RPG Superstars

[teh bunneh]

Has anyone besides me been following the Paizo "RPG Superstars" contest? What do y'all think of it so far? They're on the third round (Top 16 (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/rpgSuperstar)) now. The current challenge is to design a villain.

[Curufea]

I got the invite - but saw it was D&D specific so didn't bother.

[teh bunneh]

There are some interesting ideas out there, but one thing has struck me -- working within the confines of the SRD really, really limits what a person can build and how creative they can get with it. It didn't really matter much in the first round (design a country), but now that they're in the villains contest (where stat blocks are important) it really shows. If you read the judges' commentary, you can almost see them tacitly (and perhaps unconsciously) acknowledging this fact.

I'm not participating (they're really strict on how characters are built, and I'm just not familiar enough with d20). Still, it's a fun read. :)

[Curufea]

There is the unfamiliarity with the rules. But primarily I don't want to waste my time working on the challenge of fitting ideas to a set of rules that do not need new ideas. It's the common "design any clothing you want, then talk to the manufacturer and realise your choice is only what colour of straight jacket you get to be tied up in".

[NestorDRod]

Setting up a contest using only D&D as a system and calling it "RPG Superstars" is like setting up a baseball tourney with only teams in your own country and calling the "World Series." :doi:

[Bygoneyrs]

Pazio, is still a good company and it is to bad that they are sticking to the d20 v3.5 D&D
only campaigns. I use to post there myself and was a D20 guy too, but I will no longer
support a system that I refuse to play anymore.

Penn

[NestorDRod]

I did some surfing through their forums (it's a slow day here at work).

I love their response to a question about covering other games other than D&D/Fantasy. And I quote...

"No, there isn't enough of a market to make it worth our time (i.e., profitable)."

Uh huh. Good luck with that. :p

But the one that made me laugh out loud was the guy talking about superhero RPGs and complaining that systems like M&M and Hero "use some kind of arcane calculus... to build characters." Then he ponders about trying "some kind of d20 superhero game." :rofl:

[teh bunneh]

Maybe we need to do an RPG Superstars of Hero Games. :bounce:

Divide it into X number of rounds. Here's how Paizo did it:

Open Call: Design a wondrous item
Top 32: Design a country
Top 16: Design a villain (complete with stat block)
Top 8: Design three thematically linked monsters
Top 6: Design an encounter
Top 4: Submit a full adventure proposalBut since this is Hero, we would obviously modify it to fit our needs. No "wondrous item," for example, since that's pretty genre specific. Strict design rules and tight wordcount, but no limit on what genre or how many points (someone could create a cool Pulp villain for <150 points, or a Galactic Champions master villain on 650+).

Hmmm... this could be fun... :think:

[Thia Halmades]

Maybe we need to do an RPG Superstars of Hero Games. :bounce:

Divide it into X number of rounds. Here's how Paizo did it:
Open Call: Design a wondrous item
Top 32: Design a country
Top 16: Design a villain (complete with stat block)
Top 8: Design three thematically linked monsters
Top 6: Design an encounter
Top 4: Submit a full adventure proposalBut since this is Hero, we would obviously modify it to fit our needs. No "wondrous item," for example, since that's pretty genre specific. Strict design rules and tight wordcount, but no limit on what genre or how many points (someone could create a cool Pulp villain for <150 points, or a Galactic Champions master villain on 650+).

Hmmm... this could be fun... :think:

Sure. I'm game.

[Enforcer84]

Hi Game, I'm Hobby.

[Thia Halmades]

Pff. Hobby, you need to learn to be hardcore, baby. You need to be more like game.

[Bygoneyrs]

How about Build a better Magic system!!!

[Susano]

How about Build a better Magic system!!!

Now you're talking crazy.

[Susano]

Oh, and re: "Design three thematically linked monsters"

is it okay if I simply hand over the Asian Bestiaries? I'll show my work....

[teh bunneh]

Oh, and re: "Design three thematically linked monsters"

is it okay if I simply hand over the Asian Bestiaries? I'll show my work....

Actually, I was thinking you should be one of the judges. Your writing credentials don't exactly scream "amateur" you know. ;)

The way Paizo did it was, during the open call everyone submitted their magic item, and the judges chose the best 32 to go to the second round. After that, it's open voting (the judges post detailed reviews and make "official" recommendations of who they think should go to the next round, but everyone is free to vote).

32 seems like a lot, though. Maybe we should just start with 8... That would give us four rounds of judging... :think:

[Thia Halmades]

Curses. I can't submit my HICCoS.

[Susano]

Actually, I was thinking you should be one of the judges. Your writing credentials don't exactly scream "amateur" you know. ;)

The way Paizo did it was, during the open call everyone submitted their magic item, and the judges chose the best 32 to go to the second round. After that, it's open voting (the judges post detailed reviews and make "official" recommendations of who they think should go to the next round, but everyone is free to vote).

32 seems like a lot, though. Maybe we should just start with 8... That would give us four rounds of judging... :think:

I would be honored to be a judge.

[psychoticbarber]

I would love to give this a shot. Give me an excuse to get back into building Hero stuff.

[teh bunneh]

OK, here's my thought. We stage an Open Call; anyone who wants can participate. Everyone submit to a thread. The judges go through them, select the best 8. Those eight go to the next round, which is open to everyone to vote. Top four, top two -- four rounds total.

So what should the four rounds consist of? Paizo's got:
-- Open Call: Design a wondrous item
-- Top 32: Design a country
-- Top 16: Design a villain (complete with stat block)
-- Top 8: Design three thematically linked monsters
-- Top 6: Design an encounter
-- Top 4: Submit a full adventure proposal

Design a villain is good. Full adventure proposal is good for the final round. Design a wondrous item is too genre-specific. I like Design a Country, but it might be too generic; not showing off Hero-building skills. OTOH, this isn't just about mechanical build, but creativity and writing skill as well.

How about this:
Open call: Design a villain
Top 8: Design a country/city/orbiting space platform/whatever
Top 4: Design ???
Top 2: Full adventure proposal

Other suggestions?

Second question: Who should be the official judges? I think Surbrook would make an excellent choice. Not only is he a published Hero writer, but he's also versed in several different genres. I kinda doubt the Hero guys would be interested. Who else would be a good judge?

[psychoticbarber]

How about this:
Open Call: Design a magical item/piece of tech on X number of points
Top 8: Design a villain
Top 4: Design a country/city/orbiting space platform/whatever
Top 2: Full adventure proposal


Bolded my suggestions for a changed outline.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Second question: Who should be the official judges? I think Surbrook would make an excellent choice. Not only is he a published Hero writer, but he's also versed in several different genres. I kinda doubt the Hero guys would be interested. Who else would be a good judge?

from here on the boards... right at the top of the list IMO, would be some of the other legendary regular board posters who've worked as freelancers for DOJ or as published authors using the system under license: Scott "Gestalt" Bennie, Keith Curtis, RDU Neil, Shadowcat1313 (or another of the Traveller Hero design team), uh.... stalling here. I know I'm forgetting a passel of folk.

Zornwil and some of the other core "Goodman Institue" types have kinda become the quantum physics department here, breaking the game down to core axioms, and might make great judges as well.

We could always ask Aaron Alston, He Who is Revered by HEROdom, if he'd lend a critical eye :D

[teh bunneh]

Open Call: Design a magical item/piece of tech on X number of points
Top 8: Design a villain
Top 4: Design a country/city/orbiting space platform/whatever
Top 2: Full adventure proposal

Yeah, I like that. Very nice.


from here on the boards... right at the top of the list IMO, would be some of the other legendary regular board posters who've worked as freelancers for DOJ or as published authors using the system under license: Scott "Gestalt" Bennie, Keith Curtis, RDU Neil, Shadowcat1313 (or another of the Traveller Hero design team), uh.... stalling here. I know I'm forgetting a passel of folk.

Zornwil and some of the other core "Goodman Institue" types have kinda become the quantum physics department here, breaking the game down to core axioms, and might make great judges as well.

We could always ask Aaron Alston, He Who is Revered by HEROdom, if he'd lend a critical eye :D

All good ideas. Howzabout Derek Heimforth? I'll drop 'em a PM to see if they're interested.

In round one, I think all the judges should get a free "This 1 winz teh intarnets" pick. If we have four judges, each one gets to choose one person who gets into round two, then the other four choices are determined by consensus.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Bolded my suggestions for a changed outline.


Yeah, I like that. Very nice.I like that too. We could make it even more generic by tying it explicitly to the noun hierarchy (thing, person, place, idea):

Open Call: Design a "Thing" (i.e., a magic item, a techie gadget, etc.)
Top 8: Design a "Person" (i.e., a character of some kind, probably -- but not necessarily -- a villain.)
Top 4: Design a "Place" (i.e., a base, a country, a kingdom, a planet, a city, etc.)
Top 2: Design an "Idea" (i.e., a full adventure.)

If we wanted to get tricky, we could do up the Ideas (i.e., the full adventures) "Iron Chef" style, where the adventure has to feature the finalist's Thing, Person, and Place.


Ooooh...


Or if we wanted to get really tricky, what if the adventure has to feature the other finalist's Thing, Person, and Place...? :eg:

This might really test the finalists' creativity on another level. After all... in RPG writing, you're not always working with your own creations. It's not like I made up Black Harlequin to go with the Fatal Attractions adventure in Champions Battlegrounds. ;)

[teh bunneh]

Open Call: Design a "Thing" (i.e., a magic item, a techie gadget, etc.)
Top 8: Design a "Person" (i.e., a character of some kind, probably -- but not necessarily -- a villain.)
Top 4: Design a "Place" (i.e., a base, a country, a kingdom, a planet, a city, etc.)
Top 2: Design an "Idea" (i.e., a full adventure.)

I like that! :thumbup:


Or if we wanted to get really tricky, what if the adventure has to feature the other finalist's Thing, Person, and Place...? :eg:

That's a cool idea. The only thing is, since I don't want to tie the contest down to any specific genre, the finalist might be stuck with a FH villain and a Pulp Hero thing and a Galactic Champions place. How about you have to use at least one of the three (more if you can logically fit them in)?

BTW, Derek and Scott Bennie have agreed to be judges; Zornwil has declined. Now we've got three! Haven't heard from the others yet.

[Susano]

I like that! :thumbup:


Seconded. :thumbup::thumbup:

[psychoticbarber]

I like that too. We could make it even more generic by tying it explicitly to the noun hierarchy (thing, person, place, idea):

Open Call: Design a "Thing" (i.e., a magic item, a techie gadget, etc.)
Top 8: Design a "Person" (i.e., a character of some kind, probably -- but not necessarily -- a villain.)
Top 4: Design a "Place" (i.e., a base, a country, a kingdom, a planet, a city, etc.)
Top 2: Design an "Idea" (i.e., a full adventure.)

If we wanted to get tricky, we could do up the Ideas (i.e., the full adventures) "Iron Chef" style, where the adventure has to feature the finalist's Thing, Person, and Place.


Ooooh...


Or if we wanted to get really tricky, what if the adventure has to feature the other finalist's Thing, Person, and Place...? :eg:

This might really test the finalists' creativity on another level. After all... in RPG writing, you're not always working with your own creations. It's not like I made up Black Harlequin to go with the Fatal Attractions adventure in Champions Battlegrounds. ;)

Love it. This is awesomesauce in a can.

[Curufea]

Possibly this thread should be moved to general roleplaying as well?

[Thia Halmades]

I like that! :thumbup:



That's a cool idea. The only thing is, since I don't want to tie the contest down to any specific genre, the finalist might be stuck with a FH villain and a Pulp Hero thing and a Galactic Champions place. How about you have to use at least one of the three (more if you can logically fit them in)?

BTW, Derek and Scott Bennie have agreed to be judges; Zornwil has declined. Now we've got three! Haven't heard from the others yet.

No, actually, you're both right. One would argue that you may be allowed to 'revise' certain elements within reason to fit into your setting, so we don't end up with everyone having a RIFTS adventure on their hands, but certainly the larger challenge is making awesomesauce with someone else's ingredients from scratch.

[ghost-angel]

Looks cool. I think I might throw my hat in on this one.

[teh bunneh]

Possibly this thread should be moved to general roleplaying as well?

You're right. Consider it done. :)

[Curufea]

BTW, I'm happy to host all these entries on the wiki so people can update their projects in a continual fashion.

[Sketchpad]

Ooo .. sounds cool :) Can I enter as well?

[teh bunneh]

Ooo .. sounds cool :) Can I enter as well?

Of course you can! Everyone is invited to participate (well... maybe not those with professional Hero publishing credit... we'll see). If I don't hear from the other guys I invited to be judges, I'll bite the bullet and be the fourth judge. I don't think I'm as qualified as some others, but this whole thing was my idea... :o

Which board should we post it on? Champions seems to get the most traffic; that or Hero System Discussion.

[psychoticbarber]

I'd recommend Hero System Discussion...it's where I head first after I'm done in my CP.

[ghost-angel]

Of course you can! Everyone is invited to participate (well... maybe not those with professional Hero publishing credit... we'll see). If I don't hear from the other guys I invited to be judges, I'll bite the bullet and be the fourth judge. I don't think I'm as qualified as some others, but this whole thing was my idea... :o

Which board should we post it on? Champions seems to get the most traffic; that or Hero System Discussion.

I'm not good enough to be a judge huh? I see how it is... I know where you live bunny!

:D

[tancred]

I'm gonna have to cast a goblin vote for G-A as a judge here.
After all, who ELSE has read every single book?:D

[rjcurrie]

I'd recommend Hero System Discussion...it's where I head first after I'm done in my CP.

I would tend to agree that "Hero System Discussion" would be the place for thsi. I always thought "General Roleplaying" was for non-Hero things or things that applied to any game.

[teh bunneh]

I'm not good enough to be a judge huh? I see how it is... I know where you live bunny!

:D

If you'd like to be Judge #4, that's fine with me! That means I'll get to participate, not just judge. :D

[ghost-angel]

I'm gonna have to cast a goblin vote for G-A as a judge here.
After all, who ELSE has read every single book?:D

Steve :)

While I was just joshin' the Bunneh I'd be all for judging.


(I can't have been the only one to read all the books can I?)

[Susano]

Steve :)

While I was just joshin' the Bunneh I'd be all for judging.


(I can't have been the only one to read all the books can I?)

I haven't.

[tancred]

Steve :)

While I was just joshin' the Bunneh I'd be all for judging.


(I can't have been the only one to read all the books can I?)

Well of course Steve. :D But he wasn't on the list to choose from.

What I should have said was, all the PAGES of ALL the books.
I've skimmed my books (all but the 2 I got for Christmas), but I know for a fact I haven't read all of them all the way through.

You, on the other hand, have reviewed most of them, which means you read at least most of them in way more detail than a lot of us.

[ghost-angel]

I've read every page of every book, including the Indices.

(with the current exception of Cops, Crews, And Cabals which I'm in the middle of)

[Fedifensor]

The idea is interesting, though the "design a place" aspect didn't really thrill me. I'd rather see the strength of HERO as a universal system explored, and change that to "design a setting". Basically, 500 or 1000 words giving a synopsis of a campaign that people could use, including any HERO-specific rules adjustments (special magic system for a fantasy campaign, etc).

[psychoticbarber]

The idea is interesting, though the "design a place" aspect didn't really thrill me. I'd rather see the strength of HERO as a universal system explored, and change that to "design a setting". Basically, 500 or 1000 words giving a synopsis of a campaign that people could use, including any HERO-specific rules adjustments (special magic system for a fantasy campaign, etc).

That's a really, really small number of words for an entire setting. I write papers on a regular basis that are twice that, and they're piddling, undergraduate-level research papers.

500 words is about two pages double-spaced, or a single page single-spaced.

I understand you intend it to be a synopsis, but for me, the power of a setting comes in the details, not the over-arching themes.

[Shaddakim]

One of the things you need to consider is that college papers are written on a different page format than published RPG product. Different font size as well. 1000 words is enough to adequately give the feel of a setting without getting deep into the crunch material. No, it won't be fully flushed out, but it will provide enough space to determine if the idea is "rockstar quality". That is the important point.

I think that starting with an initial cut of 8 is too few. I'd recommend starting with 16 making it to the second round. Then go to 8 and then to 6, ending with a pool of 4 for the final round. This gives a better selection for voting each round.

PatrickW

[ghost-angel]

Settings, however, can be universal to any RPG - especially in a very brief overview.

The idea here is to show off the HERO System specifically.

While a setting concept would be interesting - there's no mechanics involved, thus it is outside the scope of the contest for our purposes.

[teh bunneh]

There definitely will be a wordcount limit for each phase of the contest. Paizo did 200 words for the "thing," 500 words for the "person," and (IIRC) 1000 words for the "place" (it might have been only 500 words for the place though; I'd have to look again).


I think that starting with an initial cut of 8 is too few. I'd recommend starting with 16 making it to the second round. Then go to 8 and then to 6, ending with a pool of 4 for the final round. This gives a better selection for voting each round.

That seems fine on first glance, but I'm worried that we might not get enough entries in the first round. If we get 18 entries and choose 16 to go to the next round, that's a case of "everybody wins!" which I don't think we want to do...

OTOH, if we get 30+ entries, then having a starting pool of 16 might be worth considering. OTOOH, polls on the Hero boards only allow for 10 options, so we'd have to create two threads for that round of voting. Though two threads might not be a bad idea for that first round, to allow everyone to vote for two entries... :think:

What do you guys think?

[Curufea]

I'd like to implement the scoring strategy we used over on Game Chef for the RPG design contest -
Part of the qualifications for an entry is the agreement to review (and rate) 5 other entries. Failure to do so disqualifies your entry.

All you need then is a rating scheme similar to that at Game Chef-
http://www.game-chef.com/rules.shtml

i.e. a rating of 1 to 10 in the following 5 areas:
Creative and Effective Incorporation of Rules
Clarity
Completeness
Estimated Effectiveness in Play
Swing Vote