What are "vitals"

[Edsel]

How do you define the hit location "vitals" in your game?

There seems to be a generally held view that the vitals equal the groin. But I can find no basis for this in the rules. Perhaps someone can point out where in the rules vitals are defined?

Personally I have always felt that saying the vitals is the groin is rather silly. As long as I have been playing Hero System / Champions (early 1980s) my groups have always defined vitals to be more than just the groin. The "chest" is any part of the upper trunk of the body except for vital organs (for instance, the heart). The "stomach" is any part of the abdomen except for the major arteries and or other areas likely to cause a greatly increased chance of fatal wounds. Thus we have always defined the "vitals" to be a area from the heart down through the central torso and abdomen where vital organs are located (including the groin). In our game a vitals hit is generally considered to be a heart hit.

How do others define the vitals?

[The Monster]

In our group, the first reaction - tounge-in-cheek - is the groin shot.
Your description is pretty good, however. In Deadlands, a similar hit location array includes the labels "Upper Guts" and "Lower Guts," which probably captures the general sense quite nicely. I think if I had to draw lines, I'd put Stomach at about the bottom of the rib cage down about halfway to the groin (i.e., abour the location of the actual stomach), then below that is Vitals - genitalia, yes, but also intestines, lower spine, and a few other oddities that are really dangerous if messed up.

I'm not a doctor, but I played one in an RPG once!

[Thia Halmades]

Um, duh.

The vitals are "The 13." As in, "I got hit in the thirteen! It hurts!" What'd you think it was? :straight:

[CrosshairCollie]

In our group, the first reaction - tounge-in-cheek - is the groin shot.
Your description is pretty good, however. In Deadlands, a similar hit location array includes the labels "Upper Guts" and "Lower Guts," which probably captures the general sense quite nicely. I think if I had to draw lines, I'd put Stomach at about the bottom of the rib cage down about halfway to the groin (i.e., abour the location of the actual stomach), then below that is Vitals - genitalia, yes, but also intestines, lower spine, and a few other oddities that are really dangerous if messed up.

I'm not a doctor, but I played one in an RPG once!

That's about how I call it. The 13 can be the groin, but could also be in the intestines and the like.

[Comic]

There's a certain squeamishness level involved in the answer, and always cultural considerations.

Some cultures, of course, don't have a 13.

In others, it's impossible to hit the 13, visibly.

Some alien species have variations on 13.

Some characters with certain psychological limitations like overconfidence confuse their 5 with their 13. Imagine the look of disappointment when their fellow player looks over and says, "You call that a 13? And I let you teach me combat driving?! No wonder I can't parallel park!"

[The Monster]

There's a certain squeamishness level involved in the answer, and always cultural considerations.

Some cultures, of course, don't have a 13.

In others, it's impossible to hit the 13, visibly.

Some alien species have variations on 13.

Some characters with certain psychological limitations like overconfidence confuse their 5 with their 13. Imagine the look of disappointment when their fellow player looks over and says, "You call that a 13? And I let you teach me combat driving?! No wonder I can't parallel park!"

Very true! The Roman Empire, for example, did not have 13s. They had a pre-gunpowder version, the XIII. It still hurt to be hit there, though. A lot.

[nexus]

I believe it's supposed to be the groin officially. I consider them to be "vital areas" on the torso/lower body. It doesn't click totally with sectional armor but I don't use that system much. It's easier for me to suspend disbelief a little than to tell a player "Your character just took significant Body to the Vitals and is now a eunuch/neuter." :)

[Captain Obvious]

In an illustrated "Three Musketeers" my grandma sent me when I was a kid, someone gets stabbed in the "vitals" and it is clearly not the jiggly bits, so I've never considered a "vitals" hit to only include the genitals, especially given how often you hear of eunuchs in primitive societies, or people who had their junk shot off in Nam and lived. While some attacks are clearly meant to be a groin shot (Nerve Strike, targets Vitals) not every hit location 13 is.

If you're wearing sectional armor, though, and the guy has on a steel breastplate and linen breeches, and a player rolls a 13 on hit location, that guy ain't getting the armor benefits a heart shot would bring.

[nexus]

In an illustrated "Three Musketeers" my grandma sent me when I was a kid, someone gets stabbed in the "vitals" and it is clearly not the jiggly bits, so I've never considered a "vitals" hit to only include the genitals, especially given how often you hear of eunuchs in primitive societies, or people who had their junk shot off in Nam and lived. While some attacks are clearly meant to be a groin shot (Nerve Strike, targets Vitals) not every hit location 13 is.

If you're wearing sectional armor, though, and the guy has on a steel breastplate and linen breeches, and a player rolls a 13 on hit location, that guy ain't getting the armor benefits a heart shot would bring.

Makes sense, narratively the attacker could have "found a chink in his armor" nicked an artery or some other bit of random bad luck for the target.

[Vanguard]

That's pretty much the way we do it as well.

"The Vitals" can be any vital internal organ but we usually refer to it as the groin mainly because we get such a large kick out of it. :)

But it's pretty well known in our group that "the vitals" is just that. It could represent a shot to the kidneys, nicking the heart with your dagger, etc.

[nexus]

"The Vitals" can be any vital internal organ but we usually refer to it as the groin mainly because we get such a large kick out of it. :)


*rimshot*

:rofl:

[Bloodstone]

Officially it's the groin per UMA.

[ghost-angel]

5ER page 415 Vitals is defined as any particularly delicate or vulnerable area on the body; this can include the groin, heart, large artery, or many other areas.

So Mr Chest Plate hit in the vitals obviously just got nicked in an artery somewhere, perhaps the thigh.

The problem arises when people look at the Hit Location Chart it makes a fairly logical progression from top to bottom on the body (head down to toes) with the Vitals location stuck between "Stomach" and "Thigh" and people tend to put Stomach as "Lower Abdomen Above The Waistline" and Thigh as "Upper legs below the leg joint" leaving a few inches of body uncovered by the Hit Location Chart - so obviously the "groin and large intestinal area" are the Vitals in most gamers minds.

Personally, I like the rulesbooks concept.

[ghost-angel]

Officially it's the groin per UMA.

Got a page reference because I couldn't find it saying that at all.

[mallet]

Yah, I consider "Vitals" to be a hit to any of the Groin, Liver, Kidney, Spleen, etc...

[nexus]

5ER page 415 Vitals is defined as any particularly delicate or vulnerable area on the body; this can include the groin, heart, large artery, or many other areas.

So Mr Chest Plate hit in the vitals obviously just got nicked in an artery somewhere, perhaps the thigh.

The problem arises when people look at the Hit Location Chart it makes a fairly logical progression from top to bottom on the body (head down to toes) with the Vitals location stuck between "Stomach" and "Thigh" and people tend to put Stomach as "Lower Abdomen Above The Waistline" and Thigh as "Upper legs below the leg joint" leaving a few inches of body uncovered by the Hit Location Chart - so obviously the "groin and large intestinal area" are the Vitals in most gamers minds.

Personally, I like the rulesbooks concept.

An idea off the the top of my head. Roll "Hit Location" twice. Once to determine the damage modifier, the second time to determine the actual hit location for purposes of sectional armor, wounds and description. If that adds too much to the already hours long (:rolleyes:) Hero combat resolution system used the To hit roll as the "actual location" roll? (possibly allowing that to adjusted by how much the attacker beat the defenders DCV. I'm not sure about that part or how it would effect deliberately targeting specific locations.

[Pental]

I think we've always considered the 13 area to be anything around the area of the pelvis, not necessarily just the genital region.

Reminds me of this kid in our ER a few years ago who'd customized his BMX bike with some pipes on the back axle. Fell off, fell straight down and severed his femoral artery. Thankfully they life-flighted him to Metro and he didn't die.
That's a shot to his 13 that he's going to remember for the rest of his life.

[Lucius]

Got a page reference because I couldn't find it saying that at all.

That's what I was thinking. I certainly don't remember anything like that in Ultimate Martial Artist.

Lucius Alexander

Still designing a hit location chart for the palindromedary

[Thia Halmades]

I think we've always considered the 13 area to be anything around the area of the pelvis, not necessarily just the genital region.

Reminds me of this kid in our ER a few years ago who'd customized his BMX bike with some pipes on the back axle. Fell off, fell straight down and severed his femoral artery. Thankfully they life-flighted him to Metro and he didn't die.
That's a shot to his 13 that he's going to remember for the rest of his life.

This is actually a really good point; the thirteen can easily represent that rare "lucky hit" that just does colossal damage, like the rare puncture to the femoral artery, a hiccup as a piece of armor skips upwards and jams into the throat, a nasty shot into an unprotected arm pit.

Any "vital area" or wicked lucky shot could qualify without going into the gruesome details.

[Ternaugh]

A quick search on the UMA PDF turns up a lot of references to low blows targeting the vitals, and the Full Contact Karate Armor specifically states that an athletic cup protects Hit Location 13 (p. 186).

JoeG

[ghost-angel]

A quick search on the UMA PDF turns up a lot of references to low blows targeting the vitals, and the Full Contact Karate Armor specifically states that an athletic cup protects Hit Location 13 (p. 186).

JoeG

Bizarre. I'll ignore it.

[Thia Halmades]

Bizarre. I'll ignore it.

I like mine better anyway.

[Ternaugh]

I like mine better anyway.

I would agree. Yours is much better for the roleplaying aspects.

JoeG

[ghost-angel]

I like mine better anyway.

Yours is essentially the rules,

So you like Steve's better :)

[Thia Halmades]

Yours is essentially the rules,

So you like Steve's better :)

A rare moment of disagreement; I always interpreted the core rules to describe "hard & fast" locations, so a 'jock strap' or similar device would cover "the 13." I think mine is a lot more open. However, other than Joe's reference, I haven't seen hard evidence one way or another.

[ghost-angel]

few posts up, p415 describes Vitals almost exactly as you have.

[Thia Halmades]

few posts up, p415 describes Vitals almost exactly as you have.

Oh, Osmosis, how would I ever get by without you?

[Kaze9999]

How do you define the hit location "vitals" in your game?

There seems to be a generally held view that the vitals equal the groin. But I can find no basis for this in the rules. Perhaps someone can point out where in the rules vitals are defined?

Personally I have always felt that saying the vitals is the groin is rather silly. As long as I have been playing Hero System / Champions (early 1980s) my groups have always defined vitals to be more than just the groin. The "chest" is any part of the upper trunk of the body except for vital organs (for instance, the heart). The "stomach" is any part of the abdomen except for the major arteries and or other areas likely to cause a greatly increased chance of fatal wounds. Thus we have always defined the "vitals" to be a area from the heart down through the central torso and abdomen where vital organs are located (including the groin). In our game a vitals hit is generally considered to be a heart hit.

How do others define the vitals?



I think that I can provide an authoritative answer courtesy of the latest feature to be added to Hero Designer, a die roller, with a little graphic representation of the hit locations...I just clicked through multiple attack rolls until I got a 'vitals' hit, and...well I think the image is pretty clear (attached if the link doesn't come through):

http://img172.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vitalshitwn7.jpg

[ghost-angel]

That's not official though :)

[Edsel]

That's not official though :)
Indeed, but it was this result playing with the dice roller that got me to wondering if there was an official ruling as to what location 13 was. I was happy to see the p415 reference since it reinforced what I have always remembered the official stance to be. I believe that the UMA reference deals with that specific form of attack. In other words that specific maneuver targets that particular vital area so in that case an athletic cup provides protection.

On page 488 the Armor Coverage Table says that a "Short Vest" protects areas 12-13. This implies to me that the short vest covers the stomach and the vital areas of the chest. A short vest that covered the stomach and the groin would basically be bullet-proof diapers which is a really silly mental image. :nonp:

While I cannot find a specific reference in 4th Edition it uses the same armor coverage table.

[Chris Goodwin]

That's pretty much the way we do it as well.

"The Vitals" can be any vital internal organ but we usually refer to it as the groin mainly because we get such a large kick out of it. :)

This was my group also. :D

[Hugh Neilson]

I believe it's supposed to be the groin officially. I consider them to be "vital areas" on the torso/lower body. It doesn't click totally with sectional armor but I don't use that system much. It's easier for me to suspend disbelief a little than to tell a player "Your character just took significant Body to the Vitals and is now a eunuch/neuter." :)


Officially it's the groin per UMA.


5ER page 415 Vitals is defined as any particularly delicate or vulnerable area on the body; this can include the groin, heart, large artery, or many other areas.

So Mr Chest Plate hit in the vitals obviously just got nicked in an artery somewhere, perhaps the thigh.

The problem arises when people look at the Hit Location Chart it makes a fairly logical progression from top to bottom on the body (head down to toes) with the Vitals location stuck between "Stomach" and "Thigh" and people tend to put Stomach as "Lower Abdomen Above The Waistline" and Thigh as "Upper legs below the leg joint" leaving a few inches of body uncovered by the Hit Location Chart - so obviously the "groin and large intestinal area" are the Vitals in most gamers minds.

Personally, I like the rulesbooks concept.

For completeness:


"Vitals" is defined as any particularly delicate or vulnerable area on the body; this can include the groin, the heart, a large artery, or many other areas. The GM should choose whatever effect is most appropriate for the attack and the situation.

As to what's appropriate for any given situation, I'd say we're getting into Beavis and Butthead Hero, rather than any larger than life cinematic game, when a roll of 13 equates to:


HuhHuhHuhHuh He gots ya in the 'nads HuhHuhHuhHuh

YMMV

[Lucius]

Bizarre. I'll ignore it.

Yeah, but at least he's got a citation.

Is this one of those perennial topics that keeps coming up for discussion, like how to fix Killing Attacks and why STR and CON are too cheap?

Lucius Alexander

Buying the "Not Hit Location" power for the palindromedary

[CrosshairCollie]

This was my group also. :D

Mine too, especially after one memorable Fantasy Hero character who seemed to have the power '20 STR TK, Always On, Only To Attract Hammer-Based Weapons to Location 13'.

[ghost-angel]

Yeah, but at least he's got a citation.

Is this one of those perennial topics that keeps coming up for discussion, like how to fix Killing Attacks and why STR and CON are too cheap?

It is indeed. It was a Fantasy Hero thread a little while back.

At least this one, IMO, has some legitimate basis in confusion as the texts constantly contradict themselves as to where the vitals might be exactly.

If a short vest protects the vitals (locations 12-13), but the vitals may be an artery hit in the leg (somewhere near location 14ish) does that mean a short vest actually covers the thigh somewhat? Or are the Vitals indeed that area below the belly button and near your waist? including the groin and area just above it.

IMO the "Vitals" would have been better off being place on one extreme of the Hit Chart or the other... if a Vital Hit were an 18 it would avoid the whole disrupting the flow down the body issue it currently creates.

Thus Hit Locations 3-17 are predetermined body parts, location 18 is a Vital Hit that tags somewhere very important or is just a really lucky hit anywhere. And then could easily be seen as only full body armor covering Location 18 at all, everything else pertains to a specific body part somewhere else on the chart (i.e. Locations 3-17).

[Beast]

for me the vitals is that 3"wide strip from the bottom of the neck to your belly button
it is where you will find the heart, spine, good potion of your liver, stomach and major north/south running blood vessels

[Edsel]

for me the vitals is that 3"wide strip from the bottom of the neck to your belly button
it is where you will find the heart, spine, good potion of your liver, stomach and major north/south running blood vessels
That just about perfectly agrees with my line of thinking about it.

[Beast]

I seem to remember that from The Morrow Project and the hit location chart they had


That just about perfectly agrees with my line of thinking about it.

[Comic]

Vitals: anything that, if it were on a sheep, one would find in haggis.

[Thia Halmades]

:sick:

Thanks, comic.

[Toadmaster]

I like the concept that Vitals is a good shot in the torso area, however the hit location chart pretty much says NADS dude you got hit in the NADS. Of course there are also those who suggest "vitals" as put on the hit location chart should extend to 14 and an 11- chance on a roll of 15. :D


Personally I say adjust the hit location chart so that torso armor protects 13.

[Edsel]

On page 488 the Armor Coverage Table says that a "Short Vest" protects areas 12-13. This implies to me that the short vest covers the stomach and the vital areas of the chest. A short vest that covered the stomach and the groin would basically be bullet-proof diapers which is a really silly mental image. :nonp:
I still think that this is the strongest evidence that 13 is not necessarily the nads.

[Comic]

Some languages lack words that correspond to anatomy the rest of the world knows is obviously distinct.

In Polish, for example, the same word equally means legs and feet. (That is, undiluted Polish prior to strong external influence.)

In the same way, let's face it, there are 16 locations available from 3-18. I don't care who you are, your 13 is just not big enough to warrant 1/16th your total volume.

(And if it is, please do not send me photographic evidence. Again. You know who you are.)

So.. the 13 _might_ be, or might not be, at GM's discretion. And we all know how discrete GM's are. Unless at character creation time, you specify your hit location to be something special.

Which reminds me of the time I was asked by the other players to veto a character for my campaign, because the player wanted all his powers based on 'Stretching, One Limb Only.' And he had a complete character sheet.. with artwork. It was not good.

So, I guess the point is.. oh. Yeah. Haggis.

[MorpheousXO]

This is actually a really good point; the thirteen can easily represent that rare "lucky hit" that just does colossal damage, like the rare puncture to the femoral artery, a hiccup as a piece of armor skips upwards and jams into the throat, a nasty shot into an unprotected arm pit.

Any "vital area" or wicked lucky shot could qualify without going into the gruesome details.


It is indeed. It was a Fantasy Hero thread a little while back.

At least this one, IMO, has some legitimate basis in confusion as the texts constantly contradict themselves as to where the vitals might be exactly.

If a short vest protects the vitals (locations 12-13), but the vitals may be an artery hit in the leg (somewhere near location 14ish) does that mean a short vest actually covers the thigh somewhat? Or are the Vitals indeed that area below the belly button and near your waist? including the groin and area just above it.

IMO the "Vitals" would have been better off being place on one extreme of the Hit Chart or the other... if a Vital Hit were an 18 it would avoid the whole disrupting the flow down the body issue it currently creates.

Thus Hit Locations 3-17 are predetermined body parts, location 18 is a Vital Hit that tags somewhere very important or is just a really lucky hit anywhere. And then could easily be seen as only full body armor covering Location 18 at all, everything else pertains to a specific body part somewhere else on the chart (i.e. Locations 3-17).

Here we go, all my problems (and fixes too...) are summed up in these two quotes. The problem with 13 being a rare lucky shot to a vital area of the body is that 13 comes up WAAAAAAAAAY too often. Happened five times in ONE combat (only combat I've run, but still!). That is not a rare shot. It needs to be down at 18, even though 18 is supposed to be a bad roll since lower is better, but I think this is a case of needing the really damaging shot to be rarer, so that takes precedence.

The proble with that is sectional armor, because if 13 is wherever, how exactly DO you buy armor for it? That's mainly a problem if you're mixing armor types. House rule that 13 (or whereever you put it) must be the lowest armor you are wearing? Other idea, DO make it lower intestinals/spine/jibblies hit loc, but lower it's multiplier so it's not as devastating a hit because of how often it hits. Then you're only real critical hits are headshots. Change hit loc 3 to vitals then! :eg:

Sorry, rambling cause I'm just typing as I'm thinking it. Stupid thought processes... :help:

[Sean Waters]

I've been married long enough that genitals are no longer 'vitals'.

[Hugh Neilson]

In the same way, let's face it, there are 16 locations available from 3-18. I don't care who you are, your 13 is just not big enough to warrant 1/16th your total volume.

(And if it is, please do not send me photographic evidence. Again. You know who you are.)

So.. the 13 _might_ be, or might not be, at GM's discretion. And we all know how discrete GM's are. Unless at character creation time, you specify your hit location to be something special.

Actually, the number 13 will come up on 3d6 16.2%of the time (35 possible rolls total 13; there are 216 possibilities in aggregate), so that's almost 1/6 of the time.


So, I guess the point is.. oh. Yeah. Haggis.

Well, my point only serves to reinforce your point, and the haggis analogy is as good as any.

[Thia Halmades]

I've been married long enough that genitals are no longer 'vitals'.

Well, that's a personal problem. Can we get you armor to cover that, by chance?

As to what Morpheus was saying; I agree that like anything else, you should be able to 'protect' a Vital Area, and I don't necessarily think that "t3h 13" should be the nads, since that only applies to 1/2 of the population on a technicality, but I'm pretty sure women have a 13 as well. So I'm comfortable with the short vest option.

[Shaft]

I've always treated 13 as a shot that results in damage to one of the following:

1) throat/trachea
2) heart/critical artery
3) lungs
4) kidneys/spleen
5) liver/appendix
6) bladder/genitals/colon

The short vest protects items 2-5. If my PC happens to be wearing a short vest, I cut them some slack and usually "target" the protected areas if a 13 comes up.

[Sean Waters]

Well, that's a personal problem. Can we get you armor to cover that, by chance?

As to what Morpheus was saying; I agree that like anything else, you should be able to 'protect' a Vital Area, and I don't necessarily think that "t3h 13" should be the nads, since that only applies to 1/2 of the population on a technicality, but I'm pretty sure women have a 13 as well. So I'm comfortable with the short vest option.

I don't need armour to cover that: it never gets aimed at. *sigh*

That does lead to an interesting point though: what does armour cover, if it protects location 13: well, that isn't entirely clear, but it includes what a short vest would cover. The book actually defines vitals (p415) as any particularly vulnerable area - heart, groin, a large artery etc. The trouble is they are all in different places so, whilst it is OK for a 'did I cause a lot of pain' calculation it is less helpful for armour coverage, unless you define that as diverse bits of strategic reinforcement.

Anyway, there you go.

[Hugh Neilson]

I don't need armour to cover that: it never gets aimed at. *sigh*

That does lead to an interesting point though: what does armour cover, if it protects location 13: well, that isn't entirely clear, but it includes what a short vest would cover. The book actually defines vitals (p415) as any particularly vulnerable area - heart, groin, a large artery etc. The trouble is they are all in different places so, whilst it is OK for a 'did I cause a lot of pain' calculation it is less helpful for armour coverage, unless you define that as diverse bits of strategic reinforcement.

Anyway, there you go.

It becomes a problem because it's the only abstract hit location. I think the assumption is, or can be, that a Short Vest covers enough of the vitals, in covering the chest area, that it is assumed to be effective against all hits to the vitals. Short of subtables and sub-sub tables that overcomplicate the hit location process, it's probably the best we're going to get.

Anyone care to opine on how to compute leg damage against an opponent with one wooden leg? ;)

[Shaft]

Anyone care to opine on how to compute leg damage against an opponent with one wooden leg? ;)

He "wooden" take damage. :D

[Bloodstone]

A quick search on the UMA PDF turns up a lot of references to low blows targeting the vitals, and the Full Contact Karate Armor specifically states that an athletic cup protects Hit Location 13 (p. 186).

JoeG

Yep, this is what I was referring to.


I don't necessarily think that "t3h 13" should be the nads, since that only applies to 1/2 of the population on a technicality, but I'm pretty sure women have a 13 as well.

Actually, getting kicked in the groin is an incredibly painful experience for women too...

[Bloodstone]

Anyone care to opine on how to compute leg damage against an opponent with one wooden leg? ;)

I knew a man with a wooden leg named Smith!

[Sean Waters]

I knew a man with a wooden leg named Smith!

What was his other leg called?

[Sean Waters]

He "wooden" take damage. :D

OK, you need to make a New Year Resolution....:D

[Kenn]

Basically, I tend to think of it as anything below the ribcage and above the legs. But, I've only played in one Fantasy Hero game where we actually used Hit Locations, and even then we were kind of fast and loose about it.

There was one memorable occaision where one of the players really wanted to kill an NPC villain (who was clearly intended to be a recurring character over several chapters) just because his name was Hoschew K'Zuuntite. So the player had Rin attack Hoschew with his mace, and rolled a 13. It didn't have to be a groin shot, but in agame with a character named Hoschew K'Zuuntite, it seemed appropriate to let it be a 'nad shot.

[ghost-angel]

Hoschew K'Zuuntite ... that's beyond awesome. I have got to figure out how to use that with a Character.

And slightly back on topic... the Vitals is any area I don't want to get hit in. And I don't want to get hit anywhere - it's all pretty Vital if you ask me.

[MorpheousXO]

And slightly back on topic... the Vitals is any area I don't want to get hit in. And I don't want to get hit anywhere - it's all pretty Vital if you ask me.

QFT!

[Thia Halmades]

WTF is QFT?! Another TLA to PMO?

[MorpheousXO]

Ahem... quoted for truth... :o

[MorpheousXO]

Trains Leave Atlanta to Post-Modern Occult?

[Bloodstone]

WTF is QFT?! Another TLA to PMO?

n00b! :p

[Bloodstone]

Trains Leave Atlanta to Post-Modern Occult?

Three Letter Acronym to Piss Me Off

[MorpheousXO]

Three Letter Acronym to Piss Me Off

Ahh... now knowing that, maybe I shouldn't have made that post in the Fantasy Hero Printing Error thread... :whistle:

[Mr_Yuck]

I've always felt the majority of the evidence points to the kiwis and surrounding area.

Otherwise it is too arbitrary to determine *where* exactly that shot hit and *if* there was or was not armor present.

[Kenn]

I think most TLA's are not Three Letter Acronymns; they are Three Letter Abbreviations.

[AmadanNaBriona]

due to the desire to avoid an abstract hit location, I've mostly settled on the decision for my games that locations 12 (stomach) and 13 (vitals) are essentially "intermixed" as "abdomen below the ribcage", mentally reconfiguring stomach to mean "guts/Intestines" and Vitals to mean "Vital Organs (including the stomach). I do potentially include the groin as a "vital" mostly for specially targeted martial moves like the Low Blow, but in general consider it a hit to any of the actual, ya'know VITAL organs that live down there.
Frankly speaking....the groin isn't really that vital. Hurts like the dickens, bleeds a lot....but it's sitting on top of one of the biggest bone plates in the human body, and in general isn't really all that important to the overall function of the body. When discussing relatively realistic wound effects, getting your bladder perforated, or a kidney, or your liver.... even the stomach.... when all is said and done, you'll end up WISHING you'd only lost your happy sacks rather than watching your system overload with toxins and begin failing in a variety of gruesome and painful ways.

[MorpheousXO]

Sorry to continue the derail, but the first time I saw QFT I thought it meant "Quiet Flak-Tard!" to put it less vulgar. Anyways... umm... back on topic... umm...

I like Sean's idea of it being slight bits of stategic reinforcement in various places to represent armor for loc 13 being a more abstract hit loc. I still say, though, that it either needs to be reduced or have it's position moved due to getting rolled waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too often (more often than a DnD crit!).

[Hugh Neilson]

I like Sean's idea of it being slight bits of stategic reinforcement in various places to represent armor for loc 13 being a more abstract hit loc. I still say, though, that it either needs to be reduced or have it's position moved due to getting rolled waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too often (more often than a DnD crit!).

This depends on how often you think a hit should land in a vital location. One in six seems not too unreasonable, but it is fairly often, especially when combined with head hits. Of course, if you make good hits less frequent, it often upsets players.

Where would people think Vitals were if we moved the number into a less frequently rolled range ;)

[Captain Obvious]

This depends on how often you think a hit should land in a vital location. One in six seems not too unreasonable, but it is fairly often, especially when combined with head hits. Of course, if you make good hits less frequent, it often upsets players.

Where would people think Vitals were if we moved the number into a less frequently rolled range ;)

"Hero system is so dumb. Not only do you have to have a PhD in Mathematics and a Cray supercomputer to build a character, but if you get hit in the toe with any half-decent attack, you might as well start making another character."

[jye42]

My group difines it like this.
When purchasing locational armor it counts as being from thigh to navel or there abouts
Players that want to stab somone in the heart or somthing similar take the -8 vitals loc shot in witch case whatever locational armor that makes sence applies e.g. heart would be loc 10 armor.

[Hugh Neilson]

My group difines it like this.
When purchasing locational armor it counts as being from thigh to navel or there abouts
Players that want to stab somone in the heart or somthing similar take the -8 vitals loc shot in witch case whatever locational armor that makes sence applies e.g. heart would be loc 10 armor.

This still requires you to define where the vitals are, doesn't it? Otherwise, I'll aim for a vital area in the hit location not covered by that sectional armor which has the smallest penalty ("I aim for the vital part of his arm")

[Thia Halmades]

This still requires you to define where the vitals are, doesn't it? Otherwise, I'll aim for a vital area in the hit location not covered by that sectional armor which has the smallest penalty ("I aim for the vital part of his arm")

Having discussed this with Jason last night, we came to the following conclusion:

"Vitals" are generally only going to be covered by some sort of full body armor. Any 'sectional' armor will likely leave the appropriate gaps somewhere along the line (no Vital area).

[Hugh Neilson]

Having discussed this with Jason last night, we came to the following conclusion:

"Vitals" are generally only going to be covered by some sort of full body armor. Any 'sectional' armor will likely leave the appropriate gaps somewhere along the line (no Vital area).

That seems like a very reasonable approach. You might consider armor that increases the hit location penalty for vitals (ie it's harder to target that gap in the armor), but once you're taking a -8 penalty anyway, the head shot becomes as or more attractive anyway.

[Comic]

Heh. Be a pretty stupid armorer to decide, "Hrm, now where should I protect most, vitals, or something non-vital?"

Well, unless he's designing a bikini.

[Thia Halmades]

Well as I said, "vitals" to me aren't 't3h nutz.' It's any exposed, very important area that dealing damage to can result in serious(er) consequences than usual. So a regular suit of chain likely won't cover all of the possible vital areas. IOW, 13 for me is a special effect of a lucky hit; not a specific singular location.

[Sean Waters]

Heh. Be a pretty stupid armorer to decide, "Hrm, now where should I protect most, vitals, or something non-vital?"

Well, unless he's designing a bikini.

Are you suggesting that bikinis don't cover vital stuff?

I must do some research...

The basic problem with 'vitals' would seem to be that, on th eone hand, it covers a number of different locations, but on the other it is quite specific: it is location 13.

I don't think we can entirely resolve the issue without changing the hit location table. If you are not using sectional armour, then you can define the location as anything which suffers more than usual damage when hit, but if you ARE using sectional armour it probably has to be defined as the groin area.

[Sean Waters]

Well as I said, "vitals" to me aren't 't3h nutz.' It's any exposed, very important area that dealing damage to can result in serious(er) consequences than usual. So a regular suit of chain likely won't cover all of the possible vital areas. IOW, 13 for me is a special effect of a lucky hit; not a specific singular location.

...which is fine but for the fact that '13' might well be covered by armour that other areas are not covered by. I mean, you CAN stab somenone in pretty much any part of the body, excape maybe hands and feet, and find a reasonably major blood vessel; the problem is trying in sectional armour to that, possibly quite diverse, location.

[Thia Halmades]

...which is fine but for the fact that '13' might well be covered by armour that other areas are not covered by. I mean, you CAN stab somenone in pretty much any part of the body, excape maybe hands and feet, and find a reasonably major blood vessel; the problem is trying in sectional armour to that, possibly quite diverse, location.

Absolutely. Which is why I'm so fond of saying, "YMMV." :eg:

[Cannon_Fodder]

My GM treats it the same way as we do "Floating Through Armor Crits" in BattleTech. We re-roll the location and call it someting vital in the the new location.

[MorpheousXO]

My GM treats it the same way as we do "Floating Through Armor Crits" in BattleTech. We re-roll the location and call it someting vital in the the new location.

Yet another reason to move it at least a few more locs away from the middle so that you're not having to reroll all the time ;)

So yeah, I'll just use sean's idea, with sectional it will be lower intestinals/groin/inner thigh, without it'll be various weak points. Though I might make it do -1 stunX

[nexus]

My GM treats it the same way as we do "Floating Through Armor Crits" in BattleTech. We re-roll the location and call it someting vital in the the new location.

That's allot what I suggested earlier. Use the table to determine the severity of the hit the roll the actual location. Didn't seem to over too well.

[Thia Halmades]

Well, I bastardize the table anyway. People use the Hit Loc to determine location/BODY but I let them keep their STUN multipliers. I like it better. Dunno why.

[ghost-angel]

I don't think we can entirely resolve the issue without changing the hit location table. If you are not using sectional armour, then you can define the location as anything which suffers more than usual damage when hit, but if you ARE using sectional armour it probably has to be defined as the groin area.

I agree. Personally I'm for moving it to Location 18, Sectional Armor can cover anything from 3-17, Full Armor 18, games not using Hit Locations don't care.

[mudpyr8]

I'll weigh in and second that getting your junk cut/stabbed/crushed/shot off is going to hurt, but it won't kill you. Taking the same damage to the vitals will.

While we are considering things, bear in mind that if you lose the "thigh" (cut off/whatever... Disabling), you are basically dead in seconds because of the femoral artery. We play it "make a CON roll or die at the end of your next phase" if you take a Disabling wound to the Thigh.

IF you feel it needs to be fixed, change 13 to be Stomach/Lower Guts/Junk (which the x4 or x1 1/2 STUN mod handles very well) and 12 is an 10- (3 in 6, 50% whatever) to be Vitals, otherwise it is more Chest.

I think that solves it nicely.

[Tech]

What's vital? A nice Bacon Lettuce and Tomato sandwich with a glass of orange juice...

What? That's not what you meant?

Oh! Vitals...

That's when you get a grass cut...

Wrong again? Oh well. :D

[Comic]

The shock of severe injury to the genitals can be fatal, though it's relatively uncommon.

Similar injuries to the femoral artery, by comparison, are extremely lethal.

Luckily, you can usually arrange to get both at once, if you work at it.

[PhilFleischmann]

My interpretation: It's the groin. The torso below the waistline. The pelvic bone and the flesh in and around it. It includes the genitalia, the intestines, the femoral arteries. It does not include the heart, lungs, liver, or spleen, which are located in locations 10-12. This part of the body is not part of the stomache area (12), nor is it part of the thighs (14), nor is it part of any other location listed on the chart.

I roll on the hit location chart to determine the location of a hit. It's inconsistent to assume that one roll (13) isn't a location, but a measure of the vitality of the thing you hit, regardless of its location. What if I roll a 13 and I really want to know what location I've hit? Should I roll again? What if I get another 13?

[mudpyr8]

My interpretation: It's the groin. The torso below the waistline. The pelvic bone and the flesh in and around it. It includes the genitalia, the intestines, the femoral arteries. It does not include the heart, lungs, liver, or spleen, which are located in locations 10-12. This part of the body is not part of the stomache area (12), nor is it part of the thighs (14), nor is it part of any other location listed on the chart.

So, you're saying the that most lethal locations to be hit, according to the chart, are the groin and the head? That doesn't make any sense. Being wounded "down there" is survivable. Being shot in the heart isn't. I do understand that you roll on the chart to find out the location, but there are some limitations to the probability distribution of 3d6. If we were using %, all locations could be accounted for cleanly, and perfectly, within that distribution, but those aren't the dice we're using. There is already precedence for rolling a second time (for which side), so I don't think adding a roll is all that much of a stretch.

I know it's funny to see your targets get "hit in the nuts", but the frequency of this location just doesn't reflect how often one is actually "hit in the nuts". 9.7% of the time you score a hit to the 13, 11% to the 12, and 4.5% to the head. I'm fine with the head, but I would rather see closer to a 5% for the vitals.

Perhaps something like this:

3 - Head (face)
4 - Head (brainpan)
5 - Head (neck)
6 - Left Arm*
7 - Hands (1-4 right, 5-6 left)*
8 - Right Arm*
9 - Shoulder (1-4 right, 5-6 left)*
10 - Chest (left)
11 - Chest (right)
12 - Stomach (upper abdomen - "the guts")/ Vitals on Doubles (3.2%)
13 - Stomach (lower abdomen - "the junk")/ Vitals on Doubles (3.2%)
14 - Left Thigh* / Bleeding 5d6 on Doubles if Impairing/Disabling (2.8%)
15 - Legs (1-4 left, 5-6 right)*
16 - Right Thigh* / Bleeding 5d6 on Doubles if Impairing/Disabling (2.8%)
17 - Left Foot*
18 - Right Foot*

* assumes right-handed

This doesn't alter the STUNx for the chart (other than changing around the 14+ section, but that isn't really essential - I just through that in). It does drop the frequency of taking a vital shot from 9.7% to 6.4%, nor does it change the probability of a vitals shot during a High Shot (still 6 + 6 + 1 = 13, and those are doubles). The only issue is that with a Leg Shot (1d6+12), what is the probability of an actual vitals hit? My opinion is that it shouldn't be higher than a High Shot (which is 1/36 or 2.8%), in which case if you roll a 1 during a Leg Shot roll again - on a 1 it's a vitals shot, otherwise it's stomach.

[Comic]

Target relative dominance varies by combat style of the attacker and defender, if we're going to get this detailed.

Boxing has a lot more shots to the 3-12, for example, than kick-boxing. Wrestlers stand so as to reduce the availability of their 9-14 & 16 to hand-to-hand attackers, while if the opponent has a gun.. most formal training focuses on 10-13, but generate a spread that includes all locations at a diminishing rate. And many shooters center their aim on the head, so, skews results.

Maybe we need an Ultimate Hit Locations book? ;)

[mudpyr8]

All of that I think is generally handled by some of the options put forward in Combat Handbook or UMA, such as punches/close weapons being High Shots at no penalty. Other training, such as training to aim for the head, is handled in the system by Penalty Skill Levels, so I think it works pretty well.

One of the things I really like about the Hero hit location system are the specialty shots, since they make determining the impact of cover much easier than nearly any other system.

[casualplayer]

All of that I think is generally handled by some of the options put forward in Combat Handbook or UMA, such as punches/close weapons being High Shots at no penalty. Other training, such as training to aim for the head, is handled in the system by Penalty Skill Levels, so I think it works pretty well.

One of the things I really like about the Hero hit location system are the specialty shots, since they make determining the impact of cover much easier than nearly any other system.

Yeah, last game I went to punch the bad guy, went to roll 2d6+1 for hit location and the table shouted me down and said to roll 3d6. I said "Whattaya thnk? I'm gonna punch him in the toe?" :nonp:

Fun game, but way too influenced by D&D mentality and love of roll-playing.

[nexus]

Yeah, last game I went to punch the bad guy, went to roll 2d6+1 for hit location and the table shouted me down and said to roll 3d6. I said "Whattaya thnk? I'm gonna punch him in the toe?" :nonp:


Yeah, that's kind of bugged me too. Generally we either:

Don't use the hit location table unless sectional armor is involved

Assume Strikes are High or Low or whatever shots according to special effects

Roll the hit location let that determine what the Strike's sfx is. If you roll a lower shot then it's a kick or some usual has happened if possible.

[PhilFleischmann]

So, you're saying the that most lethal locations to be hit, according to the chart, are the groin and the head?
No, that's not at all what i'm saying.


Being wounded "down there" is survivable. Being shot in the heart isn't.
Either or both can be "survivable" in the HERO System. Either or both can be fatal in the HERO System.


I do understand that you roll on the chart to find out the location, but there are some limitations to the probability distribution of 3d6. If we were using %, all locations could be accounted for cleanly, and perfectly, within that distribution, but those aren't the dice we're using.
There are "limitations to the probability distribution" no matter what dice you decide to use. That has nothing to do with it. It ought to be possible to hit someone in the groin. If it's not in location 13, then where is it? It's not part of the stomach. It's not part of the thighs. It's not part of the head, hands, arms, shoulders, chest, legs, or feet.


There is already precedence for rolling a second time (for which side), so I don't think adding a roll is all that much of a stretch.
But the book fails to provide for such a roll. There is no secondary table to roll on to determine the location after you've rolled a 13.


I know it's funny to see your targets get "hit in the nuts", ...
"groin" is not the same as "nuts."

I believe this goes back to 1st Ed Champions where whoever it was who wrote the original Hit Location Chart was a bit too embarrassed to write "crotch," so he used "vitals" as a euphemism.

[gojira]

Vitals: important stuff. Nintendo DS, music collection, etc.

Player: "I catch him with a left hook"
GM: "He eels over. It was a fluke but there he was, Lying on the deck, flat as a mackerel. Kelpless"

That was probably a left hook to the iPod right there....

[Hugh Neilson]

Yeah, last game I went to punch the bad guy, went to roll 2d6+1 for hit location and the table shouted me down and said to roll 3d6. I said "Whattaya thnk? I'm gonna punch him in the toe?" :nonp:

Fun game, but way too influenced by D&D mentality and love of roll-playing.

There was a suggested rule change in 4e (I think 4e UMA) that punches automatically be high shots (location 3 - 13) and kicks automatically be low shots (locations 9 - 19, with 19 being feet) to deal with this. It's a pretty simple fix, although I've never mathed out the impact on average stun multiples, etc. to assess whether it's unbalancing in any way.

[pinecone]

There was a suggested rule change in 4e (I think 4e UMA) that punches automatically be high shots (location 3 - 13) and kicks automatically be low shots (locations 9 - 19, with 19 being feet) to deal with this. It's a pretty simple fix, although I've never mathed out the impact on average stun multiples, etc. to assess whether it's unbalancing in any way.

To some extent it's a bit of a "style" thing...a big circling kick style would be able to use 3D6, or a High shot (2D6+1) I guess you can "explain" a punch to the thigh or shin etc as "He tried to kick you, you jumped out of the way...but instead of smashing his nose you slammed him in his right, ummmm, Ankle" :)

I treat the "Vitals" as both the Groin, and all other extra ouchy bits, like the throat or the heart....a killing attack to the groin would most likely kill ya...from blood loss, lots of veins and arterys near about.....

[PhilFleischmann]

Another place in the rulebooks that supports the idea of 13 being the groin is in the Fantasy HERO sectional Armor Chart, and the Barding Chart: A breastplate (which covers the heart and lungs) does not cover location 13, but a skirtplate does.

But that's somewhat beside the point. We can site rules precedents indefinitely. The fact is the rules are inconsistent on this matter. I choose to make an interpretation that is, IMO, consistent. Namely, that the hit location chart contains locations. It's not the hit vitality chart. If you want a hit vitality chart, we have one of those, too:


1d6 Roll Hit Vitality STUNx
1-2 Not Vital x1
3 Slightly Vital x2
4 Moderately Vital x3
5 Vital x4
6 Very Vital x5

Also known as the regular STUN Multiple.

As far as I can tell, there have been three interpretations of location 13, discussed here, and the previous threads where this issue has been brought up:

1. "You got hit in the 'nads, dude! Heheheheh." I hope we can all dismiss this one as silly.

2. It's the groin - a *location* on the body that isn't included in any of the other *locations* on the hit *location* chart. The area of the body that would be covered by a pair of tighty-whiteys. Below the waistline, above the leg joints. It contains some very delicate parts, that can be extremely painful and/or dangerous to be hit there, the genitalia of course, as well as the intestines, and the femoral arteries, where they come fairly close to the skin.

3. It's not any specific location, it's any vital organ that would be especially dangerous if damaged, it could be any major organ in the chest cavity or lower abdomen, or a major artery anywhere on the body (possibly excluding the head and neck).

In case it wasn't clear from my earlier post(s), my interpretation is 2, not 1.

[pinecone]

Another place in the rulebooks that supports the idea of 13 being the groin is in the Fantasy HERO sectional Armor Chart, and the Barding Chart: A breastplate (which covers the heart and lungs) does not cover location 13, but a skirtplate does.

But that's somewhat beside the point. We can site rules precedents indefinitely. The fact is the rules are inconsistent on this matter. I choose to make an interpretation that is, IMO, consistent. Namely, that the hit location chart contains locations. It's not the hit vitality chart. If you want a hit vitality chart, we have one of those, too:


1d6 Roll Hit Vitality STUNx
1-2 Not Vital x1
3 Slightly Vital x2
4 Moderately Vital x3
5 Vital x4
6 Very Vital x5

Also known as the regular STUN Multiple.

As far as I can tell, there have been three interpretations of location 13, discussed here, and the previous threads where this issue has been brought up:

1. "You got hit in the 'nads, dude! Heheheheh." I hope we can all dismiss this one as silly.

2. It's the groin - a *location* on the body that isn't included in any of the other *locations* on the hit *location* chart. The area of the body that would be covered by a pair of tighty-whiteys. Below the waistline, above the leg joints. It contains some very delicate parts, that can be extremely painful and/or dangerous to be hit there, the genitalia of course, as well as the intestines, and the femoral arteries, where they come fairly close to the skin.

3. It's not any specific location, it's any vital organ that would be especially dangerous if damaged, it could be any major organ in the chest cavity or lower abdomen, or a major artery anywhere on the body (possibly excluding the head and neck).

In case it wasn't clear from my earlier post(s), my interpretation is 2, not 1.

I use 3, but the nards are a vital area, so let the humor roll on unabated!

[Hugh Neilson]

But that's somewhat beside the point. We can site rules precedents indefinitely. The fact is the rules are inconsistent on this matter. I choose to make an interpretation that is, IMO, consistent. Namely, that the hit location chart contains locations. It's not the hit vitality chart. If you want a hit vitality chart, we have one of those, too:


1d6 Roll Hit Vitality STUNx
1-2 Not Vital x1
3 Slightly Vital x2
4 Moderately Vital x3
5 Vital x4
6 Very Vital x5

Also known as the regular STUN Multiple.

But we have lost the "vital" aspect of the area in that there is no change to the BOD damage inflicted.

[ghost-angel]

There was a suggested rule change in 4e (I think 4e UMA) that punches automatically be high shots (location 3 - 13) and kicks automatically be low shots (locations 9 - 19, with 19 being feet) to deal with this. It's a pretty simple fix, although I've never mathed out the impact on average stun multiples, etc. to assess whether it's unbalancing in any way.

5E UMA has the same suggestions as Optional Rules for High and Low shots, each Art in the book has suggestions for which maneuvers are High and which are Low.

[SCUBA Hero]

Vitals: important stuff. Nintendo DS, music collection, etc.

Player: "I catch him with a left hook"
GM: "He eels over. It was a fluke but there he was, Lying on the deck, flat as a mackerel. Kelpless"Forget the Cods, Gil, this guy's gonna need a Sturgeon...

[casualplayer]

There was a suggested rule change in 4e (I think 4e UMA) that punches automatically be high shots (location 3 - 13) and kicks automatically be low shots (locations 9 - 19, with 19 being feet) to deal with this. It's a pretty simple fix, although I've never mathed out the impact on average stun multiples, etc. to assess whether it's unbalancing in any way.

Yeah, I know. It's one of those house rules that I forget is house and just figure as a given, especially since I taught Champions/HERO System to the GM in the game I mentioned. Always bugged me to have dice say a punch landed anywhere below upper thigh, at least when we're talking about human on human melee. 2d6+1 is almost always a 7 or 8, which isn't exactly advantageous.

I wonder what the advantage Variable Hit Location would be worth? Would it be worth + 1/4 to be able to modify the hit location roll +/-1?

[Outsider]

There was a suggested rule change in 4e (I think 4e UMA) that punches automatically be high shots (location 3 - 13) and kicks automatically be low shots (locations 9 - 19, with 19 being feet) to deal with this. It's a pretty simple fix, although I've never mathed out the impact on average stun multiples, etc. to assess whether it's unbalancing in any way.

Regular/High/Low Effects on STUN & BODY

Regular Shot (3D6) (roll : Odds : B/S Mult : B*Odds : S*Odds)
_3 : _1 : 2.0/5 : _2.0 : __5
_4 : _3 : 2.0/5 : _6.0 : _15
_5 : _6 : 2.0/5 : 12.0 : _30
_6 : 10 : 0.5/1 : _5.0 : _10
_7 : 15 : 0.5/2 : _7.5 : _30
_8 : 21 : 0.5/2 : 10.5 : _42
_9 : 25 : 1.0/3 : 25.0 : _75
10 : 27 : 1.0/3 : 27.0 : _81
11 : 27 : 1.0/3 : 27.0 : _81
12 : 25 : 1.0/4 : 25.0 : 100
13 : 21 : 1.5/4 : 31.5 : _84
14 : 15 : 1.0/2 : 15.0 : _30
15 : 10 : 0.5/2 : _5.0 : _20
16 : _6 : 0.5/2 : _3.0 : _12
17 : _3 : 0.5/1 : _1.5 : __3
18 : _1 : 0.5/1 : _0.5 : __1

Total Body in 216 rolls : 203.5 : Avg = 0.933
Total Stun in 216 rolls : 619.0 : Avg = 2.866

High Shot (2D6+1)
_3 : 1 : 2.0/5 : 2.0 : _5
_4 : 2 : 2.0/5 : 4.0 : 10
_5 : 3 : 2.0/5 : 6.0 : 15
_6 : 4 : 0.5/1 : 2.0 : _4
_7 : 5 : 0.5/2 : 2.5 : 10
_8 : 6 : 0.5/2 : 3.0 : 12
_9 : 5 : 1.0/3 : 5.0 : 15
10 : 4 : 1.0/3 : 4.0 : 16
11 : 3 : 1.0/3 : 3.0 : _9
12 : 2 : 1.0/4 : 2.0 : _8
13 : 1 : 1.5/4 : 1.5 : _4

Total Body in 36 Rolls : _35.0 : Avg = 0.972
Total Stun in 36 Rolls : 108.0 : Avg = 3.000


Low Shot (2D6+7*) *19 counts as an 18
_9 : 1 : 1.0/3 : 1.0 : _3
10 : 2 : 1.0/3 : 2.0 : _6
11 : 3 : 1.0/3 : 3.0 : _9
12 : 4 : 1.0/4 : 4.0 : 16
13 : 5 : 1.5/4 : 7.5 : 20
14 : 6 : 1.0/2 : 6.0 : 12
15 : 5 : 0.5/2 : 2.5 : 10
16 : 4 : 0.5/2 : 2.0 : _8
17 : 3 : 0.5/1 : 1.5 : _3
18 : 3 : 0.5/1 : 1.5 : _3

Total Body in 36 Rolls : _31.0 : Avg = 0.86
Total Stun in 36 Rolls : 90.0 : Avg = 2.50


So a high shot is the best, then a regular, then a low.






(snip) 2d6+1 is almost always a 7 or 8, which isn't exactly advantageous. (snip)


The odds of getting a less than impressive 1 or 2 Stun Mult location on a High Shot are only slightly higher than with a Regular Shot, and your odds of getting 5*Stun 'fight ender' are much, much higher.


Regular
10/216 of a 5* : _4.6%
46/216 of a 4* : 21.3%
79/216 of a 3* : 36.6%
67/216 of a 2* : 31.0%
14/216 of a 1* : _6.5%

High
_6/36 of a 5* : 16.7%
_3/36 of a 4* : _8.3%
12/36 of a 3* : 33.3%
11/36 of a 2* : 30.5%
_4/36 of a 1* : 11.1%

Low
_0/36 of a 5* : _0.0%
_9/36 of a 4* : 25.0%
_6/36 of a 3* : 16.7%
15/36 of a 2* : 41.7%
_6/36 of a 1* : 16.7%





PS : On topic : I came into HERO system mostly through FH, so I'd vote for 'vitals' being the nexus of nerves, major arteries, etc associated with the 'tighty whitey' area. Seemed pretty obvious from how the FH sectional armor was layed out.

[Kenn]

Always bugged me to have dice say a punch landed anywhere below upper thigh, at least when we're talking about human on human melee. 2d6+1 is almost always a 7 or 8, which isn't exactly advantageous.

I guess that means the person being punched is trying to shield himself with his arms.

[Kenn]

I believe this goes back to 1st Ed Champions where whoever it was who wrote the original Hit Location Chart was a bit too embarrassed to write "crotch," so he used "vitals" as a euphemism.

I agree that it was a euphemism. But I wonder if it was embarrassment, or fear of groups that were targeting role-playing games.

[Comic]

In a rip-roaring, acrobatic slugfest, with leaping over crates, running on tabletops, vaulting, swinging, backflips and such -- the kinds of fights Batman or Spiderman have -- the Regular chart seems fitting.

You really could end up punching Batman in the ankle. And then you'd wake up in a prison hospital.

It's those flat-footed fistics who fit the High chart.. and unadvantageous as it is.. that's fitting too, in its way.

[casualplayer]

I guess that means the person being punched is trying to shield himself with his arms.

Which is highly appropriate. If you can, get out of the way; if you can't, take the shot to the arm. Plus, emulating the cinematic style, people get wounded in the arm all the time.

[PhilFleischmann]

I agree that it was a euphemism. But I wonder if it was embarrassment, or fear of groups that were targeting role-playing games.
Yes. That could have easily been an important factor. I remember those days. I had people personally telling me that by playing Dungeons & Dragons, I was practicing Satanism.

And re: High- and Low- shots, yes, two humans standing on the ground punching at each other should probably always be high shots, but if they're flying, they could hit or be hit anywhere, or if they're in water, or both lying on the ground instead of standing. Likewise if they're both doing acrobatic maneuvers, or mixing their punches with kicks. The kicker could easily be punched in the leg or foot during the kick, before, or after, whether he hits or misses.

[Maur]

Getting hit in the 13 is very dangerous if you expand it slightly from just the groin itself to also include the lower abdominal region. You can rupture major veins and arteries that carry blood to/from the legs, hit the kidneys, the lower spine, the intestinal track, etc... which are all dangerous things to have hit. Puncturing the intestines allows the bacteria that reside in there to get into the body and cause problems elsewhere and also aren't easy to repair as a doctor would have to find every little hole that a knife or bullet would put through them.

[mudpyr8]

Absolutely, but getting hit in the heart is equally as dangerous, and either it is part of 13 or it is somewhere else on this chart of locations.

[Thia Halmades]

Yes. That could have easily been an important factor. I remember those days. I had people personally telling me that by playing Dungeons & Dragons, I was practicing Satanism.

You mean, that Mind Bondage spell I cast on my father was just the result of hype and an overactive imagination!? This explains why I never got a pwny.

[Outsider]

Or it is a high damage roll in chest location.

Location multiples would then represent increased odds of hitting something really important in the given location.


Just what does a high damage roll vs a low one represent?

[Thia Halmades]

Or it is a high damage roll in chest location.

Location multiples would then represent increased odds of hitting something really important in the given location.


Just what does a high damage roll vs a low one represent?

That nothing is guaranteed, that's all. Now we're getting really esoteric, but as I can tell you, as ANB can tell you, as any martial artist on this board can tell you, there are a hundred little things that go into a single strike; damage represents the variables that drive those hundred little things. People won't don't like to roll damage use Standard Effect. I'm a damage roller, though, always have been. Except when playing BattleTech.

[Outsider]

I come from more of a firearms background, where every shot at a given range with a given gun is more or less the same except in regards to precisely where it hits.

Of course, this has also led me to consider using a hybrid of standard and rolled damage, at least in regards to firearms. STD damage determines armor penetration (ie if your armor is rated as 7 rPD (stops rifle fire) it STOPS RIFLE FIRE, at least if it activates. If it fails, or you are wearing armor too light to stop what is being fired at you, -then- you have damage rolled, otherwise the shot does standard (and doesnt penetrate your armor, body-wise, at least)

[Thia Halmades]

I come from more of a firearms background, where every shot at a given range with a given gun is more or less the same except in regards to precisely where it hits.

Of course, this has also led me to consider using a hybrid of standard and rolled damage, at least in regards to firearms. STD damage determines armor penetration (ie if your armor is rated as 7 rPD (stops rifle fire) it STOPS RIFLE FIRE, at least if it activates. If it fails, or you are wearing armor too light to stop what is being fired at you, -then- you have damage rolled, otherwise the shot does standard (and doesnt penetrate your armor, body-wise, at least)

New thread senses... tingling!!

[Kenn]

your armor is rated as 7 rPD

Are you gonna drink from that cup?;)

[AmadanNaBriona]

I come from more of a firearms background, where every shot at a given range with a given gun is more or less the same except in regards to precisely where it hits.

Of course, this has also led me to consider using a hybrid of standard and rolled damage, at least in regards to firearms. STD damage determines armor penetration (ie if your armor is rated as 7 rPD (stops rifle fire) it STOPS RIFLE FIRE, at least if it activates. If it fails, or you are wearing armor too light to stop what is being fired at you, -then- you have damage rolled, otherwise the shot does standard (and doesnt penetrate your armor, body-wise, at least)
This perspective is what's led me to using the optional Crit rules.
Because, yeah, a bullet has fairly predicable penetration ASSUMING a solid hit.

Add in angles of deflection and things get tetchy. Same thing with wound effects. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. A shot which severs the aorta is gonna be more lethal than one that misses it and hits the clavicle on it's way through, while another in the same 8 ring circle might be a through and through that doesn't do much but cut meat.

HTH has even more variables.
Random damage works for me, tho if I was gonna retool the weapons from the ground up I'd probably do missile weapons with some Piercing to reflect this difference.

[SCUBA Hero]

You mean, that Mind Bondage spell I cast on my father was just the result of hype and an overactive imagination!? This explains why I never got a pwny.No no. You just didn't roll enough effect... probably EGO +20 or +30, depending...

[dsatow]

These have undoubtedly already been mentioned, but:

The 13 location being the groin was originally deduced from fantasy hero armor types covering that location.

The Short Vest Armor type that covers 9-13 makes me think of this armor (see http://store.andersonarmor.com/servlet/-strse-64/Bulletproof%2C-Body-Armor%2C-Vests%2C/Detail). Its listed as a full coverage military vest with pockets.

Lastly, the groin section is considered a vital area. People who take damage there are rushed into the emergency rooms mainly due to possible rupture and bleeding of the body's digestive and waste systems. Because of the lack of bone to protect these organs, as the heart and lungs have in the rib cage, I think is why the damage was upped.

<opinion section>
In any case, as a GM you should do whatever makes the most sense in the drama of the game and through realism out the door. While its funny to say a villian hit in the 13 has his private parts blown off grabbing thier crotch in a fetal position and dying, it may be more dramatic to say to he got hit in the heart and blood come up his mouths. Depending on the villain, one may be more apropriate than the other. A serial rapist may be better killed by a crotch shot, but that childhood friend turned murderer might be better served dying with innocence in his eyes and blood bubbling out of his mouth as he tries to say sorry.

IMHO, the HERO system really is about playing HEROes as main characters in a story than generic characters in a setting. I believe this whether they are starting heroes or experienced ones.

[Lucius]

"Vitals" is not a euphemism. Vitals means vitals.

Lucius Alexander

Otherwise, the palindromedary wouldn't even HAVE vitals.

[Mike W]

How do you define the hit location "vitals" in your game?

There seems to be a generally held view that the vitals equal the groin. But I can find no basis for this in the rules. Perhaps someone can point out where in the rules vitals are defined?

Personally I have always felt that saying the vitals is the groin is rather silly. As long as I have been playing Hero System / Champions (early 1980s) my groups have always defined vitals to be more than just the groin. The "chest" is any part of the upper trunk of the body except for vital organs (for instance, the heart). The "stomach" is any part of the abdomen except for the major arteries and or other areas likely to cause a greatly increased chance of fatal wounds. Thus we have always defined the "vitals" to be a area from the heart down through the central torso and abdomen where vital organs are located (including the groin). In our game a vitals hit is generally considered to be a heart hit.

How do others define the vitals?

I think it depends on the angle: groin, kidneys, solar plexis, maybe a shot just under the ribs. We usually play Champs so hit locations aren't a big deal.