[B]Is anyone else pissed over 2004?[/B]

[TheImperialKhan]

I don't don't know about the rest of you but when I saw that Pulp Hero and Ultimate Armor had been wanked from the 2004 schedule I frigging saw RED! :mad:

I've been waiting for new material for JI/Pulp Hero for almost twenty years. I've been waiting in great anticipation for Ultimate Armor since it was originally announced back in the 90s! I was royally annoyed in 2002 when I found out that I would have to wait until late 2004, another 2+ years, before DOJ would get around to them. But I consoled myself with the fact that at least I had a year of publication.

Only to learn just now that DOJ isn't publishing them in 2004 after all. They've been pulled in favor of more material for Fantasy Hero, something I have absolutely no interest in at all, and pushed back to some nebulous date in the future. After waiting this long I'm being told "Just buy what we give you and stop complaining, old man. Maybe we'll get around to it before you croak." You'll pardon me if I don't hold my breath!

Now right here at these boards a few months ago Pulp Hero was voted the Genre book we most wanted. And in an even more recent poll the Powered Armor Archtype rated the top spot. Only to be ignored on the 2004 schedule. So again I ask the question: Am I the only one who's pissed about this?

[keithcurtis]

Sorry you didn't get what you wanted, IK. But future schedule are always tentative. There are plenty of folks (like myself) overjoyed at the amount of FH material underway. I don't think DoJ wans to diversify too quickly.

Keith "Always in motion is the future" Curtis

[TechnoViking]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan
I don't don't know about the rest of you but when I saw that Pulp Hero and Ultimate Armor had been wanked from the 2004 schedule I frigging saw RED! :mad:


I'm disappointed that Pulp Hero will not be out till 2005, but I'm not mad. I think the 2004 schedule is great. Did you ever think you would see 18 Hero System books in a year. 18!!!

Now I think the delay for Pulp Hero is the research can be done so it can be done right. I would rather wait a year and have a high quality book rather than so-so book.


Only to learn just now that DOJ isn't publishing them in 2004 after all. They've been pulled in favor of more material for Fantasy Hero, something I have absolutely no interest in at all, and pushed back to some nebulous date in the future.


Ok your ONE PERSON who cares less about Fantasy Hero, most people I know can't wait till it is released. I think Fantasy Hero is a better seller than Justice Inc. ever was.

DOJ is a company who must make money to stay in business. It seems like that Steve, Darren, and the gang seem always open to comments (believe I have given them some weird ones :)) and I do think they listen. But in the end they have to do what will make the company profitable.

Mike

[Steve Long]

To clarify: we have never, to my knowledge, promised either Pulp Hero or The Ultimate Armor as 2004 releases, as you seem to think and imply. We (or, actually, I) have stated on more than one occasion that they would not be on the 2004 schedule, for very good reasons (specifically, the time I need to research and write them, which I don't have room for in the schedule this year or next).

You're free to dislike the 2004 schedule if you want, for whatever reasons you want. But please don't distort the facts when voicing your complaints.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan
After waiting this long I'm being told "Just buy what we give you and stop complaining, old man. Maybe we'll get around to it before you croak." You'll pardon me if I don't hold my breath!
As anyone who knows me can attest, I have a difficult time dealing with negativity. Not just negativity toward Hero Games or Hero products, but negativity in general, so I will try to only address this one point. :)

I do not believe anyone from DOJ said to "just buy what we give you and stop complaining." I think what DOJ was saying was "This is what we think we can do next year. I hope you like it." Those are two very different things.

[Derek Hiemforth]

DOJ cannot please everyone. It's flat-out impossible. All they can do is put together a publishing schedule that they think makes sense in terms of customer interest, scheduling, and profitability.

You're upset that Fantasy Hero support books are coming before Pulp Hero. Well, I know many Hero gamers who would have been upset if it was the other way around. Now what is DOJ supposed to do?

Let's have a little perspective, here. Assuming Pulp Hero is the big genre book for 2005, then it will be coming out in DOJ's fourth year of controlling the Hero Games name and line. In those four years, they will have also put out genre books for Supers, Sci-Fi, Martial Arts, Fantasy, and Modern Adventure, as well as dozens of support books (including support books for each genre book), and several Ultimate books.

Four years.

In the four years prior to DOJ taking over, Hero Games/Cybergames came out with... let's see... ONE book. And the only things in it related to the HERO System were some Fuzion characters that had been hastily-converted to 4th Edition Hero.

I'll take DOJ any day. :)

I for one am glad that they're putting support books for each genre book on the schedule, even it means other genre books have to get pushed back. Failure to support genres other than Supers is what prevented the HERO System from being taken seriously as a universal system in the past. If we ever want HERO System to be a serious player in anything other than Supers, then there have to be support books for other genres. And when Pulp Hero does make it on to the schedule, then it will benefit from this philosophy too, as we get nifty two-fisted derring-do goodness to go with Pulp Hero. :)

[SAVeira]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
DOJ cannot please everyone. It's flat-out impossible. All they can do is put together a publishing schedule that they think makes sense in terms of customer interest, scheduling, and profitability.

You're upset that Fantasy Hero support books are coming before Pulp Hero. Well, I know many Hero gamers who would have been upset if it was the other way around. Now what is DOJ supposed to do?

Let's have a little perspective, here. Assuming Pulp Hero is the big genre book for 2005, then it will be coming out in DOJ's fourth year of controlling the Hero Games name and line. In those four years, they will have also put out genre books for Supers, Sci-Fi, Martial Arts, Fantasy, and Modern Adventure, as well as dozens of support books (including support books for each genre book), and several Ultimate books.

Four years.

In the four years prior to DOJ taking over, Hero Games/Cybergames came out with... let's see... ONE book. And the only things in it related to the HERO System were some Fuzion characters that has been hastily-converted to 4th Edition Hero.

I'll take DOJ any day. :)

I for one am glad that they're putting support books for each genre book on the schedule, even it means other genre books have to get pushed back. Failure to support genres other than Supers is what prevented the HERO System from being taken seriously as a universal system in the past. If we ever want HERO System to be a serious player in anything other than Supers, then there have to be support books for other genres. And when Pulp Hero does make it on to the schedue, then it will benefit from this philosophy too, as we get nifty two-fisted derring-do goodness to go with Pulp Hero. :)

Very well said. Collecting HERO books was a snap for my wallet in the old days, because there was no product. My wallet may hurt with DOJ in charge, but I am happy that they run the show. :p


S.A. Veira

[TheImperialKhan]

Originally posted by Steve Long
To clarify: we have never, to my knowledge, promised either Pulp Hero or The Ultimate Armor as 2004 releases, as you seem to think and imply. We (or, actually, I) have stated on more than one occasion that they would not be on the 2004 schedule, for very good reasons (specifically, the time I need to research and write them, which I don't have room for in the schedule this year or next).

You're free to dislike the 2004 schedule if you want, for whatever reasons you want. But please don't distort the facts when voicing your complaints.

Pulp Hero was listed as a probable for late 2004 on the old 2004 page which you just today replaced. I can also recall your stating on the old boards, which can no longer be accessed, that you were looking forward to writing it. While it wasn't set in stone, nothing else on the schedule for 2004 was either and they all seem to have made it onto the new schedule, and quite a bit more besides.

If you find that you lack the time to write the book might I suggest that Mr. Allston or Mr. Stackpole, who along with Mr. Peterson wrote the original JI, would be able to take care of that for you. And as I now know how difficult the editing process is I volunteer to work on the book to make certain that it's formatted correctly in accordance with the Writer's Guidelines, and at no charge. This would reduce the amount of time you need to spend on it down as low as I can think to bring it.

As for Ultimate Armor although it was not actually on the schedule I remember your saying somewhere, probably in a post here at the boards, that it would be one of the first Ultimate books. UMA is out, Ultimate Vehicle is out, and Ultimate Brick and Ultimate Mystic are now on the schedule. But still no Ultimate Armor. It looks more like this will be one of the last Ultimate books rather than one of the first.

Mind you, I'm not complaining about the number of books on the schedule. Or even the titles themselves really. Sorry if I kinda bashed FH, I actually find the setting books kind of interesting. But I'm terribly disappointed that Pulp Hero has again gotten lost in the shuffle. And I'm very worried that when the 2005 schedule comes out it wont be there either, or on 2006, 2007, 2008 etc. It's almost as though the old pre-DOJ pattern is back, at least where the games that I most enjoy are concerned.

[TechnoViking]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan
Pulp Hero was listed as a probable for late 2004 on the old 2004 page which you just today replaced. I can also recall your stating on the old boards, which can no longer be accessed, that you were looking forward to writing it. While it wasn't set in stone, nothing else on the schedule for 2004 was either and they all seem to have made it onto the new schedule, and quite a bit more besides.


Pulp Hero will be a big project, probably why is got nix from 2004. You can only have so many big projects in a year. I know that Steve has a soft spot for Dark Champions, and it is his company :)


If you find that you lack the time to write the book might I suggest that Mr. Allston or Mr. Stackpole, who along with Mr. Peterson wrote the original JI, would be able to take care of that for you. And as I now know how difficult the editing process is I volunteer to work on the book to make certain that it's formatted correctly in accordance with the Writer's Guidelines, and at no charge. This would reduce the amount of time you need to spend on it down as low as I can think to bring it.


MUST CONTROL FINGERS OF FLAMES!!! Ok, really I understand that you are miffed that Pulp Hero is not coming out, but you can not seriously except DOJ to pay a the expense of hiring Aaron Alliston or Steve Peterson (who is not in the RPG biz any more) and have an unknown editor produce a major product just to please you. That is really naive thinking.


It's almost the old pre-DOJ pattern is back, at least where the games that I most enjoy are concerned.

Well... poop occurs. Sorry you feel this way. My suggestion is to support Hero Games with the products you like and not get the others. I'm sure they will understand. I'm sure Pulp Hero will come out, just not soon.

Also, FREd pretty much has most the talents that were in the original JI (except Aura Reading, and some I probably forgot). That is the beauty of the Hero System, if something is not there you have the tools to make it. Try converting/writing some rules for a Pulp genre. Probably a better use of your energy.

Mike "Your Frieldly Neighborhood Flamer Man" Basinger

[Quasar2k]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan
So again I ask the question: Am I the only one who's pissed about this?

Offhand, I'd say... yes....

I read your posts on this topic carefully, and while I can see your point, I can really only come up with one appropriate response:

Lighten up.

First off, here's a news flash- the world ain't perfect, and we don't always get what we want.

Secondly, utilizing your own logic, if it's only the games that interest "you", the epononmous "you", then DoJ shouldn't bother to print anything other than Champions products for the next two years, 'cause that's all I'm interested in- and I have almost 2000 posts worth of HEROphiles on my side. The guys at DoJ are working their collective rear ends off to keep putting quality, intelligent product on the shelves as quickly as possible. The pool of acceptable talent is unfortunately quite small in the industry at large; factor in to that the stringent requirements of both form and content inherent in a HERO product and you get a decidedly smaller number. This isn't the d20 field here, where anybody can slap something down and get it published (a gross exaggeration, I know, but you explain to me 50 3ed books in a year); no, this is the big leagues. If you think you have what it takes to cut it, then by all means, submit a proposal and see what happens- maybe you'll get Pulp Hero out faster that way. Beyond that, though, if you honestly believe Steve or Darren is going to let you edit a major genre book untested, you'd probably better switch to decaf.

I will go on the record by saying I honestly don't care for Fantasy Hero much either, but I care even less for Pulp Hero. However, I can easily understand the dizzying amount of work that would go into such a project to make sure it's right. Especially when the immediate reward for all of that effort is some yutz on these boards going off about "how much it sucked" or "X wasn't right; I would've done this!" Some days I honestly don't see why Steve and Darren bother. Oh, wait, yeah, I do know: because they're committed to keeping HERO alive.

As far as the Ultimate Armor goes, there's plenty of stuff already out there that can easily adapt to whatever needs you may have- the Ultimate Vehicle seems to be the primer I will use when I start building my armor suits for the game I'm running.

Thirdly, and most importantly, who taught you manners? If I teed off on somebody like that in the real world, my father'd whomp my butt into the hospital without breaking stride- and I'm thirty years old. Perhaps it's a touch old-fashioned, but a little civility would probably carry a bit more weight. Too many people dismiss you out of hand when you start screaming about how pissed off you are about the 2004 schedule. Maybe you should count your blessings there IS a 2004 schedule.

[GradonSilverton]

PATIENCE... YOU MUST LEARN PATIENCE!!!!

I'd rather waite for a great, well thought out and researched book than one that had been thrown together hastly to make it to publishing.....

Thats what computer RPG companies do....and frankly, the early releases SUCK! I despise the fact that their are nearly 16 pages of 5th ED Errata for me to review....I know you cant find all problems (not a knock against anyone) but I'd rather more time have been taken for review ect before publishing.

All good things come to those who wait!

[Toadmaster]

While I was a bit disappointed that Justice Inc didn't make it onto the 2004 schedule I was actually more surprised and pleased by how much of the material was not Champions. I am glad to see DoJ is not following the old HERO games model of producing 20 Champions books for every non-Champions book produced (perhaps a slight exageration). I think they are doing a good job of pushing HERO as a Universal system instead of a supers game that kinda works for other stuff too. In the past with the exception of FH the only non Champions material was the genre book and nothing else seemed to come along for that genre. StarHERO and FantasyHERO were givens from a commercial stand point because those traditionally have been the most successful RPG's. I'm glad to see them well supported even if I would have liked to see more genre books.

Something I find rather odd is how many people here get upset about waiting for their pet genre, I assume most of us are long term HERO gamers and most of the popular genres were covered in 4th ed or the earlier DI and JI, FH actually has a 3rd and 4th ed plus some source books. For those who didn't buy them before some are still available as PDF's and finally these are primarily background, not rules so whats the big deal about buying CoC, D&D, Boothill, Daredevils etc and converting them over, even if DoJ brought out the genre book I'm sure many would still buy these related products for the additional material offered.

[TheImperialKhan]

It seems from the responses that I've gotten that this board is nothing but a cheering section and anyone who isn't cheering is immediately squashed.

To point out a couple of things that some people seem to have missed.

1.) DOJ had no trouble affording Mr. Allston's work on the Champions genre book. As such there is no reason to assume they couldn't afford him for Pulp Hero. Add in the fact that Allston loves the genre and had considerable material that he wanted to write for it, as referenced through his website. I don't think it would take much convincing to bring him aboard for the project and DOJ might even convince him to do it for a bit less money.

2.) I offered to re-format the manuscript where needed. Getting the material into the right format is very time-consuming but also pretty simple and requiring no decision-making what-so-ever. By rights it should be done by the author but it often isn't. It's one of Steve's biggest headaches and eats up a huge amount of time. I know this because Steve told me. Since it's more-or-less scut work why shouldn't DOJ use me, or whoever is willing, to do it.

3.) I've waited almost 20 years for new JI/Pulp Hero material. Don't you think that that's pretty damned patient? I certainly do.

And Quasar2k, no offense but I don't need a lecture on manners from you. I need to vent once in a while or I'll wind in the hospital with another heart attack. I'd really rather avoid that. I might not be so lucky the next. You don't mind do you.

[GradonSilverton]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan
It seems from the responses that I've gotten that this board is nothing but a cheering section and anyone who isn't cheering is immediately squashed.

The response you've gotten in this THREAD is just not the one you were wanting....when you posted the question you came in with guns blazing, and frnakly everyone else reached for their weapons and started firing back, thats human nature. Now as for else where in this board, I dont see it. I've read many a post about problems with Hero (system, books, etc.) as well as many who prefer other systems and why (there is a decent thread about Mutants and Masterminds vs Hero).

Steve was a little straight foward in his reply for this post b/c I'm sure he believes (and wether you are him are correct in what you disagree about we/I dont know) that you put out mis-information...along with the guns blazing analogy again. When you replied with back handed attacks (like inferring Steve chainged the 2004 page just to make you look wrong), you then draw the wrath of everyone else who believe in what Steve puts together as a whole...attacking his character opens yourself up to attacks on your character.

And YES you do need a lecture in manners. Discussion Boards are meant to be places of debate, ideas, etc. When you go personal, debates turn ugly, and when its your fault they turn ugly, you need to rethink your course in the debate.

[Koshka]

Just to establish my position here, if JI/Pulp Hero were coming out in 2004 I would be first in line at the doors to the GenCon dealers room, credit card in hand. I'll probably pick up Fantasy Hero, but it's not as big a thing for me.

That said, I'm not ticked over the 2004 schedule. They've got a ton of work crammed into that year. There's no way they can fit a good Pulp Hero in as well, and I'm just as glad they don't want to fit a not-so-good Pulp Hero into the schedule. Yes, there's a couple books I think they could cut to make room for Pulp Hero IF I were the only customer whose opinion mattered, but we all know better than that ;) .

A friend of mine tried to talk me into sending in a proposal to write Pulp Hero myself. Fortunately, I'd already seen on the old boards that Steve called dibs on that one, so I didn't waste any of my time putting the proposal together (or any of Steve's time turning it down :) ). However, I do know a lot about the period, so I have some idea of just how much research this is going to take. So he can't get it done in 2004, it'll get done. Having the Line Developer interested in writing the book is good enough evidence for me that it's not going to be used as a "bait-n-switch" book, constantly pushed back to keep people interested.

[TheImperialKhan]

Originally posted by GradonSilverton
The response you've gotten in this THREAD is just not the one you were wanting....when you posted the question you came in with guns blazing, and frnakly everyone else reached for their weapons and started firing back, thats human nature. Now as for else where in this board, I dont see it. I've read many a post about problems with Hero (system, books, etc.) as well as many who prefer other systems and why (there is a decent thread about Mutants and Masterminds vs Hero).

Steve was a little straight foward in his reply for this post b/c I'm sure he believes (and wether you are him are correct in what you disagree about we/I dont know) that you put out mis-information...along with the guns blazing analogy again. When you replied with back handed attacks (like inferring Steve chainged the 2004 page just to make you look wrong), you then draw the wrath of everyone else who believe in what Steve puts together as a whole...attacking his character opens yourself up to attacks on your character.

And YES you do need a lecture in manners. Discussion Boards are meant to be places of debate, ideas, etc. When you go personal, debates turn ugly, and when its your fault they turn ugly, you need to rethink your course in the debate.

First off I didn't put out mis-information as my response clearly showed. Nor did I infer that Steve had changed the 2004 page to make me look wrong . I merely pointed out that it was no longer possible for me to offer concrete proof of my statements as I would have prefered. I do not believe in the slighest that this was intentional.

Second I did not "go personal" others did. I have responded to personal attacks made against me, and quite mildly I might add. If you want a debate then debate the issues that I have with Pulp Hero being pulled from the 2004 while several other projects were added.

Lastly I tried to turn down the heat at this thread several posts ago and explain that I was worried and why. I was ignored. Still I will try one more time.

Over the past year I have defended this company many times when people that I game with have attacked it saying the the new owners wont make a bit of difference and even if they manage to get a few products out on schedule that eventually they'll slide back into the old pattern of missed shipping dates and major product delays. I have insisted to them that that wont happen because DOJ is committed to HERO Games and it's players. But shipping dates have been missed and now we've just had the first major product delay. The fact that it's a product that I was really looking forward to just made it worse and I got very angry. So I cut loose hoping that it might do some good. Unfortunately I'd forgotten just how defensive you guys get around here.

Now if you want to consider me an asshole for that, you go right ahead.

[Chris Goodwin]

Wow. Get over yourself already. You're one person. You're not in charge at Hero Games. You're not making the decisions about what product to produce. Let it go, man. Vote with your dollars.

I'll bet people out there thought I was bad....

[GradonSilverton]

Archer... I'm not sure if I'd go that far...opinion is extremely important both good or bad.....I just think the chosen method of presenting his opinion was the error in this thread.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan
So I cut loose hoping that it might do some good. Unfortunately I'd forgotten just how defensive you guys get around here.
How exactly did you expect your cutting loose to do any good? Did you expect Darren and Steve to say: "My God! You are right TheImperialKhan and we are wrong. We bow to your role-playing game company mastery! Pulp Hero is back on the schedule!" I really cannot believe you actually thought that.

I understand the need to vent, but you could have vented in an private email to Darren and Steve. That would have helped you release your pent-up anxioty, and at the same time not made you look like an un-appreciative jerk. This "you suck because you did not give me what I wanted" attitude really does not fly. Even if you did not intend to sound that way, that is how you sound.

I want Pulp Hero just as badly as you do, but you know what, there are at least 15 other products on the 2004 list that I want too. I can play Pulp games with FREd and my old copy of Justice, Inc. Throw in Lands of Mystery and the Bestiary and I can run a heck of a lost worlds campaign. I do not need a new copy or genre book to play a game that I love so much. It is nice to have, but it is not essential.

[Ben Seeman]

This is the text from the old beyond2003.htm document...

= = = = =
2004: Our major release for 2004 will be a new Dark Champions. Hopefully we'll get that out early in the year, so that we can start releasing support products such as Hudson City: The Urban Abyss, Predators, The Evil That Men Do, The Man In The Street, Danger International, and the like.

If all goes according to plan, we'd like to release another genre book later in the year. That will probably be Pulp Hero/Justice Inc. (whatever we decide to call it), but might be Cyber Hero, Western Hero, or Horror Hero - or maybe something we haven't thought of yet.

Meanwhile, we'll continue to support the Champions, Star Hero, and Fantasy Hero lines with sourcebooks and supplements. With FH having been so recently released, we're likely to concentrate on it, with setting books (perhaps detailing the Valdorian Age, Turakian Age, Tuala Morn, and/or Fantasy Europe), an enemies/monsters book (Monsters, Minions, And Marauders), and lots of other great fantasy products.

Additionally, by this point we should have several more Ultimate books ready to go; see The Ultimate Series for more information.
= = = = =

Nowhere does it say when Pulp Hero will be released. It says we'd like to. I'd like to take a trip to Hawaii... if I fail to take a trip to Hawaii does that mean that I've failed to come through on some promise? No, and likewise because we've decided not to do Pulp Hero in 2004 doesn't mean we suddenly have a major product delay.

Now, if Fantasy Hero doesn't come out until December, then yes, we have a major product delay. :)

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan
It seems from the responses that I've gotten that this board is nothing but a cheering section and anyone who isn't cheering is immediately squashed.Y'know, this particular canard gets trotted out seemingly every time someone posts a position that turns out to be unpopular. Anyone disagreeing with the complainer (and agreeing with the "company line") is accused of being a mindless yes-man.

It simply ain't so. There's a difference between "cheerleading" and just agreeing with their strategy. If I agree with their strategy, that doesn't mean I have no brain of my own... it simply means that my brain happens to agree with theirs.

As for your "getting squashed," aren't those who disagree with you allowed to post their opinions publicly, too? If you're in the minority (as you clearly seem to be in this particular case) it may seem to come across as "squashing," but... well, that's the risk you run by posting opinions for public comment. Some will be popular; some will not. If the prospect of having people publicly criticize your opinions disturbs you, then don't post them for public dissection. :)

To be completely blunt, I don't think most people were objecting to the fact that you disagreed with DOJ's chosen 2004 lineup as much as they were the reason for your disagreement. You seem to be saying that DOJ is deliberately going out of its way to offend you personally, by publishing genre books it may think are more important/profitable/whatever before your personal favorite. To many, such a "conspiratorial" view of their publishing schedule is baseless.3.) I've waited almost 20 years for new JI/Pulp Hero material. Don't you think that that's pretty damned patient? I certainly do.The new edition of Dark Champions will be (among other things) filling the same niche as Danger International filled. Fans of modern action and espionage have also been waiting almost 20 years for an update of Danger International. Why is your waiting more important than theirs?

Let's look at this another way. Genre books are not interchangeable with other kinds of books in the publishing schedule, because they require more time in terms of researching and writing. (And planning of support books to follow them.) It appears that this first year was something of an aberration, and that future years will include only one major genre book each year. The two slated before Pulp Hero are Fantasy Hero and Dark Champions.

Therefore, if Pulp Hero were to be done before 2005, one of those two books would have to be pulled. Which one should it be? Do you seriously believe that Pulp is a more important genre to have represented in the line than Fantasy or Modern Adventure? (Objectively... not just based on your personal favorite.)

Truly, I don't mean to pick on you. Heck, I agree with you about the extreme coolness of Pulp Adventure. It's my favorite Hero genre after Supers. But logically, I understand why DOJ is doing what it's doing and when it's doing it.

That doesn't make me a cheerleader. :)

[Darren Watts]

Okay, I wasn't going to get involved in this, but there's a couple of things I think need clarifying. Khan, you are of course entitled to your opinion, and have every right to be disappointed that Pulp Hero won't be out til at least 2005. Feel free to post here that you think we have made an incorrect decision. However, please don't accuse us of dishonesty, or claim that we're "missing ship dates" or "delaying products." That's both unfairly loaded language and factually incorrect. Only one of our eleven (to date) products has varied by as much as two weeks from our schedule, and that was the Resource Kit, which proved too complicated for our original print bid and needed to be reworked.

As Ben has thoughtfully reprinted above, our 2004 posting was clearly not a "promise" to publish Pulp Hero. Further, as you mentioned earlier, Ultimate Armor isn't even on the '04 list, which is clearly marked in several places as unofficial and not the last word on the subject.

More to the point, reactions like yours are unfortunately precisely the reason many game companies don't provide this sort of information at all, preferring to keep their fans in the dark until plans are completely squared away and in some cases until the books are actually printed and ready to ship. At least that way "fans" can't claim they've been misled or lied to, right?

Steve and I don't believe in operating that way. We firmly believe that Hero fans deserve and should expect us to provide them with the most accurate information we have at the time, and for us to solicit their opinions to help us make our books better (which is not the same as "try to please everyone.") I think over the last fifteen months we have shown all of the honesty and openness that we promised when we took over.

The simple truth is this. We could hire another writer, perhaps Aaron or Mike, who might be fine choices but are extremely expensive (and yes, we paid the price for Aaron to write Champions. I don't expect Pulp Hero to sell as many copies as that book. Therefore, I don't think it's a smart move to pay that much again.) But honestly, I think Steve and I between us can create the ultimate pulp book. Only once a year can we afford to pop a couple of months free in Steve's schedule to write as big a book as this is going to be. In '03, that book will be Fantasy. In '04, Dark Champions. Therefore, Pulp (as much as we all want it) is not *possible* until 2005. Logistics are a pain sometimes.

I hope I've at least explained the reasons by which we came to a decision that disappointed you. Pulp Hero will come, most likely in the summer of '05. That's not a promise yet- things could still change when you're talking about 30-odd months from now. But it's the most likely outcome. Now let's all have a refreshing fruit drink and relax. :p dw

[TechnoViking]

Originally posted by Darren Watts
Now let's all have a refreshing fruit drink and relax. :p dw

Yes Dad :D .

MIke

[TheImperialKhan]

Darren, before I get to your points I'd like to thank you very much for your post. I appreciate that you took the time to get involved in this and you certainly managed to calm things down fast. Thank you.

Originally posted by Darren Watts
Okay, I wasn't going to get involved in this, but there's a couple of things I think need clarifying. Khan, you are of course entitled to your opinion, and have every right to be disappointed that Pulp Hero won't be out til at least 2005. Feel free to post here that you think we have made an incorrect decision. However, please don't accuse us of dishonesty, or claim that we're "missing ship dates" or "delaying products." That's both unfairly loaded language and factually incorrect. Only one of our eleven (to date) products has varied by as much as two weeks from our schedule, and that was the Resource Kit, which proved too complicated for our original print bid and needed to be reworked.

I'm aware that the deleys are really pretty minor for the most part, and are mostly from the printer's end of things. Which is of course out of HERO Games' control. Unfortunately I'm getting everything a month or more late. Intellectually I know it's the distributor that's at fault, emotionally however I tend to blame you guys for it. I'll try not to do that in the future.

Originally posted by Darren Watts
As Ben has thoughtfully reprinted above, our 2004 posting was clearly not a "promise" to publish Pulp Hero. Further, as you mentioned earlier, Ultimate Armor isn't even on the '04 list, which is clearly marked in several places as unofficial and not the last word on the subject.

Although I appreciate Ben's posting of the old schedule (Thanks, Ben) and you're right there were no promises made, other than the implied "We'll try". But with so much material coming out for next year it was heartbreaking to find the the two products I was most looking forward to didn't make the cut.

Originally posted by Darren Watts
More to the point, reactions like yours are unfortunately precisely the reason many game companies don't provide this sort of information at all, preferring to keep their fans in the dark until plans are completely squared away and in some cases until the books are actually printed and ready to ship. At least that way "fans" can't claim they've been misled or lied to, right?

Steve and I don't believe in operating that way. We firmly believe that Hero fans deserve and should expect us to provide them with the most accurate information we have at the time, and for us to solicit their opinions to help us make our books better (which is not the same as "try to please everyone.") I think over the last fifteen months we have shown all of the honesty and openness that we promised when we took over.

And I agree you certainly have. Particularly in how much you guys post when you could be doing other stuff. Whenever someone has a problem over here at least one of you guys will respond and try to fix things. I think that what made me so angry was that there were 18 books on the schedule, 18, and neither of the two I was waiting for was there. Another twelve months of waiting and hoping ; and the very real fear that at the end of those 12 months I would again be disappointed. Why? Because it's what I've come to expect from HERO Games, particularly over the past 10 years. I know that wasn't DOJ and that DOJ is working very hard to change that perception, and I think that you're doing it. But those expectations were built up over a long period of time, it's going to take a while to batter down that wall.

Still I do wish that you had a few less Champions products on the 2004 schedule, if only to save some for 2005 and beyond.

Originally posted by Darren Watts
The simple truth is this. We could hire another writer, perhaps Aaron or Mike, who might be fine choices but are extremely expensive (and yes, we paid the price for Aaron to write Champions. I don't expect Pulp Hero to sell as many copies as that book. Therefore, I don't think it's a smart move to pay that much again.) But honestly, I think Steve and I between us can create the ultimate pulp book. Only once a year can we afford to pop a couple of months free in Steve's schedule to write as big a book as this is going to be. In '03, that book will be Fantasy. In '04, Dark Champions. Therefore, Pulp (as much as we all want it) is not *possible* until 2005. Logistics are a pain sometimes.

Aww, come on. Ask Aaron. He might be willing to do it for less up-front money and may be a slice of the net profits later on. You know how much he loves the genre. It never hurts to ask. BTW I'm sure that you and Steve could do a fine job on Pulp Hero after all you did great with Champions Universe. But still there's just someting about Aaron Allston and the pulps that just seems right. But I'm biased, I'm one of the few people that has the whole JI package: Justice Inc, Trail of the Gold Spike and Lands of Mystery.

IOriginally posted by Darren Watts
hope I've at least explained the reasons by which we came to a decision that disappointed you. Pulp Hero will come, most likely in the summer of '05. That's not a promise yet- things could still change when you're talking about 30-odd months from now. But it's the most likely outcome. Now let's all have a refreshing fruit drink and relax. :p dw

Yes, you have explained things quite well. Thus while still disappointed, The Khan's anger, which is truely a fearsome thing (and you thought that fool the Destroyer was bad didn't you), has abated and scattered to the four winds of the desert. The Imperial Khan shall leave now to mull over the possiblity of switching to decaf. ;)

[Mavnn]

Originally posted by TheImperialKhan
The Imperial Khan shall leave now to mull over the possiblity of switching to decaf. ;)

*lol*

And in these small ways was the history of the world changed...

Michael

[nHammer]

I was kinda hoping to see Pulp Hero in 2004....oh well, I'll just usea modified Dark Champions in the stead.

[DoctorItron]

Oops, I posted a long message to TheImperialKhan, then I saw that Darren and Khan had already made nice. (DoctorItron, you idiot, read all the posts in a board before replying to any!)

TheImperialKhan, I think what got people up in arms was the fact that you were "pissed", as if Hero Games broke a personal promise to you. You were disappointed that Pulp Hero isn't on the 2004 schedule, and lashed out at Hero Games. People reacted to your anger and hostility.

[TheImperialKhan]

At the time that I wrote the post I kinda felt like it had. I don't think I would have been nearly as upset if one of them had been on the 2004 schedule. If say Ultimate Armor made the list but Pulp Hero hadn't I would have consoled myself with the fact that at least I got Ultimate Armor. But when neither was on the schedule...

It was kind of like a man taking out his red handkerchief to mop his brow and not realizing that he's fluttering the damned thing at a bull. Certainly DOJ didn't intend to make me angry any more than the man intended to make the bull charge at him. DOJ actually works quite hard to try to keep their customers happy, a fine business practice that some other companies should try. Unfortunately they don't always succeed. But I have to hand it to them, they never stop trying.

And for that they shall ever have the Khan's eternal respect.

[tenebre]

i would love to see the ultimate armor.

but 18 books is awesome.

if DOJ actaully puts out all 18 in 2004 they deserve huge kudos as well as the 18 books sales they will have to me.

that is a monumental task of near impossible proportions