Power Frameworks Issues

[Klaus Mogensen]

What it really needs is the reach a "final proposal stage" and be written up in clear language (and not be changed again). Its in several posts and has evolved. Unless someone was a part of the discussion it would be hard to figure out. Its worth really looking at, IMO.

Well, here's a go at it. It is a bit longish, but remember that it is going to replace half a dozen pages in the rulebook.

OMNIPOOL
An OmniPool allows several conceptually linked Powers to be collected in a single framework. The character gets a point break compared to buying the Powers seperately, at the cost of some freedom:

All the Powers in an OmniPool must belong to the same overarching concept. The Powers can be considered different aspects of the same power, e.g. a telekinetic force or an elemental power. If a Power doesn't fit into the overarching concept, it doesn't belong in the OmniPool. The GM is the final arbitrator in how broad an OmniPool concept can be.
If one of the Powers in the OmniPool is Drained or Suppressed, the other Powers are likewise affected (they are, after all, aspects of the same power)
Depending on how the OmniPool is bought, it may not be possible to use all the Powers in the OmniPool at the same time.

OmniPool Structure
An OmniPool consists of a number of Powers and two Limits.

Active Limit: No Power in the OmniPool can have an Active Cost greater than the Active Limit. Linked Powers that go off together count as one Power for this purpose.
Real Limit: The total Real Cost of Powers in the OmniPool that are active at one time cannot exceed the Real Limit. If you e.g. want two Powers of Real Cost 60 and 30 to be active at the same time, the Real Limit should be at least 90.
Powers: Powers are bought in Power Slots. A Power Slot can consist of one or more Powers. The cost of a Power Slot depends on how flexible access to the Powers in the Slot are. There are three different types of Power Slots: A Fixed Slot, a Scalable Slot and a Variable Slot (which itself comes in four varieties). Variable Slots allow great flexibility, but are a bit complex in use and are hence only recoomended for experienced players.

Power Slots

Fixed Slot: When a Power in a Fixed Slot is active, the full Real Cost of the Power in the Slot counts towards the Real Limit, even if the Power isn't used at full power.
Scalable Slot: The player can decide from phase to phase how much of a Power in a Scalable Slot that is active, and only this portion of the Power counts towards the Real Limit.
Variable Slot: A Variable Slot can be a different Power or combination of Powers every time it is used. A Variable Slot can be Fast or Slow depending on how easy it is to change the Power(s) in the Slot, and it can be Free or Limited depending on the range of Powers available. All Variable Slots are Scalable.

A Fast Slot can be changed instantly. Changing a Fast Slot can be either conscious or automatic (not both). If conscious, you can change the Power(s) as a 0-phase action. If automatic, the Power(s) change to fit the circumstances without conscious character control (and will change even if the character is unconscious). This is e.g. suitable for an adaptive power that changes to fit a certain environment or the last attack the character was hit by.
A Slow Slot can only be changed between scenes. Changing a Slow Slot usually requires several hours of tinkering or meditation and most likely access to a workshop and/or a collection of reference manuals (e.g. magic tomes). The exact circumstances depend on the overarching concept of the OmniPool.
A Free Slot can be changed into any Power(s) that fit within the overarching concept of the OmniPool.
A Limited Slot can only be changed into a narrow range of Power(s). In general, the Powers in a Limited Slot must do more or less the same thing, e.g. be different variations of a fire attack, different Movement Powers, different Drains, or different defenses. The GM may allow different kinds of restrictions on the range of Powers, e.g only Powers the character's current opponent has (a mimic power), but the range of Powers should be much narrower than what is allowed by the overarching concept of the OmniPool.

OmniPool Cost

Active Limit: Cost = 1 point per 2 points of maximum Active Cost. If a Limitation is shared among all Powers in the OmniPool, the same Limitation can be taken on the cost of the Active Limit.
Real Limit: Cost = 1 point per 2 points of maximum active Real Cost. No Limitations can be taken on the cost of the Real Limit.
Fixed Slot: Cost = 1 point per 10 points Real Cost of the Power(s) in the Fixed Slot.
Scalable Slot: Cost = 1 point per 5 points Real Cost of the Power(s) in the Scalable Slot.
Variable Slot: Cost depends on the combination of Fast, Slow, Free, and Limited:
A Fast, Free Slot costs 3 character points for every 2 points of Real Cost.
A Fast, Limited Slot costs 1 character point for every 1 point of Real Cost.
A Slow, Free Slot costs 1 character point for every 2 points of Real Cost.
A Slow, Limited Slot costs 1 character point for every 3 points of Real Cost.

__________________________________________________ _______________________

Example: Shape-Change OmniPool
23 Active Limit 46
45 Real Limit 90
05 Fixed Slot: Shape Shift All Shapes, 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
09 Scaleable Slot: Growth rank 6, 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
09 Scaleable Slot:Shrinking rank 3, 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
09 Scaleable Slot: Stretching 6", 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
30 Variable Slot (Fast, Limited): Any Movement Power that fits shape. Real Cost 30
Total Cost: 130


Example: Elemental Magic OmniPool
10 Active Limit 50, Limitation: All Powers require Gestures (-½), Incantations (-½) and Extra Time (-½)
20 Real Limit 40
15 Variable Slot (Fast, Free): Real Cost 10
10 Variable Slot (Slow, Free): Real Cost 20
10 Variable Slot (Slow, Free): Real Cost 20
10 Variable Slot (Slow, Free): Real Cost 20
Total Cost: 75
The Elementalist must spend hours of preparation to memorize three major spells, but can do all sorts of minor 'cantrips' (Active Cost 25 with the standard limitations) without this preparation. Two major slots or any less-than-full-power combination totalling 40 real points can be active at the same time. Instant spells take a full phase to cast, spells with duration take 1 turn to cast.
The 'cantrip' slot can be used to cast just as powerful spells as the other slots (50 active points) if extra limitations are taken on the power, e.g. Concentration (-½), Focus Spell Book (-1) and additional Extra Time worth -1 (~ 1 minute for instant spells, 5 hours for spells with duration).

________________
Klaus Æ. Mogensen

[Tonio]

After 17 pages of posts, my head is mush and I don't think anyone "proved" to me that the frameworks are broken.

If anything I would say rename Multipowers to Elemental Controls. Name Elemental controls Unitified Pools and keep VPPs as they are.

And could it be people are too concerned with mechanics and not concepts?

Just my two cents.
-Bluefire

One thing, at least, that's moderately "broken" with Power Frameworks is how they interact, or rather, how they don't. A "Fire Guy" could logically have a damage shield, a force field, fire-based flight, and a fire blast, which he can focus to make an armor piercing RKA, or spread out a bit to make a regular EB. The RKA/EB seems a good candidate for a MP, especially if you add in options to make Explosion, Reduced END, etc. But the rest of the powers would make a good EC. So you end up with a couple of powers in an EC, and a couple of powers in an MP, completely disconnected. The attack powers aren't getting the EC discount, they're not getting drained with the rest of the EC. Logically, the MP and EC should be one construct, since they describe the same concept. A unified Framework would acheive this.

[Mini-Nukette]

Here's a more detailed example of building a Versatile Power, and the use of Adjustable, from my previous posts take on a combined Framework. (Note that I've refined some of the prior mechanics, from Active Points to Real Cost, and added an example later on here of how to combine two of the Power Pool options.)

John wants his new hero character, Brightlancer, to have a Power which can be used in a number of different ways. The Power Pool's Versatile Power option is designed for this purpose, so first of all he works out the Real Cost cost of the Powers he wants to put together, applying Advantages and Limitations normally, into a Power Pool.

Power Pool (Initial Cost = ?, Power Reserve = ? / ?)
1) Versatile Power: Lightgivers Hands, OIF (Mystical Lightprism Amulet)
a) Incandescent Burst: Energy Blast 6d6 (Armor Piercing +½, Autofire +½, half END +¼, OIF -½)
Real Cost: 45
a) Lightbeam: Energy Blast 6d6 (Armor Piercing +½, AoE: Line +1, half END +¼, No Range -½, OIF -½)
Real Cost: 41
b) Sunstrike: Energy Blast 6d6 (Armor Piercing +½, Explosion +½, Indirect +¼, half END +¼, OIF -½)
Real Cost: 49
c) Blinding Flare: Flash 6d6 (AoE: Cone +1, half END +¼, No Range -½, OIF -½)
Real Cost: 34

John has taken a Focus limitation, which must be the same Focus for each of the Versatile Power's different uses.

As each Versatile Power can have a maximum Real Cost up to the Initial cost of the Power Pool times 1½, he notes that that must be at least 33 Character Points worth (33 x 1½ = 49.5, the highest Real Cost being the Sunstrike which has a Real Cost of 49), and it would therefore have a Power Reserve of at least 330, ten times that.

Power Pool (Initial Cost = 33 CP, Power Reserve = ? / 330)
1) Versatile Power: Lightgivers Hands, OIF (Mystical Lightprism Amulet)
a) Incandescent Burst: Energy Blast 6d6 (Armor Piercing +½, Autofire +½, half END +¼, OIF -½)
Real Cost: 45
a) Lightbeam: Energy Blast 6d6 (Armor Piercing +½, AoE: Line +1, half END +¼, No Range -½, OIF -½)
Real Cost: 41
b) Sunstrike: Energy Blast 6d6 (Armor Piercing +½, Explosion +½, Indirect +¼, half END +¼, OIF -½)
Real Cost: 49
c) Blinding Flare: Flash 6d6 (AoE: Cone +1, half END +¼, No Range -½, OIF -½)
Real Cost: 34

Next, he calculates the cost for each of the Powers. Powers in a Versatile Power group cost one third of their usual Real Cost, and take up twice their Real Cost from the Power Pool's Power Reserve.

Power Pool (Initial Cost = 33 CP, Power Reserve = ? / 330)
1) Versatile Power: Lightgivers Hands, OIF (Mystical Lightprism Amulet)
a) Incandescent Burst: Energy Blast 6d6 (Armor Piercing +½, Autofire +½, half END +¼, OIF -½)
Real Cost: 45, Actual Cost: 45/3 = 15, Power Reserve: 45 x2 = 90
a) Lightbeam: Energy Blast 6d6 (Armor Piercing +½, AoE: Line +1, half END +¼, No Range -½, OIF -½)
Real Cost: 41, Actual Cost: 41/3 = 14, Power Reserve: 41 x 2 = 82
b) Sunstrike: Energy Blast 6d6 (Armor Piercing +½, Explosion +½, Indirect +¼, half END +¼, OIF -½)
Real Cost: 49, Actual Cost: 49/3 = 16, Power Reserve: 49 x2 = 98
c) Blinding Flare: Flash 6d6 (AoE: Cone +1, half END +¼, No Range -½, OIF -½)
Real Cost: 34, Actual Cost: 34/3 = 11, Power Reserve: 34 x2 = 68

The four Powers in Lightgivers Hands total 338 Power Reserve in cost. So the Power Pool the Lightgivers Hands is in needs to have at least 338 Power Reserve points, and the Power Pool is 8 short. He could reduce the Real Cost of one of the Powers to fit, or increase the Intial Cost of the Power Pool to increase its Power Reserve. He chooses the latter.

Power Pool (Initial Cost = 35 CP, Power Reserve = 338 / 350)
1) Versatile Power: Lightgivers Hands, OIF (Mystical Lightprism Amulet)
a) Incandescent Burst: Energy Blast 6d6 (Armor Piercing +½, Autofire +½, half END +¼, OIF -½)
Real Cost: 45, Actual Cost: 15, Power Reserve: 90
a) Lightbeam: Energy Blast 6d6 (Armor Piercing +½, AoE: Line +1, half END +¼, No Range -½, OIF -½)
Real Cost: 41, Actual Cost: 14, Power Reserve: 82
b) Sunstrike: Energy Blast 6d6 (Armor Piercing +½, Explosion +½, Indirect +¼, half END +¼, OIF -½)
Real Cost: 49, Actual Cost: 16, Power Reserve: 98
c) Blinding Flare: Flash 6d6 (AoE: Cone +1, half END +¼, No Range -½, OIF -½)
Real Cost: 34, Actual Cost: 11, Power Reserve: 68

John therefore has spent 91 Character Points on his characters versatile Lightgiver Hands. Although he can only use one of those Powers at any time, he has saved 78 Character Points (from 169 CP normal cost).

He decides that he'd like Brightlancer to be able to change the strength of the first three Powers in Lightgiver Hands when his character uses one of them. This requires those Powers to be Adjustable.

An Adjustable Power can be up to x1½ the Power Pools value, same as Versatile Powers, so no change needed there.

However, an Adjustable Power has an Actual Cost equal to the its Real Cost in a Power Pool, and a Power Reserve Cost is its Real Cost x1½. For the Actual Cost, he needs to average it between Versatile and Adjustable. For Power Reserve, both multipliers have to be applied.

Power Pool (Initial Cost = 35 CP, Power Reserve = ? / 350)
1) Versatile Power: Lightgivers Hands, OIF (Mystical Lightprism Amulet)
a) Incandescent Burst: Energy Blast 6d6 (Armor Piercing +½, Autofire +½, half END +¼, OIF -½), Adjustable
Real Cost: 45, Actual Cost: (15+45)/2 = 30, Power Reserve: 45 x2 x1½ = 135
a) Lightbeam: Energy Blast 6d6 (Armor Piercing +½, AoE: Line +1, half END +¼, No Range -½, OIF -½), Adjustable
Real Cost: 41, Actual Cost: (14+41)/2 = 27, Power Reserve: 41 x2 x1½ = 123
b) Sunstrike: Energy Blast 6d6 (Armor Piercing +½, Explosion +½, Indirect +¼, half END +¼, OIF -½), Adjustable
Real Cost: 49, Actual Cost: (16+49)/2 = 32, Power Reserve: 49 x2 x1½ = 147
c) Blinding Flare: Flash 6d6 (AoE: Cone +1, half END +¼, No Range -½, OIF -½)
Real Cost: 34, Actual Cost: 11, Power Reserve: 68

The Power Reserve used has increased to 473, so again John needs to raise the Power Pool's Power Reserve to cover that. He spends another 15 CP on the Power Pool's Initial Cost.

Power Pool (Initial Cost = 50 CP, Power Reserve = 473 / 500)
1) Versatile Power: Lightgivers Hands, OIF (Mystical Lightprism Amulet)
a) Incandescent Burst: Energy Blast 6d6 (Armor Piercing +½, Autofire +½, half END +¼, OIF -½), Adjustable
Real Cost: 45, Actual Cost: 30, Power Reserve: 135
a) Lightbeam: Energy Blast 6d6 (Armor Piercing +½, AoE: Line +1, half END +¼, No Range -½, OIF -½), Adjustable
Real Cost: 41, Actual Cost: 27, Power Reserve: 123
b) Sunstrike: Energy Blast 6d6 (Armor Piercing +½, Explosion +½, Indirect +¼, half END +¼, OIF -½), Adjustable
Real Cost: 49, Actual Cost: 32, Power Reserve: 147
c) Blinding Flare: Flash 6d6 (AoE: Cone +1, half END +¼, No Range -½, OIF -½)
Real Cost: 34, Actual Cost: 11, Power Reserve: 68

A total of 150 CP for Brightlancer's versatile Lightgiver's Hands Power, with the three damaging attacks being variable in strength. John decides finally to add a Flight Power to Brightlancer's Amulet, as a Normal Power. The Actual Cost of a Normal Power is three quarters its Real Cost, and its Power Reserve cost is equal to the Real Cost.

Power Pool (Initial Cost = 50 CP, Power Reserve = 482 / 500)
1) Versatile Power: Lightgivers Hands, OIF (Mystical Lightprism Amulet)
a) Incandescent Burst: Energy Blast 6d6 (Armor Piercing +½, Autofire +½, half END +¼, OIF -½)
Real Cost: 45, Actual Cost: 30, Power Reserve: 135
a) Lightbeam: Energy Blast 6d6 (Armor Piercing +½, AoE: Line +1, half END +¼, No Range -½, OIF -½)
Real Cost: 41, Actual Cost: 27, Power Reserve: 123
b) Sunstrike: Energy Blast 6d6 (Armor Piercing +½, Explosion +½, Indirect +¼, half END +¼, OIF -½)
Real Cost: 49, Actual Cost: 32, Power Reserve: 147
c) Blinding Flare: Flash 6d6 (AoE: Cone +1, half END +¼, No Range -½, OIF -½)
Real Cost: 34, Actual Cost: 11, Power Reserve: 68
2) Flight 10" (0 END +½, Only in Daylight -¼, OIF -½)
Real Cost: 9, Actual Cost 9 x ¾ = 7, Power Reserve: 9

[Mini-Nukette]

A second short example, including an Adaptable Powerset.

Susan wants her new heroine character to be able to turn into animals, and designs a Power Pool with that in mind.

Power Pool: Animal Shapeshifting (Initial Cost: ?, Power Reserve ?/?)
1) Multiform - Animal Shapeshifting (Natural Earth Animals, mammal/reptile/amphibian/marsupial)
(0 END +½, Limited to Natural Earth Animals Only -¼)
Real Cost: 48, Actual Cost: 48 x¾ = 36, Power Reserve: 48

2) Versatile Power: Size Changing, Linked: Animal Shapeshifting
a) Growth, 3 ranks, (half END +¼, Linked: Animal Shapeshifting -½), Adjustable
Real Cost: 25, Actual Cost: ((25/3) + 25)/2 = 17, Power Reserve: 25 x1½ x2 = 75
b) Shrink, 5 ranks, (half END +¼, Linked: Animal Shapeshifting -½), Adjustable
Real Cost: 42, Actual Cost: ((42/3) + 42)/2 = 28, Power Reserve: 42 x1½ x2 = 126

3) Adaptable Powerset: Natural Animal Ability Mimicry, up to 50 Real Cost total in up to 3 Powers
(Up to 3 Enhanced Senses and Travel Powers, 0 END: +½, Linked: Animal Shapeshifting -½)
Real Cost: 50, Actual Cost: 50, Power Reserve: 50 x (1 +½ per Power) = 125
a)
b)
c)

The total Power Reserve comes to 374, so the Power Pool's Initial Cost must be at least 38 on that basis. She checks that all the Powers also are within their maximum real cost for 34 - Multiform, a Normal Power, can be up to 38 x 1½, as can each Power in the Versatile Power group, and the Adaptable Powerset can be up to twice 38.

None of them break that limit, so she doesn't need to increase the Power Pool Initial cost beyond 38 to cover any of those.

Power Pool: Animal Shapeshifting (Initial Cost: 38, Power Reserve 374/380)
1) Multiform - Animal Shapeshifting (Natural Earth Animals, mammal/reptile/amphibian/marsupial)
(0 END +½, Limited to Natural Earth Animals Only -¼)
Real Cost: 48, Actual Cost: 36, Power Reserve: 48

2) Versatile Power: Size Changing, Linked: Animal Shapeshifting
a) Growth, 3 ranks, (half END +¼, Linked: Animal Shapeshifting -½), Adjustable
Real Cost: 25, Actual Cost: 17, Power Reserve: 75
b) Shrink, 5 ranks, (half END +¼, Linked: Animal Shapeshifting -½), Adjustable
Real Cost: 42, Actual Cost: 28, Power Reserve: 126

3) Adaptable Powerset: Natural Animal Ability Mimicry, up to 50 Real Cost total in up to 3 Powers
(Up to 3 Enhanced Senses and Travel Powers, 0 END +½, Linked: Animal Shapeshifting -½)
Real Cost: 50, Actual Cost: 50, Power Reserve: 125
a)
b)
c)

Susan's Animal Shapeshifting Power Pool for her character costs a total of 169 Character Points.

[Vondy]

Klaus - thanks. That's very clear and concise considering how versatile it is.

Mini-Nukette: I appreciate the examples. I'll print them out and take a look. I might not have anything to say for a few days, however. Things are hectic and we have a holiday coming up on thursday.

[Opal]

If one of the Powers in the OmniPool is Drained or Suppressed, the other Powers are likewise affected (they are, after all, aspects of the same power)It might be good to reduce the Active Limit, rather than draining 'all the powers.' It's simple, and it gives low-Apt powers some leeway before disapearing.


Variable Slot: Variable Slot: Cost depends on the combination of Fast, Slow, Free, and Limited:



A Fast, Free Slot costs 3 character points for every 2 points of Real Cost.
A Fast, Limited Slot costs 1 character point for every 1 point of Real Cost.
A Slow, Free Slot costs 1 character point for every 2 points of Real Cost.
A Slow, Limited Slot costs 1 character point for every 3 points of Real Cost.

OK, I can see how you can do a cosmic pool with this. I don't quite understand why we should go for categories and different base costs, rather than just limitations, though. Or Advantages and Limitations just like the existing VPP?

[Blue]

The main reason I didn't like Power Frameworks (particularly Multipower) was the ability of one or more players with intense knowledge of them to build something that would outshine every other character on the team who was of the same points.

Sounds like I'm penalizing players for being smart. Well, I am, sorta. I just wanted everyone to be competitive and for no one to have a power for every situation; that's what teammates are for.

I personally have fun with Power Frameworks, but they're not so fun to GM. So I guess what I'm saying is that I'm fine if Power Frameworks go the way of the Dodo and "Package Deals". Perhaps move it to "The HERO SYSTEM BOOK OF POWERGAMING MINUTIAE AND OPTIONAL RULES".

If you build them, Powergamers will come!

[Vondy]

OK, I can see how you can do a cosmic pool with this. I don't quite understand why we should go for categories and different base costs, rather than just limitations, though. Or Advantages and Limitations just like the existing VPP?

This makes for quicker construction and makes for a very nice shorthand on the character sheet, but advantages and limitations are the orthodox way to do it.

[Opal]

I assume you can still take limitations on a variable slot that must be taken on any power(s) in that slot, right?

How does that work out when you're also aplying a limitation about changing, it like RSR to do the classic gadget pool?

Like, say you have your Fast/Free variable slot, with RSR (to change), and OAF (all powers are focused).

Currently, on a 50 point pool, that costs 12 points (25 for the control cost, -1 limitation), the same as a Slow/Free variable omni slot. In the omni power it costs 30 (75/2.5). Or is changing a 'slow' omni doable with a skill check, anyway?

[Vondy]

I assume you can still take limitations on a variable slot that must be taken on any power(s) in that slot, right?

How does that work out when you're also aplying a limitation about changing, it like RSR to do the classic gadget pool?

Like, say you have your Fast/Free variable slot, with RSR (to change), and OAF (all powers are focused).

Currently, on a 50 point pool, that costs 12 points (25 for the control cost, -1 limitation), the same as a Slow/Free variable omni slot. In the omni power it costs 30 (75/2.5). Or is changing a 'slow' omni doable with a skill check, anyway?


Modifiers that affect the pool are applied to the active limit.
Modifiers that affect individual powers/slots are applied to the power/slot.
The construct assumes no skill roll is needed thats a lim you can tack on.
The fast-slow element indicates the time-frame involved for changing powers.
At present the slow slot does not allow you to change during the scene.
You would need a fast slot to change during the scene.
But you could apply a lim to the active limit to set an in-scene time requirement for a fast slot (a "not so fast" slot)
.

Or, at least, that's how I understand it.

[schir1964]

I've copied your updated OmniPool to the thread in the Rules section. Just so you know.

- Christopher Mullins

[CTaylor]

I still see way too much complexity here. It needs to be very, very pared down and simplified, you're building a rule that would take five pages to explain.

[PhilFleischmann]

One thing, at least, that's moderately "broken" with Power Frameworks is how they interact, or rather, how they don't. A "Fire Guy" could logically have a damage shield, a force field, fire-based flight, and a fire blast, which he can focus to make an armor piercing RKA, or spread out a bit to make a regular EB. The RKA/EB seems a good candidate for a MP, especially if you add in options to make Explosion, Reduced END, etc. But the rest of the powers would make a good EC. So you end up with a couple of powers in an EC, and a couple of powers in an MP, completely disconnected. The attack powers aren't getting the EC discount, they're not getting drained with the rest of the EC. Logically, the MP and EC should be one construct, since they describe the same concept. A unified Framework would acheive this.
It could also be achieved with a "Draining/Dispelling/Suppressing X also Drains/Dispels/Suppresses This Power" Limitation. I'm starting to think that EC's should be eliminated in favor of this type of limitation.

[Klaus Mogensen]

It might be good to reduce the Active Limit, rather than draining 'all the powers.' It's simple, and it gives low-Apt powers some leeway before disapearing.
Excellent idea!

________________
Klaus Æ. Mogensen

[Klaus Mogensen]

I assume you can still take limitations on a variable slot that must be taken on any power(s) in that slot, right?
Since Slot Cost is based on Real Cost, limitations on Powers in a slot automatically reduce the Slot Cost.

How does that work out when you're also aplying a limitation about changing, it like RSR to do the classic gadget pool?
Like, say you have your Fast/Free variable slot, with RSR (to change), and OAF (all powers are focused).
Currently, on a 50 point pool, that costs 12 points (25 for the control cost, -1 limitation), the same as a Slow/Free variable omni slot. In the omni power it costs 30 (75/2.5).
Or is changing a 'slow' omni doable with a skill check, anyway?
In the OmniPool, the VPP rules for changing Powers are reduced to the Fast/Slow choice. Personally, I've never liked the RSR option, but if you want to apply it as a limitation to a Fast Slot, go ahead. The limitation shouldn't be more than -1/4, since it is less limiting than RSR every time the power is used (-½).

OAF is applied directly to the Powers in the slot, reducing the Real Cost and hence the Slot Cost. If all Powers in the OmniPool require OAF, you can also tale the OAF limitation on the Active Limit cost.

Anyway, the closest OmniPool to your VPP example is this:

12 Active Limit 50; limitation OAF (-1)
25 Real Limit 50
25 Slow, Free Variable Slot (Real Cost 50)
62 Total Cost

Which comes to the same cost as your VPP, but is more restrictive. OTOH, there are OmniPool examples that are less restrictive than a similar VPP. Win some, lose some.

________________
Klaus Æ. Mogensen

[Opal]

In the OmniPool, the VPP rules for changing Powers are reduced to the Fast/Slow choice. Personally, I've never liked the RSR option, but if you want to apply it as a limitation to a Fast Slot, go ahead. The limitation shouldn't be more than -1/4, since it is less limiting than RSR every time the power is used (-½).Well, the standard VPP takes a little time (phase or half-phase, IIRC) as well as the skill roll to change, but you could take a lim for that, too, I suppose.


Anyway, the closest OmniPool to your VPP example is this:

12 Active Limit 50; limitation OAF (-1)
25 Real Limit 50
25 Slow, Free Variable Slot (Real Cost 50)
62 Total Cost

Which comes to the same cost as your VPP, but is more restrictive. OTOH, there are OmniPool examples that are less restrictive than a similar VPP. Win some, lose some.
Wouldn't the OAF lim also go on the slot, making it cheaper than a regular VPP? For that matter, for an Omni that's only has a Variable slot, nothing else, wouldn't any limitation on the slot also go on the Active Limit?

Hmm...

[Klaus Mogensen]

I still see way too much complexity here. It needs to be very, very pared down and simplified, you're building a rule that would take five pages to explain.

I am considering ways to do that. However, any attempt at simplification will also mean reduced flexibility and/or costs that are less similar to the original three frameworks.

Some things I've considered:

Disallow limitations on the Active Limit Cost. This will make OmniPools with lots of limitations more expensive, but not inordinately so.
Do away with the Free variant of the Variable Slot. The choice of Powers is already restricted by the overall concept of the OmniPool.
Do away with the Fixed Slots. You don't save all that many points compared to Scaleable Slots, anyway.


A reduced OmniPool with these simplifications would only have three kinds of slots: A Normal Slot that is always the same Power (or combination of Powers), a Slow Variable Slot that only can be changed between scenes, and a Fast Variable Slot that can be changed as a 0-phase action.

A write-up of this reduced framework, which might be called UniPool, would look like this:

UNIPOOL
A UniPool allows several conceptually linked Powers to be collected in a single framework. The character gets a point break compared to buying the Powers seperately, at the cost of some freedom:

All the Powers in a UniPool must belong to the same overarching concept. The Powers can be considered different aspects of the same power, e.g. a telekinetic force or an elemental power. If a Power doesn't fit into the overarching concept, it doesn't belong in the UniPool. The GM is the final arbitrator in how broad an UniPool concept can be.
If a Power in the UniPool is Drained or Suppressed, this affects all the Powers in the UniPool
Depending on how the UniPool is bought, it may not be possible to use all the Powers in the UniPool at the same time.

UniPool Structure
An UniPool consists of a number of Powers and two Limits.

Active Limit: No Power in the UniPool can have an Active Cost greater than the Active Limit. Linked Powers that go off together count as one Power for this purpose. Drain and Suppression attacks against a Power in the UniPool affect the Active Limit rather than just the Power itself.
Real Limit: The total Real Cost of Powers in the UniPool that are active at one time cannot exceed the Real Limit. If you e.g. want two Powers of Real Cost 60 and 30 to be active at the same time, the Real Limit should be at least 90.
Powers: Powers are bought in Power Slots. A Power Slot can consist of one or more Powers. There are three different types of Power Slots: A Normal Slot, a Changeable Slot and a Variable Slot.

Power Slots
The cost of a Slot is based on the Real Cost of the Power or combination of Powers in the Slot. If a Power in a Slot isn't used at full power, only the portion that is used counts towards the Real Limit

Normal Slot: A Normal Slot always consists of the same Power or combination of Powers. If you want a different Power, you have to change to a different Slot with that Power in it.
Changeable Slot: A Changable Slot can be a different Power or combination of Powers in every scene. Changing the Power(s) in a Changeable Slot usually requires several hours of tinkering or meditation and most likely access to a workshop and/or a collection of reference manuals (e.g. magic tomes). The exact circumstances depend on the overarching concept of the UniPool.
Variable Slot: A Variable Slot can be a different Power or combination of Powers every time it is used. Changing a Variable Slot can be either conscious or automatic (not both). If conscious, you can change the Power(s) as a 0-phase action. If automatic, the Power(s) change to fit the circumstances without conscious character control (and will change even if the character is unconscious). This is e.g. suitable for an adaptive power that changes to fit a certain environment or the last attack the character was hit by.

UniPool Cost
Active Limit: Cost = 1 point per 2 points of maximum Active Cost.
Real Limit: Cost = 1 point per 2 points of maximum active Real Cost.
Normal Slot: Cost = 1 point per 5 points of Real Cost of the Power(s) in the Normal Slot.
Changeable Slot: Cost = 1 point per 3 points of Real Cost of Power(s) in the Changeable Slot.
Variable Slot: Cost = 1 point per 1 point of Real Cost of Power(s) in the Variable Slot.

__________________________________________________

Example: Shape-Change UniPool
23 Active Limit 46
45 Real Limit 90
09 Normal Slot: Shape Shift All Shapes, 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
09 Normal Slot: Growth rank 6, 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
09 Normal Slot:Shrinking rank 3, 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
09 Normal Slot: Stretching 6", 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
30 Variable Slot: Any Movement Power that fits shape. Real Cost 30
Total Cost: 134

Example: Elemental Magic UniPool
25 Active Limit 50
21 Real Limit 42
10 Variable Slot: Real Cost 10
07 Changeable Slot: Real Cost 21
07 Changeable Slot: Real Cost 21
07 Changeable Slot: Real Cost 21
Total Cost: 77
The Elementalist must spend hours of preparation to memorize three major spells, but can do all sorts of minor 'cantrips' (Active Cost 25 with the standard limitations) without this preparation. Two major slots or any less-than-full-power combination totalling 42 real points can be active at the same time. Instant spells take a full phase to cast, spells with duration take 1 turn to cast.
The 'cantrip' slot can be used to cast just as powerful spells as the other slots (50 active points) if extra limitations are taken on the power, e.g. Concentration (-½), Focus Spell Book (-1) and additional Extra Time worth -1 (~ 1 minute for instant spells, 5 hours for spells with duration).

The costs are very similar to the similar OmniPools (134 vs. 130, 77 vs. 75). The functionalities are somewhat different, but not inordinately so. If people can live with the loss of the Fixed Slot and the merging of the Free/Limited variables, I think this could be the way to go.

________________
Klaus Æ. Mogensen

[Klaus Mogensen]

Wouldn't the OAF lim also go on the slot, making it cheaper than a regular VPP? For that matter, for an Omni that's only has a Variable slot, nothing else, wouldn't any limitation on the slot also go on the Active Limit?
The OAF lim goes on the Powers in the Slot, not the Slot itself. However, that comes to the same thing, since the Slot Cost is based on the Real Cost, which is affected by limitations. A -1 lim means half Real Cost means half Slot Cost.

A limitation would only go on the Active Cost if it always affected the Powers in the Variable Slot; i.e., not if it was a new limitation every time.

Anyway, it is this kind of brain hurt that made me drop limitations on the Active Limit in the simpler UniPool framework. :)

________________
Klaus Æ. Mogensen

[Tonio]

It could also be achieved with a "Draining/Dispelling/Suppressing X also Drains/Dispels/Suppresses This Power" Limitation. I'm starting to think that EC's should be eliminated in favor of this type of limitation.

That wouldn't bother me too much, to be honest. I'd always thought ECs gave way too much of a discount for a very rarely ocurring limitation.

[rreay]

I was skeptical of the combining the frameworks at first but I'm starting to really like the Omnipool.

However... I think the addition of fast, slow, and free is adding complexity that just doesn't need to be there. It's going to make it harder to explain and harder to track in play. I would prefer if this went back to the one conceptual power per slot it had earlier. [By conceptual power I mean allow multiple powers like a bright light blast (EB + flash) that are effectively one power.]

I really prefer the method Klaus used back in #205 of this thread (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1562687&postcount=205). Since the Variable Slots could change every time you activated them if you want more than one at once you don't need to have multiple slots at the full power level. I can get up to any possible combination of 6 powers in a 60 point OmniPool equivalent to 60 point a Cosmic VPP for 208 pts vs 150. It's a relatively small cost difference, smaller than the change in aid from 4th to 5th.

30 Omni Active 60
30 Omni Real 60
60 Variable Slot 60
30 Variable Slot 30
20 Variable Slot 20
15 Variable Slot 15
13 Variable Slot 13
10 Variable Slot 10

[CTaylor]

If we were to eliminate Elemental Controls I wouldn't be too upset, they always seemed arbitrary to me. Multipower and Power Pool makes more sense, but Elemental Controls seemed like superhero welfare. Here's extra points for convincing the GM! The limitation idea appeals to me a great deal more than EC.

[rreay]

It might be good to reduce the Active Limit, rather than draining 'all the powers.' It's simple, and it gives low-Apt powers some leeway before disapearing.


Hmmm. If the pool has more real than active draining the Active Limit reduces the upper power level of each power but still leaves the character able to use the full real points available. I'm not sure that's the effect you want.

Also, Real Points will always be equal or greater than the active points draining only the active points hurts/ totally removes Omnipools based on the same number of active points equally fast, even if one cost more because of higher real points.

This would also drain the pool twice as fast as an equivalent multipower because the active points are bought differently.

Probably the best option is to drain active and real in proportion. Long analysis follows.

In a simplified example of a pool with real points twice the active...
60 Active/120 Real
60 Flight
60 EB
60 FF

Before draining you could use 2 of the 3 powers at full strength (0/60/60) or all 3 at 2/3s power (40/40/40) or the EB at full and the the others at half (30/60/30)

If this pool is drained 20 Active then the character can no longer use any power at full strength, but can still use all 3 at 2/3s (40/40/40). The max of all (big) powers is reduced but you can effectively afford to turn on more powers. It doesn't let the pool do anything it couldn't do before. The max of any power is reduced, but the total output of the pool is the same. This doesn't limit the total output until the active points are reduced so far that the real points can't be allocated to the slots.

If you drained real points, when the active and real points are the same the power levels are reduced and the effect is just like draining the active points would do.

When the real points are higher and the pool is drained you can still use some powers at max power, but the number of powers you can use effectively is reduced. For the same 20 pt drain you get a slightly different effect. 2 powers still strong (0/50/50) or one at the old max and one reduced (0/60/40) or all slightly reduced (33/33/33). Total output of the pool is reduced while individual powers could be as strong. I kinda like this option.

Another option is draining the active and real points in proportion. In this case the 20 point drain would reduce our example pool to 53/107 and reduce both the max of any power and the total pool output.

[Opal]

Hmmm. If the pool has more real than active draining the Active Limit reduces the upper power level of each power but still leaves the character able to use the full real points available. I'm not sure that's the effect you want.I don't have a big problem with it. All the character's abilities are becoming less powerful, but, he can use a few of them at a time - like he probably could if he chose to use them all at low power.

Draining real points wouldn't work, since real points can be quite low. For instance, in an Omnipower along the lines of a limitted multipower, say an OAF, 11- activation 'cosmic' rod, it might look like:

30 Multipower 90 Apts, all: OAF, 11-
3 u 12d EB, 0 END
3 u 15/15 FF 0 END
6 m 30" flight 0 END

as an Omni, it'd look like:

15 Active Limit 90, all: OAF, 11-
15 Real Limit 30
3 fixed slot: 12d EB, 0 END
3 fixed slot: 15/15 FF 0 END
6 multi slot: 30" flight 0 END

Say you drain the flight for 45 Apts. It's now 15" of flight. If you also drain the other powers, the EB is 6d, and the FF is /gone/. But, you can now use the flight and the EB at the same time, because thier real costs have been reduced, as well.

If you drain the Apt limit, the EB is still 12d, but you can only use 6d of it (15 Rpt) - and, as a fixed slot, it still takes up all 30rpts. But, you can still use all 15/15 FF. And, you could use your remaining flight, at the same time (just like you normally could), since it's not a fixed slot, and only takes up the Apts you're using.

Hmm both are a little wierd.

[Klaus Mogensen]

I was skeptical of the combining the frameworks at first but I'm starting to really like the Omnipool.

However... I think the addition of fast, slow, and free is adding complexity that just doesn't need to be there. It's going to make it harder to explain and harder to track in play. I would prefer if this went back to the one conceptual power per slot it had earlier.
Well, what do you think about the simpler UniPool I presented in Post #267 (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1566587&postcount=267)?

I suppose this could be simplified even further by going back to just having a single Power per slot. However, there was some resistance to that by people who otherwise liked the general idea.

________________
Klaus Æ. Mogensen

[Opal]

One power per slot kills the VPP feel, and makes variable (? VPP-like) slots too expensive for what they do.

[rreay]

[QUOTE=Klaus Mogensen;1567458]Well, what do you think about the simpler UniPool[/URL]?

Without trying to build and analyze a character I think this Unipool would work just fine and it's a lot easier to explain than the Omnis.

My personal preference would be to change a couple of things.

For historical reason I still like the distinction between Fixed Slots and Variable Slots. I think I'd be happy with a standardized limitation value for Power can only be used at full power. Just like an old school fixed slot, you can use it at less than max strength, but you have to allocate the full cost to get it to run at all. That's not much of a limitation on powers outside a pool, but inside it can be. It limits your options and make you makes you make tactical decisions when allocating points. Maybe -1/2.

As for the VPP, Your UniPool Variable slot is a bit cheaper than a Cosmic VPP and I would prefer Cosmic VPPs more expensive... The one game I ran (a long time ago now) I let a character with a Cosmic VPP in and he broke the game, some I'm a little gun shy around VPPs. That's just me.

I really don't have a problem with limiting a slot to one conceptual power at a time. My quick trial above where I went to 6 powers at a time show's that it's not wasn't that much more expensive than the existing cosmic VPPs. Again, just me.

[rreay]

Draining real points wouldn't work

Whoops, I screwed up the terminology. I meant Real Limit.

In preference order I suggest drains directed at a Omni/UniPool drain

Real Limit and Active Limit in proportion - This is closest the same as draining the pool of a multipower.
Real Limit - Total pool output goes down, but powers can still be used at max strength. This drains twice as fas as draining multipower, so drains should probably effect the pool only at half strength.
Active Limit - Total pool output stay that same until you run out of powers to turn on but no powers can be used at full strength. This drains twice as fas as draining multipower, so drains should probably effect the pool only at half strength.

[CTaylor]

One power per slot kills the VPP feel, and makes variable (? VPP-like) slots too expensive for what they do.

I agree, a variable slot should be "anything at once" not "any one power at once." If you want this system to replace power pools, you need a slot that is a power pool, not a slot that mimics part of one, sort of.

[Opal]

This drains twice as fas as draining multipower, so drains should probably effect the pool only at half strength.
I'd think it would have to work that way, yes. Drains work on Apts, not real, and both limits cost 1:2. The 2 seems like the apts, to me. Not sure if that's what's intended...

[Vondy]

I'd think it would have to work that way, yes. Drains work on Apts, not real, and both limits cost 1:2. The 2 seems like the apts, to me. Not sure if that's what's intended...

It may be a question of interpretation.

The cost of the active limit is 1:2, but the active limit is still the available active points for the powers.

I would assume the drain works against the active limit, not the cost of the active limit.

[rreay]

I would assume the drain works against the active limit, not the cost of the active limit.

Whoops! Good point.

[PhilFleischmann]

A thought on Multipower slots:

Are Variable slots ("multis" at 1/5) too expensive compared to Fixed slots ("ultras" at 1/10)? Are they really worth twice as much? If so, why do so few characters have them? Should the cost be changed? To, say 2/15 of the slot's points?

[Opal]

You used to see a lot of multi slots when points were tighter, and campaign limits harder to hit.

For instance, if you couldn't afford a 12d EB and a 30/30 FF and 30" of flight, but could afford an 8d EB, 15/15 FF, and 13" of flight, you could, instead, get a Multipower with the 12d EB, 30/30 FF, and 30" of flight. And, you could still decide to throw an 8d EB while keeping up a 10/10 FF, or keep up a 15/15 FF while flying 15" or whatever.

Today, with 350 point characters, there's little need for such constructs. You can buy a classic campaign-max 60 Atp attack, defense, and movement power, straight up, and still have 170 points left over.

[Klaus Mogensen]

A thought on Multipower slots:

Are Variable slots ("multis" at 1/5) too expensive compared to Fixed slots ("ultras" at 1/10)? Are they really worth twice as much? If so, why do so few characters have them? Should the cost be changed? To, say 2/15 of the slot's points?

Or perhaps the "ultra" slots are too cheap?

In any case, I think the point save on a Fixed slot compared to a "scaleable" slot is so small (6 points for a 60-point power) that the game doesn't lose much through getting rid of them. It is not a big deal to me either way - I can handle complex constructs. However, if you evaluate the gain in simplicity in getting rid of Fixed slots versus the gain of flexibility in retaining them, I think simplicity wins.

Not that simplicity is a goal in itself. But I think that for each rule, we (or Steve) should consider if the added flexibility or built-in control is worth the added complexity of having the rule. There's no denying that each edition of Hero has been more complex than the previous one (even if select elements have been streamlined). I think that by now, there may be some need to scale back on a little bit of that complexity. We don't want to go the Rolemaster way.

________________
Klaus Æ. Mogensen

[SteveZilla]

If we were to eliminate Elemental Controls I wouldn't be too upset, they always seemed arbitrary to me. Multipower and Power Pool makes more sense, but Elemental Controls seemed like superhero welfare. Here's extra points for convincing the GM! The limitation idea appeals to me a great deal more than EC.

With Limitations you still have to convince the GM. All that has happened is a change of the mechanics that gives a cost reduction.

[James Gillen]

Or perhaps the "ultra" slots are too cheap?

In any case, I think the point save on a Fixed slot compared to a "scaleable" slot is so small (6 points for a 60-point power) that the game doesn't lose much through getting rid of them. It is not a big deal to me either way - I can handle complex constructs. However, if you evaluate the gain in simplicity in getting rid of Fixed slots versus the gain of flexibility in retaining them, I think simplicity wins.

Not that simplicity is a goal in itself. But I think that for each rule, we (or Steve) should consider if the added flexibility or built-in control is worth the added complexity of having the rule. There's no denying that each edition of Hero has been more complex than the previous one (even if select elements have been streamlined). I think that by now, there may be some need to scale back on a little bit of that complexity. We don't want to go the Rolemaster way.

________________
Klaus Æ. Mogensen


HERO LAW!!!!

Hey, I wouldn't mind seeing some of those critical hit tables in HERO...

JG

[Vondy]

You used to see a lot of multi slots when points were tighter, and campaign limits harder to hit.

For instance, if you couldn't afford a 12d EB and a 30/30 FF and 30" of flight, but could afford an 8d EB, 15/15 FF, and 13" of flight, you could, instead, get a Multipower with the 12d EB, 30/30 FF, and 30" of flight. And, you could still decide to throw an 8d EB while keeping up a 10/10 FF, or keep up a 15/15 FF while flying 15" or whatever.

Today, with 350 point characters, there's little need for such constructs. You can buy a classic campaign-max 60 Atp attack, defense, and movement power, straight up, and still have 170 points left over.

This is superheoric centric. At heroic levels they can still prove relevant.

[CTaylor]

There's no denying that each edition of Hero has been more complex than the previous one (even if select elements have been streamlined). I think that by now, there may be some need to scale back on a little bit of that complexity.

I think that's a great point that bears repeating: complexity scares away players, not rolling low or having math.

[James Gillen]

I think that's a great point that bears repeating: complexity scares away players, not rolling low or having math.

Repped.

jg

[Opal]

This is superheoric centric. At heroic levels they can still prove relevant.If they're allowed. Heroic levels often don't use frameworks - or even powers, in some cases.

[Vondy]

If they're allowed. Heroic levels often don't use frameworks - or even powers, in some cases.


And often they do. Its a genre and gamemaster question. I wouldn't want to see a construct that made it effectively impossible to use them where needed. There is a certain cavalier tone to a lot of the changes people are putting forth: "I play this way, so who cares if it screws up your play-style?" New ideas have to accomodate different styles of play as well or better as the current system does. Saying: well, "often they aren't allowed" is a straw man. It doesn't address the point that was put forth: that often they are. Is your solution to price them out of all heroic level games?

[mmshah]

I feel that Advantages to VPP should be removed (ones that affect the slots, not things like Cosmic). I realize this is an optional rule but it allows one to shatter active point limits as well as making it pointless to ever buy a power which has equal or more then +1 advantage outside a framework. I will give an example why.

VPP 40
Control (20 base, +1 Advantage AoE Radius)

Slot1: EB 8d6 40 AP (AoE Radius applied for free)

Outside the VPP the power would also cost a total of 60 points however the VPP is just better as it can be changed. When more advantages are applied AP limits get shattered, since one only has to pay for the advantages cost based on the Control Cost which is only 1/2 the Pool Cost (which is also the AP limit). And we have in no way limited the VPP which we could easily do to make it even cheaper and still provide more versatility then EB bought as a seperate power.

[Klaus Mogensen]

This morning I had a brain flash (yes, it hurt ;)) on how to simplify the OmniPool/UniPool immensely without losing flexibility. I now call it simply Power Framework, since if it is adopted, it will be the only power framework.

Edited: I have changed the cost structure for the basic Framework (from Framework Cost = (Total Real Cost of Powers)/5 + (Active Limit)/2 + (Operating Limit)/2).

POWER FRAMEWORK
Characters can collect conceptually linked Powers into a Power Framework. This gives a cost break compared to buying the Powers seperately, but imposes some limitations and weaknesses. For one thing, if a Power in a Power Framework is Drained or otherwise negatively affected, the entire Framework is affected. For another, you may not be able to use all the Powers in the Framework at the same time, depending on how the Framework is constructed.

Power Framework Structure
A Power Framework consists of four elements: A Concept (which defines what types of Powers are allowed in the Freamework), a Power Pool (a list of Powers in the Framework), an Active Limit (which limits the size of the individual Powers in the Framework), and an Operating Limit (which limits how much power can be used at any one time).

Concept: This is a description of the idea that defines the Framework. It can be as brief as "Fire Powers" or it can be more complex, as long as it is clear. Powers that don't fit the Concept don't belong in the Framework, nor can a Concept be so broad as to allow nearly any Power.
Power Pool: This is a list of all the Powers in the Framework.
Cost = (Total Real Cost of Powers)/6.
Active Limit: This defines the maximum Active Cost of any single Power in the Framework.
Cost = (Active Limit)/3
Operating Limit: This limits the total Real Cost of Powers that can be turned on at any one time. If a Power is partly turned on, it counts proportionally towards the Operating Limit.
Cost = (Operating Limit)/2

No limitations or advantages can be applied to the costs of these elements. However, limitations and advantages on the individual Powers will affect their Real Cost and hence how much they count towards the Power Pool cost and the Operating Limit.

If the Operating Limit is smaller than the total Real Cost of Powers in the Power Pool, only some of the Powers can be turned on at the same time, or they can only be turned partly on. Changing what Powers are turned on and to what degree is a 0-phase action and be done once in every phase.

If a Power in the Framework is Drained or otherwise negatively affected, this affects not only this Power, but also the Operating Limit. For every character point a Power is reduced, the Operating Limit is also reduced by 1.

Note: The Framework Concept has no cost. However, a GM may optionally charge character points for very broad concepts, e.g. 25% of the Operating Limit Cost.

Cost Summary: Framework Cost = (Total Real Cost of Powers)/6 + (Active Limit)/3 + (Operating Limit)/2

Example
Concept: Force Powers
20 Active Limit: 60
60 Operating Limit: 120
35 Power Pool: 210 points total
. 30PD/30ED Force Field. Real Cost 60
. 30" Flight. Real Cost 60
. 12d6 EB. Real Cost 60
. 16 PD Force Wall, Transparent to Energy (+½), Feedback (-1). Real Cost 30
Total cost: 115


Variable Pool {STOP}
A basic Power Pool in a Power Framework has a fixed list of Powers. Optionally, a Framework can have a Variable Pool where the list of Powers can be changed from time to time. The Powers must still fit within the Framework Concept.

The cost of a Variable Pool depends on how easy it is to change the list of Powers in it:

Slow: Changing the Power list in a Slow Variable Pool (SVP) usually requires several hours of tinkering or meditation and most likely access to a workshop and/or a collection of reference manuals (e.g. magic tomes). Alternately, the list can only be changed at a certain time of day, e.g. midnight. The exact circumstances depend on the Framework Concept.
Cost = (Maximum total Real Cost of Powers)/3.
Medium: Changing the Power list in a Medium Variable Pool (MVP) usually requires between 1 turn and 1 minute. Changing the list in combat can be done as a full-phase action; this requires a successful skill roll with an associated skill (Magic Skill, Gadgeteer, etc.) at -1 per 5 Real Points changed in the pool.
Cost = (Maximum total Real Cost of Powers)/2.
Fast:Changing the Power list in a Fast Variable Pool (FVP) can be either conscious or automatic (not both). If conscious, you can change the list as a 0-phase action. If automatic, the list changes to fit the circumstances without conscious character control (and will change even if the character is unconscious). This is e.g. suitable for an adaptive power that changes to fit a certain environment or the last attack the character was hit by.
Cost = Maximum total Real Cost of Powers.

Combining Pools: It is possible for a Power Framework to have several different kinds of Pools, e.g. a normal Power Pool (PP) and a FVP, or a SVP and a MVP. The Pools share the same Active Limit and Operating Limit.

Cost Summary: SVP cost = (Maximum total Real Cost of Powers)/3. MVP cost = (Maximum total Real Cost of Powers)/2. FVP cost = Maximum total Real Cost of Powers.
Example
Concept: Shape Changing
15 Active Limit: 45
45 Operating Limit: 90
30 Power Pool: 180 points total
. Shape Shift All Shapes, 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
. Growth rank 6, 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
. Shrinking rank 3, 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
. Stretching 6", 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
30 Fast Variable Pool: 30 points total
. Any Powers (e.g. Movement Powers) that fit shape, up to a Real Cost of 30
Total cost: 120

Example
Concept: Elemental Magic that requires at least a -2 casting limitation as a combination of the following limitations: Gestures, Incantation, Extra Time, and OAF: Staff.
20 Active Limit 60
20 Operating Limit 40
20 Slow Variable Pool: 60 points total
. This can e.g. contain three ready spells of 60 Active Points each. It takes hours of mediation and studying spell books to change these.
05 Medium Variable Pool: 10 points total
. This allows casting spells on the fly, but is limited to 30 Active Points maximum unless additional limitations are taken on the casting.
Total Cost: 65

________________
Klaus Æ. Mogensen

[Klaus Mogensen]

I feel that Advantages to VPP should be removed (ones that affect the slots, not things like Cosmic). I realize this is an optional rule but it allows one to shatter active point limits as well as making it pointless to ever buy a power which has equal or more then +1 advantage outside a framework. I will give an example why.

VPP 40
Control (20 base, +1 Advantage AoE Radius)

Slot1: EB 8d6 40 AP (AoE Radius applied for free)


You don't get the AoE Radius advantage for free. The 40 points in the VPP limits both the Active Cost of a single Power in the VPP and the total Real Cost of all the Powers in the VPP.

In fact, you should not put this advantage on the Control Cost at all. Advantages on the CC only determine how easily the Powers in the VPP can be changed, not what they are.

[mmshah]

Actually you can see pages 322-323 in FRED its an optional rule. You can enter this power in HD3 and it wont complain at all.

[Opal]

And often they do. Its a genre and gamemaster question. I wouldn't want to see a construct that made it effectively impossible to use them where needed. I think we're having two different conversations, here.

Phil asked Are Variable slots ("multis" at 1/5) too expensive compared to Fixed slots ("ultras" at 1/10)? Are they really worth twice as much? If so, why do so few characters have them? I replied with why I thought you don't see a lot of multi slots anymore.

I've rarely seen multipowers used in heroic level games, so I didn't speculate as to whether, let alone why, you might or might not see multi slots used in them.

I wouldn't want to see a construct that made it effectively impossible to use them where needed.

I'm not suggesting a change, just making an observation. The cost of multi slots is perfectly reasonable for what it gives, what it gives just isn't as critical at the current standard super hero point level, as it was when supers were 100+disads (assuming campaign caps haven't changed much - which certainly seems to be the case, IMX). Multis could still see a lot of use in games with lower point totals - or higher caps, for that matter.

[PhilFleischmann]

Or perhaps the "ultra" slots are too cheap?
That's a possibility also.

In any case, I think the point save on a Fixed slot compared to a "scaleable" slot is so small (6 points for a 60-point power) that the game doesn't lose much through getting rid of them.
It's not so small - it's 6 points *per slot* - at least 12 (since nobody has an MP with just one slot), and and frequently 30 or more for a five-slot Multipower.

However, if you evaluate the gain in simplicity in getting rid of Fixed slots versus the gain of flexibility in retaining them, I think simplicity wins.
I am in no way suggesting "getting rid of Fixed slots" - merely changing the cost of Variable slots (and maybe Fixed slots as well or instead) so that they're closer together. I don't think a Variable slot is twice as useful as a Fixed slot, therefore I don't think it shouldn't cost twice as much.

Perhaps "Variable Slot" should be an Advantage applied to a slot cost to change it from Fixed to Variable. I'd say it's worth no more than a +1/2 Advantage (rather than the +1 that it effectively is now).

[SteveZilla]

Instead of having two different pricing for Fixed and Variable slots, you could have just Variable slots, and then apply a Limitation on the slot specifying that it takes it's full value of points from the reserve to use. A -1 Limitation would make a nearly-identically cost "Fixed" slot as before. But by using a Limitation, it could be set at a different value -- say -3/4, or even -1/2.

[Mini-Nukette]

From Kalus Mogensen and Von D-Man's Omni-Power Framework (mine did get over complicated, I know, I know...) with different types of 'Power Pool.'

POWER FRAMEWORK
Characters can collect conceptually linked Powers into a Power Framework. This gives a cost break compared to buying the Powers seperately, but imposes some limitations and weaknesses. For one thing, if a Power in a Power Framework is Drained or otherwise negatively affected, the entire Framework is affected. For another, you may not be able to use all the Powers in the Framework at the same time, depending on how the Framework is constructed.

Power Framework Structure
A Power Framework consists of two primary elements: A Concept (which defines what types of Powers are allowed in the Framework), and Power Pool(s) (Powers within the Framework).


Concept: This is a description of the idea that defines the Framework. It can be as brief as "Fire Powers" or it can be more complex, as long as it is clear. Powers that don't fit the Concept don't belong in the Framework, nor can a Concept be so broad as to allow nearly any Power. The Framework Concept has no cost. However, a GM may optionally charge character points for very broad concepts, e.g. +25% on the Cost of Power Pools within the Framework.

Power Pools: Each Power Pool has a Cost in Character Points which defines how the Powers within that Power Pool can be used. This is based off the Real Cost of the Powers within the Power Pool, and the Power Pools Energy Reserve, if it has one. A Power Pool must contain at least two Powers.

POWER POOLS
There are six different types of Power Pools. From least to most expensive, these Power Pools are:

Versatile Power Pool
A character can only use one Power at any time in a Versatile Power Pool (VPP) Changing what Powers are turned on and to what degree is a 0-phase action and be done once in every phase. This Power Pool represents a single Power which can be used in a variety of individual ways.


Cost = Real Cost of Most Expensive Power + (Total Real Cost of Other Pool Powers / 10)

Integrated Power Pool
A character can use more than one of the Powers in an Integrated Power Pool (IPP) at the same time. However, for each Power in use, their Active Point strength is reduced. An Integrated Power Pool has a Set Energy Reserve equal to the most Active Points in any Power in the pool.
If two Powers are used or in use at the same time, then their Active Point strength is halved, if three Powers, then their Active Point strength is each at one third, and so on.
Changing what Powers are turned on and to what degree is a 0-phase action and be done once in every phase. This Power Pool represents a number of different Powers which draw their energy from the same source, but which the character has no control over the energy output itself.


Cost = Real Cost of Most Expensive Pool Power + (Total Real Cost of Other Pool Powers / 5)

Flexible Power Pool
A character can use more than one of the Powers in a Flexible Power Pool (FPP) at the same time. However, like an Integrated Power Pool, the more Powers in use at the same time, the less powerful they each are. Unlike the Integrated Power Pool, the player can choose how their character divides the Active Points, limited by an Energy Reserve.
The maximum amount of Active Points that can be used at any one time from a FP is equal to the Energy Reserve. The Energy Reserve can be up to half the Total Real Cost of the Powers in the pool.
Changing what Powers are turned on and to what degree is a 0-phase action and be done once in every phase. This Power Pool represents a number of different Powers which draw their energy from the same source, but over which the character can control the energy output to each Power as desired.


Cost = Energy Reserve + (Total Real Cost of All Pool Powers / 5)

Standard Power Pool
A character can use any of the Powers in a Basic Power Pool (SPP) at the same time (as long as they have the Endurance to meet the Powers needs of course).


Cost = (Real Cost of Most Expensive Pool Power + Total Real Cost of All Pool Powers) / 1½

Variable Power Pool
Whilst the other Power Pools have a fixed list of Powers, the Powers within a Variable Power Pool can be changed from time to time. The Powers must still fit within the Framework's Concept. The Cost of a Variable Power Pool depends on the Maximum Real Cost of the Powers it can contain, how easy it is to change the Powers in it.
A Variable Power Pool must also have an Energy Reserve, which determines the maximum amount of Active Points of Powers that can be in effect from it at any one time.
The easier/quicker it is for the character to change the Powers within the Variable Power Pool, the more expensive the pools cost. This must be chosen when the Variable Power Pool is first taken, from one of the four different "speeds" below:Slow: Changing the Power list in a Slow Variable Pool (SVPP) usually requires several hours of tinkering or meditation and most likely access to a workshop and/or a collection of reference manuals (e.g. magic tomes). Alternately, the list can only be changed at a certain time of day, e.g. midnight. The exact circumstances depend on the Framework Concept.

Cost = (Energy Reserve + Maximum total Real Cost of All Pool Powers) / 3

Medium: Changing the Power list in a Medium Variable Pool (MVP) usually requires between 1 minute to a half an hour. Changing the list in combat can be done as a full-phase action; this requires a successful skill roll with an associated skill (Magic Skill, Gadgeteer, etc.) at -1 per 5 Real Points changed in the pool.

Cost = (Energy Reserve + Maximum total Real Cost of All Pool Powers) / 2

Fast: Changing the Power list in a Fast Variable Pool (FVPP) usually requires 1 turn. Changing the list in combat can be done as a half-phase action; this requires a successful skill roll with an associated skill (Magic Skill, Gadgeteer, etc.) at -1 per 5 Real Points changed in the pool.


Cost = (Energy Reserve + Maximum total Real Cost of All Pool Powers ) / 1½

Instant: Changing the Power list in an Instant Variable Pool (IVPP) can be either be by conscious choice or automatic (not both), chosen when the Power Pool is taken. If by conscious choice, the character can change the list as a 0-phase action. If automatic, the list changes to fit the circumstances without conscious character control (and will change even if the character is unconscious). This is e.g. suitable for an adaptive power that changes to fit a certain environment or the last attack the character was hit by.

Cost = Energy Reserve + Maximum total Real Cost of All Pool Powers

*

Examples

Power Framework. Concept: Force Powers
┌ [ Force Powers (Versatile Power Pool)
│ 30PD/30ED Force Field. Real Cost 60
│ 30" Flight. Real Cost 60
│ 12d6 EB. Real Cost 60
│ 16 PD Force Wall, Transparent to Energy (+½), Feedback (1). Real Cost 30
└ Force Powers Cost: 75 . . . (60+((60+60+30)/10)). . . (Real Cost of Most Expensive Pool Power + (Total Real Cost of Other Pool Powers / 10) ]
Power Framework Cost: 75
Although this Versatile Power Pool saves 135 points, only one of the Powers can be used at a time.

Power Framework. Concept: Force Powers
┌[ Force Powers (Integrated Power Pool)
│ 30PD/30ED Force Field. Real Cost 60
│ 30" Flight. Real Cost 60
│ 12d6 EB. Real Cost 60
│ 16 PD Force Wall, Transparent to Energy (+½), Feedback (1). Real Cost 30
└ Force Powers Cost: 90 . . . (60+((60+60+30)/5)). . . (Real Cost of Most Expensive Pool Power + (Total Real Cost of Other Pool Powers / 5) ]
Power Framework Cost: 90
The Integrated Power Pool saves 120 points. The character can use multiple Powers from it, but each in use beyond the first reduces the Active Point strength of each, to half for two Powers, one third for three, and one fourth Active Point strength when using all four.

Power Framework. Concept: Force Powers
┌ [ Force Powers (Flexible Power Pool, 120 Energy Reserve)
│ 30PD/30ED Force Field. Real Cost 60
│ 30" Flight. Real Cost 60
│ 12d6 EB. Real Cost 60
│ 16 PD Force Wall, Transparent to Energy (+½), Feedback (1). Real Cost 30
└ Force Powers Cost: 162 . . . 120+((60+60+60+30)/5). . . (Energy Reserve + (Total Real Cost of Powers / 5) ]
Power Framework Cost: 162
The Flexible Power Pool saves 48 points. The character can use multiple Powers, with a total Active Point cost of up to 120, as chosen by the player.

Power Framework. Concept: Force Powers
┌ [ Force Powers (Standard Power Pool)
│ 30PD/30ED Force Field. Real Cost 60
│ 30" Flight. Real Cost 60
│ 12d6 EB. Real Cost 60
│ 16 PD Force Wall, Transparent to Energy (+½), Feedback (1). Real Cost 30
└ Force Powers Cost: 180 . . . (60+60+60+60+30)/1½)). . . (Real Cost of Most Expensive Pool Power + (Total Real Cost of All Pool Powers / 1½) ]
Power Framework Cost: 180
The Standard Power Pool saves 30 points. The character can use all the Powers here at once, Endurance allowing.

Power Framework. Concept: Elemental Magic that requires at least a -2 limitation as a combination of the following casting limitations: Gestures, Incantation, Extra Time, and OAF: Staff.
┌ [ True Elemental Magic (Slow Variable Pool, 60 Energy Reserve)
│ The character can memorize up to 180 Active Points worth of Powers,
│ know three ready spells of 60 Active Points each. It takes hours of
│ mediation and studying spell books to change these. The character can
│ have up to 60 Active Points in effect at any one time.
└ True Elemental Magic Cost: 80 . . . (60+180)/3. . . (Energy Reserve + Maximum total of Active Points) / 3 ]
┌ [ Simple Elemental Magic. (Medium Variable Pool, Energy Reserve 10)
│ This allows casting spells on the fly, but is limited to 30 Active Points
│ maximum unless additional limitations are taken on the casting, and 10
│ Active Points in effect at any one time.
└ Simple Elemental Magic Cost: 20 . . . (10+30)/2. . . (Energy Reserve + Maximum total Real Cost of Powers) / 2 ]
┌ [ Elemental Cantrips (Fast Variable Pool, Energy Reserve 5)
│ The Elementalist can create very simple elemental magics, but is
│ limited to 10 Active Points maximum unless additional limitations are
│ taken on the casting, and just 5 Active Points in effect at any one time.
└ Elemental Cantrips Cost: 10 . . . (5+10)/1½ . . . (Energy Reserve + Maximum total Real Cost of Powers) / 1½ ]
Power Framework Cost: 110

The Elementalist character can know up to 220 Active Points worth of spells, and have up to 75 Active Points worth of spells in effect at any one time, as limited by each of the individual Variable Power Pools in the Power Framework.

*

Stacking Power Pools
A character can place one pool within another within a Power Frameworks structure. For determining Costs, the upper Power Pool(s) in a Framework count any subsidiary Power Pools they may contain as if they were Powers instead. Whilst this may save further points, it also compounds the restrictions of the Power Pools.

*

Examples:

Power Framework. Concept: Shape Changing
┌ [ Shapeshifter (Flexible Power Pool, 120 Energy Reserve)
│ Shape Shift All Shapes, 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
│ Stretching 6", 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
├─┬ [ Alter Size (Flexible Power Pool, 60 Energy Reserve)
│ │Growth rank 6, 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
│ │Shrinking rank 3, 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
│ └ Alter Size Cost: 69 . . . 60+((45+45)/5) . . . Energy Reserve + (Total Real Cost of Powers / 5) ]
├─┬ [ Adapt to Form (Instant Variable Pool, 30 Energy Reserve, Automatic Change)
│ │ Any Powers (e.g. Movement Powers) that fits shape, up to a total Real Cost of 30
│ └ Adapt to Form Cost: 60 . . . 30+30 . . . Energy Reserve + Maximum total Real Cost of Pool Powers ]
└ Shapeshifter Cost: 164 . . .(120+(45+45+69+60)/5). . .(Energy Reserve + (Total Real Cost of All Pool Powers /5) ]
Power Framework Total Cost: 164
This Power Framework saves 46 points. The character can use up to 120 Active Points at a time from the Shapeshifter Power Pool, including Active Points in its contained Power Pools -- up to 60 Active Points from Alter Size and up to 30 Active Points from Adapt to Form -- at any one time.

Concept: Elemental Magic that requires at least a -2 limitation as a combination of the following casting limitations: Gestures, Incantation, Extra Time, and OAF: Staff.
┌ [ True Elemental Magic (Slow Variable Pool, 60 Energy Reserve)
│ The character can memorize up to 180 Active Points worth of Powers,
│ e.g. know three ready spells of 60 Active Points each. It takes hours
│ of mediation and studying spell books to change these. The character
│ can have up to 60 Active Points in effect at any one time.
├─┬ [ Simple Elemental Magic (Medium Variable Pool, 10 Energy Reserve)
│ │ This allows casting spells on the fly, but is limited to 30 Active Points
│ │ maximum unless additional limitations are taken on the casting, and 10
│ │ Active Points in effect at any one time.
│ ├─┬─ [ Elemental Cantrips (Fast Variable Pool, Energy Reserve 5) ]
│ │ │ The Elementalist can create very simple elemental magics, but is
│ │ │ limited to 10 Active Points maximum unless additional limitations
│ │ │ are taken on the casting, and 5 Active Points in effect at any
│ │ │ one time.
│ │ └ Elemental Cantrips Cost: 10 . . . (5+10)/1½ . . . (Energy Reserve + Maximum total Real Cost of Powers) / 1½ ]
│ └ Simple Elemental Magic Cost: 25 . . . (10+30+10)/2. . . (Energy Reserve + Maximum total Real Cost of Powers) / 2 ]
└ True Elemental Magic Cost: 88 . . . (60+180+25)/3 . . .(Energy Reserve + Maximum total Real Cost of Powers) / 3 ]
Power Framework Cost: 88
By placing the FVP inside the MVP, and the MVP inside the SVP, 22 points are saved from the earlier Elemental Magic Power Framework example. However, this compounds the limits defined by each of the Power Pools. The more Active Points the character has tied into one Variable Pool, the less he can put into the other Variable Pools.

[Klaus Mogensen]

POWER POOLS
There are six different types of Power Pools. From least to most expensive, these Power Pools are:

Versatile Power Pool
A character can only use one Power at any time in a Versatile Power Pool (VPP) Changing what Powers are turned on and to what degree is a 0-phase action and be done once in every phase. This Power Pool represents a single Power which can be used in a variety of individual ways.


Cost = Real Cost of Most Expensive Power + (Total Real Cost of Other Pool Powers / 10)


I think this is open to abuse without something like an Active Limit. Look at this example:

30/30 FF (RC 60)
45" Flight, double end (RC 60)
24d6 EB, full phase, no range (RC 60)
8d6 EB, AoE radius, hole in the middle, no range (RC 60)
Total Cost: 60 + (180)/10 = 78


In a standard Multipower with ultra slots, this set of Powers would cost 148 points.

This is a problem shared with several other of your Pool types. There is a very good reason why I included an Active Limit in my framework design.

In my latest Power Framework version, it would cost 138 points, but allow scaling the powers:

60 Active Limit 120
30 Operating Limit 60
48 Power Pool (RC 240)
Total Cost:138


Flexible Power Pool
A character can use more than one of the Powers in a Flexible Power Pool (FPP) at the same time. However, like an Integrated Power Pool, the more Powers in use at the same time, the less powerful they each are. Unlike the Integrated Power Pool, the player can choose how their character divides the Active Points, limited by an Energy Reserve.
The maximum amount of Active Points that can be used at any one time from a FP is equal to the Energy Reserve. The Energy Reserve can be up to half the Total Real Cost of the Powers in the pool.

Cost = Energy Reserve + (Total Real Cost of All Pool Powers / 5)


There is a problem here if the powers have limitations. Example:

Energy Reserve: 45 (maximum)
12d6 EB, OAF (RC 30)
30" Flight, OAF (RC 30)
30/30 FF, OAF (RC 30)
Total Cost: 45 + 3x30/5 = 62

Even with the maximum possible Energy Reserve, you can at most use one Power at 3/4 strength. A rather bad deal at the cost, which is more than what you would pay for two of the powers seperately.


I haven't looked in detail at your other Pool types. I think the entire construct is a little too complex, and several of the Pool types are rather similar, making me question if it is really necessary to have them all.

________________
Klaus Æ. Mogensen

[Klaus Mogensen]

After calculating numerous examples, I've decided to change the cost structure of my simple Power Framework (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1569328&postcount=293):

Cost = (Active Limit)/3 + (Operating Limit)/2 + (Total Real Cost of Power Pool)/6
(The costs of the Variable Pools are unchanged)

This has a nice aesthetic feature: A framework with a single Power will cost exactly the same as the Power itself (provided it has no limitations).

The main reasons for the change are:

I found that because you could no longer take limitations on the Active Limit that frameworks with many limitations became too expensive.
Since there no longer are any 'fixed slots', I decided to reduce the cost of the Power Pool slightly in compensation.
This also makes EC-like frameworks slightly less expensive. They are now two-thirds normal cost per 'slot' beyond the first for a basic EC, compared to 70% before the change (the first 'slot' also gets cheaper: 100% instead of 120%). This is still more expensive than a standard EC, but combining ECs and MPs gets cheaper (see example below).


Example
20 Active Limit 60
90 Operating Limit 180
50 Power Pool 300
. 12d6 EB
. 4d6 RKA
. 6d6 EB, AoE
. 30/30 Force Field
. 30" Flight
Total Cost 160

Compare this to:

60 MP
u6 12d6 EB
u6 4d6 RKA
u6 6d6 EB, AoE
+
30 EC
30 30/30 Force Field
30 30" Flight
Total Cost 168

________________
Klaus Æ. Mogensen

[Mini-Nukette]

Okies, I didn't figure an Active Point limit in my previous post, but that is easily changed. How about this?

POWER FRAMEWORK
Characters can collect conceptually linked Powers into a Power Framework. This gives a cost break compared to buying the Powers separately, but imposes some limitations and weaknesses. For one thing, if a Power in a Power Framework is Drained or otherwise negatively affected, the entire Framework is affected. For another, you may not be able to use all the Powers in the Framework at the same time, depending on how the Framework is constructed.

● Power Framework Structure
A Power Framework consists of two primary elements: A Concept (which defines what types of Powers are allowed in the Framework), and Power Pool(s) (Powers within the Framework).

● Concept: This is a description of the idea that defines the Framework. It can be as brief as "Fire Powers" or it can be more complex, as long as it is clear. Powers that don't fit the Concept don't belong in the Framework, nor can a Concept be so broad as to allow nearly any Power. The Framework Concept has no cost. However, a GM may optionally charge character points for very broad concepts, e.g. +25% on the Cost of Power Pools within the Framework.

● Power Pools: Each Power Pool has a Cost in Character Points. This is based off the Active Points and/or Real Costs of the Powers and the Power Pools Primary Power and/or Energy Reserve.

POWER POOLS
There are four standard types of Power Pool. The first Power placed in a Power Pool is called the Primary Power. Each Power Pool also has an Energy Reserve, which is equal to the Active Points of the Primary Power. None of the other Powers placed in a Power Pool may initially have more Active Points than that of the Energy Reserve*, or a Real Cost over that of the Primary Powers.

Footnote : *From later experience points, the player could raise another Powers Active Points over that of the Energy Reserve and that of the original Primary Power, in which case the Power with the highest Active Points in the pool becomes the new Primary Power, and the Energy Reserve of the pool increases to match.

◦ Primary Power = Primary Power's Real Cost
◦ Energy Reserve = Primary Power's Active Points

From least to most expensive, the Power Pools are:

● Versatile . . . Cost = Primary Power + (Total Real Cost of Other Pool Powers /10)
● Integrated . . Cost = Primary Power + (Total Real Cost of Other Pool Powers /5)
● Flexible . . . . Cost = Primary Power + (Extra Energy Reserve / 2) + (Total Real Cost of Other Pool Powers /4)
● Standard . . . Cost = Primary Power + (Total Real Cost of Other Pool Powers /1½)

● Versatile: A character can only use one Power at any time in a Versatile Power Pool (VPP) Changing what Powers are turned on and to what degree is a 0-phase action and be done once in every phase. This Power Pool represents a single Power which can be used in a variety of individual ways.
Cost = Primary Power + (Total Real Cost of Other Pool Powers /10)

● Integrated: A character can use more than one of the Powers in an Integrated Power Pool (IPP) at the same time. However, for each Power in use, their Active Point strength is reduced.
If two Powers are used or in use at the same time, then their Active Point strength is halved, if three Powers, then their Active Point strength is each at one third, and so on.
Changing what Powers are turned on and to what degree is a 0-phase action and be done once in every phase. This Power Pool represents a number of different Powers which draw their energy from the same source, but the character has no control over the energy output to each Power in use.
Cost = Primary Power + (Total Real Cost of Other Pool Powers /5)

● Flexible: A character can use more than one of the Powers in a Flexible Power Pool (FPP) at the same time. However, like an Integrated Power Pool, the more Powers in use at the same time, the less powerful they each are. Unlike the Integrated Power Pool, the player can choose how their character divides the Active Points, limited by an Energy Reserve.
The maximum amount of Active Points that can be used at any one time from a FP is equal to the Energy Reserve. The player can purchase Extra Energy Reserve, spending additional points, to increase the maximum amount of Active Points that the pool can use. The player can raise the Energy Reserve up to three quarters of the total Active Points in the Power Pool.
Changing what Powers are turned on and to what degree is a 0-phase action and be done once in every phase. This Power Pool represents a number of different Powers which draw their energy from the same source, but over which the character can control the energy output to each Power as desired.
Cost = Primary Power + (Extra Energy Reserve /2) + (Total Real Cost of Other Pool Powers /4)

● Standard: A character can use any of the Powers in a Standard Power Pool (SPP) at the same time (as long as they have the Endurance to meet the Powers needs of course). The Standard Power Pool has an Energy Reserve equal to the highest Active Points in any of the pools Powers.
Cost = Primary Power + (Total Real Cost of Other Pool Powers /1½)


Variable Power Pool
Whilst the other Power Pools have a fixed list of Powers, the Powers within a Variable Power Pool can be changed from time to time. The Powers must still fit within the Framework's Concept. The Cost of a Variable Power Pool depends on the how easy it is to change the Powers in it, its Energy Reserve, and the maximum Real Points worth of Powers it can contain.

● Variable . . .Cost = Energy Reserve x2

The Active Points of any Power in the pool, and the Active Points of any Powers in the pool in effect at any one time, cannot exceed the Energy Reserve. The maximum Real Points worth of Powers that can be placed in the Variable Power Pools is determined by the chosen 'speed':

◦ Slow: The character can have up three times the Energy Reserve worth in Real Points of Powers in a Slow Variable Pool (SVP). Changing the Power list in a SVP usually requires several hours of tinkering or meditation and most likely access to a workshop and/or a collection of reference manuals (e.g. magic tomes). Alternately, the list can only be changed at a certain time of day, e.g. midnight. The exact circumstances depend on the Framework Concept.

◦ Medium: The character can have up to twice the Energy Reserve worth in Real Points of Powers in a Medium Variable Pool (MVP). Changing the Power list in a MVP usually requires between 1 minute to a half an hour. Changing the list in combat can be done as a full-phase action; this requires a successful skill roll with an associated skill (Magic Skill, Gadgeteer, etc.) at -1 per 5 Real Points changed in the pool.

◦ Fast: The character can have up to the one and a half times the Energy Reserve worth in Real Points of Powers in a Fast Variable Pool (FVP). Changing the Power list in a FVP usually requires 1 turn. Changing the list in combat can be done as a half-phase action; this requires a successful skill roll with an associated skill (Magic Skill, Gadgeteer, etc.) at -1 per 5 Real Points changed in the pool.

◦ Instant: The character can have up to the Energy Reserve worth in Real Points in an Instant Variable Pool (IVP). Changing the Power list in an (IVP) can be either be by conscious choice or automatic (not both), chosen when the Power Pool is taken. If by conscious choice, the character can change the list as a 0-phase action. If automatic, the list changes to fit the circumstances without conscious character control (and will change even if the character is unconscious). This is e.g. suitable for an adaptive power that changes to fit a certain environment or the last attack the character was hit by.

*

Examples

Power Framework. Concept: Force Powers
┌─[ Force Powers (Versatile Power Pool, 60 Energy Reserve)
│ . 30PD/30ED Force Field. Real Cost 60
│ . 30" Flight. Real Cost 60
│ . 12d6 EB. Real Cost 60
│ . 16 PD Force Wall, Transparent to Energy (+½), Feedback (-1). Real Cost 30
└─ = Force Powers Cost: 78 . . . 60+((60+60+30)/10)). . . Primary Power + (Total Real Cost of Other Pool Powers /10) ]
Power Framework Cost: 78

▲ Although this Versatile Power Pool saves 132 points from the total Real Cost of the Powers if each was taken individually outside of a Power Framework, only one of the Powers can be used at a time.

Power Framework. Concept: Force Powers
┌─[ Force Powers (Integrated Power Pool, 60 Energy Reserve)
│ . 30PD/30ED Force Field. Real Cost 60
│ . 30" Flight. Real Cost 60
│ . 12d6 EB. Real Cost 60
│ . 16 PD Force Wall, Transparent to Energy (+½), Feedback (-1). Real Cost 30
└─ = Force Powers Cost: 90 . . . 60+(60+60+30)/5). . . Primary Power + (Total Real Cost of Other Pool Powers /5) ]
Power Framework Cost: 90

▲ The Integrated Power Pool saves 120 points from the Real Cost of the Powers outside of a Power Framework, and the character can use multiple Powers from it. However, for each in use beyond the first, the Active Point strength of each Power is reduced, to half Active Points strength for two Powers in use at the same time, to one third Active Points strength for three in use at the same time, and to one fourth Active Point strength when using all four Powers.

Power Framework. Concept: Force Powers
┌─[ Force Powers (Flexible Power Pool, 120 Energy Reserve (60 Base Energy Reserve + 60 Extra Energy Reserve)
│ . 30PD/30ED Force Field. Real Cost 60
│ . 30" Flight. Real Cost 60
│ . 12d6 EB. Real Cost 60
│ . 16 PD Force Wall, Transparent to Energy (+½), Feedback (-1). Real Cost 30
└─ = Force Powers Cost: 128 . . . 60+(60/2)+((60+60+30)/4). . . Primary Power + (Extra Energy Reserve /2) + (Total Real Cost of Other Pool Powers /4) ]
Power Framework Cost: 128

Power Framework. Concept: Force Powers
┌─[ Force Powers (Flexible Power Pool, 120 Energy Reserve (60 Base Energy Reserve + 60 Extra Energy Reserve)
│ . 30PD/30ED Force Field. Real Cost 60
│ . 30" Flight. Real Cost 60
│ . 12d6 EB. Real Cost 60
│ . 16 PD Force Wall, Transparent to Energy (+½), Feedback (-1). Real Cost 30
└─ = Force Powers Cost: 128 . . . 60+(120/2)+((240)/4). . . Primary Power + (Extra Energy Reserve /2) + (Total Real Cost of Other Pool Powers /4) ]
Power Framework Cost: 128

▲ The Flexible Power Pool saves 82 points. The character can use multiple Powers, with a total Active Point cost of up to 120, as chosen by the player.

Power Framework. Concept: Force Powers
┌─[ Force Powers (Standard Power Pool, 60 Energy Reserve)
│ . 30PD/30ED Force Field. Real Cost 60
│ . 30" Flight. Real Cost 60
│ . 12d6 EB. Real Cost 60
│. 16 PD Force Wall, Transparent to Energy (+½), Feedback (1). Real Cost 30
└─ = Force Powers Cost: 160 . . . 60+((60+60+30)/1½). . . Primary Power + (Total Real Cost of Other Pool Powers /1½) ]
Power Framework Cost: 160

▲ The Standard Power Pool saves 50 points. The character can use all the Powers here at once, Endurance allowing.

*

Power Framework. Concept: Elemental Magic that requires at least a -2 limitation as a combination of the following casting limitations: Gestures, Incantation, Extra Time, and OAF: Staff.
┌─ [ True Elemental Magic (Slow Variable Pool, 60 Energy Reserve)
│ . . The character can memorize up to 180 Real Points worth of true elemental spells, e.g. know
│ . . three spells of up to 60 Active Points each, unless additional limitations are taken on their
│ . . casting. It takes hours of mediation and studying spell books to change these. The character
│ . . can have up to 60 Active Points in effect at any one time.
└─ = True Elemental Magic Cost: 120 . . . Energy Reserve x2 ]
┌─[ Simple Elemental Magic. (Medium Variable Pool, Energy Reserve 20)
│ . . This allows casting spells on the fly, but is limited to 40 Real Points of simple spells unless
│ . . additional limitations are taken on the casting, and 20 Active Points in effect at any one time.
└─ = Simple Elemental Magic Cost: 20 . . . Energy Reserve x2 ]
┌─[ Elemental Cantrips (Fast Variable Pool, Energy Reserve 10)
│ . . The Elementalist can create very simple elemental magics, but is limited to 15 Real Points
│ . . of cantrips unless additional limitations are taken on the casting, and just 10 Active Points in
│ . . effect at any one time.
└─ = Elemental Cantrips Cost: 10 . . . Energy Reserve x2 ]
Power Framework Cost: 150

▲ The Elementalist character can know up to 205 Active Points worth of spells, and have up to 75 Active Points worth of spells in effect at any one time, as limited by each of the individual Variable Power Pools in the Power Framework.

Power Framework. Concept: Shape Changing
┌─[ Shapeshifting (Flexible Power Pool, 120 Energy Reserve (60 Energy Reserve + 60 Extra Energy Reserve))
│ . . Shape Shift All Shapes, 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
│ . . Stretching 6", 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
│ . . Growth rank 6, 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
│ . . Shrinking rank 3, 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
└─ = Shapeshifting Cost: 108 . . . 45+(60/2)+((45+45+45)/4) . . . Primary Power + (Extra Energy Reserve /2) + (Total Real Cost of Other Pool Powers /4) ]
┌─[ Adapt to Form (Instant Variable Pool, Automatic Change, 30 Energy Reserve)
│ . . Any Powers (e.g. Movement Powers) that fits shape, up to a total Real Cost of 30
└─ = Adapt to Form Cost: 60 . . . 30x2 . . . Energy Reserve x2 ]
Power Framework Total Cost: 168

▲ This Power Framework saves 42 points from the Real Costs of the Powers. For this discount in points, the character is restricted to using no more than 120 Active Points from the Shapeshifter Power Pool. When changing form, up to 30 Real Cost of Powers can automatically be assigned by the player (with the GM's discretion) which fit the characters new shape in the IPP Adapt to Form.

*

Stacking Power Pools
A character can place one pool within another within a Power Frameworks structure. For determining Costs, the upper Power Pool(s) in a Framework count any subsidiary Power Pools they may contain as if they were Powers instead. Whilst this may save further points, it also compounds the restrictions of the Power Pools.

*

Examples:

Power Framework. Concept: Shape Changing
┌─[ Shapeshifter (Flexible Power Pool, 120 Energy Reserve (60 Energy Reserve + 60 Extra Energy Reserve))
│ . . Shape Shift All Shapes, 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
│ . . Stretching 6", 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
│ . . Growth rank 6, 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
│ . . Shrinking rank 3, 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
│ . ┌─[ Adapt to Form (Instant Variable Pool, Automatic Change, 22 Energy Reserve)
│ . │ . . Any Powers (e.g. Movement Powers) that fits shape, up to a total Real Cost of 22
│ . └─ = Adapt to Form Cost: 44 . . . 22x2 . . . Energy Reserve x2 ]
└─ = Shapeshifter Cost: 120 . . . 45+(60/2)+(45+45+45+44)/4) . . .
. . . . . (Primary Power + (Extra Energy Reserve /2) + (Total Real Cost of Other Pool Powers /4) ]
Power Framework Total Cost: 120

▲ This Power Framework saves 90 points from the Real Costs of the Powers, another 48 from the previous Shapeshifter example, by placing the IVP Adapt to Form within the FPP Shapeshifter. As Adapt to Form is now counted as a Power itself under the FPP Shapeshifter, it must have a Real Cost no more than that of Shapeshifters Primary Power, so it had to be lowered to an Energy Reserve of 22. So now the character is restricted to using no more than 120 Active Points from the Shapeshifter Power Pool at any one time --- which includes up to 22 Active Points in Adapt to Form.

Concept: Elemental Magic that requires at least a -2 limitation as a combination of the following casting limitations: Gestures, Incantation, Extra Time, and OAF: Staff.
┌─ [ True Elemental Magic (Slow Variable Pool, 60 Energy Reserve)
│ . . The character can memorize up to 180 Real Points worth of true elemental spells, e.g. know
│ . . three spells of up to 60 Active Points each, unless additional limitations are taken on their
│ . . casting. It takes hours of mediation and studying spell books to change these. The character
│ . . can have up to 60 Active Points in effect at any one time.
│ . . ┌─[ Simple Elemental Magic. (Medium Variable Pool, Energy Reserve 20)
│ . . │ . . This allows casting spells on the fly, but is limited to 40 Real Points of simple spells unless
│ . . │ . . additional limitations are taken on the casting, and 20 Active Points in effect at any one time.
│ . . │ . . ┌─[ Elemental Cantrips (Fast Variable Pool, Energy Reserve 10)
│ . . │ . . │ . . The Elementalist can create very simple elemental magics, but is limited to 15 Real Points
│ . . │ . . │ . . of cantrips unless additional limitations are taken on the casting, and just 10 Active Points in
│ . . │ . . │ . . effect at any one time.
│ . . │ . . └─ = Elemental Cantrips Cost: 20 . . . Energy Reserve x2 (subsumed into Simple Elemental Magic Energy Cost) ]
│ . . └─ = Simple Elemental Magic Cost: 40 . . . 40 . . . Energy Reserve x2 (subsumed into True Elemental Magic Cost) ]
└─ = True Elemental Magic Cost: 120 . . . 60x2 . . . Energy Reserve x2 ]

Power Framework Cost: 120

▲ By placing the FVP inside the MVP, and the MVP inside the SVP, 30 points are saved from the earlier Elemental Magic Power Framework example. However, this compounds the limits defined by each of the Power Pools. The more Active Points the character has in effect or tied into one Variable Pool, the less he can use or put into the other Variable Pools.

*

[Klaus Mogensen]

How about this?
[cut very long description of power framework]

Better than before, and the cost structure seems more reasonable. However, I think it is still way too complex.

I also see a problem in how you limit both Active Cost and Real Cost based on a single Primary Power. Let's say that the power with the greatest Active Cost is a 8d6 EB, AoE, Full Phase (Active Cost 80, Real Cost 53). Then you could not put in a basic 12d6 EB, because this has a Real Cost of 60. However, if you make this the Primary Power, you can't have the first power in the pool (too high active cost). You have made a construct which in no way allows what seems a reasonable combination of powers.

In my framework, you could include both of these powers if you set the Active Limit to 80 and the Operating Limit to 60. (Cost with revised cost scheme: 80/3 + 60/2 + (53+60)/6 = 76).

________________
Klaus Æ. Mogensen

[Mini-Nukette]

Isn't that part and parcel of the price of saving points on a Power Framework though, the restrictions?

For just a slight change (+1d6 on the AoE EB), the two powers you suggested fit into my Versatile Power Pool:

┌─ [Versatile Power Pool (Energy Reserve 90)
│ 9d6 EB, AoE, Full Phase (Active Points 90, Real Cost 60)
│ 12d6 EB (Active Points/Real Cost 60)
└─ = 66 . . . 60+(60/10). . . Primary Power + (Total Real Cost of Other Pool Powers /10)

Placing the two Powers into a Flexible Power Pool, the player can choose how many Active Points of damage are rolled:

┌─ [Flexible Power Pool (Energy Reserve 80 + 0 Extra Energy Reserve)
│ 1d6 to 9d6 EB, AoE, Full Phase (Active Points 5-80, Real Cost 60)
│ 1d6 to 12d6 EB (Active Points 5-60, Real Cost 60)
└─ = 75 . . . 60+(0/2)+(60/4). . . Primary Power + (Extra Energy Reserve / 2) + (Total Real Cost of Other Pool Powers /4)

Like your revised costs (which did inspire me too) I adjusted to a Primary Power so that the cost of a Power Pool with just one Power in it is the same as outside of the Power Framework.

Currently though, both of our Power Frameworks come out cheaper than that of the current Elemental Controls, Multipower, etc. Being cheaper in cost is better than the cost being more for converting between the editions, but I think ideally the previous Power Frameworks should have a comparable new Power Framework option with an identical cost, whilst the new Power Framework offers more variety and consolidates the previous Frameworks into one.

[Klaus Mogensen]

Currently though, both of our Power Frameworks come out cheaper than that of the current Elemental Controls, Multipower, etc. Being cheaper in cost is better than the cost being more for converting between the editions, but I think ideally the previous Power Frameworks should have a comparable new Power Framework option with an identical cost, whilst the new Power Framework offers more variety and consolidates the previous Frameworks into one.
Actually, my framework makes something like Elemental Controls more expensive. The same goes for something like fixed-slot Multipowers. Something like Normal-slot Multipowers will be slightly less expensive, unless for Multipowers with limitations on the MP itself - this will be slightly more expensive in my framework.

What generally is cheaper is constructs in between the current frameworks. For instance, a three-power MP where any two powers can be used at full cost is almost as expensive as buying the three powers seperately. In my framework, such as construct is more reasonably priced:

20 Active Cost 60
60 Operating Cost 120
30 Power Pool 180
. 12d6 EB
. 20/20 FF, 0 End
. 20" Flight, 0 End
Total: 110

Hmm, this is actually cheaper than buying two of the powers seperately. Have to look at the cost scheme again. Back to the drawing board...

Edit: Actually, not a problem, now that I think about it. An Elemental Control-like discount is, after all, included in the framework cost. And an Elemental Control with the same three powers (which can then all be used at full power) will cost 120 points.

- Klaus

[Mini-Nukette]

Heh, mine currently comes to the same Cost.

┌─ [Flexible Power Pool (Energy Reserve 80 + 40 Extra Energy Reserve)
│ 1d6 to 12d6 EB (Active Points 5-80, Real Cost 60)
│ 20/20 Forcefield, 0 End (Active Points/Real Cost 60)
│ 20" Flight, 0 End (Active Points/Real Cost 60)
└─ = 110 . . . 60+(40/2)+((60+60)/4). . . Primary Power + (Extra Energy Reserve / 2) + (Total Real Cost of Other Pool Powers /4)

Compared to 138 for a Flexible Multipower with the same powers/active points usable.

Hmm, perhaps by not halving the Extra Energy Reserve.

[casualplayer]

I think Elemental Control should be renamed Concept. Or maybe Bundle.

Multipower can be renamed Annuity, so you can have fixed and variable slots. :D whoo, that was bad, even for me

VPP should be renamed Reservoir, or Reserve if you're francophopic.

[Mini-Nukette]

Another possibility, with a Flexible Advantage usable only with a Power in a Power Pool (Query: Is there an Advantage that lets a character change the strength of a Power in any of the current books?)...

POWER FRAMEWORK
Characters can collect conceptually linked Powers into a Power Framework. This gives a cost break compared to buying the Powers seperately, but imposes some limitations and weaknesses. For one thing, if a Power in a Power Framework is Drained or otherwise negatively affected, the entire Framework is affected. For another, you may not be able to use all the Powers in the Framework at the same time, depending on how the Framework is constructed.

● Power Framework Structure
A Power Framework consists of two primary elements: A Concept (which defines what types of Powers are allowed in the Framework), and Power Pool(s) (sets of Powers within the Framework).

● Concept: This is a description of the idea that defines the Framework. It can be as brief as "Fire Powers" or it can be more complex, as long as it is clear. Powers that don't fit the Concept don't belong in the Framework, nor can a Concept be so broad as to allow nearly any Power. The Framework Concept has no cost. However, a GM may optionally charge character points for very broad concepts, e.g. +25% on the Cost of Power Pools within the Framework.

● Power Pools: Each Power Pool has a Cost in Character Points which defines how the Powers within that Power Pool can be used. This is based off the Active Points and/or Real Costs of the Powers and the Power Pools Energy Reserve.

POWER POOLS
The base cost for a Power Pool in Character Points is equal to its Base Energy Reserve. This determines both the maximum Active Points value of any Power placed in the Power Pool, and the number of those Powers which can be used at any one time. The Flexible Advantage below has a special effect in Power Pools.

● No Power placed in a Power Pool can exceed the Base Energy Reserve in Active Points cost. Note though that the Flexible Advantage does not count towards this limit.

● Every Power placed in a Power Pool costs one tenth its Real Cost.

● A character can use up to the Energy Reserve of Active Points at once from any Power Pool. Note that Flexible Advantage does not count towards this limitation. This usually restricts the character to using one of the Powers in a Power Pool at any one time.

● Extra Energy Reserve can be added, which costs four Character Points for each point of Extra Energy Reserve. Extra Energy Reserve only counts towards determining the Active Points value of Powers that can be used at the same time from the Power Pool, not the maximum Active Point value of a Power that can be placed in the Power Pool itself.

● Power Pool Cost = Energy Reserve + (Total of Power Real Costs /10) + (Extra Energy Reserve /4)


Advantage: FLEXIBLE
Value: Varies (See below)
Only a Power in a Power Pool can have this Advantage. A Power with this Advantage can be used at different strengths, at the characters choice. For every +¼ Advantage, the Power can be used at up to 15 Character Points lower strength in its basic Cost. For example, a 6d6 Energy Blast (basic Power Cost 5 per 1d6) with a +¼ Flexible Advantage can be used at 4d6 to 6d6 strength (Power Cost 20 to 30). With a +½ Flexible Advantage, it could be used at 2d6 to 6d6 strength (Power Cost 10 to 30).


Examples
(* marks range of Base Power Cost where Flexible Advantage has been taken)

Power Framework. Concept: Force Powers
┌─[ Force Powers (Power Pool, 60 Energy Reserve)
│ . 30PD/30ED Force Field. Real Cost 60
│ . 30" Flight. Real Cost 60
│ . 12d6 EB. Real Cost 60
│ . 16 PD Force Wall, Transparent to Energy (+½), Feedback (-1). Real Cost 30
└─ = Force Powers Cost: 81 . . . 60+((60+60+60+30)/10)). . . Energy Reserve + (Total of Power Real Costs /10) ]
Power Framework Cost: 81

▲ This Power Pool saves 129 points from the total Real Cost of the Powers if each was taken individually outside of a Power Framework, only one of the Powers can be used at a time.

Power Framework. Concept: Force Powers
┌─[ Force Powers (Power Pool, 120 Energy Reserve (60 Base Energy Reserve + 60 Extra Energy Reserve)
│ . 15PD/15ED to 60PD/60ED Force Field, Real Cost 60
│ . 30" Flight. Real Cost 60
│ . 12d6 EB. Real Cost 60
│ . 4PD to 16 PD Force Wall, Transparent to Energy (+½), Feedback (-1). Real Cost 30
└─ = Force Powers Cost: 96 . . . 60+((60+60+60+30)/10)+(60/4). . . Energy Reserve + (Total of Power Real Costs /2) + Extra Energy Reserve ]
Power Framework Cost: 96

▲ This Power Pool saves 114 points. The Extra Energy Reserve means the character can use Powers with a total Active Point cost of up to 120. As none of the Powers have the Flexible Advantage, if any Power is used, it must be used at its fullest possible Active Point value (including Flight) so the character can use at most two of the above Powers at once.

Power Framework. Concept: Force Powers
┌─[ Force Powers (Power Pool, 120 Energy Reserve (60 Base Energy Reserve + 60 Extra Energy Reserve)
│ . 15PD/15ED to 60PD/60ED Force Field, Flexible (+¾). Real Cost 105 (15 to 60)
│ . 8" to 30" Flight, Flexible (+¾). Real Cost 105 (16 to 60*)
│ . 4d6 to 12d6 EB, Flexible (+¾). Real Cost 105 (15 to 60*)
│ . 4PD to 16 PD Force Wall, Transparent to Energy (+½), Flexible (+¾), Feedback (-1). Real Cost 45 (10 to 40*)
└─ = Force Powers Cost: 156 . . . 60+((105+105+105+45)/10)+(60/4) ]
Power Framework Cost: 111

▲ This Power Pool saves 99 points. The Extra Energy Reserve means the character can use Powers with a total Active Point cost of up to 120. With all the Powers being Flexible, the character can use all four at once, as long as their total Active Points used does not exceed the total Energy Reserve.

Power Framework. Concept: Force Powers
┌─[ Force Powers (Power Pool, 252 Energy Reserve (60 Base Energy Reserve + 212 Extra Energy Reserve)
│ . 15PD/15ED to 60PD/60ED Force Field. Real Cost 60
│ . 30" Flight. Real Cost 60
│ . 12d6 EB. Real Cost 60
│ . 16 PD Force Wall, Transparent to Energy (+½), Feedback (-1). Real Cost 30
└─ = Force Powers Cost: 135 . . . 60+((60+60+60+30)/10)+(212/4)
Power Framework Cost: 135

▲ This Power Pool saves 76 points. The Extra Energy Reserve means the character can use all the Powers at the same time.

Power Framework. Concept: Force Powers
┌─[ Force Powers (Power Pool, 120 Energy Reserve (60 Base Energy Reserve + 212 Extra Energy Reserve)
│ . 1PD/1ED to 60PD/60ED Force Field, Flexible (+1). Real Cost 120 (2 to 60*)
│ . 1" to 30" Flight, Flexible (+1). Real Cost 120 (2 to 60*)
│ . 1d6 to 12d6 EB, Flexible (+1). Real Cost 120 (5 to 60*)
│ . 2PD to 16 PD Force Wall, Transparent to Energy (+½), Flexible (+1), Feedback (-1). Real Cost 60 (5 to 40*)
└─ = Force Powers Cost: 155 . . . 60+((120+120+120+60)/10)+(212/4) ]
Power Framework Cost: 155

▲ This Power Pool saves 55 points, with all the Powers fully Flexible and usable at the same time.

Power Framework. Concept: Shape Changing
┌─[ Shapeshifting (Flexible Power Pool, 120 Energy Reserve (60 Base Energy Reserve + 60 Extra Energy Reserve))
│ . . Shape Shift All Shapes, 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
│ . . Stretching 6", 0 END (+½). Real Cost 45
│ . . Growth rank 6, 0 END (+½), Flexible (+1). Real Cost 75 (0 to 30*)
│ . . Shrinking rank 3, 0 END (+½), Flexible (+1). Real Cost 75 (0 to 30*)
└─ = Shapeshifting Cost: 99 . . . 60+((45+45+75+75)/10)+(60/4) ]
┌─[ Adapt to Form (Instant Variable Pool, Automatic Change, 30 Energy Reserve)
│ . . Any Powers (e.g. Movement Powers) that fits shape, up to a total Real Cost of 30
└─ = Adapt to Form Cost: 60 . . . 30x2 . . . Energy Reserve x2 ]
Power Framework Total Cost: 159

[JmOz]

I had an idea

We get rid of EC's (This is to help balance the getting rid of figured characteristics), replace with a -1/4 lim

Then we merge VPP and MP like this (all slot names need to be looked at)

You buy your reserve, no limitations or advantages may be placed on this 1:1 cost

You then can buy Multi slots, or Ultra slots as per the normal cost (1:5, 1:10), however the "footprint" on the reserve, that is to say how much of the reserve i