Combat Issues

[ajackson]

Since the character point cost should probably be (more or less) proportional to SPD, you should probably buy SPD and then look shot cost up on a table.
Actually, you should probably buy shot cost directly and not bother with Spd at all. If we assume the base shot cost is 12 (spd 2), cost is 240/(shot) - 20. Listing for common values:


Shot 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
Cost 220 100 60 40 28 20 14 10 7 4 2 0

[Klaus Mogensen]

Actually, you should probably buy shot cost directly and not bother with Spd at all. If we assume the base shot cost is 12 (spd 2), cost is 240/(shot) - 20. Listing for common values:


Shot 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
Cost 220 100 60 40 28 20 14 10 7 4 2 0

Well, the end result is the same in any case. Needs a table look-up either way. However, I happen to like the idea of making Speed a primary characteristic - it makes the cost more in line with other characteristics (1-3 per +1) and avoids having to buy fractional characteristics like now.

At any rate, I would not allow ap/shot costs lower than 2, corresponding to SPD 12, especially since the next step would be a doubling of that.

I guess half-point ap costs for high Speeds could be an optional rule for those that want higher granularity at the high end. This would add the following two options:

ap cost 3½ ~ SPD 6.9
ap cost 2½ ~ SPD 9.6

Corresponding closely to SPD 7 and 10, making only SPD 9 and 11 missing from the current structure.

- Klaus

[Klaus Mogensen]

The action point system discussed above can actually be simplified by throwing away the action points and merely talk about segments:

Segmented Action System

A Turn consists of 24 segments of ½ second each.
Actions take a certain number of segments to perform.
Actions will take place on the segment they are initiated, and other actions can't normally be initiated until the duration runs out.
Some durations are fixed, others depend on the (new) Speed primary characteristic, which cost 2 points per +1 and also covers initiative.
A full move always takes 6 segments, while a half move takes 3 segments.
Attack actions take 120/Speed segments (this is the "Attack Cost" or AC).
Dodging or Blocking any or all incoming attacks in a segment takes the entire segment.
You can Dodge/Block 'out of turn' while performing other actions (though not on the segment they are initiated); this delays when you can initiate a new action.
Shifting skill levels or Framework slots takes 1 segment.
Damage from continuing effects take effect every 6 segments.



Speed: 10 11 12 14 15 18 20 24 30 40 60
AC: 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2
~ SPD: 2 2.2 2.4 2.7 3 3.4 4 4.8 6 8 12

The main advantages of this system are that actions flow more fluidly than with the current system and that movement and continuing damage is disassociated from Speed. You also get more finely grained 'SPD' at normal human level. The main disadvantage is coarser granularity at the high-powered superheroic end - there's nothing that corresponds to SPD 7, 9, 10, or 11.

Another disadvantage may be that 24-segment turns may be a little too fine-tuned. OTOH, a similar system in Feng Shui flows quite well with up to 18 segments per turn.

- Klaus

[ajackson]

A Turn consists of 24 segments of ½ second each.
It's not clear that we need turns at all -- you'd only really need them to track post-12 recoveries.


A full move always takes 6 segments, while a half move takes 3 segments.
It's probably necessary to have 'move and attack' as a single action; otherwise you wind up with the phenomenon of 'I move next to him', 'I move away', etc, making it never possible to actually move up to someone and punch them. Also, no real harm to boosting resolution here. I might say:

Movement
You may spend up to 3 segments moving as part of another action, or 6 segments moving as a full action. A normal person moves 1" per segment, various movement powers will increase this rate.


Shifting skill levels or Framework slots takes 1 segment.
Why? Perhaps 1 segment to abort.

Damage from continuing effects take effect every 6 segments.
Actually, frequency of damage should be an advantage on continuing attacks. Actually, there's something to be said for eliminating the entire concept of 'attack cost' and treating it as always an advantage on an attack power.

[Klaus Mogensen]

It's probably necessary to have 'move and attack' as a single action; otherwise you wind up with the phenomenon of 'I move next to him', 'I move away', etc, making it never possible to actually move up to someone and punch them. Also, no real harm to boosting resolution here. I might say:

Movement
You may spend up to 3 segments moving as part of another action, or 6 segments moving as a full action. A normal person moves 1" per segment, various movement powers will increase this rate.
Good point. Or perhaps movement, like Dodge/Block, simply delay when you can act next.


Shifting skill levels or Framework slots takes 1 segment.

Why? Perhaps 1 segment to abort.
This is to prevent characters switching levels/slots to defense right after making an attack, then back to offense right before their next attack. Of course, this can also be avoided if we only allow shifting levels/slots at the beginning of an attack action, but that seems artificial. Requiring ½ second to shift seems realistic, and it offers new options: Should I take the time to shift levels/slots, or act more quickly without shifting?


Actually, frequency of damage should be an advantage on continuing attacks. Actually, there's something to be said for eliminating the entire concept of 'attack cost' and treating it as always an advantage on an attack power.
So that different attacks take different time? That could quickly become complicated, and it also favors "Johnny One Spell"s. It might also favor Bricks, since they would only need to take this advantage on STR.

What might work is to allow trading CSLs for faster Speed on an attack. I.e., a skill level can be used to add 1 to Speed for determining AC for the attack.

BTW, one reason I've made several things take 6 segments (full move, ongoing damage) is that this allow a simpler option where a Turn is four Rounds of 3 seconds each. In this option, everybody acts once per Round, though mooks may be limited to only two attacks per Turn.

- Klaus

[ajackson]

This is to prevent characters switching levels/slots to defense right after making an attack, then back to offense right before their next attack.
Ah. A reasonable concern. I would certainly say that you cannot switch before your shot comes up, so if you burn 3 shots for an attack you can't switch until your next action comes up, but that does imply an ability to switch slots before moving.


What might work is to allow trading CSLs for faster Speed on an attack. I.e., a skill level can be used to add 1 to Speed for determining AC for the attack.
Possibly 2 CSLs, depending on how much of a limitation you really think 'speed only for combat' is.

[Klaus Mogensen]

What might work is to allow trading CSLs for faster Speed on an attack. I.e., a skill level can be used to add 1 to Speed for determining AC for the attack.

Possibly 2 CSLs, depending on how much of a limitation you really think 'speed only for combat' is.
As I imagine it, Speed costs 2 points per +1. Since the smallest skill levels you can exchange for damage or Speed are 3-point levels, I think requiring 2 levels is excessive - particularly as this only covers a narrow group of attacks.

- Klaus

[Hugh Neilson]

More crossposting


So... is there anything in the rules saying you can´t do a Move By while using a Ranged weapon?

For instance, let´s say the Bad Guys pile into a car and drive to escape from Mr. Pistol. Mr. Pistol runs as fast as he can to keep pace with the car (at least until it accelarates faster than he can run), and fires in through the window in an attempt to take out the driver/stop the fiends from getting away.

Now, sure.... I could deal with this with a tiny handwave. After all, movement is broken down because it´s necessary to do so. It´s not like the character necessarily stops after 6 hexes, and then starts again...

But if I could do it with a Move By, I´d really like that. I think it would work really nicely with the whole move and fire thing (i.e. it´s a consistent application of the system) and reflects the difficulties of moving and firing at the same time.

Thoughts?

I'd like to see this added as a 6e maneuver.

I am inclined to treat this the same as a Move By except:

- no damage bonus for velocity
- no halving of damage from the actual attack
- all penalties for range are doubled (it's even harder to account for range while moving)

[Hugh Neilson]

You can get multiple attacks out of the Move By Sean suggests by combining it with Rapid Attack. Really, there's no reason Multiple Move By needs to stick around - it's only a variant of Sweep.

More crossposting

[Netzilla]

More crossposting

I still think Move By, Sweep, Rapid Attack and Multiple Power Attacks should all be rolled into one manuever:
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1645371#post1645371

[ghost-angel]

Suggested Maneuver Addition:

Strafe - 1/2 Phase; -2 OCV; -2 DCV; FMove, Attack (Ranged or HtH)

other values suggested of 1/2 DCV have been thought of.

Basically- we'd like a standard Combat Maneuver that allows a Full Move and Ranged Attack to be used together. Like a Strafing Run.

[Hugh Neilson]

I still think Move By, Sweep, Rapid Attack and Multiple Power Attacks should all be rolled into one manuever:
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1645371#post1645371

I disagree with MPA's. That approach would require all Linked attacks to take this penalty. A 10d6 EB with 2d6 Sight Flash is not the same as the other examples above.


Suggested Maneuver Addition:

Strafe - 1/2 Phase; -2 OCV; -2 DCV; FMove, Attack (Ranged or HtH)

other values suggested of 1/2 DCV have been thought of.

Basically- we'd like a standard Combat Maneuver that allows a Full Move and Ranged Attack to be used together. Like a Strafing Run.

Maybe I should have mentioned I was cross posting in that thread...

[The Main Man]

Suggested Maneuver Addition:

Strafe - 1/2 Phase; -2 OCV; -2 DCV; FMove, Attack (Ranged or HtH)

other values suggested of 1/2 DCV have been thought of.

Basically- we'd like a standard Combat Maneuver that allows a Full Move and Ranged Attack to be used together. Like a Strafing Run.

I've suggested before that Move-By/Through should be usable with Ranged attacks - I personally find that to be a simple change to the Basic Combat Maneuvers.

[Klaus Mogensen]

I've been giving my Segmented Action System (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1810186&postcount=1253) some more thought in order to simplify it. Here's what I've come up with:

Segmented Action System

A Turn consists of 24 segments of ½ second each.
Actions take a certain number of segments to perform.
Actions will take place on the segment they are initiated, and other actions can't normally be initiated until the duration runs out.
Reactions (Dodging, Blocking, etc.) can be done out of turn. They delay your next normal action by as many segments as they are used.
Example: If you Dodge attacks for two segments, your next normal action is delayed two segments.
A new Speed primary characteristic governs the duration or Combat Speed (CS) of non-defensive combat actions. CS = 120/Speed, rounded up (see table below).
Speed costs 2 per +1 and also governs initiative.
You can use combat skill levels to increase your Speed (and hence reduce CS) for an attack. Each CSL increases Speed by 1.
A non-combat move takes 6 segments. Normal human non-combat Running is base 12m, max 20m.
A character's combat move is (non-combat move)*CS/12, rounded down. This is how much you can move while making a combat action. Moving more than half this gives you -2 DCV.
Example: Your non-combat move is 35m, and your CS is 8. Your combat move is 35m*8/12 = 23.33m, rounded down to 23m.
Damage from continuing effects normally take effect every 6 segments. Advantages can increase this rate.
Shifting skill levels or Framework slots can be done freely at the beginning of a combat action, but if it is done in connection with a reaction, it delays the next normal action by an additional two segments.



Speed: 10 11 12 14 15 18 20 24 30 40 60
CS: 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2
~ SPD: 2 2.2 2.4 2.7 3 3.4 4 4.8 6 8 12

Notes:

I rather dislike having to calculate combat move, but the alternative is using segmented movement, which besides from being a hassle also requires measuring movement in fractions of meters. If anyone can see a way around this, I'd be happy.
The listed normal human maximum non-combat maximum of 20m corresponds exactly to a 4-minute mile.


- Klaus

[Hugh Neilson]

OK, first I'm not in favour of ditching the SPD chart in any case. That said, let's look at this option.


I've been giving my Segmented Action System (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1810186&postcount=1253) some more thought in order to simplify it. Here's what I've come up with:

Segmented Action System

A Turn consists of 24 segments of ½ second each.
Actions take a certain number of segments to perform.
Actions will take place on the segment they are initiated, and other actions can't normally be initiated until the duration runs out.
Reactions (Dodging, Blocking, etc.) can be done out of turn. They delay your next normal action by as many segments as they are used.
Example: If you Dodge attacks for two segments, your next normal action is delayed two segments.

So I can abort to Dodge or Block each time I am attacked and only delay my next action by 1 segment for each segment it needs to be used? In a one on one fight, why would I NOT Block or Dodge when my opponent uses an attack that's going to cost him several segments?

How does this change the "multiple block" penalty? Do I reset to no penalty at each new segment, or does it keep accumulating until I take a different action, such that continuous blocking never refreshes?

Is Missile Deflection assumed to function identically to Blocking?


A new Speed primary characteristic governs the duration or Combat Speed (CS) of non-defensive combat actions. CS = 120/Speed, rounded up (see table below).

That's going to create a lot of rounding breakpoints, isn't it? I'm unclear what "starting SPD" will be. I'm assuming 10 on the basis that you equate this to a 2 SPD. That means an attack will take me 12 segments - Dodging or Blocking the other guy's attack will make that 13 (and will Blocking mean I automatically go before him next time?).


Speed costs 2 per +1 and also governs initiative.

How does it govern initiative? Simple "highest number goes first", so all those points between rounding breakpoints serve at least some purpose? How do we cost Lightning Reflexes under this model? ie What's the limitation for SPD that only enhances initiative or, I suppose, for SPD that does not enhance initiative? I would hope the two added together are not far off the cost of SPD in total.


You can use combat skill levels to increase your Speed (and hence reduce CS) for an attack. Each CSL increases Speed by 1.

Can I use this for a Dodge or a Block? Assuming I can, what impact does it have on the 1 segment a Dodge or Block would typically take?


A non-combat move takes 6 segments. Normal human non-combat Running is base 12m, max 20m.
A character's combat move is (non-combat move)*CS/12, rounded down. This is how much you can move while making a combat action. Moving more than half this gives you -2 DCV.
Example: Your non-combat move is 35m, and your CS is 8. Your combat move is 35m*8/12 = 23.33m, rounded down to 23m.

So for Joe Normal, his non-combat move is 12m, and his CS is 12. His combat move is 12m*12/12 = 12m. So he can run 24 meters per turn at -2 DCV (DCV 1 assuming a 10 DEX), or he can run 48 meters per turn (noncombat) at 0 DCV. That's doubled speed for -1 DCV. Is that a reasonable result?

Currently, he could run 12 m per phase, or 24 m per turn, doubled to 48 if he goes noncombat. He gets to attack (albeit at -2 DCV) even if he makes what would be full moves under the current system, so movement in combat can be enhanced considerably.


Damage from continuing effects normally take effect every 6 segments. Advantages can increase this rate.

Normals need to buy continuous damage - it will inflict damage much faster than they could by simply continuing to attack. That's true up to 20 SPD, even assuming they never delay to Dodge, Block, etc.


Shifting skill levels or Framework slots can be done freely at the beginning of a combat action, but if it is done in connection with a reaction, it delays the next normal action by an additional two segments.

So I can Dodge for only a 1 segment delay, but if I also want to shift a skill level to DCV, I lose another 2 segments? That doesn't sound exceptionally balanced to me.

What about other reactions? Maybe I want to Dive for Cover, turn Desolid or activate my Force Field, for example.

How does Extra Time impact these costs? What's the change for an attack that would currently have Delayed Action (act at half your DEX), Full Phase or Extra Phase? When does a Haymaker take effect? How long does a Recovery take? Once we get to "full turn" and above, it becomes easy since a turn is the same length in either case.






Speed: 10 11 12 14 15 18 20 24 30 40 60
CS: 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2
~ SPD: 2 2.2 2.4 2.7 3 3.4 4 4.8 6 8 12

As the numbers get higher, the rounding gets much more significant. Investing 60 points to go from 10 to 40 gets me a bit more benefit than buying my SPD up to 7. After that, diminishing returns kick in. I get a lot for the next 20, but nothing for 19 or less, so SPD 8 - 11 have disappeared.

Higher SPD characters also lose a lot more for aborting/reacting. When your next action is 8 segments later, bumping it up to 9 to Block, or 11 to Block and shift levels, isn't that big a deal. If your next action should be in 2 segments, bumping that up to 5 in order to Dodge (and high SPD guys historically have low defenses and do a lot of Dodging) seems like it would be pretty painful. The fixed cost of reacting seems to penalize higher speeds.

How does spillover work? If I act in segment 21 and my CS is 5, I assume I act next in Segment 2 next turn.

What happens if I reserve? Does the count start from the segment in which I actually act, so I delay future actions as well as the current one by reserving?

[BobGreenwade]

Personally, I like the SPD Chart as it is (with maybe a little tweaking), but I could certainly get behind some of these alternate methods being brought up in the Advanced rulebook. They're very creatively and cleverly done.

[Klaus Mogensen]

So I can abort to Dodge or Block each time I am attacked and only delay my next action by 1 segment for each segment it needs to be used? In a one on one fight, why would I NOT Block or Dodge when my opponent uses an attack that's going to cost him several segments?
This was based on the system in Feng Shui, where actively dodging an attack (+3 defense) cost 1 segment. However, a typical attack there costs 3 segments, where a typical attack in this system is about 6 segments, so perhaps the cost should be increased to 2 segments, equal to the most rapid attack. As for why you would NOT choose to Block or Dodge: Slow characters will probably always do so in a 1-on-1 fight, but isn't that realistic? Boxers do block and weave all the time. However, if you're facing many opponents, dodging them all might mean you never get to attack.


How does this change the "multiple block" penalty? Do I reset to no penalty at each new segment, or does it keep accumulating until I take a different action, such that continuous blocking never refreshes?
I hadn't considered that. Perhaps continuous blocking should refresh every turn. Or perhaps Block, being a kind of attack versus attacks, should cost the same as an attack, but only build up penalties while it lasts.


How does it govern initiative? Simple "highest number goes first", so all those points between rounding breakpoints serve at least some purpose? How do we cost Lightning Reflexes under this model? ie What's the limitation for SPD that only enhances initiative or, I suppose, for SPD that does not enhance initiative? I would hope the two added together are not far off the cost of SPD in total.
Highest number goes first, as for DEX. I think initiative is so small a part of the characteristic that "doesn't increase initiative" doesn't warrant even a -1/4 limitation - or would you allow that on DEX? "Only for initiative" is probably at least a -2 limitation.


Can I use this for a Dodge or a Block?
Since Speed doesn't influence the duration of reactions, of course increasing Speed through skill levels will have no effect on reactions. I though that would be obvious.


So for Joe Normal, his non-combat move is 12m, and his CS is 12. His combat move is 12m*12/12 = 12m. So he can run 24 meters per turn at -2 DCV (DCV 1 assuming a 10 DEX), or he can run 48 meters per turn (noncombat) at 0 DCV. That's doubled speed for -1 DCV. Is that a reasonable result?
Currently, if Joe Normal makes a combat action that includes a full move (Move By or Move Through), he gets -2 or -3 DCV. Same result.


Currently, he could run 12 m per phase, or 24 m per turn, doubled to 48 if he goes noncombat. He gets to attack (albeit at -2 DCV) even if he makes what would be full moves under the current system, so movement in combat can be enhanced considerably.
The -2 DCV for full-moving in combat is supposed to represent the penalties for Move By and Move Through, which I think should be managed as combat modifiers for moving and multiple attacks rather than as specific, unflexible maneuvers.


Normals need to buy continuous damage - it will inflict damage much faster than they could by simply continuing to attack. That's true up to 20 SPD, even assuming they never delay to Dodge, Block, etc.
Even better, normals should buy Autofire attacks, so they can attack a whole bunch of targets at once. ;)


So I can Dodge for only a 1 segment delay, but if I also want to shift a skill level to DCV, I lose another 2 segments? That doesn't sound exceptionally balanced to me.
This is to prevent characters from turtling up buy swithcing levels to DCV and multipowers to defense every time they get attacked.


What about other reactions? Maybe I want to Dive for Cover, turn Desolid or activate my Force Field, for example.
Dive for Cover probably includes as half move, and hence should take 3 segments. I haven't considered the others yet.

[/quote]How does Extra Time impact these costs?[/quote]
Obviously by increasing the Combat Speed for the attack.


What's the change for an attack that would currently have Delayed Action (act at half your DEX), Full Phase or Extra Phase? When does a Haymaker take effect?
All these mean that the attack doesn't take effect on the first segment of the duration, as is normal, but on a later segment.


How long does a Recovery take?
That would probably be a combat action and hence take as long as a standard attack.


As the numbers get higher, the rounding gets much more significant. Investing 60 points to go from 10 to 40 gets me a bit more benefit than buying my SPD up to 7. After that, diminishing returns kick in. I get a lot for the next 20, but nothing for 19 or less, so SPD 8 - 11 have disappeared.
Every +5 Speed corresponds to +1 SPD under the current system. The difference is that there are more breakpoints at the low (normal human) end, but fewer at the high (high-powered superhuman) end. I consider this an improvement. Under the current system, the lowest step up from Joe Normal is 50% more actions; under this system, it's 9% more actions.


Higher SPD characters also lose a lot more for aborting/reacting. When your next action is 8 segments later, bumping it up to 9 to Block, or 11 to Block and shift levels, isn't that big a deal. If your next action should be in 2 segments, bumping that up to 5 in order to Dodge (and high SPD guys historically have low defenses and do a lot of Dodging) seems like it would be pretty painful. The fixed cost of reacting seems to penalize higher speeds.
Ah, but higher-Speed characters are likely to be attacked fewer times between their own attacks, so it evens out. If Joe Slow is attacked three times in the first part of the turn, he loses 6 segments (with the adjusted cost of 2 segments per reaction) before he can attack, but Jack Quick only loses 2 segments per attack he makes (because his attacks come up faster).
This is a change from now, where Joe Slow loses half his actions if he chooses to Dodge a single attack, where a SPD 5 character only loses 20% of his actions doing the same. I would say this stops penalizing the slow guy as much as now.




[quote]What happens if I reserve? Does the count start from the segment in which I actually act, so I delay future actions as well as the current one by reserving?
I would say that you can always delay an attack to a later segment in its duration, but after that, you start eating up segments. This is more flexible than now, where you lose an entire phase if you delay beyond the start of your next phase.

There are some details that need to be worked out for this to work smoothly, but in the end I think it is no more complex than the current SPD system, but more flexible. The question is of course if "no more complex" is good enough.

- Klaus

[Hugh Neilson]

This was based on the system in Feng Shui, where actively dodging an attack (+3 defense) cost 1 segment. However, a typical attack there costs 3 segments, where a typical attack in this system is about 6 segments, so perhaps the cost should be increased to 2 segments, equal to the most rapid attack. As for why you would NOT choose to Block or Dodge: Slow characters will probably always do so in a 1-on-1 fight, but isn't that realistic? Boxers do block and weave all the time. However, if you're facing many opponents, dodging them all might mean you never get to attack.

There's always a tradeoff between realism and game balance. Why should I use my Defensive Strike as an attack action to get +2 DCV and lose damage classes when I can use my Martial Dodge when my opponent attacks me, then let lose with an Offensive Strike for way more DC's, relying on Reacting again when I'm counterattacked.


Highest number goes first, as for DEX. I think initiative is so small a part of the characteristic that "doesn't increase initiative" doesn't warrant even a -1/4 limitation - or would you allow that on DEX? "Only for initiative" is probably at least a -2 limitation.

I think Lightning Reflexes is vastly overpriced now, so I'd be OK with, say, -1/4 for "no initiative bonus" (cost 80% of base cost) and -4 "only initiative" (20% of base cost).


Since Speed doesn't influence the duration of reactions, of course increasing Speed through skill levels will have no effect on reactions. I though that would be obvious.

Obvious, yes. But I view the inability to gain speed with dodging, blocking or other defensive maneuvers if you can be faster with offensive maneuvers to be a detriment to the system. It would be pretty simple to just leave defensive maneuvers as ordinary attack costs.


Even better, normals should buy Autofire attacks, so they can attack a whole bunch of targets at once. ;)

The advantage of attacking more targets at once is the same whatever your SPD - every attack you hit more targets. A Continuous attack allows me to do damage every 6 segments whether I would normally take 12-15 segments, or 2-3 segments to get another attack. Given the choice of doing damage every 12 segments and having no other actions, or doing damage every 6 segments and having my actions freed up to dodge, block, move, etc. , the continuous attack seems a clear winner for lower SPD characters.


This is to prevent characters from turtling up buy swithcing levels to DCV and multipowers to defense every time they get attacked.

But it's OK to turtle up by switching to [Martial] Dodge (if I have few/no levels, of they're already set to DCV) or [martial] Block (if I have lots of levels currently set to OCV) at a minimal time cost. Sounds like a big advantage for martial artists.


There are some details that need to be worked out for this to work smoothly, but in the end I think it is no more complex than the current SPD system, but more flexible. The question is of course if "no more complex" is good enough.

Bottom line to me is that I don't see this as a marked improvement over the current system. It has some pluses, and some minuses. I don't see the point of a massive change without a massive benefit.

[Hugh Neilson]

Not directly related to the Speed issue, but relevant to it, I would hope that a change this significant would be playtested extensively before any rule change is finalized. "I haven't considered that yet" is reasonable on a thread like this where we toss out ideas, but it's clearly not the answer we want to see frequently on the 6e Rules Questions forum.

[Netzilla]

One of the differences between the FS init system and what I think Klaus is proposing is that in FS a dodge is good only for a specific attack (there are powers that work different, however). So, if you've got multiple folks attacking you, you can eat up a lot of time dodging.

In a one-on-one fight in FS, it's pretty common to dodge until you get a chance to attack (unless your foe is a lot faster than you), at which point the other guy dodges and it goes back-and-forth. If the other guy is faster, you need to do something creative to trip him up.

[IndianaJoe3]

Time for my final thoughts on Combat.

Beginning Combat
Combat always begins on a special Segment, called Segment Zero. All SPDs get an action, in DEX order. (SPD 1 would not get an action if combat began on Segment 12.) Movement is somewhat restricted – all characters get their base movement divided by the highest non-surprised SPD, rather than their own SPD. After Segment Zero, all characters take a Recovery identical to a Post-Segment 12 Recovery.

[The Main Man]

My final $.02 on Combat:

Combat should become more like a highly expanded skill (I understand that future HERO supplements are in fact going to be headed somewhat in this direction?), leaving the door open for other skills to be expanded like so.

Combat Value and the DEX bonus should be one and the same calculation.

I think that a compromise of DEX (or EGO as it may be)/4 would suffice - more granularity for Skills, and stock in CSL's goes up.

The base for Skills and Combat becomes 11.

[Klaus Mogensen]

Before the threads are locked, I'd like to argue for my suggestion of replacing the PD/ED split of defenses with Stun Defense and Body Defense (SD/BD):

This split is based on mechanical differences in damage rather than SFX and will hence always be balanced, while the relative values of PD and ED will vary greatly with setting.
Automatons, Force Walls and dead objects will only need BD.
Currently, normal damage does 3½ times as much Stun damage as Body damage. This means that any defense that gives decent protection against Stun will most likely give total defense against Body, and this will not fit all campaign styles. This problem goes away if BD caps can be set differently from SD caps.

I suggest costs of 2 points for +1 SD or BD. Obviously, the costs of SD and BD should be significantly higher than the costs of Stun and Body, and 2x seems reasonable. Currently, PD/ED that protects against an average/maximum 2d6 costs 14/24 points. SD/BD with the same protection will cost 18/32 points. This is a bit more, but I feel that defenses currently are too cheap compared to buying up Stun/Body.

Damage Resistance would be +1 per resistant BD (~ a +1 advantage).

Force Fields would be 1 point per SD and 1½ per resistant BD, with Armor being Persistent FF at twice this.

- Klaus

[Klaus Mogensen]

I thought of something that will simplify my suggestion for a segmented action system and at the same time increase granularity at the high end:

Segmented Action System
An alternative to the SPD chart

A turn is 12 segments of 1 seconds each (like now).
Attacks have a duration in segments that depends on a new Speed primary characteristic (base 10, NCM 20).
All other actions have a fixed duration of 2 segments.
The effect of an action is usually on the first segment of the duration, but you can delay that. If you delay beyond the normal duration of the action, the duration is extended by this delay.
Reactions (Dodge, Block, Dive for Cover, turning a defensive power on) can be done out of turn; i.e., during the duration of another action (though not on the segment this action takes effect). A Reaction extends the duration of the interrupted action by 2 segments. The defensive qualities of a Reaction lasts throughout its duration, which can be extended.
Attack Cost or AC (the duration of an attack) = 60/Speed, rounded up (see table below).
Option for high-powered campaigns: Above NCM, every +5 Speed over a breakpoint (Speed 20 for AC 3, Speed 30 for AC 2) gives you two "speed tokens". A speed token can be used once per turn to reduce the AC of a single attack action or Reaction by 1. You cannot spend more than 1 token per action.
You can shift skill levels or framework slots at no cost at the beginning of any action or Reaction.
Actions can cross over into the next turn. This delays when you can take your first action on that turn.
Normal human base/max Running is 4m/7m per move action (x2 non-combat).
You can combine movement with an attack action; this extends the duration of the attack by 1 segment for a half move or 2 segments for a full move.




Speed: 10 12 15 20 25 30 35 40 45 50 55 60
AC: 6 5 4 3 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 1
Tokens: - - - - 2 - 2 4 6 8 10 -
~ SPD: 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

Notes:

You could allow +1 speed token at Speeds 18, 23, 28, etc., for finer granularity.
This system automatically decouples movement from Speed.
Normal human maximum non-combat running corresponds to running a mile in 3:50. The world record is 3:43.
The Speed characteristic could also replace Dex as the governor of initiative.

- Klaus

[Hugh Neilson]

I thought of something that will simplify my suggestion for a segmented action system and at the same time increase granularity at the high end:

Segmented Action System
An alternative to the SPD chart
[LIST]
A turn is 12 segments of 1 seconds each (like now).
Attacks have a duration in segments that depends on a new Speed primary characteristic (base 10, NCM 20).
All other actions have a fixed duration of 2 segments.

I pick the lock, or rebuild my gun from scratch, or write War and Peace. Any of which take only 2 segments. But I won't speak in combat any more, since a speech takes 2 segments. I suggest, instead, that this change would require other actions be assigned a time cost. Skills should be included, with penalties for speeding it up and bonuses for slowing it down - but that should be done regardless of whether the Speed chart is retained.


The effect of an action is usually on the first segment of the duration, but you can delay that. If you delay beyond the normal duration of the action, the duration is extended by this delay.

So essentially, reserving or delaying delays all my future actions an equivalent amount.


Reactions (Dodge, Block, Dive for Cover, turning a defensive power on) can be done out of turn; i.e., during the duration of another action (though not on the segment this action takes effect). A Reaction extends the duration of the interrupted action by 2 segments. The defensive qualities of a Reaction lasts throughout its duration, which can be extended.

IOW, I can keep Dodging as long as I want, but at least until 2 segments later than my next action would normally come up. Seems like a reasonable result.


Attack Cost or AC (the duration of an attack) = 60/Speed, rounded up (see table below).

Just occurred to me that you haven't mentioned a cost of SPD. 2 points per would mean 100 points to max out, like a 10 DEX character under the current model.


Option for high-powered campaigns: Above NCM, every +5 Speed over a breakpoint (Speed 20 for AC 3, Speed 30 for AC 2) gives you two "speed tokens". A speed token can be used once per turn to reduce the AC of a single attack action or Reaction by 1. You cannot spend more than 1 token per action.

Can I buy my SPD above 60 to reduce the cost of reactions (seems kind of stupid that I take 1 segment to attack but 3 if I add a dodge or block when a Normal takes 6 segments to attack, but 8 if he Blocks or Dodges, and someone really slow needs 12 segments to attack, and 14 if he Blocks or Dodges).


You can shift skill levels or framework slots at no cost at the beginning of any action or Reaction.
Actions can cross over into the next turn. This delays when you can take your first action on that turn.

As I read this, it seems to make sense that combat starts on Segment 1 and, since no one has an action or reaction, they simply all move on Segment 1. After the first turn, we'd see the spillover effect. If you have to React to activate your force field to defend against someone who acts earlier in Segment 1, then you'll get your next move in Segment 3, I guess.


Normal human base/max Running is 4m/7m per move action (x2 non-combat).

This must be the New Math. When I learned math, 4 x 2 = 8. If my Running had been bought up to 8m, would my max be 16m (2x), 14m (same 7/4 ratio) or 15 m (same double minus 1 formula)?


You can combine movement with an attack action; this extends the duration of the attack by 1 segment for a half move or 2 segments for a full move.

So movement is not divorced from SPD, then. But moving in combat has a much more substantial impact on # of attacks as my SPD increases. At 20 SPD, I can attack every 3 segments (4 times per turn), but that becomes every 4 segments (3 times per turn) if I add in half moves, and every 5 segments (2.4 times per turn) if I add in full moves.




Speed: 10 12 15 20 25 30 35 40 45 50 55 60
AC: 6 5 4 3 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 1
Tokens: - - - - 2 - 2 4 6 8 10 -
~ SPD: 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
[LIST]
You could allow +1 speed token at Speeds 18, 23, 28, etc., for finer granularity.

Even with the speed tokens, and the finer granularity option, we still have a few dead spaces. Still, no worse than many other primary characteristics.


This system automatically decouples movement from Speed.

Does it? If I have a 60 SPD, I can run full movement 4 times per turn and attack 4 times per turn. Can I choose to JUST move full out at a cost of 2 segments per (ie is that an "other action")? Can I choose to half move at the cost of 1 segment each (an exception to "other actions cost 2 segments")?

I remain in the "keep the SPD chart" camp. Even if I thought this superior, the playtesting required would be substantial.

[Klaus Mogensen]

I pick the lock, or rebuild my gun from scratch, or write War and Peace. Any of which take only 2 segments. But I won't speak in combat any more, since a speech takes 2 segments. I suggest, instead, that this change would require other actions be assigned a time cost. Skills should be included, with penalties for speeding it up and bonuses for slowing it down - but that should be done regardless of whether the Speed chart is retained.
Right you are - I meant all combat-related actions would take two segments.


So essentially, reserving or delaying delays all my future actions an equivalent amount.
Only if you delay beyond the normal duration of the action - corresponding to delaying into your next phase with the current rules.


Just occurred to me that you haven't mentioned a cost of SPD. 2 points per would mean 100 points to max out, like a 10 DEX character under the current model.
Ah, yes, the cost vanished in my editing. It is supposed to be two points.


Can I buy my SPD above 60 to reduce the cost of reactions (seems kind of stupid that I take 1 segment to attack but 3 if I add a dodge or block when a Normal takes 6 segments to attack, but 8 if he Blocks or Dodges, and someone really slow needs 12 segments to attack, and 14 if he Blocks or Dodges).
Good point. Perhaps Speed 60 should simply get you 12 speed tokens instead of reducing AC to 1.


As I read this, it seems to make sense that combat starts on Segment 1 and, since no one has an action or reaction, they simply all move on Segment 1. After the first turn, we'd see the spillover effect. If you have to React to activate your force field to defend against someone who acts earlier in Segment 1, then you'll get your next move in Segment 3, I guess.
This is indeed how I intended it to work.


This must be the New Math. When I learned math, 4 x 2 = 8. If my Running had been bought up to 8m, would my max be 16m (2x), 14m (same 7/4 ratio) or 15 m (same double minus 1 formula)?
You misunderstand. Human base move is 4m; human maximum is 7m. If you move non-combat, these numbers are doubled.


So movement is not divorced from SPD, then.
Yes it is - a full move always takes 2 segments. The maximum you can move in a turn is six full moves, regardless of your Speed.


Even with the speed tokens, and the finer granularity option, we still have a few dead spaces. Still, no worse than many other primary characteristics.
And better than SPD now. :)


Can I choose to half move at the cost of 1 segment each (an exception to "other actions cost 2 segments")?
As I imagine it, you would only be able to half-move in connection with combat. This may seem odd, but it is to prevent too much micro-movement.

- Klaus

[Hugh Neilson]

Good point. Perhaps Speed 60 should simply get you 12 speed tokens instead of reducing AC to 1.

Having Dodge and Block, etc., take the same time regardless of how fast you can take other actions just feels off to me. If reaction simply pre-started your next move (so you've taken your next Action and cannot react again until its duration is expired), then actions like Dodge could have the same cost as any other combat maneuver.


As I imagine it, you would only be able to half-move in connection with combat. This may seem odd, but it is to prevent too much micro-movement.

So I can't make a half move and then delay my remaining action?

[ajackson]

Here's a somewhat more radical speed system. Basically, speed no longer exists as a separate ability -- you can buy 'speed' levels, or you can spend normal levels to take actions faster. The level cost depends on how fast you do the action, in general being +4 levels to halve time.
8 shots: 0 levels
7 shots: 1 level
6 shots: 2 level
5 shots: 3 levels
4 shots: 4 levels
3 shots: 6 levels
2 shots: 8 levels
1 shot: 12 levels

It works out that reducing your shot cost is efficient if your hit chance is 14 or better. This also has the benefit of allowing speed to be directly plugged into any power level formulas. Further on this scheme:
Movement: it normally takes 1 shot to move one hex; movement powers can increase the hexes per shot. This is normally added to the shot cost of your action, but actions may not exceed 8 shots. You may spend 4 levels to combine moving and attacking (using the same shots for both).
Aborting: dodging works just like any other combat move.

[The Main Man]

This sounds similar to an earlier idea that I once had which involved all characters to start out at 2 SPD and the act of using more phases was akin to using the Hurry Maneuver.

A character that could reliably use more than 2 Phases/Turn would buy either CSL's or PSL's (not sure which) to counteract the penalties.

Similarly, I do not think that such a Maneuver would be out of line for 6e in which characters can act on more Phases than they bought - They are simply penalized.

I think that -2 OCV/-2 DCV would suffice, with the catch being that the penalty both accumulates and it persists through the entire Turn until it resets at Segment 12.

[Klaus Mogensen]

Having Dodge and Block, etc., take the same time regardless of how fast you can take other actions just feels off to me. If reaction simply pre-started your next move (so you've taken your next Action and cannot react again until its duration is expired), then actions like Dodge could have the same cost as any other combat maneuver.
I guess Reactions could be changed to take as much time as attacks, though that would mean that you very rarely will see slow characters dodge or block.


So I can't make a half move and then delay my remaining action?
It does make sense to allow single-segment movement. I just worry that it might slow action down. I guess playtesting could tell that.

- Klaus

[BlackSword]

Attacks have a duration in segments that depends on a new Speed primary characteristic (base 10, NCM 20).

Overall I like your system. Though it might require some reworking of your numbers one addition I would like to see is that an attack has its own speed (completely random thought Active Points/10), and the duration cost for an attack would be AC + (Attack Duration). An advantage or adder could be used to decrease an attack's duration, a disadvantage could be used to increase an attack's duration.

[ajackson]

I guess Reactions could be changed to take as much time as attacks, though that would mean that you very rarely will see slow characters dodge or block.
That's not really a big change from the current system.

[AnotherSkip]

1. Some of the more unbalancing optional combat manuvers should have Caution and or Stop signs attached to them.
2. Rapid attack should be extended over multible phases (thus each attack in a rapid attack takes either 1 second or possibly 2 per second to simulate two handed versions of Rapid attack).

[AnotherSkip]

Randomizing intitiative
Dex/5= # of dice to roll for intiative...

What do you guys think of this as an optional idea?

and to make every point count the leftover/remainder is a straight add

[Hugh Neilson]

Randomizing intitiative
Dex/5= # of dice to roll for intiative...

What do you guys think of this as an optional idea?

and to make every point count the leftover/remainder is a straight add

I think it makes the leftover more valuable than the DEX, since I get 1d6 for 5 points (3.5 average), but +4 for an extra 4 points. Maybe DEX/3?

I also think this belongs as an optional rule in the APG, but I want to relegate virtually every Optional Rule to the APG and have core rules you play out of the box.

[AnotherSkip]

But he evil thing is you only get +1-4 you can't buy straight adds. :)

[Balabanto]

Re-doing the SPD chart may not be that productive. I'm worried that it won't be Hero anymore if that happens.

[Steve Long]

Hey folx! It's time for me to start reading all the 6E threads, and that means I need to lock them.

Hopefully 15 months has been plenty of time for anyone who wanted to have a say, to have a say. ;) So please, don't start up other threads to try to continue discussions, send me PMs with points you "just have to make," or anything like that. It's time for y'all to sit back, relax, have a frosty beverage, and let me get 6E written. ;)

We definitely appreciate everyone's interest, participation, and ideas! I'm looking forward to reading the posts and seeing what nuggets of wisdom lurk therein. I have no doubt 6E is going to be even better than it would have been because of our fans' enthusiastic efforts at providing us with input and suggestions. :hex: