Powers Issues -- L-R

[Steve Long]

Hi folx! Here are some thoughts about Powers that begin with L-R that have occurred to me over the years, along with my brief thoughts on them. I’m posting them here to stimulate discussion, but not to limit or restrict it. These aren’t necessarily all the issues about these Powers that could be considered, nor the only thoughts about them. Feel free to post anything here that you think is relevant and reasonably constructive; you don’t have to limit yourself to what I’ve posted.

Regardless of whatever opinion I post on an idea, I’m always willing to be convinced otherwise if you think you can do it. ;) The fact that I’m posting an opinion doesn’t necessarily mean my mind’s made up on an issue; it just indicates my current thinking on the subject.

Periodically I may post other questions and thoughts that occur to me.


Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

Steve’s Thoughts: In the spirit of removing the concept of Figured Characteristics, it would be consistent to remove this “freebie” from Mental Powers. I won’t say I’m totally sold on it, but it’s definitely worth considering.


Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

Steve’s Thoughts: In the spirit of removing the concept of Figured Characteristics, it would be consistent to remove this “freebie” from Mental Defense. I won’t say I’m totally sold on it, but it’s definitely worth considering. At a guess, it was intended to put Mental Defense on a par with PD and ED, both of which are derived from a Primary Characteristic. If we stop doing that for PD and ED, we should stop it for Mental Defense. (See the Characteristics post for the question “Should Mental Defense be a Characteristic?”.)


Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

Steve’s Thoughts: I think so. I wrote a whole HEROglyphs column in DH #38 describing some of the problems I see with this Power, including: you’re paying points for something that Dodge essentially lets you do for free; its effectiveness is based on special effects (deflect thrown, deflect arrows, etc.) rather than a game effect; the basing of Reflection on Deflection causes some problems.

I’m not necessarily saying that any of the ideas in my DH #38 column are the solutions to MD&R’s problems, but I think they need to be solved to make the Power worthwhile.

[JmOz]

One idea I had on Missile Reflection/deflection a while back was to make it based on defence type instead of special effect, so you would buy Physical or Energy or Power, etc. Each for 10 points. I also considered some form of Unified F/X so all magic or all fire powers...

[McCoy]

Could we bring back Regeneration as its own power? Pleasepleasepleaseplease?

[OzMike]

I think that luck as a power needs attention. Perhaps if the probability alternation power is introduced then you can use the mechanics as defined by that and introduce things like No Range, Self Only, 0 End, Persistent to it to make it work ...

... sorry for the pause, the wife came home and I had to do the dishes...

...anyway, over the dishes I was thinking that perhaps there is an existing power that best simulates the minor effects that luck can grant - Change Environment.

I should give that one some thought... hmmm...

[nexus]

Bring back Regeneration as its own power (with the Regrew limb and Resurrection Adders). Clumping it under Aid is cumbersome and somewhat counterintuitive.

[steamteck]

Agreeing with Nexus and McCoy on regeneration here but not that big an issue to me.

[Kdansky]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?
Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

Soooo totally against freebies here. You name the reasons: MD is a figured stat (and a very questionable one at that, since MC and MI and Telepathy already go straight against EGO, they now go against EGO*1.2. Pointless, really. MA is just a sense, everyone else buys their senses too.

Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?
Yep. Deflection is basically 20 points for a ranged adder to the block maneuver. Highly questionable why this is required. Also, as you say: I can define my special effect at creation (and bullet vs thrown has the same cost), and then my enemy cannot deflect it? Eh what? If he takes some limitation (not against special Effect X) that makes sense, but the general case should include all.

[The Main Man]

I still like the alternate Missile Deflection rules from TUEP and I think that they should become the new definitive rules.

On the other hand, maybe Missile Deflection and its ilk could become a Naked Advantage that is applied to Block.

[Kdansky]

Luck: Make the default one of the re-rolling methods or the "add some number to some dice", not the very GM-chooses-method, and possibly some more examples which are not Luck, but "keen senses", "high adrenaline", limited luck (only for blocks) or some-such. I really like reroll/roll fudge systems, because it gives you interesting options all the time. Also make the rules clearer on how often one rolls the luck dice. Could also be a skill which decreases (if you pass your 13- luck roll, it becomes 12-, and you get to reroll whatever you want), something like the Team Reroll in Blood Bowl. (rules free on the net)
I'm a lot for renaming it or even making it a central stat/characteristic. Yes, it's very un-hero, but it's cool! Also, it works well with disadvantages (complications).

I could also take a split up of luck and "reroll power". Edge in Battletech did that. Many systems have it, it works well and is cool.

[Edsel]

I printed off all of Steve's original posts in all of the 6th Edition threads and spent hours reading them last night and thinking. It is amazing how little I came up with to respond with though. However the opinions in this post are based only on what Steve has posted in message #1 of this thread, I haven't been influenced by what others have posted subsequently since I haven't read them yet. I will try to keep my comments brief since there is a hellava lot to read in these discussions.
Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?
No. It makes sense that it should have to be paid for separately.

Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?
No. I should work like other defenses and be bought up from zero.

Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?
No. I have no problem with the current rules.

[Vondy]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

Its an exotic sense group that probably has sub-categories and should be purchased like any other exotic sense.

Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

No. Why is this in the rules again?

Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

I would argue that your blocking at range, but at the same time, the power is currently wonky and a special effect masquerading as a power. It could be expressed as an adder or modifier for other powers (permeable force wall, etc).

[Vondy]

Now, I have two issues.

1) Mental Powers and their effect tables (Ego, Ego+10, Etc).

This strikes me as a really wonky mechanic that tends to make mentalists totally ineffective or giant mind-shredders who seldom fail. There has to be some middle ground that can be found. I don't know how to do this, but I'm really uncomfortable with mental powers as they are currently expressed. I tend to use talents based on detects-senses with opposed rolls for telepathy in heroic games because of it (with resistance instead of mental defense). I've done similar things for mind control.

Now, with that said: I don't propose what I've been doing works for most genres (or mental illusions, which could just be images BOECV or a combination of other powers), but its more streamlined and very effective for pulp, sci-fi and swords and sorcery. It would NOT work for supers or some high-end psionics approaches, but I really do feel the "levels of effect" method needs a serious re-evaluation.

2) Regeneration.

My complaint is not the one you might surmise. I do think regen is a distinct enough application to merit being its own power, but I can live with it as a part of healing. The issue I have with it is the time chart: the time chart isn't really linear, but fakes an exponential progression based on common measures of time. My issue with this is, any slow regen past 1 minute is hard to model precisely, esp. with purchasing dice, without reworking the time chart. Either the time chart needs to be looked at again, or we need some method to easily and quickly model a standardized slow regen that doesn't take a bunch of fiddling. Also, a shorthand for this power would be much appreciated. Its very long to write based on what it does right now.

[The Main Man]

In regards to classes of minds in mental powers, I tend to gauge a character's class of mind depending on how they role-play.

Machine = Dependent on instructions and programming; unable to function without such input.

Animal = Independent, but limited by instincts and characteristic motivations.

Human = Independent and capable of abstract thoughts, like you or me.

Alien = Anything under Machine, above Human, or in between. Bacteria, Plants, and Gods would all be Aliens if properly role-played.

[Chris Goodwin]

Agreeing with Nexus and McCoy on regeneration here but not that big an issue to me.

Agreed with all of the above.

[Edsel]

Could we bring back Regeneration as its own power? Pleasepleasepleaseplease?
I support this. Regeneration is too common of a power in comic book, horror and scifi themes. It ought to be its own separate power.

[misterdeath]

2) Regeneration.

My complaint is not the one you might surmise. I do think regen is a distinct enough application to merit being its own power, but I can live with it as a part of healing. The issue I have with it is the time chart: the time chart isn't really linear, but fakes an exponential progression based on common measures of time. My issue with this is, any slow regen past 1 minute is hard to model precisely, esp. with purchasing dice, without reworking the time chart. Either the time chart needs to be looked at again, or we need some method to easily and quickly model a standardized slow regen that doesn't take a bunch of fiddling. Also, a shorthand for this power would be much appreciated. Its very long to write based on what it does right now.

I've always thought Regeneration should be separate from Aid (before)/Healing (currently), that a good model would be moving the Rec rate up the Time Chart. Unfortunately, that gets wonky for just the reason you mension--The time chart is so non-linear that things get really strange as you move too far up or down it.

So, yeah, a fix to the time chart would make that a viable option to create.

D

[misterdeath]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

Nope. Why should mentalist get a free sense when nobody else does.

Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

Nope. Ego is covered under breakout rolls. Why should it count double?

Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

Yeah, it's a bit unsatisfying the way it stands now, it's Block vs Ranged, with some sort of extra thing/other mechanics tacked on with some spit and bailing wire.

D

[Adventus]

I would like to chime in on Regeneration. There exists 2 mechanics to recovering BODY: Regeneration and Recovery. You already get Body back in recovery every month. So, base Regeneration off of Recovery instead of Healing or Aid. Then it becomes either an advantage or a Limitation based on how fast or slow you make it.

[Andrew Byers]

Bring back Regeneration as its own power (with the Regrew limb and Resurrection Adders). Clumping it under Aid is cumbersome and somewhat counterintuitive.


I definitely agree with this comment. While I know the trend has been to reduce the number of separate powers if they can be built using another power, I think Regeneration is a case where building it using Aid is more cumbersome than its worth.

[Lord Liaden]

Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

Steve’s Thoughts: In the spirit of removing the concept of Figured Characteristics, it would be consistent to remove this “freebie” from Mental Defense. I won’t say I’m totally sold on it, but it’s definitely worth considering. At a guess, it was intended to put Mental Defense on a par with PD and ED, both of which are derived from a Primary Characteristic. If we stop doing that for PD and ED, we should stop it for Mental Defense. (See the Characteristics post for the question “Should Mental Defense be a Characteristic?”.)

FWIW in my games I made Figured Mental Defense one of the "toggles" that distinguish Heroic from Superheroic campaigns. IOW for Heroic games, where the Active Points of Powers tend to be lower, I toggle off Figured MD, so that mentalists in those games will be more effective. OTOH I generally toggle it on for Superheroic games since Mental Powers tend to have much higher AP - in fact, in most cases all characters in such games receive EGO/5 MD for free regardless of whether they purchased separate MD.

[Pattern Ghost]

I know that Regeneration, and generally going back to old ways of doing things, is verboten for discussion.... BUT:

1Body/Turn Regen, with adders (or even Advantages, b/c regenning from death should be pricey) for Regrowing Limbs and From Death, are much simpler than the current system. If streamlining the game and the character sheet is a goal, making Regen its own power again fits in that goal IMO.

Besides, under the current system, 1Body/Turn regen is 8 pts, which is too cheap IMO.

[Chris Goodwin]

I'm totally agreed on everything said about Regeneration.

Steve, if there are no sacred cows, why can't we talk about Regeneration?

[JmOz]

I would like to chime in on Regeneration. There exists 2 mechanics to recovering BODY: Regeneration and Recovery. You already get Body back in recovery every month. So, base Regeneration off of Recovery instead of Healing or Aid. Then it becomes either an advantage or a Limitation based on how fast or slow you make it.

To expand on this and sugest an idea

Regeneration becomes its own power, but mechanicaly somewhat different from what we have seen before.

Base regeneration is a step down on the time chart, so, and I am throwing this out there with out balanceing it so points may be off, for 10 points you would recover your REC in body per week, for 20 points it is per day, 30 points it is every 5 hours, 40 points it is every hour, 50 would be every 20 min, 60 every 5 min, 70 every minute, 80 would be every turn (the maximum allowed without GM approval). Current healer adders would be included and take that long to become effective (In theroy you could buy it at the 0 point level for the adders). So at the 10 point level you will resurect in a week.

[Lord Liaden]

I'm not sure whether Regeneration should go here or on the thread for H, since technically it's a subset of Healing; but since we've gone this far I might as well continue.

The thing that bothers me about Regeneration as a subset of Healing, is not that it attempts to model a specific effect through an elaborate modification of another Power; it's not the only example of that in the system, although perhaps the most involved. It's that to create that effect it has to ignore the default rules for Healing, i.e. the cap on the maximum that can be Healed. I have to question the point of going through a long process to create something by the rules, if you end up bending the rules anyway.

While I think that going back to the old way of buying Regeneration has merit (perhaps including all the Healing-specific Modifiers that apply to Regen), I did experiment with adding a variant of the Cumulative Advantage (+1/2) to the existing build for Regeneration, as a way of accounting for the ability to keep adding BODY until the character is completely Healed.

Interestingly, if you do add that additional Advantage and keep all the other Modifiers, the Real Cost of regenerating 1 BODY per Turn would be 10 points... exactly the same as under 4E. ;)

[BobGreenwade]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?I would say no to both questions (except if Mental Defense is used as a Characteristic).Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?Yes, and your article about this addresses a lot of the problems I've seen, especially its special effects base rather than point or game effects base. Find a good way to include a "catch and return" effect (a sort of "delayed reflection") and I think you'll have something good.

[James Gillen]

I'm not sure whether Regeneration should go here or on the thread for H, since technically it's a subset of Healing; but since we've gone this far I might as well continue.

The thing that bothers me about Regeneration as a subset of Healing, is not that it attempts to model a specific effect through an elaborate modification of another Power; it's not the only example of that in the system, although perhaps the most involved. It's that to create that effect it has to ignore the default rules for Healing, i.e. the cap on the maximum that can be Healed. I have to question the point of going through a long process to create something by the rules, if you end up bending the rules anyway.

I've already gone over this particular power but that's a big issue with HERO 5th in general- to the extent that it has problems, it's the inconsistency created in an attempt to make everything consistent. ;)

JG

[Enforcer84]

I would like to chime in on Regeneration. There exists 2 mechanics to recovering BODY: Regeneration and Recovery. You already get Body back in recovery every month. So, base Regeneration off of Recovery instead of Healing or Aid. Then it becomes either an advantage or a Limitation based on how fast or slow you make it.
I like this a lot. Well said and rep to Adventus!

[Xotl]

1) As posted by someone else years ago:

Life Support: the cost breakdowns are both too high and needlessly complex for poisons & diseases, and the cost problem is compounded in low-point Heroic games. I'd suggest:

1 point: immune to single disease or poison.
3 points: immune to related group of diseases or poisons (i.e. zootoxins, viral infections).
5 points: immune to all poisons.
5 points: immune to all disease.

Edits way after the fact:

2) I would also like to see Missile Deflection renamed to just plain "Deflection" and handled as it is in Ultimate Energy Projector. Between the two changes you get a cleaner power that is completely divorced in all ways from SFX.

3) Adventus' above idea regarding Regeneration seems quite clever. I like it a lot.

[Hugh Neilson]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

No freebie. Saving 12 points on a 60 AP power for giving back a 3 point Sense should answer this in a heartbeat.

Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

Only if MD is a figured characteristic granted to everyone. Remove the freebie.

Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

I think these should be adders applied to the Block maneuver. This would allow for blocking HTH and ranged attacks at the same time.

I'm not sure whether Regeneration should go here or on the thread for H, since technically it's a subset of Healing; but since we've gone this far I might as well continue.

I posted under Healing. I'm OK with regen as separate power or as healing, but the latter must be brought into line with the reuse rules. I note that 1d6 STandard Effect is 3 points, but Regen gets 2, so it's 2/3 of 1d6. It should now pay the appropriate decreased re-use advantage, and benefit from any changes to the Self Only limitation. I'd expect the cost to come in between the current 7 and change, and the old 10.

As posted by someone else years ago:

Life Support: the cost breakdowns are both too high and needlessly complex for poisons & diseases, and the cost problem is compounded in low-point Heroic games. I'd suggest:

1 point: immune to single disease or poison.
3 points: immune to related group of diseases or poisons (i.e. zootoxins, viral infections).
5 points: immune all poisons.
5 points: immune to all disease.

I agree life support is too expensive for most effects. Reducing the cost of "full life support" should be pursued.

[BobGreenwade]

Here's something on Mental Powers that I posted in the discussion on TUM that didn't get into the book even though I got tons of positive remarks for it (as well as +4 Rep, the second most I've ever gotten from a single post). I would have posted it earlier but I'm not quite sure which thread it should go into; I chose this one because most of the Mental Powers are listed in this part of the book, and it would be most often applied to Mental Illusions and Mind Control.

The idea is simple: to represent a continuing-effect Mental Power that always has a particular quality, buy that quality directly with points.

For example, suppose MindStorm has Mind Control, and his targets always remember their actions and think they're normal (+20 on the Mind Control Effects Table). The current way to do that would be to buy an additional 6d6 with Standard Effect, and a Limitation that it only applies to that effect plus whatever other Power Modifiers the base Power has. The way I suggest would give a nice, simple 20-point Adder that slips neatly right into the character sheet. It only has +20 Active Points instead of +30, and accordingly costs 4 END more rather than 6 END (along with other lessened effects on things like RSR), and this can be either a Good Thing or a Bad Thing depending on your POV.

This would, of course, also apply to things like doing STUN and/or BODY with Mental Illusions, making Mind Scan or Telepathy undetectable to the target, and probably even achieving specific levels of effect.

[Opal]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?
Steve’s Thoughts: In the spirit of removing the concept of Figured Characteristics, it would be consistent to remove this “freebie” from Mental Powers. I won’t say I’m totally sold on it, but it’s definitely worth considering.I think that's a spirit that should go back in the bottle. Point savings on 'packages' of abilities that /should/ be closely related are a good idea and should be retained. If they were a bad idea, no one would be playing the game today, it'd've died by 1984 - because such things have always been part of the system.

Things like ECs, limitations, disadvantages, and, yes, figured characteristics and little things like getting Mental Awareness when you have a Mental Power - all make the game better by giving players an impetus to come up with characters that make some sense. Removing such things is going to result in more characters who are just a collection of powers and numbers.


Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?Yes. Once a high-EGO person has developed any mental defense, it should be stronger than that of a low-EGO person.


Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?
Missle Deflection is basically the ability to block ranged attacks. There's nothing wrong with some characters having such an ability, but it can probably be handled much like block. Yes, it would make a little more sense to pay cost based on the mechanics of the attack than on the F/X. Specifically, on the attack roll.

That is, missle deflection should let you to block a ranged OCV vs DCV attack. An adder might let you add attacks that target a hex. A bigger adder, might let you deflect any part of an AE effect entering your hex.

It should otherwise be mechanically identical to block.


Reflection certainly needs to stay, but could be a sepparate power not directly related to missle deflection - it could be based on the power of the attack, for instance. You buy X amount of reflection, it lets you reflect that much BOD worth of attack. If it's exceeded, you still reflect, but only the amount of your reflection - the rest of the attack gets through (much like a FW). Unlike actual defensive powers, you should not be able to abort to Reflection - you'd have to use a saved phase to activate it or have it running as a constant power.

[Blue]

I'm not a big fan of making a post without having some kind of suggestion for fixing it, so I'll make this brief.

I've always had trouble ajudicating Mental powers; primarily Mind Control. Seems to me most of the time I'm splitting hairs at to how inclined somene is and my opinion almost always differs from the players.

What's more, Mind Controls rarely work. I mean, an uber-mentalist can take over people and play them like puppets (if one can play puppets), but there are so many rolls to resist that I basically had to remove some, otherwise a mentalist who successfully attacked and rolled enough dice to get the target to act always had his control broken before the target managed to actually perform the action.

But I really seem to be the exception on these things. And as I say, I don't have a lot of input on how to fix it.

[MicroMike]

Luck: Make this a talent, and remove all the 5th Ed options from it. Those options turned several games into 'crit the big bad in the head and win' cakewalks.

Replace with Hero Points. You could spend a HP to make a reroll, add a temp. +10 to STUN, or something.

Life Support: Just state 'Immune to all Poisons' for 10 pts. or 'Immune to all Diseases' for 10 pts. If a player wants less, make it a Limited Power from -2 to -1/4 and make the player define thier funky exceptions to the power. Listing zootoxins and Rabies, and Alcohol and Common Cold/Flu is contrary to the entire HERO philosophy.

[ajackson]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?
No, it's not really needed.

Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?
Well, I'm tempted to make Mental Blast consistent with other mental powers by saying it's 5 points per die and you subtract Ego from the effect.

Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?
While the existing mechanics aren't terrible, the main way to use deflection in practice is that you put it into your multipower as a deflection slot; deflection is almost never worth using normally because it consumes an attack action, and without a bunch of bonus levels it's no better than a dodge. As for reflection, you have the oddity of being able to reflect unlimited amounts of force with a successful roll; reflection seems like it should be a power related to PD/ED rather than a power resembling Block.

Deflection for yourself should probably be a free everyman maneuver; it's generally comparable to dodging, but occasionally lets you do useful things that can't be done with dodging, such as stepping in front of someone else. The ability to deflect attacks which aren't coming towards you is an advantage. If it should be possible to 'blow through' deflection, give it a slight bonus to the roll, and have it provide some extra defense based on skill or blocking power or something.

[Adventus]

I wish I could take credit for this idea. However, I first saw it posted on Red October by Opal. Welcome back Opal. So you rep should go to her not me.

[ghost-angel]

I'll echo The Main Man in stating that the Missile Deflection/Reflection from UEP should be the new Default Mechanic.

I also, like the others, don't believe that having a Mental Power should get you the Mental Sense for free.

[James Gillen]

Here's something on Mental Powers that I posted in the discussion on TUM that didn't get into the book even though I got tons of positive remarks for it (as well as +4 Rep, the second most I've ever gotten from a single post). I would have posted it earlier but I'm not quite sure which thread it should go into; I chose this one because most of the Mental Powers are listed in this part of the book, and it would be most often applied to Mental Illusions and Mind Control.

The idea is simple: to represent a continuing-effect Mental Power that always has a particular quality, buy that quality directly with points.

For example, suppose MindStorm has Mind Control, and his targets always remember their actions and think they're normal (+20 on the Mind Control Effects Table). The current way to do that would be to buy an additional 6d6 with Standard Effect, and a Limitation that it only applies to that effect plus whatever other Power Modifiers the base Power has. The way I suggest would give a nice, simple 20-point Adder that slips neatly right into the character sheet. It only has +20 Active Points instead of +30, and accordingly costs 4 END more rather than 6 END (along with other lessened effects on things like RSR), and this can be either a Good Thing or a Bad Thing depending on your POV.

This would, of course, also apply to things like doing STUN and/or BODY with Mental Illusions, making Mind Scan or Telepathy undetectable to the target, and probably even achieving specific levels of effect.

Repped.

jg

[Enforcer84]

I wish I could take credit for this idea. However, I first saw it posted on Red October by Opal. Welcome back Opal. So you rep should go to her not me.
The Rec/Regeneration Rule? Consider Opal Repped!

[megaplayboy]

On mental powers, if you're going to keep the existing table, I think one thing should at bare minimum be listed as an optional rule:
Breakout rolls shouldn't be straight EGO rolls, they should be contested rolls, with the target rolling their ego roll against the mentalist's. Note that this doesn't affect the target thresholds the mentalist has to hit to establish whatever level of control/effect, but it is likely going to be more difficult for a non-mentalist target to break out of control/effect. Characters could buy Resistance in order to get breakout roll bonuses, and mentalists could use combat skill levels to add to their rolls to maintain control as well.

Keeping the existing difficulty tables while adding a contested breakout roll would mean that the average mentalist isn't devastatingly more effective, but they are more effective on average with telepathy, mind scan, mental illusions and mind control.

[Vondy]

I would like to chime in on Regeneration. There exists 2 mechanics to recovering BODY: Regeneration and Recovery. You already get Body back in recovery every month. So, base Regeneration off of Recovery instead of Healing or Aid. Then it becomes either an advantage or a Limitation based on how fast or slow you make it.

I started doing this for slow regen characters about a year ago so I wouldn't have to fiddle with the time chart, and because I think the current expression for regeneration is overly complex (and breezy in terms of space on the character sheet). I haven't looked back.

[Opal]

There are no new ideas: When I first posted my Regen variant on RO, someone immediately chimed in, "oh, yeah, I've been doing something like that - it works great!" I think Fuzion may have used a similar aproach, too - either that or yet another person came up with a similar Fuzion variant independently, as well....


Oh, and I posted the full text of it on the boards, so Hero Games owns it! ;)

No reason not to use it...

[Ockham's Spoon]

On Regneration:
I am fine with this as a subset of Healing, but only if it doesn't violate the general Healing rules. But it might be nice, for ease of character building, if there were a sidebar or something that basically said "Once all the advantages and disadvantages are applied, a regeneration power works out to 10 points for 1 BDY/turn" or whatever. I have other gripes with Healing, but I guess I'll post that under the "H" thread.

On Missile Deflection:
Missile deflection should be a combat manuever that anyone can perform, like a Block. Reflection is the power people should have to buy. That said, my complaint with Missile Deflection is that its cost is predicated on the SFX of the attack. Sure it makes sense that it is harder to block bullets than baseballs, but that should be reflected in the cost of the attack, not in the cost of Missile Deflection. Ranged attacks should have an adder cost for projectile, supersonic projectile, and lightspeed "projectile". Those adder costs are essentially penalty skill levels against anyone trying to Missile Deflect. So if you want to be able to deflect laser beams, you better have enough levels with the Missile Deflection manuever to overcome the penalty skill levels it imposes.

[dstarfire]

I agree life support is too expensive for most effects. Reducing the cost of "full life support" should be pursued.

Another vote for re-working life support, specifically the immunities and "safe in ...". First of all, it's an absolute defense, (everybody knows absolutes don't belong in the hero system *L*).

I'd suggest moving it to the talent section as a limited form of defense. This would have the added benefit of basing the cost on the frequency of occurence, which varies quite a bit between genres and even individual campaigns.

[SSgt Baloo]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

It's power with (mostly) "invisible SFX" that can still be be "seen" by it's victims. Delete that "temporary" mental Awareness from the targets and I have no problem with mentalists needing to buy a sense just to use their powers.

Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

See below. Lord Liaden suggested an ideal answer

Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

Steve’s Thoughts: I think so. I wrote a whole HEROglyphs column in DH #38 describing some of the problems I see with this Power, including: you’re paying points for something that Dodge essentially lets you do for free; its effectiveness is based on special effects (deflect thrown, deflect arrows, etc.) rather than a game effect; the basing of Reflection on Deflection causes some problems.

I think others have come up with a number of helpful suggestions. I'd like to see Missile Deflection become an expansion on the "block" maneuver, with missile reflection either becoming its own power (and including a melee-only version), or lumped on top of Missile deflection (I have no problem with either concept.)

FWIW in my games I made Figured Mental Defense one of the "toggles" that distinguish Heroic from Superheroic campaigns. IOW for Heroic games, where the Active Points of Powers tend to be lower, I toggle off Figured MD, so that mentalists in those games will be more effective. OTOH I generally toggle it on for Superheroic games since Mental Powers tend to have much higher AP - in fact, in most cases all characters in such games receive EGO/5 MD for free regardless of whether they purchased separate MD.

Excellent suggestion.

As posted by someone else years ago:

Life Support: the cost breakdowns are both too high and needlessly complex for poisons & diseases, and the cost problem is compounded in low-point Heroic games. I'd suggest:

1 point: immune to single disease or poison.
3 points: immune to related group of diseases or poisons (i.e. zootoxins, viral infections).
5 points: immune to all poisons.
5 points: immune to all disease.

I would like to add my endorsement to simplifying Life Support. I think Xlotl's suggestion has merit. I would also like to see Regeneration restored to its former glory as an independent power. It's just klugy the way regen works in 5E.

[Markdoc]

Life Support: Just state 'Immune to all Poisons' for 10 pts. or 'Immune to all Diseases' for 10 pts. If a player wants less, make it a Limited Power from -2 to -1/4 and make the player define thier funky exceptions to the power. Listing zootoxins and Rabies, and Alcohol and Common Cold/Flu is contrary to the entire HERO philosophy.

Good point - that always struck me as kind of dumb - and it makes no kind of biological sense. I understand Steve wanting to break Life support down into various options (and that was a worthwhile exercise) but the way it's written now is clunky.

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Another vote for re-working life support, specifically the immunities and "safe in ...". First of all, it's an absolute defense, (everybody knows absolutes don't belong in the hero system *L*).

I've never understood this, since life support isn't actually a defence at all. Yes, it's absolute - you get immunity to an environmental effect, but Safe in extreme environments, (heat) offers precisely 0 DEF against a heat blast.

It's like saying that a blind person has absolute defence against Flash (sight group).

cheers, Mark

[nexus]

Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

Steve’s Thoughts: I think so. I wrote a whole HEROglyphs column in DH #38 describing some of the problems I see with this Power, including: you’re paying points for something that Dodge essentially lets you do for free; its effectiveness is based on special effects (deflect thrown, deflect arrows, etc.) rather than a game effect; the basing of Reflection on Deflection causes some problems.

I’m not necessarily saying that any of the ideas in my DH #38 column are the solutions to MD&R’s problems, but I think they need to be solved to make the Power worthwhile.[/QUOTE]

I think Missile Deflection should have a flat cost with limitations based on what it can and can't deflect and possibly a modifier or adder that allows it to be used as a non attack action to distinguish it more from Dodge. A Hand to Hand reflection modifier should be added. Some clarification about whether it's innately Restrainable or not could be added but its not required.

Life Support: I would love it if more granularity was added to this ability. Maybe cost all categories at 5 points so they could be scaled more easily. If you could only resist Terrestrial level environments for example, you'd get a 1 or 2 point cost break depending on the campaign.

Of course this would aggravate the problem of Life Support being so damn expensive. :-/

[Netzilla]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

Heck, I forget my mentalists have it half the time anyway. Besides, mental powers currently offer more than enough freebies (LoS Range Limit, No Range Modifiers, NND, Indirect and so on) that they can afford to take the loss.

Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

I'll say no. I never cared for EGO getting “double-duty” if you buy just a single point of Mental Defense. Ego 30 without MD is 30 vs the various mental powers. 30 with +1 MD is 37. That's a pretty good jump.

Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

I think that if you remove Missile Deflection/Reflection, you're going to end up making Reflection/Redirection effects way more complicated to build than they should be. What I do think needs to be done is that the categories that Missile Deflection works against need to be changed. They should be based off of mechanical attack types (HtH, Ranged, Killing, Normal, NND, AVLD, Mental, Adjustment) rather than special effects.

[eternal_sage]

(cross posted for completeness)

i for one would REALLY like to see the mechanic for Telepathy (and Mind Control, and PRE Attacks) be completely taken out, and replaced with something that doesn't seem quite so out of place.

for instance: these powers still give you a number of d6, and they still get compared to EGO, however if "Normal Damage" from the dice beats EGO you get the most basic effect, if the "Normal BODY Damage" is greater than EGO then you get the advanced effect. Mental Def acts like normal Def in this case (reducing the effect) and could even get a Resistant MD option.

or something different. this is one of my wife's biggest pet peeves, and one she claims makes mentalists nigh unplayable. i agree that the current system makes these powers confusing and they feel tacked on. my two coppers

[ajackson]

Hm. I'm actually tempted by reworking life support so it doesn't give immunity. Right now, there's no easy way to distinguish between the guy who has an air conditioning system that lets him walk around at 500F or so (fire fighter gear) and a guy that can walk around at temperatures of 1 million degrees.

There's something to be said for converting all NND attacks to AVLD attacks (probably vs Power defense; most power defense special effects logically grant some protection from most NND special effects) and treating life support as a bonus to defense (for the environmental immunities, probably +10 defense per point). Poison and disease are odder because total immunity is actually plausible (and in general there's a limit to how low you can go with either pressure or temperature), but just saying 'real-world poisons and diseases don't exceed Xd6' would do the job; if you want a cinematic super-disease that infects rocks, well, it's a superhero game.

[Chris Goodwin]

M is for Mental Powers

Might it be time to retire the separate Mental Powers mechanic? We have ways to build Powers that target ECV rather than DCV, that have Range: Line of Sight, that have No Range Penalty, are Invisible and Indirect, etc.

We could even specify in the descriptions of what are currently the Mental Powers that they target ECV by default, and here's how to buy them to target DCV.

(That might also give us room to drop all of the ____ Defense Powers and replace them with an SFX Defense. You could buy SFX Defense: Mental Powers, SFX Defense: Bright Lights, SFX Defense: Loud Noises, SFX Defense: Poisons and Toxins, and so forth. But that's a separate suggestion and is likely to get a big shout-down.)

[Chris Goodwin]

While I'm on the subject...

How about a slight alteration in how the Mental Powers work? Instead of breakout rolls, they decay at 5 points per Turn, like Adjustment Powers do, and you can buy that rate up (maybe at +1/2 per level). Once they decay below the target's EGO, they wear off. And the target can push his EGO at any time, which counts, and that could be considered the "breakout roll". Mental Powers could then be Healed (perhaps a note that they could be "healed" by the same Mental Power used by someone else, as well as a Healing Power bought appropriately). I wouldn't make them Cumulative by default, though; if you hit someone else with the same Power, you get the most recent roll worth of effect, even if it's less than one you've already used. But it does "erase" any decay that's happened since the first time you used it, if it's more than the current level (just brings it up to whatever you just rolled). You could also buy Mental Powers as Cumulative, and they would work exactly the way you'd expect Cumulative Mental Powers to, given our additional modifications.

[ajackson]

If you set the basic fade rate at 5 points per phase, even +1/4 for slow fade will put high end mind control effects out of reach on most characters.

[Chris Goodwin]

If you set the basic fade rate at 5 points per phase, even +1/4 for slow fade will put high end mind control effects out of reach on most characters.

Per Phase is too much. Per Turn, just like Adjustment Powers.

[ajackson]

Per Phase is too much. Per Turn, just like Adjustment Powers.
Why? One phase of mind control is actually a big deal in a fight.

[Chris Goodwin]

Okay, you're right. So, if we're talking about, say, 12d6 Mind Control, average roll 42.... average non-Mentalist PC has, say, 14 EGO.... we've hit EGO+20 there. Actually 28... so he's got 6 full Phases of being Mind Controlled. But he can push his Ego, to 24.... drops that to 4 Phases. He has to do it at the right time.

Still. Mental Powers are pretty nerfy. Plus I think that if we can reuse mechanics (decay = 5 points per (time increment)), then we should.

[Opal]

Mental Powers have extreme effects, even a single phase of successful mind-control can shift a fight. If you look at how they tend to work in genre, they're usually either shrugged off quickly, broken when the victim is pushed to do something abhorrent, or provide an absolute effect that leaves the victim zombie-ized or otherwise clearly not himself.

The first two are modeled well, the last might be better done with a transform.

In any case, they /need/ to be far less than dependable, at reasonable power levels, because they can have such a disproportionate effect. PC-level mentalists need to be subtle.

[Hugh Neilson]

We have ways to build Powers that target ECV rather than DCV

Ummm...where? BoECV is a kludge that consolidates other abilities.

Now, we SHOULD have rules for conversion of a power that uses OCV to one using OECV, and one targeting DCV to one targeting DECV. It should be possible for them to be separate (I pick up the knife with my psychokinesis, so I toss it based on ECV, but you dodge it in the physical plane, so you use DCV).

[Tonio]

I think that's a spirit that should go back in the bottle. Point savings on 'packages' of abilities that /should/ be closely related are a good idea and should be retained. If they were a bad idea, no one would be playing the game today, it'd've died by 1984 - because such things have always been part of the system.

Things like ECs, limitations, disadvantages, and, yes, figured characteristics and little things like getting Mental Awareness when you have a Mental Power - all make the game better by giving players an impetus to come up with characters that make some sense. Removing such things is going to result in more characters who are just a collection of powers and numbers.


Yes. Once a high-EGO person has developed any mental defense, it should be stronger than that of a low-EGO person.

I wholeheartedly disagree. As I've said in the Characteristics thread (and as I'm sure you've read, hehe), having SFX directly affect game mechanics seems to me a hugely bad idea. The fact that the game has survived with that concept does not make it a good one. "Characters that make some sense" is entirely a subjective idea, and like all subjective issues, should be left up to the players and GM to adjudicate.

Getting Mental Awareness from having any Mental Power, and getting a higher Mental Defense from having a higher EGO, assume certain SFXs and character concepts, which you evidently agree with, but which not everybody might want. Your proposal (and the current system) subtly (or maybe not so subtly?) guide you into certain concepts, rather than freely accepting whichever concept the character builder wants. My proposal (to sum: no freebies) freely accepts all concepts equally, without prejudice, without any benefits to some concepts which were judged by someone to be somehow "better" or "more appropriate".

Whether a character is "just a collection of powers and numbers" has nothing to do with which powers, characteristics, skills, talents, perks, or disadvantages he has (i.e. no mechanical basis), but rather with how they're explained (i.e. concept, backstory, etc.). Consider two characters, both with EB, FF, and Flight. The first one defines his EB as "Fire Blast", his FF as "Shield of Flames", and his Flight as "flying like that Human Torch dude". The second one defines his EB as "I shoot plasma bolts from my eyes, because I'm an alien", his FF as "I'm surrounded by an aura of protection, because I'm a supermage", and his Flight as "the spirits of my ancestors lift me and carry me around". I'm pretty sure you'd call the first character a "solid concept", worthy of cost breaks, and the second one a "collection of powers and numbers", and logically should be more expensive. There are two great problems with that, though. First, for no better reason than difference of opinion and/or lack of imagination, one character will suffer in gameplay, since it'll be less powerful than the other. Second, it's pretty unimaginative to think the second character can't be unified by a great backstory.

If you start handing out free points to people with certain concepts, you squash creativity and variety, two things which are at the core of the HERO System.

On a totally unrelated note, regarding Life Support... I'm not sure immunities should be part of Life Support. What's the relationship between not having to breathe and being immune to poisons? Regarding immunities, again, I think they should be generic and wide-spectrum (i.e. immunity to poisons, immunity to diseases) rather than specific (e.g. immunity to cobra toxin, immunity to Epstein-Barr virus). Not only are specifics impossible to cost appropriately, they're also closely tied to campaign setting: there is no manticore poison in Star HERO, there is no radiation sickness in Fantasy HERO. Either do them generic and wide-spectrum, or give out guidelines for specifics (e.g. Immunity to an "annoying" disease = 1pt, +1pt if it's common).

[ajackson]

Okay, you're right. So, if we're talking about, say, 12d6 Mind Control, average roll 42.... average non-Mentalist PC has, say, 14 EGO.... we've hit EGO+20 there. Actually 28... so he's got 6 full Phases of being Mind Controlled.
Well, being mind controlled at the +0 level, which is rarely a big deal. The exciting stuff usually requires +20 or +30.

[Opal]

I wholeheartedly disagree. As I've said in the Characteristics thread (and as I'm sure you've read, hehe), having SFX directly affect game mechanics seems to me a hugely bad idea. I understand the purist veiwpoint, as I was once a proponent of it, myself. It would be satisfying in a game-desigin-philosphy sense, to have the mechanical aspects of the system so perflectly tuned and fair that they could model any abilty, for any character, in any genre, without reference to the F/X involved or the background and situations in the campaign. I used to say things like "Limitations should exist in a vaccum" because I felt there really /was/ a one 'right value' for any limitation.

It's a wonderful ideal to work towards, but Hero already goes a little farther in that direction than you can go and still have a fun, playable, accessable, and commercially very successful game. It takes a special breed of gamer to really understand, apreciate and enjoy the system, and there just aren't enough of us to make DoJ rich. ;)


Getting Mental Awareness from having any Mental Power, and getting a higher Mental Defense from having a higher EGO, assume certain SFXs and character conceptsYes, they do. They assume innate powers, for instance, which is what a power is until you put a focus or similar limitation on it. Again, while I understand the apeal - the elegance - of taking a power down to it's root axiomatic function, the best policy is to take it down only so far as the most prevelent representations of the power. It makes the game more accessible and easier to play.

Whether a character is "just a collection of powers and numbers" has nothing to do with which powers, characteristics, skills, talents, perks, or disadvantages he has (i.e. no mechanical basis), but rather with how they're explained (i.e. concept, backstory, etc.). In some cases there is a mechanical basis, as well. The game doesn't easily let you buy up defense against KAs without also buying up defense against normal attacks, just for one instance. Strong people who can lift a 100kg object more easily and throw it farther, can also throw thier own 100kg bodies farther (leap). There's actually an awful lot of basic consistency built into the rules. The more of it you take out, the more abstract, less intuitive, less playable, and less accessible the game becomes. It's a trade-off.

Consider two characters, both with EB, FF, and Flight. The first one defines his EB as "Fire Blast", his FF as "Shield of Flames", and his Flight as "flying like that Human Torch dude". The second one defines his EB as "I shoot plasma bolts from my eyes, because I'm an alien", his FF as "I'm surrounded by an aura of protection, because I'm a supermage", and his Flight as "the spirits of my ancestors lift me and carry me around". I'm pretty sure you'd call the first character a "solid concept", worthy of cost breaks, and the second one a "collection of powers and numbers", and logically should be more expensive. Yep. Not only is the first character one that can participate in a group adventure without having to showcase each of those three powers to establish his abilities, thus leaving more time and interest for his fellows, but he's also going to be hampered more consistently and less disruptive to plot lines. His powers will share common limitations that the GM can use against him when it benefits the story or he wants to give another character a chance to shine, and his powers will be drained or suppressed by the right adjustment powers. It would take a lot more to 'check' the powers of the second character - you'd have to get him in a high tech plasma dispersal field, anti-magic shell, and seal off the local ether from the spirit world. And, yeah, that should cost more, because it's a harder character to deal with, both as an advesary, and as a character in a campaign.



On a totally unrelated note, regarding Life Support... I'm not sure immunities should be part of Life Support. What's the relationship between not having to breathe and being immune to poisons? They both have to do with how your body interacts with chemicals? Oxygen is a chemical that typical characters need to breath, if you don't need to breath, you take life support, Phosgene is a chemical that most characters should avoid breathing, if it doesn't bother you, you take Life support. It makes a certain amount of sense. You could split it out, just like Dependence and Susceptibility are split out, though. You could have Life /Support/ only eliminate 'needs' your body has that normals normally have, and 'Immunity' only 'buy off' what amount to zero-point susceptibilities that everyone has. The distinction is arbitrary. Dependence and Susceptibility could be combined, LS could be broken down.

Regarding immunities, again, I think they should be generic and wide-spectrum (i.e. immunity to poisons, immunity to diseases) rather than specific (e.g. immunity to cobra toxin, immunity to Epstein-Barr virus).Certainly. Specific ones should be possible, and examples aren't a bad thing, but the GM would have to decide how 'common' they are to get a cost, just as with many limitations and disads.

[Tonio]

I understand the purist veiwpoint, as I was once a proponent of it, myself. It would be satisfying in a game-desigin-philosphy sense, to have the mechanical aspects of the system so perflectly tuned and fair that they could model any abilty, for any character, in any genre, without reference to the F/X involved or the background and situations in the campaign. I used to say things like "Limitations should exist in a vaccum" because I felt there really /was/ a one 'right value' for any limitation.

It's a wonderful ideal to work towards, but Hero already goes a little farther in that direction than you can go and still have a fun, playable, accessable, and commercially very successful game. It takes a special breed of gamer to really understand, apreciate and enjoy the system, and there just aren't enough of us to make DoJ rich. ;)

My reasons aren't simply "purity", though. In fact, it's mostly "flexibility" and "freedom". I remember having played DC Heroes and while the system wasn't so bad (I remember liking it, back then), I disliked how I couldn't really create a character I'd thought of. Enter HERO (well, Champions, back then)... I instantly fell in love with it, because I could build whatever I wanted! I'd like to keep that, and in fact, enhance it.


Yes, they do. They assume innate powers, for instance, which is what a power is until you put a focus or similar limitation on it. Again, while I understand the apeal - the elegance - of taking a power down to it's root axiomatic function, the best policy is to take it down only so far as the most prevelent representations of the power. It makes the game more accessible and easier to play.

"Most prevalent" may not be clear, though. For starters, it's genre-specific. Additionally, it might not be correct to go with the "most prevalent". A more correct approach would be to cover the most bases, kinda like how you don't design a chair for the most common body type, but rather so that it fits as many people (with differing body types) as possible.

In some cases there is a mechanical basis, as well. The game doesn't easily let you buy up defense against KAs without also buying up defense against normal attacks, just for one instance. Strong people who can lift a 100kg object more easily and throw it farther, can also throw thier own 100kg bodies farther (leap). There's actually an awful lot of basic consistency built into the rules. The more of it you take out, the more abstract, less intuitive, less playable, and less accessible the game becomes. It's a trade-off.

Well, defense against KAs vs defense against normal attacks... false dichotomy. There's a basic concept of "damage" against which you can buy defenses. The fact that KAs go against a subset of that defense is because it's inherently Advantaged (and in case you wonder, I do support eliminating both as separate powers).

The bundling of lifting/throwing capacity with leaping (and hth damage, etc.) is one I disagree with. Lifting/throwing I might live with, but I wouldn't mind seeing them separate, either.

I must insist, though, that that "basic consistency" you speak of is highly subjective, and can, in fact, be an inconsistency in many situations. And HERO is designed to have abstract mechanics; it's part of the core. Moving away from that, whether it has advantages or not, is moving away from the HERO system.

Yep. Not only is the first character one that can participate in a group adventure without having to showcase each of those three powers to establish his abilities, thus leaving more time and interest for his fellows, but he's also going to be hampered more consistently and less disruptive to plot lines. His powers will share common limitations that the GM can use against him when it benefits the story or he wants to give another character a chance to shine, and his powers will be drained or suppressed by the right adjustment powers. It would take a lot more to 'check' the powers of the second character - you'd have to get him in a high tech plasma dispersal field, anti-magic shell, and seal off the local ether from the spirit world. And, yeah, that should cost more, because it's a harder character to deal with, both as an advesary, and as a character in a campaign.

The first part speaks to purely narrative concerns; game mechanics shouldn't affect that.

As for the second part, the inherent disadvantages in having a common SFX for all your powers is balanced by the inherent advantages (being faced by a "Drain all Fire Powers" vs being hit with an "Aid all Fire Powers"). I don't think there should be a cost break for what's effectivly no limitation. Yes, it would take more to "check" the 2nd guy's powers, but it would also take more to boost them.

They both have to do with how your body interacts with chemicals. Oxygen is a chemical that typical characters need to breath, if you don't need to breath, you take life support, Phosgene is a chemical that most characters should avoid breathing, if it doesn't bother you, you take Life support. It makes a certain amount of sense. You could split it out, just like Dependence and Susceptibility are split out, though. You could have Life /Support/ only eliminate 'needs' your body has that normals normally have, and 'Immunity' only 'buy off' what amount to zero-point susceptibilities that everyone has. The distinction is arbitrary. Dependence and Susceptibility could be combined, LS could be broken down.

I think that's reaching... I could just as easily and logically claim that Life Support should include PD, since that's just how my body interacts with chemicals (obvious for chemical-based attacks, but even physical attacks have substance, and are therefor "chemicals").

I don't have a suceceptibility to Energy Blasts, just like I don't have one to poisons.

Dependency and Suceptibility could be folded, though. Dependency is just Suceptibility to the lack of something.

Certainly. Specific ones should be possible, and examples aren't a bad thing, but the GM would have to decide how 'common' they are to get a cost, just as with many limitations and disads.

Yup, and that's a good thing, I think. The concept (variable costs depending on frequency in campaign) is seen elsewhere; I think it's appropriate here.

[Opal]

My reasons aren't simply "purity", though. In fact, it's mostly "flexibility" and "freedom". I'm not going to argue with you about what your reasons really are, but, I'd ask you to stop and think: is there anything you really /can't/ do right now, because of the way the system is? Or is it that you find it kludgy or inellegant that some concepts are easier to build than others?

"Most prevalent" may not be clear, though. For starters, it's genre-specific. Mental powers work pretty similarly across genres. The will of the attacker and defender are generally key, for instance. They rarely produce blatantly visible effects (more often signs in the victims behavior - even in comics where they're illustrated, it's for the benefit of the reader, like the wavy lines of Spidey's danger sense). There are differences, certainly, so we have limitations and advantages to customize the powers. But, you need a starting point, and that point will always be arbitrary. Why not arbitrarily set it where it makes building characters easier for the most common archetypes and genre bits. A genre that handles something differently or more detailed can be addressed in it's own book.

Additionally, it might not be correct to go with the "most prevalent". A more correct approach would be to cover the most bases, A good point. With Hero, it is much easier to buy a power that does more than you want, and use open-ended limitations to customize it down to what you want. That aproach is also good for balance, if the powers in question have Apts that are consistent with the rest of the game.

Well, defense against KAs vs defense against normal attacks... false dichotomy. There's a basic concept of "damage" against which you can buy defenses. The fact that KAs go against a subset of that defense is because it's inherently Advantaged (and in case you wonder, I do support eliminating both as separate powers).

The bundling of lifting/throwing capacity with leaping (and hth damage, etc.) is one I disagree with.How does that bundling restrict you from building the character you want, though? You just buy STR, and limit-away whatever aspect you don't want. While, most concepts, where STR acts about like STR does in most dramatic paradigms, simply buy STR, instead of buying multiple closely related powers.

I must insist, though, that that "basic consistency" you speak of is highly subjective. And HERO is designed to have abstract mechanics; it's part of the core. Frankly, the level of abstraction you like in a game is subjective, too. Hero already is /more/ the way you like it, than the way most gamers like it (most gamers don't play Hero, afterall).

Moving away from that, whether it has advantages or not, is moving away from the HERO system.Currently, Hero has a level of abstraction, yes, but it does not completely divorce F/X and mechanics, and it does have many of it's powers and mechanics designed to fascilitate familiar archetypes and classic bits from certain genres (or common among multiple genres). Moving it to be more abstract is changing it, just as moving towards being less abstract would be.

[Scott Destroyer]

Hi there,

My thoughts on Steve's list:

Free Mental Awareness - Get rid of it.
Free Mental Defense points from EGO - Get rid of it.
Change Missile Deflection and Reflection - some changes probably inevitable; Reflection in particular problematic in most game systems I've seen it in.


On other issues:


Return of Regeneration - to me, unnecessary with proper changes to other Adjustment Powers; sorry McCoy... :)
Luck - I'd probably leave as-is, even if some other probability-manipulation power debuted, UNLESS a "hero point" system were added to the game.
Mental Powers and effects - I'd leave Mental Powers as-is with the massive exception of the Breakout Roll. It's nerfed mentalists hard, with no adjustment at all in the point costs of Mental Powers. I'd not want it to be eliminated entirely, but I do think the roll should be Contested and/or made at an additional penalty equal to the amount by which the mentalist succeeded on his ECV Attack Roll. Classes of minds might be clarified, too; I think all humanoid fantasy races and aliens with psychology even remotely similar to human should count as Human; Alien should be reserved for non-humanoid or truly alien minds (Palainians, Hortas, Elder Worms, etc.). BOECV is a seperate issue I'll probably get around to in the Advantages thread.
Adders for +X results for Mental Powers - Sounds good, but in addition to the current rules rather than in place of them, since it eliminates chance of failure. In fact, one could do something very similar now, with the Standard Effect Rule.
Life Support - Seems OK as-is, though the proposed changes seem OK too.

[Hugh Neilson]

Return of Regeneration - to me, unnecessary with proper changes to other Adjustment Powers; sorry McCoy... :)

Although I'm OK with the present model, the various threads propose to retain a number of powers which could be built with other powers for simplicity and intuitiveness. It seems to me that Regeneration is a common enough ability in the source material to justify this type of treatment. Perhaps "not going back to a prior edition's approach" as another sacred cow that needs to become hamburger.

[BobGreenwade]

Adders for +X results for Mental Powers - Sounds good, but in addition to the current rules rather than in place of them, since it eliminates chance of failure. In fact, one could do something very similar now, with the Standard Effect Rule.I probably should point out that I intended for it to be this way (an additional option rather than a replacement for what's there now).

[Zephrosyne]

Well, I don't have anything to add to the areas you mentioned that haven't already been suggested or opined on by someone else. However, can you do something with Power Defense. The power just seems entirely too catch-all. It was almost like "this covers whatever is left after Physical Defense, Energy Defense, Mental Defense, and Flash Defense." I don't have a solution or anything remotely resembling a better idea. I just wanted to give you my opinion.

[rjcurrie]

Well, I don't have anything to add to the areas you mentioned that haven't already been suggested or opined on by someone else. However, can you do something with Power Defense. The power just seems entirely too catch-all. It was almost like "this covers whatever is left after Physical Defense, Energy Defense, Mental Defense, and Flash Defense." I don't have a solution or anything remotely resembling a better idea. I just wanted to give you my opinion.

I've always viewed Power Defense as how well the body (or object) resists being changed. Just my point of view.

[Tonio]

Gah... the quoting got all mangled here. Some of that is mine, some is yours. =/

Anyway, I was gonna reply to some of this, but decided against it. I don't feel good about arguing this decoupling issue across multiple threads! :)

I'm not going to argue with you about what your reasons really are, but, I'd ask you to stop and think: is there anything you really /can't/ do right now, because of the way the system is? Or is it that you find it kludgy or inellegant that some concepts are easier to build than others?

Mental powers work pretty similarly across genres. The will of the attacker and defender are generally key, for instance. They rarely produce blatantly visible effects (more often signs in the victims behavior - even in comics where they're illustrated, it's for the benefit of the reader, like the wavy lines of Spidey's danger sense). There are differences, certainly, so we have limitations and advantages to customize the powers. But, you need a starting point, and that point will always be arbitrary. Why not arbitrarily set it where it makes building characters easier for the most common archetypes and genre bits. A genre that handles something differently or more detailed can be addressed in it's own book.

A good point. With Hero, it is much easier to buy a power that does more than you want, and use open-ended limitations to customize it down to what you want. That aproach is also good for balance, if the powers in question have Apts that are consistent with the rest of the game.

Well, defense against KAs vs defense against normal attacks... false dichotomy. There's a basic concept of "damage" against which you can buy defenses. The fact that KAs go against a subset of that defense is because it's inherently Advantaged (and in case you wonder, I do support eliminating both as separate powers).

How does that bundling restrict you from building the character you want, though? You just buy STR, and limit-away whatever aspect you don't want. While, most concepts, where STR acts about like STR does in most dramatic paradigms, simply buy STR, instead of buying multiple closely related powers.

Frankly, the level of abstraction you like in a game is subjective, too. Hero already is /more/ the way you like it, than the way most gamers like it (most gamers don't play Hero, afterall).

Currently, Hero has a level of abstraction, yes, but it does not completely divorce F/X and mechanics, and it does have many of it's powers and mechanics designed to fascilitate familiar archetypes and classic bits from certain genres (or common among multiple genres). Moving it to be more abstract is changing it, just as moving towards being less abstract would be.





The first part speaks to purely narrative concerns; game mechanics shouldn't affect that.

As for the second part, the inherent disadvantages in having a common SFX for all your powers is balanced by the inherent advantages (being faced by a "Drain all Fire Powers" vs being hit with an "Aid all Fire Powers"). I don't think there should be a cost break for what's effectivly no limitation. Yes, it would take more to "check" the 2nd guy's powers, but it would also take more to boost them.



I think that's reaching... I could just as easily and logically claim that Life Support should include PD, since that's just how my body interacts with chemicals (obvious for chemical-based attacks, but even physical attacks have substance, and are therefor "chemicals").

I don't have a suceceptibility to Energy Blasts, just like I don't have one to poisons.

Dependency and Suceptibility could be folded, though. Dependency is just Suceptibility to the lack of something.



Yup, and that's a good thing, I think. The concept (variable costs depending on frequency in campaign) is seen elsewhere; I think it's appropriate here.

[Tonio]

I've always viewed Power Defense as how well the body (or object) resists being changed. Just my point of view.

Yeah, I think the problem with Power Defense is its name. Change it to "Adjustment Defense" or something.

[Opal]

Gah... the quoting got all mangled here. Some of that is mine, some is yours. =/Sorry 'bout that. Fixed.

[SAVeira]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

Yes. Never really believed in this "freebie".


Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

Yes, unless you end Figured Characteristics. If PD & ED stay the same, then so should MD. Oh and it really should be a Characteristic.


Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

Yes. As for how, I am not sure.

[dsatow]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

I wouldn't mind this. Nothing else really does this. I have EB fire powers, it doesn't give me IR for free. And the sense is cheap.


Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

I think so. Too many people generally buy down thier ego because it not "useful".


Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

Personally, I think if you give it an advantage to use it without the half phase delay but still treat it as an action (making it like block) it would be cooler. I'd give the advantage a 1/2 advantage.

[Tech]

Multiform. I've read so many threads/debates/etc about how it's broken, the cost isn't quite right, it costs too little (to which I agree). I've read through the Ultimate Metamorph and whereas it goes into some details, it is merely adding it's suggestions and ideas based upon a power which doesn't feel solidly built. I do believe the power is a godsend and is needed. However, the power seems to be in it's it's infancy and has room to grow and change.

[The Main Man]

Perhaps Multiform (and Duplication for that matter) should be folded into Summon.

I agree that Mental Awareness should not be free but Mental Defense should get free EGO or else make it cheaper.

[James Gillen]

Although I'm OK with the present model, the various threads propose to retain a number of powers which could be built with other powers for simplicity and intuitiveness. It seems to me that Regeneration is a common enough ability in the source material to justify this type of treatment. Perhaps "not going back to a prior edition's approach" as another sacred cow that needs to become hamburger.

Some cows are more sacred than others. ;)

JG

[Sean Waters]

Class of mind idea:

1. You have to define your class of mind when you build the character. The default is 'Human'

2. There should be a number of classes of mind defined for every game: Animal, Machine, Human, Alien, for example. You can have more, or less. Up to you.

3. In a given campaign all mental powers affect all classes of mind and all defences apply to all attacks from any class of mind.

4. 'Only v attacks from the X class of mind' as a limitation on defence varies. in a standard campaign where the most common attacker will be a human class, the following limitations apply:

X = Human -1/4
X = Alien or animal or machine = -1
X = Human + any other class = -0
X = 2 non human classes = -1/2
X = 3 non-human classes = -1/4

These values may vary with campaign depending on relative frequency of classes of mind with mental powers.

5. 'Only to affect the X class of mind' as a limitation on attacks works with similar values.

That way we still have a class of mind mechanic, but everyone has to pay for defences - you just get a discount in appropriate situations. If you are defining and building an alien charcter you should seriously think about mental defences against non-alien mental attacks. You don't get freebies, but you can get appropriate cost breaks.

[Pteryx]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

Steve’s Thoughts: In the spirit of removing the concept of Figured Characteristics, it would be consistent to remove this “freebie” from Mental Powers. I won’t say I’m totally sold on it, but it’s definitely worth considering.

Mental Awareness is cheap enough that I don't care either way.

Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

I feel you should get EGO/5 Mental Defense (or 2 Mental Defense, if you remove Figured) for free without having to jump through the hoop of buying another point of it.

Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

I'd like it if it were just Deflection & Reflection -- no "Missile" attached. You can choose between Melee, Ranged, and Mental, and also between Physical and Energy for the former two.

Powers not listed: I'd like it if the rules for Mental Powers were written more clearly and engagingly. I found them more obtuse than the rest of the book. -- Pteryx

[Doctor Agenda]

Immunity to All Terrestrial Diseases should be just Immunity to all Disease, even against space cooties. You can always come up with new biological hazards (what about interdimensional cooties?), at some point you should be able to say you've got Immunity to Disease covered, especially since you can always just say Immunity to All Disease doesn't work against these particular interdimensional space cooties. Just make them NND interdimensional space cooties that you have to have 10 points of Power/Adjustment Defense or maybe at least a 13 Ego to be immune to, if you REALLY want to 'get at' the person who wants their character to be immune to all diseases instead of just terrestrial ones. Why should the default for extraterrestrial diseases be that they bypass superhumanly robust immune systems anyway? We may not have evolved to stop them, but they didn't evolve to attack us either, normally it should be a wash (he says, apologizing for bringing up a topic as speculative as exoimmunology) except for GM Specials. Frankly I've never been in a game where Immunity to Disease was all that useful in the first place, apparently there are not many GMs who like to inflict diseases on PCs. When it does come up, 10 points spent on being immune to disease should cover you. Same goes for extraterrestrial or interdimensional poisons. If you don't want Immunity to work against them, just don't let it.

[Vondy]

Immunity to All Terrestrial Diseases should be just Immunity to all Disease, even against space cooties. You can always come up with new biological hazards (what about interdimensional cooties?), at some point you should be able to say you've got Immunity to Disease covered, especially since you can always just say Immunity to All Disease doesn't work against these particular interdimensional space cooties. Just make them NND interdimensional space cooties that you have to have 10 points of Power/Adjustment Defense or maybe at least a 13 Ego to be immune to, if you REALLY want to 'get at' the person who wants their character to be immune to all diseases instead of just terrestrial ones. Why should the default for extraterrestrial diseases be that they bypass superhumanly robust immune systems anyway? We may not have evolved to stop them, but they didn't evolve to attack us either, normally it should be a wash (he says, apologizing for bringing up a topic as speculative as exoimmunology) except for GM Specials. Frankly I've never been in a game where Immunity to Disease was all that useful in the first place, apparently there are not many GMs who like to inflict diseases on PCs. When it does come up, 10 points spent on being immune to disease should cover you. Same goes for extraterrestrial or interdimensional poisons. If you don't want Immunity to work against them, just don't let it.

I think the issue here is to abstract it. Instead of defining the level with actual diseases or groups of diseases, it should be defined by how comprehensive it is for the campaign in question. For instance: 10 Points = Total Immunity; 8 Points = Near Total Immunity (i.e., all terrestrial diseases in a campaign where alien diseases are rare (or may only come up as a plot device once or twice)).

[Doctor Agenda]

I think the issue here is to abstract it. Instead of defining the level with actual diseases or groups of diseases, it should be defined by how comprehensive it is for the campaign in question. For instance: 10 Points = Total Immunity; 8 Points = Near Total Immunity (i.e., all terrestrial diseases in a campaign where alien diseases are rare (or may only come up as a plot device once or twice)).

That sounds reasonable. It WAS fairly reasonable as is until Galactic Champions came out, but something you can tailor to your campaign would be an improvement. Admittedly, I've never been in a game where the Galactic Champions Life Support rules were used or were an issue.

In my own games I once used malaria as a possible hazard in a Pulp setting, and once used a villain with disease powers in a Champions setting so the player would get some use out of the points they spent on being immune to disease. I also threw in a villain with aging attacks once for an immortal character for the same reason. I probably wouldn't have used them if there wasn't a player who spent points in those areas. Incidentally, I also go out of my way to kill characters with the Resurrection option at least once. :)

[SSgt Baloo]

... Incidentally, I also go out of my way to kill characters with the Resurrection option at least once. :)

Why, how thoughtful! :eg:

[Andrew_A]

Originally posted by Eternal Sage
i for one would REALLY like to see the mechanic for Telepathy (and Mind Control, and PRE Attacks) be completely taken out, and replaced with something that doesn't seem quite so out of place.

for instance: these powers still give you a number of d6, and they still get compared to EGO, however if "Normal Damage" from the dice beats EGO you get the most basic effect, if the "Normal BODY Damage" is greater than EGO then you get the advanced effect. Mental Def acts like normal Def in this case (reducing the effect) and could even get a Resistant MD option.

or something different. this is one of my wife's biggest pet peeves, and one she claims makes mentalists nigh unplayable. i agree that the current system makes these powers confusing and they feel tacked on. my two coppers


One possible solution to "fixing" the Mental Powers problem would be to treat Mental Powers just like Images. Basically, you make your attack roll and they resist with an Ego roll. The target would get bonuses depending on how powerful the effect was and the more points spent on the power, the harder it is to resist. If you wanted to make the fight less certain, you could use Megaplayboy's suggestion and make it a contested roll; the attacker's Ego vs. the deffender's.

This would make Mental Powers a little simpler and make low powered/high Ego Mentalists a little scarier. They would be much more effective against mooks, while the important villains would have high Egos anyway. Besides, if you make Ego cheaper (as proposed in the Characteristics thread) this rules change would allow Mentalists to remain deadly.

[CTaylor]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

Yes.

Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

If you made mental defense a stat, this wouldn't be an issue, and I'd prefer that solution.

Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

I'm fine with the system as is, but I'd add this:

There's no reflection power in the game and there should be. It's part of the source material in several different genres and a horrific pain in the patootie to build in Hero.

[Doctor Agenda]

Why, how thoughtful! :eg:

I try. It's especially dramatic if the other players don't know the hero has a get out of death free card...they're likely to throw something when they find out, though!

[PhilFleischmann]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?
No. And there are good genre/sorce material reasons for removing this freebie. True, most superhero mentalists have Mental Awareness, but this isn't the case in other genres. A fantasy wizard might have a fear spell, or a charm spell, or an all-purpose mind control spell, but that doesn't mean he automatically senses when those or other mental spells are cast by others in the area. A Mental Power is not always an ability that is "native" to the persons mind, but could be a spell (for example) that is called forth only when the character wants to use it.

Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?
Campaign dependent. Toolkit, remember? It's not just a toolkit for building characters, but for building worlds and games. As a default, in most genres, it probably shouldn't. But in psi-heavy games, of just about any genre, it could. Leave it up to the GM. And give some "default" advice for various types of games.

[PhilFleischmann]

To expand on this and sugest an idea

Regeneration becomes its own power, but mechanicaly somewhat different from what we have seen before.

Base regeneration is a step down on the time chart, so, and I am throwing this out there with out balanceing it so points may be off, for 10 points you would recover your REC in body per week, for 20 points it is per day, 30 points it is every 5 hours, 40 points it is every hour, 50 would be every 20 min, 60 every 5 min, 70 every minute, 80 would be every turn (the maximum allowed without GM approval). Current healer adders would be included and take that long to become effective (In theroy you could buy it at the 0 point level for the adders). So at the 10 point level you will resurect in a week.
I wouldn't mind Regen becoming a separate power again, but the 4th Ed price was too high, and so is the above cost. I think the 5th Ed price is about right at 7.2727...

But 10 points for REC/Week is way too much. 80 points for REC/turn is probably about right. You've got a linear cost for an exponential benefit. How 'bout like this:

80 points for REC/Turn
40 points for REC/minute
20 points for REC/5 Minutes
10 points for REC/20 Minutes
5 points for REC/hour
3 points for REC/5 hours
2 points for REC/day
1 point for REC/week

That seems a little more appropriate for the utility, IMO. Remember that anything less than REC/minute is not going to be useful in combat. And many combats will be less than a minute.

[Opal]

80 pts for per turn seems excessive. Would it really be better than 3/4 damage reduction or a 30/30 FF?

BOD damage is serious, of course, but it's pretty cheap to prevent, and BOD isn't all that expensive, either.

I like 5 pts per level on the time chart, with various adders.

REC/recover action, per phase, or per segment, OTOH, could rightly be quite expensive.

[PhilFleischmann]

80 pts for per turn seems excessive. Would it really be better than 3/4 damage reduction or a 30/30 FF?
Good point. On further reflection, you're right. 80 points is too much.

I like 5 pts per level on the time chart, with various adders.
The problem with a fixed cost per level on the time chart is that it will never be balanced at all levels. It will always be either too cheap at REC/turn or too expensive at REC/week. At 5/level, that's still 10 points for REC/day, which is still not useful enough for 10 points. 25 points for REC/20 minutes is way too much for an out-of-combat regeneration power.

[CTaylor]

I would like to see Regenerate start at per phase rather than per turn. Make it really expensive if you must, but it's pretty much a non issue in combat as is, and out of combat is healing fast really a big issue for anyone?

[Vondy]

Multiform. I've read so many threads/debates/etc about how it's broken, the cost isn't quite right, it costs too little (to which I agree). I've read through the Ultimate Metamorph and whereas it goes into some details, it is merely adding it's suggestions and ideas based upon a power which doesn't feel solidly built. I do believe the power is a godsend and is needed. However, the power seems to be in it's it's infancy and has room to grow and change.

One option: do it with a VPP or EC. One power is shapeshift, with the other powers being determined as needed from the VPP, or as slots in the EC.

[Vondy]

I would like to see Regenerate start at per phase rather than per turn. Make it really expensive if you must, but it's pretty much a non issue in combat as is, and out of combat is healing fast really a big issue for anyone?

Some of this is narrative style. It can be important if players are able to break off the combat for a minute or two, or if both sides are in circumstances or a state of mind that dictate caution (and thus taking time to pinpoint, out-maneuver their opponents. The actual style of combat that comes out isn't one that sits well with a let of media, let alone reality. Another thing to consider is how much non-combat time is covered in a session. Characters with regeneration will typically be up and running within minutes of getting otherwise mortally wounded. That can impact the narrative tempo of the game and how events unfold. Even a somewhat slower regen (a few hours) can have those kinds of effects. Not everything that is important happens in combat.

[CTaylor]

While that's all true, the mechanics matter as well, and regeneration that heals far too slowly to actually make a difference in combat isn't really worth the points for bad guys in lethal games. It's just a flavor issue, and I can do that with GM descriptions without worrying about buying the powers.

[James Gillen]

One option: do it with a VPP or EC. One power is shapeshift, with the other powers being determined as needed from the VPP, or as slots in the EC.

That's how I do it.

JG

[CTaylor]

I built my metamorph guy with a multiform-only Variable Power Pool. Technically the rules say "don't," but that lets you make "animal man" who can shift into any animal in the book, with a book of animals nearby. Anyone up to x power level, he can be.

[GamePhil]

Cross-posting for your consumption.

This is where a Manipulation mechanic would resolve some issues.

New Power Discussion: Manipulation

Just some thoughts about what a Manipulation Power would need:
Effective Number Of Limbs: Pretty self-explanatory, however some creatures might grow new limbs at will or have energy manipulation powers that take on characteristics of limbs. Currently, the cost is a flat 5 for any number of limbs, and that may still be a good upper limit depending on other factors.
Fineness: Say, Very Clumsy to Very Fine. Very Clumsy might work like a Side Effect, that the character does STR damage to things he tries to manipulate, while Very Fine is finer than human hands, possibly giving a small bonus to some actions.
Reach: How far away you can manipulate objects.
Independence: How much limbs can act independently of what the other limbs are doing. This might allow different limbs to do different Combat Maneuvers to different targets, for example, if bought high enough.

A write-up like this might go so far as to replace Telekinesis, if Reach could be made far enough, in which case it might also need STR. Not sure yet exactly how that would work, though.

So, a human would start with 2 limbs with Fine Manipulation and 3 (including the head) with Average Manipulation, generally with a 2m Reach and average Independence. This would cost no points, much like Senses. If the Power were written up, I'm imagining this would cost between 5 and 10 points for the human starting ability.

[Sketchpad]

Return of Regeneration - to me, unnecessary with proper changes to other Adjustment Powers; sorry McCoy... :)
I kind of like Healing ... but then, I usually used simplified healing for superhero games and BODY healing for heroic games. Just always seems that Sim. Healing is more Superheroic in nature ... allowing players to emulate many regenerating heroes.

Luck - I'd probably leave as-is, even if some other probability-manipulation power debuted, UNLESS a "hero point" system were added to the game.

I think the rules that Scott uses in Gestalt are a better representation of Luck and could be easily adapted as a mainstay.

[Opal]

A write-up like this might go so far as to replace Telekinesis, if Reach could be made far enough, in which case it might also need STR. Not sure yet exactly how that would work, though.Sounds like it might replace Stretching. It could be an adder to TK, I suppose.

[Kagetatsu]

Perhaps Multiform (and Duplication for that matter) should be folded into Summon.
Not sure about that. The main thing wrong with Multiform, surely, is that only one form pays the cost. And you never have to play that form.

[Mini-Nukette]

Suggestion for Multiform:

Transform Self
Type: Standard Power/Body-Affecting Power
Duration: Persistent
Range: Self
Costs END: No
Cost: 5 CP for every Character Point in the alternate form

The character can change his original form into one or more alternate forms. Each alternate form costs 5 CP for every Character Point it is built with (including points from Disadvantages).
Alternate forms gain a Transform Self Power for 0 CP which enables the return to the original form. Additionally, they may take a Transform Self Power for a set 5 CP each for one or more of the other alternate forms that the character may have taken. This enables the character to change to those alternate forms without first needing to return to their original shape.
Changing form requires a Half Phase. Any STUN and BODY damage taken, and END used, are not lost and carry over to the next form.

For example, Swift Owl is a shaman who can transform himself into a white winter owl and a wolf (his player took Transform Self: White Winter Owl, and Transform Self: Wolf). Swift Owl's alternate owl and wolf forms gain Transform Self: Original Form for free letting him turn back into a human. When building the alternate forms, Swift Owl's player can spend 5 CP on either or both enabling him to transform from Owl to Wolf and/or vice versa.

[Doctor Agenda]

Good point. On further reflection, you're right. 80 points is too much.


The problem with a fixed cost per level on the time chart is that it will never be balanced at all levels. It will always be either too cheap at REC/turn or too expensive at REC/week. At 5/level, that's still 10 points for REC/day, which is still not useful enough for 10 points. 25 points for REC/20 minutes is way too much for an out-of-combat regeneration power.

It seemed to work pretty good at 10 points per Bod per Turn. It's a steady rate, so it's balanced at all levels. If it's too expensive, change it to 5 points per Bod per Turn. Moving it down the time chart makes it inexpensive enough that it gets down to a point or two quickly, which is appropriate for the flavor trait Regen becomes at the per Day or per Week level.

[The Main Man]

Not sure about that. The main thing wrong with Multiform, surely, is that only one form pays the cost. And you never have to play that form.
Perhaps Reversion should be built into Multi-form to balance that issue.

Another thing that I got to thinking about (check the time of this post when reading this however) is what if Missile Deflection were turned into either a Martial Maneuver or an Optional Maneuver?

[Hugh Neilson]

Another thing that I got to thinking about (check the time of this post when reading this however) is what if Missile Deflection were turned into either a Martial Maneuver or an Optional Maneuver?

I'd prefer making it a series of adders to the Block (or Martial Block) maneuver. "Block ranged attacks"; "Reflect attacks blocked at attacker"; "Reflect attacks blocked at any target within attack's range".

[The Main Man]

I'd prefer making it a series of adders to the Block (or Martial Block) maneuver. "Block ranged attacks"; "Reflect attacks blocked at attacker"; "Reflect attacks blocked at any target within attack's range".

That does make more sense.

I picture it being either a skill or a talent that must specify whether it affects energy or physical ranged attacks, but at the final level it affects both.

[CTaylor]

Not sure about that. The main thing wrong with Multiform, surely, is that only one form pays the cost. And you never have to play that form.

How about an adder to each form 5 points for each form you can shift into from that one?

[casualplayer]

Might not hear this often but please nerf or eliminate Mental Illusions. I would like it to be essentially Images based on ECV, IPE to everything but Sense/Detect Mental Powers. Any damage dealing or Darkness/Flash simulating related abilities should be represented with additional power buys linked to the Mental Illusions power. As the power is currently constructed, either you run roughshod over the game or the GM neuters you because of the vagueness of the power description.

I would like to see REC become the method for determing how quickly diminished characteristics return to benchmark and both Healing and Regen turned into a REC Aid or just modified REC, similar to what was suggested before. Go Opal!

Missile Deflection is that pesky 100% Damage Reduction RSR and I sure would like it jettisoned or modified into something scalable. Deflecting arrows should not necessarily mean I can deflect both Robin Hood's and Artemis' shots unless a proportionate amount of points was invested.

I would like to see environmental damage defined and characters buy defenses able to blunt or withstand it rather than continue with the scurrilous nature of Life Support. Most environmental damage is KAs and Drains so rDEF and Power DEF should be sufficient, maybe with an italicised power descriptor Life Support.

Anything that encourages sell-back is munchkin-nip and should be eliminated from the game and that especially includes free Mental Awareness.

Everything but Ego Attack falls into this alphabet range (and Ego Attack will too after you rename it) so here is where I ask that you please remove the Class of Minds handicap from mental powers. It allows character background to act as defense, which is the slipperiest of slopes.

[Chris Goodwin]

Might not hear this often but please nerf or eliminate Mental Illusions. I would like it to be essentially Images based on ECV, IPE to everything but Sense/Detect Mental Powers. Any damage dealing or Darkness/Flash simulating related abilities should be represented with additional power buys linked to the Mental Illusions power. As the power is currently constructed, either you run roughshod over the game or the GM neuters you because of the vagueness of the power description.

I've started a thread in 6e on Mental Powers, with Steve's permission. Part of what we're working on is this very thing.

[casualplayer]

I've started a thread in 6e on Mental Powers, with Steve's permission. Part of what we're working on is this very thing.

Yeah, I never know where to respond and I'm too lazy to be thorough like Edsel. Is it too late to recategorize discussions into Standard, Mental, Adjustment and Special powers?

[palaskar]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

After a bit of thought, no. Mental Powers based on Con wouldn’t, so why should all Mental Power have Mental Awareness?

Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

No, not unless you want everybody in the campaign to have a base EGO/5 defense. Otherwise, it’s just free points.

Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

Urgh. You can always buy Armor, Gestures, possibly with a Focus for Deflection. Ranged Block could be a good way to represent it.

But anybody should not be able to do it, at least not easily. How many RL people do you know that can missile deflect. (In my case, one, a karate master who could do “arrow cutting,” IIRC – cutting arrows out of the air with his sword.)

If you want to simulate blocking, say, ordinary things being thrown at you, just attribute that to DCV. Why do people have a free rating to avoid attacks? This seems to be one of them.

But Reflection’s a bitch to represent. EB/RKA, up to the amount of the original attack, sometimes Indirect (to represent Reflection “at range.”) The trick, of course, is getting enough EB/RKA…and what if it’s NND,AVLD, or AP, or Penetrating…?

Reflection deserves its own writeup because of this. Possibly Deflection as well…how do you simulate Batman dodging Darkseid’s Omega beams? (Writing up the Omega Beams is a whole ‘nother can of worms…probably No Range Modifier, Fully Indirect, Extradimenisonal (everything), Explosive (only to counteract Dodge for Cover. And NND or AVLD, of course.)

Life Support: The limited resistances to poisons and diseases should be Heroic-only. Supers should be able to buy 10-point “immue to all diseases” and “immune to all toxins.” This is because limited resistances would probably only come up in a Heroic campaign, IMHO.

Luck: As per Fred. The BBB required much larger Luck and Unluck rolls to simulate the comics – 3 sixes for something really bad to happen, which was often.

[CTaylor]

LIFE SUPPORT: I like palaskar's thoughts above on this power.

MENTAL DEFENSE: I support having this as a default (like physical defense and energy defense) of EGO/5. It makes sense and it helps prevent mentalists from casually controlling the world.

MENTAL POWERS: At present mentalists are ridiculously powerful against normal targets and worthless against each other. This is too absolute, I understand there's some effort to change that with ultimate mentalist, but this is such a central part of the rules it seems like it ought to be in the main rules, not in an additional sourcebook.

REGENERATION: Bring back old-style regen. The present style bends the healing rules and takes as much (or more) time to explain as the original power. An (expensive) option for regen that is faster than once a turn would be good as well.

[Gary]

Luck: 3 pts for every 2 pts of Luck usable per day. Before any 3d6 roll, you declare how many pts of Luck you're willing to spend. If the Luck makes a difference in the roll, the roll succeeds or fails depending on the Luck holder’s choice and the pts are spent, otherwise no Luck pts are spent. You can use Luck on any 3d6 roll either for your own roll or if you’re opposing someone else’s roll.

Example:

Luck God has spent 30 pts for 20 pts of Luck. He desperately wants to hit Dr Doofus with an attack and declares he’s willing to spend 5 pts of Luck. His OCV is 8 and DD’s DCV is 10. He normally needs to roll a 9- to hit. If he rolls 9- or 15+, the Luck has made no difference to the roll and no Luck pts are spent. If he rolls 10-14, the Luck has made the difference in the attack and the Luck pts are spent. LG would have 15 pts left for the rest of the day.

If both attacker and defender declare Luck pts, the pts are spent and cancelled on a 1 for 1 basis up to the lesser amount. The side with higher Luck then applies any excess toward the roll. Both sides write down how many Luck pts they’re declaring before the dice are rolled.

Example:

Luck God now wants to attack Lady Luck. He again declares 5 pts, but Lady Luck declares 8 pts on defense. Both sides lose 5 pts of luck and LL has 3 pts declared toward her defense. So if both OCV and DCV were 8, then a 8- or 12+ results in no Luck pts spent and a roll of 9-11 results in a miss and the remaining 3 Luck pts expended.

If Luck is placed in a multipower or VPP and is spent, that many pts of the MP or VPP’s reserve is lost until the Luck regenerates.

At the GM discretion, he can disallow Luck from applying to any roll where Luck should not apply.

[Tonio]

Luck: 3 pts for every 2 pts of Luck usable per day. Before any 3d6 roll, you declare how many pts of Luck you're willing to spend. If the Luck makes a difference in the roll, the roll succeeds or fails depending on the Luck holder’s choice and the pts are spent, otherwise no Luck pts are spent. You can use Luck on any 3d6 roll either for your own roll or if you’re opposing someone else’s roll.

Example:

Luck God has spent 30 pts for 20 pts of Luck. He desperately wants to hit Dr Doofus with an attack and declares he’s willing to spend 5 pts of Luck. His OCV is 8 and DD’s DCV is 10. He normally needs to roll a 9- to hit. If he rolls 9- or 15+, the Luck has made no difference to the roll and no Luck pts are spent. If he rolls 10-14, the Luck has made the difference in the attack and the Luck pts are spent. LG would have 15 pts left for the rest of the day.

If both attacker and defender declare Luck pts, the pts are spent and cancelled on a 1 for 1 basis up to the lesser amount. The side with higher Luck then applies any excess toward the roll. Both sides write down how many Luck pts they’re declaring before the dice are rolled.

Example:

Luck God now wants to attack Lady Luck. He again declares 5 pts, but Lady Luck declares 8 pts on defense. Both sides lose 5 pts of luck and LL has 3 pts declared toward her defense. So if both OCV and DCV were 8, then a 8- or 12+ results in no Luck pts spent and a roll of 9-11 results in a miss and the remaining 3 Luck pts expended.

If Luck is placed in a multipower or VPP and is spent, that many pts of the MP or VPP’s reserve is lost until the Luck regenerates.

At the GM discretion, he can disallow Luck from applying to any roll where Luck should not apply.

I dunno... I like the "lucky things happen to your character, in general" aspect of the current Luck power (which your proposal doesn't include), and what you're proposing is doable right now with Overall Levels and Charges. =)

[nexus]

I dunno... I like the "lucky things happen to your character, in general" aspect of the current Luck power (which your proposal doesn't include), and what you're proposing is doable right now with Overall Levels and Charges. =)

I agree while it might be vague, Luck (generally) is vague. SFX could get that across but it still seems to lose some flavor.

Overall comment: I've noticed a general drive to formally codify allot of effects in this forum. That's often a good things but making too many thing