Powers Issues -- A-E

[PhilFleischmann]

Maybe Captain Solar should buy 200% Damage Reduction so even a double dose of the advantage only subtracts 100% and he's still immune.
Of course, his DR could still be Dispelled/Suppressed/Drained, so he'll have to buy Power Defense or Power Damage Reduction, and Difficult to Dispel. It's never "absolute".

[Lucius]

Maybe Captain Solar should buy 200% Damage Reduction so even a double dose of the advantage only subtracts 100% and he's still immune.

Until someone buys three levels of Irreducible Damage and then Captain Solar is taking 50% Damage.

But this is the kind of arms race that has been implicitly possible since the Hardened advantage was introduced to counter Armor Piercing. In practice I don't think that's usually gotten out of hand, and it would be even less likely to in this case I think.

Lucius Alexander

Irreducible Palindromedary

[Ice9]

Of course, his DR could still be Dispelled/Suppressed/Drained, so he'll have to buy Power Defense or Power Damage Reduction, and Difficult to Dispel. It's never "absolute".Ironically, that reminds me one of thing is really is "absolute" - Inherent. Make a power Inherent and all the triple-Armor-Piercing double-Penetrating Drains in the world can't stop it. Which may be for the best, as I can't really see "dispelling" the Desolidification of a nanite swarm, for instance, but it is a bit amusing.

[Hugh Neilson]

Until someone buys three levels of Irreducible Damage and then Captain Solar is taking 50% Damage.

But this is the kind of arms race that has been implicitly possible since the Hardened advantage was introduced to counter Armor Piercing. In practice I don't think that's usually gotten out of hand, and it would be even less likely to in this case I think.

That one's a stupid arm's race. For the same price as 6d6 EB, double armor piercing, I could have a 12d6 EB which will be more effective against every target.

But the arms race has existed since the start. I have an 8d6 attack. You buy 32 defenses. So I buy my attack up to 12d6. And you bump your defenses up to 45.

[Blazar]

I think that HTH Attack, Energy Blast, Ego Attack, HTHKA and RKA should all be put into one power.

Attack
Bought as 5 points of strength with a -1/2 limitation in the same way that HTH Attack is currently.

For ranged attacks use the Ranged advantage. The rules for the limitation Strength Minima could be used here to create the current EB so that it doesn't include strength in the damage. Or create an Advantage that allows for strength to affect the damage, depending on which direction you like to go on if Ranged includes the cost of add strength to an attack or not.

For killing attacks use a new advantage called, Does Killing Damage that is a +2 advantage. This keeps it at the same basic cost as before 15 active points.

For mental attacks you would use the Based on Ego Combat Value advantage. This also gives the interesting idea of it not being ranged, and doing a touch mental attack.

Defense
I think they should all be defined as ED and PD with advantages and limitations.

Armour would be ED and/or PD that has the advantage Resistant.

Force Field would be ED and/or PD that has the advantage Resistant and the limitation Costs Endurance. I would also say it's possible that this would also allow for Force Fields that are not resistant.

Force Wall would use Force Field, but add the Ranged and Area Effect advantages to it.

edit: I also think that Mental Defence should be put in the defence area as well.

[PhilFleischmann]

I think that HTH Attack, Energy Blast, Ego Attack, HTHKA and RKA should all be put into one power.
...
Defense
I think they should all be defined as ED and PD with advantages and limitations.
I have to disagree. Nothing is gained by such a change. If you have one power in the book that has five different versions that you build with various Advantages and Limitations, such that the entire description takes up 15 column-inches, there's no benefit over five separate powers in the book that each takes up 3 column-inches.

Complexity isn't just a matter of more space taken up in the book, anyway. It's much simpler to have powers usable as-is from the book than to have to build everything from base powers plus modifiers, even if that takes more pages.

[Ice9]

Also, at least with the current way frameworks function, and Active Points being used as a campaign limit, you don't want any basic power to require a Limitation as part of its base cost.

For instance:
10d6 Energy Blast - 50 AP
10d6 Attack, No STR, Ranged - 75 AP

While they may have the same real-point cost (and that's only if other limits or advantages aren't taken), the second version gets screwed trying to fit into frameworks or campaign AP caps.

[The Main Man]

That's why I think that there should be an alternate Power Modifier Dichotomy - ones that affect the mechanical aspects of the power (Reduced/Increased END Cost, Extra Time, Continuous, etc) and ones that affect the special effects (Focus, Trigger, Usable by Other, etc).

[BobGreenwade]

A (very) minor note on notation for Entangle:

For Advantages like Works Against EGO, Not STR, the Not STR part can be dropped from the description. Those two words are unnecessary, and the comma just confuses the listing of Advantages. Works Against EGO is fine.

[The Main Man]

A (very) minor note on notation for Entangle:

For Advantages like Works Against EGO, Not STR, the Not STR part can be dropped from the description. Those two words are unnecessary, and the comma just confuses the listing of Advantages. Works Against EGO is fine.

Agreed.

[PhilFleischmann]

A (very) minor note on notation for Entangle:

For Advantages like Works Against EGO, Not STR, the Not STR part can be dropped from the description. Those two words are unnecessary, and the comma just confuses the listing of Advantages. Works Against EGO is fine.
Also agreed, especially since many characters will not be using STR to break out of Entangles anyway. They use EB, or KAs, or something else entirely.

[Lucius]

One more point for right now concerning the property of being immune to most physical and energy attacks, including ones such as Drains and No Normal Defense attacks. First, some observations:

1. Under the current rules, the only Power that grants the property of being immune to most physical and energy attacks, including ones such as Drains and No Normal Defense attacks, explicitly and in so many words is Desolidification. Someone wishing to attack, or otherwise have a significant impact on the environment or other characters, while Desolidified, is required to buy an expensive Advantage on whatever it is that they want to be effective while in that state.

2. Some people get a similar ability via "Self Only Force Wall." Again, to get around their own Force Wall they need an Advantage, namely Indirect.

3. Finally, it is possible to get an arguably even more extreme version of such an ability via Extradimensional Movement. This can make a character impossible even to perceive, let alone effect, without very special Powers or Advantages. But at the same time, it puts the normal game environment and other characters just as out of reach to the Power user, as the Power user is to them, and the exact same Powers and Advantages - Clairvoyance, and Indirect plus Transdimensional - are needed either to effect the Power user, or for the Power user to effect others.

I bring these cases up to approve of them, and vote for the continued inclusion of the same general principle. Whether the property of being immune to most physical and energy attacks, including ones such as Drains and No Normal Defense attacks, is made into its own power or (as seems logical) rolled into Extradimensional Movement or into Damage Reduction as 100%, I think it should remain necessary for any character so protected to use a large Advantage to be able to attack or effect other characters - either a large Advantage on the attacking Power, or a large Advantage on whatever power renders the character immune to most physical and energy attacks, including ones such as Drains and No Normal Defense attacks.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary notes that Lucius Alexander is still refining his position and will probably be back.

[Lucius]

I'm back.

To develop the point I was trying to make:

I think the principle "making yourself hard to effect makes it hard for you to effect others" can be refined a little.

I propose that it be modified to something like "When you make yourself immune to a certain class or category of effects, you forfeit the ability to use those effects."

As an example: If you have 100% Damage Reduction, Mental, you may not use Mental Powers. The character may HAVE Mental Powers, but may only use them if
1. The 100% Damage Reduction is not in effect, or
2. The target has a similar power with similar special effect - i.e. is in the same "class of mind" or
3. A large Advantage is put on the Mental Powers.

Or a character may take 100% Damage Reduction, Energy, and forfeit the use of Energy based attacks and powers. Or more narrowly, limit the protection to heat/flames and give up the use of fire attacks, or put an Advantage on them.

Granted, this gets more problematic if it extends to 100% Damage Reduction, Physical. That might work in a comic book or some science fiction games, but in many fantasy games buying such a physical damage immunity plus undadvantaged Energy or Mental attacks is probably paying too little for an overwhelmingly powerful combination of abilities.


In fact, one of the problems I have with the way the property of being immune to most physical and energy attacks, including ones such as Drains and No Normal Defense attacks works now in the game is not just that it's a Defense Power tied inextricably with a Movement Power, or that it's bound to only a limited set of special effects, but that I think it's too cheap. Even with the restrictions imposed.


But one could perhaps buy the monster Grendel with 100% Damage Reduction only Vs. Weapons, and a restriction against using weapons. (I wonder if Beowulf make a Tactics roll to figure out from the reports that the monster was immune to weapons....)

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary reflects that an unrestricted form of the property of being immune to most physical and energy attacks, including ones such as Drains and No Normal Defense attacks may be too dangerous to allow at any price, but wants the power anyway.

[Vulcan]

Or a character may take 100% Damage Reduction, Energy, and forfeit the use of Energy based attacks and powers. Or more narrowly, limit the protection to heat/flames and give up the use of fire attacks, or put an Advantage on them.

Ahh.. but one of the classic comic schticks is the guy with fire powers, whose 'hero form' is basically 'me on fire,' who is immune to fire... How does that work in your proposal? He can still be electrocuted, get radiation burns, and get clobbered by Cyclops' red eyebeams, but you just can't burn someone who's already burning!

[The Main Man]

As usual, I still think that, in the end, Absolutes should remain relative.


And now for something completely different.

Damage Resistance could also be an Adder.

[Lucius]

Ahh.. but one of the classic comic schticks is the guy with fire powers, whose 'hero form' is basically 'me on fire,' who is immune to fire... How does that work in your proposal? He can still be electrocuted, get radiation burns, and get clobbered by Cyclops' red eyebeams, but you just can't burn someone who's already burning!

He'd have a large Advantage on either the fire powers, or the fire resistance power.

Having an option to put a big (BIG) Advantage on the actual 100% Damage Reduction power called "Interact Freely" avoids the "paradox" problem you sometimes get of someone who has "Affects Solid World" on STR but can't pull a trigger or push a button if that unleashes a huge Power that they DIDN'T buy that Advantage for.....

Lucius Alexander

The property of being immune to most palindromedaries

[Vulcan]

So then Johnny Storm heavily outpoints the rest of the FF because he had to pay the +1 - +2 "I'm Immune To Fire But Still Have Fire Powers" Advantage on all his attack powers? And I don't think I've ever seen Thor get hurt by electricity either, does he have the big "Immune to Electicity but has Electrical Powers" advantage too?

So how does that make senes? Can Iceman buy Immunity to fire and still attack with his ice powers? They're not fire powers, by your logic he should be able to.

I favor an approach where someone can purhcase immunity to tightly defined special FX, subject to GM approval. Immune to fire? Sure. After all, Thor will light your world up with a lightning bolt if you get too big for your britches...

[Hugh Neilson]

And why not buy immunity to powers you are a logical target for? The Brick can buy Immunity to Mental Powers, for example. Logically, he should be more resistant to physical attack, but this pricing drives him towards resistance to illogical effects.

[Lucius]

And why not buy immunity to powers you are a logical target for? The Brick can buy Immunity to Mental Powers, for example. Logically, he should be more resistant to physical attack, but this pricing drives him towards resistance to illogical effects.


I thought the idea was good enough to throw it out there; I'm not that invested in it. If no one else sees value in it, it's probably an intellectual dead end.

One thing I may put up a defense for, though, is what I said here:


Having an option to put a big (BIG) Advantage on the actual 100% Damage Reduction power called "Interact Freely" avoids the "paradox" problem you sometimes get of someone who has "Affects Solid World" on STR but can't pull a trigger or push a button if that unleashes a huge Power that they DIDN'T buy that Advantage for.....

Although I'm starting to think that maybe the simplest solution, and one that involves little real cost, is to drop the property of being immune to most physical and energy attacks, including ones such as Drains and No Normal Defense attacks, by whatever name we call it, from the game entirely.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary wonders how long Lucius can go on avoiding the "I" word.

[Vulcan]

And why not buy immunity to powers you are a logical target for? The Brick can buy Immunity to Mental Powers, for example. Logically, he should be more resistant to physical attack, but this pricing drives him towards resistance to illogical effects.

And what in the typical brick's power suite justifies Immunity to mental powers?

That's what the little magnifying glass is for on the powers that need extra GM scrutiny - to prevent munchkin players from exploiting the letter of the rules to the detriment of the game.

[PhilFleischmann]

I propose that it be modified to something like "When you make yourself immune to a certain class or category of effects, you forfeit the ability to use those effects."
But why should that principle apply to 100% Damage Reduction, but not, say, 75% Damage Reduction? And why Damage Reduction, but not plain old defenses? If I have 75% DR vs Mental Powers, plus 20 Mental DEF and a 30 EGO, I'm practically immune to all Mind Control, Mental Illusions, etc., but can still use them freely on others.

To me, the key is making sure that 100% DR is correctly priced to take into account the effective "total immunity". Which Is why I had proposed 80 points for 100% non-Resistant DR, and 120 for 100% Resitant DR.

Also, I don't remembe whether it in the rules or my house rules, but I allow Non-Resistant DR to be purchased for Mental, which affects Mental Attack only, or Resistant, which affects All Mental Powers. And similarly with Flash and Power DEF-type attacks.

Thus, In my games (and as I would propose for 6e), you can be completely immune to all Physical and Energy damage for a total of 240 points. You'd still be hit by Mental Powers, Flashes, Drains/Transfers/Suppress/Dispel, Transforms, most UAA powers, and Entangles. Thus for 330 points, you can be immune to Phys & NRG damage, 75% Immune to Mental Powers, and 50% immune to Adjustment Powers. That gives your 350-point superhero, 20 points left to buy all his characteristics, skills, attacks, movement, CV, etc. Good luck with that. And of course, you can still be Flashed or Entangled.

IMO, a general principle of the game system should be (and is) that you really can buy/build anything, not matter how powerful, if you're willing to spend the points. Even in a 350-point Champions game, most characters can't afford 120 points for immunity to one complete damage type. Of course, you could always take a -1 Limitation (or whatever) for "Only vs. Fire", which reduces the cost to 60, and that might be viable for certain characters.

But because you've already spent so much on this "immunity" there is no restriction on using powers of that SFX. And don't forget that even your 100% DR can still be Drained/Suppressed/Dispelled.

So yes, Total Invulnerability is possible, it just costs a hell of a lot!


I thought the idea was good enough to throw it out there; I'm not that invested in it. If no one else sees value in it, it's probably an intellectual dead end.
I am glad to see you're open-minded about this. That's the way we should all be here. It's largely just brainstorming that we're doing here - we throw out any ideas we think of, and buiild/refine from there.

And speaking of refining (I can't resist :sneaky:), as gung-ho about granularity as I am, I'll mention that I also allow other, interpolated values of Damage Reduction, besides just 25%, 50%, 75%, and 100% (which BTW, I think should be described by the amount of damage taken, rather than removed - it just seems clearer, and more intuitive that way). So if 1/2 damage is 20/30 and 1/4 damage is 40/60, then 1/3 damage can be 30/45. And if 0 damage is 80/120, then 1/6 damage is 50/75, 1/10 damage is 60/90, and 1/20 damage is 70/105.

And yes, of course and values of DR over 75% would probably need a magnafying glass/warning sign.

[Lucius]

And what in the typical brick's power suite justifies Immunity to mental powers?

That's what the little magnifying glass is for on the powers that need extra GM scrutiny - to prevent munchkin players from exploiting the letter of the rules to the detriment of the game.

Magnifying glass? We're talking about something that warrants a full Stop Sign!

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary comes to a full stop and looks both ways.

[Hugh Neilson]

And what in the typical brick's power suite justifies Immunity to mental powers?

Nothing - well, except that they tend to be very stubborn and strong-willed. But, if you don't accept that, then why should the system provide a lower cost for Bricks to be invulnerable to mental powers than the cost applied to a mentalist, clearly the character with the best power suite justification?

[Vulcan]

Magnifying glass? We're talking about something that warrants a full Stop Sign!

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary comes to a full stop and looks both ways.

That works too.

[Vulcan]

Nothing - well, except that they tend to be very stubborn and strong-willed. But, if you don't accept that, then why should the system provide a lower cost for Bricks to be invulnerable to mental powers than the cost applied to a mentalist, clearly the character with the best power suite justification?

And yet the Juggernaut falls before Professor X - or any other mentalist in the comic - as soon as the helmet (50+ Mental Defense OIF?) comes off, in spite of the fact that Cain Marko seems to be a pretty stubborn guy.

"Stubborn" is a psych limit. "Strong-willed" is a high EGO. There's nothing wrong with a brick who has both. And under the right circumstances, both can help against a mental attack. On the other hand, a clever mentalist can make that 'Stubborn' work against the Juggernaut as well...

But a Brick who wants immunity to mental attacks (perhaps that's the best way to model Juggie's helmet - OIF, of course! ;)) had better have one heck of a justification for it.

A Mentalist, on the other hand, might be justified in having it... again, I would have to see the justification (the mentalist Legion might have it, because there are over 100 distinct personalities in his mind... which one do you control, and how do you keep another one from taking over! :D). Sure, you can't mind-control him... but how many teams try to mind-control mentalists in the first place? Easier to send the Brick over to squish him flat, or have the Energy Projector blast him into next week...

Saying the guy who has fire powers, can set himself on fire without harm, and wants to be totally immune to fire, must therfore pay double or triple cost on fire attacks verges on the ridiculous. Because then, it becomes more point effective for him to totally ignore concept and have his 'on fire' guy shoot lightning bolts - because he doesn't have to pay double for that FX. :nonp:

[Balabanto]

Speaking of Works against EGO, not STR, it's my contention that this advantage, regardless of whether or not it contains the last two words, really does cost too much.

It's my contention that the value of this advantage should be 1.5. If you need your ego to break out of it, and you can't target it with attacks, a really strong willed person is a 20. He MIGHT be able to get out before he gets kayoed. And quite frankly, there aren't a lot of them. 20 is NOT a common EGO score. Most characters in all the games I've played in have EGO in the 10-15 range.

If that's the case, the Ego Entangle is, in effect, a finishing power. Because once it hits you, and it probably will, you ARE finished. My players, most of whom are engineers and have done bell curves on this until the cows came home, determined that if you were rolling 4 dice to break out of a 3 DEF 2d6 body mental entangle, you would be unconscious before you managed to escape from a 7 DEF, 7d6 Entangle with a 10d6 EB. The math is clear. This advantage needs to be either super expensive, or super removed from the game.

[ajackson]

Speaking of Works against EGO, not STR, it's my contention that this advantage, regardless of whether or not it contains the last two words, really does cost too much.
Perhaps you mean 'too little'? In any case, I agree that mental entangles are broken.

[Hugh Neilson]

Saying the guy who has fire powers, can set himself on fire without harm, and wants to be totally immune to fire, must therfore pay double or triple cost on fire attacks verges on the ridiculous. Because then, it becomes more point effective for him to totally ignore concept and have his 'on fire' guy shoot lightning bolts - because he doesn't have to pay double for that FX. :nonp:

It sounds like we don't disagree - the proposal encourages characters to buy immunities out of concept, which is why I dislike it.

[PhilFleischmann]

Magnifying glass? We're talking about something that warrants a full Stop Sign!
The magnifying glass (warning sign) and the stop sign mean two different things. One is not merely the more intense version of the other.

[BobGreenwade]

I just came across something that's worth thinking about.

I was trying to build a Wall of Lead power, based on Entangle, that would form a barrier with not only DEF but Power Defense. I couldn't quite manage it, but it did get me to thinking that such a thing should be possible. I don't think it should be a core part of the Power unless Entangle and Barrier are separated into two separate Powers, but a few words (one paragraph) on things like Linked Power Defense might be useful.

[IndianaJoe3]

Time for my final thoughts on Powers (A-E).

Change Environment
CE can now be used to change light levels. It costs 3 points for +/- one light level. CE may not reduce the light level below zero.

Endurance Reserve
END Reserve no longer exists as a power. To replace the effect, purchase END and REC as Powers.

[The Main Man]

I guess I'll toss in my final $.02.

Aid should:
1) Cost END to use
2) Fade per Phase
3) Cost 5 CP/d6
4) Be capped off at its maximum die roll
5) Be able to purchase additional "Fade Buffer" points at 1 CP/2 points

Drain should conform the changes made to Aid

Succor and Suppress should thusly be eliminated (I think that the above changes neatly compromise the counterparts)

Absorption should be defensive by default - I'd like to see a handful of example characters who were hurt while still absorbing damage - IOW, that seems more like an exception rather than a rule.


Energy Blast's name should be changed to Ranged Attack for logical consistency.

[IndianaJoe3]

Aid should:
...
5) Be able to purchase additional "Fade Buffer" points at 1 CP/2 points

What do you mean by, "Fade Buffer"?

[Klaus Mogensen]

What do you mean by, "Fade Buffer"?
My guess is that these are points that don't add to the effect, but delay when the effective points start to fade. I.e., you can go a few extra turns before the points start to fade.

- Klaus

[Hugh Neilson]

I guess I'll toss in my final $.02.

Aid should:
1) Cost END to use
2) Fade per Phase
3) Cost 5 CP/d6
4) Be capped off at its maximum die roll
5) Be able to purchase additional "Fade Buffer" points at 1 CP/2 points

Drain should conform the changes made to Aid

Succor and Suppress should thusly be eliminated (I think that the above changes neatly compromise the counterparts)

Absorption should be defensive by default - I'd like to see a handful of example characters who were hurt while still absorbing damage - IOW, that seems more like an exception rather than a rule.

Adjustment powers need to be made reasonably priced for their base effects. If that means the "longer fade rate" and "multiple abilities" advantages need to change, or be eliminated, so be it. Why should you be able to drain four characteristics of your choice for the same cost as two Drains anyway? Buy the four Drains as a Linked attack. You want any four characteristics? Buy four Drains with "any one characteristic" as a linked attack.

Drain + Aid self Only is a Transfer. Absorption is a limited form of Aid.

It should be possible to build Aid from Healing and Healing from Aid.

Advantages and limitations on adjustment powers could vary in value depending on the type of power. Self only on Aid is much more limited than -1/2. Longer recovery rate is much more useful on powers I use to buff myself than powers I use to depower the enemy.

[Ice9]

With those changes though, Self-Only Aid becomes entirely worthless, and even standard Aid is dubiously useful compared to Usable By Other.

[The Main Man]

Adjustment powers need to be made reasonably priced for their base effects. If that means the "longer fade rate" and "multiple abilities" advantages need to change, or be eliminated, so be it. Why should you be able to drain four characteristics of your choice for the same cost as two Drains anyway? Buy the four Drains as a Linked attack. You want any four characteristics? Buy four Drains with "any one characteristic" as a linked attack.

Drain + Aid self Only is a Transfer. Absorption is a limited form of Aid.

It should be possible to build Aid from Healing and Healing from Aid.

Advantages and limitations on adjustment powers could vary in value depending on the type of power. Self only on Aid is much more limited than -1/2. Longer recovery rate is much more useful on powers I use to buff myself than powers I use to depower the enemy.

1. An Adjustment Power that affects multiple powers/CHAR is weaker against Power Defense (which is IMO underpriced) than a single Adjustment Power which will have more dice per Active Points.It also simplifies things a little bit.2. Oops, forgot to mention that if such changes were wrought then Transfer should obviously reflect them.3. Transfer exists for simplicity, as does Absorption, at least if it would be naturally Defensive otherwise I would agree that Absorption is simply an Aid construct.4. I think, in light of Balabanto's post and with a little more thinking, that Aid and Drain could harmlessly carry on by continuing to Fade at 5/Turn.

[Klaus Mogensen]

One thing I would like to see with Aid and other Adjustment Powers is the option of getting increments of 10 points rather than having to roll dice.

Perhaps a 10-point effect with no higher maximum effect could be equivalent to 2½d6 (average 9, max 15). Or a 10-point effect with maximum 20 could be the equivalent of 3d6 (average 10.5, max 18).

- Klaus

[Hugh Neilson]

1. An Adjustment Power that affects multiple powers/CHAR is weaker against Power Defense (which is IMO underpriced) than a single Adjustment Power which will have more dice per Active Points.

Um...no. 4d6 Drain, Affects 4 Characteristics vs 10 Power Defense (say STR, CON, DEX and STUN) gets its 4d6 roll, minus 10, against each characteristic. 4d6 Aid, affects 4 characteristics (say STR, CON, DEX and STUN) is unaffacted by power defense.

4d6 STR Drain + 4d6 CON Drain + 4d6 DEX Drain + 4d6 STUN Drain, all Linked, vs 10 Power Defense gets its 4d6 roll, minus 10, against each characteristic. 4d6 STR Drain + 4d6 CON Drain + 4d6 DEX Drain + 4d6 STUN Drain, all Linked, is unaffacted by power defense.

In other words, this would not change the impact of power defense at all.

I also disagree with your conclusion power defense is underpriced. If I did agree, then I would have to conclude that all defenses are underpriced.


2. Oops, forgot to mention that if such changes were wrought then Transfer should obviously reflect them.3. Transfer exists for simplicity, as does Absorption, at least if it would be naturally Defensive otherwise I would agree that Absorption is simply an Aid construct.

I don't believe Transfer or Absorption should be removed, though I am not in favour of Absorption granting defenses by default. I am in favour of them being priced more rationally, and working more like the powers they emulate. Transfer should not require double purchase of advantages, nor should its Drain aspect stop working if its Aid aspect has capped out. Not unless the price is reduced to reflect these deficiencies. I should not be able to build a more effective and less expensive construct with Linked Drain and Aid.

[The Main Man]

I agree that Transfer should not require twice the advantages to be only as effective as Drain Linked to Aid Self Only.

After all, it's already more expensive for a reason.

As for Drain though, I was under the mistaken impression that you meant that 1d6 Drain Four CHAR/Powers at once (+1) (20 AP) was effectively better than 2d6 Drain but now you've clarified.

[ajackson]

I'm starting to be fond of the idea of eliminating Aid/Absorption entirely. Instead, have a power limitation:

'Absorption: -XXX. This power is not available at the beginning of a fight; instead, it only becomes available after you have absorbed a certain amount of damage'.
'Transfer: -XXX. This power is not available at the beginning of a fight; instead, it only becomes available after you have done a certain amount of damage'.
Aid: eliminate entirely; replace with a 'requires preparation' limitation, plus UBO if you want to aid others.

[SCUBA Hero]

Aid: The thing I want to see is Aiding a Characteristic costing (about) the same as just buying the Characteristic outright if the Power can be on all the time at an average roll if it's Self Only. I see Aid as being a Limited Characteristic (that is, if I can buy +10 STR that's active all the time, being only able to Aid an average of +10 STR so many times a day should cost less).

[AnotherSkip]

Um...no. 4d6 Drain, Affects 4 Characteristics vs 10 Power Defense (say STR, CON, DEX and STUN) gets its 4d6 roll, minus 10, against each characteristic. 4d6 Aid, affects 4 characteristics (say STR, CON, DEX and STUN) is unaffacted by power defense.

Er try 4d6 Drain STR, CON, DEX and STUN is an 80 point power gets its 4d6 roll, minus 10, against each characteristic.
an 8d6 Drain Stun is an 80 point power too and gets its 8d6 roll, minus 10, against a characteristic.

[Hugh Neilson]

Er try 4d6 Drain STR, CON, DEX and STUN is an 80 point power gets its 4d6 roll, minus 10, against each characteristic.
an 8d6 Drain Stun is an 80 point power too and gets its 8d6 roll, minus 10, against a characteristic.

And 4d6 Drain STUN is a 40 point power which gets its 4d6 roll, minus 10, against STR. 4d6 Drain STUN + 4d6 Drain CON is an 80 point power which gets its 4d6 roll, minus 10, against STR.

Should I be able to buy an 8d6 Energy Blast, with a +1 advantage, and roll 4 8d6 Energy Blasts, each doing its base damage, for 80 points? How about an 8d6 Energy Blast with the +1 advantage "Four Attacks", so it's an 8d6 EB vs PD, a 2 1/2d6 RKA, an 8d6 Flash and an 8d6 EB vs ED?

There's no reason it should be an advantage to turn one attack into multiple attacks. Buy the multiple attacks and, if they can only be used together, Link them.

[ajackson]

Should I be able to buy an 8d6 Energy Blast, with a +1 advantage, and roll 4 8d6 Energy Blasts, each doing its base damage, for 80 points?
To be honest, that looks pretty plausible in terms of price vs effect, and is reasonably comparable to autofire.

[Hugh Neilson]

To be honest, that looks pretty plausible in terms of price vs effect, and is reasonably comparable to autofire.

And the second example? I'd be OK with leveling the playing field either way, frankly.

[ajackson]

And the second example? I'd be OK with leveling the playing field either way, frankly.
The second example is slightly superior since it targets multiple different defenses, but I'm not at all convinced its actually unbalanced (linked attacks are only useful if they let you bypass active point limits; otherwise they're garbage). However, I'm having trouble coming up with a game mechanic which actually permits that construct.

[Hugh Neilson]

The second example is slightly superior since it targets multiple different defenses, but I'm not at all convinced its actually unbalanced (linked attacks are only useful if they let you bypass active point limits; otherwise they're garbage). However, I'm having trouble coming up with a game mechanic which actually permits that construct.

There isn't one. It would need to be an expansion of the "add a +1/4 advantage to double the abilities affected by adjustment powers" to "add a +1/4 advantage to double the different attacks included in a single shot" .

[ajackson]

There isn't one. It would need to be an expansion of the "add a +1/4 advantage to double the abilities affected by adjustment powers" to "add a +1/4 advantage to double the different attacks included in a single shot" .
I mean, a way to write up that mechanic in a usable form. It would probably have to be some form of multipower quirk.

Note that the bonus to Aid is typically more like '+1/2 to have a 20/20 force field linked to my 8d6 EB', which is most certainly unbalanced. I'm not a big fan of the aid advantages that let you aid multiple abilities at once, except for feeling there should be a way to aid a multipower.

[Markdoc]

The second example is slightly superior since it targets multiple different defenses, but I'm not at all convinced its actually unbalanced (linked attacks are only useful if they let you bypass active point limits; otherwise they're garbage).

Actually, linked attacks aren't garbage: I both use them and see them used by players in games where active point limits don't exist. They are useful for simulating attacks that have multiple effects. If you almost always use the attacks together, and the PC conception is that they are a single attack with multiple effects, it makes sense to take a limitation that they can only be used together and save some points.

cheers, Mark

[Balabanto]

Transfer should be the base power, and Drain should be a -1/2 Limitation. That solves it nicely, I think.

Plus, in low powered games, that takes the onus off the fact that not a lot of people have power defense.

[Steve Long]

Hey folx! It's time for me to start reading all the 6E threads, and that means I need to lock them.

Hopefully 15 months has been plenty of time for anyone who wanted to have a say, to have a say. ;) So please, don't start up other threads to try to continue discussions, send me PMs with points you "just have to make," or anything like that. It's time for y'all to sit back, relax, have a frosty beverage, and let me get 6E written. ;)

We definitely appreciate everyone's interest, participation, and ideas! I'm looking forward to reading the posts and seeing what nuggets of wisdom lurk therein. I have no doubt 6E is going to be even better than it would have been because of our fans' enthusiastic efforts at providing us with input and suggestions. :hex: