Rune Magic

[Dr Divago]

Hi all
in my "revamping" of turakian magic i whant to create "rune magic"

my idea is there are some peoples (like dwarfs, for instance) who never developed full magic BUT use rune magic to
1) create ward and protect holy/important places
2) temporarily enchant some weapons and equipment

i found runic magic system on www.killershrike.com but i found it a bit too much complicated :D (still, i'll use something here)
and "standard" FHG2 turakian rune magic seems too easy

my idea about rune magic is
a) all rune spell need to get "trigger (can change whenever set up; +½)" and GM need to state some restrictin on trigger (like: can't say "whenever i want" nor "whenever i hit and did more than xyz damage")
b) all spell need to get "RSR: Rune Magic" and "RSR a PS used to craft rune"; the PS used is same from killershrike
c) all spell need some "Extra Time"; this is the time spent on *casting* the spell, added to the time spent to *crafting* the spell (time spent to craft is time needed for "RSR PS" skill roll)
d) all spell need a Obvious Focus (OAF for rune placed on a wall, OIF for runes placed on a sword); focus will be breakable but can be movable or not
e) all spell cost a lot END. my goal is to make rune long and expensive (END speaking) to make but long lasting

any other suggestion?
my goal is not to make rune magico 1) more powerful than arcane nor divine magic, 2) easyer than arcane nor divine magic, 3) too unbalancing toward not-magic class (warrior, assassins, barbarian, and all between) 4) too unbalancing toard economy (still rune can be sold but not so much economics: selling runed items can't be something PC can use to make money, nor something PC can buy easily everytime they come into big city)

[Shadowsoul]

As far as the economy is concerned you can just make it a matter of honour. A runesmith who has poured his heart and soul into a runic item would never sell it to a stranger for mere money. He'd have to give it to an ally, relative or friend. In Dwarf Clans runesmiths are looked after as a matter of course and so they don't need to actually sell the runes they make.

[Killer Shrike]

Feedback on why you found Runecrafting to be too complicated?

[Thia Halmades]

Clarification on how this system is less complicated than KS's system?

[Dr Divago]

Feedback on why you found Runecrafting to be too complicated?oh don't worry: your runecrafting is cool :)
but... i lost myself in ephemeral-permanent discussion XD
i think i'll use the rest of the system :) tweaked here and there to better suit my campaign
Edit
Now my boss are out of of sight so i can post a better reply :D (at work at this moment)
honestly, there is something i don't understand about your runesystem
- first: i need to create the "rune", i mean the power named "rune of xyz" with limitations (rsr, focus, etc)
- second: i need to pay only 1 point for familiarity

then i can use rune on whatever i whant, everytime i whant, to use i need only
a) time to inscribe rune
b) roll ps: skill to inscribe the rune
c) roll to cast rune spell
d) pay end for it
?

it seems for me a bit too much powerful...

[Killer Shrike]

oh don't worry: your runecrafting is cool :)
but... i lost myself in ephemeral-permanent discussion XD
i think i'll use the rest of the system :) tweaked here and there to better suit my campaign
Edit
Now my boss are out of of sight so i can post a better reply :D (at work at this moment)
honestly, there is something i don't understand about your runesystem
- first: i need to create the "rune", i mean the power named "rune of xyz" with limitations (rsr, focus, etc)
- second: i need to pay only 1 point for familiarity


...it seems for me a bit too much powerful...

Ok, fair enough, Ill start at the top:

1) Ephemeral vs Permanent -- basically think Potion vs Wondrous Item -- does the Rune have a small number of total uses that completely expend it, or does it stick around for a long time? Simple as that. One is obviously not as good as the other; one is temporary, the other is not. Temporary doesnt sound very Fantasy, so I went with the synonym Ephemeral which as a more genre feel to it (IMO).

Its really not that complicated in practice. Think of it like this:

a) If a Rune is something a Runecrafter scratches out on a dungeon door to explode if a monster approaches and it works once or a few times and thats the end of it would they want to pay character points for it? Would they want to take a long time making the Rune? No and No, respectively. Thus Ephemeral Runes -- they are the "fast cast" option for Runecrafters; they take a lot less time to make than Permanent Runes, and they don't cost Character Points to create, but as a trade off they must have Non-Recoverable Charges.

b) If a Rune is something applied to a weapon and the Runecrafter can use it over and over again, do they want it to have like say three uses and then need to be redrawn? Probably not -- that would get to be a pain and turn into a Resource Management ordeal. Thus if the Runecrafter is willing to take the time to create a good weapon that is going to be reusable, they can make a Permanent item, but as a trade off for adding a new permanent source of Magic to the campaign they (or a person they are making it for) must pay character points and apply the Independent limitation.

That's Ephemeral vs Permanent in a nutshell.

2) Any Magic System can bee too powerful or too weak for a given setting because it is all relative. A Magic System basically is what it is, and the GM decides if it works or not for their purposes and setting. So, it's always totally valid to say "this is too powerful / weak" for my game.

3) That being said I personally don't think of Runecrafting as being all that powerful in and of itself in the traditional way of measuring power, which is to say in combat. The real power and potentially destabilizing effect of Runecrafting is that it presents a codified way of making magic items usable by people other than the magic user themselves, which has the net effect of contributing to the overall level of available magic in a setting.

If you break down how Runecrafting works, it is not a combat casting magic system. All of their abilities to create magic are not relevant in actual combat. Even Ephemeral Runes take one hour per 10 AP to make by default; to do it in a combat time frame imposes a stiff -5 skill roll. Also, Runecrafting requires two skill rolls to succeed, greatly reducing the "lucky roll" opportunity -- to scribe an Ephemeral Rune with 50 AP in a Phase would impose a -5 penalty to the Runecrafting roll and a -10 penalty to the Media skill roll; good luck with that. In short to be combat capable via their magic, a Runecrafter has to already have made it in advance; this makes it a weak magic system compared to most when looked at from a combat analysis.

As an aside, the sample character provided is useful to analyze. With his runic items and tattoo that he's crafted he is competitive at his point range. Deprived of them he definitely is not.

Also, time is an important factor to a Runecrafter. In the typical roleplaying situation where the group goes from one adventure to the next or while the group is actively engaged in a quest, it is very likely that a PC Runecrafter is going to have finite opportunities of time to even engage in their craft, adding another limiting factor.

As to paying for Rune fams vs paying for powers themselves, you are not entirely correct. The Runecrafter pays for the Rune fams to know how to draw a Rune. They also have to pay for a Power Skill to be able to invest Runes with power, and one or more Media skills to be able to actually inscribe the Runes on different kinds of material. If they don't actually ever make a permanent Magic Item (or only make them for others) then that is their total cost. However
a) if you add up the points involved its actually very expensive to be a good reliable Runecrafter and
b) without Permanent Magic Items the Runecrafter is not really combat effective and
c) its an unlikely scenario for a PC Runecrafter and
d) there is a variant provided for a version of Runecrafting that is only used for Ephemeral Magic Items and
e) that variant is still not particularly powerful which serves as a useful measure of if its to advantageous or not.


The "Control Factors" at the top of the document actually sum all of this up so Ill just repeat it here:

CONTROL FACTORS
This system has:

* Volume & Frequency Control due to the time it takes to inscribe Runes
* Stiff Opportunity Cost Controls due to the Real Cost expenditures in Experience Points for Permanent Items
* Applicability Control due to having no direct combat implementation
* Acquisition Control due to the skill model and time required to learn and make new Runes


then i can use rune on whatever i whant, everytime i whant, to use i need only
a) time to inscribe rune
b) roll ps: skill to inscribe the rune
c) roll to cast rune spell
d) pay end for it
?


No. It goes like this:

A Rune is a Power Construct (ie either a single Power build or a compound Power build or framework of Powers), its SFX is its a symbol that is rendered in an appropriate way on the surface of a person, object, or structure, it has some means of activation, either at will by a bearer or via a trigger, and when it is activated the Power Construct it represents takes effect.

The act of putting a Rune on something is a time consuming and difficult one that has two aspects -- the physical rendering of the Runes appearance and the mystical charging of the Rune; if the rendering succeeds and the charging fails the Rune LOOKS right but is NOT MAGICAL. If the rendering fails the Rune is botched and doesn't work at all. Alternately a GM could instead have a Rune that was improperly work but be flawed / malfunction / unsafe if they prefer.

So, to be able to make a Rune a Runecrafter need three things:
1) Knowledge of what a Rune looks like, represented by a Familiarity w/ that specific Rune
2) The mystical ability to charge a Rune with energy to make it work, represented by a Power Skill
3) The artistic / mechanical ability to engrave, inscribe, chisel, tattoo, or otherwise render the Rune correctly upon a particular media, represented by Professional craft skills. As a side note because craft skills are an integral part of this process, a good Runecrafter that is say a tattooist is ALSO very skilled at making NORMAL tattoos; a Runecrafter that excels at carving Runes into wood is also a very skilled woodcarver, etc. This is very intentional and makes Runecrafters skilled craftsmen in addition to any magical ability they may have.

So, assuming a Runecrafter knows a Rune (has the Fam for it), this is all that is necessary to inscribe the Rune, per the document:

It takes the following effort to successfully inscribe an Ephemeral Rune:

1. One hour per 10 Active Points, uninterrupted
2. A KS: Runecrafting Skill Roll at -1/10 Active Points
3. The appropriate Media Skill Roll at -1/10 Real Cost


The following effort is required to create a Permanent Runic Item:

1. It takes one hour per 10 Active Points to inscribe the Item
2. A Runecrafting Skill Roll at a -1 penalty per 10 Active Points must be made
* The Runecrafter may opt to take two hours per 10 Active Points, reducing the penalty to -1/20 Active Points
* The Runecrafter may opt to take four hours per 10 Active Points, reducing the penalty to -1/40 Active Points
3. A Media Skill Roll at a -1 penalty per 10 Real Cost must be made
* If the Runecrafter opted to take two hours per 10 Active Points, this penalty is reduced to -1/20 Real Cost
* If the Runecrafter opted to take four hours per 10 Active Points, this penalty is reduced to -1/40 Real Cost


That's it. They aren't "casting" the rune, the are "crafting" the rune. There is no END cost. The effect of the Rune doesnt automatically turn on or anything like that. They basically take the time to make it, and make a couple of skill rolls, and thats it. If its Permanent they or the person they are making the item for also pay character points to cover the cost of the new item. That's it.


If a Runecrafter is making a brand new Rune (not using a Rune they've learned that someone else created), they must also go thru a process to successfully invent a new kind of Rune, but its important to understand the difference between a RUNE and AN ITEM UPON WHICH A RUNE IS INSCRIBED. A Rune is basically an abstract concept, putting the Rune on something to make a magical Runic Item is a concrete implementation of it.

Think of a Rune as a kind of logo -- like say the Pepsi logo. Someone came up with the design of that logo a long time ago. It is really a concept -- in your head you know basically what it looks like; to know that logo as a Runecrafter knows a Rune you would have to have a 100% accurate picture clear image of it in your mind. That logo can be (and has been) applied to a LOT of different surfaces made of a lot of different materials. Its been etched, its been enameled, its been engraved, its been painted on, its been carved into something, and Im sure someone somewhere had a tattoo of it at some point. The act of putting that logo on something requires some level of rendering skill (assuming it wasn't all done with robotic equipment on an assembly line). The person(s) rendering the logo didn't INVENT the logo, they are just REPRODUCING it. To be right it has to be perfectly rendered, but that is a product of the skill of the person rendering it as complicated by the needs of working on a particular medium.

Now pretend that logo could be MAGICAL. Pretend it could compel a person looking upon it with a great desire to drink the contents of whatever the logo is rendered upon. Now, anyone with sufficient skill can render this logo, but can anyone make it magical? No. Thus a Power Skill for Runecrafters to represent the mystical aspect of their craft. The next question is whether the Pepsi logo works indefinitely or if it only works one or more times and then has no more magical energy to power its effect. If its the former its a Permanent item and includes Independent in its build, and costs character points, if the later it has Non-Recoverable Charges and does not cost character points.

Now pretend Pepsi wanted a new logo and they're paying your Runecrafter to create it. Creating a NEW logo is a different effort than rendering an EXISTING logo. There is some discovery involved, probably some false starts, some draft versions or prototypes that are later discarded. In the end, a new logo is created (assuming the Runecrafter doesn't botch the job). Until the logo is invented it can't be rendered, but once it has been invented its a logo like any other that can be rendered, disseminated, etc.

Hope this helped.

[Dr Divago]

Hope this helped.:shock:
yes, this definitely helped :)

i like this system, and i'll use it :)
Edit
Well... as an added note...
did you created some "example runes"? =)
(yes... i seems lazy but it's just... i need to start a game from scratch and not much experienced hero player :\ )

[Killer Shrike]

Well, there are the examples given in the Runecrafting documents, the ones on the sample character, and some in this document at the bottom:

Machtig Characters (http://www.killershrike.com/SanDora/SanDoraInhabitants_Human_Human_Volkeralten_Machtig _Characters.aspx)


But, really, I designed the system to be pretty easy to make effects for. It should only take a minute or two to write up a particular Rune effect.

[runescience]

Hey KS and Dr:

Im going to jump in here and ask for some help from KS. I thought maybe Dr could benefit from my question. ITs not an attempt to hijack the thread :)

KS:
I really like what you've done with the machtig. I've tried to do something similar with my world since...geezz.. early 90's maybe. Im really not that good at particulars. At least not the way you've done yours. I am usually good with initial concepts but, then I cant translate them into game-ology.

You will find and intro to my AtirCampaign at:" http://runescience.googlepages.com/NewIndex.html

There are groups of Tribes listed for:

Sylvan Archers
Chardatian lancers
Waterfolk
Cabadon
Sword Dancers
Warlord heirs
Fire eaters
Sons of Julian
Aresin
and... Freemen of the cities.

Each group gives a bonus of something, but in general I let people make up the characters they want. It's not as structured as yours, and it seems to land me into trouble. I like the way yours are designed. I cant seem to get the question into exact words. Probably because im getting old lol. How do i get the 10 groups listed above into the format of the stuff in the link below?

http://www.killershrike.com/SanDora/SanDoraInhabitants_Human_Human_Volkeralten_Machtig _Characters.aspx

My magic is Runescience. Its ephemeral. Like chinese magic rice paper notes but are scripted onto surfaces. I've got this down.

The rest of the magic in the world is done by book magicians. The current rate of magic users is about 1 per 10,000. Hedge wizards are common 1 or 2 per medium sized town. Runescience, which is even lower on the totem than hedgewizardry is practiced by 1 out of every 5 people, usually for their occupation.

The odd hero has a magical ability now and then.

Any suggestions?

[Killer Shrike]

Well, wow, that's a really broad question. How best to answer...

Hmm...I could probably fill a document / article on the subject given time to develop it, but lets pretend we're just sitting across a table at Starbucks and I'm talking off the cuff. Im going to ramble, and wave my hands, mix metaphors, smash tangents together. Hopefully something useful will result...

I think of things like lego blocks. Modular. You take one and you take another and you jam em together and see if they fit. You look for synergy, you look for clean lines, you look to make some kind of form out of nothing. If they don't look good together you take em apart and look for a new bit.


So first things first, to build something you need building blocks. Thats where Packages come in for the HERO System. You need to make some Packages for Races, generic archetypes, and specific cultures / organizations. You need to compose them together to bring your setting to life. It's all well and good to say your setting has a City named Ularta and in that city reside the famed Axemen of Guul and the Flying Arbiters of Aarezalia but if you don't take the time to define them somehow what youre really saying is they arent important enough to describe. If a player wants to play one and youre like "ok, make it up yourself", while some players would be ok with that most would be very much the opposite.

I mean sure, people say what they like about the HERO System is that its an open system and you can do anything, and thats great and all in the abstract. It really is what makes the HERO System awesome. It's a big amorphous cloud of proto-stuff from which things can be formed.

But when it comes time to implement a concrete thing out of that primordial soup, some structure is a nice thing to have both for players, GM's, and the overall quality and consistency of the resulting setting. I mean if I make a Dwarf character and you make a Dwarf character, but there is no actual delineation of what a Dwarf is or isnt then not only are we both likely to make our Dwarves different, it's also impossible to say what exactly about our respective characters is "Dwarfy" and what is a personal quirk. Sure you can play a game like that but its very strange and not conducive to verisimilitude.

We don't want classes, and we don't want levels, but we also don't want a completely mish mashed mess. An artist doesnt just smear every pigment of paint theve got on every canvas, a chef doesnt just dump every ingredient in the kitchen into every dish, the architect doesnt just jam every single I beam and strut they can lay hands on into a building, and the GM shouldnt just dump every single "idea" they come up with into the game whole cloth. Also, things should "feel" right; they should have a certain plausibility to them or else its plastic and fake and unsatisfying. Things need to have a character and depth that entices even as it fulfills a persons interest.

I don't know in the end its an art, not a science. My best advice is to start small, but think big. Have the big ideas in your head, but make them real one small modular block at a time.

[Killer Shrike]

Now, talking specifics, the first thing I see when I look at the page you linked to is it looks like you have a very tight coupling between the special groups you list, and specific races. Then, later, you say PC's can only be human.

For starters, if players cant play one, put the info elsewhere; it doesnt belong here.

Seconders, if you dont present a race, say the megataurs, at its baseline and then show some mainstream examples and then turn around and say, hey here's an Uberclass populated by megataurs! What youre really saying is that the two things are synonymous. Youve coupled them together into a single entity and introduced them like that. Try saying instead:

Megataurs
flavor fluff flavor flave
Baseline Game Stats
+X this
+Y that
Flat ability
-Z something else
Hates Zetatuars

Talk about Megataur warriors, priests, thieves, poets, and janitors here and there. Make an iconic Megataur that is some general thing.

Then later present Uberclass

Uberclass
Some megataurs are members of Uberclass and are bad az. However there is some reason(s) why not all megatuars are Uberclass (either explicit or implicit).


It keeps things in perspective.


As to the rest of it, reorganize the page to give focus to what you want players to know / do. Give them direction. Get rid of everything else or put it on another page and link to it if necessary. The only thing useful to your players at this stage is things that help them make a starting character; everything else is fluff or drag at this juncture.

Unlike a game like D&D or Warhammer or Exalted, there is no Players Guide that tells a player for your campaign in easy steps what to do. Believe it or not, some players need that kind of structure. Some people are not self starters, and those are the people you are even bothering to write this stuff down for. Initiative takers are going to come ask you questions, work around things on their own, and fill in the blanks without having their hand held because that is their nature. Not your target audience. Youre laying things out for the other sort of player that looks at you and says "uh...what do we do now?" because they don't understand that making a character is the same in almost every single game...just the language being used to express the end result is different.

Basically thats all character design rules are anyway -- different syntaxes and frameworks for expressing an entity that can later interact within the code engine of the in-play rules. And while some players are able and willing to go straight after the startup.exe themselves and figure out anything they bump in to, you're providing the readme and an install wizard to the other players that aren't able to do this.

Hope that helped...

[Dr Divago]

Hey KS and Dr:

Im going to jump in here and ask for some help from KS. I thought maybe Dr could benefit from my question. ITs not an attempt to hijack the thread :)eh eh eh
no problem