Building Caltrops: How would you do it?

[Thia Halmades]

So we're designing caltrops for the campaign ninja; I built them as a Change Environment (q.v.) and I'm curious about two things.

One, would you guys do it differently, and two, specifically, the damage on the element on the CE; what's the defense against the damage element? Should it be a limitation (Does not work against reinforced boots, -1/4?) What does the collective think?

10 Caltrops: Change Environment 1" radius, +3 Points of Damage, -3" of any one mode of Movement, Long-Lasting 20 Minutes, Multiple Combat Effects (36 Active Points); OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1), 4 Charges (-1), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Dropped; -1/2), Limited Range (Range Based on STR; -1/4), Physical Manifestation (-1/4)

[ghost-angel]

Sounds about right. Any Resistant Defense should stop the Caltrops.

[JmOz]

So we're designing caltrops for the campaign ninja; I built them as a Change Environment (q.v.) and I'm curious about two things.

One, would you guys do it differently, and two, specifically, the damage on the element on the CE; what's the defense against the damage element? Should it be a limitation (Does not work against reinforced boots, -1/4?) What does the collective think?

10 Caltrops: Change Environment 1" radius, +3 Points of Damage, -3" of any one mode of Movement, Long-Lasting 20 Minutes, Multiple Combat Effects (36 Active Points); OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1), 4 Charges (-1), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Dropped; -1/2), Limited Range (Range Based on STR; -1/4), Physical Manifestation (-1/4)

Physical Manifestation and Limited range should be droped, the first because it's a focu, the second because of the dropped limitation (However I would keep the lim range and get rid of dropped), a limitation on not vs anyone with rPD feet (-1/4 or -1/2) because not including the damage the movement penalty can basicaly be ignored. I also think the damage may be on the high side

[Thia Halmades]

Physical Manifestation and Limited range should be droped, the first because it's a focu, the second because of the dropped limitation (However I would keep the lim range and get rid of dropped), a limitation on not vs anyone with rPD feet (-1/4 or -1/2) because not including the damage the movement penalty can basicaly be ignored. I also think the damage may be on the high side

Good suggestions, and modifications made. Thanks, JmOz. Still curious what others may think (or if they built them differently). I did remove Dropped, but replaced it with "Only When In Contact With the Ground, -1/4."

[Sean Waters]

I've done it slightly differently in the past: using drain. Here's the build (or something like it):

Drain BODY 1d6+1 (standard effect: 4 points), Uncontrolled (+1/2), [two powers] simultaneously (Stun and Running; +1/2), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1), Two-Dimensional (-1/4), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per 20 Minutes; +3/4), Continuous (+1) (58 Active Points); 4 Charges (-1), Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Damage can be avoided (shuffling through, thick boots, standing still); -1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Cannot use to attack direct (only people moving through area subject to damage); -1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Effects can be removed with an application of a healing power; -1/4)

15 Real Points (58 active)

Now this sort of assumes that Power Defence is either rare or very specifically defined, because it makes litle sense that PowD would protect against caltrops, but it is pretty rare outside superhero games anyway IME.

I have not included a physical manifestation or focus limitation because that is kinda subsumed by the uncontrolled advantage - you 'switch it off' by clearing/destroying the caltrops (or having sufficient people trigger them), but other than that they basically stay there forever. PM/focus implies a singler attack could destroy the power, which doesn't seem realistic.

The problem with CE is that, whilst the caltrops will remain for 20 minutes in your build, the effects of walking through the area disappear when you exit the area, at least that's my understanding. The drain build gives you ongoing problems until the points recover (20 minutes), even if you leave the area - your feet still hurt.

There are a number of ways you can avoid the damage: the AoE is 2 dimensional, so you can jump over. You can shuffle through. You can wear armoured boots. You can probably even make a DEX/acrobatics check to run through avoiding the caltrops.

Finally you can remove the effects early if you are healed. The limtiation value on that would vary with campaign. This build looks a lot more complicated but shouldn't be any harder to apply in practice. Theoretically :)

One other thing to consider is some level of IPE: caltrops may be obvious, shiny things if the aim is to prevent peopel following you, or they may be blackened and dull so that people don;t realise they are there until they are int he middle of them.

Oh, and finnally - the activation roll. The idea is that the power activates normally, but everyone passing through the area rolls the activation roll - it is possible you could avoid the effects by sheer dumb luck!

I said finally, but I have a question: does the build I suggested need Reduced END? Technically charges don't use END but I'm effectively building continuing charges in a non-standard way, so I stuck it in: thoughts?

[McCoy]

I'd use EB or RKA, 1 hex area, with a trigger (entering area). Normal defense apply.

[Sean Waters]

I'd use EB or RKA, 1 hex area, with a trigger (entering area). Normal defense apply.

That might be OK in a game using hit locations, but it doesn't slow an opponent down, which is the main point of caltrops, and even in a game using hit locations, caltrop damage is never likely to be high enough to cause an impairment to most characters.

It does have the advantage of being very straightforward though :)

[Bloodstone]

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45668

[CrosshairCollie]

A small RKA, Area Effect, Continuous, Uncontrolled, 0END (cancelled by taking the time to sweep up/clear out the caltrops), only on the ground, with a linked Running Drain, only if the RKA deals Body damage.

[Thia Halmades]

So, is the Defense against a CE's "Attack" element Power Defense then?

[Sean Waters]

So, is the Defense against a CE's "Attack" element Power Defense then?

Logically, as any running 'drain' (and I'm including CE effects in that) is as a direct result fo taking damage from the caltrops, it should probably be NND: either you take damage and the drain happens (unless you are immune to pain, for example, or have a LOT of legs), or, well, you don't.

Also my only real objection to a RKA is that, realistically, it doesn't matter how many caltrops you tread on, it's never going to kill you. And then your foot falls off...

[SteveZilla]

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45668

Hey! No fair quoting my thread! ;)

I did cover my reasons why I thought a RKA (or damaging Change Environment) was not the way to go, and instead settled on a Drain.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1079492&postcount=24

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Please remember that the running (or, technically, leaping) reduction is going to happen whether the person takes damage or not; it's like running across a hex of marbles or whatever. Either you slow down and slide/kick your way through, or you don't and have to make dex checks to avoid falling -- and are thus slowed down.

I think I'd add in the 'only if/when in contact with the ground', though. I'd agree that any rPD footwear should be able to avoid the whole damage problem, but they'd still have to make the Dex check to keep at full speed. And if someone falls, well, best have rPD armor on. ;)

[Thia Halmades]

Please remember that the running (or, technically, leaping) reduction is going to happen whether the person takes damage or not; it's like running across a hex of marbles or whatever. Either you slow down and slide/kick your way through, or you don't and have to make dex checks to avoid falling -- and are thus slowed down.

I think I'd add in the 'only if/when in contact with the ground', though. I'd agree that any rPD footwear should be able to avoid the whole damage problem, but they'd still have to make the Dex check to keep at full speed. And if someone falls, well, best have rPD armor on. ;)

Yah, good point -- you'll still be slowed down by 3", but you can avoid taking the damage. However (and I'm sorry, maybe this was answered and I missed it) but my question still was:

Change Environment has a Damage Element. You step into the CE, you take damage. Bang. How is that defended against? Power Defense? I'm still confused. :help:

[Zed-F]

IIRC it's normally treated as NND damage, and you have to specify what prevents the damage from happening. At least, I seem to recall the example in FREd describing a CE that causes damage as due to a change in air pressure as not causing damage against the appropriate LS (high pressure.)

[Thia Halmades]

IIRC it's normally treated as NND damage, and you have to specify what prevents the damage from happening. At least, I seem to recall the example in FREd describing a CE that causes damage as due to a change in air pressure as not causing damage against the appropriate LS (high pressure.)

Okay, so having rPD boots will prevent the damage but still slow you down; the last version I made specified that (damage prevented by rPD boots; -1/4). -1/4, or -1/2? :think:

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Going by what I'm reading, it's normal damage. I might say -1/4, but that's pretty generous; I might just say 'built-in', but give you AP otherwise.



Player specifies type of damage and may, at the GM's option, include appropriate Advantages; otherwise, Advantages may be purchased for the damage.


I'd allow up to a 1/2 'free' Advantage at most, i.e. Armor Piercing or Penetrating, depending on the type of damage -- possibly a 'very common defenses' NND.

[Thia Halmades]

Going by what I'm reading, it's normal damage. I might say -1/4, but that's pretty generous; I might just say 'built-in', but give you AP otherwise.



I'd allow up to a 1/2 'free' Advantage at most, i.e. Armor Piercing or Penetrating, depending on the type of damage -- possibly a 'very common defenses' NND.

Okay; so I can make it "1 point of killing" and call it good if I want too? Wow. World's cheapest killing attack.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Okay; so I can make it "1 point of killing" and call it good if I want too? Wow. World's cheapest killing attack.

As it were, yeah. Please note that it's up to the GM whether you can define it that way; I know I wouldn't let it be a KA.

[Thia Halmades]

As it were, yeah. Please note that it's up to the GM whether you can define it that way; I know I wouldn't let it be a KA.

I am the Brute Squad. ;) I think that's what I was thinking of initially when I made it 3 points; those 3 points of Normal damage will get soaked by most people's natural PD; it's not Penetrating or Armor Piercing.

Now I'm wondering if I shouldn't make it one point Penetrating.

[Sean Waters]

Please remember that the running (or, technically, leaping) reduction is going to happen whether the person takes damage or not; it's like running across a hex of marbles or whatever. Either you slow down and slide/kick your way through, or you don't and have to make dex checks to avoid falling -- and are thus slowed down.

I think I'd add in the 'only if/when in contact with the ground', though. I'd agree that any rPD footwear should be able to avoid the whole damage problem, but they'd still have to make the Dex check to keep at full speed. And if someone falls, well, best have rPD armor on. ;)

I'm not sure this is true: you can make caltrops by welding two bent nails together, and stamping on them would more than likely cause them to simply fall apart, especially if you are wearing heavy armour - you're going to be weighing a lot. It would be no more problematic than running over an area where there are, for instance, stones scatetred about. Of course you can build it to slow opponents anyway: it is a matter of what you want rather than getting too tied up with reality. In reality you can move pretty fast doing a shoe shuffle, which would prevent damage from caltrops.

Oh, and if you throw them onto soft ground they get pushed down rather than into your boot, so they are pretty useless on sand.

[Sean Waters]

What sort of game are we talking about? Will it be using hit locations, and disabling rules? If so it might seriously simplify the build :)

[Thia Halmades]

What sort of game are we talking about? Will it be using hit locations, and disabling rules? If so it might seriously simplify the build :)

Fantasy HERO, heroic premise (people are real, squishy people, the heroes even though built on 250 points are still "normal humans" in many cases). There's a distinct lack of high magic & magical items, although they do exist in the setting.

[SteveZilla]

Fantasy HERO, heroic premise (people are real, squishy people, the heroes even though built on 250 points are still "normal humans" in many cases). There's a distinct lack of high magic & magical items, although they do exist in the setting.

Perhaps if we reasoned from effect? ;)

Q: What are caltrops for, and how do they achieve that?

A: They slow the movement of people and some animals by injuring their feet (motive limbs) in a painful manner. The pain makes them move more slowly until it heals but even multiple injuries are not life-threatening.

[pinecone]

So we're designing caltrops for the campaign ninja; I built them as a Change Environment (q.v.) and I'm curious about two things.

One, would you guys do it differently, and two, specifically, the damage on the element on the CE; what's the defense against the damage element? Should it be a limitation (Does not work against reinforced boots, -1/4?) What does the collective think?

10 Caltrops: Change Environment 1" radius, +3 Points of Damage, -3" of any one mode of Movement, Long-Lasting 20 Minutes, Multiple Combat Effects (36 Active Points); OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1), 4 Charges (-1), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Dropped; -1/2), Limited Range (Range Based on STR; -1/4), Physical Manifestation (-1/4)

I built them as RKA AE, trigger: Blundering through area, automatic hit location...I might have used disabling....but I think I just poked holes in people feet...." Can I go full speed? "Sure, we'll just use the Bleeding rules" "I think I'll move more carfully...would a half move keep me healthy?" "As healthy as you can be with a big hole in your foot"

[Sean Waters]

So, more lasting damage than stun...something less deadly than Body.

OK, we can do that, and we can do it without drain.

How about this:

AoE 2D Killing attack. Always takes location 'feet' unless you fall over in it.

LIMITATION: NONFATAL - Body damage does not reduce Body total, heals seperately at REC/day (-1/4? -1/2?). This means that the effects can never be fatal BUT can cause problems. Look at the 'breaking limbs' rules from page 412: if you take 1/3 of your Body damage total to your feet they are 'broken' (-2 DCV, running halved). The Body done would still accumulate and would be healed seperately from the normal 'serious' Body damage.

Actually that's a pretty good limitation for all sorts of things that cause long term injuries/problems, but are rarely if ever fatal. Whips, for instance. I'm sure you could think of other examples. I'm sure I could if I had an ounce of wit about me.

[Kdansky]

250 cp
low magic
NCM
nomal humans

And where do your PCs spend their points? If you buy every skill in the book you still have some points left :P

[SteveZilla]

250 cp
low magic
NCM
nomal humans

And where do your PCs spend their points? If you buy every skill in the book you still have some points left :P


Ten Overall Skill Levels! :D

[SteveZilla]

AoE 2D Killing attack. Always takes location 'feet' unless you fall over in it.

LIMITATION: NONFATAL - Body damage does not reduce Body total, heals seperately at REC/day (-1/4? -1/2?). This means that the effects can never be fatal BUT can cause problems. Look at the 'breaking limbs' rules from page 412: if you take 1/3 of your Body damage total to your feet they are 'broken' (-2 DCV, running halved). The Body done would still accumulate and would be healed seperately from the normal 'serious' Body damage.

Actually that's a pretty good limitation for all sorts of things that cause long term injuries/problems, but are rarely if ever fatal. Whips, for instance. I'm sure you could think of other examples. I'm sure I could if I had an ounce of wit about me.

I've never heard of a whip causing a disabling injury unless it hit someone in the eye -- or it was *heavily* barbed.

But Nonfatal(-1/2) is a good idea for caltrops, IMO (it could also be called "Only To Disable"). It solved the (IMO) lethality problem of using even a 1 pip KA, yet allows normal use of the disabling rules -- provided the GM is using those rules.

[Thia Halmades]

My PCs purchase a lot of powers & abilities; the Paladin has multipower and a follower, the ninja has TWO multipowers (one for his Martial Arts, one for his Ancestral Relic) and a bevy of Martial Maneuvers. The Thief spent a chunk of his on a magical bracer that modified his entire right arm, and magic is expensive as all get out. Even at 250, people were crying that they didn't have "enough" points. So it worked out very nicely.

You're forgetting things, though, like:

Stats
Martial Arts
"Super Skills"
Outright Powers/Spell Like Abilities

The 250 was designed to account for that. Initially I set it to 200, but that was too tight, some characters just couldn't be fleshed out properly (the Paladin was the baseline; if I can get him right, I can get everything else to follow) and that's almost precisely how it went down.

[Thia Halmades]

My PCs purchase a lot of powers & abilities; the Paladin has multipower and a follower, the ninja has TWO multipowers (one for his Martial Arts, one for his Ancestral Relic) and a bevy of Martial Maneuvers. The Thief spent a chunk of his on a magical bracer that modified his entire right arm, and magic is expensive as all get out. Even at 250, people were crying that they didn't have "enough" points. So it worked out very nicely.

You're forgetting things, though, like:

Stats
Martial Arts
"Super Skills"
Outright Powers/Spell Like Abilities

The 250 was designed to account for that. Initially I set it to 200, but that was too tight, some characters just couldn't be fleshed out properly (the Paladin was the baseline; if I can get him right, I can get everything else to follow) and that's almost precisely how it went down.

[Killer Shrike]

So we're designing caltrops for the campaign ninja; I built them as a Change Environment (q.v.) and I'm curious about two things.

One, would you guys do it differently, and two, specifically, the damage on the element on the CE; what's the defense against the damage element? Should it be a limitation (Does not work against reinforced boots, -1/4?) What does the collective think?

10 Caltrops: Change Environment 1" radius, +3 Points of Damage, -3" of any one mode of Movement, Long-Lasting 20 Minutes, Multiple Combat Effects (36 Active Points); OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1), 4 Charges (-1), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Dropped; -1/2), Limited Range (Range Based on STR; -1/4), Physical Manifestation (-1/4)

This is more or less the approach I would take. :thumbup:

[Thia Halmades]

This is more or less the approach I would take. :thumbup:

Awesome, thanks KS. :)

[Sean Waters]

I've never heard of a whip causing a disabling injury unless it hit someone in the eye -- or it was *heavily* barbed.

But Nonfatal(-1/2) is a good idea for caltrops, IMO (it could also be called "Only To Disable"). It solved the (IMO) lethality problem of using even a 1 pip KA, yet allows normal use of the disabling rules -- provided the GM is using those rules.

I agree, but the way Hero whips are built at the moment is as a 1/2d6 killing attack, so (with strength) most unarmoured opponents would be on the critical list after two or three strokes. Whilst it might seem odd to treat such wounds in this way, in fact they are rarely fatal, but can cause all kinds of problems because of the pain - most of the really sensitive nerve endings are near the surface of the skin, and a whip exploits this.

The particular mechanic I was mentioning here (breaking limbs) is usually an alternative to the impairing/disabling mechanic, and I went this way because impairing/disabling works of individual wounds not cumulative totals.

Anyway, it is an idea that needs some work but has potential, I feel :)