Return of the blimp/zepellin

[Curufea]

.

[Tigereye]

Cool!

The Zeppelin Company has also been back for a while, manufacturing several large blimp-sized Zeppelins for air touring, advertising and scientific research:

http://www.zeppelin-nt.com/index_e.htm

Still, it's good to know other people are beginning to rediscover the merits of these magnificent (and more importantly, fuel-efficient) aircraft.

[tkdguy]

Cool. I've been a fan of Zeppelins since I GMed Castle Falkenstein over a decade ago. I miss that campaign.

[Spence]

I would love to see it. But I'm not getting my hopes up in the near future. There are too many roadblocks right now. Mostly political IMO. But there.

[CorPse]

Yes...

Lighter than air ships are a really, really great idea. Unfortunately there's that famous disaster that everyone knows about.



Stupid Hindenburg.

[Curufea]

Yes...

Lighter than air ships are a really, really great idea. Unfortunately there's that famous disaster that everyone knows about.



Stupid Hindenburg.

Hmm, yes - How many people died in Zepellins? And how many have died in commercial jets?

Oh well, I suppose "classic video footage" is worth a thousand "facts".

[Comic]

Now, let's do be fair.

Lighter-than-air craft are also slow.

Who wants to take a full day traveling in a comfortable, roomy cabin with breathtaking views to cross the country when instead they can wait in a crowded airport for ten hours, zip across the country in three hours at supersonic speeds in a narrow, confining, crowded cattlecar of an airplane, and then spend another ten hours to disembark, get their luggage, and find their way through the maze of airport shuttles, parking, rentals and so on.

Okay, so I exaggerate about the ten hour parts.

[Spence]

Now, let's do be fair.

Lighter-than-air craft are also slow.

Who wants to take a full day traveling in a comfortable, roomy cabin with breathtaking views to cross the country when instead they can wait in a crowded airport for ten hours, zip across the country in three hours at supersonic speeds in a narrow, confining, crowded cattlecar of an airplane, and then spend another ten hours to disembark, get their luggage, and find their way through the maze of airport shuttles, parking, rentals and so on.

Okay, so I exaggerate about the ten hour parts.

Not to mention that if you are really lucky you can be seated next to a overweight woman who believes bathing is optional and has a birth control failure that screams for the entire time it is on the aircraft (gate to flight to gate). Yep, air travel is soooo wonderful.

[CorPse]

Hmm, yes - How many people died in Zepellins? And how many have died in commercial jets?

Oh well, I suppose "classic video footage" is worth a thousand "facts".

"Oh, The Humanity!"

[CorPse]

I've also heard of plans to use these sorts of craft to haul huge loads of cargo... probably cheaper than an 18-wheeler per unit.

[Spence]

I've also heard of plans to use these sorts of craft to haul huge loads of cargo... probably cheaper than an 18-wheeler per unit.

They probably are. But of course you have to overcome politicians and idiot activists who are against things on general principle before we will actually see any. ;)

[Curufea]

That's easy - get a celebrity to endorse it. Everyone worships celebrities and believes any stray opinion they ever have on anything.

[Spence]

That's easy - get a celebrity to endorse it. Everyone worships celebrities and believes any stray opinion they ever have on anything.

Or we could include some steroids and a dog fighting ring and the "professional" sports types would be all over it.

[TheQuestionMan]

I wuv you man!


Airships of the Future ROCK!!!


QM

[Old Man]

The "potentially revolutionary Control of Static Heaviness system" is called a ballonet and was a standard component of semirigid airships in the late 19th century.

Popular Mechanics has been trumpeting the Return of the Zeppelin for at least two decades now. I'm all for it, but please excuse me if I take this particular report with a pillar of salt.

[Tom Carman]

Now, let's do be fair.

Lighter-than-air craft are also slow.

Who wants to take a full day traveling in a comfortable, roomy cabin with breathtaking views to cross the country when instead they can wait in a crowded airport for ten hours, zip across the country in three hours at supersonic speeds in a narrow, confining, crowded cattlecar of an airplane, and then spend another ten hours to disembark, get their luggage, and find their way through the maze of airport shuttles, parking, rentals and so on.

Okay, so I exaggerate about the ten hour parts.

Hmmm... Disney Air Cruise Lines.

"A leisurely cruise down the Eastern seaboard, eight hours from Lakehurst to the Disney World Skyport, then express bus service to your resort. A relaxing sightseeing tour to help you unwind as you start your vacation!"

[Psybolt]

That's easy - get a celebrity to endorse it. Everyone worships celebrities and believes any stray opinion they ever have on anything.

What is Robert Plant doing these days?

[SSgt Baloo]

"Oh, The Humanity!"

Even better!

http://www.herogames.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26844&stc=1&d=1200870160

[CorPse]

And THAT'S why I never ride in hydrogen-filled giant sea mammals!

[starblaze]

Now, let's do be fair.

Lighter-than-air craft are also slow.

Who wants to take a full day traveling in a comfortable, roomy cabin with breathtaking views to cross the country when instead they can wait in a crowded airport for ten hours, zip across the country in three hours at supersonic speeds in a narrow, confining, crowded cattlecar of an airplane, and then spend another ten hours to disembark, get their luggage, and find their way through the maze of airport shuttles, parking, rentals and so on.

Okay, so I exaggerate about the ten hour parts.

You didn't by any chance travel by air around the holidays last year?

[Spence]

You didn't by any chance travel by air around the holidays last year?

If he didn't, I did.

He left out the obliviots (love that word) traveling with kids. You know the ones that say "hey we're traveling on a holiday with children, so let's leave the small compact and light weight stroller at the house" and instead take the "1 million ton mega impress the neighbors look at me" stroller. The three wheeled one that uses full sized bicycle wheels. And when the person at the desk asks all parents traveling with children under 14 to come to the front so she can count them and get a estimated weight. Why, you are an adult with children, so just ignore her because that twinky you are inhaling is much more important than actually getting on the plane.

God, it was a nightmare of idiots. If you want to impress the in laws with an SUV sized stroller, check it. You can impress them when you get there. The regular small stroller will fit in the side pouch.

I am not exaggerating. The flight was already late getting in from the east (storms and such). Then when we could have been boarding we wasted an entire HOUR while the ticket counter tried to get the idiots with kids rounded up and on the plane. They needed to see how much weight so they could determine how many standbys they could take.

Then we discovered, as I was boarding I looked at the strollers, that the average stroller is no longer small and portable. It is huge and weighs more than the Titanic. From my window I could see them trying to load them, some required TWO people to lift. They were actually pulling off luggage to make room. Unbelievable. I expect the industry to impose size limits to strollers that can be used up to the gate. Especially on smaller aircraft.

All in all, my Little Rock flight was delayed 1 hour due to weather and 55 minutes due to birth control failure.

My Denver connection was delayed 1.5 hours due to weather and a little over an hour due to the same stupidity.

All in all due to the inability of the average idiot to pay attention I landed in Seattle at around 1130pm vice 7pm. If it had been just weather delays it woudl have been 9-9:30pm

Of course I also got the privilege of listening to the screamer in the next seat for the entire duration of the flight. One would think the parent would discover a pacifier or something, or maybe the kid would have passed out after the first hour of constant screaming.

Grrrrr.....

[Midas]

Yes...

Lighter than air ships are a really, really great idea. Unfortunately there's that famous disaster that everyone knows about.



Stupid Hindenburg.

The problem is, the Hindenburg is only the most well known disaster. The things had a tendency to fall apart every time they were caught in a storm (I exaggerate, somewhat - but the fact remains that every time somebody built one that was more rugged than the last failure, it unfailingly went Titanic).

Here is what Wiki says re "airship:"


Eventually the US Navy lost all three American-built rigid airships to accidents. USS Shenandoah on a poorly planned publicity flight flew into a severe thunderstorm over Noble County, Ohio on 3 September 1925. It broke into pieces, killing 14 of her crew. USS Akron was caught in a severe storm and flown into the surface of the sea off the shore of New Jersey on April 3, 1933. It carried no life boats and few life vests, so 73 of her 76-men crew died from drowning or hypothermia. USS Macon was lost after suffering a structural failure off the shore of Point Sur, California on 12 February 1935. The failure caused a loss of gas, which was made much worse when the aircraft was driven over pressure height causing it to lose too much helium to maintain flight.[28] Only 2 of her 83-man crew died in the crash thanks to the inclusion of life jackets and inflatable rafts after the Akron disaster...

Are the ones they are building now more all weather?

BTW, I like Zeppelins. I've always wanted to run the COC campaign Brotherhood of the Beast, just because the villains get an airship as their HQ. :thumbup:

Midas

[st barbara]

Thow in the los of the British R101 and the French "Dixmude" and you can see that the loss of "Hindenberg" was simply the most public and spectacular of a series of airship disasters; the last straw as it were !

[AmadanNaBriona]

We've come quite a ways since 1935.

I'm pretty sure we can do a better airship these days.

(The Macon's hangar is a local landmark :D)

[Markdoc]

We've come quite a ways since 1935.

I'm pretty sure we can do a better airship these days.

We can, but simple physics tells us that lighter than air craft are always going to be structurally weaker (and larger in section) than heavier than air craft. That places a limit on rough weather tolerance we can only partially offset.

OTOH, lighter than air craft have greater endurance : imagine if there's a storm over Chicago. A jet has the choice of making a bumpy approach or diverting elsewhere. A zeppelin could "hang around" until the storm passed by.

Imagine the phone call "Hi honey, we're going to be a little delayed because of the weather. Yeah, I know. It's OK here right now but the captain says it'll probably be a couple of days before we're cleared for approach. Yeah, I know - but even if we diverted to Denver, it'd take a day and then another day home for the train. Probably best to wait 'til it blows over." :D

cheers, Mark

[Kristopher]

If he didn't, I did.

He left out the obliviots (love that word) traveling with kids. You know the ones that say "hey we're traveling on a holiday with children, so let's leave the small compact and light weight stroller at the house" and instead take the "1 million ton mega impress the neighbors look at me" stroller. The three wheeled one that uses full sized bicycle wheels. And when the person at the desk asks all parents traveling with children under 14 to come to the front so she can count them and get a estimated weight. Why, you are an adult with children, so just ignore her because that twinky you are inhaling is much more important than actually getting on the plane.

God, it was a nightmare of idiots. If you want to impress the in laws with an SUV sized stroller, check it. You can impress them when you get there. The regular small stroller will fit in the side pouch.

I am not exaggerating. The flight was already late getting in from the east (storms and such). Then when we could have been boarding we wasted an entire HOUR while the ticket counter tried to get the idiots with kids rounded up and on the plane. They needed to see how much weight so they could determine how many standbys they could take.

Then we discovered, as I was boarding I looked at the strollers, that the average stroller is no longer small and portable. It is huge and weighs more than the Titanic. From my window I could see them trying to load them, some required TWO people to lift. They were actually pulling off luggage to make room. Unbelievable. I expect the industry to impose size limits to strollers that can be used up to the gate. Especially on smaller aircraft.

All in all, my Little Rock flight was delayed 1 hour due to weather and 55 minutes due to birth control failure.

My Denver connection was delayed 1.5 hours due to weather and a little over an hour due to the same stupidity.

All in all due to the inability of the average idiot to pay attention I landed in Seattle at around 1130pm vice 7pm. If it had been just weather delays it woudl have been 9-9:30pm

Of course I also got the privilege of listening to the screamer in the next seat for the entire duration of the flight. One would think the parent would discover a pacifier or something, or maybe the kid would have passed out after the first hour of constant screaming.

Grrrrr.....

After the first hour, all of my control would be gone, and I would summon an attendant and tell her that something was wrong with the plane. When she asked me to elaborate, I would say "Don't you hear that terrible screaming noise? There must be a leak in the pressure seal somewhere."

And people wonder why I don't want kids.

[Teflon Billy]

After the first hour, all of my control would be gone, and I would summon an attendant and tell her that something was wrong with the plane. When she asked me to elaborate, I would say "Don't you hear that terrible screaming noise? There must be a leak in the pressure seal somewhere."

And people wonder why I don't want kids.And you would have been better served keeping your mouth shut and ignoring it like the rest of those on the plane.

Air travel is NOT that hard. Shut your mouth, wear comfortable easy to remove shoes, put EVERYTHING in your carry on when you go through the x-ray machines, except for your laptop (which you put in one more plastic bin on the conveyer), and get on the plane ignoring everything going on around you.

Do anything else and you are only inflicting misery on your fellow passengers, YOU are not that important.

TB

[Markdoc]

And you would have been better served keeping your mouth shut and ignoring it like the rest of those on the plane.

Air travel is NOT that hard. Shut your mouth, wear comfortable easy to remove shoes, put EVERYTHING in your carry on when you go through the x-ray machines, except for your laptop (which you put in one more plastic bin on the conveyer), and get on the plane ignoring everything going on around you.

Do anything else and you are only inflicting misery on your fellow passengers, YOU are not that important.

TB

Actually Kristopher was complaining about the people who inflict misery on other travellers. And he's right.

I travel a lot (I was in Goteborg in Sweden last week, I'm going to les Diablerets in Switzerland tomorrow, my next month's travel includes Seattle, Palamaner, Hampi and Bangalore). I AM that one-bag, belt-off, loose-shoes, computer-ready-for-the-bin guy who knows where he's stashed his tickets and passport, who goes through security in 30 seconds.

When I finally get to the front of the queue.

There are far too many people traveling with kids that they either will not or cannot control - to everybody else's discomfort. They load themselves down with all sorts of kiddie crap that's strewn over the aisles and floor, they can't find everyone's tickets, they take enormous strollers that can't be folded into standard luggage lockers which delay the flight while staff try to load them, they have 3 bags each and don't see why they can't take them onto the plane, they carry formula into security and then spend ages arguing with the security checkers that they should be allowed to take it onto the plane, despite the giant "no liquids" signs (and I've seen one hurl it to the floor, leaving formula splattered everywhere - including on other people), etc etc.

THESE people make air travel far slower and less pleasant than it could be. Not everyone with kids falls into this category. But the majority of unpleasant flight experiences I've had in the last many years featured people traveling with kids to a greater or lesser degree - and it shows a basic disregard of other people on the part of the parents.

cheers, Mark

[Spence]

After the first hour, all of my control would be gone, and I would summon an attendant and tell her that something was wrong with the plane. When she asked me to elaborate, I would say "Don't you hear that terrible screaming noise? There must be a leak in the pressure seal somewhere."

And people wonder why I don't want kids.

I don't..wonder that is ;)

The big problem is it wouldn't help. At all. For some reason as soon as an obliviate wanders in with a kid, they immediately get a pass and are no longer required to extend any microscopic bit of courtesy to anyone.....


Actually Kristopher was complaining about the people who inflict misery on other travellers. And he's right.

I travel a lot (I was in Goteborg in Sweden last week, I'm going to les Diablerets in Switzerland tomorrow, my next month's travel includes Seattle, Palamaner, Hampi and Bangalore). I AM that one-bag, belt-off, loose-shoes, computer-ready-for-the-bin guy who knows where he's stashed his tickets and passport, who goes through security in 30 seconds.

When I finally get to the front of the queue.

There are far too many people traveling with kids that they either will not or cannot control - to everybody else's discomfort. They load themselves down with all sorts of kiddie crap that's strewn over the aisles and floor, they can't find everyone's tickets, they take enormous strollers that can't be folded into standard luggage lockers which delay the flight while staff try to load them, they have 3 bags each and don't see why they can't take them onto the plane, they carry formula into security and then spend ages arguing with the security checkers that they should be allowed to take it onto the plane, despite the giant "no liquids" signs (and I've seen one hurl it to the floor, leaving formula splattered everywhere - including on other people), etc etc.

THESE people make air travel far slower and less pleasant than it could be. Not everyone with kids falls into this category. But the majority of unpleasant flight experiences I've had in the last many years featured people traveling with kids to a greater or lesser degree - and it shows a basic disregard of other people on the part of the parents.

cheers, Mark

As a fellow "one bag and through security in 30secs" traveler I must say, very well said :thumbup:

[Kristopher]

And you would have been better served keeping your mouth shut and ignoring it like the rest of those on the plane.

Air travel is NOT that hard. Shut your mouth, wear comfortable easy to remove shoes, put EVERYTHING in your carry on when you go through the x-ray machines, except for your laptop (which you put in one more plastic bin on the conveyer), and get on the plane ignoring everything going on around you.

Do anything else and you are only inflicting misery on your fellow passengers, YOU are not that important.

Wow, what brought that on? How do I become the target of your rant against your fellow air travellers, after posting a comment about people who can't keep their damn spawn under control?

[Clonus]

I've also heard of plans to use these sorts of craft to haul huge loads of cargo... probably cheaper than an 18-wheeler per unit.

Not without a good tailwind.

[Kristopher]

Actually Kristopher was complaining about the people who inflict misery on other travellers. And he's right.

I travel a lot (I was in Goteborg in Sweden last week, I'm going to les Diablerets in Switzerland tomorrow, my next month's travel includes Seattle, Palamaner, Hampi and Bangalore). I AM that one-bag, belt-off, loose-shoes, computer-ready-for-the-bin guy who knows where he's stashed his tickets and passport, who goes through security in 30 seconds.

When I finally get to the front of the queue.

There are far too many people traveling with kids that they either will not or cannot control - to everybody else's discomfort. They load themselves down with all sorts of kiddie crap that's strewn over the aisles and floor, they can't find everyone's tickets, they take enormous strollers that can't be folded into standard luggage lockers which delay the flight while staff try to load them, they have 3 bags each and don't see why they can't take them onto the plane, they carry formula into security and then spend ages arguing with the security checkers that they should be allowed to take it onto the plane, despite the giant "no liquids" signs (and I've seen one hurl it to the floor, leaving formula splattered everywhere - including on other people), etc etc.

THESE people make air travel far slower and less pleasant than it could be. Not everyone with kids falls into this category. But the majority of unpleasant flight experiences I've had in the last many years featured people traveling with kids to a greater or lesser degree - and it shows a basic disregard of other people on the part of the parents.

cheers, Mark

There seems to be, amongst some/many parents, a sense of entitlement simply because they have children.

[CorPse]

Not without a good tailwind.

Care to elaborate...

... seems like a big truck with a low mpg engine vs. a big container hauler that neutralizes the weight of the cargo with a gas-filled chamber would give the advantage to a lighter than air craft.

It probably wouldn't be quite as fast as a truck and you'd, of course, need to provide thrust with the engines, but I'm guessing you'd end up burning less fuel.

You'd still need to get the cargo into trucks at some point, but hopefully, you'd end up with a system where stuff went into the truck much closer to it's destination.

[Spence]

There seems to be, amongst some/many parents, a sense of entitlement simply because they have children.

I tend to believe the sense of "undeserved entitlement" is a more general problem. I see them everywhere, from the super important woman that runs into her also super important friends and decides that rather than step off to the side, she will update them on her very important stuff by blocking the entire entry way. They also get miffed if you ask them to let you by. If you use words like "Excuse me, may I get by?" they really throw a hissy. How dare you want to use the door as a door :eek: Then you have the guy at work, parking is extremely limited and he insists on parking up front and makes sure by coming in early. No problem with that, but since his pickup is better than everyone else's vehicle, he of course parks in two spots, and then is upset when he gets a parking ticket. How dare they, don't they know how important he is?!? :nonp: And be careful, if you make the mistake of opening a door and holding it for a woman these days, prepare to be blasted.

Sometimes I wonder why I even try to be polite anymore. Habit I guess.....

[Querysphinx]

I tend to believe the sense of "undeserved entitlement" is a more general problem. I see them everywhere, from the super important woman that runs into her also super important friends and decides that rather than step off to the side, she will update them on her very important stuff by blocking the entire entry way. They also get miffed if you ask them to let you by. If you use words like "Excuse me, may I get by?" they really throw a hissy. How dare you want to use the door as a door :eek: Then you have the guy at work, parking is extremely limited and he insists on parking up front and makes sure by coming in early. No problem with that, but since his pickup is better than everyone else's vehicle, he of course parks in two spots, and then is upset when he gets a parking ticket. How dare they, don't they know how important he is?!? :nonp: And be careful, if you make the mistake of opening a door and holding it for a woman these days, prepare to be blasted.

Sometimes I wonder why I even try to be polite anymore. Habit I guess.....

Spend some time in Japan. They will absolutely kill you (in a good way) with politeness. Of course you will never ever get a straight answer from anyone about any topic more controversial than the weather, but the circumlocutions will be very polite.

As for cargo transport, what we need to do is improve our (the U.S.) rail system. Ever since the govt gave control of the rail lines back to the rail companies they've been doing their level best to choke every last "now" penny out of their track while utterly ignoring the "later" dollar they would make from investing in new track/properly upkeeping existing track. (You can't spell "stupid" without U.P.)

Good rail makes more sense than dirigibles for cargo transport.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Honestly the role I see for Airships in the 21st century is as a luxury travel option, similar to cruise lines. A VERY green travel option, potentially.

I've love to captain my own big arsed Carbon Nano-fiber solar powered Zeppelin around a circuit of major cities and resort town with a sort of "Moulin Rouge meets Hedonism III meets The Pirates of the Caribbean" vibe onboard.

Who cares if it takes a few extra days to route around bad weather? We worry about schedules WAY to much in this modern era.

[Old Man]

Wow, what brought that on? How do I become the target of your rant against your fellow air travellers, after posting a comment about people who can't keep their damn spawn under control?

Because they're kids, dude. They're gonna make noise, and they have just as much right to be on the plane as you do. And before you answer: please understand that unless you have kids, or have taken care of kids, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, so your complaints make you sound both ignorant and selfish. Please understand that I'm not trying to be condescending or arrogant when I say you have no idea what you're talking about. It's just a fact, just as it would be if you were a virgin complaining about sex. You just don't know, and I hope you take that into account when dealing with your fellow humans in the future.

[jtelson]

It's looking like this Zepplin may be on the fast track, errrr lazy tailwind, to NGD.

[Curufea]

Speaking of carbon fibre - it would be possible to construct blimps/zepellins in any shape if we manage to create buckyball surrounded vacuums. There's nothing more lighter-than-air than a vacuum.

[Kristopher]

Speaking of carbon fibre - it would be possible to construct blimps/zepellins in any shape if we manage to create buckyball surrounded vacuums. There's nothing more lighter-than-air than a vacuum.

Is the structure of a buckyball tight enough to keep air molecules from passing through?

[Kristopher]

Because they're kids, dude. They're gonna make noise, and they have just as much right to be on the plane as you do. And before you answer: please understand that unless you have kids, or have taken care of kids, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, so your complaints make you sound both ignorant and selfish. Please understand that I'm not trying to be condescending or arrogant when I say you have no idea what you're talking about. It's just a fact, just as it would be if you were a virgin complaining about sex. You just don't know, and I hope you take that into account when dealing with your fellow humans in the future.

Meh. Any kid who can't control himself shouldn't be out in public, especially in an airplane where others can't walk away. Too many people drag kids who aren't ready for it into restaurants, theatres, and evidently airplanes. One of the many reasons I don't fly.

[jtelson]

Is the structure of a buckyball tight enough to keep air molecules from passing through?

If you work with them as nested tubes or overlaid/layered graphene sheets it should be possible to minimize helium loss you'd want to avoid hydrogen even if you use a cell structure because of the semi-conductive properties of the Si (The Cell structure would almost certainly require Buckytubes rather than balls).

From a game perspective though you get the added bonus of potential quantum effects which are always fun :)

[jtelson]

Now that I'm thinking about it, there is some interesting research going on with spooling nano-wires. Once that's up to a manufacturing level (years & years & years) you could just weave a Zepplin; The Dirigablity would be pretty high.

[Captain Obvious]

Meh. Any kid who can't control himself shouldn't be out in public, especially in an airplane where others can't walk away. Too many people drag kids who aren't ready for it into restaurants, theatres, and evidently airplanes. One of the many reasons I don't fly.

I'll agree that there are too many kids in restaurants and theaters that should have been left with a sitter, but with airplanes it's not always so easy. My wife had to fly to her father's funeral with my 18 month old daughter and my three week old son, and short of not attending, she didn't have any way around it. And since I'm reasonably sure my son didn't stop crying for the first year and a half of his life, people were probably annoyed, but screw them.

[Markdoc]

Usually, I agree with you, but in this case, I have to comment.


Because they're kids, dude. They're gonna make noise, and they have just as much right to be on the plane as you do.

Wrong and wrong. Badly behaved, badly disciplined kids make noise all the time. There seems to be some sort of misapprehension that you can't make kids obey simple commands. However, having spent time in culture and with families who do teach politeness I know that it's actually quite possible. Babies are a slightly different case. But in situations where you know you're going to be in a confined space with other people for hours, it's simple to get an infant sedative in advance.

As for "as much right as you" - nuh-uh. Until kids pay adult fares, I'm subsidising them every time I buy an airticket. Now I don't have a problem with that: I like the idea that families should be able to afford to travel. But when I'm helping underwrite that travel, asking for a certain level of responsible behaviour is not unreasonable.




But I HAVE taken care of kids - and I still agree with Kristopher. Saying "I have annoying kids - deal with it" is entirely equivalent to saying "I just took a dump under your chair - deal with it."

To quote Brian Hennigan:
[QUOTE]WHAT is the difference between having noisy, uncontrolled children and a noisy, uncontrolled drunk on an airplane? After a business flight last Wednesday to Amsterdam, I struggle to find a genuine difference.

At any rate, airlines are starting to work out that disruptive children on flights hurt their business and do something about it. Continental recently threw a mother and her child off a flight from Atlanta to Oklahoma because of the child's disruptive behaviour, while AirTran dumped a family in Florida because their daughter threw a tantrum on the plane and refused to get in her seat. When the family went public to try and shame AirTran, the airline got over 14,000 emails - overwhelmingly in support of AirTran.

Now that sort of thing is no fun for anybody - maybe the airlines could have handled those situations without dumping the passengers: I wasn't there so I don't really know. On the other hand, delaying a flight for a disruptive child might mean that dozens of people miss their onward flights - so just maybe the decision to kick the troublemaker out was the right one.

In my experience - and I'm writing this from Geneva airport, if you get my drift - most people are happy to extend courtesy to families traveling with children. I've given up my seat to allow people with kids more room, I've helped them maneuver their strollers and baggage, I've patiently waited for them to get their stuff on or off the plane. Families with kids get priority boarding, and extra attention while on the flight - and that's fair enough. But expecting a little courtesy in return is not unreasonable.


Cheers, Mark

[steamteck]

Meh. Any kid who can't control himself shouldn't be out in public, especially in an airplane where others can't walk away. Too many people drag kids who aren't ready for it into restaurants, theatres, and evidently airplanes. One of the many reasons I don't fly.

Amen, My kids know they better be polite and good in public or they'll be hell to pay and you know it works!

[Spence]

Kristopher Must spread.......


Markdoc Very well put. And Very Very true!! and I must spread.....grrrr...


steamteck I'm glad to see there are a few honest to gosh parents out there still. Why aren't you ever traveling when I do? repped

[Spence]

Back to the topic

I remember reading something a while back talking about zeps using lightweight rigid envelopes that were streamlined and stronger than a traditional design that also acted as lifting bodies at higher speeds.

I was looking to find something current, but my google-fu is weak....