Company Proposal/Thoughts (for Steve, Darren, and Everyone Else)

[Immortaldreamer]

Okay. Disclaimers up front. Long time Hero veteran, been playing for over 18 years now. Own virtually every Hero 5th ed product, with the sole exception being the Champs anniversary book (cause my budget couldn't handle that hit at the time). Own many of the PDFs, all the versions of Hero Designer, many of the HD Packs. Wanted to get that up front so people understand where the statements are coming from.

First off is a sort of an idea to feel the waters...see what the reaction would be. Maybe if it's favorable enough, Steve and Co. can be talked into setting something up in this vein. The idea is this: I know I can't be the only Herophile out there who makes a point of buying all the new Hero releases. Yet I don't have a Brick-and-Mortar within an hour's drive of me that stocks Hero. Plus, Hero Games asked us to support them directly. Okay, I like my Hero and I don't want them to go out of business; got no problems doing that.

The problems? The situation as it exists now actively -discourages- me from buying Hero books. First off, I'm a very straightforward person (as I imagine a lot of Hero players are...the mathy, near-computer-language nature of it encourages those kind of people). And there are several problems with ordering from Hero:

1) Finding out when a product is available. I'm sorry. Checking the online store every day is nonsensical and slow. -Sometimes- new products get announced on the Forum...and Steve usually mentions them in the Friday updates. But even then, on several occasions, there have been a couple-week delay in when Steve says "it should be in soon" and when Tina has them for shipping. I can't think of another company in the business...not Wizards, not White Wolf, not Steve Jackson...that doesn't have release date announcements. Put simply, I want a one-stop place (its own forum? The web frontpage? WHEREEVER.) to go and see "Product X is now in the shop and can be ordered." And to KNOW that means yes, it's in Tina's hands. Not "it's on a truck", not "it's shipped from the printers", but "if you order it, I can ship it."

2) Actual shipping. See, while Hero gives us free shipping, for me it takes 5-7 days from the time Tina ships it, to when it's in my hands. Business days. That, in the modern world, is a freaking eternity. And when I could order from any number of OTHER sites, and know that A) they're going to ship it via a faster carrier, or B) be confident that if I order today, they're shipping today...this discourages my business. I've had several books that I ordered, that were supposedly in stock, that took DAYS just to be shipped. Not days to get to me. Days from when I placed my order to when someone could be bothered to actually ship my order. Not to mention, getting a shipping notification and/or a tracking number...things that are virtually automatic in online shopping today, is like pulling teeth. If Hero wants our support, that's great...but come on guys, meet us half way. Don't sit on my order half-a-week or longer. I ordered the book because (big shock), I want the book. Not to wait an average of 2 weeks to get the book.

3) PDFs. I love me some PDFs, I tell ya. They'll never replace hard-copy in my world...I like having the book in my hands, and I like being able to read it as a book. But being able to put them on a laptop and carry 20 books in one laptop, plus search them instantly? I likes that. And yet, here we see another dichotomy. Every other company has a radical price difference between PDF and printed material. Hero's PDFs are nearly as pricey as the original book. And while I'm happy to buy all your books, guys, I'm not so happy about buying them twice. If you really want to encourage people to order from you direct, here's an EASY way to do it. Give people who order the hard-copy a large discount coupon code for the purchase of the linked PDF. I can understand not wanting to take a beating on the PDF (the whole "well, then people won't buy the printed books!" argument), but if I've already -got- the books? And at full cover price? I'm your supporter, treat me like one. Don't bleed me dry.

So...suggested solution? Here's an idea, and it might be crazy, but what the hey. Offer a new item on the Online Store. "Yearly Subscription". What this gem does is basically set up a contract. I, the buyer, agree that for the next 365 days, any book Hero Games prints, I order. It comes out, you charge my card, you ship. Perks for Hero? Guaranteed sales. In fact, guaranteed pre-sales. One per subscription. That's money in the bank for them, and can help them plan things. Plus it's at full cover price, direct from them; they make more than if I buy it through a retailer.

So what's in it for us? Easy. Hero just adds a few perks which (generally) cost them little to nothing:

A) Subscribers go out in the first batch of shipments. I.E., the day it hits Tina's door, she turns around and gets them out to Subscribers. This is easy; since she has a list of subscribers, she KNOWS exactly how many need to go out, and to where, on day 1. This solves the issue of knowing when new product is out, and helps with the shipping time issue.

B) Subscribers get discount codes usable on purchase of linked products. I.E., if the Atlantean Age comes out, I get two coupon codes on my account; one usable for 50% off the price of the Atlantean Age PDF, the other usable for 50% off the price of the Hero Designer pack. This is, again, money in the bank. Hero already has my guaranteed sale on the hardcopy, and now has given me a huge inducement to spend MORE money on buying the PDF and the HD pack, while at the same time rewarding me for being a loyal customer. Everyone wins.

C) Subscribers books go out using UPS-3 day Ground. Since Hero already pays for basic shipping, the increase on a given book would be minimal, and probably more than offset by the guaranteed-direct-sale factor.

Net result? Hero gets more direct sales, and makes more profit per book than selling through a retailer. They also spark higher sales of PDFs and HD packs. The consumer gets their product faster, more efficiently, and can get support products for the main product at a discount. Once again, everybody wins.

So, assuming you've read through this all...how many Herophiles out there think this is a good idea? Am I just nuts, or is this actually a business model that helps us support our favorite company AND get our products faster/better? How many of you would sign up? (I figure numbers are always the best enticement for Steve and Darren to seriously consider this).

[BobGreenwade]

Problem 1 on the list sort of underscores one thing I miss about the old site design: there was a place under "Our Products" where we could go to each year's release schedule. If a book was available now, there was a line there that said "AVAILABLE NOW!" And there was usually a line saying that it was out of print, or currently unavailable, or in some other status if that was the case. It's an imperfect solution to what Immortaldreamer says, but having those pages back would be simply wonderful.

[Hugh Neilson]

Problem 1 on the list sort of underscores one thing I miss about the old site design: there was a place under "Our Products" where we could go to each year's release schedule. If a book was available now, there was a line there that said "AVAILABLE NOW!" And there was usually a line saying that it was out of print, or currently unavailable, or in some other status if that was the case. It's an imperfect solution to what Immortaldreamer says, but having those pages back would be simply wonderful.

I agree - it's quite difficult to find a scheduled release on site now. It's a sticky in "company questions", but how many browsers are going to look that hard for a "coming attractions" page? I don't believe any other site lacks an "Upcoming Releases" and "New Releases" page clearly accessible from the home page.

[TygerLily]

I have had issues with the online store being confusing. It seems like the search options don't work the way I expect them to. Plus there's several listing for the same book...be it damaged, PDF format and hard copy. I know in Dec, hubby and I purchases several books we had been wanting and it took twice as long as it felt like it should because we knew the books we wanted but couldn't get them to come up in the search. We needed up doing "All" and scrolling through pages after pages of items to find what we wanted.

On the other hand, the only ones who could go on a list of "send me a book as soon as it's released" are people who have disposable funds available all the time. So, we wouldn't be on that list. Having things auto shipped can leave someone with a debit/credit card charge of $20-30 during a time when money is tight.

Maybe a better solution would be a mailing list that people can opt on/off and have a mass email blast when Tina has a new book ready for orders.

Another thought, does the ordering system have the capabilities to allow for pre-orders? Could it allow someone to pre-order books and then when they come in, Tina can process and ship the order? (just tossing out ideas).

[BobGreenwade]

Maybe a better solution would be a mailing list that people can opt on/off and have a mass email blast when Tina has a new book ready for orders.This, in combination of bringing back the "Our Products" section, would to my mind be ideal.

[Flames]

I'd like to suggest that the news on the front page be included in an RSS feed, so that those of us who use feedcatchers can see the news right away. I already use my feedcatcher to see the latest posts in this very discussion area.

[ghost-angel]

A more reliable It's Out Now announcement would be cool, most of the time you guys are good about. Sometimes not - I'm betting I'm one of the few that noticed the Bestiary was released on PDF in early January. . .

I've never had trouble searching the new store. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

Orders take 3-4 business days to reach me, faster than any other site I order from that has free shipping, and faster than many sites that charge me for shipping. It could simply be that from Tina's place to my place is a 3 day ship time, and if I remember to place an order on a weekday I usually see it ship that afternoon.

I'm sorry 5-7 business days... I order pretty much everything from the internet and that's not a bad shipping time.

[BobGreenwade]

I'm sorry 5-7 business days... I order pretty much everything from the internet and that's not a bad shipping time.Same here, but I'm also aware that some people like to pay extra for faster shipping.

[name_tamer]

I can't imagine there would be a lot of takers for an "every book" subscription. Does anyone really buy EVERYTHING?

However, I will add my voice to those who think that (a) the new online store format makes it harder to keep track of when a new product has been released and (b) consistent posting in some board that a new product/PDF has been released would be helpful.

G-A, thanks for the update on the Bestiary. I've been waiting for that PDF forever.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I can't imagine there would be a lot of takers for an "every book" subscription. Does anyone really buy EVERYTHING?

*cough*



:D

[ghost-angel]

I can't imagine there would be a lot of takers for an "every book" subscription. Does anyone really buy EVERYTHING?

er.... yes.

[name_tamer]

er.... yes.


*cough*



:D

Okay, okay, point made. :) But I think the number of people who would be willing to commit to that would be quite low, whereas many of the other "fixes" discussed on this board would make the store more usable for everyone.

[Jhaierr]

I've never had trouble searching the new store. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

The online store is... well, I'm trying very hard not to say something very negative because Hero Games is my Favorite Game Company Ever. :o

Here are my problems with it:
There are either some query problems or the year of release attached to each product is often incorrect. It's been this way ever since the new store was created. Only recently were several of the invalid years removed, but there is still more left.
I have no easy way of seeing "What's New." It can't be sorted in order of release date except by year. New products should appear as the first thing you see.
Users should not see the damaged products at the top of the list -- or at all! They should be hidden unless you check something like "Include damaged books", but the store seems to show them first in the list and right along with undamaged products! I think it's bad for Hero's image.
The checkboxes are counter-intuitive. What does it mean if I uncheck both "Hardcopy" and "Electronic"? Does unchecking "available for purchase" show me upcoming books or just things that are out of stock? As a new user, I wouldn't really know the answer to these questions without frustrating experimentation. Remove hardcopy/electronic completely and have the available options next to each product after its description: "Available as Hardcover book - Softcover book - CD (PDF) - download (PDF)" according to what's available. Out of stock items should still appear in your searches -- just list them like so: "Fantasy Hero (currently out of stock)".

No text searching capability.

The categories are just one long list that should be divided into groups. For example: Core Books, Genres, Additional Products, etc.
The cramped, scrolling area is a waste of screen real estate. It limits your options as to what you can use as navigation within it, for instance. It's just Not Good for many reasons.Not trying to be a Negative Nancy about all this. I really want Hero to do well. :) I feel that the online store interface makes ordering more difficult and frustrating.

[Jhaierr]

This, in combination of bringing back the "Our Products" section, would to my mind be ideal.

Yes. We need to be able to browse and read about Hero's products without necessarily being within the online store. It should be easy to include a link at the end of each description like "Buy Now!" that will take you right to the online store and add that to your shopping cart. The product listing could be organized more by product line or however else you want to do it... and use the same data in the online store database to populate the descriptions and images.

[ghost-angel]

No text searching capability.

This is my favorite.

Cntrl-F/Cmd-F (Win/Mac).



Yeah, I must be doing something wrong since I can find what I'm looking for every time in a minute or less. Have been able to since it was implemented.

[rjcurrie]

The online store is... well, I'm trying very hard not to say something very negative because Hero Games is my Favorite Game Company Ever. :o


Here are my problems with it:
There are either some query problems or the year of release attached to each product is often incorrect. It's been this way ever since the new store was created. Only recently were several of the invalid years removed, but there is still more left.
I have no easy way of seeing "What's New." It can't be sorted in order of release date except by year. New products should appear as the first thing you see.
Users should not see the damaged products at the top of the list -- or at all! They should be hidden unless you check something like "Include damaged books", but the store seems to show them first in the list and right along with undamaged products! I think it's bad for Hero's image.
The checkboxes are counter-intuitive. What does it mean if I uncheck both "Hardcopy" and "Electronic"? Does unchecking "available for purchase" show me upcoming books or just things that are out of stock? As a new user, I wouldn't really know the answer to these questions without frustrating experimentation. Remove hardcopy/electronic completely and have the available options next to each product after its description: "Available as Hardcover book - Softcover book - CD (PDF) - download (PDF)" according to what's available. Out of stock items should still appear in your searches -- just list them like so: "Fantasy Hero (currently out of stock)".

No text searching capability.

The categories are just one long list that should be divided into groups. For example: Core Books, Genres, Additional Products, etc.
The cramped, scrolling area is a waste of screen real estate. It limits your options as to what you can use as navigation within it, for instance. It's just Not Good for many reasons.Not trying to be a Negative Nancy about all this. I really want Hero to do well. :) I feel that the online store interface makes ordering more difficult and frustrating.

I'm pretty much in complete agreement with this list of problems. You saved me making a similar post myself.

[Steve Long]

Believe me folx, we're well aware of the problems and are in fact working on them right now. Nothing's ever perfect, but we're hoping to at least make this particular thing better. ;)

[Jhaierr]

This is my favorite.

Cntrl-F/Cmd-F (Win/Mac).

Yes, this is what I use when I have to find a product. However, that only works if you have the text already on the screen that you want to find.

I'm not saying that I personally can't find what I want to find; I'm saying it's counter-intuitive.

[Immortaldreamer]

This is my favorite.

Cntrl-F/Cmd-F (Win/Mac).



Yeah, I must be doing something wrong since I can find what I'm looking for every time in a minute or less. Have been able to since it was implemented.

Thanks for the smarm, Ghost. Kudos to you. You go with your leet self. Way to be constructive. :thumbdown

I mean, honestly. When this many people are all saying the same thing? Could we use the built-in browser functionality? Yes. AFTER clicking Online Store, and AFTER clicking to change it to search all products. In other words, two layers down.

Or was the concept of having a simple announcement of new product on THE MAIN PAGE, thus -helping us give Hero money-, too complicated for your leetness?

[Diamond Spear]

Believe me folx, we're well aware of the problems and are in fact working on them right now. Nothing's ever perfect, but we're hoping to at least make this particular thing better. ;)

Thanks Steve. One of the things I love most about HERO is how responsive you guys are. Keep up the great work!

[BobGreenwade]

Believe me folx, we're well aware of the problems and are in fact working on them right now. Nothing's ever perfect, but we're hoping to at least make this particular thing better. ;)


Thanks Steve. One of the things I love most about HERO is how responsive you guys are. Keep up the great work!

What he said. :)

[Jhaierr]

Thanks Steve. One of the things I love most about HERO is how responsive you guys are. Keep up the great work!


What he said. :)

A big ditto here! Thanks for listening to us. :)

[Steve Long]

We always try to listen. We don't always agree, and we can't always do anything about whatever it is, but we at least owe you the courtesy of listening. ;)

[Diamond Spear]

We always try to listen. We don't always agree, and we can't always do anything about whatever it is, but we at least owe you the courtesy of listening. ;)

Steve, you might be suprised at the number of game companies who don't understand that simple concept.

[ghost-angel]

Or was the concept of having a simple announcement of new product on THE MAIN PAGE, thus -helping us give Hero money-, too complicated for your leetness?

I said this would be a good idea.

I just didn't agree with all the complaints. SO BACK OFF.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Steve, you might be suprised at the number of game companies who don't understand that simple concept.Actually, I suspect he wouldn't be even a little surprised. ;)

[archermoo]

Actually, I suspect he wouldn't be even a little surprised. ;)

Being that he has done freelance work for a number of them, I suspect you're right. :)

[GamePhil]

*cough*



:D

Ahem. Ditto.

:)

Revamps in our future, it seems.

[John Desmarais]

I can't imagine there would be a lot of takers for an "every book" subscription. Does anyone really buy EVERYTHING?


:whistle:


Well, now that you ask.

Ummm....

Yeah.

Pretty much...

Maybe not immediately, but eventually I get it all.



Hey! I'm old and I have very few vices left!
Whadda ya expect?

[Maur]

Last I checked it would be around $2k to get all the 5th Ed HERO stuff that has been released (not counting getting it in digital and print format). So, I don't see myself getting all of it anytime soon, if ever.

[Lord Mhoram]

Last I checked it would be around $2k to get all the 5th Ed HERO stuff that has been released (not counting getting it in digital and print format). So, I don't see myself getting all of it anytime soon, if ever.

And it has been about 6 years. So I've dumped approximately $350 a year into hero. About a dollar a day. I can live with that. :)

[Maur]

Yep, but not as doable for someone entering the system 6 years late

[ghost-angel]

Yep, but not as doable for someone entering the system 6 years late

Maybe not, but they can't stop selling books for 6 years to accommodate that.

[Lord Mhoram]

Yep, but not as doable for someone entering the system 6 years late

Well if eating and driving are more important for you than Hero. :D

[Dynamo]

Steve, you might be suprised at the number of game companies who don't understand that simple concept.I'm looking at you, Rein-Hagen. :idjit:

[SuperPheemy]

about $2,000 for the entire HERO Line eh?... By the time next year rolls around, that might be somewhere in the neighborhood of $2,500... If I start saving now...
*slaps self* Bad Keith! Bad Keith! Stop that!

[ghost-angel]

You want an exact dollar amount? :eg:

[Steve Long]

At most cons we do have a "buy one of everything we currently have in stock and here at the show deal" that gets you the entire line (or most of it) at a considerable discount. We'll even offer to cart it to your hotel room for you. I think last GenCon that bundle was around $1,300, but I don't recall for sure; the price goes up each show, obviously.

[eternal_sage]

store is totally screwed up, but thats been on everybodies lips for some time. yes, g-a is right about the ctrl-f thing. however, (being that i did freelance web design for a very short period) relying on people to know that exists is a big no-no. every page needs a back button (built in), a link back to the homepage, and if its some big info dump, a way to search it and organize it, often in several different ways. its just good design. so, in fact, both g-a and everyone else are correct. it works fine the way it is and is totally unusable unless you know something about the internet, which well over 50% of people do not, and thats being conservative.

i would not be in for a "get everything as it comes out" idea, but having the OPTION of shipping UPS/FEDEX whatever, would be nice, for those gotta have it tomorrow instances (few though they may be).

and i for one would buy a PDF copy of every book i own and the HD pack right along with it if they were 50-66% cheaper. i think the idea of the coupon with the purchase is brilliant, because then it makes even the people who don't normally even consider such things think about it. its the very essence of marketing. as it is, i only purchase such things if i need them REALLY badly (in the case of the Bestiary pack) AND i don't have the time to do them all in from the book by hand (again, Bestiary). as it stands i have scanned a few pages i need alot, and built alot of stuff by hand, because $30 for electrons i already own upsets me in ways thats it best not to get into on family friendly board. i want to support HERO in this way (and its 100% profit on their part, as no warehouse space is taken up and the webspace is already in existance to store it) but i can't because it seems that they don't want me to have it. i think the electronic item prices are punitive, personally, and far outside what could be considered reasonable.

i also understand that DOJ is not a WotC or White Wolf, or even a Steve Jackson, however, i feel that $27-$34 for a soft cover is a bit expensive (as i can get a hardcover, with better art and the same number of pages, from White Wolf for $27.99-$34.99). i understand that White-Wolf has 20-ish% of the market share, and HERO has maybe 5% at best, but it just feel way over priced, especially cause i'll likely end up replacing it because its a flimsy soft-cover. course, thats neither here nor there (and really wouldn't affect my buying habits much, since i just got the last book that HERO already has out for Christmas and i only want a couple of the announced books, but we're being honest, so i'm saying it).

i have to say though, that HERO is still by far the best company on the market, and i still support you guys as much as possible. i understand that the economy is wonky right now, especially for this type of niche market (and rpgs in particular), and you guys are basically a mom-and-pop-shop as far as the business is concerned, and so you already have my vote, before Steve gets on here and talks to us on Wed, and Darren once a month. after that, i feel less like you guys are a company and more like close friends (who are always borrowing money, and not paying it back :)).

[Chris Goodwin]

At most cons we do have a "buy one of everything we currently have in stock and here at the show deal" that gets you the entire line (or most of it) at a considerable discount. We'll even offer to cart it to your hotel room for you. I think last GenCon that bundle was around $1,300, but I don't recall for sure; the price goes up each show, obviously.

How big does that end up being?

[Darren Watts]

Last time we sold one (which was a couple of years ago) it was three decent-sized boxes, enough to need a handtruck. It'd be up to about 70 books by now, plus whatever other acoutrements we had on sale for that show (dice, etc.) dw

[Enforcer84]

We always try to listen. We don't always agree, and we can't always do anything about whatever it is, but we at least owe you the courtesy of listening. ;)
Can you hear me now?




OW!
Guess he could.

[TheQuestionMan]

*cough*



:D

<cough cough cough>

yes

QM