Stalin's Super-Apes on TV!

[FenrisUlf]

For those interested --

The History Channel show MonsterQuest will be running a show about Russian 'wildmen' and Stalin's 'Red Ape' project this coming Wednesday. There might be some good usable bits for those of you running really weird pulp campaigns.

(And a sick part of me wonders, in the real world how exactly was Stalin going to get the apes and humans to, erm, breed with each other?)

[Roter Baron]

This "report" or "documentation" is probably as fact founded as the "documentations" about Nazi occultism and "Hitler's interest in the occult" -both just wasn't the case.
Nazi occultism and Soviet hybrid-apes both serve two purposes: Make the audience go "Oh gosh!" and sell books, films and whatnot.

Good for a weird pulp campaign, yes. But so much for "history" on that channel ...

[FenrisUlf]

This "report" or "documentation" is probably as fact founded as the "documentations" about Nazi occultism and "Hitler's interest in the occult" -both just wasn't the case.
Nazi occultism and Soviet hybrid-apes both serve two purposes: Make the audience go "Oh gosh!" and sell books, films and whatnot.

Good for a weird pulp campaign, yes. But so much for "history" on that channel ...

Well, Hitler was basically a materialist by most accounts, and he did despise occultism or any belief that accepted something beyond immediate physical reality (or the "reality" of racial war) -- but at the same time he also believed that the Aryans had a "sacred destiny" to rule the world. He also apparently was increasingly convinced as time went on that he was "destined" to lead them to greatness.

He also seems to have been convinced that the Germans/Aryans came from a sunken lost continent in the North Sea.

For real Nazi occultism though, it all begins and ends with Himmler.

[Roter Baron]

Sure, I will never dispute that a lot/ most of Hitler's ideology is based on pure hogwash and was inconsistent - like not believing in "God" in a Christian or Islamic sense (or pagan), but still being chosen by "destiny". They even introduced a kind of new non-religious religion called "deutsch-gottgläubig" ("German-God-believing") to differ from the "godless" communist atheists - it was basically a religion in which you believed in the Führer to be ... well ... the leader of the German people, destined by history/ ancestry/ destiny/ something higher to lead the Aryan-Geramic master-race to ne glories and triumphs.

I am just saying that most if not all TV "documentaries" about "NS occultism" jump on Himmler's bandwagon and make his occult leanings THE THING in the Third Reich for the whole leading body of the NSDAP and Himmler into something like Hitler's high-priest. And that is totally out of proportion if not wrond in most cases. Yes, the swastika, runes etc were deliberately used because of their "meaning" but not because the had any "occult" meaning like the SS-soldier was sure he would die in combat beacus ehe had his SS-lucky charm on his uniform (or would at least got straight to vahlhalla). The nazis tried to like their sick and inhumane ideology with the cultural heritage of the German people to make it look authentic.

Nazi occultims is interesting if it comes to Himmler and his believes - if nothing more. It makes good stories for pulp adventures. But I have come to the impression that there now quite a few young fellas running around who believe - after watching one too many Indiana Jones movie and reading too much Hellboy - that the Third REich and Hitler/ Himmler was all about bringing a NEW AGE of occult power.
Welcome to occult conspiracies! From there it is only a small step to the International Conspiracies of the Freemasons and the Protocal of the Elders of Zion. I am missing a "Halt! Stop! This is JUST A STORY!"-sign.

[JmOz]

Sure, I will never dispute that a lot/ most of Hitler's ideology is based on pure hogwash and was inconsistent - like not believing in "God" in a Christian or Islamic sense (or pagan), but still being chosen by "destiny". They even introduced a kind of new non-religious religion called "deutsch-gottgläubig" ("German-God-believing") to differ from the "godless" communist atheists - it was basically a religion in which you believed in the Führer to be ... well ... the leader of the German people, destined by history/ ancestry/ destiny/ something higher to lead the Aryan-Geramic master-race to ne glories and triumphs.

I am just saying that most if not all TV "documentaries" about "NS occultism" jump on Himmler's bandwagon and make his occult leanings THE THING in the Third Reich for the whole leading body of the NSDAP and Himmler into something like Hitler's high-priest. And that is totally out of proportion if not wrond in most cases. Yes, the swastika, runes etc were deliberately used because of their "meaning" but not because the had any "occult" meaning like the SS-soldier was sure he would die in combat beacus ehe had his SS-lucky charm on his uniform (or would at least got straight to vahlhalla). The nazis tried to like their sick and inhumane ideology with the cultural heritage of the German people to make it look authentic.

Nazi occultims is interesting if it comes to Himmler and his believes - if nothing more. It makes good stories for pulp adventures. But I have come to the impression that there now quite a few young fellas running around who believe - after watching one too many Indiana Jones movie and reading too much Hellboy - that the Third REich and Hitler/ Himmler was all about bringing a NEW AGE of occult power.
Welcome to occult conspiracies! From there it is only a small step to the International Conspiracies of the Freemasons and the Protocal of the Elders of Zion. I am missing a "Halt! Stop! This is JUST A STORY!"-sign.


I must confess I always thought Hitler had an interest in the Occult, but more as either a propaganda type of thing, or maybe some interest in legitamit Archeology/History. I never thought he beleived in the stuff more than as a mild superstition type of thing at worse...

[Inu]

Am I the only person who sees the name 'Stalin' and think it's misspelled, and needs another 'r'? Maybe I've been reading too many comics lately.

As for the Nazi interest in the occult, the party certainly used mysticism, pseudohistory and whatever else caught its fancy to promote itself (and Germany) whenever possible (latching onto things like the German Futhark, which was meant to be the oldest form of writing or some such nonsense). Since most people seem to think Hitler = Nazi Party, naturally everything the Pary does gets ascribed to him personally. As for what Hitler personally believed? Difficult to separate. He was very media conscious -- it's said he never married Ava Braun because he wanted to have the appearance of an eligible bachelor; it improved his popularity among German women.

That or he was gay. Pick one. :D

Regardless of the truth of that particular element, the fact that it was a convincing argument at all shows that he was very image-conscious (and people think this is a modern phenomenon, pfah). If he were interested in the occult, he may have tried to hide it so as not to turn people off. Who knows.

[FenrisUlf]

Sure, I will never dispute that a lot/ most of Hitler's ideology is based on pure hogwash and was inconsistent - like not believing in "God" in a Christian or Islamic sense (or pagan), but still being chosen by "destiny". They even introduced a kind of new non-religious religion called "deutsch-gottgläubig" ("German-God-believing") to differ from the "godless" communist atheists - it was basically a religion in which you believed in the Führer to be ... well ... the leader of the German people, destined by history/ ancestry/ destiny/ something higher to lead the Aryan-Geramic master-race to ne glories and triumphs.

I've also read of the 'German Faith Movement', organized by pro-Nazi Protestant clergymen, that tried to reconcile Christianity to Naziism, by arguing that Hitler was the Second Coming (of Christ). I'll spare you my opinion of that.


I am just saying that most if not all TV "documentaries" about "NS occultism" jump on Himmler's bandwagon and make his occult leanings THE THING in the Third Reich for the whole leading body of the NSDAP and Himmler into something like Hitler's high-priest. And that is totally out of proportion if not wrond in most cases. Yes, the swastika, runes etc were deliberately used because of their "meaning" but not because the had any "occult" meaning like the SS-soldier was sure he would die in combat beacus ehe had his SS-lucky charm on his uniform (or would at least got straight to vahlhalla). The nazis tried to like their sick and inhumane ideology with the cultural heritage of the German people to make it look authentic.

Nazi occultims is interesting if it comes to Himmler and his believes - if nothing more. It makes good stories for pulp adventures. But I have come to the impression that there now quite a few young fellas running around who believe - after watching one too many Indiana Jones movie and reading too much Hellboy - that the Third REich and Hitler/ Himmler was all about bringing a NEW AGE of occult power.
Welcome to occult conspiracies! From there it is only a small step to the International Conspiracies of the Freemasons and the Protocal of the Elders of Zion. I am missing a "Halt! Stop! This is JUST A STORY!"-sign.

Reminds me of what Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke wrote in his books about the reality behind Nazi occultism and modern neo-Nazi myths, that it's dangerous to take this stuff (Nazi occult conspiracy theories) seriously because of the way it trivializes the death camps, slavery, and tyranny that was the reality of Naziism. And I do have to agree with him.

Mind, I still likes me my Nazi occultist/rune sorceror/witchcraft antics in games and fiction, but some folks do take it waaaay too seriously.

[Kristopher]

Sure, I will never dispute that a lot/ most of Hitler's ideology is based on pure hogwash and was inconsistent - like not believing in "God" in a Christian or Islamic sense (or pagan), but still being chosen by "destiny". They even introduced a kind of new non-religious religion called "deutsch-gottgläubig" ("German-God-believing") to differ from the "godless" communist atheists - it was basically a religion in which you believed in the Führer to be ... well ... the leader of the German people, destined by history/ ancestry/ destiny/ something higher to lead the Aryan-Geramic master-race to ne glories and triumphs.

I am just saying that most if not all TV "documentaries" about "NS occultism" jump on Himmler's bandwagon and make his occult leanings THE THING in the Third Reich for the whole leading body of the NSDAP and Himmler into something like Hitler's high-priest. And that is totally out of proportion if not wrond in most cases. Yes, the swastika, runes etc were deliberately used because of their "meaning" but not because the had any "occult" meaning like the SS-soldier was sure he would die in combat beacus ehe had his SS-lucky charm on his uniform (or would at least got straight to vahlhalla). The nazis tried to like their sick and inhumane ideology with the cultural heritage of the German people to make it look authentic.

Nazi occultims is interesting if it comes to Himmler and his believes - if nothing more. It makes good stories for pulp adventures. But I have come to the impression that there now quite a few young fellas running around who believe - after watching one too many Indiana Jones movie and reading too much Hellboy - that the Third REich and Hitler/ Himmler was all about bringing a NEW AGE of occult power.
Welcome to occult conspiracies! From there it is only a small step to the International Conspiracies of the Freemasons and the Protocal of the Elders of Zion. I am missing a "Halt! Stop! This is JUST A STORY!"-sign.

On the other hand, there were many in the proto-Nazi movements who were deeply into the occult.

[Vestnik]

I think part of the issue is that Hitler and Stalin are people whose deeds are so far beyond the pale that people will believe anything you say about them. Compared to the gravity of what they actually did, things like occult interest or super-apes are really small potatoes.

[FenrisUlf]

On the other hand, there were many in the proto-Nazi movements who were deeply into the occult.

Like Lanz von Liebenfels' Order of the New Templars and the Reichshammerbund.

Really, I keep recommending these books, but if you want more on the occult roots of Naziism, then the best book is, well, Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke's The Occult Roots of Naziism. Incredibly well-done and heavily researched, not too mention well written, it's a one stop shop for anyone who wants to use Vile Occult Nazis in their games.

Heck, some of the groups were from the 19th century, so you could probably use it for Vile Occult proto-Fascists in your Victorian Hero games... the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn versus Guido von List's Armanen Rune Society!

[Roter Baron]

Dear old Lanz was a certified nutjob whose publications may have had some influence on Hitler during his Vienna times, but he was never "The man who gave Hitler his ideas" (a title of a biography about Jörg lanz von Liebenfels, real name Adolph Josef Lanz, published in the 50s). Especially his very esoteric ideas and his hatred of women (his ramblings about white women being so fascinated by the sexual animal attraction of balck men that they had to be kept under close lock seems to me like an indicator that Lanz did not have a lot of luck with the ladies ...) were things that Hitler did not share - if for fear of taking political damage.

In the 50s von Liebenfels even claimed that he inspired Lenin ... yeah, I can see that all right!