Turakian Age Q: Gunpowder?

[CrosshairCollie]

I've been flipping through the Turakian Age setting book, and haven't come across an answer one way or the other ... are there firearms in TA, or no?

[ghost-angel]

none at all.

[CrosshairCollie]

none at all.

I assumed not, but you know what they say about assuming.

[Steve Long]

Just to confirm: hell, no. ;)

It's certainly possible to design a Fantasy setting with gunpowder; in fact I wouldn't mind trying that someday. But for a "typical" sort of Fantasy setting, IMO introducing gunpowder sort of spoils things.

[BobGreenwade]

It's certainly possible to design a Fantasy setting with gunpowder; in fact I wouldn't mind trying that someday. But for a "typical" sort of Fantasy setting, IMO introducing gunpowder sort of spoils things.IIRC the old Tunnels and Trolls setting allowed for some rudimentary firearms -- muskets, breech-loaders, and such. They were supposed to be rare, and I rarely had or observed a character with one.

OTOH any published Fantasy Hero setting with firearms should probably limit them to stuff with the Inaccurate Limitation and a requirement of taking a full Turn to reload.

(Of course, all this is coming from a guy who's currently working on a setting where wizards stand side-by-side with guys toting laser weapons.)

[SCUBA Hero]

The Fantasy Trip also hadgunpowder in it, though not as a major feature. One ingredient in gunpowder was dragon dung, which the dragons were unwilling to sell (knowing what it could be used for).

[Spence]

IIRC the old Tunnels and Trolls setting allowed for some rudimentary firearms -- muskets, breech-loaders, and such. They were supposed to be rare, and I rarely had or observed a character with one.



It did. But T&T was a combat blender so they were only worth something to lower level PC's. After that the average Wizard or Warrior dished out a LOT more damage and they were meh....

At least when I used to play it in the '80's......:nonp:

[Shadowsoul]

Of course just because the canon TA doesn't have gunpowder doesn't mean an individual GM can't add it into their own alternate version of the world.

I do believe that the Fantasy Hero rulebook has some rules for black powder weapons however. Although people such as Spence and Captain Obvious have posted rather more advanced versions.

Shamelessly self promoting though it may be I feel constrained to mention that I am running a Fantasy Hero Campaign involving gunpowder which is based on an alternate and somewhat magical Europe during the 17th and 18th centuries. So if you wanted to see black powder fantasy in action you could go here - http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59941 and look at the campaign write ups.

My players do fight differently due to their equipment, they don't tend to like getting stuck in and will pepper big nasty monsters with pistol balls before resorting to steel. On the other hand it means that even mooks can be threatening in reasonable groups, there's nothing like the term 'massed musket fire' to make Heroic PC's dive for cover.

[Spence]

One point to bring up about it. When you design your BP rules, don't try to design reality. Rather decide how you want BP to affect the game and design them to fill that niche.

I never completed my BP rules, but I did not want firearms that would be as effective as modern arms. I wanted them to be extremely unreliable and slow. But to have a high enough potential that they would be seen as viable weapons. Much like the musket era. For armies with large formations a misfire rate of 5-15% and inaccuracy could be made up by massed volleys, and the slow reload time by multiple ranks or formations in support. Or basically history.

But for the party of adventurers they would be reduced to the opening volley and then to steel, unless they were in a position that could afford a limited approach to offset the reload time.

All in all, BP in a fantasy world is IMO a very cool idea. But it needs to fill a specific need in the game..

[Spence]

I do believe that the Fantasy Hero rulebook has some rules for black powder weapons however. Although people such as Spence and Captain Obvious have posted rather more advanced versions.



Thanks for the kind words....:D

[Shadowsoul]

Of course in a fantastic setting the 'problems' of inaccuracy and long loading times can be solved by throwing points at it. Either by allowing PC's to take large amounts of penalty skill levels/loading skill levels or through enchanted weapons or spells.

One of my PC's has an enchanted rifle with 3 PSL's against range mods. More worryingly he is Speed 4 and now has enough loading skill to perform his loading in one phase i.e. 3 seconds. Almost Wuxia level of skill really but if I wanted a realistic game then I wouldn't have included the high magic, alchemy, revenants etc. It does make for an interesting challenge when designing monsters; I need something that will survive the sniper's attentions long enough to make it into combat but won't proceed to tear the party limb from limb without breaking a sweat.

This of course assumes that you regard these things as problems rather than features. Nothing wrong with weapons that are mostly useful for the initial volley or in large groups.

Oh and before you advise your players to take musketeers on with a bow you should remember that black powder weapons should count as armour piercing against old fashioned armour and that they should be more stunning than an arrow would be.

[Spence]

Of course in a fantastic setting the 'problems' of inaccuracy and long loading times can be solved by throwing points at it. Either by allowing PC's to take large amounts of penalty skill levels/loading skill levels or through enchanted weapons or spells.

One of my PC's has an enchanted rifle with 3 PSL's against range mods. More worryingly he is Speed 4 and now has enough loading skill to perform his loading in one phase i.e. 3 seconds. Almost Wuxia level of skill really but if I wanted a realistic game then I wouldn't have included the high magic, alchemy, revenants etc. It does make for an interesting challenge when designing monsters; I need something that will survive the sniper's attentions long enough to make it into combat but won't proceed to tear the party limb from limb without breaking a sweat.

This of course assumes that you regard these things as problems rather than features. Nothing wrong with weapons that are mostly useful for the initial volley or in large groups.

Oh and before you advise your players to take musketeers on with a bow you should remember that black powder weapons should count as armour piercing against old fashioned armour and that they should be more stunning than an arrow would be.

My personal take was to make loading and aim/fire/hit separate skills. For loading I established a basic load time with the load skill reducing the amount of time. Then the "did I hit" skill.

I had done some research that turned me away from a blanket AP vs armor. Arrows and crossbow bolts were pretty nasty and armor piercing themselves. But as I worked on it I realized I was making damage WAY too complicated.

I liked my loading and hitting build. But the damage part is still too messy.

Then the project went on the wayside. I should take a look and see if I can finish it out.

[Thia Halmades]

My lovingly hand-crafted, over 7 years in design Halliruch Campaign (where Thia Halmades first came to life, in fact) is a mid-level fantasy setting that uses firearms and very low-tech (but very powerful) giant robots. Not Escaflowne sized, but certainly enough to give one pause for thought. But that game is written as a 'transition' from one to the other and part of the conflict is with the wizard's guilds and the this and the that and a whole bunch of other plot based stuff.

But generally, in high fantasy they don't exist; it's too busy being all magic and swords and RAWR and so on. I say put guns in TA just to tick Steve off, but you know. That's me. :eg:

[Tonio]

I once played a fantasy game (it might've been some edition of D&D, but I'm not sure) where you could use an arquebus (old black powder rifle) which had an open-ended damage score. You'd roll a 10 sided die, and if the result was 10, you rolled another one and added. If this second one was 10, you'd roll a third and added, etc. On the other hand, if you rolled a 1, you rolled again and added, rolling again and adding if you rolled 10s again, but applied this damage to yourself instead of your target. I think it was that way. Basically, the damage was generally high, could be much higher on rare occasions, and on rare occasions YOU got hurt (backfire) instead of your target. A very dangerous and unpredictable weapon. I think it captured the flavor properly. =)

[Thia Halmades]

I once played a fantasy game (it might've been some edition of D&D, but I'm not sure) where you could use an arquebus (old black powder rifle) which had an open-ended damage score. You'd roll a 10 sided die, and if the result was 10, you rolled another one and added. If this second one was 10, you'd roll a third and added, etc. On the other hand, if you rolled a 1, you rolled again and added, rolling again and adding if you rolled 10s again, but applied this damage to yourself instead of your target. I think it was that way. Basically, the damage was generally high, could be much higher on rare occasions, and on rare occasions YOU got hurt (backfire) instead of your target. A very dangerous and unpredictable weapon. I think it captured the flavor properly. =)

AD&D 2nd Edition Arquebus. Open-ended d10 damage. I don't think anyone in my party fielded one.

[Tonio]

AD&D 2nd Edition sounds right... I remember how Gnomes were portrayed there (I loved them!), and the Arquebus sounds like the perfect weapon for them. In fact, I may have played a Gnome with an Arquebus once!

[AmadanNaBriona]

I'm a renaissance black powder geek, so I often include black powder in my games (especially if the game is gonna involve ships... Catapults & ballista just don't have the right "feel" for me). I have enough experience with the subject to have come up with some fairly good rules for them. If I can find my notes I might post some of them. I recall, in general, as doing them as a KA based on the caliber and type of gun, with +1 stun (because they basically bludgeon their way into a body, as opposed to an arrow which cuts), and extra DC's with boostable charges w/reduced by range to represent loading heavy and "point and blank" fire impact. All of them got Semi Armor Peircing, only vs "Real Armor", and proofed armor was built with hardened, only vs "Real Weapons".

IIRC, I handled loading with a variable Limit:Extra time or Requires a Dex Roll and Major Side Effects. Combined with the usual "real weapon" mishap tables and the fact that they're incredibly easy to foul this seems to best simulate my experiences... I've only seen one gun explosion from misuse (averted another, tho), but several bad accidents while trying to 'combat reload', usually from a stray ember lodged in the priming pan

[Bygoneyrs]

I always like to give "gun powder" to Dwarves and call it something like

"Breath of Mordin"

Stating that it has secret elements that defy all attemts to duplicate it
outside of the secret Dwarven temples that make it. Besides it is only
the Dwarves that have the skill to make the metal barrels strong enough
to be able to be used with it anyway as well too.

Penn

[PhilFleischmann]

But for a "typical" sort of Fantasy setting, IMO introducing gunpowder sort of spoils things.
I disagree. Although I generally prefer my fantasy without, I don't think it would really spoil all that much. It changes the nature of combat a little, and the nature of large-scale warfare a lot. But so does a "wand of magic missiles".

Things that IMO would spoil fantasy would be telecommunications, rapid transit, computers.

[Tonio]

I don't think you can categorically say anything "ruins" fantasy. I've read fantasy that involves computers, and it was awesome. Certainly a very different flavor from traditional High Fantasy... but great nonetheless. A strictly medieval fantasy setting wouldn't include gunpowder, but a Renaissance setting would certainly include it.

[Thia Halmades]

Guns, guns, guns. My life would be so boring without them. -- An old quote from a now long forgotten Shadowrun supplement.

[Shadowsoul]

One fantasy series which had gunpowder in it that springs to my mind is Michael A. Stackpole's 'DragonCrown War'. In which the Great Enemy/Dark Lady uses gunpowder weapons to assault a seemingly impregnable fortress.

It was an excellent series and I thoroughly enjoyed it. And the inclusion of gunpowder only made it more interesting.

The stand alone novel 'Court of the Air' is set in a Victorianesque/Steampunk world and that deals rather interestingly with the ideas of magical guns and guns versus magic. ALso a great read.

I would say what holds true for fantasy fiction holds true for RPGing as well. Although I am obviously rather biased.

Particularly because although I can enjoy an adventure in a 'typical fantasy setting' I would be bored to tears if I had to write one or run a game in one. That's just me I guess.

BTW. Thia Halmades, these primitive robots of yours, are they steam powered, magic or what?

[Spence]

I have located my Gun guideline for use in a fantasy game. Since I haven't been able to playtest it I am hesitant to post it for general consumption. I woudl be glad to email the doc to anyone interested in trying them out.

A note on them. They are not to recreate real world accurate firearms. They are specifically for introducing limited basic firearms into a fantasy game.

[Basil]

One fantasy series which had gunpowder in it that springs to my mind is Michael A. Stackpole's 'DragonCrown War'.

Of course, the granddaddy of them all is the "fire of Orthanc" as Aragorn called it, that was used to blow down the wall at Helm's Deep. :D

[Tonio]

Of course, the granddaddy of them all is the "fire of Orthanc" as Aragorn called it, that was used to blow down the wall at Helm's Deep. :D

What?! You're making that up... that wasn't in the movie! :whistle:


I kid, I kid...

[Lawnmower Boy]

According to my good old Eleventh Edition of the Britannica, people used to use saltpetre as an inhaled treatment for asthma and whooping cough. Take a piece of paper and soak it in a water-saltpetre solution (and that may be as easy to make as draining off water from a really fetid swamp and letting it evaporate for a while). Let the paper dry, put it in a brazier, and put it under the patient's mouth. Light the paper and -poof- a blast of black smoke with considerable amounts of stimulative nitrates (plus carbon black and sulphates in my example above) are released. Breath in, and, presto, instant symptomatic relief as air passages dilate.
I have no idea when doctors started doing this, but it's all pretty much old fashioned materia medica.
Point is, fantasy authors sometimes make a big deal of the "invention" of gunpowder. The issue here seems to be one of inventing a new use.

[Mr_Yuck]

We use gunpowder weapons in our game.

I've found that they cause no more problems that a powerful wand of fireballs. Heck, the wand 'shoots' faster, is usually more reliable, and is a bit easier to recharge with the prevelance of mages.

Make firearms very expensive to purchase.
Make the black powder (called 'dragon sand' in my campaign) very rare and expensive.
Players tend to be much more careful before firing their wepons!

You will find players may initially become enamored with them, but lose interest when their archer companion is making a monster a pincussion where they have fired only once. (if there was no misfire!)

<shrug> I think it adds a bit of flavor if carefully controlled. :D

[Basil]

An idea for those of you with a copy of Guns! Guns! Guns! 3rd Edition Revised; the formula for the optimum barrel length is dependent on the tech level of the propellant.

Now, while the Middle Ages are (IIRC) TL 4 or 5, one could assume the only available propellant is TL 1. This gives an optimum barrel length of 3+ meters for a the power (of the "cartridge") one might expect of a rifle. So, for a usable firearm, much of the propellant energy is lost (big flame out of the muzzle). Thus the firearm is not very powerful. And upping the amount of propellant runs into two problems: only so much propellant can be used (based on the volume of the projectile) before running a high risk of misfire, and the optimum barrel length goes up, as well.

End result? You can have firearms, you just can't have one with an impact even near that of a bow & arrow. :eg:

[Bismark]

I'm a renaissance black powder geek, so I often include black powder in my games (especially if the game is gonna involve ships... Catapults & ballista just don't have the right "feel" for me).

Of course, catapults are a different thing entirely when loaded with glass globes full of "specialist ammo" [an example from "real life" being the "incendiary mayonnaise" (burns and sticks like napalm - lovely!) invented by the Byzantines in the 7th century for their dragon ships (a fleet of which pretty much annihilated the Arab feet which had been besieging Constantinople for the previous 3 years).

The other (and at closer range, the main) weapon of those ships is even more fun (if you are not on the receiving end of it anyway) - the Greek Fire Siphon. Having access to the Romanian oilfields had its advantages - a nice light form of crude oil. This could be squirted a surprisingly long distance when propelled through a tube by dudes (in clothes with asbestos woven into them, believe it or not) operating a pump. The precise names for the type of pump involved escapes me.

I know that a TV program actually built and tested both the above weapons, and they were very, very scary.

Now imagine these weapons with "Fantasy" payloads (Alchemists of the world unite!)…

[AmadanNaBriona]

An idea for those of you with a copy of Guns! Guns! Guns! 3rd Edition Revised; the formula for the optimum barrel length is dependent on the tech level of the propellant.

Now, while the Middle Ages are (IIRC) TL 4 or 5, one could assume the only available propellant is TL 1. This gives an optimum barrel length of 3+ meters for a the power (of the "cartridge") one might expect of a rifle. So, for a usable firearm, much of the propellant energy is lost (big flame out of the muzzle). Thus the firearm is not very powerful. And upping the amount of propellant runs into two problems: only so much propellant can be used (based on the volume of the projectile) before running a high risk of misfire, and the optimum barrel length goes up, as well.

End result? You can have firearms, you just can't have one with an impact even near that of a bow & arrow. :eg:

I in general prefer my black powder weapons to hit a LOT harder than most bows, and a little better than crossbows, in order to give them a reason to exist in the context of the game world. S'not entirely inaccurate either.

The quality of powder issue is completely dead on, and when I boot up my FH game again I'm probably gonna add a RSR: Alchemist (or a similar "I make gunpowder" skill) limitation, and have the quality of a powder defined by the skill roll of its creator, possibly defined as an activation range for that batch (15- powder might be considered "Fine" or "Superior" grade, f'rinstance.)

Of course, catapults are a different thing entirely when loaded with glass globes full of "specialist ammo" [an example from "real life" being the "incendiary mayonnaise" (burns and sticks like napalm - lovely!) invented by the Byzantines in the 7th century for their dragon ships (a fleet of which pretty much annihilated the Arab feet which had been besieging Constantinople for the previous 3 years).

The other (and at closer range, the main) weapon of those ships is even more fun (if you are not on the receiving end of it anyway) - the Greek Fire Siphon. Having access to the Romanian oilfields had its advantages - a nice light form of crude oil. This could be squirted a surprisingly long distance when propelled through a tube by dudes (in clothes with asbestos woven into them, believe it or not) operating a pump. The precise names for the type of pump involved escapes me.

I know that a TV program actually built and tested both the above weapons, and they were very, very scary.

Now imagine these weapons with "Fantasy" payloads (Alchemists of the world unite!)…


Yeah, but then you wind up with Doomwheels, not to mention big reflector deathrays and the like, just fine for a high magic/Magictech/steampunk feel, but not always my cuppa tea (tho I do enjoy the style on occasion, ala Hawkmoon, Warhammer and others.)

I've never agreed with EGG that gunpowder muddies the waters of a fantasy world. One of my favorite fictional setting is Recluse by L.E. Modesitt Jr., and blackpower essentially winds up as a tool of the Order mages for the majority of the time periods of the series. Never killed them for me as fine fantasy novels.

[Basil]

Of course, catapults are a different thing entirely when loaded with glass globes
Load a catapult with glass globes (esp. if the glass is pre-Industrial-Revolution quality) and try launching them. Result: bits of glass and the globes' contents spread all over the catapult and the area immediately in front.

Catapults give an enormous acceleration---100 of g's for smallish ones. Glass does not survive that kind of acceleration.

full of "specialist ammo" [an example from "real life" being the "incendiary mayonnaise" (burns and sticks like napalm - lovely!) invented by the Byzantines in the 7th century for their dragon ships
That is what Greek Fire is!. BTW, where did you get the term "dragon ships"? I've never come across it before, at least as referring to Byzantine ships.

(a fleet of which pretty much annihilated the Arab f[l]eet which had been besieging Constantinople for the previous 3 years).

The other (and at closer range, the main) weapon of those ships is even more fun (if you are not on the receiving end of it anyway) - the Greek Fire Siphon.
Which pumped water through a brass tube, where the Greek Fire was introduced, causing the Greek Fire to combust. It was them pointed at the enemy ship(s), throwing "unquenchable" fire all over said ship.

That's right---Greek Fire flared into fire upon contact with water! It also floated on water, so water wouldn't put it out. Real nasty stuff.

I know that a TV program actually built and tested both the above weapons, and they were very, very scary.

TV? :sick: :sick:
If I hadn't read that Greek Fire existed, that would be enough to make me file it under "BS." Which is where I'm filing the idea that glass globes (full of a substance that ignites on contact with water) were ever fired from a catapult. Well, more than once...

[Bismark]

Load a catapult with glass globes (esp. if the glass is pre-Industrial-Revolution quality) and try launching them. Result: bits of glass and the globes' contents spread all over the catapult and the area immediately in front.
Catapults give an enormous acceleration---100 of g's for smallish ones. Glass does not survive that kind of acceleration.

That is what Greek Fire is!. BTW, where did you get the term "dragon ships"? I've never come across it before, at least as referring to Byzantine ships.


Which pumped water through a brass tube, where the Greek Fire was introduced, causing the Greek Fire to combust. It was them pointed at the enemy ship(s), throwing "unquenchable" fire all over said ship.

That's right---Greek Fire flared into fire upon contact with water! It also floated on water, so water wouldn't put it out. Real nasty stuff.



TV? :sick: :sick:
If I hadn't read that Greek Fire existed, that would be enough to make me file it under "BS." Which is where I'm filing the idea that glass globes (full of a substance that ignites on contact with water) were ever fired from a catapult. Well, more than once...

Well spotted, Basil:
I strongly suspect that the original containers fired from the catapults would have been ceramic and that they were glass on the TV prog to make the impact, etc. clearer visually (that'll teach me to write stuff when I am half asleep - I was going to add a sentence like that and forgot in the midst of mucho yawning).

The TV program (one of those 'how the hell did these ancient types build [whatever it is]) that was doing all the reconstruction was surprisingly good for its type. Like you, I am usually surprised when a TV program does not go completely off-beam when doing this type of thing (my pet hates include programs about medieval jousting when the 'knights' doing the demonstrations cannot even hold the lance the right way or have their shields facing in the right direction).

This particular program (damned if I can remember the name of it - it was on Channel 4 here in the UK last year) had the requisite number of Professor-types/experimental archaeologists, carpenters, metalworkers etc. mixing up the dreaded mayonnaise-like mixture, getting catapults of as authentic a type as they could make, etc. etc.).

The siphon that was built took a few iterations to get working decently (the instructions the builders were working from were - unsurprisingly - a little unclear, and the first few times there was a worrying amount of leakage around the joints, something you do not want with that kind of device), but it was quite scary and extremely unpleasant for the target (a scaled-down copy of a dromon-type vessel).

As for the term 'dragon ship' - I cannot remember exactly which context it was mentioned in during the program, but there were a few contemporary pictures shown, and some interesting iconography.

[Markdoc]

According to my good old Eleventh Edition of the Britannica, people used to use saltpetre as an inhaled treatment for asthma and whooping cough. Take a piece of paper and soak it in a water-saltpetre solution (and that may be as easy to make as draining off water from a really fetid swamp and letting it evaporate for a while). Let the paper dry, put it in a brazier, and put it under the patient's mouth. Light the paper and -poof- a blast of black smoke with considerable amounts of stimulative nitrates (plus carbon black and sulphates in my example above) are released. Breath in, and, presto, instant symptomatic relief as air passages dilate.
I have no idea when doctors started doing this, but it's all pretty much old fashioned materia medica.

Having SEEN this technique in use, a more usual result is gasp, wheeze collapse with streaming eyes in extreme discomfort, then cough mucus (occasionally admixed with blood). As a way of generating income for the faith healer, it's an old standby. As a way of relieving asthma, it works every bit as well as a kick to the 'nads: by instantly generating more discomfort, it makes the patient feel slightly better when the worst of the discomfort has passed.

cheers, Mark