Why do the Champions waste so much time being "good citizens?"

[zarglif69]

why don't they just do their job and beat up bad guys?

[BobGreenwade]

Smart-alecky answer #1: Why not?

Smart-alecky answer #2: Because it's the Right Thing To Do.

Real Answer: Because it's the Right Thing To Do.

It's why Jimmy Carter "wastes time" building homes with Habitat For Humanity. It's why Jerry Lewis "wastes time" raising money for muscular dystrophy.

It's why I like to donate my time to community theater, entertaining the citizens of Corvallis or guiding children and teens through the theatrical process even though my financial return for it consists mostly of photos, momentos, and a pizza on closing night.

Real good guys aren't good 9-to-5, they're good guys 24-7.

[Hermit]

I asked each of the Champions, this is what they said.

Defender- "Because our Job doesn't excuse us from being good citizens. Far from it, because we fight on the side of law, we have to hold ourselves to high standards. We're a part of this world, and that goes a lot further than busting heads. It was my concern for my fellow citizens that motivated me to become Defender, that and the courage the average citizen has shown in the time of crisis. It's inspiring."

Ironclad- "If there is one thing my time as a gladiator on Malva has taught me, it is that those who live only for battle are empty hungry things. As I have no 'secret identity' I am, in a sense, always on duty, but I see no shame in the sculpting of metals that I perform. Humanity should see more in other peoples of the universe than the violence they can do. Mostly, however, I do it for myself. I love to fight for a good cause, but there is room in my heart for that, and beauty and friendship as well."

Nighthawk- "Good question, I often wonder that myself. We'd get a lot more done around here if we'd worry less about public image and go with what works. On the other hand, who the hell are you to be judging? And why am I wasting time even responding to this when I could be on the streets?"

Sapphire- "Hello, I was a superstar before I was a superhero, and I'm not giving that up. Some people will never be satisfied, you'll never do enough to please them. It'll drive you loco trying soooo don't bother; just do your best. Besides, my fans could get violent if I shut down my music carreer. You thought VIPER was bad."

Witchcraft- "Yes, we could do more. However, there's a balance, or at least a need for some balance, in things. Some of us have made mistakes, or have some evil in our past. Rectifying that isn't just about beating evil, it's about being good yourself."

Kinetik- "Hellooo, A brother in tights here, not as rare as it was, but that doesn't mean I can just slack off. African Americans, especially the kids, need a role model, positive rolemodels. Now,I'm not going to throw myself in their face about it, but I AM going to do more than get my rocks off trashing thugs at 50 plus m.p.h. Besides, I do have to eat and I don't charge for heroing so I need a job in the big S.I.D. Who's going to pay my rent? You?"

[Enforcer84]

I didn't know Hermit was on such good terms with the Champions... could you get me Witchcraft's autograph?:)

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Enforcer84
I didn't know Hermit was on such good terms with the Champions... could you get me Witchcraft's autograph?:)

Sure, just send $25 dollars to an address I'll be PMing you soon and make the check out to...

What's that, Darren? Seeking to profit from DoJ's copyrights is a crime you say? *cough* uhm, it was all going to charity I swear...

(drat, never do these deals in an open forum)

[bubba smith]

another reason they are good citizens if they WEREN'T they'd spend more time behind bars than the crooks they stop

[freakboy6117]

because Mechanon only attacks Millenium city every other Tuesday. They've got to do something other than sitting around watching the view in your undies and mask like Nighthawk.

[Greywind]

Because they can...

Seriously, would you rather be the idol of millions or the guy that the idol of millions is looking for?

[Egyptoid]

It has to do with Psych Disads and the Hero-System time scale.

Combats in Champions are brutally quick by television standards.

What are ya gonna do with the other 5.75 hours of the miniseries ?

[Cygnia]

Good citizens don't necro threads. :p

[bubba smith]

Because they can...

Seriously, would you rather be the idol of millions or the guy that the idol of millions is looking for?
i'd prefer the former myself

[lemming]

Yum, Necro Wafers.

[CTaylor]

Also: the better public face a group of heroes has, the better off they are when the public turns against them or some group tries to smear them in the press or with advertisements. Sure, Viper can run anti-Champions ads, but the people will say "yeah, but they worked to rebuild my home after that meteor shower" and stuff like that.

And, if you're a hero your driving purpose is to help people and do good, which includes helping people when they are in need. The same thing that motivates you to be a hero rather than a thug that happens only to beat up on bad guys is what makes you want to do community service, help out those in need, and be a positive influence on your community.

[SuperJerry]

Also: the better public face a group of heroes has, the better off they are when the public turns against them or some group tries to smear them in the press or with advertisements. Sure, Viper can run anti-Champions ads, but the people will say "yeah, but they worked to rebuild my home after that meteor shower" and stuff like that.

And, if you're a hero your driving purpose is to help people and do good, which includes helping people when they are in need. The same thing that motivates you to be a hero rather than a thug that happens only to beat up on bad guys is what makes you want to do community service, help out those in need, and be a positive influence on your community.

Amen brudda!

[Narratio]

As CTaylor said. What else are you going to do?

Once you've helped people by stopping whatever it was the GM threw down on this night, how can you not go out and help people when the dangers, while maybe not so nasty, are still as harmful to the innocents.

It's why Superman stops to rescue cats from trees. That's as emotionaly harmful to the young child crying at the trees base, as standing near Doomsday would be physically dangerous.

[bubba smith]

why don't they just do their job and beat up bad guys?
because the they'd be DARK CHAMPIONS and mr. long wants to keep them as separate as possible

[nexus]

Well even Dark Champions characters (in the sense of street level supers) can do good deeds and be heroes outside of clobbering/shooting the bad guys. The "Dark" in dark Champions isn't necessarily a moral judgment or an indicator of the only mood possible Batman: The Animated Series is much as a street level game as The Punisher just like the Superfriends is as much as an example of high end Champions as The Authority.

[Narratio]

There's a difference between say the 60's Superman who'd take time out to rescue kittens from trees and the 70's / 80's Superman who had 'causes' like digging water wells, replanting forests etc. But it's a difference of degree, not intent.

Nonbody questions that the firefighters and rescue crews who were still climbing the twin towers and working to get people out even as they collapsed, count as heroes.

So to me, a decent definition of a "hero" is that a "hero" will help others when he/she does not need to. When there is no personal gain other than the satisfaction of having done thier best or having done so in defiance of all logic or even the call of self preservation.

Thus they can't just sit around waiting for the bad guys to do something nasty. They have to help prevent, not just clean up afterwards.

[Utech]

You might ask another question: Why don't the Champions do more good?

Why do they spend so much of their time dealing with crime when they really ought to combating larger issues?
global education
global environmental issues
global poverty
inequality
war
homelessness
hopelessness
mental illness
hunger
extremism
discrimination

Of course you then run into problems of cultural imperialism, intolerance, and moral ambiguity.
Should the Champions work for regime change in democratically elected governments that support terrorism?
What happens when one of them is Pro Life and another is Pro Choice?
Should they work to eliminate weapons of mass destruction -- all of them -- from the world?
What should they do about the people who have always hunted whales and can't understand why others want them to stop?
When the poor in a poor country burn down a foreign-owned superstore because it is destroying their ability to run their traditional business, who should the Champions champion?

I'm not saying I'd like to run or play in campaigns that focus on these issues. Just saying that I'm not sure the Champions really do spend a lot of time being "good citizens" when you take the long view.

[Dr Archeville]

By that view, neither do most comic book superheroes....

[nexus]

Mainly because the Adventures of Political Activist Man and the Socially Conscious Crew makes for dull four color funny books.

[assault]

There's a difference between say the 60's Superman who'd take time out to rescue kittens from trees and the 70's / 80's Superman who had 'causes' like digging water wells, replanting forests etc. But it's a difference of degree, not intent.

That's right. 60's Superman would do all the stuff the 70's/80's version would do and rescue kittens as well.

The answer to the main question is: how much time do the Champions actually spend punching people? How often do aliens actually invade? How often do loonies actually try to take over the world?

Basically, they have a lot of downtime. They choose not to waste it, but to use it profitably by being "good citizens".

Except Nighthawk who spends his time trashing underworld bars, and sitting around on stakeouts eating donuts. ;)

[Enforcer84]

Because it's Tuesday and there's nothing on TV

[Korvar]

Should they work to eliminate weapons of mass destruction -- all of them -- from the world?

No. Because that way lies Superman IV: The Quest for Peace. And nobody wants that.

[Markdoc]

You might ask another question: Why don't the Champions do more good?

Why do they spend so much of their time dealing with crime when they really ought to combating larger issues?
global education
global environmental issues
global poverty
inequality
war
homelessness
hopelessness
mental illness
hunger
extremism
discrimination

Of course you then run into problems of cultural imperialism, intolerance, and moral ambiguity.
Should the Champions work for regime change in democratically elected governments that support terrorism?
What happens when one of them is Pro Life and another is Pro Choice?
Should they work to eliminate weapons of mass destruction -- all of them -- from the world?
What should they do about the people who have always hunted whales and can't understand why others want them to stop?
When the poor in a poor country burn down a foreign-owned superstore because it is destroying their ability to run their traditional business, who should the Champions champion?


Mainly because the Adventures of Political Activist Man and the Socially Conscious Crew makes for dull four color funny books.

Well, that was the whole point behind The Authority: what would it be like if the "Heroes" started getting involved in issues like that. It was actually pretty good, too, for the first two trades, before the original authors quit and the series went to ****.

cheers, Mark

[Kal'El Wayne]

Why do the Champions waste so much time being
...Champions?

Is what you're asking, from my point of view. If they didn't do that stuff then they're just WWE stars with powers and more clothes.

[teh bunneh]

Why do they spend so much of their time dealing with crime when they really ought to combating larger issues?

In a comic book universe, things like alien invasions, giant monster attacks, and armored despots trying to conquer the world are the larger issues -- and they're the issues that superheroes are uniquely qualified to handle.

Sure, they can and should help rescue kittens from trees and put out forest fires when they've got some downtime. But their real job is to protect humanity from the likes of Dr. Destroyer, Mechanon, and Eurostar. :)

[mirage]

It has to do with Psych Disads and the Hero-System time scale.

Combats in Champions are brutally quick by television standards.

What are ya gonna do with the other 5.75 hours of the miniseries ?

What he said. :D

[Egyptoid]

Because it's Tuesday and there's nothing on TV

Being a good citizen includes watching HOUSE, yes?

[Clonus]

[QUOTE]You might ask another question: Why don't the Champions do more good?

Why do they spend so much of their time dealing with crime when they really ought to combating larger issues?

One obvious reason is because they possess no greater than normal ability to combat these allegedly larger issues. Or at least, no greater than any other celebrity you might care to mention. Another is that not only are they better equipped to fight crime (and alien invasions and other things that can actually be fought), but crime is a much larger issue in a comic book reality than it is in ours. In comic-book land 9/11 would have been tuesday, a bad guy scheme chiefly notably for it's extraordinarily low-tech unpowered nature. The world would not have been all that shocked by it. Bigger things would have happened in recent memory and far bigger things have threatened to happen.

[assault]

In comic-book land 9/11 would have been tuesday, a bad guy scheme chiefly notably for it's extraordinarily low-tech unpowered nature. The world would not have been all that shocked by it. Bigger things would have happened in recent memory and far bigger things have threatened to happen.

The Battle of Detroit aside, the villains in most superhero universes are pretty universally unsuccessful.

In a typical universe, thwarting 9/11 would have been Tuesday, and its success would still have been shocking.

[Clonus]

[QUOTE]The Battle of Detroit aside, the villains in most superhero universes are pretty universally unsuccessful.

Their batting average is low, but their times at bat are plentiful and sometimes even a thwarted scheme has as much collateral damage as 9/11's success did.

[pinecone]

why don't they just do their job and beat up bad guys?

So they don't look like Hancock?

[Hugh Neilson]

why don't they just do their job and beat up bad guys?

Because they aren't Iron Age supers, they're alloyed Silver and Bronze.

[Vulcan]

Because they aren't Iron Age supers, they're alloyed Silver and Bronze.

Absoultely right. Iron Age supers kill/capture the bad guys and it ends there. Silver and Bronze Age supers usually stand for something more.

Somebody hit Hugh with the Rep stick, it seems I've hit him too recently...

[Cygnia]

Absoultely right. Iron Age supers kill/capture the bad guys and it ends there. Silver and Bronze Age supers usually stand for something more.

Somebody hit Hugh with the Rep stick, it seems I've hit him too recently...

On it...:thumbup:

[Lord Liaden]

Well, in a world with supervillains, superheroes have to devote a significant amount of time and energy to fighting them, because in many causes they're the only people capable of doing so.

OTOH I remember an issue of the Roger Stern/Tom Lyle Starman series in which Starman helped combat a California wildfire. He didn't have quite enough power to just blow on it to snuff it out like Silver Age Superman; but he did spend days on the front line, digging firebreaks, flying huge water-drop canisters over the blaze, and evacuating people trapped by the flames. The narration of the story described how satisfying he found it to use his power for something more constructive than beating on bad guys.

[bubba smith]

Got him vulcan

[The Weapon]

So they don't look like Hancock?

Not looking like Hancock can be accomplished by simply staying sober for five minutes (admittedly Iron Man might find this difficult, but everyone other super is fine) and not destroying lots of property every 10 (harder for some than others). What they want to look like is paragons, examples. It's not about defeating the bad guys, it's about showing that virtue makes the world a better place.

[Tigereye]

My tuppence worth from the perspective of my character Deuce, probably the most Iron-Agey of all the heroes in the campaign I'm in...

Although defeating evil is certainly most of the equation of being a superhero (and admittedly, I have no intrinsic superpowers I'm aware of), it is not the entire equation. At first, I was also cynical of such things as charity events, but then I thought back to organizations like the White Cross in the British Secret Service that brought comfort to widows and orphans within MI6. With the high profile for many superheroes, it stands to reason that the power and influence (and often money) they wield would also benefit many. I hesitate to use the modern term "role model" - it is a cliche, and I would reject such a label to such a flawed person as myself - but many average people admire and want to emulate the ethical and moral stances of superheroes. If they give money or time for a worthy cause because a hero supports it, this is even better. The public face is also an important one, and cannot be over-rated. I do not try to seek the public eye myself, but I will not stand in the way of my fellow team members from doing so, so long as they are not prima donnas about it.

Charity for the right causes creates moral distance between heroes and villains. Most villains will not create charitable organizations, or do it for the most cynical reasons. Not expecting any recompense is the way to do it. Many of my team members therefore give to charity anonymously or do so out of the public eye, but many do not, and let their profile "steer" the public. Fortunately, most of the causes our team support are difficult to clearly oppose without coming off as a monster in doing so (such as human rights, hunger, environmental and wildlife protection).

So too, perhaps a bit callously myself (I have been accused of having a ends justify the means mentality- why I'm not a role model), I've found that charitable events expose some villains at vulnerable moments. When you expect a villain to attack, you can launch a counter-ambush, and can turn the tables on them. Cheat them one better, I always say. :sneaky:

[pinecone]

Not looking like Hancock can be accomplished by simply staying sober for five minutes (admittedly Iron Man might find this difficult, but everyone other super is fine) and not destroying lots of property every 10 (harder for some than others). What they want to look like is paragons, examples. It's not about defeating the bad guys, it's about showing that virtue makes the world a better place.

Human nature being what it is...just staying sober, and being responsable will Not keep people from resenting you...

[GestaltBennie]

:rolleyes:

[nexus]

Absolutely right. Iron Age supers kill/capture the bad guys and it ends there.

That's a pretty sweeping generalization that isn't really correct. Even The Authority did more than "beat up bad the guys". Actually, it can be said that some "Iron Age" supers are more proactive in their actions to effect what they consider positive change in the world than many of their earlier counterparts who's stories focused on punching bad guys of the week much on the time. To extent it was a (often exaggerated but not entirely unmerited) criticism leveled at them particularly the Silver and early Bronze Age. "Iron Age" has really become short hand for "modern comics I don't like" around here.

[assault]

Actually, it can be said that some "Iron Age" supers are more proactive in their actions to effect what they consider positive change in the world than many of their earlier counterparts who's stories focused on punching bad guys of the week much on the time. To extent it was a (often exaggerated but not entirely unmerited) criticism leveled at them particularly the Silver and early Bronze Age. "Iron Age" has really become short hand for "modern comics I don't like" around here.

There are a couple of aspects to this.

First of all, there was a difference between DC and Marvel back in the Silver and at least early Bronze ages. I'm not that much of a scholar on the Marvel side, but my impression is that their stuff tended more to the Senses-Shattering Slugfest than much of the contemporary DC material. What I am going to write about is pretty much all DC stuff.

DC characters spent a lot of time doing non-combat "good deeds". This was especially true of Superman, and, say, less true for Batman (who even then was more focussed on "fighting crime"), and much less true by the time you get to folks like, say, Hawkman.

In some cases, "good deeds" was pretty much all the character did. Supergirl was an example of this early in her career. It took a while before she started spending much time kicking booty.

In other cases, crime fighting tended to be something of a side-effect of attempts at "good deeds". The early Teen Titans, for example, were dedicated to helping teens in trouble. "It just so happened" that that would bring them into conflict with Bad Guys.

Later on, of course, "relevance" became the new fad. Ultimately, in fact, this led to what is considered to be the beginning of the Bronze Age, but, by definition, the material prior to this was Silver Age.

Once again, the Teen Titans were standard bearers in this development. Where they had earlier dealt with the "Generation Gap", attempted to encourage kids to stay in school, and joined the Peace Corps, they found themselves in increasingly anvilicious stories about peace, racism, sexism and so on.

And they got cancelled.

But, of course, that freed up Speedy to help start the Bronze Age.

So superheroes were engaging with "real world" "issues" way back when. They were trying to make the world a better place through non-combat activities way back before then, too. They were, in fact, trying to change the world for the better.

And, of course, some of them were trying to do that by fighting crime, too - don't forget that. Busting corruption networks in Gotham City would actually materially change that city for the better. It's just a shame about all those costumed lunatics...

Changing the world is what superheroes do. It may not be spectacular, but they've been doing it all along.

The Iron Age version is something else. It tends to be more spectacular. Sometimes it's bloodier.

Funnily enough, it's actually more "fantastic" than the late Silver/early Bronze stuff. The latter tended to refrain from "solving" problems like racism, world hunger or the like, while Iron Age stuff tends is less reticent, at least about the kinds of issues that can be solved with Super-technology or a quick bit of violence.

Of course, in the Real World(tm), the pace of change tends to reflect that in the Silver/Bronze Age material, so arguably it's more realistic. ;)

[nexus]

So superheroes were engaging with "real world" "issues" way back when. They were trying to make the world a better place through non-combat activities way back before then, too. They were, in fact, trying to change the world for the better.


Yes, but of course, I didn't say they weren't. :rolleyes: I said "some" Iron Age superheroes were more proactive in their efforts to change the world. And some are particularly when it comes to making major changes in the status quo of their worlds... when they do things like take over the United States. I was arguing against the broad brush that those bad old "Iron Age" superheroes never do anything but kick a**, go home and ruin the noble art of comics like they always do. There is a distinct disdain for whats called "Iron Age" on this board and it's usually aimed at the worst examples as if they were universal. There is allot drek in modern era comics but frankly, there was allot of drek in past eras too. And I actually have read a comic or two before so I really don't appreciate being lectured like I just picked up my first one last week and it was the silver foil edition of Bludsturm and Killgore

[DusterBoy]

There's a scene in "New Avengers" where the team lands in a run-down neighbourhood, scaring two kids playing truant. Cap asks them "Shouldn't you be in school" and off they run.

Long story short: the Avengers are just standing around, being visible and naturally a news crew turns up. Luke Cage says that he that he made it condition of his enlistment that when they weren't fighting the latest threat, instead of just waiting around "and playing X-Box" the Avengers would pull on their cozzies and turn up somewhere and throw a scare into the local crims. His intent was also to embarass people who let a crack house operate right next to a school. He actually threatens to tear the crack house down with his bare hands if nothing is done.

It's a little more complicated than that, but that's the basic idea.

I would think that time spent being a good citizen is never time wasted.

Besides, when was not being able to do it all an excuse for not doing anything?

[assault]

And I actually have read a comic or two before so I really don't appreciate being lectured like I just picked up my first one last week and it was the silver foil edition of Bludsturm and Killgore

That's nice.

Although I used your comment as a starting point, I wasn't particularly targeting what I wrote to you.

[teh bunneh]

There's a scene in "New Avengers" where the team lands in a run-down neighbourhood, scaring two kids playing truant. Cap asks them "Shouldn't you be in school" and off they run.

I hated that book. But that's just 'cause Bendis can't write dialog to save his life. His Cap sounds like his Luke Cage sounds like his Wasp sounds like his Spidey sounds like his two truant kids. ;)

</threadjack>

[nexus]

To use one of the better known (and maybe infamous) examples of the difference between the "Iron Age" and other eras, take The Authority. They aren't really amoral or gleefully immoral, they just take a utilitarian attitude and respond to deadly force with deadly force the way a soldier or policeman would do. Jack Hawksmoor, for instance, says things like "During battle, I deliberately collapsed that building. Ten innocent people trapped inside it died. If I had not collapsed it, two hundred people would have died. Those are the grim mathematics of my job, and sometimes I have to do them in a split-second." They also take more deliberate actions such following an alien army from a parallel earth built on conquest, slavery, and rape back to their homeworld and destroying their home city.

The difference between the moods in most IA settings and, for example, the DC universe is that Wildstorm superheroes aren't protected from certain consequences by authorial fiat. The Justice League, the Avengers, etc will find a way to beat the bad guys without killing because the writers say so.

It would be impossible to never even accidentally kill even a thug. People fall down and hit their heads, have heart attacks, and stumble over rails, stray shots ricochet or blow through buildings in the case of extremely powerful supers. There would be bystanders injured and killed. This is depicted more in "Iron Age" settings like Wildstorm and The Ultimates. This isn't to say there is something wrong with writer's fiat or genre tropes. It's what drives fiction and I can enjoy both types of stories.

And there is the flipside and where it started to go downhill (and fast) in The Authority was when they started becoming gleeful, even eager killers that took joy in it. It wasn't a grim necessity or the wages of combat anymore. That and they declared themselves judge, jury and executioner, using their powers with lethal intent against targets that posed no threat to them. Yes, most of them were scum that would have gotten death sentences several times over if they were fairly tried but they never got that chance which is were things went very wrong in The Authority. It could be considered the slippery slope but, honestly, I think it was just looking for shock value and cheap thrills. Shame too, since there was allot of potential in that series But it became essentially superpowered gore/revenge porn with some political trappings.

[nexus]

Although I used your comment as a starting point, I wasn't particularly targeting what I wrote to you.

Yeah, right. If you're supposedly not responding to me or addressing what I said don't quote me when you give your lectures.

[Hyper-Man]

why don't they just do their job and beat up bad guys?

This begs the question:
What would be the job description and job qualifications for being a member of the Champions or any other major superhero team?

[Cygnia]

60 words per nanosecond? :D

[Derek Hiemforth]

Yeah, right. If you're supposedly not responding to me or addressing what I said don't quote me when you give your lectures.Any public discussion should be considered just that, IMO... a public discussion. Quoting another post merely indicates that the "speaker" is saying something that relates to the text of that post in some way. Unless a poster is addressed by name, or a discussion is taken offline to PM, I think it's safest to assume that anything posted in a thread -- whether in reply to another post or not -- is intended for the general readership of the thread, and not aimed at any particular poster.

[nexus]

Any public discussion should be considered just that, IMO... a public discussion. Quoting another post merely indicates that the "speaker" is saying something that relates to the text of that post in some way. Unless a poster is addressed by name, or a discussion is taken offline to PM, I think it's safest to assume that anything posted in a thread -- whether in reply to another post or not -- is intended for the general readership of the thread, and not aimed at any particular poster.

I don't see it that way and the content of the post in question certainly read as directed to me. Even a public discussion you can speak address yourself to a specific person and if you quote someone, to my mind, you're addressing them unless you explicitly say otherwise.

But this situation is partially my fault. I know I don't get along with the board member in question and had him on IL but recently took him off. That was a mistake on my part so I'll say nothing more about it. I apologize for derailing that thread with it in the first place.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Even a public discussion you can speak address yourself to a specific person and if you quote someone, to my mind, you're addressing them unless you explicitly say otherwise.Okay, but be aware that many (most?) people do not assume that quoting an earlier post means they're replying personally to that poster. So it's probably a good idea to try not to take it for granted that they are. :)

[Narratio]

Back on thread...

Unless you insist on having a secret identity and try to conceal your abilities I'd asume there would always be somebody looking for your help doing something or other.

In which case, why not help out? I think that was the whole idea behind the 'patrolling the streets' idea. Deliberately going out, not only to stop crimes in progress but being visible and so preventing them. And then, seeing somebody in need, just helping out. Kittens in trees, little old ladies crossing roads, guy with a stalled car. Being helpful inspires, in a low level way, others to be helpful.

Ah me, the Silver Age...

[Dr Archeville]

The difference between the moods in most IA settings and, for example, the DC universe is that Wildstorm superheroes aren't protected from certain consequences by authorial fiat. The Justice League, the Avengers, etc will find a way to beat the bad guys without killing because the writers say so.

It would be impossible to never even accidentally kill even a thug. People fall down and hit their heads, have heart attacks, and stumble over rails, stray shots ricochet or blow through buildings in the case of extremely powerful supers. There would be bystanders injured and killed. This is depicted more in "Iron Age" settings like Wildstorm and The Ultimates. This isn't to say there is something wrong with writer's fiat or genre tropes. It's what drives fiction and I can enjoy both types of stories.

And there is the flipside and where it started to go downhill (and fast) in The Authority was when they started becoming gleeful, even eager killers that took joy in it. It wasn't a grim necessity or the wages of combat anymore. That and they declared themselves judge, jury and executioner, using their powers with lethal intent against targets that posed no threat to them. Yes, most of them were scum that would have gotten death sentences several times over if they were fairly tried but they never got that chance which is were things went very wrong in The Authority. It could be considered the slippery slope but, honestly, I think it was just looking for shock value and cheap thrills. Shame too, since there was allot of potential in that series But it became essentially superpowered gore/revenge porn with some political trappings.
This is pretty much the reason I hated Marvel's Civil War and the whole SHRA thing: the complete 180-ing of fiats and tropes.

Or, as a friend put it: "A bad guy blew up & killed a few hundred people in a town in Connecticut. In a world where numerous cities -- including Middletown, AZ (5,000 killed by the Leader) and Washington, DC (millions killed by Kang) -- have been destroyed & their populace killed by super humans, this was evidently a catalytic event. Definitely not the actions of a government afraid of powerful beings beyond their control. And, even though the Pro-Reg side acquired lots of new powers to do things they've always wanted to do, it's not a power grab."

[nexus]

This is pretty much the reason I hated Marvel's Civil War and the whole SHRA thing: the complete 180-ing of fiats and tropes.

Or, as a friend put it: "A bad guy blew up & killed a few hundred people in a town in Connecticut. In a world where numerous cities -- including Middletown, AZ (5,000 killed by the Leader) and Washington, DC (millions killed by Kang) -- have been destroyed & their populace killed by super humans, this was evidently a catalytic event. Definitely not the actions of a government afraid of powerful beings beyond their control. And, even though the Pro-Reg side acquired lots of new powers to do things they've always wanted to do, it's not a power grab."

I had a big problem with this part of it too (among allot of other things. It didn't make sense without more explanation. I'd be willing to accept that there was, for example, Skrull manipulation going on behind the scenes, but without something acting as more of push it just hamhanded considering the history of the Marvel universe. BFE, Connecticut just wasn't that big a deal relative to some of the other disasters that have went by without setting off the same reaction.

[assault]

But this situation is partially my fault. I know I don't get along with the board member in question and had him on IL but recently took him off.

Ah. Sorry, I didn't realise this. I'll refrain from responding to nexus' posts from now on, since it seems to annoy him.

[Kal'El Wayne]

DC characters spent a lot of time doing non-combat "good deeds". This was especially true of Superman, and, say, less true for Batman
Actually, Batman, as Bruce Wayne and head of WayneCorp/WayneTech, was massively influential in not only donating massive, regular amounts to charity, just like his Dad did before, during and after the depression, but also in getting every other rich, legitimate businessman to donate. That it forced mob bosses to deplete their funds to keep up appearances was a mildly useful side effect.

Come to think of it, in a JLA fight with a team of supervillains, Batman assured a victory by bribing the most powerful supervillain. The bribe was a blank check signed by one of Batman's 'civilian agents' (Bruce Wayne), made out to the orphanage where the supervillain grew up. Ironic, since Bruce being orphaned was his superhero catalyst.

[The Weapon]

60 words per nanosecond? :D

Must be able to keep accurate minutes of what was said and thought at the meeting. :eek:

[The Weapon]

[quote=Utech;1743068]

One obvious reason is because they possess no greater than normal ability to combat these allegedly larger issues. Or at least, no greater than any other celebrity you might care to mention. Another is that not only are they better equipped to fight crime (and alien invasions and other things that can actually be fought), but crime is a much larger issue in a comic book reality than it is in ours. In comic-book land 9/11 would have been tuesday, a bad guy scheme chiefly notably for it's extraordinarily low-tech unpowered nature. The world would not have been all that shocked by it. Bigger things would have happened in recent memory and far bigger things have threatened to happen.

"Mr. President, we'd like to talk to you about funds provided to your third world nation for sanitation that somehow manage to end up at your brother-in-law's construction company despite it not apparently doing any work. Stop it or we will beat the hell out of you, destroy every asset your brother in law or you own (except for the plane, which will be given to the Royal Flying Doctors Service) and then take out your government's arsenals so that you can be thrown out of the country. Message ends."

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

You might ask another question: Why don't the Champions do more good?

Why do they spend so much of their time dealing with crime when they really ought to combating larger issues?
global education
global environmental issues
global poverty
inequality
war
homelessness
hopelessness
mental illness
hunger
extremism
discrimination


Which is where the supergeniuses come in. Marvel actually has (or had) people like Tony Stark and Reed Richards developing technologies to help huge swathes of people out -- plans to increase the fertility of drought-stricken lands like Somalia, etc. etc. Part of the problem, however, is that social ills cannot be instantly addressed unless there is a break point. Magically feeding everyone leads to even more violence, as groups fight over who has control over the magic gizmo that feeds everyone. However, if everyone is starving, making certain everyone is fed equally leads to changes at the core sociological level.

Selecting the 'break points' is the trick of conquering the world. That and having both the technology and the money invested...

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

[quote=Clonus;1743500]

"Mr. President, we'd like to talk to you about funds provided to your third world nation for sanitation that somehow manage to end up at your brother-in-law's construction company despite it not apparently doing any work. Stop it or we will beat the hell out of you, destroy every asset your brother in law or you own (except for the plane, which will be given to the Royal Flying Doctors Service) and then take out your government's arsenals so that you can be thrown out of the country. Message ends."

"Captain Stupendous, I've received a threat against my person from The Zoidbergs. You and your team go kick their tuckuses. Tuckusi. Whatever."

"SIR YES SIR!!" *flies off*

Always a dangerous step when you start threatening nation superpowers -- especially ones that may have supers of their own. Far better to develop your abilities so that YOU can be the ones getting the grants and jobs and such, then take them over -- and get the job done yourself. (Tends to be secondary to the usual 'saving the universe' thing, I admit...)

[Vulcan]

Actually, Batman, as Bruce Wayne and head of WayneCorp/WayneTech, was massively influential in not only donating massive, regular amounts to charity, just like his Dad did before, during and after the depression, but also in getting every other rich, legitimate businessman to donate. That it forced mob bosses to deplete their funds to keep up appearances was a mildly useful side effect.

Come to think of it, in a JLA fight with a team of supervillains, Batman assured a victory by bribing the most powerful supervillain. The bribe was a blank check signed by one of Batman's 'civilian agents' (Bruce Wayne), made out to the orphanage where the supervillain grew up. Ironic, since Bruce being orphaned was his superhero catalyst.

I've never thought of Bribery as a combat skill before...:nonp:

That's good. I'll have to try and use that in game sometime. I can't wait to see the look on my GM's face...:sneaky:

[CTaylor]

Part of the reason heroes don't take on jobs like "homelessness" is that it isn't something you can fix, no matter how powerful you are. Some people are in that condition because they are too loony, drunken, or worthless to actually make it without constant supervision. Do you throw them into a prison in all but name? The supreme court of the US ruled that unconstitutional in the 1980s. Do you "fix" them with mind control etc? Yeah, that's real heroic - ask the Squadron Supreme how well that works out.

Some people are homless because of lousy luck, they just got fired and had a series of catastrophes affect them. Some are like that because they made a lot of stupid decisions and had no one to fall back on or didn't know how to get out of it. How do you fix that? Throw them stacks of cash? Build homes and pay for them while people sit in the houses and thank you for their free stuff? What do you do with the next 10,000 people who show up at your door because they've suddenly become homeless when they see you're giving away houses and food?

Some of these issues are insoluable by human might and ingenuity, best to stick to things you can fix like crime, disasters, soup lines, etc.

[pinecone]

Part of the reason heroes don't take on jobs like "homelessness" is that it isn't something you can fix, no matter how powerful you are. Some people are in that condition because they are too loony, drunken, or worthless to actually make it without constant supervision. Do you throw them into a prison in all but name? The supreme court of the US ruled that unconstitutional in the 1980s. Do you "fix" them with mind control etc? Yeah, that's real heroic - ask the Squadron Supreme how well that works out.

Some people are homless because of lousy luck, they just got fired and had a series of catastrophes affect them. Some are like that because they made a lot of stupid decisions and had no one to fall back on or didn't know how to get out of it. How do you fix that? Throw them stacks of cash? Build homes and pay for them while people sit in the houses and thank you for their free stuff? What do you do with the next 10,000 people who show up at your door because they've suddenly become homeless when they see you're giving away houses and food?
Some of these issues are insoluable by human might and ingenuity, best to stick to things you can fix like crime, disasters, soup lines, etc.


I have to agree...even JC said that poverty was beyond his power, what super power is in that class? The facts are that social problems require social solutions, power can only do so much....

[Clonus]

"Mr. President, we'd like to talk to you about funds provided to your third world nation for sanitation that somehow manage to end up at your brother-in-law's construction company despite it not apparently doing any work. Stop it or we will beat the hell out of you, destroy every asset your brother in law or you own (except for the plane, which will be given to the Royal Flying Doctors Service) and then take out your government's arsenals so that you can be thrown out of the country. Message ends."

"My, aren't you the spandex-clad optimist." (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

OK, so assume a team of superheros with the information resources and accounting chops to audit foreign nations and the firepower to defeat their military and whatever El Presidente can buy in the way of super-mercenaries and personal empowerment. You've done what superheroes do. You've beaten up a villain.

Have you solved the fundamental problem?

[Lucius]

"My, aren't you the spandex-clad optimist." (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

OK, so assume a team of superheros with the information resources and accounting chops to audit foreign nations and the firepower to defeat their military and whatever El Presidente can buy in the way of super-mercenaries and personal empowerment. You've done what superheroes do. You've beaten up a villain.

Have you solved the fundamental problem?

Depends.

Let's take an example from another thread years ago on a similar topic:

Say my extremely powerful super character decides China needs to get out of Tibet.

With or without warning, the highest ranking Chinese military official in Tibet turns up messily dead.

Few days later, his successor is dead.

Few days later, HIS successor is dead.

At this point, "highest ranking officer in Tibet" is something no one wants to be. There's a rash of retirements and resignations and plain old desertions. Suddenly some captain finds he's actually the highest ranking. If he's stubborn enough to stay, he dies the same way.

When the last officer leaves, if they haven't taken the troops with them, how long do you think the troops will stay? Especially if the most senior noncommissioned officer dies next?

Does that solve "The Fundamental Problem?" I don't know, it depends on what you think the fundamental problem is. But I've just forced the withdrawal of an occupying power, at the cost of, at most, a dozen lives, none of them noncombatants.

The problem, as I see it, is that this neat plan will probably be interfered with by opposing superbeings. And then of course you're right back to comic book superbattles.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary has no fundament - does that mean it's not fundamental?

[Clonus]

Does that solve "The Fundamental Problem?" I don't know, it depends on what you think the fundamental problem is. But I've just forced the withdrawal of an occupying power, at the cost of, at most, a dozen lives, none of them noncombatants.


When dictatorships are faced with having having their bigwigs assassinated their historical response is to firstly crank up their security to the max, and then start killing people in the hopes that this will intimidate if not destroy their opponents. It wouldn't be so tidy. However, this is still basically what superheroes do. Hit bad guys.

[Hugh Neilson]

Depends.

Let's take an example from another thread years ago on a similar topic:

Say my extremely powerful super character decides China needs to get out of Tibet.

With or without warning, the highest ranking Chinese military official in Tibet turns up messily dead.

Few days later, his successor is dead.

Few days later, HIS successor is dead.

At this point, "highest ranking officer in Tibet" is something no one wants to be. There's a rash of retirements and resignations and plain old desertions. Suddenly some captain finds he's actually the highest ranking. If he's stubborn enough to stay, he dies the same way.

When the last officer leaves, if they haven't taken the troops with them, how long do you think the troops will stay? Especially if the most senior noncommissioned officer dies next?

Does that solve "The Fundamental Problem?" I don't know, it depends on what you think the fundamental problem is. But I've just forced the withdrawal of an occupying power, at the cost of, at most, a dozen lives, none of them noncombatants.

The problem, as I see it, is that this neat plan will probably be interfered with by opposing superbeings. And then of course you're right back to comic book superbattles.

What are other nations doing during all this - recognizing that this assassin has decided he knows best for the world, and that he can just kill anyone who disagrees with him? Maybe he will next decide the US should be out of the Middle East, so he'll kill the President. Every nation needs to worry about taking a position (or being made to appear to take a position) that this mystery assassin disagrees with.

[brionl]

What are other nations doing during all this - recognizing that this assassin has decided he knows best for the world, and that he can just kill anyone who disagrees with him? Maybe he will next decide the US should be out of the Middle East, so he'll kill the President. Every nation needs to worry about taking a position (or being made to appear to take a position) that this mystery assassin disagrees with.

And the "classic" response to that sort of thing is to just start rounding up random Tibetians and killing them every time one of your top military officers dies. Who knows, they might even get a show trial first.

[Karmakaze]

And the "classic" response to that sort of thing is to just start rounding up random Tibetians and killing them every time one of your top military officers dies. Who knows, they might even get a show trial first.

Or just have the orders flow through a "power behind the throne" and give the highest rank to disposable flunkies.

[Lucius]

Hm. Thinking like a dictator is harder than I thought.

A lot depends on the specific powers of our super assassin, and on what kind of super opposition may intervene.

Assuming he/she/it/they are able to keep it up, and can unerringly locate the actual person in charge, that person is eventually someone thinking "I can sign this order and thousands of people die, and then in a short time I die like the last five people in my position who stayed. Or, I can get the hell out like those three who didn't stick around and at least possibly not die for a long time yet." Still, the body count could be several orders of magnitude higher than I was thinking, most of them innocent.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary wonders if it's a good thing Lucius Alexander can't think like a dictator.

[Hugh Neilson]

The dictator might also give orders to be carried out only in the event of his death or disappearance. If the assassin kills the dictator, 5,000 polictical prisoners currently in camps are to be executed painfully.

[CTaylor]

Essentially force can only accomplish so much, and that's why you can't fix some problems with power, only with winning hearts and minds. There are a lot of examples of this fact in history.

Superheroes do what they have the capacity to do - but in the real world I think supers would be more likely to help fight fires and deal with emergencies and catastrophes rather than fight pitched battles with giant robots.

[Spence]

Essentially force can only accomplish so much, and that's why you can't fix some problems with power, only with winning hearts and minds. There are a lot of examples of this fact in history.

Superheroes do what they have the capacity to do - but in the real world I think supers would be more likely to help fight fires and deal with emergencies and catastrophes rather than fight pitched battles with giant robots.

Pretty much.

But I am sure supers would be like regular people in that they would have their share of 'broken' ones. So your supers would also be drawn into dealing with supervillains.

[Vulcan]

And the "classic" response to that sort of thing is to just start rounding up random Tibetians and killing them every time one of your top military officers dies. Who knows, they might even get a show trial first.

I've always been a big fan of the "Ryan Doctrine" from the later Tom Clancy novels. In short, in times of war if it is legal for us to bomb the soldiers of a nation, it is just as legal to bomb the leaders of said nation.

Of course, that can be harder to do than than it is to discuss. Bush tried it with Saddam, and missed every time...

[CTaylor]

It's easier to do than people think, its just hard to do and have the assassin get away and not directly implicate the nation who did it. A huge bounty on someone's head from the government is an easier way; probably cheaper too.

Personally I think Letters of Marque should be issued by congress against terrorists. Let individuals deal with them, and get paid for it.

[bubba smith]

letters of le mark?whats that

[Korvar]

Letters of Marque were issued to sea captains, essentially deputising them to attack their enemies in the name of the Crown. In practice, they became legalised pirates, so long as they only stole the ships and cargoes of their country's enemies.

[bubba smith]

thanks

[CTaylor]

A campaign of superheroes (have to be fairly low powered, to make it challenging, unless you want the world to in little way resemble the one we are in) who did this sort of work would be interesting, I think. It would be less about heroism and more about vengeance, but it would make a globetrotting dark champions game work.

[Vulcan]

I may have to steal that one...

[Katherine]

A campaign of superheroes (have to be fairly low powered, to make it challenging, unless you want the world to in little way resemble the one we are in) who did this sort of work would be interesting, I think.

That would be awesome! I'm going to propose this set up to my group next meeting.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Come to think of it, in a JLA fight with a team of supervillains, Batman assured a victory by bribing the most powerful supervillain. The bribe was a blank check signed by one of Batman's 'civilian agents' (Bruce Wayne), made out to the orphanage where the supervillain grew up. Ironic, since Bruce being orphaned was his superhero catalyst.


I've never thought of Bribery as a combat skill before...:nonp:

That's good. I'll have to try and use that in game sometime. I can't wait to see the look on my GM's face...:sneaky:

Thinking back, this is something my character Freedom did in a round-about way. So many supervillians were in it for two reasons -- get rich, and beat people up. In her Secret ID, she was developing an international mercenary team, composed significantly of (ex)supervillians, always with very specific tasks in mind, and very high pay. "You can work for me -- you know, 'Wreck that military base, then go to Kuala Lumpur and party.' Or else you can go into prison for three-to-six. Your choice." I don't think my GM knew how to handle it; I know my fellow players got a little annoyed at it. But hell, I paid 15 points for it, right??

[Fabricati]

In the words of a couple of my characters:

Envy: Look, I can't be green-eyed and hacked off all the time, and if I can have a little fun while helping people out, why not? I mean, it's not like it's much different than breaking the bank at Monte Carlo and sure as hell will probably do someone else a lot more good than me winning at roulette. Now are you going to take the signed picture or not?

Corvin: What humanitarian work? *hides a phone number that, if followed up on, would reveal a long line of anonymous donations to charity*

Polaris: You think I do the psychic friend thing for S and G value? I've been slowly guiding this crap city out of the slump it has found itself in, and that'll stop more street-level crime than burning things with my mind ever will. Job well done, really- and I never have to touch a supervillain.

Dragon-Boy: Listen, there's a lot more to it than you'd think. Sure, beating up supervillains is fun- it's almost charming to see what Foxbat has done this time- but to me, well, control is worth a lot, and you don't have much chance to get control against the big boys. Better I figure out how to rein in my latest forms doing something that might help than watching them go bad on the battlefield and ruining innocent lives. So, no, it's not all sunshine and beating the crap out of the latest brick stealing a bank, okay? Back up a little so I can break ground...

[The Weapon]

"My, aren't you the spandex-clad optimist." (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

OK, so assume a team of superheros with the information resources and accounting chops to audit foreign nations and the firepower to defeat their military and whatever El Presidente can buy in the way of super-mercenaries and personal empowerment. You've done what superheroes do. You've beaten up a villain.

Have you solved the fundamental problem?

If the problem is "Bad guys think that they can get money and power by running a country like an ATM machine" then yes, that solves the problem. When people realise that no, you can't fatten your wallet by ripping off the people like that (at least not to the extent El Presidente was). More subtle problems like determining whether the Federal Reserve system is the equivalent of El Presidente's looting might be more difficult.

[McCoy]

I've always been a big fan of the "Ryan Doctrine" from the later Tom Clancy novels. In short, in times of war if it is legal for us to bomb the soldiers of a nation, it is just as legal to bomb the leaders of said nation.

Of course, that can be harder to do than than it is to discuss. Bush tried it with Saddam, and missed every time...
And Saddam tried with Bush.

[McCoy]

It's easier to do than people think, its just hard to do and have the assassin get away and not directly implicate the nation who did it. A huge bounty on someone's head from the government is an easier way; probably cheaper too.

Personally I think Letters of Marque should be issued by congress against terrorists. Let individuals deal with them, and get paid for it.
After all, look at how quickly we got bin Laden after we offered a $25 million reward for him.

Oh, wait --

[AnotherSkip]

How about "Because, if we though our examples, turned one individual from Criminal to Hero, super or not, we have saved the government literally millions of Dollars in legal fees and jail alone." put that on the bottom line for me willya.