package deal question

[adidamps2]

how do package deal's work in relation to normal maximum's? or specifically for racial package deals. i was reading through the "terran empire" setting book for star hero's...and noticed that the Korundar race has +20 str bonus but that it did not indicate an increase in points over the maximum of 20. is this because the bonus/racial package sets the "maximum" for what ever stats in the package at a new level. so that the Horundar's max str is 40, and any point added beyond this will cost x2 as much? am i understanding this right? package deals "can" increase/decrease the maximum of stats that pertain to it? (did that even make sense?):nonp: i re-read through the hero core book and the terran empire book but i didnt see any thing that indicated either way what actually takes palce with a package deal?

[Thia Halmades]

how do package deal's work in relation to normal maximum's? or specifically for racial package deals. i was reading through the "terran empire" setting book for star hero's...and noticed that the Korundar race has +20 str bonus but that it did not indicate an increase in points over the maximum of 20. is this because the bonus/racial package sets the "maximum" for what ever stats in the package at a new level. so that the Horundar's max str is 40, and any point added beyond this will cost x2 as much? am i understanding this right? package deals "can" increase/decrease the maximum of stats that pertain to it? (did that even make sense?):nonp: i re-read through the hero core book and the terran empire book but i didnt see any thing that indicated either way what actually takes palce with a package deal?

i believe in 5th Edition that package deals apply all points normally; so if you're using Normal Characteristic Maxima, they "must" take the extra points to boost their STR, and they have to pay for them as anyone else would. The Package Deals are really there to enforce homogenization among racial packages, so when you encounter X race, you know, within reason, what they can do, because the "race" is a Special Effect that always has [these powers.]

[Kdansky]

Yes, NCM does not change (anymore). It was like that in BBB (or in GURPS), and results in the D20 "If you want to have high strength, play a half-ogre"-phenomena. Now you just get some of your points assigned for you. So +20 points in strength would result in a strength of 25 (10 from 10 to 20, another 10 for 5 more due to NCM).

[adidamps2]

i believe in 5th Edition that package deals apply all points normally; so if you're using Normal Characteristic Maxima, they "must" take the extra points to boost their STR, and they have to pay for them as anyone else would. The Package Deals are really there to enforce homogenization among racial packages, so when you encounter X race, you know, within reason, what they can do, because the "race" is a Special Effect that always has [these powers.]
that would make sense with small stat boosts like a +2 or +5 but a +20 to str tells me that they dont have a max str of 20. the package deal i was using as an example there had the Korundar only paying 20 points for the +20 str. if what you said held true i'd have to pay 40 points for that +20 boost. right?

[adidamps2]

Yes, NCM does not change (anymore). It was like that in BBB (or in GURPS), and results in the D20 "If you want to have high strength, play a half-ogre"-phenomena. Now you just get some of your points assigned for you. So +20 points in strength would result in a strength of 25 (10 from 10 to 20, another 10 for 5 more due to NCM).
oh ok..this makes more sense. i was thinking more along the lines of D&D and how racial adjustments adjusted the maximums of ability stats.

[Killer Shrike]

NCM doesnt fluctuate by default. However many GM's use some means of altered NCM for various races in Fantasy, SciFi, etc.

Here's how I do it in my Fantasy games:

Race Package Notes (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/racePackageNotes.aspx)

Here is a utility web page I wrote to created altered NCM templates for HERO Designer:

Altered NCM Template Maker (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/RacePackageDeals/NCMExport/NCMExport.asp)

Here's a bunch of Fantasy Race Packages on my site:

Race Packages (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/racePackages.aspx)


And also, here is a very detailed D&D 3e to HERO System conversion:

DnD 3e to HERO System Conversion (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Conversion3e/conversion3e.aspx)

[adidamps2]

NCM doesnt fluctuate by default. However many GM's use some means of altered NCM for various races in Fantasy, SciFi, etc.

Here's how I do it in my Fantasy games:

Race Package Notes (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/racePackageNotes.aspx)

Here is a utility web page I wrote to created altered NCM templates for HERO Designer:

Altered NCM Template Maker (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/RacePackageDeals/NCMExport/NCMExport.asp)

Here's a bunch of Fantasy Race Packages on my site:

Race Packages (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/racePackages.aspx)


And also, here is a very detailed D&D 3e to HERO System conversion:

DnD 3e to HERO System Conversion (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Conversion3e/conversion3e.aspx)
all i can say is WOW...awesome write up for the package deals...thanks for the links:thumbup:

[JmOz]

You know, if you build your package deals with the POWER Characteristic instead of real characteristics it would still function as the added instead of as just dedication (I do that for my games)

[Lucius]

NCM is a mistake and should not exist in the system at all.

Lucius Alexander

Falling off a palindromedary

[adidamps2]

both of those would be good idea's as well. although i do "understand" the reasoning behind NCM's.

[pawsplay]

Maybe Steve could address this particular issue.

[JmOz]

NCM is a mistake and should not exist in the system at all.

Lucius Alexander

Falling off a palindromedary

As a seperate disad I agree, Personaly I like the idea of NCM being something each GM sets for there game depending on the feel you are going for, so the default may be 20, but the book supporting it set at 15, or 30, or whatever based on the game the GM wants, leave the default where it is now for heroic games, but TALK and provide the options for other settings...

[Killer Shrike]

all i can say is WOW...awesome write up for the package deals...thanks for the links:thumbup:

No problem. People like you are what I put the material out there for.

[Killer Shrike]

You know, if you build your package deals with the POWER Characteristic instead of real characteristics it would still function as the added instead of as just dedication (I do that for my games)

Yes, this is what I have done since 5th Edition came out and the old (mathematically flawed) mechanism of altering NCM was removed. This is in effect in the Race Packages I linked to above; stat mods plus and minus in the Race Packages affect NCM for that race.

However, to apply negative characteristic modifiers in HERO Designer you have to make a custom template anyway, so in practice I handle both pluses and minuses via the custom template maker I linked to previously. Keeps it consistent.

[Killer Shrike]

NCM is a mistake and should not exist in the system at all.

Lucius Alexander

Falling off a palindromedary
NCM has a purpose. My problem with NCM isn't that it exists as an option for use when appropriate to a setting, but rather that no official mechanism is provided to alter it in a mathematically regular way.

However, I'm not interested in getting involved in yet another NCM argument, so I'll just agree to disagree.

[adidamps2]

Yes, this is what I have done since 5th Edition came out and the old (mathematically flawed) mechanism of altering NCM was removed. This is in effect in the Race Packages I linked to above; stat mods plus and minus in the Race Packages affect NCM for that race.

However, to apply negative characteristic modifiers in HERO Designer you have to make a custom template anyway, so in practice I handle both pluses and minuses via the custom template maker I linked to previously. Keeps it consistent.
and that's what i was originally thinking when i read the packages. and is what i plan on doing regarding NCM in my setting. i just wish the text was more detailed about what the "packages" do if a NCM is used in a champaign.

[Killer Shrike]

and that's what i was originally thinking when i read the packages. and is what i plan on doing regarding NCM in my setting. i just wish the text was more detailed about what the "packages" do if a NCM is used in a champaign.

The Race Package Design notes document I linked to above and here again (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/racePackageNotes.aspx) describe the way I use them in quite a bit of depth -- nine printed pages worth of depth.

The Packages themselves are a generic resource intended to be usable in whatever setting; mathematically they cost the same whether they modify NCM or not. It's up to the GM.


And, with that, its time for bed.

[adidamps2]

The Race Package Design notes document I linked to above and here again (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/racePackageNotes.aspx) describe the way I use them in quite a bit of depth -- nine printed pages worth of depth.

The Packages themselves are a generic resource intended to be usable in whatever setting; mathematically they cost the same whether they modify NCM or not. It's up to the GM.


And, with that, its time for bed.
i hope you didnt think i meant your "text"...i reffering to the core book text.

[Thia Halmades]

NCM is a mistake and should not exist in the system at all.

Lucius Alexander

Falling off a palindromedary

And STR should be costed at 2:1, and DEX should be decoupled from OCV & DCV. But you know, c'est la vie.

[Killer Shrike]

i hope you didnt think i meant your "text"...i reffering to the core book text.

Ah; gotcha.

[sbarron]

i just wish the text was more detailed about what the "packages" do if a NCM is used in a champaign.I'm not sure if this is a request for additional info or not. If not, please ignore my post. If so, I hope this helps.

Package deals have absolutely nothing to do with NCM. The GM sets the NCM for his game, and should tell the players what the maximums are at the beginning of character creation. NCM is the same for everyone, regardless of race, class, style, whatever (unless the GM says otherwise, but let's stick to the norm).

The GM will also establish the package deals for each race and class, or might work with a player to create something. But in 5th Edition, a racial package deal is now only this: "What all members of a race XX spend on their characters."

So in the case of your Korundar...+20 STR. This means all Korundar spend 20 character points on STR. That's it. That's all it means. It's not a bonus to STR, and it's not an adjustment to NCM. It just means that in order to be a Korundar, you have to plunk at least 20 character points into STR. And if NCM is set at 20, then all Korundar will start out with at least 25 STR (so long as they don't sell any back.)

But as KS points out, you can adjust the heck out of this rule if you think it better suits your game.

[JmOz]

I'm not sure if this is a request for additional info or not. If not, please ignore my post. If so, I hope this helps.

Package deals have absolutely nothing to do with NCM. The GM sets the NCM for his game, and should tell the players what the maximums are at the beginning of character creation. NCM is the same for everyone, regardless of race, class, style, whatever (unless the GM says otherwise, but let's stick to the norm).

The GM will also establish the package deals for each race and class, or might work with a player to create something. But in 5th Edition, a racial package deal is now only this: "What all members of a race XX spend on their characters."

So in the case of your Korundar...+20 STR. This means all Korundar spend 20 character points on STR. That's it. That's all it means. It's not a bonus to STR, and it's not an adjustment to NCM. It just means that in order to be a Korundar, you have to plunk at least 20 character points into STR. And if NCM is set at 20, then all Korundar will start out with at least 25 STR (so long as they don't sell any back.)

But as KS points out, you can adjust the heck out of this rule if you think it better suits your game.

Plus useing the Rules as written, if the GM chooses he can build the bonuses to characteristics with the Characteristic power, thus using what is at times called the Defender Loophole. Of course this is just one option of many a GM can use to model what he wants to

[Paragon]

As far as I can tell in 5th (and mostly in 4th) Edition, package deals exist only to notify expectations of what characters of certain races, backgrounds and professions should have as minimum modifications at character creation. There's otherwise no real purpose they serve, and they have no intrinsic mechanical implications.

[ghost-angel]

Wow, Terran Empire has to be the only setting/sourcebook to not mention this.

The costs given in Package Deals are the Standard Costs and do not take into account a campaign using NCM. If you do use NCM the prices will need to be adjusted to account for it.

[Killer Shrike]

As far as I can tell in 5th (and mostly in 4th) Edition, package deals exist only to notify expectations of what characters of certain races, backgrounds and professions should have as minimum modifications at character creation. There's otherwise no real purpose they serve, and they have no intrinsic mechanical implications.

Yes, in 5th edition Packages are just organizational aids by default. Nothing more or less.

[FireTiger]

how do package deal's work in relation to normal maximum's? or specifically for racial package deals. i was reading through the "terran empire" setting book for star hero's...and noticed that the Korundar race has +20 str bonus but that it did not indicate an increase in points over the maximum of 20. is this because the bonus/racial package sets the "maximum" for what ever stats in the package at a new level. so that the Horundar's max str is 40, and any point added beyond this will cost x2 as much? am i understanding this right? package deals "can" increase/decrease the maximum of stats that pertain to it? (did that even make sense?):nonp: i re-read through the hero core book and the terran empire book but i didnt see any thing that indicated either way what actually takes palce with a package deal?

First, let me mention that I've seen Terran Empire yet, so if what follows turns out to be totally out-to-lunch, my apologies.

Second, within that book—if someone would be so kind as to check me on this?—is it stated that Normal Characteristic Maxima (NCM) is being enforced?

And third, it appears that Package Deals in 5th ed. are built on the presumption that NCM is an option, rather than a requirement, and the costs for characteristics have been calculated accordingly.

If it not being enforced, then the costs with the Package Deals may be used as-is.

If it is being enforced, then one could either increases the costs of the affected characteristics (like the +20 STR costing 40 points in the example), or decrease the final characteristic value based on the increased cost (like the +20 points yielding a STR of 25, as mentioned by sbarron).

That's all I've got to toss into the ring, hopefully it actually makes sense. ;)

[sbarron]

And third, it appears that Package Deals in 5th ed. are built on the presumption that NCM is an option, rather than a requirement, and the costs for characteristics have been calculated accordingly.

If it not being enforced, then the costs with the Package Deals may be used as-is.

If it is being enforced, then one could either increases the costs of the affected characteristics (like the +20 STR costing 40 points in the example), or decrease the final characteristic value based on the increased cost (like the +20 points yielding a STR of 25, as mentioned by sbarron).I think this is highlighting some of the misunderstanding. Unlike D&D, when Hero's package deals state "Korundar...+20 STR," it doesn't mean Korundar's add 20 to their 10 STR to get to 30 STR. It's saying "Korundar's all pay +20 character points for STR." Which of course, gets them to 25.

This package deal is just a way to show how the Korundar race spends character points. It's not designed to show you what a Korundar's character sheet would look like, even though you can glean that info from the package deal.

It's less of an issue for most races, since the additional points spent in characteristics match the "starting" characteristics scores. But NCM and package deals are not linked in any way.

[adidamps2]

First, let me mention that I've seen Terran Empire yet, so if what follows turns out to be totally out-to-lunch, my apologies.

Second, within that book—if someone would be so kind as to check me on this?—is it stated that Normal Characteristic Maxima (NCM) is being enforced? Terran Emprire page 192 under PLAYER CHARACTERS, 2nd paragraph " NCM restrictions automatically apply to all Terran Emprire characters for no Disadvantage points"

And third, it appears that Package Deals in 5th ed. are built on the presumption that NCM is an option, rather than a requirement, and the costs for characteristics have been calculated accordingly.

If it not being enforced, then the costs with the Package Deals may be used as-is.

If it is being enforced, then one could either increases the costs of the affected characteristics (like the +20 STR costing 40 points in the example), or decrease the final characteristic value based on the increased cost (like the +20 points yielding a STR of 25, as mentioned by sbarron).

That's all I've got to toss into the ring, hopefully it actually makes sense. ;)
ok well now i see were went i awry...i am a long time D&D player :idjit:..so when i saw racial bonuses in package deals i automatically went with my long time gaming exp. that racial bonuses/penalties adjusted NCM for said ability score. however you guys have done a great job of explaining to me how the package deals work (which was really my biggest question) and how i can work with those rules to make them fit my campaign idea's. i truelly appreciate the help here.

BTW how do you tell which 5thed version book you have? i am pretty sure i do not have the "revised" edition.

[ghost-angel]

If you have the word REVISED on the cover, you have the Revised book.

[adidamps2]

If you have the word REVISED on the cover, you have the Revised book.
hmmm well it seems i do not have that word on my cover. what am i missing out on then? is there a PDF file available or soem other resource that summ's up all of what has changed? is it even significant enough to worry about? :confused:

[Killer Shrike]

hmmm well it seems i do not have that word on my cover. what am i missing out on then? is there a PDF file available or soem other resource that summ's up all of what has changed? is it even significant enough to worry about? :confused:

Revised is about half again larger. It has all the errata between the 1st version and its release, and most of the FAQ up to that time too, as well as more examples, the Genre by Genre web supplement, and various other little goodies. It also has some modified mechanics...the most significant that comes to mind is that the Trigger Advantage is greatly expanded.

You don't need it per se, but its definitely a real value IMO, not just a reprint with a few fixed typos.

[adidamps2]

Revised is about half again larger. It has all the errata between the 1st version and its release, and most of the FAQ up to that time too, as well as more examples, the Genre by Genre web supplement, and various other little goodies. It also has some modified mechanics...the most significant that comes to mind is that the Trigger Advantage is greatly expanded.

You don't need it per se, but its definitely a real value IMO, not just a reprint with a few fixed typos.
that means the most to me...as i despise spending money on new books that just rehash things but really dont change things.

[FireTiger]

Second, within that book—if someone would be so kind as to check me on this?—is it stated that Normal Characteristic Maxima (NCM) is being enforced? Terran Emprire page 192 under PLAYER CHARACTERS, 2nd paragraph " NCM restrictions automatically apply to all Terran Emprire characters for no Disadvantage points"


Thank'ee. :) So, as others have probably mentioned above this post, you'd get an end result for the example race having STR 25 at a cost of 20 points.

(I have a limited amount of 5th ed. material in print myself so far: 5th Edition, 5th Edition Revised, Sidekick Revised, UNTIL Superpowers Database Revised, Character Creation Handbook, and the Champions Universe for 5th edition.)

[adidamps2]

Thank'ee. :) So, as others have probably mentioned above this post, you'd get an end result for the example race having STR 25 at a cost of 20 points.

(I have a limited amount of 5th ed. material in print myself so far: 5th Edition, 5th Edition Revised, Sidekick Revised, UNTIL Superpowers Database Revised, Character Creation Handbook, and the Champions Universe for 5th edition.)
tha'st essentially ther core book with out all the fluff right? would that be a good book to buy in lieu of a "revised" 5th ed book? to have it go along with my 5th ed book.

[ghost-angel]

The Online FAQ and the Genre By Genre Document from the Free Stuff section covers the difference between the two books.

[ghost-angel]

Thank'ee. :) So, as others have probably mentioned above this post, you'd get an end result for the example race having STR 25 at a cost of 20 points.

(I have a limited amount of 5th ed. material in print myself so far: 5th Edition, 5th Edition Revised, Sidekick Revised, UNTIL Superpowers Database Revised, Character Creation Handbook, and the Champions Universe for 5th edition.)

Actually, I take it to mean the Player needs to spend an extra 10pts to get the full Package Deal assuming they want baseline Characteristics for that Race.

[Lucius]

I've said it before and I'll say it again; if NCM is a good idea, why isn't it used anywhere else in the system?

The books says the person running the game should set certain limits; Active Point limits, Damage Class limits, Defenses limits, OCV and DCV limits. And then either say "That's it, no exceptions," or "If you go beyond those limits, I will look it over very carefully and allow exceptions on a case by case basis IF I don't think they're unbalancing."

Nothing about "if you want to exceed the campaign damage cap, just spend double points!"


Mind you, I'm all in favor of a Game Operations Director saying "No, you can't play a 'normal Human' in my game with a STR over 20!" (or 15, or 25, or wherever the limit is set.) I'll stand up and cheer. Hooray, for setting limits that define the game you want!

The implication being they go on to say either "If your STR (CON, BOD, whatever) is over that, one way or the other you're NOT 'normal Human.'" or "NOBODY (no player character anyway) gets to be that Strong (Agile, Tough, what have you.)"


What I'm opposed to is
1. This "one size fits all" idea that the same maximum applies across genres, games, species, etc. etc. and even more importantly,
2. The idea that a limit can be set, and then be broken just by spending twice as many points. It's THAT idea in particular that leads to all kinds of unfairness, absurdity, and needless complication.



Oh, and Captain:
I think the solution to the STR conundrum is not to INCREASE STR cost, but DECREASE cost of figured characteristics.
And I have no clue what you're talking about on DEX or why you'd say that. But let's take both these issues elsewhere if you want to talk about them. :)

Lucius Alexander

The Palindromedary exceeds a lot of Normal Maximums.

[Paragon]

I've said it before and I'll say it again; if NCM is a good idea, why isn't it used anywhere else in the system?



I think it lands in the "better than nothing" area; an absolute limit might not always serve most campaigns here, so there's a comprimise. Personally, I use a bit of both; in heroic scale games I have the the doubling point, and then an absolute cap about one and a half times that (so in a typical heroic scale game I run you can't have a human with more than a 30 Dex or a 6 Speed tops, for example).

Now this does run into the issue that you need to set different racial maximums, which can create some balance questions, but that's wrapped in a problem Hero's always had in that area.

[Lucius]

I think it lands in the "better than nothing" area; .

Which would make sense, if the alternative was "nothing."


an absolute limit might not always serve most campaigns here,

So it doesn't have to be absolute. Like all other campaign limits, it can be a "soft cap" rather than a "hard cap."


Now this does run into the issue that you need to set different racial maximums, which can create some balance questions, but that's wrapped in a problem Hero's always had in that area.

Only because it's always had the NCM. Eliminate that, and what balance problem do you have?

Lucius Alexander

And a well balanced palindromedary

[Kdansky]

I've said it before and I'll say it again; if NCM is a good idea, why isn't it used anywhere else in the system?

The books says the person running the game should set certain limits; Active Point limits, Damage Class limits, Defenses limits, OCV and DCV limits. And then either say "That's it, no exceptions," or "If you go beyond those limits, I will look it over very carefully and allow exceptions on a case by case basis IF I don't think they're unbalancing."

Nothing about "if you want to exceed the campaign damage cap, just spend double points!"


Mind you, I'm all in favor of a Game Operations Director saying "No, you can't play a 'normal Human' in my game with a STR over 20!" (or 15, or 25, or wherever the limit is set.) I'll stand up and cheer. Hooray, for setting limits that define the game you want!

The implication being they go on to say either "If your STR (CON, BOD, whatever) is over that, one way or the other you're NOT 'normal Human.'" or "NOBODY (no player character anyway) gets to be that Strong (Agile, Tough, what have you.)"


What I'm opposed to is
1. This "one size fits all" idea that the same maximum applies across genres, games, species, etc. etc. and even more importantly,
2. The idea that a limit can be set, and then be broken just by spending twice as many points. It's THAT idea in particular that leads to all kinds of unfairness, absurdity, and needless complication.



Oh, and Captain:
I think the solution to the STR conundrum is not to INCREASE STR cost, but DECREASE cost of figured characteristics.
And I have no clue what you're talking about on DEX or why you'd say that. But let's take both these issues elsewhere if you want to talk about them. :)

Lucius Alexander

The Palindromedary exceeds a lot of Normal Maximums.

If there were cake, you would have won it! Repped!

By the way: it would be nice to see repped posts directly (the post lists all rep messages + who was it) so we don't write these "I repped you" posts, which are kind of pointless.

[ghost-angel]

You can see who repped your post by clicking on the scales on any one of your own posts.

[Paragon]

Which would make sense, if the alternative was "nothing."



It probably seemed so on design.




So it doesn't have to be absolute. Like all other campaign limits, it can be a "soft cap" rather than a "hard cap."


This assumes you consider soft caps, which are fundamentally arbitrary, a good thing. Sometimes they're necessary in some areas, but as far as I'm concerned, the less I have to debate with players about why player X gets to do something they don't, the better; attributes are universal enough its the last place I want to see it.





Only because it's always had the NCM. Eliminate that, and what balance problem do you have?



You don't. But you have a different kind of problem I don't see as any better, as I note above.

[Lucius]

This assumes you consider soft caps, which are fundamentally arbitrary, a good thing. Sometimes they're necessary in some areas, but as far as I'm concerned, the less I have to debate with players about why player X gets to do something they don't, the better; attributes are universal enough its the last place I want to see it.


I'm sorry you have such problematic players. In my experience, most people understand why it's possible for an Ogre to have STR 25 but not a Pixie.

So, do you also allow people to break other campaign limits by doubling the points?

Lucius Alexander

Let the palindromedary eat cake

[Paragon]

I'm sorry you have such problematic players. In my experience, most people understand why it's possible for an Ogre to have STR 25 but not a Pixie.



But they don't necessarily understand why one human can, but you don't want all of them doing so, or even most.




So, do you also allow people to break other campaign limits by doubling the points?



Since attributes are the only areas where there's an absolute limit in the first place, its moot. Most other areas, I don't claim that a limit is based on species traits, either; its simply naked campaign support. As such, I don't consider the two cases parallel except in the vaguest possible way.

[Lucius]

But they don't necessarily understand why one human can, but you don't want all of them doing so, or even most.


If that's what the problem is, I fail to see how NCM helps. If they're all determined to have STR 23, they'll all spend the extra points for it, I would think. You're telling me that in your experience, without NCM the players would all choose, say, 23 to 25 STR, but with NCM most of them don't but one or two do? Do the rest cluster around STR 20 then?


Lucius Alexander

Trying to keep the palindromedary from eating the chocolate orc.

[Paragon]

If that's what the problem is, I fail to see how NCM helps. If they're all determined to have STR 23, they'll all spend the extra points for it, I would think. You're telling me that in your experience, without NCM the players would all choose, say, 23 to 25 STR, but with NCM most of them don't but one or two do? Do the rest cluster around STR 20 then?



"All" and "most" weren't in my statement, but on a more limited case you're response is exactly correct. People will tend to not go above human unless they feel like they have an overriding reason to do so with NCM. Strength might be a bad example as its often too attractive in heroic scale games, but I've certainly seen the effect with Dexterity. So yes, in my experience it does what its supposed to; makes trans-normal-human-range attributes rarer in the PC population than it otherwise would be.