old priests who aren't really spell casters, but more researchers or advisors. Something to ponder. I think you're "over D20ing" this section.

The Priest/Wizard divide is handled by the spells at their disposal; Priests are generally 'White' magic that supports the party; Wizards are 'Black' magic that blows up everything around them. Wizardry has always been labeled harder than Faith magic in d20, and you can break away from it in multiple ways:

* Have different Spheres of Influence (AD&D 2nd Ed) and make your Priest pick only those Spheres supported by their deity, thus buying skill levels to cast and limiting their spell selection

* Flat out limit their available spells

* Give them other things to spend points on that squishy mages don't get, like Divine Abilities, extra gear, etc. & so forth.

Does that help at all? Again, this is all mainly opinion, YMMV, and other assorted disclaimers.

[eternal_sage]

been working on a similar system for a d20 to HERO conversion for the Warlords of the Accordlands setting. i also decided that the power level is a bit uncomfortable for me, so i flat out limited the lists to 5 levels (which just happens to coincide with Thia's spell conversions... :) ). that helped alot.

your arcane system is good, i think, and is balanced well against melee (the real test comes with play, of course) since it is somewhat comparable to all the CSLs and combat manuvers that melee types tend to take to be really good at their professions. i do agree with Thia on the SS though.

now, for the divine system, again, i like it, and it has merits, but i'm not sure. firstly, if your game is going to be very dependant upon the issues of clerical strictures and divine doctrine, then "Only While Serving God's Purposes" is a excellent choice. however, if your world is more like Thia's then it doesn't much matter. in my own conversion, i wanted to keep the basic look and feel of DnD magic, but i wanted it to work differently, and to feel a bit more personal (arcane) or god given (divine, obviously). my method was give the divine casters a VPP with which they can only cast spells of their deity's domains at full AP. all other domains fall to Half AP. this maintains their ability to pull out any possible effect you can think off, but makes clerics of Albrect feel different from clerics of Fineltour. it also reinforces the idea that they are directly channeling the gods power to do anything because it is a VPP. all the divine casters need is a foci, a Faith skill and a VPP to start borrowing power straight from heaven.

this does put the balance in the GMs court, and does rely on very strong roleplaying by the group (hey, i'm blessed, what can i say). but if you can count on such things, the price of a VPP really takes its toll after a while. my two cents.

[Thia Halmades]

Did I finish & post 5th Level Cleric? I don't remember. I started doing DRU spells the other day, but lost my focus quickly. I promised Diamond Spear I would finish (with his help) H:CE, and then I'll grind out a few spell levels I think. Once that's done I was pondering doing some of the class abilities in Final Fantasy Tactics: Advance and seeing how those look.

[eternal_sage]

Did I finish & post 5th Level Cleric?

not that i have seen, but maybe. i haven't looked for awhile.

and FF:T Advance was a waste of time and money, in my opinion. i found it rather like playing d20 with only the core books and no house rules, which is to say, good idea, but why can't i use magic this battle?

the whole battle judge thing was nearly the stupidest thing they ever did with a FF game....after deciding that coherent plots with as few plot holes as possible were too "old school" for todays hip, post modern, ADHD brats after FF6.

wow....sorry...did not mean to derail into a Squenix hate fest.....

[ghost-angel]

I would actually remove the SS needs, go through the spells and reassign them to the 6 Arcana you want to define.

Any Science Skills would be useful in altering, creating and studying spells, but the raw power really shouldn't need it - after all lots of people can learn things without learning the theory behind it. I wouldn't make these skills prerequisites for learning a new spell.

The Power: Arcana skills should be what defines what you can learn, use and how powerful it can be.

That would simplify it a little, and divide out those who study, and those who go through the motions to get the power.

[Dr Divago]

On your general system structure:

Okay, so if I have 3 Basic, I can’t have more than 3 Advanced. So far, so good. You may want to break out in more detail how you want “EB” and “RKA” to represent themselves. There are plenty of special effects that might go out of bounds from strict lines like these; while I use a similar system for my Wild West Campaign, sometimes allowances need to made. The classic “Holy Strike” or “Flame Strike” is one of those, since smacking people with Divine Power usually leaves a mark.Well, they are "not so strict" class of power
for instance: "Arcana: Priest" cover aid, succor, healing and like, and all enhancement spells; btw combat enhancer (csl) are under Arcana: Soldier while KS enhancer (like SL to KS or PS) are under Arcana: Wiseman
again, Arcana: Druid cover transform spell. but i know transform is most powerful (and abused) power and you can use transform to attack (so it goes under Soldier) or to defend (under Shieldman); entangle is a power very wide in use: you can use it to attack and hold one guy, to crete barrier, to "mind block" someone, and like
so arcana are pretty wide and general ideas: single spell may go in arcana different than one i stated

On every arcana being governed by a general skill:

I’m unclear on what you want to accomplish here; are you saying that each Arcana Skill governs its own set of abilities? So that each spell you purchase would, for example, have the 0 point limitation, “Arcana: [Group]”? For instance, in my d20 conversion of magic, every d20 spell belongs to a School (a fact that I really love about the system) and I make all my casters buy the necessary skill, and all magic Requires a Skill Roll. Is that what you’re going for?Ok, yeah. my english suck :D
"arcana skill goveerns arcana" means: "there are 12 different power skill: Power:Arcana Soldier, Power: Arcana Wiseman, etc (one power skill for each arcana). all spell are RSR (Arcana) so arcana skill are THE skill you need to use the spell

SS: Art skill are just to say "hey i'm sage who study magic". SS: Art are what mage use to learn spell, to understand it and to make the difference between a whitebeard secluded into high tower deep in forest, and young mage with high power still studying at school
i made it a SS 'cause magic "is not something scholar can understand. is a True Art, is a Science, something only very talented and powerful people can understand". mechanically speaking, SS is same than KS :D

then i divided spell into school so i can use FH Grimoire and FH Grimoire 2 i bought :D
Also, I think that making them buy up their skill to learn their spells is a good idea, but that the cost doesn't equal the utility. Much easier to simply allow them to make the SS roll against the Active Points of the spell (which is the system I use). So if you have Conjuration 16-, you'll have no problem learning a 30 AP spell (13- roll, before modifiers) but you may need to put skills into your roll to learn a 60 AP spell (a 10- roll). Somewhat less math in terms of the max you can learn, and hey, if they have a 16- and find a 90 AP spell and roll a six, well, hell, good for them.Hmmm this is a good idea
so skill is not requirement but just the skill you roll to learn spell

The limitation you're referring to is "Only While Serving God's Purpose," and it's worth -1/2.yeah right!
i like it 'cause i really dislike all those "dnd clerics" who pray (ie) Love and Fertility Goddes who still heal atheyst wizard, druid-who-pray-nothing-but-true-nature, warrior "i only serve war god" and psychopathic blooddrinking halfiling assassins who are the first one betraying the cleric

You whant the god favour? right. cool. accept to pray him, accept all benedictions, and, of course, folow deity's purpose

I... think I understand what you mean; that the Cleric receives 'power' via an object, and not directly from the Divine, that the power of prayer is captured in the object and then projected back. Okay. *ponders* But I don't know that you want to math it out to where rank = power. There are going to be young priests who warrant a very powerful phylactery (any PC) and old priests who aren't really spell casters, but more researchers or advisors. Something to ponder. I think you're "over D20ing" this section.Hmmm right
the "phylactery-thing" born because mage can build end reserve for their spells; so even priest could. then i thought about using it like a limitation.
now i see your point: is :ugly: so i'll remove the limitation
i could use it, or better reverse it: mage can only use their end OR end reserve. priest can use both BUT if the use end to cast an "end reserve-powered" spell pay 3x end

* Have different Spheres of Influence (AD&D 2nd Ed) and make your Priest pick only those Spheres supported by their deity, thus buying skill levels to cast and limiting their spell selectionThis is what i thought
deities are divided by "area of expertise" in turakian age setting
but i'll need to divide spells :)

* Give them other things to spend points on that squishy mages don't get, like Divine Abilities, extra gear, etc. & so forth.Very cool idea
so mage are all "spell caster" and priest got spell, got divine abilities, got a lot of knowledge and like
my method was give the divine casters a VPP with which they can only cast spells of their deity's domains at full AP. all other domains fall to Half AP. this maintains their ability to pull out any possible effect you can think off, but makes clerics of Albrect feel different from clerics of Fineltour. it also reinforces the idea that they are directly channeling the gods power to do anything because it is a VPP. all the divine casters need is a foci, a Faith skill and a VPP to start borrowing power straight from heaven.This could be a very useful way to make differences: wizards buy spell one by one (paying 1/3 of real cost for it, like standard rules) while clerics can build it into vpp
but vpp will give same feel than dnd: clerics can cast more spell but need to choose in advance
something else can be force priest to buy different multipower (maybe EC?) for different spheres of influences. and they pay full cost for spells (where "full" means "real cost of EC-ed spell are not divided by 3").
this could give the general idea spell are powered by gods (spell are less expensive if i buy them from same sphere of influences)
again, how can i divide spell by spheres of influence? divideng them by effect, by special effect or like?

then another thinking arise: vpp or ec or multipower are "advanced" rules; and i play with guys never played hero. last thing i whant is the "hero is like dnd but with lot more rules" feeling... wich will bring to "we can play dnd adding few house rules and this will be same than hero" XD

but if you can count on such things, the price of a VPP really takes its toll after a while. my two cents.sorry, i don't understand what do you mean here :(

[Thia Halmades]

What ES is getting at, simply, is that VPPs, properly built and executed, are expensive. One of the reasons we can (apologies in advance to the assembled) "simulate" elements of d20 is that a d20 is effectively using a VPP; and it consumes almost all of his available CP, especially early on. The downside is that as they grow in power they really, really grow in power, much like their d20 counterparts. However, in HERO, the Fighters are buying all kinds of cool 'fighter tricks' and the Paladins buy all kinds of groovy "holy abilities" and so on and so forth, so it all balances out.

The difference in d20 & HERO is that both Priests and Mages usually rely on VPPs to buy & cast spells; one of the drawbacks for mages, though, in my system at least is the requirement of having to purchase all the extra skills to cast spells from the various schools; this costs points that the Priest doesn't need to sink. The mage does. Additionally, if you're really feeling snarky, you can install the limitations Cannot Wear Armor and such on your casters. I think I did it as a penalty to the skill roll; every X level of armor instills a -1 penalty to the caster for his skill roll. Originally it was meant to be 1:1 in terms of DEF to Skill but that opened a giant argument.

Upon reflection, though, I don't want mages in Plate. They get spells for that (Force Fields, Barkskin and the like) so it is reasonable. You only need heavy armor if you're on the front line. But I digress, point being, Priests don't suffer from that restriction, so it's one more thing they can buy and spend CP on.

[eternal_sage]

basically, what i was getting at was that in my set up, alot of the restrictions on divine magic are not mechanical, but roleplay, in that, or course the luck god COULD make a fireball, but he won't, because it's not his way of doing things. so they have VPPs with very little in the way of limitations, and it is up to the player and the GM to decide what falls into the realm of the Luck domain, or what have you. its really elegant, if you can depend on your players to not be a bunch of munchkins and/or you are willing to be the letter of the law at the table and strictly enforce the deity's portfolio/domains.

in other words, you really need to examine the needs of your players. if you feel they are mature enough as roleplayers to act in accordence with the wishes of their character's god, then it can be really rewarding. if they would be tempted to take that VPP and then do inappropriate things with it (summoning undead in Pelor's name, for instance) then it will destroy your game.

simply put, i have found that less rules makes for more fun, so the things i can delegate to "RP Only" really help in that regard.

[Thia Halmades]

basically, what i was getting at was that in my set up, alot of the restrictions on divine magic are not mechanical, but roleplay, in that, or course the luck god COULD make a fireball, but he won't, because it's not his way of doing things. so they have VPPs with very little in the way of limitations, and it is up to the player and the GM to decide what falls into the realm of the Luck domain, or what have you. its really elegant, if you can depend on your players to not be a bunch of munchkins and/or you are willing to be the letter of the law at the table and strictly enforce the deity's portfolio/domains.

in other words, you really need to examine the needs of your players. if you feel they are mature enough as roleplayers to act in accordence with the wishes of their character's god, then it can be really rewarding. if they would be tempted to take that VPP and then do inappropriate things with it (summoning undead in Pelor's name, for instance) then it will destroy your game.

simply put, i have found that less rules makes for more fun, so the things i can delegate to "RP Only" really help in that regard.

Wow, I interpreted that totally wrong. My bad, ES. Actually, though, you're a lot looser on your requirements than I am. I use very strict guidelines on my IVPP system, including, but not limited too, "You may only pick from dese spells." Since Fireball doesn't fall under the Luck domain, no Luck Priest would have it. Which again, the whole point was to remodel d20 into HERO and something I liked, and I succeeded admirably in that, but that was the reasoning behind the whole thing.

[eternal_sage]

well, we're using slightly different domains...in functionality they are more akin to Arcana from Mage: the Awakening (or the Ascension, if you perfer. i do not) in that it is more a situation of "these are the things my god rules, therefore they are things his imbued power allows me to do as well."

it only really gets down to nitty gritty with the Doctrine domain, which replaces all instances of the alignments (Law, Chaos, Good, and Evil, as we are not using alignments). The Doctrine domain allows the follower of (to use Greyhawk deities that we all are familiar with) Vecna to use any spell that is useful in finding out and protecting secrets, escpecially to "evil" i.e. selfish ends. if the player can explain to me in a way that makes sense how a fireball would help in that endevour...a BIG if... then it would get the benefits of being a domain effect (in essense a AP boost and a less sever penalty to cast). this keeps the cleric able to whip up any effect you can imagine, something i attribute as the major strength of a cleric over a wizard, but also makes domains and doctrines of the deites you follow more impotant and makes you feel more like you aren't smiting them yourself but recieving the power to smite on your deity's behalf.

oh, and don't worry about the misinterpretation....no hard feelings...it was a pretty crappy sentence. and what you said was also a part of the comment, so you did get it partially right. :)

[Dr Divago]

it only really gets down to nitty gritty with the Doctrine domain, which replaces all instances of the alignments (Law, Chaos, Good, and Evil, as we are not using alignments). The Doctrine domain allows the follower of (to use Greyhawk deities that we all are familiar with) Vecna to use any spell that is useful in finding out and protecting secrets, escpecially to "evil" i.e. selfish ends. if the player can explain to me in a way that makes sense how a fireball would help in that endevour...a BIG if... then it would get the benefits of being a domain effect (in essense a AP boost and a less sever penalty to cast). this keeps the cleric able to whip up any effect you can imagine, something i attribute as the major strength of a cleric over a wizard, but also makes domains and doctrines of the deites you follow more impotant and makes you feel more like you aren't smiting them yourself but recieving the power to smite on your deity's behalf.I like this "roleplaying idea"; hero si more flexible than dnd (and most other system i read). FREd has way more rules, ofc, but... more flexible. where is hero flexibility? in the "idea" (or "concept" if you like it :D ) that rules are just "tools to make game better", not viceversa.

Of course all game state this, but ehi... just saying it does'nt make it true!
Hero does'nt say it. But show it

so (back in topic) roleplay limitation for deities domain will be nicer. for me.
dunno what my players like... think better idea will be asking :)