Powers Issues -- L-R

[Steve Long]

Hi folx! Here are some thoughts about Powers that begin with L-R that have occurred to me over the years, along with my brief thoughts on them. I’m posting them here to stimulate discussion, but not to limit or restrict it. These aren’t necessarily all the issues about these Powers that could be considered, nor the only thoughts about them. Feel free to post anything here that you think is relevant and reasonably constructive; you don’t have to limit yourself to what I’ve posted.

Regardless of whatever opinion I post on an idea, I’m always willing to be convinced otherwise if you think you can do it. ;) The fact that I’m posting an opinion doesn’t necessarily mean my mind’s made up on an issue; it just indicates my current thinking on the subject.

Periodically I may post other questions and thoughts that occur to me.


Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

Steve’s Thoughts: In the spirit of removing the concept of Figured Characteristics, it would be consistent to remove this “freebie” from Mental Powers. I won’t say I’m totally sold on it, but it’s definitely worth considering.


Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

Steve’s Thoughts: In the spirit of removing the concept of Figured Characteristics, it would be consistent to remove this “freebie” from Mental Defense. I won’t say I’m totally sold on it, but it’s definitely worth considering. At a guess, it was intended to put Mental Defense on a par with PD and ED, both of which are derived from a Primary Characteristic. If we stop doing that for PD and ED, we should stop it for Mental Defense. (See the Characteristics post for the question “Should Mental Defense be a Characteristic?”.)


Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

Steve’s Thoughts: I think so. I wrote a whole HEROglyphs column in DH #38 describing some of the problems I see with this Power, including: you’re paying points for something that Dodge essentially lets you do for free; its effectiveness is based on special effects (deflect thrown, deflect arrows, etc.) rather than a game effect; the basing of Reflection on Deflection causes some problems.

I’m not necessarily saying that any of the ideas in my DH #38 column are the solutions to MD&R’s problems, but I think they need to be solved to make the Power worthwhile.

[JmOz]

One idea I had on Missile Reflection/deflection a while back was to make it based on defence type instead of special effect, so you would buy Physical or Energy or Power, etc. Each for 10 points. I also considered some form of Unified F/X so all magic or all fire powers...

[McCoy]

Could we bring back Regeneration as its own power? Pleasepleasepleaseplease?

[OzMike]

I think that luck as a power needs attention. Perhaps if the probability alternation power is introduced then you can use the mechanics as defined by that and introduce things like No Range, Self Only, 0 End, Persistent to it to make it work ...

... sorry for the pause, the wife came home and I had to do the dishes...

...anyway, over the dishes I was thinking that perhaps there is an existing power that best simulates the minor effects that luck can grant - Change Environment.

I should give that one some thought... hmmm...

[nexus]

Bring back Regeneration as its own power (with the Regrew limb and Resurrection Adders). Clumping it under Aid is cumbersome and somewhat counterintuitive.

[steamteck]

Agreeing with Nexus and McCoy on regeneration here but not that big an issue to me.

[Kdansky]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?
Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

Soooo totally against freebies here. You name the reasons: MD is a figured stat (and a very questionable one at that, since MC and MI and Telepathy already go straight against EGO, they now go against EGO*1.2. Pointless, really. MA is just a sense, everyone else buys their senses too.


Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?
Yep. Deflection is basically 20 points for a ranged adder to the block maneuver. Highly questionable why this is required. Also, as you say: I can define my special effect at creation (and bullet vs thrown has the same cost), and then my enemy cannot deflect it? Eh what? If he takes some limitation (not against special Effect X) that makes sense, but the general case should include all.

[The Main Man]

I still like the alternate Missile Deflection rules from TUEP and I think that they should become the new definitive rules.

On the other hand, maybe Missile Deflection and its ilk could become a Naked Advantage that is applied to Block.

[Kdansky]

Luck: Make the default one of the re-rolling methods or the "add some number to some dice", not the very GM-chooses-method, and possibly some more examples which are not Luck, but "keen senses", "high adrenaline", limited luck (only for blocks) or some-such. I really like reroll/roll fudge systems, because it gives you interesting options all the time. Also make the rules clearer on how often one rolls the luck dice. Could also be a skill which decreases (if you pass your 13- luck roll, it becomes 12-, and you get to reroll whatever you want), something like the Team Reroll in Blood Bowl. (rules free on the net)
I'm a lot for renaming it or even making it a central stat/characteristic. Yes, it's very un-hero, but it's cool! Also, it works well with disadvantages (complications).

I could also take a split up of luck and "reroll power". Edge in Battletech did that. Many systems have it, it works well and is cool.

[Edsel]

I printed off all of Steve's original posts in all of the 6th Edition threads and spent hours reading them last night and thinking. It is amazing how little I came up with to respond with though. However the opinions in this post are based only on what Steve has posted in message #1 of this thread, I haven't been influenced by what others have posted subsequently since I haven't read them yet. I will try to keep my comments brief since there is a hellava lot to read in these discussions.

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?
No. It makes sense that it should have to be paid for separately.


Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?
No. I should work like other defenses and be bought up from zero.


Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?
No. I have no problem with the current rules.

[Vondy]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

Its an exotic sense group that probably has sub-categories and should be purchased like any other exotic sense.


Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

No. Why is this in the rules again?


Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

I would argue that your blocking at range, but at the same time, the power is currently wonky and a special effect masquerading as a power. It could be expressed as an adder or modifier for other powers (permeable force wall, etc).

[Vondy]

Now, I have two issues.

1) Mental Powers and their effect tables (Ego, Ego+10, Etc).

This strikes me as a really wonky mechanic that tends to make mentalists totally ineffective or giant mind-shredders who seldom fail. There has to be some middle ground that can be found. I don't know how to do this, but I'm really uncomfortable with mental powers as they are currently expressed. I tend to use talents based on detects-senses with opposed rolls for telepathy in heroic games because of it (with resistance instead of mental defense). I've done similar things for mind control.

Now, with that said: I don't propose what I've been doing works for most genres (or mental illusions, which could just be images BOECV or a combination of other powers), but its more streamlined and very effective for pulp, sci-fi and swords and sorcery. It would NOT work for supers or some high-end psionics approaches, but I really do feel the "levels of effect" method needs a serious re-evaluation.

2) Regeneration.

My complaint is not the one you might surmise. I do think regen is a distinct enough application to merit being its own power, but I can live with it as a part of healing. The issue I have with it is the time chart: the time chart isn't really linear, but fakes an exponential progression based on common measures of time. My issue with this is, any slow regen past 1 minute is hard to model precisely, esp. with purchasing dice, without reworking the time chart. Either the time chart needs to be looked at again, or we need some method to easily and quickly model a standardized slow regen that doesn't take a bunch of fiddling. Also, a shorthand for this power would be much appreciated. Its very long to write based on what it does right now.

[The Main Man]

In regards to classes of minds in mental powers, I tend to gauge a character's class of mind depending on how they role-play.

Machine = Dependent on instructions and programming; unable to function without such input.

Animal = Independent, but limited by instincts and characteristic motivations.

Human = Independent and capable of abstract thoughts, like you or me.

Alien = Anything under Machine, above Human, or in between. Bacteria, Plants, and Gods would all be Aliens if properly role-played.

[Chris Goodwin]

Agreeing with Nexus and McCoy on regeneration here but not that big an issue to me.

Agreed with all of the above.

[Edsel]

Could we bring back Regeneration as its own power? Pleasepleasepleaseplease?
I support this. Regeneration is too common of a power in comic book, horror and scifi themes. It ought to be its own separate power.

[misterdeath]

2) Regeneration.

My complaint is not the one you might surmise. I do think regen is a distinct enough application to merit being its own power, but I can live with it as a part of healing. The issue I have with it is the time chart: the time chart isn't really linear, but fakes an exponential progression based on common measures of time. My issue with this is, any slow regen past 1 minute is hard to model precisely, esp. with purchasing dice, without reworking the time chart. Either the time chart needs to be looked at again, or we need some method to easily and quickly model a standardized slow regen that doesn't take a bunch of fiddling. Also, a shorthand for this power would be much appreciated. Its very long to write based on what it does right now.

I've always thought Regeneration should be separate from Aid (before)/Healing (currently), that a good model would be moving the Rec rate up the Time Chart. Unfortunately, that gets wonky for just the reason you mension--The time chart is so non-linear that things get really strange as you move too far up or down it.

So, yeah, a fix to the time chart would make that a viable option to create.

D

[misterdeath]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

Nope. Why should mentalist get a free sense when nobody else does.


Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

Nope. Ego is covered under breakout rolls. Why should it count double?


Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

Yeah, it's a bit unsatisfying the way it stands now, it's Block vs Ranged, with some sort of extra thing/other mechanics tacked on with some spit and bailing wire.

D

[Adventus]

I would like to chime in on Regeneration. There exists 2 mechanics to recovering BODY: Regeneration and Recovery. You already get Body back in recovery every month. So, base Regeneration off of Recovery instead of Healing or Aid. Then it becomes either an advantage or a Limitation based on how fast or slow you make it.

[Andrew Byers]

Bring back Regeneration as its own power (with the Regrew limb and Resurrection Adders). Clumping it under Aid is cumbersome and somewhat counterintuitive.


I definitely agree with this comment. While I know the trend has been to reduce the number of separate powers if they can be built using another power, I think Regeneration is a case where building it using Aid is more cumbersome than its worth.

[Lord Liaden]

Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

Steve’s Thoughts: In the spirit of removing the concept of Figured Characteristics, it would be consistent to remove this “freebie” from Mental Defense. I won’t say I’m totally sold on it, but it’s definitely worth considering. At a guess, it was intended to put Mental Defense on a par with PD and ED, both of which are derived from a Primary Characteristic. If we stop doing that for PD and ED, we should stop it for Mental Defense. (See the Characteristics post for the question “Should Mental Defense be a Characteristic?”.)

FWIW in my games I made Figured Mental Defense one of the "toggles" that distinguish Heroic from Superheroic campaigns. IOW for Heroic games, where the Active Points of Powers tend to be lower, I toggle off Figured MD, so that mentalists in those games will be more effective. OTOH I generally toggle it on for Superheroic games since Mental Powers tend to have much higher AP - in fact, in most cases all characters in such games receive EGO/5 MD for free regardless of whether they purchased separate MD.

[Pattern Ghost]

I know that Regeneration, and generally going back to old ways of doing things, is verboten for discussion.... BUT:

1Body/Turn Regen, with adders (or even Advantages, b/c regenning from death should be pricey) for Regrowing Limbs and From Death, are much simpler than the current system. If streamlining the game and the character sheet is a goal, making Regen its own power again fits in that goal IMO.

Besides, under the current system, 1Body/Turn regen is 8 pts, which is too cheap IMO.

[Chris Goodwin]

I'm totally agreed on everything said about Regeneration.

Steve, if there are no sacred cows, why can't we talk about Regeneration?

[JmOz]

I would like to chime in on Regeneration. There exists 2 mechanics to recovering BODY: Regeneration and Recovery. You already get Body back in recovery every month. So, base Regeneration off of Recovery instead of Healing or Aid. Then it becomes either an advantage or a Limitation based on how fast or slow you make it.

To expand on this and sugest an idea

Regeneration becomes its own power, but mechanicaly somewhat different from what we have seen before.

Base regeneration is a step down on the time chart, so, and I am throwing this out there with out balanceing it so points may be off, for 10 points you would recover your REC in body per week, for 20 points it is per day, 30 points it is every 5 hours, 40 points it is every hour, 50 would be every 20 min, 60 every 5 min, 70 every minute, 80 would be every turn (the maximum allowed without GM approval). Current healer adders would be included and take that long to become effective (In theroy you could buy it at the 0 point level for the adders). So at the 10 point level you will resurect in a week.

[Lord Liaden]

I'm not sure whether Regeneration should go here or on the thread for H, since technically it's a subset of Healing; but since we've gone this far I might as well continue.

The thing that bothers me about Regeneration as a subset of Healing, is not that it attempts to model a specific effect through an elaborate modification of another Power; it's not the only example of that in the system, although perhaps the most involved. It's that to create that effect it has to ignore the default rules for Healing, i.e. the cap on the maximum that can be Healed. I have to question the point of going through a long process to create something by the rules, if you end up bending the rules anyway.

While I think that going back to the old way of buying Regeneration has merit (perhaps including all the Healing-specific Modifiers that apply to Regen), I did experiment with adding a variant of the Cumulative Advantage (+1/2) to the existing build for Regeneration, as a way of accounting for the ability to keep adding BODY until the character is completely Healed.

Interestingly, if you do add that additional Advantage and keep all the other Modifiers, the Real Cost of regenerating 1 BODY per Turn would be 10 points... exactly the same as under 4E. ;)

[BobGreenwade]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?I would say no to both questions (except if Mental Defense is used as a Characteristic).
Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?Yes, and your article about this addresses a lot of the problems I've seen, especially its special effects base rather than point or game effects base. Find a good way to include a "catch and return" effect (a sort of "delayed reflection") and I think you'll have something good.

[James Gillen]

I'm not sure whether Regeneration should go here or on the thread for H, since technically it's a subset of Healing; but since we've gone this far I might as well continue.

The thing that bothers me about Regeneration as a subset of Healing, is not that it attempts to model a specific effect through an elaborate modification of another Power; it's not the only example of that in the system, although perhaps the most involved. It's that to create that effect it has to ignore the default rules for Healing, i.e. the cap on the maximum that can be Healed. I have to question the point of going through a long process to create something by the rules, if you end up bending the rules anyway.

I've already gone over this particular power but that's a big issue with HERO 5th in general- to the extent that it has problems, it's the inconsistency created in an attempt to make everything consistent. ;)

JG

[Enforcer84]

I would like to chime in on Regeneration. There exists 2 mechanics to recovering BODY: Regeneration and Recovery. You already get Body back in recovery every month. So, base Regeneration off of Recovery instead of Healing or Aid. Then it becomes either an advantage or a Limitation based on how fast or slow you make it.
I like this a lot. Well said and rep to Adventus!

[Xotl]

1) As posted by someone else years ago:

Life Support: the cost breakdowns are both too high and needlessly complex for poisons & diseases, and the cost problem is compounded in low-point Heroic games. I'd suggest:

1 point: immune to single disease or poison.
3 points: immune to related group of diseases or poisons (e.g. zootoxins, viral infections).
5 points: immune to all poisons.
5 points: immune to all disease.

Edits way after the fact:

2) I would also like to see Missile Deflection renamed to just plain "Deflection" and handled as it is in Ultimate Energy Projector. Between the two changes you get a cleaner power that is completely divorced in all ways from SFX.

3) Adventus' above idea regarding Regeneration seems quite clever. I like it a lot.

4) Mental Powers: I would like to see Class of Minds moved to The Ultimate Mentalist as an option, rather than as a default rule for the main rulebook. Not only does it make the main rules simpler, mental powers are already annoyingly all-or-nothing enough as it is, and lastly, I don't see people making sure they bought Animal class for their shotguns. Class of Minds is one of those things that presents SFX as rules, something Hero normally tries to avoid. As far as the main rulebook is concerned, they should only appear as a power limitation.

[Hugh Neilson]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

No freebie. Saving 12 points on a 60 AP power for giving back a 3 point Sense should answer this in a heartbeat.


Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

Only if MD is a figured characteristic granted to everyone. Remove the freebie.


Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

I think these should be adders applied to the Block maneuver. This would allow for blocking HTH and ranged attacks at the same time.


I'm not sure whether Regeneration should go here or on the thread for H, since technically it's a subset of Healing; but since we've gone this far I might as well continue.

I posted under Healing. I'm OK with regen as separate power or as healing, but the latter must be brought into line with the reuse rules. I note that 1d6 STandard Effect is 3 points, but Regen gets 2, so it's 2/3 of 1d6. It should now pay the appropriate decreased re-use advantage, and benefit from any changes to the Self Only limitation. I'd expect the cost to come in between the current 7 and change, and the old 10.


As posted by someone else years ago:

Life Support: the cost breakdowns are both too high and needlessly complex for poisons & diseases, and the cost problem is compounded in low-point Heroic games. I'd suggest:

1 point: immune to single disease or poison.
3 points: immune to related group of diseases or poisons (i.e. zootoxins, viral infections).
5 points: immune all poisons.
5 points: immune to all disease.

I agree life support is too expensive for most effects. Reducing the cost of "full life support" should be pursued.

[BobGreenwade]

Here's something on Mental Powers that I posted in the discussion on TUM that didn't get into the book even though I got tons of positive remarks for it (as well as +4 Rep, the second most I've ever gotten from a single post). I would have posted it earlier but I'm not quite sure which thread it should go into; I chose this one because most of the Mental Powers are listed in this part of the book, and it would be most often applied to Mental Illusions and Mind Control.

The idea is simple: to represent a continuing-effect Mental Power that always has a particular quality, buy that quality directly with points.

For example, suppose MindStorm has Mind Control, and his targets always remember their actions and think they're normal (+20 on the Mind Control Effects Table). The current way to do that would be to buy an additional 6d6 with Standard Effect, and a Limitation that it only applies to that effect plus whatever other Power Modifiers the base Power has. The way I suggest would give a nice, simple 20-point Adder that slips neatly right into the character sheet. It only has +20 Active Points instead of +30, and accordingly costs 4 END more rather than 6 END (along with other lessened effects on things like RSR), and this can be either a Good Thing or a Bad Thing depending on your POV.

This would, of course, also apply to things like doing STUN and/or BODY with Mental Illusions, making Mind Scan or Telepathy undetectable to the target, and probably even achieving specific levels of effect.

[Opal]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?
Steve’s Thoughts: In the spirit of removing the concept of Figured Characteristics, it would be consistent to remove this “freebie” from Mental Powers. I won’t say I’m totally sold on it, but it’s definitely worth considering.I think that's a spirit that should go back in the bottle. Point savings on 'packages' of abilities that /should/ be closely related are a good idea and should be retained. If they were a bad idea, no one would be playing the game today, it'd've died by 1984 - because such things have always been part of the system.

Things like ECs, limitations, disadvantages, and, yes, figured characteristics and little things like getting Mental Awareness when you have a Mental Power - all make the game better by giving players an impetus to come up with characters that make some sense. Removing such things is going to result in more characters who are just a collection of powers and numbers.



Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?Yes. Once a high-EGO person has developed any mental defense, it should be stronger than that of a low-EGO person.



Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?
Missle Deflection is basically the ability to block ranged attacks. There's nothing wrong with some characters having such an ability, but it can probably be handled much like block. Yes, it would make a little more sense to pay cost based on the mechanics of the attack than on the F/X. Specifically, on the attack roll.

That is, missle deflection should let you to block a ranged OCV vs DCV attack. An adder might let you add attacks that target a hex. A bigger adder, might let you deflect any part of an AE effect entering your hex.

It should otherwise be mechanically identical to block.


Reflection certainly needs to stay, but could be a sepparate power not directly related to missle deflection - it could be based on the power of the attack, for instance. You buy X amount of reflection, it lets you reflect that much BOD worth of attack. If it's exceeded, you still reflect, but only the amount of your reflection - the rest of the attack gets through (much like a FW). Unlike actual defensive powers, you should not be able to abort to Reflection - you'd have to use a saved phase to activate it or have it running as a constant power.

[Blue]

I'm not a big fan of making a post without having some kind of suggestion for fixing it, so I'll make this brief.

I've always had trouble ajudicating Mental powers; primarily Mind Control. Seems to me most of the time I'm splitting hairs at to how inclined somene is and my opinion almost always differs from the players.

What's more, Mind Controls rarely work. I mean, an uber-mentalist can take over people and play them like puppets (if one can play puppets), but there are so many rolls to resist that I basically had to remove some, otherwise a mentalist who successfully attacked and rolled enough dice to get the target to act always had his control broken before the target managed to actually perform the action.

But I really seem to be the exception on these things. And as I say, I don't have a lot of input on how to fix it.

[MicroMike]

Luck: Make this a talent, and remove all the 5th Ed options from it. Those options turned several games into 'crit the big bad in the head and win' cakewalks.

Replace with Hero Points. You could spend a HP to make a reroll, add a temp. +10 to STUN, or something.

Life Support: Just state 'Immune to all Poisons' for 10 pts. or 'Immune to all Diseases' for 10 pts. If a player wants less, make it a Limited Power from -2 to -1/4 and make the player define thier funky exceptions to the power. Listing zootoxins and Rabies, and Alcohol and Common Cold/Flu is contrary to the entire HERO philosophy.

[ajackson]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?
No, it's not really needed.


Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?
Well, I'm tempted to make Mental Blast consistent with other mental powers by saying it's 5 points per die and you subtract Ego from the effect.


Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?
While the existing mechanics aren't terrible, the main way to use deflection in practice is that you put it into your multipower as a deflection slot; deflection is almost never worth using normally because it consumes an attack action, and without a bunch of bonus levels it's no better than a dodge. As for reflection, you have the oddity of being able to reflect unlimited amounts of force with a successful roll; reflection seems like it should be a power related to PD/ED rather than a power resembling Block.

Deflection for yourself should probably be a free everyman maneuver; it's generally comparable to dodging, but occasionally lets you do useful things that can't be done with dodging, such as stepping in front of someone else. The ability to deflect attacks which aren't coming towards you is an advantage. If it should be possible to 'blow through' deflection, give it a slight bonus to the roll, and have it provide some extra defense based on skill or blocking power or something.

[Adventus]

I wish I could take credit for this idea. However, I first saw it posted on Red October by Opal. Welcome back Opal. So you rep should go to her not me.

[ghost-angel]

I'll echo The Main Man in stating that the Missile Deflection/Reflection from UEP should be the new Default Mechanic.

I also, like the others, don't believe that having a Mental Power should get you the Mental Sense for free.

[James Gillen]

Here's something on Mental Powers that I posted in the discussion on TUM that didn't get into the book even though I got tons of positive remarks for it (as well as +4 Rep, the second most I've ever gotten from a single post). I would have posted it earlier but I'm not quite sure which thread it should go into; I chose this one because most of the Mental Powers are listed in this part of the book, and it would be most often applied to Mental Illusions and Mind Control.

The idea is simple: to represent a continuing-effect Mental Power that always has a particular quality, buy that quality directly with points.

For example, suppose MindStorm has Mind Control, and his targets always remember their actions and think they're normal (+20 on the Mind Control Effects Table). The current way to do that would be to buy an additional 6d6 with Standard Effect, and a Limitation that it only applies to that effect plus whatever other Power Modifiers the base Power has. The way I suggest would give a nice, simple 20-point Adder that slips neatly right into the character sheet. It only has +20 Active Points instead of +30, and accordingly costs 4 END more rather than 6 END (along with other lessened effects on things like RSR), and this can be either a Good Thing or a Bad Thing depending on your POV.

This would, of course, also apply to things like doing STUN and/or BODY with Mental Illusions, making Mind Scan or Telepathy undetectable to the target, and probably even achieving specific levels of effect.

Repped.

jg

[Enforcer84]

I wish I could take credit for this idea. However, I first saw it posted on Red October by Opal. Welcome back Opal. So you rep should go to her not me.
The Rec/Regeneration Rule? Consider Opal Repped!

[megaplayboy]

On mental powers, if you're going to keep the existing table, I think one thing should at bare minimum be listed as an optional rule:
Breakout rolls shouldn't be straight EGO rolls, they should be contested rolls, with the target rolling their ego roll against the mentalist's. Note that this doesn't affect the target thresholds the mentalist has to hit to establish whatever level of control/effect, but it is likely going to be more difficult for a non-mentalist target to break out of control/effect. Characters could buy Resistance in order to get breakout roll bonuses, and mentalists could use combat skill levels to add to their rolls to maintain control as well.

Keeping the existing difficulty tables while adding a contested breakout roll would mean that the average mentalist isn't devastatingly more effective, but they are more effective on average with telepathy, mind scan, mental illusions and mind control.

[Vondy]

I would like to chime in on Regeneration. There exists 2 mechanics to recovering BODY: Regeneration and Recovery. You already get Body back in recovery every month. So, base Regeneration off of Recovery instead of Healing or Aid. Then it becomes either an advantage or a Limitation based on how fast or slow you make it.

I started doing this for slow regen characters about a year ago so I wouldn't have to fiddle with the time chart, and because I think the current expression for regeneration is overly complex (and breezy in terms of space on the character sheet). I haven't looked back.

[Opal]

There are no new ideas: When I first posted my Regen variant on RO, someone immediately chimed in, "oh, yeah, I've been doing something like that - it works great!" I think Fuzion may have used a similar aproach, too - either that or yet another person came up with a similar Fuzion variant independently, as well....


Oh, and I posted the full text of it on the boards, so Hero Games owns it! ;)

No reason not to use it...

[Ockham's Spoon]

On Regneration:
I am fine with this as a subset of Healing, but only if it doesn't violate the general Healing rules. But it might be nice, for ease of character building, if there were a sidebar or something that basically said "Once all the advantages and disadvantages are applied, a regeneration power works out to 10 points for 1 BDY/turn" or whatever. I have other gripes with Healing, but I guess I'll post that under the "H" thread.

On Missile Deflection:
Missile deflection should be a combat manuever that anyone can perform, like a Block. Reflection is the power people should have to buy. That said, my complaint with Missile Deflection is that its cost is predicated on the SFX of the attack. Sure it makes sense that it is harder to block bullets than baseballs, but that should be reflected in the cost of the attack, not in the cost of Missile Deflection. Ranged attacks should have an adder cost for projectile, supersonic projectile, and lightspeed "projectile". Those adder costs are essentially penalty skill levels against anyone trying to Missile Deflect. So if you want to be able to deflect laser beams, you better have enough levels with the Missile Deflection manuever to overcome the penalty skill levels it imposes.

[dstarfire]

I agree life support is too expensive for most effects. Reducing the cost of "full life support" should be pursued.

Another vote for re-working life support, specifically the immunities and "safe in ...". First of all, it's an absolute defense, (everybody knows absolutes don't belong in the hero system *L*).

I'd suggest moving it to the talent section as a limited form of defense. This would have the added benefit of basing the cost on the frequency of occurence, which varies quite a bit between genres and even individual campaigns.

[SSgt Baloo]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

It's power with (mostly) "invisible SFX" that can still be be "seen" by it's victims. Delete that "temporary" mental Awareness from the targets and I have no problem with mentalists needing to buy a sense just to use their powers.


Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

See below. Lord Liaden suggested an ideal answer


Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

Steve’s Thoughts: I think so. I wrote a whole HEROglyphs column in DH #38 describing some of the problems I see with this Power, including: you’re paying points for something that Dodge essentially lets you do for free; its effectiveness is based on special effects (deflect thrown, deflect arrows, etc.) rather than a game effect; the basing of Reflection on Deflection causes some problems.

I think others have come up with a number of helpful suggestions. I'd like to see Missile Deflection become an expansion on the "block" maneuver, with missile reflection either becoming its own power (and including a melee-only version), or lumped on top of Missile deflection (I have no problem with either concept.)


FWIW in my games I made Figured Mental Defense one of the "toggles" that distinguish Heroic from Superheroic campaigns. IOW for Heroic games, where the Active Points of Powers tend to be lower, I toggle off Figured MD, so that mentalists in those games will be more effective. OTOH I generally toggle it on for Superheroic games since Mental Powers tend to have much higher AP - in fact, in most cases all characters in such games receive EGO/5 MD for free regardless of whether they purchased separate MD.

Excellent suggestion.


As posted by someone else years ago:

Life Support: the cost breakdowns are both too high and needlessly complex for poisons & diseases, and the cost problem is compounded in low-point Heroic games. I'd suggest:

1 point: immune to single disease or poison.
3 points: immune to related group of diseases or poisons (i.e. zootoxins, viral infections).
5 points: immune to all poisons.
5 points: immune to all disease.

I would like to add my endorsement to simplifying Life Support. I think Xlotl's suggestion has merit. I would also like to see Regeneration restored to its former glory as an independent power. It's just klugy the way regen works in 5E.

[Markdoc]

Life Support: Just state 'Immune to all Poisons' for 10 pts. or 'Immune to all Diseases' for 10 pts. If a player wants less, make it a Limited Power from -2 to -1/4 and make the player define thier funky exceptions to the power. Listing zootoxins and Rabies, and Alcohol and Common Cold/Flu is contrary to the entire HERO philosophy.

Good point - that always struck me as kind of dumb - and it makes no kind of biological sense. I understand Steve wanting to break Life support down into various options (and that was a worthwhile exercise) but the way it's written now is clunky.

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Another vote for re-working life support, specifically the immunities and "safe in ...". First of all, it's an absolute defense, (everybody knows absolutes don't belong in the hero system *L*).

I've never understood this, since life support isn't actually a defence at all. Yes, it's absolute - you get immunity to an environmental effect, but Safe in extreme environments, (heat) offers precisely 0 DEF against a heat blast.

It's like saying that a blind person has absolute defence against Flash (sight group).

cheers, Mark

[nexus]

Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

Steve’s Thoughts: I think so. I wrote a whole HEROglyphs column in DH #38 describing some of the problems I see with this Power, including: you’re paying points for something that Dodge essentially lets you do for free; its effectiveness is based on special effects (deflect thrown, deflect arrows, etc.) rather than a game effect; the basing of Reflection on Deflection causes some problems.

I’m not necessarily saying that any of the ideas in my DH #38 column are the solutions to MD&R’s problems, but I think they need to be solved to make the Power worthwhile.[/QUOTE]

I think Missile Deflection should have a flat cost with limitations based on what it can and can't deflect and possibly a modifier or adder that allows it to be used as a non attack action to distinguish it more from Dodge. A Hand to Hand reflection modifier should be added. Some clarification about whether it's innately Restrainable or not could be added but its not required.

Life Support: I would love it if more granularity was added to this ability. Maybe cost all categories at 5 points so they could be scaled more easily. If you could only resist Terrestrial level environments for example, you'd get a 1 or 2 point cost break depending on the campaign.

Of course this would aggravate the problem of Life Support being so damn expensive. :-/

[Netzilla]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

Heck, I forget my mentalists have it half the time anyway. Besides, mental powers currently offer more than enough freebies (LoS Range Limit, No Range Modifiers, NND, Indirect and so on) that they can afford to take the loss.


Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

I'll say no. I never cared for EGO getting “double-duty” if you buy just a single point of Mental Defense. Ego 30 without MD is 30 vs the various mental powers. 30 with +1 MD is 37. That's a pretty good jump.


Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

I think that if you remove Missile Deflection/Reflection, you're going to end up making Reflection/Redirection effects way more complicated to build than they should be. What I do think needs to be done is that the categories that Missile Deflection works against need to be changed. They should be based off of mechanical attack types (HtH, Ranged, Killing, Normal, NND, AVLD, Mental, Adjustment) rather than special effects.

[eternal_sage]

(cross posted for completeness)

i for one would REALLY like to see the mechanic for Telepathy (and Mind Control, and PRE Attacks) be completely taken out, and replaced with something that doesn't seem quite so out of place.

for instance: these powers still give you a number of d6, and they still get compared to EGO, however if "Normal Damage" from the dice beats EGO you get the most basic effect, if the "Normal BODY Damage" is greater than EGO then you get the advanced effect. Mental Def acts like normal Def in this case (reducing the effect) and could even get a Resistant MD option.

or something different. this is one of my wife's biggest pet peeves, and one she claims makes mentalists nigh unplayable. i agree that the current system makes these powers confusing and they feel tacked on. my two coppers

[ajackson]

Hm. I'm actually tempted by reworking life support so it doesn't give immunity. Right now, there's no easy way to distinguish between the guy who has an air conditioning system that lets him walk around at 500F or so (fire fighter gear) and a guy that can walk around at temperatures of 1 million degrees.

There's something to be said for converting all NND attacks to AVLD attacks (probably vs Power defense; most power defense special effects logically grant some protection from most NND special effects) and treating life support as a bonus to defense (for the environmental immunities, probably +10 defense per point). Poison and disease are odder because total immunity is actually plausible (and in general there's a limit to how low you can go with either pressure or temperature), but just saying 'real-world poisons and diseases don't exceed Xd6' would do the job; if you want a cinematic super-disease that infects rocks, well, it's a superhero game.

[Chris Goodwin]

M is for Mental Powers

Might it be time to retire the separate Mental Powers mechanic? We have ways to build Powers that target ECV rather than DCV, that have Range: Line of Sight, that have No Range Penalty, are Invisible and Indirect, etc.

We could even specify in the descriptions of what are currently the Mental Powers that they target ECV by default, and here's how to buy them to target DCV.

(That might also give us room to drop all of the ____ Defense Powers and replace them with an SFX Defense. You could buy SFX Defense: Mental Powers, SFX Defense: Bright Lights, SFX Defense: Loud Noises, SFX Defense: Poisons and Toxins, and so forth. But that's a separate suggestion and is likely to get a big shout-down.)

[Chris Goodwin]

While I'm on the subject...

How about a slight alteration in how the Mental Powers work? Instead of breakout rolls, they decay at 5 points per Turn, like Adjustment Powers do, and you can buy that rate up (maybe at +1/2 per level). Once they decay below the target's EGO, they wear off. And the target can push his EGO at any time, which counts, and that could be considered the "breakout roll". Mental Powers could then be Healed (perhaps a note that they could be "healed" by the same Mental Power used by someone else, as well as a Healing Power bought appropriately). I wouldn't make them Cumulative by default, though; if you hit someone else with the same Power, you get the most recent roll worth of effect, even if it's less than one you've already used. But it does "erase" any decay that's happened since the first time you used it, if it's more than the current level (just brings it up to whatever you just rolled). You could also buy Mental Powers as Cumulative, and they would work exactly the way you'd expect Cumulative Mental Powers to, given our additional modifications.

[ajackson]

If you set the basic fade rate at 5 points per phase, even +1/4 for slow fade will put high end mind control effects out of reach on most characters.

[Chris Goodwin]

If you set the basic fade rate at 5 points per phase, even +1/4 for slow fade will put high end mind control effects out of reach on most characters.

Per Phase is too much. Per Turn, just like Adjustment Powers.

[ajackson]

Per Phase is too much. Per Turn, just like Adjustment Powers.
Why? One phase of mind control is actually a big deal in a fight.

[Chris Goodwin]

Okay, you're right. So, if we're talking about, say, 12d6 Mind Control, average roll 42.... average non-Mentalist PC has, say, 14 EGO.... we've hit EGO+20 there. Actually 28... so he's got 6 full Phases of being Mind Controlled. But he can push his Ego, to 24.... drops that to 4 Phases. He has to do it at the right time.

Still. Mental Powers are pretty nerfy. Plus I think that if we can reuse mechanics (decay = 5 points per (time increment)), then we should.

[Opal]

Mental Powers have extreme effects, even a single phase of successful mind-control can shift a fight. If you look at how they tend to work in genre, they're usually either shrugged off quickly, broken when the victim is pushed to do something abhorrent, or provide an absolute effect that leaves the victim zombie-ized or otherwise clearly not himself.

The first two are modeled well, the last might be better done with a transform.

In any case, they /need/ to be far less than dependable, at reasonable power levels, because they can have such a disproportionate effect. PC-level mentalists need to be subtle.

[Hugh Neilson]

We have ways to build Powers that target ECV rather than DCV

Ummm...where? BoECV is a kludge that consolidates other abilities.

Now, we SHOULD have rules for conversion of a power that uses OCV to one using OECV, and one targeting DCV to one targeting DECV. It should be possible for them to be separate (I pick up the knife with my psychokinesis, so I toss it based on ECV, but you dodge it in the physical plane, so you use DCV).

[Tonio]

I think that's a spirit that should go back in the bottle. Point savings on 'packages' of abilities that /should/ be closely related are a good idea and should be retained. If they were a bad idea, no one would be playing the game today, it'd've died by 1984 - because such things have always been part of the system.

Things like ECs, limitations, disadvantages, and, yes, figured characteristics and little things like getting Mental Awareness when you have a Mental Power - all make the game better by giving players an impetus to come up with characters that make some sense. Removing such things is going to result in more characters who are just a collection of powers and numbers.


Yes. Once a high-EGO person has developed any mental defense, it should be stronger than that of a low-EGO person.

I wholeheartedly disagree. As I've said in the Characteristics thread (and as I'm sure you've read, hehe), having SFX directly affect game mechanics seems to me a hugely bad idea. The fact that the game has survived with that concept does not make it a good one. "Characters that make some sense" is entirely a subjective idea, and like all subjective issues, should be left up to the players and GM to adjudicate.

Getting Mental Awareness from having any Mental Power, and getting a higher Mental Defense from having a higher EGO, assume certain SFXs and character concepts, which you evidently agree with, but which not everybody might want. Your proposal (and the current system) subtly (or maybe not so subtly?) guide you into certain concepts, rather than freely accepting whichever concept the character builder wants. My proposal (to sum: no freebies) freely accepts all concepts equally, without prejudice, without any benefits to some concepts which were judged by someone to be somehow "better" or "more appropriate".

Whether a character is "just a collection of powers and numbers" has nothing to do with which powers, characteristics, skills, talents, perks, or disadvantages he has (i.e. no mechanical basis), but rather with how they're explained (i.e. concept, backstory, etc.). Consider two characters, both with EB, FF, and Flight. The first one defines his EB as "Fire Blast", his FF as "Shield of Flames", and his Flight as "flying like that Human Torch dude". The second one defines his EB as "I shoot plasma bolts from my eyes, because I'm an alien", his FF as "I'm surrounded by an aura of protection, because I'm a supermage", and his Flight as "the spirits of my ancestors lift me and carry me around". I'm pretty sure you'd call the first character a "solid concept", worthy of cost breaks, and the second one a "collection of powers and numbers", and logically should be more expensive. There are two great problems with that, though. First, for no better reason than difference of opinion and/or lack of imagination, one character will suffer in gameplay, since it'll be less powerful than the other. Second, it's pretty unimaginative to think the second character can't be unified by a great backstory.

If you start handing out free points to people with certain concepts, you squash creativity and variety, two things which are at the core of the HERO System.

On a totally unrelated note, regarding Life Support... I'm not sure immunities should be part of Life Support. What's the relationship between not having to breathe and being immune to poisons? Regarding immunities, again, I think they should be generic and wide-spectrum (i.e. immunity to poisons, immunity to diseases) rather than specific (e.g. immunity to cobra toxin, immunity to Epstein-Barr virus). Not only are specifics impossible to cost appropriately, they're also closely tied to campaign setting: there is no manticore poison in Star HERO, there is no radiation sickness in Fantasy HERO. Either do them generic and wide-spectrum, or give out guidelines for specifics (e.g. Immunity to an "annoying" disease = 1pt, +1pt if it's common).

[ajackson]

Okay, you're right. So, if we're talking about, say, 12d6 Mind Control, average roll 42.... average non-Mentalist PC has, say, 14 EGO.... we've hit EGO+20 there. Actually 28... so he's got 6 full Phases of being Mind Controlled.
Well, being mind controlled at the +0 level, which is rarely a big deal. The exciting stuff usually requires +20 or +30.

[Opal]

I wholeheartedly disagree. As I've said in the Characteristics thread (and as I'm sure you've read, hehe), having SFX directly affect game mechanics seems to me a hugely bad idea. I understand the purist veiwpoint, as I was once a proponent of it, myself. It would be satisfying in a game-desigin-philosphy sense, to have the mechanical aspects of the system so perflectly tuned and fair that they could model any abilty, for any character, in any genre, without reference to the F/X involved or the background and situations in the campaign. I used to say things like "Limitations should exist in a vaccum" because I felt there really /was/ a one 'right value' for any limitation.

It's a wonderful ideal to work towards, but Hero already goes a little farther in that direction than you can go and still have a fun, playable, accessable, and commercially very successful game. It takes a special breed of gamer to really understand, apreciate and enjoy the system, and there just aren't enough of us to make DoJ rich. ;)



Getting Mental Awareness from having any Mental Power, and getting a higher Mental Defense from having a higher EGO, assume certain SFXs and character conceptsYes, they do. They assume innate powers, for instance, which is what a power is until you put a focus or similar limitation on it. Again, while I understand the apeal - the elegance - of taking a power down to it's root axiomatic function, the best policy is to take it down only so far as the most prevelent representations of the power. It makes the game more accessible and easier to play.


Whether a character is "just a collection of powers and numbers" has nothing to do with which powers, characteristics, skills, talents, perks, or disadvantages he has (i.e. no mechanical basis), but rather with how they're explained (i.e. concept, backstory, etc.). In some cases there is a mechanical basis, as well. The game doesn't easily let you buy up defense against KAs without also buying up defense against normal attacks, just for one instance. Strong people who can lift a 100kg object more easily and throw it farther, can also throw thier own 100kg bodies farther (leap). There's actually an awful lot of basic consistency built into the rules. The more of it you take out, the more abstract, less intuitive, less playable, and less accessible the game becomes. It's a trade-off.


Consider two characters, both with EB, FF, and Flight. The first one defines his EB as "Fire Blast", his FF as "Shield of Flames", and his Flight as "flying like that Human Torch dude". The second one defines his EB as "I shoot plasma bolts from my eyes, because I'm an alien", his FF as "I'm surrounded by an aura of protection, because I'm a supermage", and his Flight as "the spirits of my ancestors lift me and carry me around". I'm pretty sure you'd call the first character a "solid concept", worthy of cost breaks, and the second one a "collection of powers and numbers", and logically should be more expensive. Yep. Not only is the first character one that can participate in a group adventure without having to showcase each of those three powers to establish his abilities, thus leaving more time and interest for his fellows, but he's also going to be hampered more consistently and less disruptive to plot lines. His powers will share common limitations that the GM can use against him when it benefits the story or he wants to give another character a chance to shine, and his powers will be drained or suppressed by the right adjustment powers. It would take a lot more to 'check' the powers of the second character - you'd have to get him in a high tech plasma dispersal field, anti-magic shell, and seal off the local ether from the spirit world. And, yeah, that should cost more, because it's a harder character to deal with, both as an advesary, and as a character in a campaign.




On a totally unrelated note, regarding Life Support... I'm not sure immunities should be part of Life Support. What's the relationship between not having to breathe and being immune to poisons? They both have to do with how your body interacts with chemicals? Oxygen is a chemical that typical characters need to breath, if you don't need to breath, you take life support, Phosgene is a chemical that most characters should avoid breathing, if it doesn't bother you, you take Life support. It makes a certain amount of sense. You could split it out, just like Dependence and Susceptibility are split out, though. You could have Life /Support/ only eliminate 'needs' your body has that normals normally have, and 'Immunity' only 'buy off' what amount to zero-point susceptibilities that everyone has. The distinction is arbitrary. Dependence and Susceptibility could be combined, LS could be broken down.


Regarding immunities, again, I think they should be generic and wide-spectrum (i.e. immunity to poisons, immunity to diseases) rather than specific (e.g. immunity to cobra toxin, immunity to Epstein-Barr virus).Certainly. Specific ones should be possible, and examples aren't a bad thing, but the GM would have to decide how 'common' they are to get a cost, just as with many limitations and disads.

[Tonio]

I understand the purist veiwpoint, as I was once a proponent of it, myself. It would be satisfying in a game-desigin-philosphy sense, to have the mechanical aspects of the system so perflectly tuned and fair that they could model any abilty, for any character, in any genre, without reference to the F/X involved or the background and situations in the campaign. I used to say things like "Limitations should exist in a vaccum" because I felt there really /was/ a one 'right value' for any limitation.

It's a wonderful ideal to work towards, but Hero already goes a little farther in that direction than you can go and still have a fun, playable, accessable, and commercially very successful game. It takes a special breed of gamer to really understand, apreciate and enjoy the system, and there just aren't enough of us to make DoJ rich. ;)

My reasons aren't simply "purity", though. In fact, it's mostly "flexibility" and "freedom". I remember having played DC Heroes and while the system wasn't so bad (I remember liking it, back then), I disliked how I couldn't really create a character I'd thought of. Enter HERO (well, Champions, back then)... I instantly fell in love with it, because I could build whatever I wanted! I'd like to keep that, and in fact, enhance it.



Yes, they do. They assume innate powers, for instance, which is what a power is until you put a focus or similar limitation on it. Again, while I understand the apeal - the elegance - of taking a power down to it's root axiomatic function, the best policy is to take it down only so far as the most prevelent representations of the power. It makes the game more accessible and easier to play.

"Most prevalent" may not be clear, though. For starters, it's genre-specific. Additionally, it might not be correct to go with the "most prevalent". A more correct approach would be to cover the most bases, kinda like how you don't design a chair for the most common body type, but rather so that it fits as many people (with differing body types) as possible.


In some cases there is a mechanical basis, as well. The game doesn't easily let you buy up defense against KAs without also buying up defense against normal attacks, just for one instance. Strong people who can lift a 100kg object more easily and throw it farther, can also throw thier own 100kg bodies farther (leap). There's actually an awful lot of basic consistency built into the rules. The more of it you take out, the more abstract, less intuitive, less playable, and less accessible the game becomes. It's a trade-off.

Well, defense against KAs vs defense against normal attacks... false dichotomy. There's a basic concept of "damage" against which you can buy defenses. The fact that KAs go against a subset of that defense is because it's inherently Advantaged (and in case you wonder, I do support eliminating both as separate powers).

The bundling of lifting/throwing capacity with leaping (and hth damage, etc.) is one I disagree with. Lifting/throwing I might live with, but I wouldn't mind seeing them separate, either.

I must insist, though, that that "basic consistency" you speak of is highly subjective, and can, in fact, be an inconsistency in many situations. And HERO is designed to have abstract mechanics; it's part of the core. Moving away from that, whether it has advantages or not, is moving away from the HERO system.


Yep. Not only is the first character one that can participate in a group adventure without having to showcase each of those three powers to establish his abilities, thus leaving more time and interest for his fellows, but he's also going to be hampered more consistently and less disruptive to plot lines. His powers will share common limitations that the GM can use against him when it benefits the story or he wants to give another character a chance to shine, and his powers will be drained or suppressed by the right adjustment powers. It would take a lot more to 'check' the powers of the second character - you'd have to get him in a high tech plasma dispersal field, anti-magic shell, and seal off the local ether from the spirit world. And, yeah, that should cost more, because it's a harder character to deal with, both as an advesary, and as a character in a campaign.

The first part speaks to purely narrative concerns; game mechanics shouldn't affect that.

As for the second part, the inherent disadvantages in having a common SFX for all your powers is balanced by the inherent advantages (being faced by a "Drain all Fire Powers" vs being hit with an "Aid all Fire Powers"). I don't think there should be a cost break for what's effectivly no limitation. Yes, it would take more to "check" the 2nd guy's powers, but it would also take more to boost them.


They both have to do with how your body interacts with chemicals. Oxygen is a chemical that typical characters need to breath, if you don't need to breath, you take life support, Phosgene is a chemical that most characters should avoid breathing, if it doesn't bother you, you take Life support. It makes a certain amount of sense. You could split it out, just like Dependence and Susceptibility are split out, though. You could have Life /Support/ only eliminate 'needs' your body has that normals normally have, and 'Immunity' only 'buy off' what amount to zero-point susceptibilities that everyone has. The distinction is arbitrary. Dependence and Susceptibility could be combined, LS could be broken down.

I think that's reaching... I could just as easily and logically claim that Life Support should include PD, since that's just how my body interacts with chemicals (obvious for chemical-based attacks, but even physical attacks have substance, and are therefor "chemicals").

I don't have a suceceptibility to Energy Blasts, just like I don't have one to poisons.

Dependency and Suceptibility could be folded, though. Dependency is just Suceptibility to the lack of something.


Certainly. Specific ones should be possible, and examples aren't a bad thing, but the GM would have to decide how 'common' they are to get a cost, just as with many limitations and disads.

Yup, and that's a good thing, I think. The concept (variable costs depending on frequency in campaign) is seen elsewhere; I think it's appropriate here.

[Opal]

My reasons aren't simply "purity", though. In fact, it's mostly "flexibility" and "freedom". I'm not going to argue with you about what your reasons really are, but, I'd ask you to stop and think: is there anything you really /can't/ do right now, because of the way the system is? Or is it that you find it kludgy or inellegant that some concepts are easier to build than others?


"Most prevalent" may not be clear, though. For starters, it's genre-specific. Mental powers work pretty similarly across genres. The will of the attacker and defender are generally key, for instance. They rarely produce blatantly visible effects (more often signs in the victims behavior - even in comics where they're illustrated, it's for the benefit of the reader, like the wavy lines of Spidey's danger sense). There are differences, certainly, so we have limitations and advantages to customize the powers. But, you need a starting point, and that point will always be arbitrary. Why not arbitrarily set it where it makes building characters easier for the most common archetypes and genre bits. A genre that handles something differently or more detailed can be addressed in it's own book.


Additionally, it might not be correct to go with the "most prevalent". A more correct approach would be to cover the most bases, A good point. With Hero, it is much easier to buy a power that does more than you want, and use open-ended limitations to customize it down to what you want. That aproach is also good for balance, if the powers in question have Apts that are consistent with the rest of the game.

Well, defense against KAs vs defense against normal attacks... false dichotomy. There's a basic concept of "damage" against which you can buy defenses. The fact that KAs go against a subset of that defense is because it's inherently Advantaged (and in case you wonder, I do support eliminating both as separate powers).


The bundling of lifting/throwing capacity with leaping (and hth damage, etc.) is one I disagree with.How does that bundling restrict you from building the character you want, though? You just buy STR, and limit-away whatever aspect you don't want. While, most concepts, where STR acts about like STR does in most dramatic paradigms, simply buy STR, instead of buying multiple closely related powers.


I must insist, though, that that "basic consistency" you speak of is highly subjective. And HERO is designed to have abstract mechanics; it's part of the core. Frankly, the level of abstraction you like in a game is subjective, too. Hero already is /more/ the way you like it, than the way most gamers like it (most gamers don't play Hero, afterall).


Moving away from that, whether it has advantages or not, is moving away from the HERO system.Currently, Hero has a level of abstraction, yes, but it does not completely divorce F/X and mechanics, and it does have many of it's powers and mechanics designed to fascilitate familiar archetypes and classic bits from certain genres (or common among multiple genres). Moving it to be more abstract is changing it, just as moving towards being less abstract would be.

[Scott Destroyer]

Hi there,

My thoughts on Steve's list:

Free Mental Awareness - Get rid of it.
Free Mental Defense points from EGO - Get rid of it.
Change Missile Deflection and Reflection - some changes probably inevitable; Reflection in particular problematic in most game systems I've seen it in.


On other issues:


Return of Regeneration - to me, unnecessary with proper changes to other Adjustment Powers; sorry McCoy... :)
Luck - I'd probably leave as-is, even if some other probability-manipulation power debuted, UNLESS a "hero point" system were added to the game.
Mental Powers and effects - I'd leave Mental Powers as-is with the massive exception of the Breakout Roll. It's nerfed mentalists hard, with no adjustment at all in the point costs of Mental Powers. I'd not want it to be eliminated entirely, but I do think the roll should be Contested and/or made at an additional penalty equal to the amount by which the mentalist succeeded on his ECV Attack Roll. Classes of minds might be clarified, too; I think all humanoid fantasy races and aliens with psychology even remotely similar to human should count as Human; Alien should be reserved for non-humanoid or truly alien minds (Palainians, Hortas, Elder Worms, etc.). BOECV is a seperate issue I'll probably get around to in the Advantages thread.
Adders for +X results for Mental Powers - Sounds good, but in addition to the current rules rather than in place of them, since it eliminates chance of failure. In fact, one could do something very similar now, with the Standard Effect Rule.
Life Support - Seems OK as-is, though the proposed changes seem OK too.

[Hugh Neilson]

Return of Regeneration - to me, unnecessary with proper changes to other Adjustment Powers; sorry McCoy... :)

Although I'm OK with the present model, the various threads propose to retain a number of powers which could be built with other powers for simplicity and intuitiveness. It seems to me that Regeneration is a common enough ability in the source material to justify this type of treatment. Perhaps "not going back to a prior edition's approach" as another sacred cow that needs to become hamburger.

[BobGreenwade]

Adders for +X results for Mental Powers - Sounds good, but in addition to the current rules rather than in place of them, since it eliminates chance of failure. In fact, one could do something very similar now, with the Standard Effect Rule.I probably should point out that I intended for it to be this way (an additional option rather than a replacement for what's there now).

[Zephrosyne]

Well, I don't have anything to add to the areas you mentioned that haven't already been suggested or opined on by someone else. However, can you do something with Power Defense. The power just seems entirely too catch-all. It was almost like "this covers whatever is left after Physical Defense, Energy Defense, Mental Defense, and Flash Defense." I don't have a solution or anything remotely resembling a better idea. I just wanted to give you my opinion.

[rjcurrie]

Well, I don't have anything to add to the areas you mentioned that haven't already been suggested or opined on by someone else. However, can you do something with Power Defense. The power just seems entirely too catch-all. It was almost like "this covers whatever is left after Physical Defense, Energy Defense, Mental Defense, and Flash Defense." I don't have a solution or anything remotely resembling a better idea. I just wanted to give you my opinion.

I've always viewed Power Defense as how well the body (or object) resists being changed. Just my point of view.

[Tonio]

Gah... the quoting got all mangled here. Some of that is mine, some is yours. =/

Anyway, I was gonna reply to some of this, but decided against it. I don't feel good about arguing this decoupling issue across multiple threads! :)


I'm not going to argue with you about what your reasons really are, but, I'd ask you to stop and think: is there anything you really /can't/ do right now, because of the way the system is? Or is it that you find it kludgy or inellegant that some concepts are easier to build than others?

Mental powers work pretty similarly across genres. The will of the attacker and defender are generally key, for instance. They rarely produce blatantly visible effects (more often signs in the victims behavior - even in comics where they're illustrated, it's for the benefit of the reader, like the wavy lines of Spidey's danger sense). There are differences, certainly, so we have limitations and advantages to customize the powers. But, you need a starting point, and that point will always be arbitrary. Why not arbitrarily set it where it makes building characters easier for the most common archetypes and genre bits. A genre that handles something differently or more detailed can be addressed in it's own book.

A good point. With Hero, it is much easier to buy a power that does more than you want, and use open-ended limitations to customize it down to what you want. That aproach is also good for balance, if the powers in question have Apts that are consistent with the rest of the game.

Well, defense against KAs vs defense against normal attacks... false dichotomy. There's a basic concept of "damage" against which you can buy defenses. The fact that KAs go against a subset of that defense is because it's inherently Advantaged (and in case you wonder, I do support eliminating both as separate powers).

How does that bundling restrict you from building the character you want, though? You just buy STR, and limit-away whatever aspect you don't want. While, most concepts, where STR acts about like STR does in most dramatic paradigms, simply buy STR, instead of buying multiple closely related powers.

Frankly, the level of abstraction you like in a game is subjective, too. Hero already is /more/ the way you like it, than the way most gamers like it (most gamers don't play Hero, afterall).

Currently, Hero has a level of abstraction, yes, but it does not completely divorce F/X and mechanics, and it does have many of it's powers and mechanics designed to fascilitate familiar archetypes and classic bits from certain genres (or common among multiple genres). Moving it to be more abstract is changing it, just as moving towards being less abstract would be.





The first part speaks to purely narrative concerns; game mechanics shouldn't affect that.

As for the second part, the inherent disadvantages in having a common SFX for all your powers is balanced by the inherent advantages (being faced by a "Drain all Fire Powers" vs being hit with an "Aid all Fire Powers"). I don't think there should be a cost break for what's effectivly no limitation. Yes, it would take more to "check" the 2nd guy's powers, but it would also take more to boost them.



I think that's reaching... I could just as easily and logically claim that Life Support should include PD, since that's just how my body interacts with chemicals (obvious for chemical-based attacks, but even physical attacks have substance, and are therefor "chemicals").

I don't have a suceceptibility to Energy Blasts, just like I don't have one to poisons.

Dependency and Suceptibility could be folded, though. Dependency is just Suceptibility to the lack of something.



Yup, and that's a good thing, I think. The concept (variable costs depending on frequency in campaign) is seen elsewhere; I think it's appropriate here.

[Tonio]

I've always viewed Power Defense as how well the body (or object) resists being changed. Just my point of view.

Yeah, I think the problem with Power Defense is its name. Change it to "Adjustment Defense" or something.

[Opal]

Gah... the quoting got all mangled here. Some of that is mine, some is yours. =/Sorry 'bout that. Fixed.

[SAVeira]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

Yes. Never really believed in this "freebie".


Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

Yes, unless you end Figured Characteristics. If PD & ED stay the same, then so should MD. Oh and it really should be a Characteristic.


Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

Yes. As for how, I am not sure.

[dsatow]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

I wouldn't mind this. Nothing else really does this. I have EB fire powers, it doesn't give me IR for free. And the sense is cheap.


Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

I think so. Too many people generally buy down thier ego because it not "useful".


Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

Personally, I think if you give it an advantage to use it without the half phase delay but still treat it as an action (making it like block) it would be cooler. I'd give the advantage a 1/2 advantage.

[Tech]

Multiform. I've read so many threads/debates/etc about how it's broken, the cost isn't quite right, it costs too little (to which I agree). I've read through the Ultimate Metamorph and whereas it goes into some details, it is merely adding it's suggestions and ideas based upon a power which doesn't feel solidly built. I do believe the power is a godsend and is needed. However, the power seems to be in it's it's infancy and has room to grow and change.

[The Main Man]

Perhaps Multiform (and Duplication for that matter) should be folded into Summon.

I agree that Mental Awareness should not be free but Mental Defense should get free EGO or else make it cheaper.

[James Gillen]

Although I'm OK with the present model, the various threads propose to retain a number of powers which could be built with other powers for simplicity and intuitiveness. It seems to me that Regeneration is a common enough ability in the source material to justify this type of treatment. Perhaps "not going back to a prior edition's approach" as another sacred cow that needs to become hamburger.

Some cows are more sacred than others. ;)

JG

[Sean Waters]

Class of mind idea:

1. You have to define your class of mind when you build the character. The default is 'Human'

2. There should be a number of classes of mind defined for every game: Animal, Machine, Human, Alien, for example. You can have more, or less. Up to you.

3. In a given campaign all mental powers affect all classes of mind and all defences apply to all attacks from any class of mind.

4. 'Only v attacks from the X class of mind' as a limitation on defence varies. in a standard campaign where the most common attacker will be a human class, the following limitations apply:

X = Human -1/4
X = Alien or animal or machine = -1
X = Human + any other class = -0
X = 2 non human classes = -1/2
X = 3 non-human classes = -1/4

These values may vary with campaign depending on relative frequency of classes of mind with mental powers.

5. 'Only to affect the X class of mind' as a limitation on attacks works with similar values.

That way we still have a class of mind mechanic, but everyone has to pay for defences - you just get a discount in appropriate situations. If you are defining and building an alien charcter you should seriously think about mental defences against non-alien mental attacks. You don't get freebies, but you can get appropriate cost breaks.

[Pteryx]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

Steve’s Thoughts: In the spirit of removing the concept of Figured Characteristics, it would be consistent to remove this “freebie” from Mental Powers. I won’t say I’m totally sold on it, but it’s definitely worth considering.

Mental Awareness is cheap enough that I don't care either way.


Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

I feel you should get EGO/5 Mental Defense (or 2 Mental Defense, if you remove Figured) for free without having to jump through the hoop of buying another point of it.


Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

I'd like it if it were just Deflection & Reflection -- no "Missile" attached. You can choose between Melee, Ranged, and Mental, and also between Physical and Energy for the former two.

Powers not listed: I'd like it if the rules for Mental Powers were written more clearly and engagingly. I found them more obtuse than the rest of the book. -- Pteryx

[Doctor Agenda]

Immunity to All Terrestrial Diseases should be just Immunity to all Disease, even against space cooties. You can always come up with new biological hazards (what about interdimensional cooties?), at some point you should be able to say you've got Immunity to Disease covered, especially since you can always just say Immunity to All Disease doesn't work against these particular interdimensional space cooties. Just make them NND interdimensional space cooties that you have to have 10 points of Power/Adjustment Defense or maybe at least a 13 Ego to be immune to, if you REALLY want to 'get at' the person who wants their character to be immune to all diseases instead of just terrestrial ones. Why should the default for extraterrestrial diseases be that they bypass superhumanly robust immune systems anyway? We may not have evolved to stop them, but they didn't evolve to attack us either, normally it should be a wash (he says, apologizing for bringing up a topic as speculative as exoimmunology) except for GM Specials. Frankly I've never been in a game where Immunity to Disease was all that useful in the first place, apparently there are not many GMs who like to inflict diseases on PCs. When it does come up, 10 points spent on being immune to disease should cover you. Same goes for extraterrestrial or interdimensional poisons. If you don't want Immunity to work against them, just don't let it.

[Vondy]

Immunity to All Terrestrial Diseases should be just Immunity to all Disease, even against space cooties. You can always come up with new biological hazards (what about interdimensional cooties?), at some point you should be able to say you've got Immunity to Disease covered, especially since you can always just say Immunity to All Disease doesn't work against these particular interdimensional space cooties. Just make them NND interdimensional space cooties that you have to have 10 points of Power/Adjustment Defense or maybe at least a 13 Ego to be immune to, if you REALLY want to 'get at' the person who wants their character to be immune to all diseases instead of just terrestrial ones. Why should the default for extraterrestrial diseases be that they bypass superhumanly robust immune systems anyway? We may not have evolved to stop them, but they didn't evolve to attack us either, normally it should be a wash (he says, apologizing for bringing up a topic as speculative as exoimmunology) except for GM Specials. Frankly I've never been in a game where Immunity to Disease was all that useful in the first place, apparently there are not many GMs who like to inflict diseases on PCs. When it does come up, 10 points spent on being immune to disease should cover you. Same goes for extraterrestrial or interdimensional poisons. If you don't want Immunity to work against them, just don't let it.

I think the issue here is to abstract it. Instead of defining the level with actual diseases or groups of diseases, it should be defined by how comprehensive it is for the campaign in question. For instance: 10 Points = Total Immunity; 8 Points = Near Total Immunity (i.e., all terrestrial diseases in a campaign where alien diseases are rare (or may only come up as a plot device once or twice)).

[Doctor Agenda]

I think the issue here is to abstract it. Instead of defining the level with actual diseases or groups of diseases, it should be defined by how comprehensive it is for the campaign in question. For instance: 10 Points = Total Immunity; 8 Points = Near Total Immunity (i.e., all terrestrial diseases in a campaign where alien diseases are rare (or may only come up as a plot device once or twice)).

That sounds reasonable. It WAS fairly reasonable as is until Galactic Champions came out, but something you can tailor to your campaign would be an improvement. Admittedly, I've never been in a game where the Galactic Champions Life Support rules were used or were an issue.

In my own games I once used malaria as a possible hazard in a Pulp setting, and once used a villain with disease powers in a Champions setting so the player would get some use out of the points they spent on being immune to disease. I also threw in a villain with aging attacks once for an immortal character for the same reason. I probably wouldn't have used them if there wasn't a player who spent points in those areas. Incidentally, I also go out of my way to kill characters with the Resurrection option at least once. :)

[SSgt Baloo]

... Incidentally, I also go out of my way to kill characters with the Resurrection option at least once. :)

Why, how thoughtful! :eg:

[Andrew_A]

Originally posted by Eternal Sage

i for one would REALLY like to see the mechanic for Telepathy (and Mind Control, and PRE Attacks) be completely taken out, and replaced with something that doesn't seem quite so out of place.

for instance: these powers still give you a number of d6, and they still get compared to EGO, however if "Normal Damage" from the dice beats EGO you get the most basic effect, if the "Normal BODY Damage" is greater than EGO then you get the advanced effect. Mental Def acts like normal Def in this case (reducing the effect) and could even get a Resistant MD option.

or something different. this is one of my wife's biggest pet peeves, and one she claims makes mentalists nigh unplayable. i agree that the current system makes these powers confusing and they feel tacked on. my two coppers


One possible solution to "fixing" the Mental Powers problem would be to treat Mental Powers just like Images. Basically, you make your attack roll and they resist with an Ego roll. The target would get bonuses depending on how powerful the effect was and the more points spent on the power, the harder it is to resist. If you wanted to make the fight less certain, you could use Megaplayboy's suggestion and make it a contested roll; the attacker's Ego vs. the deffender's.

This would make Mental Powers a little simpler and make low powered/high Ego Mentalists a little scarier. They would be much more effective against mooks, while the important villains would have high Egos anyway. Besides, if you make Ego cheaper (as proposed in the Characteristics thread) this rules change would allow Mentalists to remain deadly.

[CTaylor]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

Yes.

Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

If you made mental defense a stat, this wouldn't be an issue, and I'd prefer that solution.

Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

I'm fine with the system as is, but I'd add this:

There's no reflection power in the game and there should be. It's part of the source material in several different genres and a horrific pain in the patootie to build in Hero.

[Doctor Agenda]

Why, how thoughtful! :eg:

I try. It's especially dramatic if the other players don't know the hero has a get out of death free card...they're likely to throw something when they find out, though!

[PhilFleischmann]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?
No. And there are good genre/sorce material reasons for removing this freebie. True, most superhero mentalists have Mental Awareness, but this isn't the case in other genres. A fantasy wizard might have a fear spell, or a charm spell, or an all-purpose mind control spell, but that doesn't mean he automatically senses when those or other mental spells are cast by others in the area. A Mental Power is not always an ability that is "native" to the persons mind, but could be a spell (for example) that is called forth only when the character wants to use it.


Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?
Campaign dependent. Toolkit, remember? It's not just a toolkit for building characters, but for building worlds and games. As a default, in most genres, it probably shouldn't. But in psi-heavy games, of just about any genre, it could. Leave it up to the GM. And give some "default" advice for various types of games.

[PhilFleischmann]

To expand on this and sugest an idea

Regeneration becomes its own power, but mechanicaly somewhat different from what we have seen before.

Base regeneration is a step down on the time chart, so, and I am throwing this out there with out balanceing it so points may be off, for 10 points you would recover your REC in body per week, for 20 points it is per day, 30 points it is every 5 hours, 40 points it is every hour, 50 would be every 20 min, 60 every 5 min, 70 every minute, 80 would be every turn (the maximum allowed without GM approval). Current healer adders would be included and take that long to become effective (In theroy you could buy it at the 0 point level for the adders). So at the 10 point level you will resurect in a week.
I wouldn't mind Regen becoming a separate power again, but the 4th Ed price was too high, and so is the above cost. I think the 5th Ed price is about right at 7.2727...

But 10 points for REC/Week is way too much. 80 points for REC/turn is probably about right. You've got a linear cost for an exponential benefit. How 'bout like this:

80 points for REC/Turn
40 points for REC/minute
20 points for REC/5 Minutes
10 points for REC/20 Minutes
5 points for REC/hour
3 points for REC/5 hours
2 points for REC/day
1 point for REC/week

That seems a little more appropriate for the utility, IMO. Remember that anything less than REC/minute is not going to be useful in combat. And many combats will be less than a minute.

[Opal]

80 pts for per turn seems excessive. Would it really be better than 3/4 damage reduction or a 30/30 FF?

BOD damage is serious, of course, but it's pretty cheap to prevent, and BOD isn't all that expensive, either.

I like 5 pts per level on the time chart, with various adders.

REC/recover action, per phase, or per segment, OTOH, could rightly be quite expensive.

[PhilFleischmann]

80 pts for per turn seems excessive. Would it really be better than 3/4 damage reduction or a 30/30 FF?
Good point. On further reflection, you're right. 80 points is too much.


I like 5 pts per level on the time chart, with various adders.
The problem with a fixed cost per level on the time chart is that it will never be balanced at all levels. It will always be either too cheap at REC/turn or too expensive at REC/week. At 5/level, that's still 10 points for REC/day, which is still not useful enough for 10 points. 25 points for REC/20 minutes is way too much for an out-of-combat regeneration power.

[CTaylor]

I would like to see Regenerate start at per phase rather than per turn. Make it really expensive if you must, but it's pretty much a non issue in combat as is, and out of combat is healing fast really a big issue for anyone?

[Vondy]

Multiform. I've read so many threads/debates/etc about how it's broken, the cost isn't quite right, it costs too little (to which I agree). I've read through the Ultimate Metamorph and whereas it goes into some details, it is merely adding it's suggestions and ideas based upon a power which doesn't feel solidly built. I do believe the power is a godsend and is needed. However, the power seems to be in it's it's infancy and has room to grow and change.

One option: do it with a VPP or EC. One power is shapeshift, with the other powers being determined as needed from the VPP, or as slots in the EC.

[Vondy]

I would like to see Regenerate start at per phase rather than per turn. Make it really expensive if you must, but it's pretty much a non issue in combat as is, and out of combat is healing fast really a big issue for anyone?

Some of this is narrative style. It can be important if players are able to break off the combat for a minute or two, or if both sides are in circumstances or a state of mind that dictate caution (and thus taking time to pinpoint, out-maneuver their opponents. The actual style of combat that comes out isn't one that sits well with a let of media, let alone reality. Another thing to consider is how much non-combat time is covered in a session. Characters with regeneration will typically be up and running within minutes of getting otherwise mortally wounded. That can impact the narrative tempo of the game and how events unfold. Even a somewhat slower regen (a few hours) can have those kinds of effects. Not everything that is important happens in combat.

[CTaylor]

While that's all true, the mechanics matter as well, and regeneration that heals far too slowly to actually make a difference in combat isn't really worth the points for bad guys in lethal games. It's just a flavor issue, and I can do that with GM descriptions without worrying about buying the powers.

[James Gillen]

One option: do it with a VPP or EC. One power is shapeshift, with the other powers being determined as needed from the VPP, or as slots in the EC.

That's how I do it.

JG

[CTaylor]

I built my metamorph guy with a multiform-only Variable Power Pool. Technically the rules say "don't," but that lets you make "animal man" who can shift into any animal in the book, with a book of animals nearby. Anyone up to x power level, he can be.

[GamePhil]

Cross-posting for your consumption.


This is where a Manipulation mechanic would resolve some issues.

New Power Discussion: Manipulation

Just some thoughts about what a Manipulation Power would need:
Effective Number Of Limbs: Pretty self-explanatory, however some creatures might grow new limbs at will or have energy manipulation powers that take on characteristics of limbs. Currently, the cost is a flat 5 for any number of limbs, and that may still be a good upper limit depending on other factors.
Fineness: Say, Very Clumsy to Very Fine. Very Clumsy might work like a Side Effect, that the character does STR damage to things he tries to manipulate, while Very Fine is finer than human hands, possibly giving a small bonus to some actions.
Reach: How far away you can manipulate objects.
Independence: How much limbs can act independently of what the other limbs are doing. This might allow different limbs to do different Combat Maneuvers to different targets, for example, if bought high enough.

A write-up like this might go so far as to replace Telekinesis, if Reach could be made far enough, in which case it might also need STR. Not sure yet exactly how that would work, though.

So, a human would start with 2 limbs with Fine Manipulation and 3 (including the head) with Average Manipulation, generally with a 2m Reach and average Independence. This would cost no points, much like Senses. If the Power were written up, I'm imagining this would cost between 5 and 10 points for the human starting ability.

[Sketchpad]

Return of Regeneration - to me, unnecessary with proper changes to other Adjustment Powers; sorry McCoy... :)
I kind of like Healing ... but then, I usually used simplified healing for superhero games and BODY healing for heroic games. Just always seems that Sim. Healing is more Superheroic in nature ... allowing players to emulate many regenerating heroes.


Luck - I'd probably leave as-is, even if some other probability-manipulation power debuted, UNLESS a "hero point" system were added to the game.

I think the rules that Scott uses in Gestalt are a better representation of Luck and could be easily adapted as a mainstay.

[Opal]

A write-up like this might go so far as to replace Telekinesis, if Reach could be made far enough, in which case it might also need STR. Not sure yet exactly how that would work, though.Sounds like it might replace Stretching. It could be an adder to TK, I suppose.

[Kagetatsu]

Perhaps Multiform (and Duplication for that matter) should be folded into Summon.
Not sure about that. The main thing wrong with Multiform, surely, is that only one form pays the cost. And you never have to play that form.

[Mini-Nukette]

Suggestion for Multiform:

Transform Self
Type: Standard Power/Body-Affecting Power
Duration: Persistent
Range: Self
Costs END: No
Cost: 5 CP for every Character Point in the alternate form

The character can change his original form into one or more alternate forms. Each alternate form costs 5 CP for every Character Point it is built with (including points from Disadvantages).
Alternate forms gain a Transform Self Power for 0 CP which enables the return to the original form. Additionally, they may take a Transform Self Power for a set 5 CP each for one or more of the other alternate forms that the character may have taken. This enables the character to change to those alternate forms without first needing to return to their original shape.
Changing form requires a Half Phase. Any STUN and BODY damage taken, and END used, are not lost and carry over to the next form.

For example, Swift Owl is a shaman who can transform himself into a white winter owl and a wolf (his player took Transform Self: White Winter Owl, and Transform Self: Wolf). Swift Owl's alternate owl and wolf forms gain Transform Self: Original Form for free letting him turn back into a human. When building the alternate forms, Swift Owl's player can spend 5 CP on either or both enabling him to transform from Owl to Wolf and/or vice versa.

[Doctor Agenda]

Good point. On further reflection, you're right. 80 points is too much.


The problem with a fixed cost per level on the time chart is that it will never be balanced at all levels. It will always be either too cheap at REC/turn or too expensive at REC/week. At 5/level, that's still 10 points for REC/day, which is still not useful enough for 10 points. 25 points for REC/20 minutes is way too much for an out-of-combat regeneration power.

It seemed to work pretty good at 10 points per Bod per Turn. It's a steady rate, so it's balanced at all levels. If it's too expensive, change it to 5 points per Bod per Turn. Moving it down the time chart makes it inexpensive enough that it gets down to a point or two quickly, which is appropriate for the flavor trait Regen becomes at the per Day or per Week level.

[The Main Man]

Not sure about that. The main thing wrong with Multiform, surely, is that only one form pays the cost. And you never have to play that form.
Perhaps Reversion should be built into Multi-form to balance that issue.

Another thing that I got to thinking about (check the time of this post when reading this however) is what if Missile Deflection were turned into either a Martial Maneuver or an Optional Maneuver?

[Hugh Neilson]

Another thing that I got to thinking about (check the time of this post when reading this however) is what if Missile Deflection were turned into either a Martial Maneuver or an Optional Maneuver?

I'd prefer making it a series of adders to the Block (or Martial Block) maneuver. "Block ranged attacks"; "Reflect attacks blocked at attacker"; "Reflect attacks blocked at any target within attack's range".

[The Main Man]

I'd prefer making it a series of adders to the Block (or Martial Block) maneuver. "Block ranged attacks"; "Reflect attacks blocked at attacker"; "Reflect attacks blocked at any target within attack's range".

That does make more sense.

I picture it being either a skill or a talent that must specify whether it affects energy or physical ranged attacks, but at the final level it affects both.

[CTaylor]

Not sure about that. The main thing wrong with Multiform, surely, is that only one form pays the cost. And you never have to play that form.

How about an adder to each form 5 points for each form you can shift into from that one?

[casualplayer]

Might not hear this often but please nerf or eliminate Mental Illusions. I would like it to be essentially Images based on ECV, IPE to everything but Sense/Detect Mental Powers. Any damage dealing or Darkness/Flash simulating related abilities should be represented with additional power buys linked to the Mental Illusions power. As the power is currently constructed, either you run roughshod over the game or the GM neuters you because of the vagueness of the power description.

I would like to see REC become the method for determing how quickly diminished characteristics return to benchmark and both Healing and Regen turned into a REC Aid or just modified REC, similar to what was suggested before. Go Opal!

Missile Deflection is that pesky 100% Damage Reduction RSR and I sure would like it jettisoned or modified into something scalable. Deflecting arrows should not necessarily mean I can deflect both Robin Hood's and Artemis' shots unless a proportionate amount of points was invested.

I would like to see environmental damage defined and characters buy defenses able to blunt or withstand it rather than continue with the scurrilous nature of Life Support. Most environmental damage is KAs and Drains so rDEF and Power DEF should be sufficient, maybe with an italicised power descriptor Life Support.

Anything that encourages sell-back is munchkin-nip and should be eliminated from the game and that especially includes free Mental Awareness.

Everything but Ego Attack falls into this alphabet range (and Ego Attack will too after you rename it) so here is where I ask that you please remove the Class of Minds handicap from mental powers. It allows character background to act as defense, which is the slipperiest of slopes.

[Chris Goodwin]

Might not hear this often but please nerf or eliminate Mental Illusions. I would like it to be essentially Images based on ECV, IPE to everything but Sense/Detect Mental Powers. Any damage dealing or Darkness/Flash simulating related abilities should be represented with additional power buys linked to the Mental Illusions power. As the power is currently constructed, either you run roughshod over the game or the GM neuters you because of the vagueness of the power description.

I've started a thread in 6e on Mental Powers, with Steve's permission. Part of what we're working on is this very thing.

[casualplayer]

I've started a thread in 6e on Mental Powers, with Steve's permission. Part of what we're working on is this very thing.

Yeah, I never know where to respond and I'm too lazy to be thorough like Edsel. Is it too late to recategorize discussions into Standard, Mental, Adjustment and Special powers?

[palaskar]

Q: Should Mental Powers provide Mental Awareness for free?

After a bit of thought, no. Mental Powers based on Con wouldn’t, so why should all Mental Power have Mental Awareness?

Q: Should Mental Defense provide EGO/5 in defense for free?

No, not unless you want everybody in the campaign to have a base EGO/5 defense. Otherwise, it’s just free points.

Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

Urgh. You can always buy Armor, Gestures, possibly with a Focus for Deflection. Ranged Block could be a good way to represent it.

But anybody should not be able to do it, at least not easily. How many RL people do you know that can missile deflect. (In my case, one, a karate master who could do “arrow cutting,” IIRC – cutting arrows out of the air with his sword.)

If you want to simulate blocking, say, ordinary things being thrown at you, just attribute that to DCV. Why do people have a free rating to avoid attacks? This seems to be one of them.

But Reflection’s a bitch to represent. EB/RKA, up to the amount of the original attack, sometimes Indirect (to represent Reflection “at range.”) The trick, of course, is getting enough EB/RKA…and what if it’s NND,AVLD, or AP, or Penetrating…?

Reflection deserves its own writeup because of this. Possibly Deflection as well…how do you simulate Batman dodging Darkseid’s Omega beams? (Writing up the Omega Beams is a whole ‘nother can of worms…probably No Range Modifier, Fully Indirect, Extradimenisonal (everything), Explosive (only to counteract Dodge for Cover. And NND or AVLD, of course.)

Life Support: The limited resistances to poisons and diseases should be Heroic-only. Supers should be able to buy 10-point “immue to all diseases” and “immune to all toxins.” This is because limited resistances would probably only come up in a Heroic campaign, IMHO.

Luck: As per Fred. The BBB required much larger Luck and Unluck rolls to simulate the comics – 3 sixes for something really bad to happen, which was often.

[CTaylor]

LIFE SUPPORT: I like palaskar's thoughts above on this power.

MENTAL DEFENSE: I support having this as a default (like physical defense and energy defense) of EGO/5. It makes sense and it helps prevent mentalists from casually controlling the world.

MENTAL POWERS: At present mentalists are ridiculously powerful against normal targets and worthless against each other. This is too absolute, I understand there's some effort to change that with ultimate mentalist, but this is such a central part of the rules it seems like it ought to be in the main rules, not in an additional sourcebook.

REGENERATION: Bring back old-style regen. The present style bends the healing rules and takes as much (or more) time to explain as the original power. An (expensive) option for regen that is faster than once a turn would be good as well.

[Gary]

Luck: 3 pts for every 2 pts of Luck usable per day. Before any 3d6 roll, you declare how many pts of Luck you're willing to spend. If the Luck makes a difference in the roll, the roll succeeds or fails depending on the Luck holder’s choice and the pts are spent, otherwise no Luck pts are spent. You can use Luck on any 3d6 roll either for your own roll or if you’re opposing someone else’s roll.

Example:

Luck God has spent 30 pts for 20 pts of Luck. He desperately wants to hit Dr Doofus with an attack and declares he’s willing to spend 5 pts of Luck. His OCV is 8 and DD’s DCV is 10. He normally needs to roll a 9- to hit. If he rolls 9- or 15+, the Luck has made no difference to the roll and no Luck pts are spent. If he rolls 10-14, the Luck has made the difference in the attack and the Luck pts are spent. LG would have 15 pts left for the rest of the day.

If both attacker and defender declare Luck pts, the pts are spent and cancelled on a 1 for 1 basis up to the lesser amount. The side with higher Luck then applies any excess toward the roll. Both sides write down how many Luck pts they’re declaring before the dice are rolled.

Example:

Luck God now wants to attack Lady Luck. He again declares 5 pts, but Lady Luck declares 8 pts on defense. Both sides lose 5 pts of luck and LL has 3 pts declared toward her defense. So if both OCV and DCV were 8, then a 8- or 12+ results in no Luck pts spent and a roll of 9-11 results in a miss and the remaining 3 Luck pts expended.

If Luck is placed in a multipower or VPP and is spent, that many pts of the MP or VPP’s reserve is lost until the Luck regenerates.

At the GM discretion, he can disallow Luck from applying to any roll where Luck should not apply.

[Tonio]

Luck: 3 pts for every 2 pts of Luck usable per day. Before any 3d6 roll, you declare how many pts of Luck you're willing to spend. If the Luck makes a difference in the roll, the roll succeeds or fails depending on the Luck holder’s choice and the pts are spent, otherwise no Luck pts are spent. You can use Luck on any 3d6 roll either for your own roll or if you’re opposing someone else’s roll.

Example:

Luck God has spent 30 pts for 20 pts of Luck. He desperately wants to hit Dr Doofus with an attack and declares he’s willing to spend 5 pts of Luck. His OCV is 8 and DD’s DCV is 10. He normally needs to roll a 9- to hit. If he rolls 9- or 15+, the Luck has made no difference to the roll and no Luck pts are spent. If he rolls 10-14, the Luck has made the difference in the attack and the Luck pts are spent. LG would have 15 pts left for the rest of the day.

If both attacker and defender declare Luck pts, the pts are spent and cancelled on a 1 for 1 basis up to the lesser amount. The side with higher Luck then applies any excess toward the roll. Both sides write down how many Luck pts they’re declaring before the dice are rolled.

Example:

Luck God now wants to attack Lady Luck. He again declares 5 pts, but Lady Luck declares 8 pts on defense. Both sides lose 5 pts of luck and LL has 3 pts declared toward her defense. So if both OCV and DCV were 8, then a 8- or 12+ results in no Luck pts spent and a roll of 9-11 results in a miss and the remaining 3 Luck pts expended.

If Luck is placed in a multipower or VPP and is spent, that many pts of the MP or VPP’s reserve is lost until the Luck regenerates.

At the GM discretion, he can disallow Luck from applying to any roll where Luck should not apply.

I dunno... I like the "lucky things happen to your character, in general" aspect of the current Luck power (which your proposal doesn't include), and what you're proposing is doable right now with Overall Levels and Charges. =)

[nexus]

I dunno... I like the "lucky things happen to your character, in general" aspect of the current Luck power (which your proposal doesn't include), and what you're proposing is doable right now with Overall Levels and Charges. =)

I agree while it might be vague, Luck (generally) is vague. SFX could get that across but it still seems to lose some flavor.

Overall comment: I've noticed a general drive to formally codify allot of effects in this forum. That's often a good things but making too many things "hardwired" is going to cost at least a little flavor and maybe aggravate some other complaints about Hero System; specifically that's it's "vanilla" and the density of the rules.

[Tonio]

Well, my view is that the Luck Power shouldn't be used as a substitute for the Luck SFX. This, of course, applies too all Powers and SFXs, but I think it's common enough with Luck to point out. The Luck Power shouldn't give you extra DCV, or defenses, or help you perform better. Those are Combat Levels, Combat Luck, and Overall Levels, with the Luck SFX. The Luck Power is fine as it is, maybe could use some tweaking and be defined better, but the concept of random beneficial events favoring the character has a place in HERO. I don't think it should be done away with.

[nexus]

Well, my view is that the Luck Power shouldn't be used as a substitute for the Luck SFX. This, of course, applies too all Powers and SFXs, but I think it's common enough with Luck to point out. The Luck Power shouldn't give you extra DCV, or defenses, or help you perform better. Those are Combat Levels, Combat Luck, and Overall Levels, with the Luck SFX. The Luck Power is fine as it is, maybe could use some tweaking and be defined better, but the concept of random beneficial events favoring the character has a place in HERO. I don't think it should be done away with.

I meant that Gary's suggestion could have sfx that make it Luck but I feel the Luck power as it is should stick around even thought it is somewhat fiat driven. It even has uses beyond "luck sfx". I think we're in agreement but you can never tell online :)

[Tonio]

I meant that Gary's suggestion could have sfx that make it Luck but I feel the Luck power as it is should stick around even thought it is somewhat fiat driven. It even has uses beyond "luck sfx". I think we're in agreement but you can never tell online :)

We are! I guess my post seemed argumentative... sorry. I didn't mean to argue against your point/post.

[Gary]

I dunno... I like the "lucky things happen to your character, in general" aspect of the current Luck power (which your proposal doesn't include), and what you're proposing is doable right now with Overall Levels and Charges. =)

You can't really do it properly with Overall Levels and Charges. Charges max out at -2 even though for something like Overall Levels, it decreases the utility by a lot more than any points you might save. A character tends to use an Overall Level many more times than they would use just about anything else.

If you cost it out, it would be something like +1 Overall Level can use a maximum of once (-1.5) (It's not a full -2 limitation since the Luck isn't used up unless it makes a difference in the 3d6 roll). The final cost would be 4 pts for a 1 shot overall level which is frankly way too expensive for what you would get.

[Tonio]

You can't really do it properly with Overall Levels and Charges. Charges max out at -2 even though for something like Overall Levels, it decreases the utility by a lot more than any points you might save. A character tends to use an Overall Level many more times than they would use just about anything else.

If you cost it out, it would be something like +1 Overall Level can use a maximum of once (-1.5) (It's not a full -2 limitation since the Luck isn't used up unless it makes a difference in the 3d6 roll). The final cost would be 4 pts for a 1 shot overall level which is frankly way too expensive for what you would get.

If so (I'm not convinced yet), then that's a problem with pricing. Either Overall levels are too expensive, or Charges at that level don't give enough of a cost break. The mechanics are there, though.

[ajackson]

If so (I'm not convinced yet), then that's a problem with pricing. Either Overall levels are too expensive, or Charges at that level don't give enough of a cost break.
Overall levels are most certainly not too expensive, they're arguably too cheap. Charges not giving enough of a cost break is a plausible objection, however; it's typically very inefficient to buy any power on one charge unless it's a power you're really only going to need once (such as certain types of teleportation).

[Gary]

If so (I'm not convinced yet), then that's a problem with pricing. Either Overall levels are too expensive, or Charges at that level don't give enough of a cost break. The mechanics are there, though.

Charges have different cost breaks for different powers. Having 1 charge on an Overall Level is FAR worse of a Limitation than 1 charge on just about anything else. That's because Overall Levels are used FAR more than just about anything else in a scenario.

It's also a substitution effect at work. If you stick 1 charge on an attack, you probably have other attacks that you can substitute for it reasonably well. If you have 1 charge on an overall level, you're going to be worse off pretty much for the rest of the adventure on virtually everything.

[Hugh Neilson]

Charges have different cost breaks for different powers. Having 1 charge on an Overall Level is FAR worse of a Limitation than 1 charge on just about anything else. That's because Overall Levels are used FAR more than just about anything else in a scenario.

Charges also build in 0 END, so the point savings are less impressive on an ability like skill levels that come at 0 END from the outset.

[nexus]

Missile Deflection apparently needs clarification (this is being illustrated in another thread)...

I would like to see it done in a way the divorces it's cost from SFX, maybe just 20 points to be able to use a Block Maneuver against all Ranged Attacks with Limitations if required.

[schir1964]

Missile Deflection apparently needs clarification (this is being illustrated in another thread)...

I would like to see it done in a way the divorces it's cost from SFX, maybe just 20 points to be able to use a Block Maneuver against all Ranged Attacks with Limitations if required.
I'm going to create a thread in the Rules Forum to kick around some different approaches to handle Missile Deflection/Reflection.

And here it is: Deflection/Reflection

- Christopher Mullins

[BobGreenwade]

Charges also build in 0 END, so the point savings are less impressive on an ability like skill levels that come at 0 END from the outset.For this reason, Charges clearly should have different costs (if only a -1/2 differential) for Powers that cost END and those that don't.

[Tonio]

For this reason, Charges clearly should have different costs (if only a -1/2 differential) for Powers that cost END and those that don't.

I think this has been (or is being?) discussed in the Limitations thread. I think the consensus is that Charges should not include an inherent 0 END. Charges should be about limiting how many times a character can use a power (mechanics), not about simulating ammo (SFX).

[James Gillen]

I think this has been (or is being?) discussed in the Limitations thread. I think the consensus is that Charges should not include an inherent 0 END. Charges should be about limiting how many times a character can use a power (mechanics), not about simulating ammo (SFX).

Understood... but then how do we simulate ammo?

JG

[ajackson]

Understood... but then how do we simulate ammo?
Charges and zero END cost.

[CTaylor]

I think Missile Deflection should be changed to just plain "deflection" because it has only slightly to do with missiles and can be a bit misleading with that name. I also think Deflection should be changed slightly:

Missile Deflection at present is a weird hybrid of special effects and just whatever, like a bunch of stuff piled together that didn't fit anywhere else.

The first 15 points of the present power Missile Deflection are based on missile special effects, as one would expect from the name of the power. The last 5 points are "anything at all" ignoring special effects completely. This seems to me an extraordinary leap for just 5 points and a poor diversion of the power.

So here's how I'd rather see it structured:

5 pts: thrown objects
10 pts: launched projectiles (arrows)
15 pts: bullets
20 pts: any attack of a given special effect (Fire, cold, missiles, etc)
+5 pts: any sort of attack of a broad category of special effects (fire, lightning, and light-based)
+5 pts: any sort of attack of any sort of special effect (anything)

Then at least to get to the "I can ignore any normal attack" level you have to be spending at least 30 points. This would also at least make the power consistently based on special effects. Given that +1 with this ability is only 2 points, for 50 points you can make your character basically invulnerable to incoming standard attacks, that's still pretty cheap.

I'd even accept 10 point levels for the last two.

[CTaylor]

Oh, and I think reflection should be pulled out of Deflection entirely and made a separate power. Perhaps something like this:

REFLECTION
For 3 points per D6, the character may attempt to reflect an incoming attack back upon the attacker. To successfully reflect an attack, the roll on the Reflection dice must equal or exceed the active cost of the attack in question. If this fails, the attack is not reflected. No attack roll is required.

Reflection will reflect one power, which is decided at purchase. As an adjustment power, it may be purchased with advantages to broaden the number of attacks that may be Reflected with the Variable Effect advantage. Reflection costs END and requires a half phase action. It has no range.

A character may attempt to reflect as many attacks a phase as they wish, but they must have at least a half phase prepared (like block or deflect). However, the most a character can reflect is a number of active points equal to the maximum they can roll on their Reflect dice.

For a +1/2 advantage Reflection may partially reflect attacks; the amount rolled on the reflect dice will be reflected, the rest will affect the character normally.

If Ranged is bought on Reflection, it may attempt to reflect attacks at a distance away from the character, with a block roll modified by range.

For each 1 point, the maximum effect that the Reflect Dice can affect per phase is increased by 2.

Something of that sort.

[nexus]

Q: Should Missile Deflection and Reflection be changed?

Steve’s Thoughts: I think so. I wrote a whole HEROglyphs column in DH #38 describing some of the problems I see with this Power, including: you’re paying points for something that Dodge essentially lets you do for free; its effectiveness is based on special effects (deflect thrown, deflect arrows, etc.) rather than a game effect; the basing of Reflection on Deflection causes some problems.

I’m not necessarily saying that any of the ideas in my DH #38 column are the solutions to MD&R’s problems, but I think they need to be solved to make the Power worthwhile.

I imagine this has been gone over quite a bit but I'd like make a few comments as well. I agree Missile Deflection should be handled in a manner that isn't based on SFX. I'd just suggest just a flat cost to use a Block Maneuver against Ranged Attacks with the Reflection Adders.

Continuous would allow the power to function as it does now (Or perhaps an Adder so it could purchased for the character's normal Block as well)

A HTH adder/variant for Reflection which could be purchased for the character base Block (perhaps with a stop sign, some think this would be unbalancing).

I don't think MD should penalized based on the AP of the incoming attack. Block isn't and it would (IMO) make the power less attractive compared to DCV increases like Martial Dodge/DCV Levels and the Dive for Cover Maneuver.

[BobGreenwade]

While we're on the discussion of Missile Deflection, I'd like to see some way for it to work without the character's conscious intervention. Currently the only way that I'm aware of for that is to buy an Automaton, AI, or other kind of Follower whose sole purpose is to control this ability.

It would also be nice to see options allowing Missile Deflection to operate from Characteristics other than DEX -- for example, INT to represent the ability to instantly perceive and avoid incoming attacks in a sort of "super-dodge," or PRE to represent a character's supernatural authority to command missiles to not hit him. But that's hardly a deal-breaker (since such things are fairly obscure).

[ajackson]

While we're on the discussion of Missile Deflection, I'd like to see some way for it to work without the character's conscious intervention.
The usual way to do this is to buy DCV with a special effect of deflection. It's automatic reflection that's problematic.

[CTaylor]

Currently the only way that I'm aware of for that is to buy an Automaton, AI, or other kind of Follower whose sole purpose is to control this ability.

I'm pretty sure you can buy it as a damage shield, which would make it automatically go off, but still require a roll.

[Chris Goodwin]

The usual way to do this is to buy DCV with a special effect of deflection. It's automatic reflection that's problematic.

This is so crazy it just might work.

In 4e, and I think in 5e, if you have a Mental Power with Damage Shield, it automatically hits anyone who attacks you with a Mental Power. We could generalize this out to non-Mental Powers; why not some variant on Damage Shield, Ranged?

[The Main Man]

Some ideas that came from the CHAR Issues thread regading EGO and Mental Powers

Why not have Mental Powers operate like a hybrid of Transform and Adjustment powers?

They would accumulate until the EGO of the victim is overtaken, upon which the "if you did enough damage to kill your opponent you may as well change them" logic would be "if you did enough damage to [kill their mind?] you may as well manipulate it."

Once affected, The Mental Power fades like an Adjustment Power such as Absorption, Aid, or Drain.

Granted, such a change would require recosting, but 10 CP per die sounds reasonable.

[ajackson]

Some ideas that came from the CHAR Issues thread regading EGO and Mental Powers

Why not have Mental Powers operate like a hybrid of Transform and Adjustment powers?
There are some gameplay problems with the specific version you propose. Generally speaking, you want to structure a game such that characters can cooperate on a target, and having a separate damage structure for mental powers means you wind up with a situation of "okay, everyone, ignore that guy because I'm trying to use mental powers on him and your damage would be wasted".

There's something to be said for just going vs stun, at least in the case of mind control. It's relatively easy to balance, and there's genre evidence for strong will making you harder to knock out anyway.

[James Gillen]

Some ideas that came from the CHAR Issues thread regading EGO and Mental Powers

Why not have Mental Powers operate like a hybrid of Transform and Adjustment powers?

They would accumulate until the EGO of the victim is overtaken, upon which the "if you did enough damage to kill your opponent you may as well change them" logic would be "if you did enough damage to [kill their mind?] you may as well manipulate it."

Once affected, The Mental Power fades like an Adjustment Power such as Absorption, Aid, or Drain.

Granted, such a change would require recosting, but 10 CP per die sounds reasonable.


Hmmmm.

[CTaylor]

I prefer the incremental levels of effect we have now: you didn't get far enough into their mind to read their memories, just surface thoughts, etc. All-or-nothing would ruin that, like transform does not.

[Chris Goodwin]

I prefer the incremental levels of effect we have now: you didn't get far enough into their mind to read their memories, just surface thoughts, etc. All-or-nothing would ruin that, like transform does not.

The current rules require you to declare what effect you're going for, and either you achieve that effect or you don't.

It would make more sense if you could just use the Power, and see what you get, but that's not how the rules are written.

[The Main Man]

There are some gameplay problems with the specific version you propose. Generally speaking, you want to structure a game such that characters can cooperate on a target, and having a separate damage structure for mental powers means you wind up with a situation of "okay, everyone, ignore that guy because I'm trying to use mental powers on him and your damage would be wasted".

There's something to be said for just going vs stun, at least in the case of mind control. It's relatively easy to balance, and there's genre evidence for strong will making you harder to knock out anyway.

Isn't that the case with Mental Powers anyway?

Here's a further extrapolation:

1. The Attacker can use the Mental Effect only when the EGOx2 has been beaten (like BODYx2 for Transform).
Psimon wants to Mind Control Ironclad to fight Defender. He needs to roll and accumulate Ironclad's EGOx2 with his Mind Control dice.

2. The Attacker can continue to use that Mental Effect as long as it has not faded back to being less than the Defender's EGOx2.
Psimon succeeds in controlling Ironclad, who now proceeds to lay a beatdown on Defender. He cannot do anything about it though.

3. Once the Mental Effect has faded to below the Defender's EGOx2, the Defender may attempt to Break Out completely at -1 per 5 points of Mental Effect still in effect.
Psimon's Mind Control starts to wear off on Ironclad, who is now fighting it.

4. During this time, the last Mental Effect may continue until either the effect has completely faded away or the Defender has broken out with an EGO Roll.
Ironclad is currently unsuccessful in his attempts and continues to grind Defender into the ground.

5. The Attacker may reapply the Mental Power to retake control.
Psimon isn't about to let Ironclad go, so he attacks with his Mind Control again.

Let's say all of my propositions were taken as they have been stated:
In a 60 Active Point campaign, that allows for a 6d6 Mind Control, for example.

8-10 x 2 = 16-20 total points of effect is needed to control a normal person.

6d6 x3.5 = 21 easily overtakes Normal EGO in one move.

After 12 seconds, 5 points of effect fade away. If the normal's EGO was 8, as per usual, then they are still under control.

When another 5 points fades, the normal can try to Break Out, but the Attacker may continue to use the last specified effect until then.
If the Attacker is making the Defender see lots of Puppies and Kittens getting evicerated, then that is all that the Defender will continue to see until they Break Out or the effect fades completely away.

Delayed Return Rate may be an idea for such mechanics, but probably also doubled in cost (60 Active Points could buy 4d6 Telepathy, for example, with it losing 5 Points every Minute (+1/2)).

[ajackson]

Isn't that the case with Mental Powers anyway?
Yes, but I'm not calling current mechanics good.

Going in theoretical terms, there are basically two types of attacks in a game: 'defeat' actions which remove a character from play, and 'debuff' actions which weaken a character.

The canon 'defeat' action is damage: once you do enough stun to someone, they're unconscious and out of play. For functional game play, it should not be practical to defeat someone of equal power with one successful strike, and multiple 'defeat' type attacks should be reasonably cumulative.

A 'debuff' action is net balanced if, over its duration and over the normal duration of a fight, it will either cause the target to be hit once more than he would normally be, or will cause the target to hit one fewer time than he would normally be hit, or some similar combination. Causing a character to lose a phase, with no combat penalty, is equivalent to losing about 0.6 hits.

So, which is mind control? Well, long term full mind control removes an enemy from play, and also adds a new ally in play, so it's like a defeat action, only better, and obviously should not be possible with a single attack. Short term mind control can be interpreted as a modified debuff: it costs the target one action (0.6 hits) per phase and also causes the target to take actions on your side (worth another 0.6 hits). Thus, the average duration of a full mind control against an equal-power character should be about 0.8 phases.

[CTaylor]

The current rules require you to declare what effect you're going for, and either you achieve that effect or you don't.

With some, yes, but as a GM I've always allowed people to achieve a lesser effect of what they were trying to do so it isn't as absolute.

[PhilFleischmann]

The current rules require you to declare what effect you're going for, and either you achieve that effect or you don't.

It would make more sense if you could just use the Power, and see what you get, but that's not how the rules are written.
On the Advantage Issues thread, I posted this Advantage, which I use in my games:

----- If you cut here, you'll destroy your monitor -----

Lock-on Feedback (tentative name, can you think of a better one?) - A +0.5 Advantage to Mental Powers that allows the user to determine the level of effect achieved *before* declaring the "extent" of the desired effect. This would be best explained by an example:

The Rampaging Destructor is on a destructive rampage through the city. Along comes Super-Ego to save the day. He attempts a Mind Control "Stop your Destructive Rampage!" This is something that the Rampaging Destructor is Violently Opposed to, so he'll need EGO+30 for the power to work. If he fails to achieve that level of effect, nothing happens at all, according to the current rules. But with "Lock-on Feedback," Super-Ego gets a feedback of information of how well he "locked-on" to his opponent's mind. Say in this case he only achieved EGO+10, so he can't stop the rampage entirely, but might be able to direct it in a way that RD "wouldn't mind" doing. Super-Ego mentally commands that the Destructor continue his rampage in the direction of the military base, rather than in the direction of the children's hospital.

The user still has to specify the general idea of the effect he's aiming for, and must stick with that, toning it down somewhat, depending on the actual effect roll.

Note also that the GM need not reveal the target's EGO or Mental Defense to the player, only the level of effect achieved.

[Mini-Nukette]

An idea for mental attacks, following on from The Main Man's above.

The attacker establishes, by building up the 'damage' of a mental attack, a mental grip on his target, possibly cumulative over a number of Phases, working their way into their targets mind.

As long as they manage to keep their target unaware of the mental assault, the target cannot consciously resist. So to start with, the mental attacker must either be subtle - anything more than the targets EGO in 'mental damage' in a single Phase alerts them to the attack - or be certain they can blast through the 'weak-minded fools' natural mental barrier before they get a chance to mentally fight back.

Once the target becomes aware, they can, on their own phases,
'push back' against the attack, using their own EGO to reduce the build-up of mental energy the attacker has so far developed (-1d6 per 5 EGO and Mental Defense.) This is a Zero-Phase Action, but can only be done once per Phase, and only up to 1+(INT/10) times per Turn ('Mental Speed', so to speak.)

If this is before the attacker has gained enough of a foothold in the target's mind to place the mental effect, then it is a struggle of wills between the two. Otherwise, the attacker quietly raises enough additional mental grip to perform whatever they want to do.

As long as they continue to keep concentrating on the Mental Power (paying its END cost) they can keep the mental grip 'topped up', to a maximum of the Power's maximum dice roll (ie, a 5d6 Mental Illusions can be up to 30 points of established mental grip.)

Mental grip fades by 5 points per Turn, whether the attacker is keeping the Power going or not (though they may take a Powerful Mental Grip Advantage to reduce the fade rate of the mental grapple for +½ per step down the Time Chart.)

Once the Mental Power is reduced below the targets EGO, either from the Fade rate, or the Mental Grip being broken out of by the targets own EGO or the assistance of another, the Mental Power is broken and the Mental Grapple points of the attacker on that target are reduced to zero.

[Psylint]

Some thoughts:

Mental Illusions: Seems this would be better Int-based and as an opposed skill roll. If you think about it, what the resister is trying to do is remember how things were and note that they've changed. Ego, as I understand it, is more about grunting will power, and might make an adder or complimentary roll (e.g. you're suffering from an illusion that your friends appear as enemies and vice versa, so one of your friends says, "Dude it's an illusion, remember I was right here on your left.") This would also give a roll for Int, Perception, and other skills such as Deductive Reasoning, Detection, etc. And overall just makes more sense to me.

Reflection: I'd like to see Reflection start universal, i.e. you could reflect any attack, physical, mental, energy based (though undoubtedly that would be awful expensive). I wanted to create a character that controlled kinetic energy and could bounce back the energy of an incoming punch. Trying to find a triggered energy blast, limited to incoming Active points, variable advantage, etc. was rather cumbersome. Reflection vrs. hand to hand would've worked a lot easier.

Mind Control. I'd like a "combat mind control" option, 3 points/d6 but the command only last for the targets next phase. This is just to get over the huge penalty that mentalists have in an active point cap environment. I'd also like to lower the levels of effect needed; it creates an environment where the mentalists either totally dominate or are totally irrelevant.

[Chris Goodwin]

Some thoughts:

Mental Illusions: Seems this would be better Int-based and as an opposed skill roll. If you think about it, what the resister is trying to do is remember how things were and note that they've changed. Ego, as I understand it, is more about grunting will power, and might make an adder or complimentary roll (e.g. you're suffering from an illusion that your friends appear as enemies and vice versa, so one of your friends says, "Dude it's an illusion, remember I was right here on your left.") This would also give a roll for Int, Perception, and other skills such as Deductive Reasoning, Detection, etc. And overall just makes more sense to me.

You know how, when you're asleep and dreaming, there's things that you "know" that work in the universe of the dream, but are totally out of variance with the real world? That's how Mental Illusions work. (That seems also to be how various psychotic breaks work.)

It's not that you know the difference; it's that everything in your brain is going toward convincing you that it's correct.

[Shinobi Killfis]

Life support, cheaper and less specific.

[CTaylor]

OK I've been thinking about Power Defense a while and toying with it, and I've come to the conclusion: it's too cheap. It works against too broad a range of effects, many of which are very useful for a GM or a player but too easy to defeat.

It works on so many concepts and special effects it is like getting armor for physical and energy attacks at 1 point per defense. I wouldn't mind 1 point per Power Defense for one specific special effect, but for anything there really ought to be a greater cost. I wouldn't mind 2 points of defense for 3 like armor, but not 1 per point.

[ajackson]

OK I've been thinking about Power Defense a while and toying with it, and I've come to the conclusion: it's too cheap.
Based on revealed preference (i.e. what do people actually buy), it's not too cheap. Mental defense is, IME, far more common than power defense; power defense is about as common as lack of weakness.

[James Gillen]

OK I've been thinking about Power Defense a while and toying with it, and I've come to the conclusion: it's too cheap. It works against too broad a range of effects, many of which are very useful for a GM or a player but too easy to defeat.

It works on so many concepts and special effects it is like getting armor for physical and energy attacks at 1 point per defense. I wouldn't mind 1 point per Power Defense for one specific special effect, but for anything there really ought to be a greater cost. I wouldn't mind 2 points of defense for 3 like armor, but not 1 per point.

I brought that up a while ago, but the solution would be to make things even more detailed than they are. The "balance", if there is one, is that the Adjustment Powers apply just as broadly. ;)

JG

[Kdansky]

OK I've been thinking about Power Defense a while and toying with it, and I've come to the conclusion: it's too cheap. It works against too broad a range of effects, many of which are very useful for a GM or a player but too easy to defeat.

It works on so many concepts and special effects it is like getting armor for physical and energy attacks at 1 point per defense. I wouldn't mind 1 point per Power Defense for one specific special effect, but for anything there really ought to be a greater cost. I wouldn't mind 2 points of defense for 3 like armor, but not 1 per point.


This is a problem that comes up with quite a few of the unusual defenses. Namely Power Defense, Mental Defense, Flash Defense, Knockback Defense. There are two (the same for all) cases for each of these:

A: You don't have it and get hit by an Attack that works against it. You are effectively screwed and will be hurt badly by it. Be that 15" Knockback, a full turn of blindness, 30 points of suppress or mind control/illusion.

B: You have it. You are basically immune to whatever attack goes against it. Even if you only sport 10 points of Mental Defense (nonpersistent, takes a full phase until active, costs end to activate, some "Iron Will" construct basically) you get roughly 50% damage reduction against the average 6d6 (21 avg) EGO attack for about 5-10 points. The same is true for the other defenses too: 5" KB resistance stops anything up to 12d6 easily in most cases, 5 points of flash defense make big flashes a minor annoyance at most, and 10 points of power defense destroy 30 AP of drain (suppress is broken, that's another topic).

Now the thing is: If you buy an average of 5 to 10 points per special defense, each costing about 5 points, you actually spent 20 cp extra on defenses. That's pretty big already. So I would do it like this: Leave the costs, they seem to be ok, but restrict (as a GM, becaues that you cannot do in fixed rules) WHO takes WHAT. Do not let everyone have all defenses, but only 1-2 per character. That makes good drama, works well, everyone gets to shine and drains are still useful. Now that I write that, I will tell my players to have one unusual defense each. :)

[Chris Goodwin]

Mental Powers. Specifically, Classes of Mind.

From my Mental Powers thread, moved here because it's pretty much off-topic for there:


It's the "PC's are Human class" issue that bothers me. If Classes of Mind are, in fact, balanced and reasonable, why is there a need to prohibit PC's from being a Class of Mind other than human? Because getting virtual immunity to mental powers is a powerful ability. Well then, it should carry a cost commensurate with that benefit, not be a freebie available to NPC's only.

Alien minds should be harder to affect with mental powers? Then let the alien buy bonus DECV and/or mental defenses or damage reduction. The alien has an advantage. In Hero, you pay for advantages. If an alien with a silicon body should be more resistant to physical damage, we would never consider saying "he has an Alien Class of Body - unless you spent an extra 10 points on your EB to make it affect Alien Class Bodies, it doesn't work.

Classes of Mind prescribes SFX for the manner in which mental powers work. That's not, in my view, how Hero works. Put Classes of Mind into settings, sure. In this setting, that is how mental powers work. But such an SFX structure should not be a core rule.


Except that [Classes of Mind] could show up in any setting. GM call whether or not to use it in his supers setting, his Psi Hero setting, his fantasy setting. About the only settings where you know it's not going to show up are those where there are no Mental Powers at all.


That pretty much says it all. This is properly a setting rule (perhaps meriting a brief "optional rule" discussion) and not a core rule which applies by default.

Arguably, Multipowers and Elemental Controls are similar. There are many settings in which they don't appear. In fact, there are some settings in which no Powers are appropriate. Yet they're all in the core book, which is where they belong.

That aside; when you buy a Mental Power you define what Class of Mind it works against, for free. It's assumed that when you buy the Power it goes against your own Class of Mind, but you can specify otherwise. The +10 points is for going against additional Classes of Mind.

So, yes, a character's Class of Mind is defined at the time he is created, and he gets some kind of "free immunity", but anyone can build a Power that affects them as well. It's a wash.

[CTaylor]

I don't think it really would have to be that complicated. It just needs to be based on special effects rather than global, for example:

Cost of Power Defense
Single special effect: 1 point per defense
Group of related special effects (magic, spiritual, heat and energy, etc): 3 points per 2 defense.
All special effects: 2 points per defense

Something like that would do the job. Flash defense is fine because it is for 5 senses and to protect yourself you have to pay for them all (although I'd argue for non-targeting senses it should cost less, but that's a different letter range). It doesn't need to be enormously more expensive, just enough that you have to pay to protect yourself from everything.

[Tonio]

Regarding Classes of Mind... I think many of the apparent problems can be solved by recognizing that not all Classes of Mind are equal. Mind Controlling humans should be more expensive than Mind Controlling plants, since not only are there more sentient humans than plants, but most of the enemies the character is bound to encounter will have a human class of mind. Specifying the Class of Mind your power affects shouldn't be a no-cost decision. Either this, or characters should get or use points for their Class of Mind.

Moreover, the given Classes of Mind (Human, Alien, Plant, Machine) should be given as examples, not as a default.

[Chris Goodwin]

Regarding Classes of Mind... I think many of the apparent problems can be solved by recognizing that not all Classes of Mind are equal. Mind Controlling humans should be more expensive than Mind Controlling plants, since not only are there more sentient humans than plants, but most of the enemies the character is bound to encounter will have a human class of mind. Specifying the Class of Mind your power affects shouldn't be a no-cost decision. Either this, or characters should get or use points for their Class of Mind.

Moreover, the given Classes of Mind (Human, Alien, Plant, Machine) should be given as examples, not as a default.

Yes, they should be given as examples. Classes of Mind should be GM-driven, along with things like whether Multipowers and Elemental Controls are allowed.

(If it matters: Alien CoM doesn't necessarily mean anyone from another planet; Klingons aren't necessarily alien minds, but Cthulhu probably is. (You could easily build your Telepathy with Alien CoM with Side Effects: Drain EGO to represent loss of sanity...)

Point being, it doesn't cost anything to declare that you are of a different Class of Mind. It also doesn't cost anything to declare that your Mental Powers affect a different Class of Mind. Ergo, a wash.

[Hugh Neilson]

Point being, it doesn't cost anything to declare that you are of a different Class of Mind. It also doesn't cost anything to declare that your Mental Powers affect a different Class of Mind. Ergo, a wash.

It costs nothing to have your physical attacks affect all "classes of body". It costs 30 points to have your mental powers affect all default classes of mind. (Human, Alien, Animal and Machine). This, to me, is a cost.

As Tonio notes, they are not equal, but they are priced equal. What level of disadvantage would you allow for an Android (machine class) who is affected as if he had a Human mind as well? Would you allow the same for being affected as Alien instead of Human? If not, the two are not equal.

[James Gillen]

Mental Powers. Specifically, Classes of Mind.

From my Mental Powers thread, moved here because it's pretty much off-topic for there:

Arguably, Multipowers and Elemental Controls are similar. There are many settings in which they don't appear. In fact, there are some settings in which no Powers are appropriate. Yet they're all in the core book, which is where they belong.

That aside; when you buy a Mental Power you define what Class of Mind it works against, for free. It's assumed that when you buy the Power it goes against your own Class of Mind, but you can specify otherwise. The +10 points is for going against additional Classes of Mind.

So, yes, a character's Class of Mind is defined at the time he is created, and he gets some kind of "free immunity", but anyone can build a Power that affects them as well. It's a wash.

Actually, Chris, I brought that point up because your thread was the relevant one, insofar as it was coming up with a completely different paradigm for Mental Powers than what we have now, and I wasn't sure if the Classes of Mind rule would be applied to it.

JG

[Chris Goodwin]

Actually, Chris, I brought that point up because your thread was the relevant one, insofar as it was coming up with a completely different paradigm for Mental Powers than what we have now, and I wasn't sure if the Classes of Mind rule would be applied to it.

JG

Ahhh, ok. In that thread I'm primarily trying to do two things: do away with the CHA, CHA+10, CHA+20 rule for Mental Powers and PRE Attacks, and to redesign the Mental Powers themselves. To the extent that Classes of Mind will need to fit in with those, I'm totally down with discussing it there, but the whys and wherefores of it being in the system in the first place should take place here.

[James Gillen]

Ahhh, ok. In that thread I'm primarily trying to do two things: do away with the CHA, CHA+10, CHA+20 rule for Mental Powers and PRE Attacks, and to redesign the Mental Powers themselves. To the extent that Classes of Mind will need to fit in with those, I'm totally down with discussing it there, but the whys and wherefores of it being in the system in the first place should take place here.

Then I already explained why I wanna get rid of it. :D

JG

[Balabanto]

Classes of Minds are radically different, true, but I feel that in most games it keeps a rein on mentalists from being radically overpowered. The game should not reward the dumb and punish the smart. :)

A skilled player with a mentalist never needs any more than a +10 effect to do significant harm to people.

[CTaylor]

do away with the CHA, CHA+10, CHA+20 rule for Mental Powers and PRE Attacks

I actually like that system quite a bit, it's easy to remember and use.

[Hugh Neilson]

Classes of Minds are radically different, true, but I feel that in most games it keeps a rein on mentalists from being radically overpowered. The game should not reward the dumb and punish the smart. :)

So why not have classes of body? That would help keep Bricks from being radically overpowered, and it seems a lot of people (who think STR is underpriced) consider Bricks overpowered.

[CTaylor]

Er, because that doesn't make any sense?

[Hugh Neilson]

So why not have classes of body? That would help keep Bricks from being radically overpowered, and it seems a lot of people (who think STR is underpriced) consider Bricks overpowered.


Er, because that doesn't make any sense?

Why not? Gaseous (or non-solid) Class of Body should not be affected by physical atacks. There's no reason most energy attacks would affect a Silicon Body. If your atack should affect an unusual Class of Body, buy a 10 point adder.

This is the same (il)logic applied to Classes of Mind.

[CTaylor]

Gaseous (or non-solid) Class of Body should not be affected by physical atacks

Which Desolidified already works on


There's no reason most energy attacks would affect a Silicon Body

You think silicon is impervious to energy?

[James Gillen]

Er, because that doesn't make any sense?

Exactly! :D

jg

[Hugh Neilson]

You think silicon is impervious to energy?

Many forms of energy which are damaging to carbon-based lifeforms have no real impact on a rock. And the ones that affect rocks should buy the 10 point adder.

I'm not in favour of a Classes of Body rule, but I don't find it any less reasonable than the Classes of Mind rules.

[CTaylor]

Rocks aren't impervious to energy, they suffer less damage from energy than people do.... because they have higher resistant defenses. That's completely different from a mind so alien you can't even contact it or understand it. Different classes of body would be closer to desolidification: you can't hit them, they can't hit you. You can't interact with the things they can, they can't interact with the things you can.

[Hugh Neilson]

Rocks aren't impervious to energy, they suffer less damage from energy than people do.... because they have higher resistant defenses. That's completely different from a mind so alien you can't even contact it or understand it.

And yet any alien mentalist can deal with any other alien mind, no matter that they are alien in completely different ways and just as alien to each other as to the human class of minds. And a single 10 point adder takes care of all of them. On, of course, an all or nothing basis - it's not possible to get even an inkling of that alien mind unless you put the adder on, at which time it loses all issus dealing with its "alien-ness".

Seems to me that the alien should be more difficult to contact - they suffer less effect from mental powers than a normal person does...because they have higher mental defenses.

And that rock still isn't bothered by the terrible cold that can kill a human being - it's a 12d6 energy blast, by the way, no resistant defenses required.


Different classes of body would be closer to desolidification: you can't hit them, they can't hit you. You can't interact with the things they can, they can't interact with the things you can.

Sounds like we need a form of Mental Desolid - which the alien would pay for, whether that alien is a PC or an NPC - rather than classes of mind that come as a freebie, but only if you're an NPC.

[CTaylor]

And yet any alien mentalist can deal with any other alien mind, no matter that they are alien in completely different ways and just as alien to each other as to the human class of minds

I wouldn't rule that at all. I'd say each class of minds is its own: the Gz'norz aliens who are a cloud of blue lights have an alien mind class, but they can't use mental powers on Naz-naz who are merely a mental presence. Each one would have to buy alien mind on their powers to affect each other.

It's OK to say "I just don't like it," you don't have to try to invent reasons why. If it is just a gut thing, that's fine.

[Hugh Neilson]

I wouldn't rule that at all. I'd say each class of minds is its own: the Gz'norz aliens who are a cloud of blue lights have an alien mind class, but they can't use mental powers on Naz-naz who are merely a mental presence. Each one would have to buy alien mind on their powers to affect each other.

It's OK to say "I just don't like it," you don't have to try to invent reasons why. If it is just a gut thing, that's fine.

It's a completely philosophical thing. Characters don't get immunity to any other type of power for free due to a background element. The fact that a character is a living flame doesn't mean he is immune to fire powers at no cost - you pay for defenses against fire attacks. Being a water elemental doesn't enable you to breathe underwater - you buy Life Support. Being able to run at the speed of light doesn't enhance your ability to avoid attacks - you want that, buy extra DCV.

This is how Hero works - you pay for the mechanical abilities your character concept mandates. Having an unusual mind is a character concept like any other - this should not make you immune to mental powers at no cost - pay the points for the appropriate level of resistance to those powers, just like every other character pays the points for the abilities their unusual natures logically provide.

[AnotherSkip]

it is similar to buying Desolid to Fire atacks to represent immunity you pay 20 points and NO fire attack should be able to hurt you.

Classes of minds essentially gives immunity, therefor like other "immunities" it should cost points.

[CTaylor]

Characters don't get immunity to any other type of power for free due to a background element.

That's just it. no PC could possibly take this because it would make them utterly unplayable.

[Hugh Neilson]

That's just it. no PC could possibly take this because it would make them utterly unplayable.

It's impossible to play Lassie or Marvin the Android?

[ideasmith]

It's impossible to play Lassie or Marvin the Android?

Both Lassie and Marvin the Android would Human class of mind. (Remember: A character can have more than one class of mind.)

[CTaylor]

Exactly, as has been stated multiple times before in exhaustive nature: alien classes of mind are so alien, so incomprehensible, and so out of human experience that they are incapable of intellectually interacting with humans. Creatures that can interact with humans, even to a limited degree, are not alien minds.

[Hugh Neilson]

Exactly, as has been stated multiple times before in exhaustive nature: alien classes of mind are so alien, so incomprehensible, and so out of human experience that they are incapable of intellectually interacting with humans. Creatures that can interact with humans, even to a limited degree, are not alien minds.

So monkeys, dolphins, dogs, cats and hamsters are Human class, not Animal class? What is Animal class, then? Even my goldfish knows how to get my attention if I forget to feed it. That's interaction.

And what level of removal is required for a self-aware machine to be in the Machine clas of minds? They must have Ego or mental powers are meaningless anyway.

[nexus]

So monkeys, dolphins, dogs, cats and hamsters are Human class, not Animal class? What is Animal class, then? Even my goldfish knows how to get my attention if I forget to feed it. That's interaction.

And what level of removal is required for a self-aware machine to be in the Machine clas of minds? They must have Ego or mental powers are meaningless anyway.

Where has it been stated that to qualify as Alien or Animal classes of minds the creature must be unable to relate to humans? Honest question as I don't recall that description.

[Hugh Neilson]

Where has it been stated that to qualify as Alien or Animal classes of minds the creature must be unable to relate to humans? Honest question as I don't recall that description.

I am extrapolating from the two posts below.


Exactly, as has been stated multiple times before in exhaustive nature: alien classes of mind are so alien, so incomprehensible, and so out of human experience that they are incapable of intellectually interacting with humans. Creatures that can interact with humans, even to a limited degree, are not alien minds.


Both Lassie and Marvin the Android would Human class of mind. (Remember: A character can have more than one class of mind.)

Taken together, the implication is that being of a different class of mind than Human (or not having multiple classes of mind, including human) requires incapability of relating to humans. That's not, to my knowledge, a universal claim.

However, even if I accept the Alien class of mind being hugely restricted, the possibility of a reasonable PC with either Animal or Machine class of mind still seems quite open, and the prospect of arguing either class must be so far removed from human as to be incapable of interaction seems quite ludicrous.

More to the point "alien must be so far removed as to be incomprehensible", even if accepted, does not provide a defense for the Class of Mind rules overall. It merely categorizes that class of mind.

[nexus]

I am extrapolating from the two posts below.


I'm sorry, I shouldn't have quoted you. I was just wondering where the general idea was coming from.



That's not, to my knowledge, a universal claim.


That's what I was wondering about. It was being stated as it it were RAW and I didn't remember reading anything like that.

[ideasmith]

I am extrapolating from the two posts below.


To make it clear: By my figuring, Lassie and Marvin the Android do not have Alien minds (Animal+Human for a playable interpretation of Lassie, and Machine+Human for Marvin the Android, as I implied in my post).

[Chris Goodwin]

It's a completely philosophical thing. Characters don't get immunity to any other type of power for free due to a background element.

Wow. Characters with Alien Class of Mind don't get immunity to Mental Powers either. Because any character can buy his Mental Powers to affect Alien Class of Mind, for free.

Gahhhh. I feel like the guy beating his head against the computer now.

[James Gillen]

Wow. Characters with Alien Class of Mind don't get immunity to Mental Powers either. Because any character can buy his Mental Powers to affect Alien Class of Mind, for free.

Yeah, and depending on how common "Alien" characters are in the game, that Mental Power bought as Alien Class of Mind by default (for base cost) may or may not be more effective than a Mental Power bought with the Human Class of Mind by default. Since most campaigns are built around Human characters, it's more likely going to be less effective for the price. ;)

jg

[CTaylor]

That's not, to my knowledge, a universal claim.

It's fairly easy to infer from the rules: mental attacks don't work on them because their mind is so alien that you cannot even contact them. That says pretty plainly to me that normal human minds and these minds are incapable of interacting. Not exactly a stretch.

In any case, it is plain that if a class of minds is so alien that it is impossible to use mental powers on, it doesn't mean doggy or robot, it means alien.

[ajackson]

Hm. I would say that "alien class of mind" should probably be linked to language rules, because by the above understanding, there is no real reason it should be possible to communicate by any means, not just by telepathic means.

[Hugh Neilson]

It's fairly easy to infer from the rules: mental attacks don't work on them because their mind is so alien that you cannot even contact them. That says pretty plainly to me that normal human minds and these minds are incapable of interacting. Not exactly a stretch.

In any case, it is plain that if a class of minds is so alien that it is impossible to use mental powers on, it doesn't mean doggy or robot, it means alien.


Absolutely. But Animal class and Machine Class are just as immune to non-customized mental powers. And there's no reason a PC could not be an animal or a machine (other than the rules specifically prohibiting this, defying logic to protect game balance from the Class of Mind rules so many posters fervently defend as "not unbalanced"")

[Hugh Neilson]

Seems to me that Classes of Mind are at least as unpopular as Comeliness...I know which one I'd rather see tossed!

[nexus]

Seems to me that Classes of Mind are at least as unpopular as Comeliness...I know which one I'd rather see tossed!

I don't care for classes of minds but they are easy enough to ignore and some people find them a useful tool for their games. So I'm fine with leaving them in the system.

[James Gillen]

I don't care for classes of minds but they are easy enough to ignore and some people find them a useful tool for their games. So I'm fine with leaving them in the system.

One is a net zero, the other is in my opinion a minus. ;)

jg

[Chris Goodwin]

Absolutely. But Animal class and Machine Class are just as immune to non-customized mental powers. And there's no reason a PC could not be an animal or a machine (other than the rules specifically prohibiting this, defying logic to protect game balance from the Class of Mind rules so many posters fervently defend as "not unbalanced"")

Defying logic? No. Rather, insisting on logic that an Alien mind be, y'know, alien. And an Animal mind, animal. You want to play one of those, play it. If you can't handle that, then don't. Make sure you don't play out of concept by acting like a human...

[nexus]

If anyone is interested, I did ask about about this on a FAQ list. Steve Long's opinion doesn't nessecarily make it "right" but I think it's good at least know the baseline intent of the RAW as much as possible even if your interpretation and preferences differ

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65844

[Hugh Neilson]

I don't care for classes of minds but they are easy enough to ignore and some people find them a useful tool for their games. So I'm fine with leaving them in the system.

In my view, if they are intended to be optional rules, they should be presented as such. And that is likely the best answer for items that are desired in the system, but are intended and expected to be used by some and ignored by others - both classes of mind and comeliness.

I see classes of mind as even better suited to "optional" status because its use requires GM thought as to the setting - what classes are relevant and will exist, and which are not, as well as the baseline "sfx of how mental powers work", must be assessed to decide whether and how to include this rule. Comeliness is pretty much binary - either you include it or exclude it.

Oh, and for completeness, Stev's answer to the CoM question


Each GM can interpret them how he wishes, though I for one certainly wouldn't consider Marvin or Lassie as Human, but rather as Machine and Animal respectively. Nor would there be much point in having an Alien class of minds if most non-terrestrial species qualified as Human.

So, by the book (and we are arguing for and against keeping Steve Long's class of mind rule in the book, right?):

- Marvin is not Human class
- Lassie is not Human class
- those guys with bumps on their heads and/or pointy ears are also likely not human class

Without reviewing the full discussion in detail, I don't think ANYONE is arguing for the retention of the classes of mind rules as Steve sets them out above. If someone is, please stand up and be counted!

By that logic, kryptonians, skrulls, kree and durlans should have Alien Class of Body - their bodies are at least as different as their minds! Hmmm...this would actually solve the "Bulletproof" conundrum - "Superhuman" class of bodies is unaffected by guns - they don't have the 10 point adder to affect Superhumans. That makes it at least as useful as Classes of Mind. ;)

[CTaylor]

I agree, the system as Steve Long lays it out is absurd and poorly designed. It does have all the problems people lay out here because it makes it too easy to be immune to most mentalists with a zero cost character definition. Superman would be by default immune to nearly every mentalist's powers because he's extraterrestrial. That simply will not do.

[AnotherSkip]

Although now that i think about it the only time he got mind controlled was by aliens....

(edit that I remember in the JLA Cartoon)

[CTaylor]

Let me put it another way: those who were arguing that the class of minds concept was a mess and needed rebuilding were right and I was wrong - the way I interpreted it would work fine, the way the rules official do is seriously problematic and needs to change for 6th edition.

[Hugh Neilson]

Let me put it another way: those who were arguing that the class of minds concept was a mess and needed rebuilding were right and I was wrong

Agreed


- the way I interpreted it would work fine,

Not so much. Still doesn't solve the Marvin the Android or Rex the Wonder Dog issue. My view is that they should be relegated to an optional, setting-specific rule which should include discussion of costs for being of an alternate class of minds.

[James Gillen]

Agreed



Not so much. Still doesn't solve the Marvin the Android or Rex the Wonder Dog issue. My view is that they should be relegated to an optional, setting-specific rule which should include discussion of costs for being of an alternate class of minds.

At best. :D

jg

[Tonio]

Class of Mind as a free immunity is as valid as SFX as a free immunity to NNDs. Mental Powers are basically implicitly a limited type of NND/AVLD ("Only vs such-and-such Class of Mind"). The problem, as I see it, is not that "choosing Machine Class of Mind gives you free immunity to all mental powers", but rather that "choosing Machine Class of Mind for my mental power makes it less useful without giving me a cost break", which is true when Human Class of Mind is less abundant than Machine.

Consider a sexist EB, Only vs. Men (-1). You can pick whether you're a man or a woman, for free. Picking Woman, though, gives you free immunity from the sexist EB. This is not a problem, though, because whoever bought the EB got a cost break. Mental Powers working against Human Class of Mind by default is fine in my book. Choosing a different Class of Mind, though, should give you a cost break appropriate to the difference in abundance between the Human and the new Class of Mind. In a campaign where you're one of the few humans alive, where the world is populated by robots, Human should give you a cost break; Machine should be the default. But that's just campaign-specific minutiae.

[CTaylor]

Still doesn't solve the Marvin the Android or Rex the Wonder Dog issue.

Actually, it does. If you define "alien minds" as being something that has drawbacks at least as significant as being immune to mental powers (more than just "my buddy can't mind link with me") then the zero cost is justified. Alien mind means "too alien to interact with normally," not just extraterrestrial.

[Hugh Neilson]

Actually, it does. If you define "alien minds" as being something that has drawbacks at least as significant as being immune to mental powers (more than just "my buddy can't mind link with me") then the zero cost is justified. Alien mind means "too alien to interact with normally," not just extraterrestrial.

So why not price out the cost of Alien Mind and the Disad value of "too alien to interact with normally"? What else in the game bundles a Disad with a Power?

[CTaylor]

What else in the game bundles a Disad with a Power?

Most special effects. The concept of the game allows for various places where the benefits and drawbacks counter each other out, it's a push, and costs nothing.

[James Gillen]

Class of Mind as a free immunity is as valid as SFX as a free immunity to NNDs. Mental Powers are basically implicitly a limited type of NND/AVLD ("Only vs such-and-such Class of Mind"). The problem, as I see it, is not that "choosing Machine Class of Mind gives you free immunity to all mental powers", but rather that "choosing Machine Class of Mind for my mental power makes it less useful without giving me a cost break", which is true when Human Class of Mind is less abundant than Machine.

Well the difference being that you pay a fairly large Advantage for NND, because after all, if you don't have the defense, you take all the damage straight, to an attack that mechanics-wise normally applies a defense. Whereas Classes of Mind requires an Adder to apply, and the target STILL gets his Mental Defense. ;)



Consider a sexist EB, Only vs. Men (-1). You can pick whether you're a man or a woman, for free. Picking Woman, though, gives you free immunity from the sexist EB. This is not a problem, though, because whoever bought the EB got a cost break.

One picks "his" gender for reasons other than the question, "Does my GM's favorite villain have Mental Powers Only vs. Men?" Assuming you even know the answer in advance.


Mental Powers working against Human Class of Mind by default is fine in my book. Choosing a different Class of Mind, though, should give you a cost break appropriate to the difference in abundance between the Human and the new Class of Mind. In a campaign where you're one of the few humans alive, where the world is populated by robots, Human should give you a cost break; Machine should be the default. But that's just campaign-specific minutiae.

Yeah but it's an illustration of the issue involved, IMO.

jg

[AnotherSkip]

Actually, it does. If you define "alien minds" as being something that has drawbacks at least as significant as being immune to mental powers (more than just "my buddy can't mind link with me") then the zero cost is justified. Alien mind means "too alien to interact with normally," not just extraterrestrial.

i disagree Steve clearly defines characters that can be interacted with normally in a roleplaying context ("what is it boy?"... ... "Timmy fell down the well?"... ..."And he ate moms blueberry pie?") as having animal class of mind. In addition it wouldn't so obviously be Cheeze if there wasn't a "no, players can't have this" rule tacked on.

[ideasmith]

i disagree Steve clearly defines characters that can be interacted with normally in a roleplaying comntext ("what is it boy?"... ... "Timmy fell down the well?"... ..."And he ate moms blueberry pie?") as having alien class of mind. In addition it wouldn't so obviously be Cheeze if there wasn't a "no, players can't have this" rule tacked on.

If Lassie belongs to the Alien class of mind, what is the Animal class of mind for?

[Markdoc]

If Lassie belongs to the Alien class of mind, what is the Animal class of mind for?

Ordinary animals, not animals that star in their own TV show and show near human intelligence and ability to understand/communicate with humans.

cheers, Mark

[ideasmith]

Ordinary animals, not animals that star in their own TV show and show near human intelligence and ability to understand/communicate with humans.

cheers, Mark

I've already stated that I consider Lassie to have both the Animal and Human mind classes.

[Markdoc]

I've already stated that I consider Lassie to have both the Animal and Human mind classes.

That's reasonable, I guess. The rules already state that a PC must have a human class of mind. To me, that means if it's playable as a PC, then it must have human class of mind. Which means in turn - given the range of types available, that whether a mind is alien or not has zippo to do with physiology and/or genera. So: big scary ape in a pulp adventure? Animal class of mind. Doc Silverback, Gorilla mastermind? Human class of mind. Lassie falls on the border of that division. If played as a dependant, probably animal. If played as a PC or follower, human class. It is, after all, purely a special effect.

cheers, Mark

[ideasmith]

That's reasonable, I guess. The rules already state that a PC must have a human class of mind. To me, that means if it's playable as a PC, then it must have human class of mind. Which means in turn - given the range of types available, that whether a mind is alien or not has zippo to do with physiology and/or genera. So: big scary ape in a pulp adventure? Animal class of mind. Doc Silverback, Gorilla mastermind? Human class of mind. Lassie falls on the border of that division. If played as a dependant, probably animal. If played as a PC or follower, human class. It is, after all, purely a special effect.

cheers, Mark

When I wrote 'both', I meant 'both'. Per 5ER page 117.

[Markdoc]

When I wrote 'both', I meant 'both'. Per 5ER page 117.

Understood. Which is why I wrote "reasonable", rather than "I agree". I'd assign a mind to one class or another, personally, but I can see that you might want to assign it to two categories.

cheers, Mark

[ideasmith]

Understood. Which is why I wrote "reasonable", rather than "I agree". I'd assign a mind to one class or another, personally, but I can see that you might want to assign it to two categories.

cheers, Mark

Got it now. Sorry.

[AnotherSkip]

*grumbles about Snarkyness being concealed as wit*

So if you have two classes of minds does that not count as a disad? after all there is a whole other class of minds that now you can be attacked over that others don't get to face attacks from. Sounds an auful lot like a disad....

Perhaps a Menton could take multible classes of minds and get the ability to control machines and aliens and animals for disad values.
Sure, Just what we need "let's make menton MORE powerful...."

[ideasmith]

*grumbles about Snarkyness being concealed as wit*

So if you have two classes of minds does that not count as a disad? after all there is a whole other class of minds that now you can be attacked over that others don't get to face attacks from. Sounds an auful lot like a disad....

Perhaps a Menton could take multible classes of minds and get the ability to control machines and aliens and animals for disad values.
Sure, Just what we need "let's make menton MORE powerful...."

Per 5ER page 117, having two classes of mind can be a Physical Limitation, depending on how limiting it is in that particular campaign. Also, classes of mind have no affect on who/what the character affects with mental powers, only on what mental powers affect the character. Your last paragraph therefore makes little sense if using RAW.

[BobGreenwade]

Per 5ER page 117, having two classes of mind can be a Physical Limitation, depending on how limiting it is in that particular campaign. Also, classes of mind have no affect on who/what the character affects with mental powers, only on what mental powers affect the character. Your last paragraph therefore makes little sense if using RAW.I've been at this a while, but I'm still not familiar with the abbreviation RAW, and I can't find it in the Index. What is it?

[ideasmith]

I've been at this a while, but I'm still not familiar with the abbreviation RAW, and I can't find it in the Index. What is it?


Sorry, it means Rules As Written.

[Vulcan]

Here we go...

Missile Deflection: I have long thought that pricing Deflection based on the special effect of the attack was less than ideal. A more logical construct would be based on the limitations (or advantages) applied to the attack. This is already available in part, in the 'Can be missile deflected' limitation on attack powers that cannot normally be deflected.

Perhaps 'Range based on STR' (which usually simulates a thrown object) should be one level, 'Beam attack' might be another (smaller area to cover, might be easier to deflect), Explosion would be hard (but possible if you are at ground zero - if the effect centers on you, it should be possible to intercept the 'incoming effect' before it detonates). AEH beyond 1 Hex? Right out (unless the aformentioned 'can be missile deflected' is applied.

Incidentally, you should not be able to reflect a beam attack. The limitation says it all - "Attack cannot be bounced". A partial exception might be allowed on a case-by-case basis, but the default should be no deflections.

Making missile deflection a default sort of maneuver - as an adder to block would be - rather than a talent or power dosn't seem right to me. Even in the most outrageous comic book or movie genres, not everyone has access to the ability. Even an expensive maneuver should be availabe to everyone. But in a lot of genres, Missile deflection would clearly not be appropriate.

On a reated issue, applying a limited form of Reflection to Block should be available as a manuever. Expensive, sure, difficult, heck yeah, but available. I've seen it done in a fair number of movies over the years, and even seen it recently in person in 'boffer' combat - granted, just once, but it was clearly done deliberately. And then we get into the expoits of Spider-Man...

[Vulcan]

Mental Powers:

Okay, this one can be a game-killer. Lets face it, no one enjoys having their PC mind-controlled, or mental-illusioned right out of the combat. It takes a lot of the fun out of things when you are no longer in control of your own character.

Having said this, at the same time there is nothing more frustrating than playing a mentalist who can never get an effect to stick, even a basic EGO+ effect.

It usually boils down to the PC's rejoicing when Menton 'merely' EGO attacks someone, and the PC mentalist being nothing more than a mobile migraine generator.

It looks like we have a really bad situation. Neither end is really balanced, but correcting one end looks like it would just makes the other end worse. At least like this, neither end is truly gamebreaking. Occasionally frustrating, but not gamebreaking.

Steve, you're going to have to think long and hard before you change anything with mental powers. That something should be done is probably true. But exactly what is done needs to be carefully thought out (and then playtested literally to death to find all the flaws).

[Vulcan]

Classes of Minds:

At first glance, the current divisions (Human, animal, machine, & alien) seem to make sense. If you can read a human mind, why does that give you the ability to read the mind of a dog, or a robot, or a Kilngon? But on further examination, the question quickly becomes 'Why can't I read these other minds?

Biologically speaking, there is very little physical difference between the way an animal's brain works and the way a human brain works. The human brain is vastly more complex, but the basic function is the same - electical impulses trigger chemical transmitters trigger electical impulses. So the Human/Animal distinction is an artifical one based on complexity, not function.

The Alien mind group is a bit harder. First, we've never (to my knowledge, anyway) met any aliens. So, trying to guess how their brain might function is going to be just that, a guess. However, in the vast majority of genres, and over the vast majority of concrete examples, cross-alien telepathy seems to be pretty much the rule. Sure, the alien thinks in an alien language, but he has sensory information that goes with it that a telepath could pick out.
Spock could mind-meld with nearly anything. (Troi doesn't count; her capabilites were inversly proportinal to the amount of cleavage she was showing in an episode and are not a fair and constant standard.) So, with most genere material being against it, I'm inclined to say that the 'Alien' mind group is not neccessary either. If your alien's mind is that strange, buy Mental Defese, Mental Damage Reduction, or DECV. That is, pay for what you are getting.

Now, for the machine mind group. This one is a bit harder to deal with, because most 'machines' (lawnmowers, appliances, and what-not) don't have anything resembling a mind to affect. Computers are the only real exception to this, but even there, the process behind the 'thinking' would truly be alien to a human mind. 0110110 1001101 - anyone have any ideas what that would mean?
On the other hand, an AI would almost certainly have to have been programed by getting the system to react to stimuli i.e. by 'teaching'. And with that, points of commonality start to become available. Just how much commonality is up to the person making the AI character.
Sure, once the original system has been 'taught' the programs can be downloaded and installed in other systems. But they too will retain the memory of having been 'taught', and the points of commonality remain.
So, if you don't want your android to have it's mind read, buy Mental Defense.

My thought is that 'inert' machines (those without computers) should be controled with a limited form of TK. Computers can be controled with mental powers with a limitation, 'only vs. computers' or only vs nonsentient computers,' whose value would change based on the commonality of computers and AIs in the campaign.

Everything else should - AI's included - should be affected by standard mental powers. Simplest way to keep it balanced.

Besides, Professor X EGO Attacked the heck out of a Sentinel once. If that's not precident, I don't know what is!

[ideasmith]

A suggestion concerning Mental Powers and classes of mind:

By default, Mental Powers affect anything with an EGO rating.

For a +5 adder you can instead affect anything with an INT rating, a CON rating, or a PRE rating (choose one).

'Restricted Classes Of Mind' would be a Limitation.

[BobGreenwade]

Sorry, it means Rules As Written.Ah! I had a feeling it was something as simple as that. Thanks. :)

[James Gillen]

Sorry, it means Rules As Written.

Monday Night RAW!!!!

[CTaylor]

That's one of those "I'll abbreviate to save time, then have to explain it which takes more time than typing it out" things. There's a lot of that on the internet, which makes it pointlessly opaque to new readers or people not up on the local slang. I'm always bemused by people who'll type out a huge diatribe then abbreviate a few common terms to save time or something. You could type 450 words to make your point but couldn't type out "in my opinion" which is redundant to begin with?

[AnotherSkip]

Per 5ER page 117, having two classes of mind can be a Physical Limitation, depending on how limiting it is in that particular campaign. Also, classes of mind have no affect on who/what the character affects with mental powers, only on what mental powers affect the character. Your last paragraph therefore makes little sense if using RAW.

yay, another ridiculous artificial limitation from the "RAW"


It just keeps on making me dislike it AW.

[Hugh Neilson]

yay, another ridiculous artificial limitation from the "RAW"


It just keeps on making me dislike it AW.

Well, in fairness, if the four classes of mind were equally common, and attacks against them were both equally common and equally useful, having two classes of mind would double the chances enemy mental powers would affect you, so it would be disadvantageous .

But they aren't, so they're not, so it wouldn't so it isn't.

[Vulcan]

A suggestion concerning Mental Powers and classes of mind:

By default, Mental Powers affect anything with an EGO rating.

For a +5 adder you can instead affect anything with an INT rating, a CON rating, or a PRE rating (choose one).

'Restricted Classes Of Mind' would be a Limitation.


Sounds good to me.

[Benzini]

Has there been any discussion as to the COST of Life Support?
Is it too much? Should Full Life support carry any inherent disadvantages, like: Distinctive feature- does not breathe (creepy)

[Vulcan]

But the only time you'd notice they weren't breathing is when they were in conversation range, at which point you're probably talking to them, which means they're probably breathing so they can pass air over their vocal cords so they can talk back.

Or maybe they want use their sense of smell occasionally?

I am against forcing a disad on someone because they paid points to buy a power. "Doesn't breathe at all" might be worth a (VERY) small limitation on life support: doesn't need to breathe, because you would have to have an alternate means of communication and couldn't smell anything (unless you're have an alternate sense of smell or something, so that rules that out).

Now having said that, yes, I think a lot of life support powers are a bit ovepriced for what they do. Let's face it, many of them are just glorified defenses against a variety of NND's. Immunity to all diseases shouldn't cost so much, since most 'disaese' attack powers are bought as Drains, which affects Power Defense. A 'disese' attack power that doesn't work against someone with the appropriate immunity (which is rare, at best) gets a limitation. Same thing with poisons and immunity. On the other hand, self-contained breathing is about right in my opinion, it is petty darn useful on it's own.

[Hugh Neilson]

Life Support is largely flavour, and it should not cost 50 points to add flavour. 'nuff said?

[Vulcan]

'Nuff said.

[Southern Cross]

I agree.

[nexus]

Life Support is a very strange beast. Its usefulness can vary a great deal from campaign to campaign and Gm to Gm. Generally speaking in the supers campaigns I've been in it's a defense against NNDs and an occasional benefit in specific scenarios (Immunity to Heat and Limited/No Need to Breath can be very useful when rescuing people from a fire, for instance) but often it does seem over priced particularly LS like Longevity, No need to sleep and eat/excrete.

The thoughtful GM can give advantages for those abilities (such extended task taking less time since the character doesn't have to take breaks) but in general I haven't seen them be too useful in play. I can't speak for every campaign, of course. Maybe this could be handled with some GM advice for pricing LS for his setting? I agree with Vulcan that Powers shouldn't come with automatic Disadvantages. That essentially gives the Power a default SFX.

[James Gillen]

Life Support is a very strange beast. Its usefulness can vary a great deal from campaign to campaign and Gm to Gm. Generally speaking in the supers campaigns I've been in it's a defense against NNDs and an occasional benefit in specific scenarios (Immunity to Heat and Limited/No Need to Breath can be very useful when rescuing people from a fire, for instance) but often it does seem over priced particularly LS like Longevity, No need to sleep and eat/excrete.

The thoughtful GM can give advantages for those abilities (such extended task taking less time since the character doesn't have to take breaks) but in general I haven't seen them be too useful in play. I can't speak for every campaign, of course. Maybe this could be handled with some GM advice for pricing LS for his setting? I agree with Vulcan that Powers shouldn't come with automatic Disadvantages. That essentially gives the Power a default SFX.

Yes. It's a bit like saying "Armor" power is automatically going to be Visible as per the Limitation.

jg

[AnotherSkip]

total life support just seems to be paying to suck. OTOH if the Gm likes building deathtraps....

yeah it is too pricey.

And I am even looking at building a character with several life suppor options as a conversion character.
building an aquatic hero and he will need probably 50 points in stuff to make it survivable in the depths of the oceans (which is where he was converted to survive).

[BobGreenwade]

Hm. Apparently none of you have ever faced (or used) knockout gas, adventures requiring survival in desert or tundra, mentalists with sleep powers, underwater adventures, radioactive conditions, outer space, starvation, early-morning ambushes, or disease in your games. Some, especially the last few, I can understand, but the whole list...?

[CTaylor]

Life Support is largely flavour, and it should not cost 50 points to add flavour.

While I agree that at the present point the design of life support is more costly than its benefits, I wouldn't characterize the power as largely flavor (you Brits and your extra U's!)

There are a lot of places life support can be the difference between life and death, between fighting and being unconscious, and it can be a very important power.

[Vulcan]

Yes. It's a bit like saying "Armor" power is automatically going to be Visible as per the Limitation.

jg

zing....

I heard that!

[Vulcan]

Hm. Apparently none of you have ever faced (or used) knockout gas, adventures requiring survival in desert or tundra, mentalists with sleep powers, underwater adventures, radioactive conditions, outer space, starvation, early-morning ambushes, or disease in your games. Some, especially the last few, I can understand, but the whole list...?

We run into them occasionally. And for many of them, the price issue isn't too bad comapred to the utility of the LS. My big arguement is to reduce the price of Immunity to Disease and Poisons. They are simply too expensive for their very limited function.

[nexus]

Hm. Apparently none of you have ever faced (or used) knockout gas, adventures requiring survival in desert or tundra, mentalists with sleep powers, underwater adventures, radioactive conditions, outer space, starvation, early-morning ambushes, or disease in your games. Some, especially the last few, I can understand, but the whole list...?

I don't think anyone is saying LS is useless but that's it often too expensive for its cost. Generally, if all the group doesn't have a particular life support it rarely comes up, IME. Otherwise the session becomes and adventure for the characters that have it and everyone else has to sit out. Unless the GM gives them some "freebie" to allow them to come along. "Knockout gas" is a situational thing.

IME, "Survival in wilderness" generally comes up in Heroic games and involves the Survival skill. I can't say I've ever had starvation be a big issue as player or GM, it always seemed sort of unheroic. I have had characters ambushed in the toilet but again, a situational thing.

That's why I suggest addressing a sliding scale for Life Support in 6th. Some games it might be critical, others' not so much.

[Hugh Neilson]

While I agree that at the present point the design of life support is more costly than its benefits, I wouldn't characterize the power as largely flavor (you Brits and your extra U's!)

There are a lot of places life support can be the difference between life and death, between fighting and being unconscious, and it can be a very important power.

Brits? There are other countries that still know how to spell! By contrast, I'm only aware of one that continues to use the English measurement system - and it's not England!

Still, I suppose your dollar dropping as fast as it is, you can't afford luxuries like extra letters.

Absolutely, it can be very important. Would it be as useful, as often, as:

- +10 PD, ED, Mental Defense, Flash Defense and Power Defense
- +25 CON (with its attendant Figured's)
- +15 DEX and +2 Speed (including the DEX addition)
- a 5d6 0 END AP Sight Flash you can MPA with your main attack?

Because that's some alternatives I could buy instead of 50 points of Life Support. And if I have the defense for the NND, the attacker generally uses a different multipower slot, so it's not like the benefit is all that huge, although there certainly is a benefit.

[BobGreenwade]

I don't think anyone is saying LS is useless but that's it often too expensive for its cost.It sure looked like Hugh and Skip were saying LS is useless -- "largely flavour" and "paying to suck" both sound like they think there's no point to it in a game. I can go along with "Full Life Support" being too expensive at 50 points, and could certainly go along with a reduced cost scale, but that's a completely different question. In fact, "Full Life Support" has always struck me as being a bit expensive even in the earlier editions when it was only 40 points.
I have had characters ambushed in the toilet but again, a situational thing.Well, that's one way of getting caught with your pants down. :D

[nexus]

It sure looked like Hugh and Skip were saying LS is useless -- "largely flavour" and "paying to suck" both sound like they think there's no point to it in a game.

Fair enough though I chalked that up to "Internet hyperbole", IE: If you put 50 points into LS your character is going to "suck" relative to other characters that brought more generally useful abilities and the LS often ups a "flavor" power (My character doesn't have to sleep) and a defense against some NNDs so can be more expensive than it's useful. And your reply seemed to be addressed to the thread in general (or at least those the mentioned having issues with LS) and not specifically Hugh and Anotherskip.

[Vulcan]

Yeah, even in a 350 point game, 50 points for full life support hurts. And I rarely get to play in 350 point games, the average seems to be 275ish for our GM.

[BobGreenwade]

And your reply seemed to be addressed to the thread in general (or at least those the mentioned having issues with LS) and not specifically Hugh and Anotherskip.I didn't get the impression you were backing up those with general issues with LS, when you said that "nobody" is saying it's useless. I don't think Hugh qualifies as "nobody." (Sorry, Skip, I don't mean to be insulting but you've just shown too great ignorance of the system....)

[nexus]

I didn't get the impression you were backing up those with general issues with LS, when you said that "nobody" is saying it's useless. I don't think Hugh qualifies as "nobody." (Sorry, Skip, I don't mean to be insulting but you've just shown too great ignorance of the system....)

As I said,I don't think Hugh or Skip were saying LS was literally useless but perhaps overstating their point for effect. It happens online and it's easy to misread with the lack of tone of voice. Of course, I can't read their minds either so perhaps they do think it's useless.

[Hugh Neilson]

I didn't get the impression you were backing up those with general issues with LS, when you said that "nobody" is saying it's useless. I don't think Hugh qualifies as "nobody." (Sorry, Skip, I don't mean to be insulting but you've just shown too great ignorance of the system....)

I don't see it as useless. I see it as overpriced for its utility. See my list of comparable abilities.

[CTaylor]

Still, I suppose your dollar dropping as fast as it is, you can't afford luxuries like extra letters.

Exactly! We have to save letters where we are able to, can't be throwing them around willy nilly like that!

[AnotherSkip]

I didn't get the impression you were backing up those with general issues with LS, when you said that "nobody" is saying it's useless. I don't think Hugh qualifies as "nobody." (Sorry, Skip, I don't mean to be insulting but you've just shown too great ignorance of the system....)

Hey, be nice to the Guy With a Learning Disad Ya Hear?

Besides, which time was it that i showed too much ignorance of the system in particular that makes me a 'nobody'

Or it all that "I like Desolid" business?
"welcome to Caldera
I like Desolid
Welcome to Caldera
I like Desolid"


how about we have rules for an alternate to Life Support, something like classes of bodies (hang on a sec, it shouldn't be that bad).

EG: humans get viral diseases, mechanised lifeorms get computer viruses and software bugs.

then alot of the Sucking payage problem would go away.

[PhilFleischmann]

We run into them occasionally. And for many of them, the price issue isn't too bad comapred to the utility of the LS. My big arguement is to reduce the price of Immunity to Disease and Poisons. They are simply too expensive for their very limited function.
Agreed. It may annoy some people, but the cost of LS might have to vary depending on the nature of the campaign.

But it doesn't do much good to just say, "X is too expensive." Give the price structure that you would recommend.

Here's a rough suggestion for the cost(s) of LS off the top of my head that seems a bit more reasonable:

Reduced Eating 1-3 points (as it is now)
Reduced Sleeping 1-3 points (as it is now)
Safe Environments 1-2 points each (as it is now)
Aging: 1 point for double lifespan, 2 points for up to 10x lifespan, 3 points for immortality
Breathing: 1 point for 1 END/turn holding breath, 2 for 1 END/minute, 3 for 1 END/5 minutes, 4 for 1 END/20 minutes, 5 for 1 END/hour, 6 for 1 END/6 hours, 7 for no need to breathe. 2-3 points for each unusual environment you can breathe in depending on how common the environment is, e.g., 3 points to breathe under water.

Thus "full" LS (without the immunities) would cost only 25 points, rather than 30, and the immunities would be:

All Diseases for 5 points
All Poisons for 5 points
One or Some subset of diseases/poisons for 1-4 points each

Thus Full Life Support would cost 35 points, rather than 50.

How's that?

[BobGreenwade]

Agreed. It may annoy some people, but the cost of LS might have to vary depending on the nature of the campaign.

But it doesn't do much good to just say, "X is too expensive." Give the price structure that you would recommend.

Here's a rough suggestion for the cost(s) of LS off the top of my head that seems a bit more reasonable:

Reduced Eating 1-3 points (as it is now)
Reduced Sleeping 1-3 points (as it is now)
Safe Environments 1-2 points each (as it is now)
Aging: 1 point for double lifespan, 2 points for up to 10x lifespan, 3 points for immortality
Breathing: 1 point for 1 END/turn holding breath, 2 for 1 END/minute, 3 for 1 END/5 minutes, 4 for 1 END/20 minutes, 5 for 1 END/hour, 6 for 1 END/6 hours, 7 for no need to breathe. 2-3 points for each unusual environment you can breathe in depending on how common the environment is, e.g., 3 points to breathe under water.

Thus "full" LS (without the immunities) would cost only 25 points, rather than 30, and the immunities would be:

All Diseases for 5 points
All Poisons for 5 points
One or Some subset of diseases/poisons for 1-4 points each

Thus Full Life Support would cost 35 points, rather than 50.

How's that?I think this looks like, at worst, a very good start. :thumbup:

[AnotherSkip]

May I reccomend that Immortality for a PC actually be a disad?

after all you are risking eternity for xp. not a good trade IMNSHO.

[BobGreenwade]

May I reccomend that Immortality for a PC actually be a disad?

after all you are risking eternity for xp. not a good trade IMNSHO.You may recommend anything you want, but that doesn't make it a good idea. ;)

Kidding aside, in most games the only real in-game function of Immortality (as in the character does not age) is total immunity to age-based attacks, if that much. Few games I've played in have had a scope long enough to bring the Age Disadvantage onto someone's character sheet (where it wasn't there before, that is), let alone anyone having a risk of actually dying of old age. I'm aware of some campaigns lasting that long, and even going into multiple generations of heroes, but they're fairly rare.

I'd say Life Support: Longevity should be 1 point for "long-lived," 2 points for "very long-lived," and 3 points for "unaging." The GM can determine what qualifies for the first two categories; I'd tend to go with 250 and 1000 years as suggested lifespans.