Interceptor

[Sean Waters]

So, I was thinking, what if you could build a power that intercepted another's incoming attack? Well, you can Sean, it is called 'Missile Deflection'. Yes, BUT...MD doesn't work against quite a few attacks, including, importantly, most AoE attacks.

What I'm thinking of is a power that, in effect, puts something in the way of an incoming attck so the effects take place at a point other than the target hex.

Am I making sense?

I have a couple of ideas but I'm not happy with them , so what do you think? How do I make Master Blaster's not-normally-deflectable AoE attack go off next to him, rather than next to me?

[Doc Democracy]

I have a couple of ideas but I'm not happy with them , so what do you think? How do I make Master Blaster's not-normally-deflectable AoE attack go off next to him, rather than next to me?

You are essentially talking about Missile Deflection but want to expand its capabilities dont you. I think that if you are not going to go along the route of expanding MD and making it cost more then the ideal method is going to be SFX dependent. Different ways of doing this would depend on how you envisage the pwoer working.

So. You want a modified MD which makes this a generic power in the book that has to have SFX added for gameplay or do you want a variety of ways that would be SFX dependent - a teleport character might use a very different mix of powers to achieve this than a telekinetic or energy blaster I think.


Doc

[Sean Waters]

I hadn't thought of that approach :)

I was working on either some sort of mind control, or illusion, making the attacker aim at somewhere other than where they thought they were OR an IPE force wall, so that the attack hits something before it reaches the target and goes off.

Actually a 1/1 IPE force wall used to englobe a blaster (without their knowledge) sounds like a horribly effective tactic - for some reason all their attacks go off right in front of them...

[Alibear]

Can you not just build it as a big force wall to hide behind when attacked?

[Doc Democracy]

I was working on either some sort of mind control, or illusion, making the attacker aim at somewhere other than where they thought they were OR an IPE force wall, so that the attack hits something before it reaches the target and goes off.


As I said, there might be any number of power constructs (and neither of these were foremost in my mind) that particular characters would use.

What would you like the game to include? An extension to missile deflect or a quick discussion on what is possible using other powers?


Stephen

[Sean Waters]

Can you not just build it as a big force wall to hide behind when attacked?

You can, but the point is to control where the AoE goes off - if you make it near the attacker it does not have to be big or expensive, and he gets caught int he blast :)

[Sean Waters]

As I said, there might be any number of power constructs (and neither of these were foremost in my mind) that particular characters would use.

What would you like the game to include? An extension to missile deflect or a quick discussion on what is possible using other powers?


Stephen

You know me, mate - whatever is going to be most convoluted and complex :D

[Doc Democracy]

You know me, mate - whatever is going to be most convoluted and complex :D

I didn't want to say that! :)

[Alibear]

You can, but the point is to control where the AoE goes off - if you make it near the attacker it does not have to be big or expensive, and he gets caught int he blast :)


Okay, so you put the FWall up next to him?

[Sean Waters]

Okay, so you put the FWall up next to him?

Well, exactly: the advantage of englobing is just that you don;t have to morry about him changing target :)

The build I was originally working with was astraightforward FW, IPE, but now I'm thinking something like this:

Force Wall (1 PD/1 ED/1 Mental Defense/1 Power Defense/1 Flash Defense: Sight Group/1 Flash Defense: Hearing Group), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (52 Active Points); Instant (-1/2), Requires A Block roll Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests, No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll; -1/4)

52 Active points, 30 Real points

It wouldn't even need to be invisible really, which would reduuce the cost further.

Now what I'm wondering is the effect of an attack hitting a barrier. I assume that an AoE would be triggered at the point of contact, but a normal energy blast would that continue, with a damage penalty of -1, to the target - to make it an entirely consistent power, and to stop all incoming ranged attacks, build a straightforward Missile Deflection, and change the trigger to 'when missile deflecting', and the RSR to 'successful MD roll'. That seems like a system compatable way to build a MD v AoE attacks, but I may be overlooking something obvious.

The bigegst question is whether the AoE goes off on contact with the FW. I can't imagine any other result - to damage a FW, the AoE has to trigger, doesn't it?

[Alibear]

Eh? Those beers at lunchtime wern't a good idea. So this forcewall is only 1 def? It ain't gonna stop much. What am I missing?

[Sean Waters]

Eh? Those beers at lunchtime wern't a good idea. So this forcewall is only 1 def? It ain't gonna stop much. What am I missing?

Pretty useless against normal attacks that work by actually hitting you - EBs, RKAs etc. HOWEVER, the way I have it figured is this: to get through the FW, an attack with an AoE (which a Missile Deflection is useless against), the AoE has to go off, and if it is going off OVER THERE it is not going off over here. Sure the FW goes down, but its only purpose was to intercept the AoE anyway - the level of defence is pretty much irrelevant.

[Sean Waters]

What I'm thinking is this: if you have an 8d6 EB Explosion attack power, and it hist a 1/1 FW, then to get throught he FW it has to damage it, so the exlposion has to go off, and once it has gone off, there is nothing to continue to the original target hex with. Maybe that is not how it works, but I can't see another logical way for the process to occur, nor any guidance as such under FW in 5ER. It makes it clear that an attack that breaches a FW can continue to the original target, but I simply can't see how that can apply to AoE attacks.

[Alibear]

So lets look at sfx and common sense...

Bloke A lobs a grenade at you.
The grenade hits the wall and goes off. the 1pd wall is pierced and 7 body is incoming at you.

Lets hope you are outside the blast radius and let's hope Bloke A has personal immunity.


Are we both seeing the same thing? What if he has an AA atatck with a hex hole in the middle?

[Supreme Serpent]

Get Missile Reflection and make up some kind of adder or advantage called "Yes I can!" that lets you deflect/reflect the sort of stuff you want to. Make your reflection roll, then target the hex you want it to go off in. The SFX is that it 'really' gets intercepted along the way.

Something like:

"Yes I can!" - Deflection/Reflection can target AE/Explosion attacks normally immune based on SFX. +20

Interceptor - reflected attacks must be reflected along original attack path. -1 limit on the Reflection part of MD.

[Sean Waters]

So lets look at sfx and common sense...

Bloke A lobs a grenade at you.
The grenade hits the wall and goes off. the 1pd wall is pierced and 7 body is incoming at you.

Lets hope you are outside the blast radius and let's hope Bloke A has personal immunity.

That is how I see it - the grenade, or whatever 'goes off' at the FW, destroying it and extending to its normal area of effect :thumbup:

No idea if that is the right approach, but it is the only one I can think of that makes sense!



Are we both seeing the same thing? What if he has an AA attack with a hex hole in the middle?

Hole in the middle. Hmm. I imagine it still goes off at the boundary, but might not destroy the FW...still they are rare for ranged AoE attacks - I'll fluff* it when it comes up :)



*Not, obviously, in the porn film sense.

[Doc Democracy]

As an englobing force wall, or even a plced one I would ask for an attack roll and therefore would not allow it as an abort to action. I suppose there is a slight precedent in block requiring an OCV vs OCV roll and you could replace that, but I would look askance...


Doc

[Alibear]

That's what the trigger is for.

[Doc Democracy]

That's what the trigger is for.

Good point, well made. I missed the trigger element completely

[PhilFleischmann]

If a grenade has, or is assumed to have, "Real Weapon", then I'd say it can already be Deflected/Reflected, or intercepted without any additional power construct.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

That is how I see it - the grenade, or whatever 'goes off' at the FW, destroying it and extending to its normal area of effect :thumbup:

No idea if that is the right approach, but it is the only one I can think of that makes sense!





Lets look at the classic fireball description. A gesture, and a flaming sphere shoots forth to explode in a fiery ball at the location I designate. But wait! If the sphere hits something before that time then it detonates prematurely!

Of course, I play Hero games, so that doesn't actually happen to my FB. You can't Missile Deflect my little flaming sphere cause I didn't take 'Can be Missile Deflected' as a limitation, and you can't make it explode prematurely because I paid points for the power, and it works the way I want. Nice try though.

A generous GM might reduce the AoE attack by a d6 to represent it punching a hole through your barrier. Assuming you brought the Faygo that week.

[Ocelot]

Okay, either I'm a genius or an idiot, but I'm surprised something hasn't been brought up yet. Probably because it wouldn't work. But, what about

Mental Illusions?

Seems to me, you're controlling where the person shoots, so you're actually making him think he's shooting somewhere else. Well, depending on the special effect. But, with a high enough level of Mental Illusions, you could basically just make him think he was shooting his AoE blast somewhere else. He'd think he was shooting it where you were, and in reality, he'd be shooting his best friend.

Am I missing something, or would this totally work?

[Utech]

You might want to read the "Dispelling Incoming Attacks" section (5ER page 149) and simply rule that (using the same mechanics) a character can snipe at any incoming attack with a suitable Power. In any given attack, naturally, the GM and Players will have to use dramatic and common sense to determine if this can be done at all and what the results are.

Examples:

Attacker throws a bottle, defender shoots it with his six-shooter. Bottle shatters.
Attacker summons a bolt of lightning out of the sky, defender throws a rock at it. Rock explodes and lightning fails to strike target.
Attacker attempts to cause pain (Ego Attack), defender modifies it with Empathy based Mental Illusions and the attack causes the target to feel nothing but a mild tingling sensation. A fly who happened to be transiting the area at the time, however, is wracked by intense pain.
Attacker throws a bus, defender shoots it with his Firebolt spell. The Firebolt ignites the bus' gas tank and it explodes in mid-air.
Attacker tosses a lasso, defender throws a knife and it cuts the rope.

[Sean Waters]

Okay, either I'm a genius or an idiot, but I'm surprised something hasn't been brought up yet. Probably because it wouldn't work. But, what about

Mental Illusions?

Seems to me, you're controlling where the person shoots, so you're actually making him think he's shooting somewhere else. Well, depending on the special effect. But, with a high enough level of Mental Illusions, you could basically just make him think he was shooting his AoE blast somewhere else. He'd think he was shooting it where you were, and in reality, he'd be shooting his best friend.

Am I missing something, or would this totally work?

It is something I'd considered, but it is very different mechanically: it means that soemone with high EGO is less likely to miss, which seems odd (or high PER if you use Images, which is perhaps more understandable).

[Sean Waters]

Lets look at the classic fireball description. A gesture, and a flaming sphere shoots forth to explode in a fiery ball at the location I designate. But wait! If the sphere hits something before that time then it detonates prematurely!

Of course, I play Hero games, so that doesn't actually happen to my FB. You can't Missile Deflect my little flaming sphere cause I didn't take 'Can be Missile Deflected' as a limitation, and you can't make it explode prematurely because I paid points for the power, and it works the way I want. Nice try though.

A generous GM might reduce the AoE attack by a d6 to represent it punching a hole through your barrier. Assuming you brought the Faygo that week.


Does your HeroBall explode when it hits the barrier? If not, how does it do the one point of damage required to get through the FW? You can't use AoE attacks to punch through normal walls to hit something outside the AoE on the other side, even if you can target that thing through the wall. The fact that you can see someone through a plate glass window (DEF 3 BODY 1) doesn't mean you can fireball them: you have to destroy the window first, and if you are stuck in a one hex glass box, you are going to have to smash it first, and if you use your fireball, it is going to go off right in front of you.

That's what I think anyway. Mind you I've been very wrong before - and I genuinely don't know how th rules deal with AoE attacks and barriers.

[Sean Waters]

You might want to read the "Dispelling Incoming Attacks" section (5ER page 149) and simply rule that (using the same mechanics) a character can snipe at any incoming attack with a suitable Power. In any given attack, naturally, the GM and Players will have to use dramatic and common sense to determine if this can be done at all and what the results are.


Examples:
Attacker throws a bottle, defender shoots it with his six-shooter. Bottle shatters.
Attacker summons a bolt of lightning out of the sky, defender throws a rock at it. Rock explodes and lightning fails to strike target.
Attacker attempts to cause pain (Ego Attack), defender modifies it with Empathy based Mental Illusions and the attack causes the target to feel nothing but a mild tingling sensation. A fly who happened to be transiting the area at the time, however, is wracked by intense pain.
Attacker throws a bus, defender shoots it with his Firebolt spell. The Firebolt ignites the bus' gas tank and it explodes in mid-air.
Attacker tosses a lasso, defender throws a knife and it cuts the rope.

Cunning plan. I like it. It is not, perhaps, quite what I was after - MD ignored the AP of the attack, so using dispel is mechanically more complex in game - but I'll have a go and see how it turns out - thankyou.

[Jaxom]

I've seen the mental illusions constuct used to trick someone into firing on a friendly. The problem with using it to trick you into firing on yourself is that I would make the mentalist find a very convincing description of why you'd knowingly put yourself in the blast radius (i.e. how did you distort space so he thinks this is a safe shot) or he's going to pick a different target.

Regarding the forcewall idea, the issue is again why the attacker would continue with the attack. True IPE would work for me until he moved and figured out he was in a force-box.

I think the assessment that the 1 point wall is sufficient is the correct one in some cases and not in others... Compare it to the breaking things rules for attacking through a window... I think that Sean's example is probably the best one and unless I am mistaken it is covered in the breaking things section. Different special effects would result in different interpretations. A beam, for example, interacts differently with obstacles than a real weapon projectile or an EB.

Best I can come up with then is a case-by-case condition. Some tricks would work on some special effects, others would be required for other effects.

[Opal]

Maybe that is not how it works, but I can't see another logical way for the process to occur, nor any guidance as such under FW in 5ER. It makes it clear that an attack that breaches a FW can continue to the original target, but I simply can't see how that can apply to AoE attacks.A FW does block line of effect, like any other wall. If you have an AoE attack that's not bought indirect, you can't target it on the other side of a wall, so you also can't target it on the other side of a FW.

However, a 1 DEF IPE FW is something like a glass window. You could certainly fire a grenade (even a smoke grenade that does no damage based on the power bought through it) through a window. Of course, if you shot someone with a smoke grenade you'd actually hurt him, though you wouldn't in Hero. :shrug:

I'd be inclinded to have an AE like a grenade go right through the power you describe - but then, I'd also let MD work on a grenade, in the first place. (And I used to be such a purist).


Also, have you considered just getting MD with UAO at range or something odd like that? One reason an AOE wouldn't be deflectable is that it's not targetting your or your hex. You can't missle deflect a dragon's breath because the target of the cone is his mouth, for instance, or you couldn't deflect a bomb hitting 20' away from you, just because you're in the blast radius (and, if you did deflect a bomb landing on you, it'd still go off). With a ranged missle defelction (Cpt America throws his mighty shield...) you could concievably deflect an AE at a point intermediate between you and the attacker. With the re-direction option, you could presumably get it to hit the attacker.
Anyway, I think, mechanically, FW is the power you're looking for, I just wouldn't count on a very weak FW doing the job. I'd say stop the attack or it goes through (slightly reduced in power), if you just want to look at the mechanics. If it doesn't go through, yes, it'd make sense that it'd go off, with it's AE centered on the point of impact, and attenuated by the FW.

[Sean Waters]

A FW does block line of effect, like any other wall. If you have an AoE attack that's not bought indirect, you can't target it on the other side of a wall, so you also can't target it on the other side of a FW.

However, a 1 DEF IPE FW is something like a glass window. You could certainly fire a grenade (even a smoke grenade that does no damage based on the power bought through it) through a window. Of course, if you shot someone with a smoke grenade you'd actually hurt him, though you wouldn't in Hero. :shrug:

I'd be inclinded to have an AE like a grenade go right through the power you describe - but then, I'd also let MD work on a grenade, in the first place. (And I used to be such a purist).


Also, have you considered just getting MD with UAO at range or something odd like that? One reason an AOE wouldn't be deflectable is that it's not targetting your or your hex. You can't missle deflect a dragon's breath because the target of the cone is his mouth, for instance, or you couldn't deflect a bomb hitting 20' away from you, just because you're in the blast radius (and, if you did deflect a bomb landing on you, it'd still go off). With a ranged missle defelction (Cpt America throws his mighty shield...) you could concievably deflect an AE at a point intermediate between you and the attacker. With the re-direction option, you could presumably get it to hit the attacker.
Anyway, I think, mechanically, FW is the power you're looking for, I just wouldn't count on a very weak FW doing the job. I'd say stop the attack or it goes through (slightly reduced in power), if you just want to look at the mechanics. If it doesn't go through, yes, it'd make sense that it'd go off, with it's AE centered on the point of impact, and attenuated by the FW.


OK, but what if it was a 5/5 FW against an 8d6 AoE? It still goes through? That's not far off a brick wall. Where, in other words, would the break point be? If, for instance you had an 8d8 FW, would the 8d6 AOE break it, and only the stun continue tot eh original target hex?

I like the dispel idea above, but to affect a 60 AP attack, you are going to need 18d6, or 54 points worth, and that becomes prohibitively expensive if you want to trigger it by the use of MD, to allow you to MD AoE attacks: 135 points active, 77 real to add a triggered to END linked RSR dispel to your MD.

[Opal]

OK, but what if it was a 5/5 FW against an 8d6 AoE? It still goes through? That's not far off a brick wall. Where, in other words, would the break point be? If, for instance you had an 8d8 FW, would the 8d6 AOE break it, and only the stun continue tot eh original target hex?Presumably, you'd just roll the damage for the attack, if you wanted to keep strictly to mechanics, instead of letting F/X guide you. I believe a matched FW stays up (but I could be wrong: versionitis), so the attack would continue with at least 1 BOD, and a bunch of stun.

For a non-BOD-inflicting AE attack that really, logically should involve some kinetic energy (like a smoke/teargas/whatever) grenade, I might go so far as to handwave and give it a sort of 'causual STR' - half it's equivalent DCs in normal physical vs the FW. That's going pretty far afield, I know, but if it happened on the fly, that's how I'd be enclined to model it, since "it goes right through" and "it bounces right off" are both less than satisfying.

[Sean Waters]

Presumably, you'd just roll the damage for the attack, if you wanted to keep strictly to mechanics, instead of letting F/X guide you. I believe a matched FW stays up (but I could be wrong: versionitis), so the attack would continue with at least 1 BOD, and a bunch of stun.

For a non-BOD-inflicting AE attack that really, logically should involve some kinetic energy (like a smoke/teargas/whatever) grenade, I might go so far as to handwave and give it a sort of 'causual STR' - half it's equivalent DCs in normal physical vs the FW. That's going pretty far afield, I know, but if it happened on the fly, that's how I'd be enclined to model it, since "it goes right through" and "it bounces right off" are both less than satisfying.

I agree, but I'm not sure HOW to apply the mechanics. For an AoE atatck to do ANY damage, the AoE has to go off, and if that happens, it can't happen AGIAIN if it penetrates the barrier and gets to the intended target hex.

[Opal]

I agree, but I'm not sure HOW to apply the mechanics. For an AoE atatck to do ANY damage, the AoE has to go off, and if that happens, it can't happen AGIAIN if it penetrates the barrier and gets to the intended target hex.I'm not so sure about that. Say Firewing tosses a globe of plasma. Couldn't it melt through a minor obstacle before detonating? Grenades can shatter through windows to expode in a building. I think it really gets into either F/X or very persnickity builds. And if there's a disconect between the DM and players as to which way to go, you could have problems. IIRC, FRED leans more towards the 'sort it out based on F/X' school, these days, doesn't it?

So, if you had an AE defined as a grenade, it'd bounce of any FW that the person throwing it couldn't punch through with his STR, but it could be missle deflected by Cpt Americlone's shield. If you had a contact-fused photon torpedo, it'd go off the instant it touched /anything/, and missle deflecting it would only set it off, but even a curtain, window or cloud of gnats, let alone a FW, would stop it from going off downrange.

[vincemcd]

I've read through this thread a number of times, and I could have sworn I found something official about it somewhere. I finally found said ruling in the FAQ:



If a character makes an attack using an Area Of Effect/Explosion attack against a hex that’s inside a Force Wall, does the “intervening” FW automatically make the attack “detonate” in the hex where it contacts the FW?

No. The target hex is the target hex chosen by the attacker — the FW doesn’t change that. The GM might explain the special effect of the character’s FW protecting him as “it kept the grenade from exploding right next to you,” but in rules terms having a FW up doesn’t alter the target hex of an attack.


This sounds like much the same thing, only firing out of a Force Wall rather than into it.

[casualplayer]

This sounds a whole lot like the SFX of a Reflection, defined as preempting the attack. If you want it to work against attacks that can't normally be Missile Deflected/Reflected, then you need to make the attacker target an area close to themselves and that sounds like Penalty Skill Levels, Mind Control or Mental Illusions.