Every Myth Is Not True

[CrosshairCollie]

Something that filters through my cerebellum from time to time is the concept of running a superhero game in a universe where every myth and folk tale is not true; most of them are outright wrong, with a few attributed to more 'mundane' aspects.

For example, in 4E Champs universe, there was a kind of 'vampire' that was just a mutant who could only subsist on potassium; they tended to be pale, psionically active, and of course, drank blood. While these were alongside traditional vampires in the CU, in the world I'm contemplating, that would have been the only 'real' vampire, though the rather limited intellects of the Dark Ages would have conflated them into what we call the 'traditional' vampire myths nowadays. Vlad Tepes might have existed, and been one of these vampires ... but he was alive, not undead, and couldn't generate more vampires.

No magic, of course. At all.

King Arthur, if he existed, was just a guy, and Excalibur was just a pigsticker. Merlin, say, was at best a psychic, at worst merely a charlatan. There was no Atlantis, but there could be a Loch Ness monster, but it would be a mutated lizard, not a mythical beast or timelost plesiosaur.

I'm pondering taking the Star Trek route and have the various pantheons instead be aliens, even though there's no concrete evidence of alien life, either ... I'm vacillating on that one.

Basically, for every mythological entry, I'd need to figure out if it was just a story, or if it had some basis in fact, and if the latter, exactly what it was. Unfortunately, considering the sheer amount of 'Fantasy Kitchen Sink'-ing that most superhero games do ... that's a lot of stuff, even if you consider the aspects of it that regularly crop up in USA-based supers games.

The question, of course, is 'is it worth the effort'? It would create more focus, in a way, since you wouldn't have mages and mutants and aliens and all poking around at the same time. On the other hand, it stifles a lot of common plot elements.

Thoughts (and other ideas for things I'd need to account for)?

[Toushirou]

sounds kinda really interesting. seems like a perfect way, even for the most experienced roleplayers, to seperate character knowledge from player knowledge. one of the greatest problems a gm can encounter, but involves rather lot of preparation from the gm. to keep the players confused a mixture of still common myths and fake knowledge could be ínvolved. reminds me of dark sun, elves are still long living, but halflings are cannibals, where civilized halflings killed you before they ate you;)

[matrix3]

One thing about "just a story" is that many myths may have just been fabricated to explain the massive fossilized bones found by ancient peoples. If you find a femur of a woolly mammoth that's nearly as long as you are tall, and you recognize it as a femur, you will think it came from a giant. If that femur is accompanied by a skull, with its nice, wide central opening for the mammoth's trunk, you will naturally assume it is an eye socket for a 30 foot tall cyclops. And if some of the fossils are jumbled together, so you have what looks like a horse's body, with the skull of a raptor-style dinosaur, ta-dah, you've got yourself a gryphon!

[CrosshairCollie]

One thing about "just a story" is that many myths may have just been fabricated to example the massive fossilized bones found by ancient peoples. If you find a femur of a woolly mammoth that's nearly as long as you are tall, and you recognize it as a femur, you will think it came from a giant. If that femur is accompanied by a skull, with its nice, wide central opening for the mammoth's trunk, you will naturally assume it is an eye socket for a 30 foot tall cyclops. And if some of the fossils are jumbled together, so you have what looks like a horse's body, with the skull of a raptor-style dinosaur, ta-dah, you've got yourself a gryphon!

True, but this files under the 'flatly wrong, generated by scientific ignorance' label. There never WERE griffins (or gryphons), though people thought there were. However, in some fictions, it may have been an errant dimensional wanderer from some faerie realm (reminds me, another thing to strike: parallel dimensions other than alternate timelines).

[Certified]

Here would be my questions before delving too deeply into this thought experiment.
Will it have an impact on the campaign? If so to what extent? An entire campaign could be spun around these ideas. If the game's focus is centered around exploring the realities behind the myths then yes I believe it could be a extremely fun campaign and well worth the effort.

Is there an overall feel you are trying to achieve by using the updated myths? Will it just be part of the background filler or will it have an in game effect on the campaign as a whole?

(This is less of a campaign design question and more of a storyline question but something that first came to mind when reading the post.) Will the real myths be absolute? That is to say all myths were either based on something more "scientific" or were flat out wrong or will there be some blend of them both? For example: The mutants who feed of blood and are the root of vampire legend. Vlad Tepes not withstanding. What if at some point through the course of the game this is proven inaccurate? At some the players encounter a new strain of vampire with abilities more closely related to legend and not nearly easily explained? Would this add or detract from what you are imagining?

Overall, I think the idea has a lot of potential for fun. That said, unless these themes are going to be central to the campaign you may not need to try and rationalize every myth out there.

I look forward to seeing what comes of the ideas regardless though.

[matrix3]

What about time travel? Could some of the ancient gods or the magics attributed to the ancient druids or the myths of Atlantis be errant time travellers?

[CrosshairCollie]

Here would be my questions before delving too deeply into this thought experiment.
Will it have an impact on the campaign? If so to what extent? An entire campaign could be spun around these ideas. If the game's focus is centered around exploring the realities behind the myths then yes I believe it could be a extremely fun campaign and well worth the effort.

It's partly that, partly my own admission that I am becoming rapidly incapable of looking past my personal objective reality in dealing with fictional modern-day universes. I have trouble, say, playing a character who believes in magic in a standard Champions game despite the fact that she's interacted with Witchcraft twice and met Samhain. I find myself unable to suspend my disbelief that far anymore as I become more cynical, jaded and, in all honesty, angry in real life.


Is there an overall feel you are trying to achieve by using the updated myths? Will it just be part of the background filler or will it have an in game effect on the campaign as a whole?

I'm really not sure. Part of it may be just challenging assumptions.


(This is less of a campaign design question and more of a storyline question but something that first came to mind when reading the post.) Will the real myths be absolute? That is to say all myths were either based on something more "scientific" or were flat out wrong or will there be some blend of them both? For example: The mutants who feed of blood and are the root of vampire legend. Vlad Tepes not withstanding. What if at some point through the course of the game this is proven inaccurate? At some the players encounter a new strain of vampire with abilities more closely related to legend and not nearly easily explained? Would this add or detract from what you are imagining?

I don't even know if I would do that. I would make sure that I had the explanation in mind, and that it was in-line with the rest of the universe (perhaps the vampire is a genius and created a device that uses ultrasonics to manipulate bats, though it wouldn't be immediately obvious). Some real myths would simply be wrong, though ... pure fantasy. Atlantis, for example, was pure fable. :)


Overall, I think the idea has a lot of potential for fun. That said, unless these themes are going to be central to the campaign you may not need to try and rationalize every myth out there.

I look forward to seeing what comes of the ideas regardless though.

It's still kind of an early thought, just brainstorming. I do appreciate the input. :)

[CrosshairCollie]

What about time travel? Could some of the ancient gods or the magics attributed to the ancient druids or the myths of Atlantis be errant time travellers?

That opens up far too many paradoxes for me to want to play with. Time travel is just an ugly, ugly concept. :)

[Kenn]

My concern would be that it shuts off some types of origins for characters. If you have a unified origin in mind for the campaign, or your players don't mind, it's not a problem. But some players tend to favour the "Fantasy" side of super heroes while some favour the "Sci-Fi" side.

[CrosshairCollie]

My concern would be that it shuts off some types of origins for characters. If you have a unified origin in mind for the campaign, or your players don't mind, it's not a problem. But some players tend to favour the "Fantasy" side of super heroes while some favour the "Sci-Fi" side.

I know. The upside is, there's always character ignorance. Rahne 'Wolfsbane' Sinclair thought she was a real werewolf until she found out she was a mutant, f'rinstance.

[Clonus]

I ran a game in which "magic" did not exist. But I wouldn't have done it except that none of the PCs happened to give me a magic character. It didn't make much of a difference although I amused myself with rules for the disease that causes both vampirism and lycanthropy. Vampires could be killed with a strong dose of antibiotics.

[CrosshairCollie]

I ran a game in which "magic" did not exist. But I wouldn't have done it except that none of the PCs happened to give me a magic character. It didn't make much of a difference although I amused myself with rules for the disease that causes both vampirism and lycanthropy. Vampires could be killed with a strong dose of antibiotics.

Hmm. Vampires could, I suppose, have the ability to transmit a retrovirus that would give other people the genetic sequence ... undoing it would be a bear, but not impossible.

[OddHat]

Philip Jose Farmer's standard Wold Newton universe does exactly this, and even the official Wold Newton Superhero Universe doesn't depart much.

"Magic" is just what ignorant people call the Psychic Sciences and scientific devices beyond their ken.

"Superman" adventured only intermittently, his time taken up by his career as a reporter and eventually by raising a family. He couldn't fly, and could only (only?) lift about 15 tons.

Gilgamesh, Hercules, Magni, and many more of the Muscle-man Heroes of myth were just one time traveling immortal (John Clayton), and most of his deeds have been hopelessly exaggerated.

It's a fun game to play. My own timeline is lifted from it and modified to my own tastes, but I follow the same principle of re-working myth and fiction so that it (sort of) makes sense together.

The official Wold Newton site is here.
http://www.pjfarmer.com/woldnewton/Pulp2.htm

[OddHat]

It's partly that, partly my own admission that I am becoming rapidly incapable of looking past my personal objective reality in dealing with fictional modern-day universes. I have trouble, say, playing a character who believes in magic in a standard Champions game despite the fact that she's interacted with Witchcraft twice and met Samhain. I find myself unable to suspend my disbelief that far anymore as I become more cynical, jaded and, in all honesty, angry in real life.

I simplify my myths and magic in my games, as compared to many Superhero Universes. Mostly, I do so because it's fun, and to keep a consistent feeling in the game. I want Gods, Monsters, Magic, Flying Men who Shoot Lasers, etc. However, I feel that limiting the number of historically "real" pantheons of so-called Gods, monsters, etc, keeps the games more interesting. Limitations help to define a setting.

So, if you're going to have fun with it, I say go for it.

On the other hand, you sound like you may just be sick of Superheroes or Fantasy in general. When that has been the case with me, I've found it more fun to run entirely different genres for a while, or just take a break from gaming. A good Action, Pulp or Cyberpunk game can give a nice breather from the capes. After I come back, I tend to feel better about my game worlds.

Just my 2 cents and all that.

[CrosshairCollie]

*sigh*

Why is it, every time I think I'm having a new idea, it's been done?

[csyphrett]

I have seen this done for cartoons where every mythical monster is an alien. I think the main one I remember is Rosswell for BND.

It seems to me that cutting out all magic will lead to a world very much like Wild Cards where every power is psionic in nature and caused by altered DNA. And some people just don't like Wild Cards.

Like ODDhat said, you might just need to take a break from superheroes and play some other genre for a bit to recharge.
CES

[Cancer]

I would be way too tempted to embed into a game-world based on a premise like this something which is a fundamental contradiction, e.g., there cannot be any gods or underlying legends, yet the certain incontrovertably real past events require that some gods/legends/supermen did exist at the time. And, discovering/exposing that causes the fabric of "reality" to be threatened, with growing chaos and disintegration of physical, social, and spiritual order. Like Ragnarok, but with the cataclysm being of greater magnitude.

But, I'm a straightforward, cheerful sort of guy. :rolleyes:

[OddHat]

I would be way too tempted to embed into a game-world based on a premise like this something which is a fundamental contradiction, e.g., there cannot be any gods or underlying legends, yet the certain incontrovertably real past events require that some gods/legends/supermen did exist at the time. And, discovering/exposing that causes the fabric of "reality" to be threatened, with growing chaos and disintegration of physical, social, and spiritual order. Like Ragnarok, but with the cataclysm being of greater magnitude.

But, I'm a straightforward, cheerful sort of guy. :rolleyes:

I've sometimes thought of setting a campaign at the end of the Vedic cycles. Mankind has been reduced to ignorant, violent dwarfs living in caves. The characters discover a cache of survival equipment and teaching machinery from a previous age, and must use their new "power" to prevent the end of their cycle of time. Of course, at the end of the campaign, if they succeed, it means the death of what's left of Humanity and eventually the final heat death of the Universe.

Then I have a coffee and feel better.

[Dynamo]

Here's my take:
[...]a kind of 'vampire' that was just a mutant who could only subsist on potassium; they tended to be pale, psionically active, and of course, drank blood.This is interesting.


King Arthur, if he existed, was just a guy, and Excalibur was just a pigsticker. Merlin, say, was at best a psychic, at worst merely a charlatan.This is boring.


There was no Atlantis[...]Boring again.


[...]but there could be a Loch Ness monster, but it would be a mutated lizard, not a mythical beast or timelost plesiosaur.And back to interesting.

Just pulling the fantastic elements out of legends is an interesting mental exercise but doesn't make for engaging backstory for an inherently fantastic genre. Unifying the fantastic elements in legends so that they support a single-source superpowered setting makes it engaging again.

Whether the source of superpowers is mutations, genetic seeding by the "Ancients", magical surge, undead contagion, divine descent, or the Mazarin-Rashoud node (see Aberrant), tying it into mythical events, and providing various ways for the PCs to learn about said tie-ins, strengthens your setting's backstory.

[CrosshairCollie]

Well, since there wasn't a King Arthur or a Merlin or an Atlantis, at least making the former and median historical figures is a step up. :)

[Certified]

We all know Atlantis is just a very large base bought with uncontrolled EDM...

[OddHat]

*sigh*

Why is it, every time I think I'm having a new idea, it's been done?

We're closing on 200 years of Science Fiction and Fantasy now, or we're well past 10000 years if you count myth and folk tales; We're all mostly looking for new ways to tell old stories. The trick is doing it entertainingly. ;)

[OddHat]

Well, since there wasn't a King Arthur or a Merlin or an Atlantis, at least making the former and median historical figures is a step up. :)

There are a bunch of good historical candidates for Arthur, though I've always liked Alfred the Great or Caractacus as candidates for the "truth hidden in myth".

For that matter, I've always liked the ancient Minoan civilization as a candidate for the "real" Atlantis. :)

[teh bunneh]

I dunno. I think you could just, as part of your campaign guidelines, say "Mutants and tech-based characters only" and "superhumans have only been around since (insert your cutoff date here)." If someone says he wants to play the great-whatever-grandson of King Arthur, just veto the suggestion 'cause Arthur is only a myth in this setting. I've played and run in games where there were no alternate dimensions or gods or magic, and it was never really a big deal.

[Hermit]

*sigh*

Why is it, every time I think I'm having a new idea, it's been done?

What Oddhat said. It is very hard to come up with a truly original and GOOD idea... and frankly, if you have to choose between one of them, go for good ;) Which, it seems you may have done. You can still put your own touches, your own embellishments, and so on. Do not be discouraged, even the 'geniuses' were often just improving on the wheel.

[OddHat]

I dunno. I think you could just, as part of your campaign guidelines, say "Mutants and tech-based characters only" and "superhumans have only been around since (insert your cutoff date here)." If someone says he wants to play the great-whatever-grandson of King Arthur, just veto the suggestion 'cause Arthur is only a myth in this setting. I've played and run in games where there were no alternate dimensions or gods or magic, and it was never really a big deal.

Oh sure, be all minimalist and rational about it. ;)

It is worth noting that a fair of game and fictional settings with Superheroes take a simple "Powers come from X" approach, and actively avoid the traditional Everything Was Real approach (Wild Cards, Gestalt, Aberrant, etc).

[Kenn]

For that matter, I've always liked the ancient Minoan civilization as a candidate for the "real" Atlantis. :)

My reply in an Atlantis thread: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1511690#post1511690

[teh bunneh]

Oh sure, be all minimalist and rational about it. ;)

Sorry, I forgot that sort of nonsense isn't allowed on teh intarwebz. ;)

Re-reading the OP, it strikes me that perhaps what he is saying is that all the old myths and legends actually are true, it's just that they weren't because of supernatural influences. Zeus and Odin existed, but they weren't gods, they were just really powerful mutants. King Arthur wasn't chosen by the God or Avalon, he was just the age's most kickass warrior. In ancient times, they didn't have the knowledge to explain these things, so they just called it "Magic." Today, we understand that most of that stuff has a scientific explaination.

Which, if that's what he wants, sounds like it could make a pretty decent setting. "Mutants have always existed alongside humanity. Sometimes they were seen as gods; sometimes as devils. Today we know that they are merely genetically different than the average man -- but that genetic quirk makes all the difference, changing a normal person into one with incredible power that sets him apart from the rest of humanity. Which will you be -- defender of civilization or the wrath of destruction?" :rockon:

[CrosshairCollie]

Sorry, I forgot that sort of nonsense isn't allowed on teh intarwebz. ;)

Re-reading the OP, it strikes me that perhaps what he is saying is that all the old myths and legends actually are true, it's just that they weren't because of supernatural influences. Zeus and Odin existed, but they weren't gods, they were just really powerful mutants. King Arthur wasn't chosen by the God or Avalon, he was just the age's most kickass warrior. In ancient times, they didn't have the knowledge to explain these things, so they just called it "Magic." Today, we understand that most of that stuff has a scientific explaination.

Which, if that's what he wants, sounds like it could make a pretty decent setting. "Mutants have always existed alongside humanity. Sometimes they were seen as gods; sometimes as devils. Today we know that they are merely genetically different than the average man -- but that genetic quirk makes all the difference, changing a normal person into one with incredible power that sets him apart from the rest of humanity. Which will you be -- defender of civilization or the wrath of destruction?" :rockon:

Yes-and-no. Some of it would be outright fiction, some of it would just be exaggeration. I had the thought at work today that Arthur might had magnetic or other metal-manipulating powers, which is why nobody else could pull the Sword from the (Lode)Stone, for example.

Atlantis, however, would be an outright fairy tale. :) You do certainly have the gist of it, though.

[Clonus]

Sorry, I forgot that sort of nonsense isn't allowed on teh intarwebz. ;)

Re-reading the OP, it strikes me that perhaps what he is saying is that all the old myths and legends actually are true, it's just that they weren't because of supernatural influences. Zeus and Odin existed, but they weren't gods, they were just really powerful mutants. King Arthur wasn't chosen by the God or Avalon, he was just the age's most kickass warrior. In ancient times, they didn't have the knowledge to explain these things, so they just called it "Magic." Today, we understand that most of that stuff has a scientific explaination.

Which, if that's what he wants, sounds like it could make a pretty decent setting. "Mutants have always existed alongside humanity. Sometimes they were seen as gods; sometimes as devils. Today we know that they are merely genetically different than the average man -- but that genetic quirk makes all the difference, changing a normal person into one with incredible power that sets him apart from the rest of humanity. :rockon:Which will you be -- defender of civilization or the wrath of destruction?"

In the romance novel series that started with Aphrodite's Girdle the superheroes (who currently work in secret but despite that wear capes because one of them invented antigravity flight capes) are the hidden reality behind Greek mythology. At one time they were worshipped as gods and goddesses but when Zeus died, they adopted a lower profile. Despite that they did have one of them who like to fly around at Christmas and give toys to children, and the modern image of a comic book superhero is inspired by humans who caught a glimpse of another one in action.

[McCoy]

Something that filters through my cerebellum from time to time is the concept of running a superhero game in a universe where every myth and folk tale is not true; most of them are outright wrong, with a few attributed to more 'mundane' aspects.

For example, in 4E Champs universe, there was a kind of 'vampire' that was just a mutant who could only subsist on potassium; they tended to be pale, psionically active, and of course, drank blood. While these were alongside traditional vampires in the CU, in the world I'm contemplating, that would have been the only 'real' vampire, though the rather limited intellects of the Dark Ages would have conflated them into what we call the 'traditional' vampire myths nowadays. Vlad Tepes might have existed, and been one of these vampires ... but he was alive, not undead, and couldn't generate more vampires.

No magic, of course. At all.

King Arthur, if he existed, was just a guy, and Excalibur was just a pigsticker. Merlin, say, was at best a psychic, at worst merely a charlatan. There was no Atlantis, but there could be a Loch Ness monster, but it would be a mutated lizard, not a mythical beast or timelost plesiosaur.

I'm pondering taking the Star Trek route and have the various pantheons instead be aliens, even though there's no concrete evidence of alien life, either ... I'm vacillating on that one.

Basically, for every mythological entry, I'd need to figure out if it was just a story, or if it had some basis in fact, and if the latter, exactly what it was. Unfortunately, considering the sheer amount of 'Fantasy Kitchen Sink'-ing that most superhero games do ... that's a lot of stuff, even if you consider the aspects of it that regularly crop up in USA-based supers games.

The question, of course, is 'is it worth the effort'? It would create more focus, in a way, since you wouldn't have mages and mutants and aliens and all poking around at the same time. On the other hand, it stifles a lot of common plot elements.

Thoughts (and other ideas for things I'd need to account for)?
What I'm finding strange is that you'd be throwing out magic, but keeping psionics.

[CrosshairCollie]

What I'm finding strange is that you'd be throwing out magic, but keeping psionics.

Why? They're completely different, at least in far as 'mutant psionic powers' makes sense to me and 'mutant magical powers', well, don't.

[OddHat]

Why? They're completely different, at least in far as 'mutant psionic powers' makes sense to me and 'mutant magical powers', well, don't.

"Psionics are magic in a new bottle." ;)

Not that there's anything wrong with choosing your bottles. I've always run with the idea that Magic, Psionics and Miracles were three ways of describing the same phenomena.

[OddHat]

In the romance novel series that started with Aphrodite's Girdle the superheroes (who currently work in secret but despite that wear capes because one of them invented antigravity flight capes) are the hidden reality behind Greek mythology. At one time they were worshipped as gods and goddesses but when Zeus died, they adopted a lower profile. Despite that they did have one of them who like to fly around at Christmas and give toys to children, and the modern image of a comic book superhero is inspired by humans who caught a glimpse of another one in action.

Who's the author? Amazon isn't coming up with a hit on that title, and it sounds like a series SatinKitty would enjoy. :)

[CrosshairCollie]

"Psionics are magic in a new bottle." ;)

Not that there's anything wrong with choosing your bottles. I've always run with the idea that Magic, Psionics and Miracles were three ways of describing the same phenomena.

I tend to think of them as completely separate. I wouldn't have a Drain vs Psionics affect a magician, because his special effect is Magic, not Psionics.

[Clonus]

Why? They're completely different, at least in far as 'mutant psionic powers' makes sense to me and 'mutant magical powers', well, don't.

Yes, but that's just a difference of flavour. Psi is a pseudoscientific justification for magic. Thus in flavour it matches nicely with the pseudoscience of mutant superpowers. That's why leaving magic out doesn't make much difference.

[McCoy]

Why? They're completely different, at least in far as 'mutant psionic powers' makes sense to me and 'mutant magical powers', well, don't.
They both seem legendary to me. Never seen convincing evidence for the existance of either.

[edit] Psionics are "grandfathered" in Science Fiction because John Campbell (who coined the word IIRC) believed they existed. AFAICT he was wrong.

[OddHat]

I tend to think of them as completely separate. I wouldn't have a Drain vs Psionics affect a magician, because his special effect is Magic, not Psionics.

Again, depends on how you look at them. One man prays / bargains with the spirits to gain the power of flight, another lifts himself with the power of his mind; how we choose to describe the unreal but dramatically useful is mostly a matter of flavor. And again, I'm not suggesting my preferred flavor has to be anyone else's.

David Gemmel's take is my own preferred standard; there are powers of the human mind that some people can access much more strongly than others. There are disciplines one can learn to focus these abilities, and drugs and devices that can enhance them. There are also non-physical and extra-dimensional entities that can be contacted by and bargained with using these abilities. One person might call these abilities Magic, another Psionics, and a third Miracles; all three may be correct, from a certain point of view.

[Clonus]

Who's the author? Amazon isn't coming up with a hit on that title, and it sounds like a series SatinKitty would enjoy. :)


Sorry, Aphrodite's Passion by Julie Kenner

[OddHat]

Sorry, Aphrodite's Passion by Julie Kenner

Thanks, I'll check it out.

[Certified]

Fun with Psychics

Enough history to kill a horse ... (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vision_remota/esp_visionremota_9b.htm)

From six miles away with only a clipping from the mane.

Did a quick search, you can google the people and events they talk about in the article. Since it looks like this is from an archive to dig deeper you may need to. I just want to know how many character points a tin foil hat costs.

- - -

In most champion games I tend to go with as long as the end effect is the same describe it how you want, super science, psionics, magic take your pick. That said with the 6th World Setting I took a lot of time to make sure that there was a clear difference between the two both in the feel, game play and core mechanics so that either would add flavor to the over all character.

[CrosshairCollie]

They both seem legendary to me. Never seen convincing evidence for the existance of either.

[edit] Psionics are "grandfathered" in Science Fiction because John Campbell (who coined the word IIRC) believed they existed. AFAICT he was wrong.

Agreed, but nobody's ever shouted 'flame on' and become surrounded in an aura of fire and flown away, either. It's still a superhero game, so superpowers, by definition, have to work, and psychic supers are (relatively) commonplace. The primary difference is that not just anybody can sit down, contemplate their navels, and become a psychic; you have to either be a mutant or have a power-inducing circumstance.

I can see a random mutation or radiation exposure or genetic tampering creating a psychic; I can't see such creating a wizard.

[OddHat]

I can see a random mutation or radiation exposure or genetic tampering creating a psychic; I can't see such creating a wizard.

Merlin's powers were genetic (son of the Devil). In real world belief, Shamans traditionally gained their powers through near-death experiences (accident induced powers) and/or drug use (chemical induced powers).

Same thing, different terminology for the modern version.

[CrosshairCollie]

Merlin's powers were genetic (son of the Devil). In real world belief, Shamans traditionally gained their powers through near-death experiences (accident induced powers) and/or drug use (chemical induced powers).

Same thing, different terminology for the modern version.

Well, no devils, so Merlin's still out, but I'd give you the shamans. They'd probably call their powers magic or shamanism or whatever, but at the end of the day, that's just because they don't understand mutations. :)

[OddHat]

Well, no devils, so Merlin's still out, but I'd give you the shamans. They'd probably call their powers magic or shamanism or whatever, but at the end of the day, that's just because they don't understand mutations. :)

If you wanted Merlin (and no reason that you should) you could either decide that he was a historical general or priest with no powers (popular in Arthur-rehashes) or the son of a mutant or alien with a devil-like appearance.

(In my own campaign, he was one of a group created through the experiments of an extraterrestrial race; Arthur was, of course, the amnesiac Corwin of Amber). ;)

[CrosshairCollie]

If you wanted Merlin (and no reason that you should) you could either decide that he was a historical general or priest with no powers (popular in Arthur-rehashes) or the son of a mutant or alien with a devil-like appearance.

I'm still debating on aliens, though using them as the various gods works great, especially for the 'descent from above' entrances ("Beam me down, I have tribute to collect.") More than likely I'd keep the group small ... say, every sun god (Apollo, Ra, Amaterasu, etc) was the same alien, every storm god (Zeus, Thor, Raiden, etc) was the same one. And they can change shape, of course. :)

Though, looking at it more in-depth, I think eliminating magic, alternate dimensions, and demons helps keep things on a human level. You don't have, say, alien invasions, or demonic incursions or possessions ... all your opponents are (fundamentally) human and have human motivations and are, in all likelihood, easier to relate to.


(In my own campaign, he was one of a group created through the experiments of an extraterrestrial race; Arthur was, of course, the amnesiac Corwin of Amber). ;)

I'm going to assume that it won't surprise you when I say I have no idea who that is. :)

[McCoy]

Agreed, but nobody's ever shouted 'flame on' and become surrounded in an aura of fire and flown away, either. It's still a superhero game, so superpowers, by definition, have to work, and psychic supers are (relatively) commonplace. The primary difference is that not just anybody can sit down, contemplate their navels, and become a psychic; you have to either be a mutant or have a power-inducing circumstance.

I can see a random mutation or radiation exposure or genetic tampering creating a psychic; I can't see such creating a wizard.
Your campagine, your rules, just seemed to be an inconsisancy to me.

Likewise if you decide to go no aliens. The term superhero comes from the first of the genre, Kal El of Krypton.

It seems that what you want is a Watchman campagine, Dr. Manhattan the only true super and everyone else gadgeteers or skilled normals.

[OddHat]

I'm still debating on aliens, though using them as the various gods works great, especially for the 'descent from above' entrances ("Beam me down, I have tribute to collect.") More than likely I'd keep the group small ... say, every sun god (Apollo, Ra, Amaterasu, etc) was the same alien, every storm god (Zeus, Thor, Raiden, etc) was the same one. And they can change shape, of course. :)

I use "Most of the Thunder Gods were one guy" theme myself, though not through shape changing. The theory of Proto-Indo-European mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion) is fact in my setting, with the addition that many myths are based on the real activities of a small number of immortal metahumans. So, for example, Perkwunos "real" exploits became the seeds of stories of gods including Jove and Thore.


Though, looking at it more in-depth, I think eliminating magic, alternate dimensions, and demons helps keep things on a human level. You don't have, say, alien invasions, or demonic incursions or possessions ... all your opponents are (fundamentally) human and have human motivations and are, in all likelihood, easier to relate to.
Sure, eliminating Aliens and alternate dimensions can help focus the game world. I don't give them center stage myself, though I do have them out there.

Calling magic "psionics" doesn't eliminate it, it just gives it a certain flavor. (I know, agree to disagree and all that; I'll drop it).


I'm going to assume that it won't surprise you when I say I have no idea who that is. :)

Character from the Roger Zelazny series "Chronicles of Amber." I steal from all over when world building. :)

[moquif]

Something that filters through my cerebellum from time to time is the concept of running a superhero game in a universe where every myth and folk tale is not true; most of them are outright wrong, with a few attributed to more 'mundane' aspects.

I'm curious about how far back and recent you're going and if you're including modern and not so modern myths and folk tales. If the ancient gods like Zeus are just stories, what about Christ? Are Budda and Dali Llama mere psychics? Are good luck charms or relics really simple things with a fantastic tale attached to them?

[OddHat]

I'm curious about how far back and recent you're going and if you're including modern and not so modern myths and folk tales. If the ancient gods like Zeus are just stories, what about Christ? Are Budda and Dali Llama mere psychics? Are good luck charms or relics really simple things with a fantastic tale attached to them?

It's traditional in these timelines not to touch on Christ; too much of a chance of offending Christian players and readers, even done with the best of intentions.

[CrosshairCollie]

Your campagine, your rules, just seemed to be an inconsisancy to me.

Fair enough, but I don't really see it ... basically, put Dr. Strange and Jean Grey under a 'power sensor'. Jean Grey pings, Dr. Strange doesn't. Jean is an acceptable character, Strange isn't, because Strange has no powers; just magic, which is an external force.


Likewise if you decide to go no aliens. The term superhero comes from the first of the genre, Kal El of Krypton.

The term would translate from the comics of the world, more than likely. :)


It seems that what you want is a Watchman campagine, Dr. Manhattan the only true super and everyone else gadgeteers or skilled normals.

I don't know anything about the Watchmen, so can't comment in detail, but ... there would be more than one super. All the PCs and the majority of people they fight, for instance. It just wouldn't be the Marvel/DC Universe Kitchen Sink where you have wizards hanging out with gods and robots fighting against an invasion of demons from another dimension.

To use bits from the Champions book, pg 44, these would be the acceptable sources of superpowers for this game:
Genetic Manipulation
Mutation
Super-Science
Training

Inappropriate sources:
Extradimensional Energies
Magic and Mysticism
Supernatural Forces

At this point, Alien Species is still on the fence; I'm not sure if I'd include it or not. Psionics (mentioned in the book) is a power set, not a power source, so doesn't get counted on either list. If you have psionics from Genetic Manipulation or Mutation, then yes. Psionics from Supernatural or Mystical stuff, no.

[CrosshairCollie]

I'm curious about how far back and recent you're going and if you're including modern and not so modern myths and folk tales. If the ancient gods like Zeus are just stories, what about Christ?

That's probably a big one. The options are, of course, fictional, one of the aforementioned alien gods, or just a normal guy who was a heck of a public speaker, or a mutant. I pondered, at work today, four 'strata' of mutation; Latent (powers don't awaken without a trigger), Basic (powers awaken at puberty), Advanced (like Basic, but always with high stats), and an unnamed tier of immortal/indestructible mutants. Could file Christ under that last category, I suppose.

Though Oddhat is right, I'll likely not go into it if I run the game, unless prompted.


Are Budda and Dali Llama mere psychics?

Probably just normal people. Just really smart/wise normal people.


Are good luck charms or relics really simple things with a fantastic tale attached to them?

Yup.

[OddHat]

Fair enough, but I don't really see it ... basically, put Dr. Strange and Jean Grey under a 'power sensor'. Jean Grey pings, Dr. Strange doesn't. Jean is an acceptable character, Strange isn't, because Strange has no powers; just magic, which is an external force.

Or Dr. Strange is a really powerful psionic, trained in a system of meditation and visualization techniques developed over the centuries. He calls it Magic, and thinks of it that way, just as a Kung Fu master thinks of intra-abdominal pressure manipulating breathing techniques, leverage, meditation and visualization as Chi.

[SSgt Baloo]

I amused myself with rules for the disease that causes both vampirism and lycanthropy. Vampires could be killed with a strong dose of antibiotics.

That's all well and good until the antibiotic-resistant strain of vampires begins cropping up. Perhaps they've fed on people who were undergoing treatment with antibiotics -- enough over time to render them immune but not kill them.

Otherwise the best first-aid for a vampire bite would be a dose of penicillin (or similar).

[CrosshairCollie]

Or Dr. Strange is a really powerful psionic, trained in a system of meditation and visualization techniques developed over the centuries. He calls it Magic, and thinks of it that way, just as a Kung Fu master thinks of intra-abdominal pressure manipulating breathing techniques, leverage, meditation and visualization as Chi.

In this game world, he could most assuredly think of it that way. But if he ever got run under a power sensor (if there is such a thing), it would ping, and if genetic encryption was sufficiently advanced, they could just tell him, "You're a mutant, Harry." That's the difference. An individual character may have his delusions, but the truth is entirely different, Arthur C. Clarke's law notwithstanding. If you slap that Dr. Strange in a device clearly designated 'mutant power inhibitor', he's hosed, whereas the standard Marvel Dr. Strange would be unaffected.

This is hypothetical of course; I'm not sure the world would have power inhibitors or sensors or what not.

[OddHat]

In this game world, he could most assuredly think of it that way. But if he ever got run under a power sensor (if there is such a thing), it would ping, and if genetic encryption was sufficiently advanced, they could just tell him, "You're a mutant, Harry." That's the difference. An individual character may have his delusions, but the truth is entirely different, Arthur C. Clarke's law notwithstanding. If you slap that Dr. Strange in a device clearly designated 'mutant power inhibitor', he's hosed, whereas the standard Marvel Dr. Strange would be unaffected.

The Marvel Universe Dr. Strange ultimately gets his powers from genetic manipulation performed by the Celestials, just like every other Marvel Mystic, and indeed like every Marvel Mutant, Eternal, Inhuman, Deviant, or Mutate. The gods are, of course, aliens. See Earth X. ;)

[Clonus]

In this game world, he could most assuredly think of it that way. But if he ever got run under a power sensor (if there is such a thing), it would ping, and if genetic encryption was sufficiently advanced, they could just tell him, "You're a mutant, Harry." That's the difference. An individual character may have his delusions, but the truth is entirely different, Arthur C. Clarke's law notwithstanding. If you slap that Dr. Strange in a device clearly designated 'mutant power inhibitor', he's hosed, whereas the standard Marvel Dr. Strange would be unaffected.


Then again so would the standard Marvel Dr. Richards.

[moquif]

It's traditional in these timelines not to touch on Christ; too much of a chance of offending Christian players and readers, even done with the best of intentions.

I remember in GURPS Supers they suggested most of the famous people in history were mutants. Christ was one of them and so was Galileo and Sun Tzu if memory serves. There was some controversy about that. Personally I would explain it as Disguise 19- mundane skill and leave it at that.

[McCoy]

I don't know anything about the Watchmen,
Highly recomended. It was a 12 issue limited series in 1986 through 87. The trade paperback is still in print, 20 years later. THAT'S how good it is.

It follows a, well, non-group of constumed adventurers who are pretty iron age in tone, and flashes back to their Golden Age predicessors, The Minutemen. The group is never known as the Watchmen, the title is from Juvenal, sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes, "But who will watch the watchmen?"

The thing that brought it up in this context was that there was no magic, no mutants, one psychic who if this had been a game would have been an NPC, and a rumored alien invasion turned out to be a hoax. The characters are gifted athletes, martial artists, and gadgeteers, more Batman and Iron Man than Superman or Spiderman.

The one exception is Dr. Manhattan, who basically gained a Cosmic VPP in a lab accident.

Again, while not exactly what you are planning, you might look at it for some inspiration or a diffent sort of superhero universe. Or you might look at it because it is the best superhero story ever written, period, and well worth your time.

[wrestlinggeek]

Highly recomended. It was a 12 issue limited series in 1986 through 87. The trade paperback is still in print, 20 years later. THAT'S how good it is.

It follows a, well, non-group of constumed adventurers who are pretty iron age in tone, and flashes back to their Golden Age predicessors, The Minutemen. The group is never known as the Watchmen, the title is from Juvenal, sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes, "But who will watch the watchmen?"

The thing that brought it up in this context was that there was no magic, no mutants, one psychic who if this had been a game would have been an NPC, and a rumored alien invasion turned out to be a hoax. The characters are gifted athletes, martial artists, and gadgeteers, more Batman and Iron Man than Superman or Spiderman.

The one exception is Dr. Manhattan, who basically gained a Cosmic VPP in a lab accident.

Again, while not exactly what you are planning, you might look at it for some inspiration or a diffent sort of superhero universe. Or you might look at it because it is the best superhero story ever written, period, and well worth your time.

And I'm praying they get the movie right. Though, from what I've seen so far, it's pretty spot-on. If it's half as good as the books, I'll be happy.

[CrosshairCollie]

The Marvel Universe Dr. Strange ultimately gets his powers from genetic manipulation performed by the Celestials, just like every other Marvel Mystic, and indeed like every Marvel Mutant, Eternal, Inhuman, Deviant, or Mutate. The gods are, of course, aliens. See Earth X. ;)

Huh? Unless they've done some massive retconning while I wasn't looking (admittedly, a possibility), Strange was just a normal guy who learned magic, he had no abnormal genetics. He has no powers, he just learned magic. That wouldn't work in the game world, because powers cannot be taught; no genetic twist, no powers. You can't teach psionics, even if you call it magic unless the target happens to be a mutant and happens to awaken during the training and that mutation happens to be psi-potential. Not something conducive to founding a centuries-old mystic tradition, when it simply doesn't work. :)

I'm not sure why we aren't understanding each other here.

[CrosshairCollie]

It follows a, well, non-group of constumed adventurers who are pretty iron age in tone,

This, in and of itself, is sufficient reason for me to know I won't like it. :) Looking at the Wikipedia entry, it looks very heavy and depressing ... not my thing.

[Certified]

Huh? Unless they've done some massive retconning while I wasn't looking (admittedly, a possibility), Strange was just a normal guy who learned magic, he had no abnormal genetics. He has no powers, he just learned magic. That wouldn't work in the game world, because powers cannot be taught; no genetic twist, no powers. You can't teach psionics, even if you call it magic unless the target happens to be a mutant and happens to awaken during the training and that mutation happens to be psi-potential. Not something conducive to founding a centuries-old mystic tradition, when it simply doesn't work. :)

I'm not sure why we aren't understanding each other here.

Okay, so I'm not having any luck finding it but the Celestials place an embryo inside the earth thing, there is a What If with a second short at the end where the Celestials come to earth creating the eternals and the deviants (I think) they also alter the genetic structure of what would become man . I wish I could tell you what issue it was but I think this is what they expanded on when developing Earth-X.

[Certified]

And now it's time for the super geek moment...

What If #23 (October 1080)
What if the Hulk had become a barbarian?

After the main story you have an Untold Tales of the Marvel Universe: The First Celestial Host.

Sorry had to dig through the old comics collection for that one.

[OddHat]

Huh? Unless they've done some massive retconning while I wasn't looking (admittedly, a possibility), Strange was just a normal guy who learned magic, he had no abnormal genetics. He has no powers, he just learned magic. That wouldn't work in the game world, because powers cannot be taught; no genetic twist, no powers. You can't teach psionics, even if you call it magic unless the target happens to be a mutant and happens to awaken during the training and that mutation happens to be psi-potential. Not something conducive to founding a centuries-old mystic tradition, when it simply doesn't work. :)

I'm not sure why we aren't understanding each other here.

I understand your campaign setting. It's a single source setting, which is all puppies and kittens. :)

Earth X is an Alternate Future Marvel Miniseries (one of three) that brings together ideas in Marvel that have been floating around since Kirby. All Superpowers, including the ability to use Magic, are ultimately from the same source; Celestial modification of Human genetic material. Magic is just one name for the discipline that lets someone like Dr. Strange tap into the same powers as Professor X or Phoenix, as well as borrow power from extradimensional entities and the world around him. If he didn't have the genetic potential to manage it, he couldn't use it at all.

My comment that "Psionics are magic in a new bottle" is a straight observation, looking at both literature and the 19th Century spiritualist movement, which led directly to the 20th Century New Age movement and shaped the jargon and business of magic (Crystal Shops, "Occult" books, etc) of today. It doesn't apply only to your campaign (where reality works exactly as you like). The distinct separation between Psionics (magic with technobable), Magic, and Miracles is very recent historically, and not reliably observed outside of gaming.

In my own campaigns, I consider "Magic" to be a form of training for psionics, just as Karate, Gymnastics and Dance are training for muscles, bones, tendons and the nervous system. If you're not naturally gifted, all the training in the world won't make you a great dancer or martial artist (though you can become passable); if he doesn't have some natural psionic ability, all the training in the world can't make a character in my campaign into a great mage (though most people could, with commitment and time, learn a few minor tricks). Not insisting that anyone else accept that approach, just pointing it out as an option.

[SSgt Baloo]

In my own campaigns, I consider "Magic" to be a form of training for psionics, just as Karate, Gymnastics and Dance are training for muscles, bones, tendons and the nervous system. If you're not naturally gifted, all the training in the world won't make you a great dancer of martial artist (though you can become passable); if you don't have some natural psionic ability, all the training in the world can't make a character in my campaign into a great mage (though most people could, with commitment and time, learn a few minor tricks). Not insisting that anyone else accept that, just pointing it out as an option.

OddHat, You have rendered me redundant, if not completely obsolete. Repped. (Edit: I gotta spread some around, etc. Can somebody get him for me?)

[McCoy]

This, in and of itself, is sufficient reason for me to know I won't like it. :) Looking at the Wikipedia entry, it looks very heavy and depressing ... not my thing.
Heavy, yes, this is serious literature. Depressing? I didn't find it so. In fact I thought the ending was very upbeat. Can't say more without major spoilers.

[Lucius]

*sigh*

Why is it, every time I think I'm having a new idea, it's been done?

Because you don't read.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary is verbivorous.

[Lucius]

King Arthur, if he existed, was just a guy, and Excalibur was just a pigsticker. Merlin, say, was at best a psychic, at worst merely a charlatan.

Mind you, my scholarship is second hand, but -

It is my understanding that Merlin's story arose in a completely different part of Britain than Arthur's, and is of later date. Lancelot was originally from France, and a seperate character until his story was merged with Arthur's.

Merlin was a soothsayer before he was a wizard, and the earliest stories have him surviving a battle in which the carnage was so terrible it drove him mad, and in his madness he began to utter prophecy. So, for you, just an extreme case of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

Lucius Alexander

This is not a palindromedary tagline.

[nexus]

Do you plan on the PCs being traditional superheroes or more like explorers and investigators that uncover the truth* of things behind the smoke, mirrors and myths?

I think the idea has a great deal of potential. For example vampirism and lycanthropy as a disease or a mutation could explain why so many cultures have similar myths about blood drinkers and shape shifters.

*and of course a few things they'd rather not know and allot of things that need to stopped.

[CrosshairCollie]

Do you plan on the PCs being traditional superheroes or more like explorers and investigators that uncover the truth* of things behind the smoke, mirrors and myths?

That would at least be an element of it, yes. Kind of like how the FF would spend some of their time just ... exploring, in addition to villain fighting (though they'd frequently find plenty of things to fight during the explorations, too).

I'm not sure how to do this without time travel, though ...

[OddHat]

That would at least be an element of it, yes. Kind of like how the FF would spend some of their time just ... exploring, in addition to villain fighting (though they'd frequently find plenty of things to fight during the explorations, too).

I'm not sure how to do this without time travel, though ...

Let the PCs run into other groups intent on uncovering the Secret History, then have them look through the evidence the other guys have gathered. A few run ins with immortals can be fun as well. As a bonus, you can have some fun designing and printing out some of the newspaper articles, maps, pictures etc that they uncover.

[CrosshairCollie]

Let the PCs run into other groups intent on uncovering the Secret History, then have them look through the evidence the other guys have gathered. A few run ins with immortals can be fun as well. As a bonus, you can have some fun designing and printing out some of the newspaper articles, maps, pictures etc that they uncover.

Good thinking. Maybe they're trying to get genetic samples off a lot of historical/mythical supers, where feasible, to create a single (supposedly) unstoppable superbeing.

[nexus]

Good thinking. Maybe they're trying to get genetic samples off a lot of historical/mythical supers, where feasible, to create a single (supposedly) unstoppable superbeing.

Cool, reminds me of the origin of Serpentor in GI Joe.