Is this a legal build

[robertep]

Is this build legal
I want it to give me the ability to Abort to a "Cat Dance" ("Cat Dance" is a +4 DCV Dodge with FMove I built using the UMA rules) Maneuver in phases I already acted on
(IE:I use a full phase to do whatever and then on the same phase I get targeted by an AoE 1 Hex attack and I want to move away so I won't be affected by it)

[B]Master Dodge: Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Full Phase to reset; When being attacked by an AoE attack and can't Abort normally; +1/4) for up to 50 Active Points of "Cat Dance" (12 Active Points); Requires A PER(to perceive the threat and decide to act on it) Roll And A DEX(to actually act on the threat fast anough) Roll (-1/2), Limited Power Must use next available Phase to "recharge" the Trigger (-1/4)

TIA
R.E.P.

[ghost-angel]

Legal, sure. Just something I'd be wary of.

[robertep]

Or as another option instead of the previous one that will make it harder to hit me with AoE when I can't Abort to my Dodge (basically when I already acted in the same Phase)

Hard to Hit: Negative Combat Skill Levels (-6 to opponent's OCV), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (75 Active Points); Limited Power Only if I can't use an Abort Action (-1/2), Limited Power Only against AoE attacks (-1)

[Opal]

I wanted to say 'no,' but I think I should just say it doesn't make much sense to me.

You can't abort to movement. You can abort to that manuever, yes, but the manuever is simply useable with movement, not movement itself. If you can't move (because it's not your phase), you can get the DCV bonus, that's all. I assume the trigger idea is to activate a movement power. Maybe my eyes are getting old, but I don't see where there'a an actual movement power associated with it?

I've always thought it would be nice to have an enhanced Dive for Cover buildable through the martial arts rules. Allwing things like extra DCV, or bonus to the DEX roll, or not having to end the 'dive' prone. Certainly would be much simpler and less prone to abuse than a triggered movement power.


Hard to Hit makes a little more sense. Isn't the trigger the AE attack against you, though?

[ghost-angel]

No, you can't abort to movement. You can abort to that manuever, yes, but the manuever is simply useable with movement, not movement itself. If you can't move (because it's not your phase), you can get the DCV bonus, that's all. I assume the trigger idea is to activate a movement power. Maybe my eyes are getting old, but I don't see where there'a an actual movement power associated with it?

I've always thought it would be nice to have an enhanced Dive for Cover buildable through the martial arts rules. Allwing things like extra DCV, or bonus to the DEX roll, or not having to end the 'dive' prone. Certainly would be much simpler and less prone to abuse than a triggered movement power.

That's not what is built.

It's a Manuever with a Full Move Element (ala Flying Dodge) and a NPA:Trigger to engage it.

It's not an Abort to Movement.

[Opal]

OK. The Full Move element still just gives you the option to move farther than normal when using the manuever.

If one wanted to trigger movement, shouldn't the trigger be on the movement power?

Is there some obscure rule that lets you put advantages on a manuever, by multiplying it's active cost??

[ghost-angel]

OK. The Full Move element still just gives you the option to move farther than normal when using the manuever.

If one wanted to trigger movement, shouldn't the trigger be on the movement power?

Is there some obscure rule that lets you put advantages on a manuever, by multiplying it's active cost??

Yes, it's in the UMA and one of the few rules that should have been included in 5ER along with the Maneuver Creation Rules, also in UMA.

[Opal]

Bizarre. I must still have the 4E copy of UMA.

Or it's just my versionistis again. By the time the BBB hit, I'd played under all three previous editions, including the Champions II/III suplements, and the various other games, not to mention variants. Though most of the powers and rules are second nature to me, they're not always the most recent ones, and the I lose track of the more obscure stuff easily. FRED has only deepened the problem.

[pinecone]

I'd guess a slightly less ugly way is a Trigger Desolid build...but personally I pretty much consider the "One action per Phase" as sacred practice.....so I'd not allow it.

If you want to run away from danger...hold your phase...but that's just me.

The build as is basicly doubles your speed so that in it's self might raise "issues"....

[Opal]

IMX, yes, a character who depends on Dodge, Block, Dive for Cover, Desolidification, or other 'active' defenses does need a higher speed (and some good tactics from the player) to be effective,

And, if you compare something like this to that higher speed, it is a lot cheaper.

Of course, it hardly does everything a higher SPD would.

[robertep]

Thanks for the responses(I since then abandoned this build for a modified build based on the second build I posted in this thread)



I'd guess a slightly less ugly way is a Trigger Desolid build...but personally I pretty much consider the "One action per Phase" as sacred practice.....so I'd not allow it.

If you want to run away from danger...hold your phase...but that's just me.

The build as is basically doubles your speed so that in it's self might raise "issues"....

Thats why I added the require a full Phase to "Recharge" the Trigger so it will take up my next phase and just be like a normal abort with the added advantage of being able to do it even if you already acted that phase

(IE: I[the character] am in a combat against two opponents that already acted and I attack one of them and then out of the blue comes a third opponent and attacks me on the same phase I already acted on so I can't Abort but this power will allow me to "sacrifice" my next phase to Abort anyway)

EDIT:Just for completeness here is the build I went for

Warp Field Distortion effect: Negative Combat Skill Levels (-6 to opponent's OCV), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Ranged (+1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; When being attacked by AoE powers that target my Hex; +3/4) (75 Active Points);Requires A PER Roll And An Acrobatics Roll (-3/4), Instant (-1/2),

[pawsplay]

Or as another option instead of the previous one that will make it harder to hit me with AoE when I can't Abort to my Dodge (basically when I already acted in the same Phase)

Hard to Hit: Negative Combat Skill Levels (-6 to opponent's OCV), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (75 Active Points); Limited Power Only if I can't use an Abort Action (-1/2), Limited Power Only against AoE attacks (-1)





Negative skill levels have no Range. What you are looking for is Change Environment (Self Only).

[robertep]

Negative skill levels have no Range. What you are looking for is Change Environment (Self Only).
thats why I added the "Ranged" advantage and if I did do a "Change Environment" "Self Only" how would that help me if I wish to hinder the attacker ability to hit me even when he is using an AoE power??

[Cannon_Fodder]

I don't like it (not just because I like to hit this character with AoEs). You are trying to buy an abort in a phase where you have already used all your actions and not normally not allowed to abort. You just need to make sure that you are not in Line Of Sight to avoid AoEs, or move at a lower DEX. There are times acting last is a very good thing.

[Thia Halmades]

Opinion of whether this is some stanky cheese aside, the general review of the material on hand would be, simply:

1) Yes, reducing someone else's OCV is a Change Environment, especially if the SFX is something as CE friendly as 'gravity well.' NSLs are usually reserved for building cursed items or flawed items. In the argument of "two valid builds," I submit that NSLs in this case are not valid.

1a) You wouldn't make Change Environment Self Only (-1/2). that doesn't even make sense, although I may have missed something. :think: CE is an attack power and is designed to do precisely what you've described. Straight up.

2) Your original power "Cat Dance" is simply a renamed Flying Dodge. I'm very wary of what powers I allow triggers for, simply for this level of abuse. However, to answer the question about AOEs, Flying Dodge already handles this, because once you Abort to it, you get a full move, to wit:

-- If you're targeted by an AOE, and abort to Flying Dodge, your final effect is calculated based on the hex in which you land.

-- If you're targeted with a range weapon, your final cover modifiers and range modifiers are based on what cover you can dodge behind or your new distance from the target. And, the best part, is that it is a FULL MOVE. Not the usual half move.

[Kdansky]

First build: I'm not sure if it's legal, since using self-built FMove MAs and then adding Trigger is really tricky, but let me check if I'd allow it:

- Uses problematic FMove.
- Uses problematic Trigger.

No. I'd not allow it, but you could go for Desolid + Trigger, that's not so cheap. Smells across the pacific of blue cheese.

Second version: Not legal, I think. See Thia.

[robertep]

First Build(the triggered Dodge thing) is abandoned I will not use for various reasons given here and some of my own as well

after reading about the triggered Negative Combat Skill Levels remarks you had and you recommending me to use a CE instead I present this power to be Judged by this esteemed court of my peers (;-P)

__________________________________________________ ______________
*Warp Field Distortion Effect: Change Environment 1" radius, -6 OCV,
*Line Of Sight (+1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that
*takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates;
*+1) (75 Active Points);Instant (-1/2), Limited Power Only for Targeting my
*Hex with an AoE attack (-1/2).
__________________________________________________ ______________


The effect is that I have a Warp Field around me that makes me harder to hit even with AoE attacks (it not only make it harder to target me[which I already have through DCV bonuses] but also have a deflecting effect almost that will make attacks less likely to land at my Hex)

[Thia Halmades]

First Build(the triggered Dodge thing) is abandoned I will not use for various reasons given here and some of my own as well

after reading about the triggered Negative Combat Skill Levels remarks you had and you recommending me to use a CE instead I present this power to be Judged by this esteemed court of my pears (;-P)

__________________________________________________ ______________
*Warp Field Distortion Effect: Change Environment 1" radius, -6 OCV,
*Line Of Sight (+1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that
*takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates;
*+1) (75 Active Points);Instant (-1/2), Limited Power Only for Targeting my
*Hex with an AoE attack (-1/2).
__________________________________________________ ______________


The effect is that I have a Warp Field around me that makes me harder to hit even with AoE attacks (it not only make it harder to target me[which I already have through DCV bonuses] but also have a deflecting effect almost that will make attacks less likely to land at my Hex)

Erg, first, we're peers, not pears. That aside, this fails the whole SFX reasonability thing. You aren't surrounding YOURSELF with the field, you're surrounding THEM in the field. If you want to make YOURSELF harder to hit, those are 5 point CSLs, to raise DCV (a dedicated DCV CSL) which you can then apply modifiers too, such as "Costs END" and so on.

[jtelson]

Hmmm, how about Levels with DCV, UAA, AOE hex to increase the hex's DCV? (Then costs end, trigger etc.)

[robertep]

Erg, first, we're peers, not pears. That aside, this fails the whole SFX reasonability thing. You aren't surrounding YOURSELF with the field, you're surrounding THEM in the field. If you want to make YOURSELF harder to hit, those are 5 point CSLs, to raise DCV (a dedicated DCV CSL) which you can then apply modifiers too, such as "Costs END" and so on.

First I corrected the Pears to Peers thing :)
Second I already got anough DCV when my main power is active (Reached cap) so this is not what I'm trying to make.
What I'm trying to make is a power that will make AoE powers harder to target my Hex (since my high DCV doesn't help me against them) so I tried to do it Via Negative Combat Skill levels with range and such but was informed(by amongst others) that I should use CE
so what should I do????
TIA R.E.P.

[Thia Halmades]

First I corrected the Pears to Peers thing :)
Second I already got anough DCV when my main power is active (Reached cap) so this is not what I'm trying to make.
What I'm trying to make is a power that will make AoE powers harder to target my Hex (since my high DCV doesn't help me against them) so I tried to do it Via Negative Combat Skill levels with range and such but was informed(by amongst others) that I should use CE
so what should I do????
TIA R.E.P.

I think you just aren't understanding how Change Environment works. If you want to drop someone's OCV with the end RESULT making it "harder to target your hex" then the power I would build is:

37 Gravity Well v.1.0: Change Environment 1" radius, -6 OCV, Ranged (+1/2), Mobile (+1) (75 Active Points); Requires A Power Roll (-1/2), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2) (7 END)

You can remove Mobile to make it cheaper, but the design is intended to keep people from "moving out" of your comparatively small AOE, which is likely the first thing they're going to do. You want to the power to "stick" to them, so I mobilized it for that reason.

This version has One Continuing Charge for 5 minutes; you can increase the number of charges to improve the utility, but for a once-a-day it would look like this:

27 Gravity Well v.1.1: Change Environment 1" radius, -6 OCV, Ranged (+1/2), Mobile (+1) (75 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 5 Minutes (-3/4), Requires A Power Roll (-1/2), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2)

And 8 times a day, with each charge lasting one minute (which is more than enough time for a single fight, in most cases)

41 Gravity Well v.1.2: Change Environment 1" radius, -6 OCV, 8 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Minute each (+1/4), Ranged (+1/2), Mobile (+1) (82 Active Points); Requires A Power Roll (-1/2), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2)

[vincemcd]

What I'm trying to make is a power that will make AoE powers harder to target my Hex (since my high DCV doesn't help me against them)...
Wouldn't a Change Environment that affects the hex you're in also increase the DCV of the hex itself?

[Thia Halmades]

Wouldn't a Change Environment that affects the hex you're in also increase the DCV of the hex itself?

Change Environment is an attack power, basically; it can only reduce things or create penalties. If he CE's the "hex he's in" he'll only reduce his own DCV, i.e., he'll become easier to hit. CE cannot provide a net benefit. Now he can build a power around 5 point DCV Combat Skill Levels and apply Usable By Others, Area of Effect to it if he wants too, but I tend to frown on those constructions, personally.

But no, straight up, Change Environment can't 'improve' your DCV in any way; it can lower your opponents OCV (per the build I posted) or reduce just about anything ELSE in your opponent, but it cannot give you any sort of bonus.

[robertep]

so would that be what I'm looking for then?

__________________________________________________ _____________
Warp Field Distortion Effect: Change Environment 1" radius, -7 OCV, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Delayed Endurance (once per Turn; +1/4), Mobile (+1/2) (70 Active Points); Limited Power Only for targeting the Hex the CE is on (-1 1/2).
__________________________________________________ _____________

[robertep]

What I'm looking for is a way to make AoE attacks less likely to hit my Hex

[Thia Halmades]

What I'm looking for is a way to make AoE attacks less likely to hit my Hex


No, there's no "by the book" way to improve the DCV of the Hex you're IN. This is actually the point of AOE attacks; there are a LOT of other ways to avoid the attack (Flying Dodge, basic defenses including Force Field, things that would block the attack itself like Force Wall) but there's no "by the book" way to improve the DCV of the Hex in which you're standing.

Your best options are to have abilities that get you out of that hex, Desolid, or to bork your opponent's OCV scores (which is what I posted initially).

[jtelson]

What I'm looking for is a way to make AoE attacks less likely to hit my Hex


The more I think about it the more I think I would probably ok the DCV, UAA, AOE hex. At 12.5 AP per point of DCV it's a pretty high cost/low utility effect, overall pretty harmless.

[robertep]

No, there's no "by the book" way to improve the DCV of the Hex you're IN. This is actually the point of AOE attacks; there are a LOT of other ways to avoid the attack (Flying Dodge, basic defenses including Force Field, things that would block the attack itself like Force Wall) but there's no "by the book" way to improve the DCV of the Hex in which you're standing.

Your best options are to have abilities that get you out of that hex, Desolid, or to bork your opponent's OCV scores (which is what I posted initially).

That is what I tried to do with the Negative Combat Skill Levels but you said it was not the way to do it
my idea was that the trigger on it will activate anytime someone will target my hex and thus give him a penalty to his OCV only for using AoE powers

__________________________________________________ ______________
Negative Combat Skill Levels (-5 to opponent's DCV), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Ranged (+1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Trigger is targeting my Hex; +1) (69 Active Points); Limited Power OCV penalty is only when using AoE powers (-1), Instant (-1/2)
__________________________________________________ ______________

but it seemes that for what ever reason it is not the right way (Why ???)

so what you would say about this power

__________________________________________________ ______________
Change Environment 1" radius, -6 OCV, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Trigger is my Hex being Targeted; +1) (67 Active Points); Limited Power OCV Penalty only effect the use of AoE powers directed at my Hex (-1), Instant (-1/2).
__________________________________________________ ______________

[Thia Halmades]

Well, for the first one, anything is legal with GMO, however, in terms of the question "most valid" way to do a thing, Negative Skill Levels are not the way to go, as they are in fact limited to objects. As far as I know, you CAN do it that way, but I wouldn't call it the valid build, because Change Environment exists to do this, does that make sense? You can do it that way with GM approval, but I would never approve it, because that's what Change Environment is for.

Insofar as the Trigger, I wouldn't allow it because it's (pardon me for this one) cheesy as all get out. It's basically giving you a free abort in the event an AOE shows up, and in terms of SFX, or "knowing" you've been targeted... ugh. I just don't like it; I'm not saying you can't do it. It's trigger! You can make the Trigger whatever you want with GM approval. But I wouldn't approve of it. I would restrict it to being an Attack Action. I think you're also reaching with the "only AOE attack" limitation, because there's no way to really know (other than someone lobbing a grenade) that an attack is even going to BE AOE. It goes back to the whole common sense, dramatic sense sort of thing.

[robertep]

OK instead of me presenting builds and such let me clarify what I need

I have a character (lets call him WARP) that has the ability to bend space/time around himself and when he has this Warp Field active he has a bunch of powers (High DEX[which gives me high OCV and DCV], High SPD,a Force Field some Flash defenses and a whole MP of tricks what he is lacking and that a thing I find within the special effect of the space and time around me being warped is a defense that will make it harder to target my hex because my Warp Field will either redirect it somewhat and thus make it veer away from my hex or accelerate it and thus make it over shoot its target(it will still be able to hit my hex just harder and the hexes around me are not effected so they can be targeted normally) and thus unless its a AoE 1 hex it will still be able to effect me if the scatter will make it hit a nearby hex

[Hyper-Man]

OK instead of me presenting builds and such let me clarify what I need

I have a character (lets call him WARP) that has the ability to bend space/time around himself and when he has this Warp Field active he has a bunch of powers (High DEX[which gives me high OCV and DCV], High SPD,a Force Field some Flash defenses and a whole MP of tricks what he is lacking and that a thing I find within the special effect of the space and time around me being warped is a defense that will make it harder to target my hex because my Warp Field will either redirect it somewhat and thus make it veer away from my hex or accelerate it and thus make it over shoot its target(it will still be able to hit my hex just harder and the hexes around me are not effected so they can be targeted normally) and thus unless its a AoE 1 hex it will still be able to effect me if the scatter will make it hit a nearby hex

You seem to be mixing special effect descriptions with game mechanics.

I find that a better approach is to clearly define the special effect first and then tackle the game mechanics with several different builds and choose the best one that fits the budget and other abilities of the character.

In this case another option to consider is building the effect as a Self Only Force Wall and then buying Indirect at the +1/4 level for all of the character's offensive abilities. Definitely expensive and not an absolute effect like Missile Deflection or bonus DCV but it handles AOE attacks much more cleanly imho.

[pinecone]

Yeah, sometimes I don't nessisarily recognise the need for a comlicated build...

+6 DCV, Charges, non persistant, Incant "Oh S***!" though that won't really help vs AE....

Desolid, Charges, Trigger, non persistant.."How'd he dodge THAT?!"...seem like how'd I aproach this if I even would.

To some extent getting caught out is IMO just part of life, so I think tactics are how to deal, instead of odd powers....YMMV....

[Cannon_Fodder]

This seams a lot of work just to stop a 1 hex AoE. Could a Missle Defection/ Refection (only into adjacent hex) work to do what he wants?

[Cannon_Fodder]

Maybe we could look from a different direction. Since there is not way to really make a hex’s DCV higher follow this:

Phase one: I want to be harder to hit, the SFX I want is a swirling energy field, warp bubble or a herd of flying gerbils – doesn’t matter it’s a swirling mass of “something.” Is there a power that great for this?

Phase two: Is this power a one hex AoE or can I buy AoE for this power?

Phase three: Now that I and everything in my hex is harder to hit why isn’t the ground under me inside the hex of effect harder to hit?

If it does, I think we have a winner. Now Link the power so it is always on when your warp field is active and lower some of your other DVC bonuses to be under the GMs set limit for you character type.

[jtelson]

Maybe we could look from a different direction. Since there is not way to really make a hex’s DCV higher follow this:

Phase one: I want to be harder to hit, the SFX I want is a swirling energy field, warp bubble or a herd of flying gerbils – doesn’t matter it’s a swirling mass of “something.” Is there a power that great for this?

Phase two: Is this power a one hex AoE or can I buy AoE for this power?

Phase three: Now that I and everything in my hex is harder to hit why isn’t the ground under me inside the hex of effect harder to hit?

If it does, I think we have a winner. Now Link the power so it is always on when your warp field is active and lower some of your other DVC bonuses to be under the GMs set limit for you character type.

You mean like maybe DCV levels, UAA, AOE (1hex)?

[Paragon]

Or it's just my versionistis again. By the time the BBB hit, I'd played under all three previous editions, including the Champions II/III suplements, and the various other games, not to mention variants. Though most of the powers and rules are second nature to me, they're not always the most recent ones, and the I lose track of the more obscure stuff easily. FRED has only deepened the problem.

I know the feeling. I'm getting ready to start a Fantasy Hero campaign using 5th, and I haven't run a Hero game in literally years now, so I'm sure I'll bollix it up something fierce.

[pinecone]

OK instead of me presenting builds and such let me clarify what I need

I have a character (lets call him WARP) that has the ability to bend space/time around himself and when he has this Warp Field active he has a bunch of powers (High DEX[which gives me high OCV and DCV], High SPD,a Force Field some Flash defenses and a whole MP of tricks what he is lacking and that a thing I find within the special effect of the space and time around me being warped is a defense that will make it harder to target my hex because my Warp Field will either redirect it somewhat and thus make it veer away from my hex or accelerate it and thus make it over shoot its target(it will still be able to hit my hex just harder and the hexes around me are not effected so they can be targeted normally) and thus unless its a AoE 1 hex it will still be able to effect me if the scatter will make it hit a nearby hex

If I'm understatanding you right ...why not use Images centered on your self to "Blur" your location? That way they have to make a Per roll to guess the right hex....wouldn't that get your "effect"?

[Paragon]

If I'm understatanding you right ...why not use Images centered on your self to "Blur" your location? That way they have to make a Per roll to guess the right hex....wouldn't that get your "effect"?

Not exactly; if someone makes the Perception roll, it means the hex is no harder to hit, which may not be quite the effect. It does have a net reduction in the overall chance of hitting, though, so barring being kind of pricey (you really need to make sure it covers all senses) it might do.

[jtelson]

Well since we seem to want this to be as complex as possible how about a 3" Teleport Gate, only affects AOE attacks, end point random. People targeting your hex hit something 3"s away people targeting the randomly located end point hit your hex.

[SteveZilla]

Is this build legal
I want it to give me the ability to Abort to a "Cat Dance" ("Cat Dance" is a +4 DCV Dodge with FMove I built using the UMA rules) Maneuver in phases I already acted on
(IE:I use a full phase to do whatever and then on the same phase I get targeted by an AoE 1 Hex attack and I want to move away so I won't be affected by it)

[B]Master Dodge: Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Full Phase to reset; When being attacked by an AoE attack and can't Abort normally; +1/4) for up to 50 Active Points of "Cat Dance" (12 Active Points); Requires A PER(to perceive the threat and decide to act on it) Roll And A DEX(to actually act on the threat fast anough) Roll (-1/2), Limited Power Must use next available Phase to "recharge" the Trigger (-1/4)

TIA
R.E.P.


A Power that is set up with a Trigger always "goes off" after the event/condition that triggers the Power -- even for "No Time" triggers. Otherwise it would be child's play to make a character all but invulnerable with something like Desolidification + Trigger (No Time to Activate, No Time to Reset, Whenever Attacked).