Powers Issues -- General Questions

[Hugh Neilson]

We can be a little more realistic about our numbers.

Assuming that in a superheroic game, REC scores run about 12-20. Assume a character with Power Defense might have 10-15, and that most characters probably won't. That gives us a minimum of 24, probable average of 40-44, probable maximum of 55 points that need to be Suppressed. 18d6 Suppress with Standard Effect hits 54 points. Or two uses of 9d6 Suppress. One use of 9d6 Suppresses 27 points, which knocks down 13 REC by itself, assuming no Power Defense.

"What gives - I've surrounded his head with three feet of water and he's still breathing. Maybe he can breathe underwater!"

"No, he just has lots of Power Defense!"

[Chris Goodwin]

"What gives - I've surrounded his head with three feet of water and he's still breathing. Maybe he can breathe underwater!"

"No, he just has lots of Power Defense!"

With Suppress, you can keep piling it on, as long as you can spend the END. Five, six uses, more even.

Six uses of 9d6 would Suppress 162 Active Points. 31 REC after 100 Power Defense, if you want.

Edit: Actually that's not true. 100 Power Defense would mean you'd have six uses of Suppress, each knocked down 100 points. So, you make the Suppress, Suppress REC and Power Defense that protects breathing or REC.

That same Power Defense also protects the character against diseases, toxins, and magical Transforms -- which is an indictment of Power Defense rather than the validity of representing suffocation with Suppress REC.

[JmOz]

"What gives - I've surrounded his head with three feet of water and he's still breathing. Maybe he can breathe underwater!"

"No, he just has lots of Power Defense!"

I personaly have advocated for the removal of Power Defence from the game, make all current PowD powered work against a standard defence (This is sister to my idea that MD become Standard) based on F/X

[Hugh Neilson]

With Suppress, you can keep piling it on, as long as you can spend the END. Five, six uses, more even.

Six uses of 9d6 would Suppress 162 Active Points. 31 REC after 100 Power Defense, if you want.

Edit: Actually that's not true. 100 Power Defense would mean you'd have six uses of Suppress, each knocked down 100 points. So, you make the Suppress, Suppress REC and Power Defense that protects breathing or REC.

So now we have an ability which is 50% more expensive, and still needs to punch through that Power Defense to actually affect power defense. And how many attacks with a huge globe of water, or a force wall over their head, or transformation of all oxygen in an area to methane, should it take to accumulate enough impact to prevent someone from breathing?

In the time it would take to work out all this in order to build an effect that might actually model suffocation, I suspect a Suffocation power (or adder to relevant powers such as Entangle, Force Wall and Change Environment) could be designed many times over. Let's just add the power - and anyone who doesn't like it can feel free to use whatever Rec Suppress and Bizarre Drain construct they prefer. :nonp:

That same Power Defense also protects the character against diseases, toxins, and magical Transforms -- which is an indictment of Power Defense rather than the validity of representing suffocation with Suppress REC.

If it's an indictment of anything, it's an indictment of the Adjustment Power structure overall, not just the fact there is a defense against Adjustment Powers. And Suppress is an Adjustment Power, so it would be part of the problem.

[SteveZilla]

"What gives - I've surrounded his head with three feet of water and he's still breathing. Maybe he can breathe underwater!"

"No, he just has lots of Power Defense!"

Perhaps he has big lungs and was holding his breath?

Perhaps it's a good thing that a suffocation power not be an instantaneously assertible effect? Y'know perhaps for game balance? ;)

One of the problems with a suffocation power is that IMO it needs more than just life support as a defense/means to stop the effect.

Here's another question for the issue. If a character can't Recover while suffocating, can they Regenerate?

[Vulcan]

"What gives - I've surrounded his head with three feet of water and he's still breathing. Maybe he can breathe underwater!"

"No, he just has lots of Power Defense!"

Make the Supress REC NND. Or use TK to 'grab and choke.'

Supress REC is, in my opinion, the only fair way to do a suffocation power 'by the book.' Why? Because suffocation removes the ability to recover from a character. So that makes it a Drain/Supress by the rules. And since the effect is removed fully once the 'suffocation' attempt has ended, that leaves out Drain.

Any 'Suffocation Power' that isn't priced similarly to a Supress REC (I'd settle for the raw Supress, not even counting the NND to make it accurate) of a level appropriate for the campaign would be horribly broken. Games devolve into a 'suffocationfest' because it's the cheapest way to take someone out of the fight, so EVERY character has it in some form or another.

It would be like having a power that automatically Knocked Out a target regardless of how much STUN the character had. No one would want E-Blast, and even RKA's would only be used for the killing blow...

[AnotherSkip]

I personaly have advocated for the removal of Power Defence from the game, make all current PowD powered work against a standard defence (This is sister to my idea that MD become Standard) based on F/X

I kinda like this.

[Hugh Neilson]

Perhaps he has big lungs and was holding his breath?

Holding your breath invokes the Suffocation rules...

Perhaps it's a good thing that a suffocation power not be an instantaneously assertible effect? Y'know perhaps for game balance? ;)

Game balance comes down to pricing. The price of this ability should be commensurate with its utility.

Here's another question for the issue. If a character can't Recover while suffocating, can they Regenerate?

Sure. Nothing in Regeneration says you don't Regenerate while denied oxygen, and the whole purpose of the Suffocation power is to invoke the efects of the target being denied oxygen.

Make the Supress REC NND. Or use TK to 'grab and choke.'

So now it's twice as expensive, and you still have to hope no one has enough REC to avoid it. Or it doesn't work against someone with a stiff neck covering.

Supress REC is, in my opinion, the only fair way to do a suffocation power 'by the book.' Why? Because suffocation removes the ability to recover from a character. So that makes it a Drain/Supress by the rules. And since the effect is removed fully once the 'suffocation' attempt has ended, that leaves out Drain.

If the rules included a suffociation power, then that would be a way to removes the ability to recover from a character (assuming that character needs to breathe) with no a Drain/Supress by the rules.

Any 'Suffocation Power' that isn't priced similarly to a Supress REC (I'd settle for the raw Supress, not even counting the NND to make it accurate) of a level appropriate for the campaign would be horribly broken.

So you're OK with changing the cost from a REC Suppress NND. As Groucho Marx once said, now we're just haggling over the price.

Games devolve into a 'suffocationfest' because it's the cheapest way to take someone out of the fight, so EVERY character has it in some form or another.

I think you vastly overestimate the speed and effectiveness of suffocation. Given I need 16d6 Standard Effect Suppress to Suppress that 24 REC, I think the opponent's equivalent power 16d6 EB will probably take me out of the fight long before he runs out of END and STUN from my "vastly overpowered" suffocation attack - withoout me paying for NND or the END/STUN/BOD loss!

[SteveZilla]

There is the fact that Dying from Suffocation by the RaW takes a long time. And some people might be thinking of the more cinematic (i.e., Hollywood Science) Suffocation -- where the target is usually unconscious within a matter of seconds, and is often presumed to also be dead.

This is one place IMO where the rules should not follow the body of fiction (i.e., it shouldn't be that quick).

It may be that some people's objection to it being an inexpensive thing to cause, is that a character could add it to a power that makes it more effective, like something that immobilizes.

Total Body Paralysis: Entangle 1d6, 1DEF, BOECV, No Barriers, Suffocating

(Forgive the sloppy build, it's from memory while at work between tasks). Slap this little power on a target you've just knocked out and he'll never regain consciousness -- no REC after all. And being BOECV, it's less likely for a teammate to be able to free him from it.

However, I think it could work as an Adder for certain powers/builds. Maybe a 40 pt Adder? I could see it being an Adder to powers like Change Environment, Darkness, Entangle, Suppress, Force Wall, Clinging, TK, Desolidification (UAA), and Tunneling (UAA) to name a few. One of the requirements for the Adder IMO would be either a Constant power or one that produces a continuing effect on the character that can be targetted seperately by some means.

[Hugh Neilson]

There is the fact that Dying from Suffocation by the RaW takes a long time. And some people might be thinking of the more cinematic (i.e., Hollywood Science) Suffocation -- where the target is usually unconscious within a matter of seconds, and is often presumed to also be dead.

And such players can use the current builds of large NND's.

This is one place IMO where the rules should not follow the body of fiction (i.e., it shouldn't be that quick).

As well, the source material varies. Consider the many movie and TC scenes of characters underwater or in space working to accomplish some crucial goal before they run out of oxygen and pass out.

It may be that some people's objection to it being an inexpensive thing to cause, is that a character could add it to a power that makes it more effective, like something that immobilizes.

Total Body Paralysis: Entangle 1d6, 1DEF, BOECV, No Barriers, Suffocating

(Forgive the sloppy build, it's from memory while at work between tasks). Slap this little power on a target you've just knocked out and he'll never regain consciousness -- no REC after all. And being BOECV, it's less likely for a teammate to be able to free him from it.

I can think of lots of cheesy builds. Try an NND vs, say, "need not breathe", uncontrolled, continuous at the same AP. And then the 'hero' doesn't kill his targets.

How does a teammate free him from the poison gas in his lungs? There must be a shutoff for Uncontrolled, but it will likely be inconvenient at best.

However, I think it could work as an Adder for certain powers/builds. Maybe a 40 pt Adder? I could see it being an Adder to powers like Change Environment, Darkness, Entangle, Suppress, Force Wall, Clinging, TK, Desolidification (UAA), and Tunneling (UAA) to name a few. One of the requirements for the Adder IMO would be either a Constant power or one that produces a continuing effect on the character that can be targetted seperately by some means.

I think an adder is reasonable. The pricing is the hard part. On the one hand, there is a powerful potential to the effect. On the other, it's slow so it's not very effective in combat. Getting a price where this is a reasonable option - neither overly effective nor vastly excessive as compared to adding 40 AP to the underlying power - is the challenge.

I note that Tunneling, UAA, close the hole, or Desolid UAA plus move him into the ground probably already suffocates, as well as entirely removing the character from the fight. That is significantly more powerful and should cost significantly more. My gut feel is the simple invocation of the suffocation rules combined with an Entangle or Force Wall should not be all that expensive. Suffocation that's more difficult to end would justifiably be more expensive, but 40 points still "feels" excessive.

Mind you, I also feel REC is overpriced, so that may be part of why Suppress feels like an overpriced approach.

[Vulcan]

So now it's twice as expensive, and you still have to hope no one has enough REC to avoid it. Or it doesn't work against someone with a stiff neck covering.

Or you have a GM who works with you on the FX.

If the rules included a suffociation power, then that would be a way to removes the ability to recover from a character (assuming that character needs to breathe) with no a Drain/Supress by the rules.

Sure, but is it needed? I see a way to do it within the rules as they stand now. It's expensive, but then you're trying to build a power that would make the game very very not fun for the poor player whose character you're using it on.

It's one thing to blast him into GM's Optionland. It's quite another to beat him down by millimeters over a couple turns. It is intensely frustrating.

So you're OK with changing the cost from a REC Suppress NND. As Groucho Marx once said, now we're just haggling over the price.

Actually, I think the cost of Supress is about right. I don't want Suffocation to become a cheap replacement for it.

I think you vastly overestimate the speed and effectiveness of suffocation. Given I need 16d6 Standard Effect Suppress to Suppress that 24 REC, I think the opponent's equivalent power 16d6 EB will probably take me out of the fight long before he runs out of END and STUN from my "vastly overpowered" suffocation attack - withoout me paying for NND or the END/STUN/BOD loss!

No, I have a pretty good idea just how long it would take to defeat a character using only suffocation. The problem comes when there are other options available to the attacker in addition.

Ultimately what would do the target in wouldn't be the suffocation, it would be the other guys beating on him when his ability to defend himself is reduced. Combats begin with the Stragler picking a target, and the rest of the team gang-banging him because they know he's not getting a PS-12 if he survives the segment. And now the target has to watch his END costs like a hawk because he not only isn't getting any recoveries to replace END, he's also low on STUN.

Now on Phase 2-3 (depending on team Speeds), the Strangler maintains the Suppress on target 1 (now in dire shape between spending END and getting beat on), and targets another victim. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Victory comes not from being more tactical/experinced/powerful, but which team has more 'stranglers' on the roster if Suffocation is too cheap.

I think Supress REC works just fine for the effect.

[Vulcan]

Mind you, I also feel REC is overpriced, so that may be part of why Suppress feels like an overpriced approach.

There is that. Although for most of my characters, cheaper REC would just cause me buy twice as much (pointwise) :D

[Hugh Neilson]

Or you have a GM who works with you on the FX.

So for FX, I get a half price NND? Is that any more fair? How about "My SFX is a Continuous Waterblast EB, so it also suffocates anyone who can't breathe water? Mechanics and SFX are different items. SFX should provide minor advantages offset by minor drawbacks. Major advantages should be paid for and major drawbacks should be limitations.

Sure, but is it needed? I see a way to do it within the rules as they stand now. It's expensive, but then you're trying to build a power that would make the game very very not fun for the poor player whose character you're using it on.

I keep hearing "we can already build it", but every build deviates from the actual game effects of suffocation, even before considering whether the cost is justified by the benefit. This is simply not worth the 100+ points it would cost to have an appropriate NND Suppress. Spend that 100+ points on an NND STUN suppress instead and take down most, if not all, targets in a single shot.

It's one thing to blast him into GM's Optionland. It's quite another to beat him down by millimeters over a couple turns. It is intensely frustrating.

This depends on play style. I'd rather have my character spend a couple of turns able to fight back, even with reduced tactical options, and be part of the game, then get hit with a 20d6 EB and reduced to -40 STUN in the first phase of combat. And your Suffocate power suggestion costs more than enough to have a 20d6 EB instead.

No, I have a pretty good idea just how long it would take to defeat a character using only suffocation. The problem comes when there are other options available to the attacker in addition.

The defender also has options.

Ultimately what would do the target in wouldn't be the suffocation, it would be the other guys beating on him when his ability to defend himself is reduced. Combats begin with the Stragler picking a target, and the rest of the team gang-banging him because they know he's not getting a PS-12 if he survives the segment. And now the target has to watch his END costs like a hawk because he not only isn't getting any recoveries to replace END, he's also low on STUN.

Replace "strangle" with an attack of equal AP selected from:

- Suppress Stun
- Drain INT, PRE, STR and EGO
- Mental Illusions (friends are enemies and enemies are friends)
- NND against which the target lacks the defense (which is what we are assuming for strangulation)
- Flash (OCV halved - how frustrating is it to never hit?)
- DEX drain (good luck hitting, again)
- Desolid and an exotic attack that affects the solid world
- a large Self Only force wall plus an exotic attack it is transparent to

I suspect you will find the same AP required for an NND REC Suppress sufficient to wipe out any REC level in the game will fare poorly by comparison. Let's look...a 60 STR, 30 CON brick has REC of 18. Grond has 90 STR and, what, 25 - 30 REC? Let's set the top at 35 REC. 20d6 will average 70 points, or 35 REC. That's 100 base points x 2 for NND = 200 AP. I can have:

- 40d6 Suppress Stun - how many characters have the 140 STUN + Power Defense to withstand that?

- 10d6 Drain INT, PRE, STR and EGO, or 8d6 at range. How many characters don't have at least one reduced (well) below zero? How many Bricks still have an effective attack?

- 40d6 Mental Illusions (friends are enemies and enemies are friends) - you need a total of 120 points Ego + Mental Defense to avoid that +20 effect. Every 5 points short is -1 to your breakout roll. Good luck with that! If it doesn't work on you, I'll try a teammate!

- NND against which the target lacks the defense (which is what we are assuming for strangulation) - 20d6 will probably STUN most targets, if not outright KO them.

- make it a 20d6 mental Blast and I get no range modifiers and IPE to boot!

- Flash (OCV halved - how frustrating is it to never hit?) Let's see...5 per d6, let's have 20d6 (70 segments - almost 6 turns) for the first 100 and spend the rest on additional sense groups.

- 20d6 DEX drain - good luck hitting with your DEX reduced by 23 - that-s 7 or 8 OCV and DCV lost. A second hit should leave you twitching spasmodically on the floor.

- Desolid and an exotic attack that affects the solid world Let's pay 50 for Desolid to cost END only to activate. That leaves 150 points for a 10d6 Stun Suppress that Affects the Solid World.

- a large Self Only force wall plus an exotic attack it is transparent to. Let's make it a 20 PD/20 ED Wall with +1" (102 AP), no range, self only, plus a 5d6 Drain, Ranged, any two characteristics at a time. Or a 10d6 Mental Blast. Or an 8d6 AVLD, Flash Defense. Or, how about a 6d6 AVLD Flash Defense with a Linked 5d6 Sight Flash?

- or just a 40d6 EB (or a 20d6 0 END 1 hex accurate EB).

Note that I think this is a power that should be attainable by a Heroic character (75 + 75 Fantasy Wizard) or a Standard Super. How will they stand up to the attacks above (scaled down for the reduced REC Suppress needed in a heroic game, where a REC of 15 is probably enough to Suppress - so halve each other power).

Victory comes not from being more tactical/experinced/powerful, but which team has more 'stranglers' on the roster if Suffocation is too cheap.

Or from 10 points in Life Support. Actually, much of the problem here is that we double the cost of an Adjustment Power to change it from an AVLD (a +1 1/2 advantage) to an NND (a +1 Advantage). Really, moving from AVLD to NND should be a limitation, not an advantage. We need a "Defenses Chart" that provides for advantages or limitations based on a ranking of defenses and the number of steps you move away from the default.

[AnotherSkip]

If we can't really build the power maybe it should be a Side Effect that affects the target of the base power? I am looking at That as a way to build gravity powers also (side effects: the weight of objects is multiplied by the capacity multible of the Str being used)

Though some people could see this as an advantage "I have hydrokinisis then therfore i can get Drain rec for free?" isn't the point, "I might Kill someone with this power If I am not careful" is the real disad here.
Really suffocation isn't that quick so therefor it isn't that powerful is an Ehhh argument.

[Hugh Neilson]

Really suffocation isn't that quick so therefor it isn't that powerful is an Ehhh argument.


One could, I suppose, buy Suffocation as a 30d6 Drain of END, STUN, REC and BOD all at once, with a huge Gradual Effect limitation (perhaps applicable to all but the REC component, but perhaps not).

If the damage from an Energy Blast is spread across many turns, its cost drops markedly. Why should the damage from suffocation be different?

1d6 Continuous Drain, all of END, STUN, REC and BOD, NND (Need not Breathe) would cost 30 points. Slap Gradual Effect so each 1d6 Drain operates over the course of a turn, and the target loses an average of 7 END, 3.5 STUN, 1.75 REC and 1.75 BOD every turn for every phase I keep applying this Continuous attack. That will take him out a lot faster than "Suffocation - regular rules" and cost a lot less than any suggested suffocation build.

Just as the character with water powers should not get Suffocation for free, the character whose concept mandates such an ability should not be asked to pay markedly more than would be charged for abilities that are of equal or lesser utility.

[The Main Man]

So now it's twice as expensive, and you still have to hope no one has enough REC to avoid it. Or it doesn't work against someone with a stiff neck covering.

1. What do you propose would be this "Suffocation" power's defense?

2. TK is inherently Indirect.

[Vulcan]

Replace "strangle" with an attack of equal AP selected from:

- Suppress Stun
- Drain INT, PRE, STR and EGO
- Mental Illusions (friends are enemies and enemies are friends)
- NND against which the target lacks the defense (which is what we are assuming for strangulation)
- Flash (OCV halved - how frustrating is it to never hit?)
- DEX drain (good luck hitting, again)
- Desolid and an exotic attack that affects the solid world
- a large Self Only force wall plus an exotic attack it is transparent to

I suspect you will find the same AP required for an NND REC Suppress sufficient to wipe out any REC level in the game will fare poorly by comparison. Let's look...a 60 STR, 30 CON brick has REC of 18. Grond has 90 STR and, what, 25 - 30 REC? Let's set the top at 35 REC. 20d6 will average 70 points, or 35 REC. That's 100 base points x 2 for NND = 200 AP. I can have:

- 40d6 Suppress Stun - how many characters have the 140 STUN + Power Defense to withstand that?

- 10d6 Drain INT, PRE, STR and EGO, or 8d6 at range. How many characters don't have at least one reduced (well) below zero? How many Bricks still have an effective attack?

- 40d6 Mental Illusions (friends are enemies and enemies are friends) - you need a total of 120 points Ego + Mental Defense to avoid that +20 effect. Every 5 points short is -1 to your breakout roll. Good luck with that! If it doesn't work on you, I'll try a teammate!

- NND against which the target lacks the defense (which is what we are assuming for strangulation) - 20d6 will probably STUN most targets, if not outright KO them.

And this is the build I would probably use for 'sudden suffocation' myself, in whatever variation I chose to use. Forcing water into the target's lungs, pulling all the air out of the target's lungs, replacing the O2 with CO2 around the target, whatever. Not really 'proper' but this is a game of dramatic simulation, not 'uber-realistic' simulation. :D

- make it a 20d6 mental Blast and I get no range modifiers and IPE to boot!

- Flash (OCV halved - how frustrating is it to never hit?) Let's see...5 per d6, let's have 20d6 (70 segments - almost 6 turns) for the first 100 and spend the rest on additional sense groups.

- 20d6 DEX drain - good luck hitting with your DEX reduced by 23 - that-s 7 or 8 OCV and DCV lost. A second hit should leave you twitching spasmodically on the floor.

- Desolid and an exotic attack that affects the solid world Let's pay 50 for Desolid to cost END only to activate. That leaves 150 points for a 10d6 Stun Suppress that Affects the Solid World.

- a large Self Only force wall plus an exotic attack it is transparent to. Let's make it a 20 PD/20 ED Wall with +1" (102 AP), no range, self only, plus a 5d6 Drain, Ranged, any two characteristics at a time. Or a 10d6 Mental Blast. Or an 8d6 AVLD, Flash Defense. Or, how about a 6d6 AVLD Flash Defense with a Linked 5d6 Sight Flash?

- or just a 40d6 EB (or a 20d6 0 END 1 hex accurate EB).

Note that I think this is a power that should be attainable by a Heroic character (75 + 75 Fantasy Wizard) or a Standard Super. How will they stand up to the attacks above (scaled down for the reduced REC Suppress needed in a heroic game, where a REC of 15 is probably enough to Suppress - so halve each other power).

I won't argue that these options are not more effective than a 'true' Suffocation power, but the alternative is chopping the price of either Supress (which has it's own problems in realtion to other things) or REC (and people will then just buy a lot more, negating the point) to about a quarter of it's current cost to get the total intensity 'Supress REC NND' down to the reasonable cost you want. Or have a Suffocation power that will always be chosen instead of 'Suppress REC.'

Someone around here has a caption that says 'If something is too good for the price, that's a problem, not a good idea!' (Or something along those lines.) I don't want to see Suffocation priced so cheaply that it becomes the obvious choice over Suppress. ("I can Suppress part of his REC, or I can take Suffocation and suppress all of his REC, and make him burn extra END too? Hmmm, let me think..." :idjit:)

Besides which, there is the matter of scaling. Do you price Suffocation for the Superheroic level with it's vastly higher REC levels- which makes it too expensive for Heroic games? Or price it to reflect the REC levels of a Heroic game - and make it the cheap 'gimme' power for Superheroic games?

Or from 10 points in Life Support. Actually, much of the problem here is that we double the cost of an Adjustment Power to change it from an AVLD (a +1 1/2 advantage) to an NND (a +1 Advantage). Really, moving from AVLD to NND should be a limitation, not an advantage. We need a "Defenses Chart" that provides for advantages or limitations based on a ranking of defenses and the number of steps you move away from the default.

There is that, of course. That would help bring the price of the "Suppress REC" build down to a more useable level (which would scale automatically to boot), and then a separate 'Suffocation' is no longer needed.

For that matter, it also makes pretty good sense.

[Vulcan]

1d6 Continuous Drain, all of END, STUN, REC and BOD, NND (Need not Breathe) would cost 30 points. Slap Gradual Effect so each 1d6 Drain operates over the course of a turn, and the target loses an average of 7 END, 3.5 STUN, 1.75 REC and 1.75 BOD every turn for every phase I keep applying this Continuous attack. That will take him out a lot faster than "Suffocation - regular rules" and cost a lot less than any suggested suffocation build.

This is another viable build for suffocation. Sure, it's not 'accurate', but it is more effective and a lot cheaper.

There are alternatives to 'exactly' buying suffocation. But being a stickler for accuracy in a game usually leads to long arguments, not more fun.

[Hugh Neilson]

1. What do you propose would be this "Suffocation" power's defense?

2. TK is inherently Indirect.

1. 10 points life support (environmental LS in some cases - if you breathe water, surounding you in it does no harm).

2. TK, like other indirect powers, do not bypass personal defenses. Living Steel Man is made of metal but still needs to breathe.

And this is the build I would probably use for 'sudden suffocation' myself, in whatever variation I chose to use. Forcing water into the target's lungs, pulling all the air out of the target's lungs, replacing the O2 with CO2 around the target, whatever. Not really 'proper' but this is a game of dramatic simulation, not 'uber-realistic' simulation. :D

We have rules for what happens when someone is deprived of oxygen. Why is it wrong to have a mechanic for implementing those rules? If you want a "sudden suffocation" power, use it. But an Entangle or Force Wall that also cuts off the air supply without sucking the oxygen out of your lungs is also a legitimate power build, and one we can't do at present. Call it "passive suffocation" if you will.

I won't argue that these options are not more effective than a 'true' Suffocation power, but the alternative is chopping the price of either Supress (which has it's own problems in realtion to other things) or REC (and people will then just buy a lot more, negating the point) to about a quarter of it's current cost to get the total intensity 'Supress REC NND' down to the reasonable cost you want. Or have a Suffocation power that will always be chosen instead of 'Suppress REC.'

Someone around here has a caption that says 'If something is too good for the price, that's a problem, not a good idea!' (Or something along those lines.) I don't want to see Suffocation priced so cheaply that it becomes the obvious choice over Suppress. ("I can Suppress part of his REC, or I can take Suffocation and suppress all of his REC, and make him burn extra END too? Hmmm, let me think..." :idjit:)

'If something is too good for the price, that's a problem, not a good idea!' So if an Energy Blast at the same price as a Suffocation Power is clearly superior, that's a problem, not a good idea. And that's the status quo. We have lots of "build it two way" abilities where one choice is clearly superior. For example:

- Mental Blast vs EB, AVLD, No range modifier, IPE
- Buying a 10 slot attack multipower instead of 10 separate attacks with the Lockout limitation
- buying Armor instead of Force Field, 0 END, IPE, Persistent

Besides which, there is the matter of scaling. Do you price Suffocation for the Superheroic level with it's vastly higher REC levels- which makes it too expensive for Heroic games? Or price it to reflect the REC levels of a Heroic game - and make it the cheap 'gimme' power for Superheroic games?

How do we price Desolid, Life Support and Damage Reduction? The scaling issue is not unique to this concept. If anything, I would suggest this is more self-scaling, as higher point characters have a greater incidence of Life Support (neutering the power) and higher END and STUN scores (giving them longer to deal with the problem).

There is that, of course. That would help bring the price of the "Suppress REC" build down to a more useable level (which would scale automatically to boot), and then a separate 'Suffocation' is no longer needed.

For that matter, it also makes pretty good sense.

I'd like to see a Suffocate power that can be written with no less complexity than, say, the current Regeneration construct. Fixing the NND/AVLD dilemma will only fix a small part of this.

This is another viable build for suffocation. Sure, it's not 'accurate', but it is more effective and a lot cheaper.

'If something is too good for the price, that's a problem, not a good idea!'

If I can buy something vastly more effective than suffocation for the same price or markedly lower, that's a problem, not a solution.

There are alternatives to 'exactly' buying suffocation. But being a stickler for accuracy in a game usually leads to long arguments, not more fun.

Whereas not having a Suffocate power has not lead to any arguments on these Boards, right? ;) Let the player who wants to suffocate his opponents have a mechanic allowing him to do so. Hero is supposed to be flexible - let's provide this flexibility at a cost commensurate with its utility.

[The Main Man]

TK, like other indirect powers, do not bypass personal defenses. Living Steel Man is made of metal but still needs to breathe.

TK is also STR-Based - If Living Steel Man is not strong enough to resist Mind-Strong Guy's TK grab then it's back to choking.

[Vulcan]

We have rules for what happens when someone is deprived of oxygen. Why is it wrong to have a mechanic for implementing those rules? If you want a "sudden suffocation" power, use it. But an Entangle or Force Wall that also cuts off the air supply without sucking the oxygen out of your lungs is also a legitimate power build, and one we can't do at present. Call it "passive suffocation" if you will.

How many times has your character been in that situation? Not many, I bet. But it was pretty frustrating while it was going on, I'm sure.

Now have it happen at least once a combat because the power is commonly available and cheap.

Game ain't so much fun anymore, is it?

'If something is too good for the price, that's a problem, not a good idea!' So if an Energy Blast at the same price as a Suffocation Power is clearly superior, that's a problem, not a good idea. And that's the status quo. We have lots of "build it two way" abilities where one choice is clearly superior. For example:

- Mental Blast vs EB, AVLD, No range modifier, IPE

This is a problem, and I'm not the only one to have noted it in these threads. 6E should fix it one way (make EGO Attack more expensive), or the other (make AVLD, IPE and Line of Sight cheaper), or a little of both.

- Buying a 10 slot attack multipower instead of 10 separate attacks with the Lockout limitation

Got me on that one.

- buying Armor instead of Force Field, 0 END, IPE, Persistent

Another problem for 6E to fix that has been noted in these threads.

I don't want to see these problems fixed just to see a new one pop up in the form of a 'too cheap' suffocation power.

I'd like to see a Suffocate power that can be written with no less complexity than, say, the current Regeneration construct. Fixing the NND/AVLD dilemma will only fix a small part of this.

Or we could just note under REC that a character with a 0 REC is considered to be suffocating... That would be the simplest fix for the problem and has the benefit of being accurate to boot. It would also put some teeth into the (right now) pretty ineffective REC Drain/Suppress powers.

If I can buy something vastly more effective than suffocation for the same price or markedly lower, that's a problem, not a solution.

[Judge Dread] I knew you were going to say that. [/Judge Dread]

Suffocation at it's core is the ability to remove a character's aboility to recover END and STUN. There is a mechainic for this in HEROS. It is called Supress. So if a Suffocation power is cheaper than it is to totally Supress REC, it is too cheap. It should be priced the same (or at least similarly) because it does the SAME THING!

Lots of heavily-limited high-AP Adjustment powers are not quick or combat effective (and a Supress that works on REC is pretty limited). But they do tend to be pretty unavoidale for the typical character build.

Whereas not having a Suffocate power has not lead to any arguments on these Boards, right? ;) Let the player who wants to suffocate his opponents have a mechanic allowing him to do so. Hero is supposed to be flexible - let's provide this flexibility at a cost commensurate with its utility.

But there already is a mechanic for it. Do we need a second power to do the exact same thing? I thought the general idea was to simplify things?

Edit: I found the correct quote. SteveZilla uses it as a caption (or footer, or whatever it's called).

"If it looks too good for what you pay, thats a problem, not a success." -tesuji

[Hugh Neilson]

How many times has your character been in that situation? Not many, I bet. But it was pretty frustrating while it was going on, I'm sure.

Now have it happen at least once a combat because the power is commonly available and cheap.

Game ain't so much fun anymore, is it?

You are equating "available" with "too cheap" and "possible to purchase" with "everyone buys it". How many times has your character:

- been faced with an opponent whose DCV makes him impossible to hit?
- been Mind Controlled or Mental Illusion'ed out of your control?
- had an opponent he could not damage (defenses; desolid)
- faced an opponent he could not catch (too much movement)
- had his DEX or STR (or any other attribute) drained to the point he is useless?
- been one shot KO'd and out of the fight for a turn or more?

Are you going to tell me these are somehow less frustrating to deal with?

I don't want to see these problems fixed just to see a new one pop up in the form of a 'too cheap' suffocation power.

I want to see existing problems fixed. One of those problems is the inability to purchase the ability to suffocate at a reasonable price (NOT "too cheap" but also not "too expensive") with a reasonably straightforward mechanic.

Or we could just note under REC that a character with a 0 REC is considered to be suffocating... That would be the simplest fix for the problem and has the benefit of being accurate to boot. It would also put some teeth into the (right now) pretty ineffective REC Drain/Suppress powers.

Why should REC 0 = cannot breathe. And why would this apply to characters that do not require oxygen?

But there already is a mechanic for it. Do we need a second power to do the exact same thing? I thought the general idea was to simplify things?

No, we need a mechanic that eliminates the ability to recover only while the suffocation condition exists, AND results in the trickling loss of END and STUN, and ultimately BOD, while suffocating.

"If it looks too good for what you pay, thats a problem, not a success." -tesuji

OK - compared to the cost of the Suffocation power you suggest, EVERYTHING looks too good by comparison. That's a problem, not a success. Let's fix the problem in 6e.

[Vulcan]

You are equating "available" with "too cheap" and "possible to purchase" with "everyone buys it".

No, I'm saying that if 'Suffocation' is made into a specific power, then it should have a similar cost to 'Suppress REC,' which is ultimately what it does. If it is too cheap, then everyone will want it, and most character concepts can support some version of it.

Web-slinger guy: I web up your face so you can't breath.
Anyone with martial arts: I punch the solar plexus, paralyzing your diaphragm (yeah, I likely misspelled it)
Fire Guy: I ring you with intense fire which consumes all the O2 around you
Ice Guy: I freeze your head in an ice cube
Force Field Guy: I create a FF bubble in your trachea
Magic Guy: You now breathe water, not air
BIG Guy: I close my fist around your face
Any Brick (or a snakey character): I grab you and constrict you so you can't breathe
Earth/Tunneling Guy: I bury you

I could keep going, but you see the point. I hope.

How many times has your character:

- been faced with an opponent whose DCV makes him impossible to hit?
- been Mind Controlled or Mental Illusion'ed out of your control?
- had an opponent he could not damage (defenses; desolid)
- faced an opponent he could not catch (too much movement)
- had his DEX or STR (or any other attribute) drained to the point he is useless?
- been one shot KO'd and out of the fight for a turn or more?

These things happen occasionally. Maybe (just maybe) once a fight for any one of them, definitely not once a fight for each.

If there is a CHEAP Suffocation power (and by CHEAP I mean 'costs signifigantly less than an appropriate Supress REC), then Suffocation attacks become very common. Then every combat will feature at least one person on the other side with the power. And that's far too common for something so... annoying.

Are you going to tell me these are somehow less frustrating to deal with?

In the small quantities they typically manifest in, yes, they are less annoying than dealing with Suffocation in every fight because it's too cheap so everyone has a version of it.

I want to see existing problems fixed. One of those problems is the inability to purchase the ability to suffocate at a reasonable price (NOT "too cheap" but also not "too expensive") with a reasonably straightforward mechanic.

Supress REC. How many times must I repeat, Suppress REC. That is what it does. And before you break out the 'but it doesn't make the target spend 1 END per phase' I'll reply with SO WHAT? He's gonna blow MUCH MORE THAN THAT trying to stop the suffocation effect. And once he's blown all his END and STUN trying, well, there is this rule from p.274 of the 5E book:

"A character in this state of unconsciousness" (referring to -10 or below) "can be killed automatically as a Full Phase Action by any charcter with the means to do so (a Killing Attack or other powerful attack) who makes a sucessful Attack Roll against the unconscious character."

Which neatly ties up how you finish him off. Make it a Triggered attack, if you wish. But pay for it, please; don't assume you get it because you have a 'Suffocation' power.

Why should REC 0 = cannot breathe. I don't know, prehaps because they're not recovering END like a suffocating character isn't?

And why would this apply to characters that do not require oxygen?

Good question. Maybe they're drawing on something else to recover END/STUN; perhaps with a 0 REC they are unable to access that something.

Of course, a character bought with no REC might need some sort of life support to explain it... Or it could be a minor advantage for 'Takes No STUN' on a character with all his powers bought to 0 END...

At any rate, it makes more sense to me to come up with rules for 0 REC working that way than it does for a (say) 60 AP Suffocation power to affect my high-REC brick in the same way as a 100+ AP Supress REC.

If it's too cheap, it's a problem. And there are much more point-efficient ways to do something similar (sure, it's not exact) for us to have wasted this much time arguing about it.

No, we need a mechanic that eliminates the ability to recover only while the suffocation condition exists, AND results in the trickling loss of END and STUN, and ultimately BOD, while suffocating.

<sigh> You just don't get it. All right, I'm done trying to convince you. I've said my piece, hopefully Steve gets my point. Since, in the end, he's the only one I have to convince.

[Hugh Neilson]

No, I'm saying that if 'Suffocation' is made into a specific power, then it should have a similar cost to 'Suppress REC,' which is ultimately what it does. If it is too cheap, then everyone will want it, and most character concepts can support some version of it.

Web-slinger guy: I web up your face so you can't breath.
Anyone with martial arts: I punch the solar plexus, paralyzing your diaphragm (yeah, I likely misspelled it)
Fire Guy: I ring you with intense fire which consumes all the O2 around you
Ice Guy: I freeze your head in an ice cube
Force Field Guy: I create a FF bubble in your trachea
Magic Guy: You now breathe water, not air
BIG Guy: I close my fist around your face
Any Brick (or a snakey character): I grab you and constrict you so you can't breathe
Earth/Tunneling Guy: I bury you

I could keep going, but you see the point. I hope.

The fact that so many concepts could support such a power seems to indicate it should be possible for characters to have such a power without resorting to 3+line compound power descriptions coated liberally in limitations and advantages.

You see that point. I hope.

I also note that most of these have a ready reversal condition:

Web-slinger guy: I web up your face so you can't breath. Break the Entangle
Anyone with martial arts: I punch the solar plexus, paralyzing your diaphragm (yeah, I likely misspelled it) This one seems like a stretch - I'd require some fixed duration
Fire Guy: I ring you with intense fire which consumes all the O2 around you Looks like you have to keep doing that to keep oxygen from rushing back in - and if you use up all the oxygen, doesn't your fire go out?
Ice Guy: I freeze your head in an ice cubebreak the ice cube
Force Field Guy: I create a FF bubble in your trachea not without a lot of Indirect you don't - but "around the target's head" seems common enough. Solution: break the force field.
Magic Guy: You now breathe water, not air that sounds like a costly Transform - but he could surround my head in water - break the entangle/force wall/what have you
BIG Guy: I close my fist around your face another stretch - but breaking the grab is the solution. If you can't break Big Guy's grab, you will be out of the fight anyway
Any Brick (or a snakey character): I grab you and constrict you so you can't breatheagain, breaking out
Earth/Tunneling Guy: I bury you unbury yourself (sounds like 'break the entangle' again)

As I see these, they tend to be variations on three powers:

- Force wall - solution is to break it
- entangle - solution is to break it
- change environment - solution is to not allow it purchased Continuous

These things happen occasionally. Maybe (just maybe) once a fight for any one of them, definitely not once a fight for each.

If there is a CHEAP Suffocation power (and by CHEAP I mean 'costs signifigantly less than an appropriate Supress REC), then Suffocation attacks become very common. Then every combat will feature at least one person on the other side with the power. And that's far too common for something so... annoying.

Why aren't the other items so universal? They are all easy to buy, and justifiable by any number of characters. Why would suffocation be universal when these other abilities are not? Why would players abuse this power more than many other constructs that can generate considerable power?

Supress REC. How many times must I repeat, Suppress REC. That is what it does. And before you break out the 'but it doesn't make the target spend 1 END per phase' I'll reply with SO WHAT? He's gonna blow MUCH MORE THAN THAT trying to stop the suffocation effect. And once he's blown all his END and STUN trying, well, there is this rule from p.274 of the 5E book:

"A character in this state of unconsciousness" (referring to -10 or below) "can be killed automatically as a Full Phase Action by any charcter with the means to do so (a Killing Attack or other powerful attack) who makes a sucessful Attack Roll against the unconscious character."

Suppress REC is not Suffocation. Simple as that. If I want Rec Suppressing Energy Bracers, Suppress REC. I don't. I want a power that invokes the environmental effect of rendering the target unable to breathe. With all the aspects of those environmental effects and no other effects. It should be practical to do so in "The Ultimate Toolbox".

I don't know, prehaps because they're not recovering END like a suffocating character isn't?

A character at -35 STUN isn't recovering either - should he suffocate?
At any rate, it makes more sense to me to come up with rules for 0 REC working that way than it does for a (say) 60 AP Suffocation power to affect my high-REC brick in the same way as a 100+ AP Supress REC.

That 100+ AP Suppress REC is not normally avoidable by investing 10 points (or less) in Life Support.

If it's too cheap, it's a problem. And there are much more point-efficient ways to do something similar (sure, it's not exact) for us to have wasted this much time arguing about it.

If it's too expensive, that's also a problem. And the Ultimate Toolkit should not cop out with "you can do something similar". It should provide the tools to build any character you can imagine - and suffocation is not far out there in terms of character abilities.

<sigh> You just don't get it. All right, I'm done trying to convince you. I've said my piece, hopefully Steve gets my point. Since, in the end, he's the only one I have to convince.

I suspect Steve has long since given up on any illusions he may have held that he could please everyone.

[SteveZilla]

I also note that most of these have a ready reversal condition:

Web-slinger guy: I web up your face so you can't breath. Break the Entangle
Anyone with martial arts: I punch the solar plexus, paralyzing your diaphragm. This one seems like a stretch - I'd require some fixed duration
Fire Guy: I ring you with intense fire which consumes all the O2 around you Looks like you have to keep doing that to keep oxygen from rushing back in - and if you use up all the oxygen, doesn't your fire go out?
Ice Guy: I freeze your head in an ice cube. break the ice cube
Force Field Guy: I create a FF bubble in your trachea. not without a lot of Indirect you don't - but "around the target's head" seems common enough. Solution: break the force field.
Magic Guy: You now breathe water, not air. that sounds like a costly Transform - but he could surround my head in water - break the entangle/force wall/what have you
BIG Guy: I close my fist around your face. another stretch - but breaking the grab is the solution. If you can't break Big Guy's grab, you will be out of the fight anyway
Any Brick (or a snakey character): I grab you and constrict you so you can't breathe. again, breaking out
Earth/Tunneling Guy: I bury you. unbury yourself (sounds like 'break the entangle' again)

As I see these, they tend to be variations on three powers:

- Force wall - solution is to break it
- entangle - solution is to break it
- change environment - solution is to not allow it purchased Continuous


This is pretty much why I thought it (the suffocation 'Power') would be best modeled as an Adder (possibly with a cost that varies depending upon the campaign's chosen power level).

And the Change Environment part? It would still be a constant power (fire guy doesn't need to use an Attack Action each Phase to maintain the 'Ring of Fire' IMO). BUT, having said that, I think this would be a case where it should be possible to attack the Power directly as opposed to the current rules (IIRC) where the Power cannot be attacked, only the originator of the power. IIRC, the current rules say that I can't Dispell Force Wall on the FW -- I'd have to aim at the person/object generating the FW.


If it's too expensive, that's also a problem. And the Ultimate Toolkit should not cop out with "you can do something similar". It should provide the tools to build any character you can imagine - and suffocation is not far out there in terms of character abilities.

I agree with these points, with provisions. I may have not used the quote in my signature, but I am reminded of the quote (remembered poorly) "balanced play does not happen because the points match up -- balanced play shows that the matching points are right." I.e., even if the cost of two abilities are the same they can still be widely different in balance. So what we need is playtesting! :D And I want The Ultimate Toolkit to be a "Swiss Army Knife" of rules -- so long as it doesn't become an unusable Swiss Army Knife because it has umpteen million options.

Good Hero System:
29752

Bad Hero System:
29753

I suspect Steve has long since given up on any illusions he may have held that he could please everyone.

And very likely he has come to the conclusion that "you can please some of the people all the time, or all the people some of the time" is wrong on both ends.

"You can please some of the people only some of the time, and half of those who do get pleased will still complain about the implimentation." is likely a more accurate phrase describing the average consumer IMO.

[Hugh Neilson]

This is pretty much why I thought it (the suffocation 'Power') would be best modeled as an Adder (possibly with a cost that varies depending upon the campaign's chosen power level).

I think this opens up a much broader question - should some abilities have a cost that varies with the power level of the campaign? The value of many fixed cost powers certainly varies with the power level of the campaign. Damage Reduction, Desolid, Invisibility and Shape Shift all have fixed costs for fixed effects. Most or all could be modeled with other abilities which would scale in relation to the game's power level. Should the costs of such powers be changed from "fixed cost" to "varies with game power level"? If so, how should they vary? Should it be the starting points that determines the cost? If the characters earn enough xp to be in a higher category, should the cost of these powers go up to match that higher category? Is it only points, or also type of game (heroic vs superheroic; genre; setting) which should vary the cost?

We have this to some extent already in Limited Powers and Vulnerabilities/Susceptibilities (how common will this be in this game is a question that must be answered to set values). Should this be extended to more abilities? Variable cost abilities would be a substantial change to the system. Is it a desirable change, or does it reduce the utility of the rule system too much for the benefits attained?

[Talon]

I think this opens up a much broader question - should some abilities have a cost that varies with the power level of the campaign? The value of many fixed cost powers certainly varies with the power level of the campaign. Damage Reduction, Desolid, Invisibility and Shape Shift all have fixed costs for fixed effects. Most or all could be modeled with other abilities which would scale in relation to the game's power level. Should the costs of such powers be changed from "fixed cost" to "varies with game power level"? If so, how should they vary? Should it be the starting points that determines the cost? If the characters earn enough xp to be in a higher category, should the cost of these powers go up to match that higher category? Is it only points, or also type of game (heroic vs superheroic; genre; setting) which should vary the cost?

I think it's a desirable change -- many people have mentioned issues with powers like Desolidification and Invisibility in a high-powered game.

The first idea that comes to my mind is to base it on Absolute Effects; Invisibility, for example, can be expressed as enough Images (or CE, or whatever) to reduce the campaign's best PER roll below 3-. Desol could be linked to enough defenses to be invulnerable, although this is a less perfect connection. This gives you a power which gets more or less expensive as the campaign power levels goes up and down.

Then you have powers like Life Support (does not sleep), which does not really link to other powers. Does this stay the same in all games?

I suspect that unless someone comes up with a really good idea for doing this, Steve is unlikely to have the time to address it.

[The Main Man]

I'm personally not so hot about power cost scaling.

HERO should primarily focus on "Heroic" campaigns to live up to its namesake and then it should easily and hopefully linearly scale upwards for "Super" Heroic gaming.

Intuitive?

[Wolfgar]

I'm probably waaay too late for the party on this one, but here's my opinion.


Q: Should we change the term “Power”?



"Power" is really just as good as anything else, and is a perfectly generic term.


Q: Should we consider renaming some of the Powers?

Steve’s Thoughts: Arguably some of the Powers still have names that are a bit too “comic book-y,” that suggest certain special effects, or that use strained language. Here are some examples that occur to me:

Current Name —> Possible Change
Armor —> Defense, Passive
Desolidification —> Intangibiliity
Ego Attack —> Mental Attack
Energy Blast —> Normal Attack, Ranged (or possibly “Blast”)
Entangle —> Restrain
Force Field —> Defense, Active
Force Wall —> Wall (or maybe Barrier)
HA —> Normal Attack, HTH


I approve of these.


And perhaps all the continuing-effect Mental Powers should have more “generic” names, too, but I think that can slide given that they are, in fact, Mental/Psionic 99% of the time. ;)



Honestly, though — I’m not sure making these changes gains us much of anything. They’re definitely more generic and less superhero-y, but also kind of flavorless. I’m not sure it’s worth upsetting the apple cart. The only one I’m strongly sold on so far is Ego Attack —> Mental Attack.


I definitely renaming Entangle, just because the name isn't really evocative of what it's used for. The name says Spiderman. It doesn't sound like a Grab, or a shell of ice, or a telepathic mind freeze, or handcuffs, all of which Entangle is normally used for. Restraint would be much easier for learning the game. Please, use Restrain or similar.


Q: Should we consider adding some new Powers?

Steve’s Thoughts: There’s certainly no shortage of candidates for new Powers that have been suggested over the years. In my HEROglyphs columns I described the following:

Probability Alteration (DH #4, allows character to alter probabilities affecting him or others)


I'd avoid this. Probability Manipulation could probably already be handled by Luck or Overall Levels or similar. Probability Manipulation can lead to extremely overpowered abilities in other games, I'd hate to see HERO go that route.


Object Creation DH #7, allows creation of simple objects)


I feel transform already does this fairly well.


Activate (DH #14, allows character to activate devices/machines at range)


I'd think TK would handle this, but if you say so I'd believe it.


Automaton Powers (DH #44, Automaton Powers for all character types)


I'd like this. I don't like Automaton-only powers.


—an Invulnerability power


I would very much appreciate this. Currently trying to make someone immune to a given effect is a total pain in the ass, and a major weakness in the system as far as I'm concerned.


Q: Should we collapse the Powers down to a very small number and “create” the other effects with Advantages and Limitations?


I think a couple of powers could stand to be combined.

[BobGreenwade]

There have been a couple of questions raised about inducing sleep. I'd like to expand this, or at least have the groundwork available, for inducing things like coughing, sneezing, hiccuping, vomiting, and so forth. These can be symptoms of a disease or stand-alone responses.

It's not entirely unreasonable to make this some form of Mind Control Based On CON, though just what level of effect would be needed to make someone cough is something that needs to be addressed.

Alternately, this could be a completely new and separate power, Induce, with its own set of effects, with a structure like Mind Control except that its effects are compared against CON, severity is measured similar to the Emotion Control tables, and the effect is defended by Power Defense (and in most other ways it's treated as an Adjustment Power).

My inclination would be to just stick a couple of paragraphs about the idea under Mind Control, and perhaps use this as an example of how the GM can build new Powers in the Toolkitting chapter (currently done with Slipperiness and Venom, on 5ER pages 565-566).

[Netzilla]

There have been a couple of questions raised about inducing sleep. I'd like to expand this, or at least have the groundwork available, for inducing things like coughing, sneezing, hiccuping, vomiting, and so forth. These can be symptoms of a disease or stand-alone responses.

It's not entirely unreasonable to make this some form of Mind Control Based On CON, though just what level of effect would be needed to make someone cough is something that needs to be addressed.

Alternately, this could be a completely new and separate power, Induce, with its own set of effects, with a structure like Mind Control except that its effects are compared against CON, severity is measured similar to the Emotion Control tables, and the effect is defended by Power Defense (and in most other ways it's treated as an Adjustment Power).

My inclination would be to just stick a couple of paragraphs about the idea under Mind Control, and perhaps use this as an example of how the GM can build new Powers in the Toolkitting chapter (currently done with Slipperiness and Venom, on 5ER pages 565-566).

Hmmm. My thinking on this tends to be along the lines of: What is the end result of uncontrolled hiccupping/coughing/itching/vomiting/etc? I view these as separate from Sleep due to the fact that Sleep pretty much keeps you from doing anything else for longer periods. With several of these (hiccuping, coughing & vomitiing definately) they can be very tiring and keep you from catching your breath (reduced END & REC) plus they are distracting (DEX Roll & CV penalties). This seems similar to a single-target Change Environment combined with a Suppress/Drain. So, any power that could induce such effects should be priced comprably and produce similar mechanical effects.

If stat suppression & single targetting could be made part of CE, then you probably only need that power (and probably need to rename it to Change Condition or somesuch).

Sleep, in my mind, is a far more extreme effect. At minimum, you're completely removing a target from combat for a given length of time. At worse, you've made it trivially easy for allies to perform max damage called shots on the target. That needs to be a high-cost (or easily defeated) Stopsign attack.

[Vulcan]

Sleep, in my mind, is a far more extreme effect. At minimum, you're completely removing a target from combat for a given length of time. At worse, you've made it trivially easy for allies to perform max damage called shots on the target. That needs to be a high-cost (or easily defeated) Stopsign attack.

Max damage called shot? Why bother? The rules say you can kill a helpless foe with an attack action, no roll (conditonal to GM's approval and CvK, of course;)).

[Lucius]

When I learned that there was going to be a new edition of the Hero System, I was excited. I wanted to participate in the discussion of what the overhauled system should be like. I DID participate to some degree, but the sheer volume of commentary was so overwhelming I was never “caught up” with more than a fraction of the ongoing debates.

And then my life exploded.

All year long it seems, it’s been one thing happening after another. Now, don’t get me wrong, mostly it’s been GOOD stuff. But it’s been a LOT of STUFF. Then came a couple of months where the stuff happening was more bad than good….but one result of that was making me reflect on what’s really important to me. And Hero System is on the list. Not important like health and home are important, but I’ve been playing this game basically all my adult life, off and on, and expect to play it, off and on, until accident, illness, violence, or sheer time, inflict twice my BOD score in damage. I have no hope now of ever “catching up” on the discussion, but I’d rather be hanged for a munchkin than fail to say what needs to be said about the new edition.

The Normal Attack / Killing Attack inequity needs to be fixed.

This has been present since the first edition of Champions, and frankly, if it’s not fixed now, I don’t understand what the purpose of putting out a new edition is. People who’ve played the game since it came out complain about it, and people who just picked up the most recent edition come online and ask “What’s the deal?” It’s the most glaring flaw in the system as it stands.

I realize I’m beating a dead horse, but one more time, the problem is twofold:

1)Killing Attacks are Attacks Vs. a Limited Defense, and the Defense costs 50% more than basic defense – despite the fact that Killing Attack is basically free. This violates both the principle that defenses should cost less than attacks and also the principle of getting what you pay for, because the difference in effectiveness between Normal and Killing is not reflected in their cost.
2)Killing Attacks enjoy an advantageous dice rolling mechanic. The problem is NOT as so often stated the STUN lotto; the STUN lotto exacerbates and at the same time obscures the fundamental problem that a Killing Attack rolls one third as many dice as an equivalent Normal Attack. Unless the way defenses work is going to change – which is possible but would be a radical change – rolling fewer dice is always going to be better, because there is no penalty for rolling very low damage but there’s a big reward for rolling very high. In fact, the Set Effect number should probably be changed from 3 to 4 for the same reasons, or else Set Effect should be a – ¼ Limitation.





Over the years I’ve changed my mind repeatedly on HOW the problem should be fixed. This is my current best suggestion. I credit Steve Long and Amadan na Briona for some of the basic ideas in this proposal.

First, define Killing Attacks (possibly renamed) as the default. Define Normal Attacks (possibly renamed) as a Limited form of the basic attack power. This is basically what is already done with Hand to Hand Normal Attacks, which have a – ½ Limit compared to Hand to Hand Killing Attacks. Just extend that to all Normal Attacks.

Now, I am not sure that – ½ is enough of a limitation; also, it should be split into two limitations, one reflecting that it can be blocked by a cheaper defense and one reflecting that it rolls more dice and will give more average, predictable results.

It might also cut down on repetition and simplify the text if the distinction between “Ranged” and “Adds STR” is made a “toggle” like the distinction between Physical and Energy is now.

As a bonus, this also addresses part of the argument regarding the cost of STR, in that it will be more obvious that 10 pts of STR does not actually get you 10 pts worth of damage, + benefits. It’s not possible to talk about any serious changes in isolation; the whole system works together.

Which brings us to defenses. Since there’s a push to cut down the number of characteristics, eliminate PD and ED. Give everyone (and everything) 1 pt of innate Defense, which costs 3 pts per pt and protects against all ordinary damage (i.e. most damaging effects or attacks that aren’t Drains, Flashes, etc.) I think it’s fair to say that most physical objects and especially living beings have at least some limited ability to resist being damaged by the casual effects of their environment, and Defense can be an everycharacter power just like Running is. Of course, if you want a really fragile character you can buy it down like you can buy down Running. “Non-Resistant Defense” (or whatever name is applied) that only works against limited “Normal” attacks is a Limitation. Defense that works against only physical or energy attacks (however those are defined for a particular campaign) are also limited, with the limitation being set according to the campaign. Many times “PD” is more often used than “ED” and it never made sense that they cost the same.



There. I said what I needed to say about Killing Attacks – or rather, about the complex web of factors in the game (attacks, defenses, STR, etc) of which Killing Attack is a part.

There are other possible solutions – such as eliminating the distinction entirely and just making “Killing Attacks” bigger and nastier Normal Attacks. My proposal may not be ideal, I don’t know. But I do know that something must be done about the issue.

Lucius Alexander

and a Normal Palindromedary

[The Main Man]

When I learned that there was going to be a new edition of the Hero System, I was excited. I wanted to participate in the discussion of what the overhauled system should be like. I DID participate to some degree, but the sheer volume of commentary was so overwhelming I was never “caught up” with more than a fraction of the ongoing debates.

And then my life exploded.

All year long it seems, it’s been one thing happening after another. Now, don’t get me wrong, mostly it’s been GOOD stuff. But it’s been a LOT of STUFF. Then came a couple of months where the stuff happening was more bad than good….but one result of that was making me reflect on what’s really important to me. And Hero System is on the list. Not important like health and home are important, but I’ve been playing this game basically all my adult life, off and on, and expect to play it, off and on, until accident, illness, violence, or sheer time, inflict twice my BOD score in damage. I have no hope now of ever “catching up” on the discussion, but I’d rather be hanged for a munchkin than fail to say what needs to be said about the new edition.

The Normal Attack / Killing Attack inequity needs to be fixed.

This has been present since the first edition of Champions, and frankly, if it’s not fixed now, I don’t understand what the purpose of putting out a new edition is. People who’ve played the game since it came out complain about it, and people who just picked up the most recent edition come online and ask “What’s the deal?” It’s the most glaring flaw in the system as it stands.

I realize I’m beating a dead horse, but one more time, the problem is twofold:

1)Killing Attacks are Attacks Vs. a Limited Defense, and the Defense costs 50% more than basic defense – despite the fact that Killing Attack is basically free. This violates both the principle that defenses should cost less than attacks and also the principle of getting what you pay for, because the difference in effectiveness between Normal and Killing is not reflected in their cost.
2)Killing Attacks enjoy an advantageous dice rolling mechanic. The problem is NOT as so often stated the STUN lotto; the STUN lotto exacerbates and at the same time obscures the fundamental problem that a Killing Attack rolls one third as many dice as an equivalent Normal Attack. Unless the way defenses work is going to change – which is possible but would be a radical change – rolling fewer dice is always going to be better, because there is no penalty for rolling very low damage but there’s a big reward for rolling very high. In fact, the Set Effect number should probably be changed from 3 to 4 for the same reasons, or else Set Effect should be a – ¼ Limitation.





Over the years I’ve changed my mind repeatedly on HOW the problem should be fixed. This is my current best suggestion. I credit Steve Long and Amadan na Briona for some of the basic ideas in this proposal.

First, define Killing Attacks (possibly renamed) as the default. Define Normal Attacks (possibly renamed) as a Limited form of the basic attack power. This is basically what is already done with Hand to Hand Normal Attacks, which have a – ½ Limit compared to Hand to Hand Killing Attacks. Just extend that to all Normal Attacks.

Now, I am not sure that – ½ is enough of a limitation; also, it should be split into two limitations, one reflecting that it can be blocked by a cheaper defense and one reflecting that it rolls more dice and will give more average, predictable results.

It might also cut down on repetition and simplify the text if the distinction between “Ranged” and “Adds STR” is made a “toggle” like the distinction between Physical and Energy is now.

As a bonus, this also addresses part of the argument regarding the cost of STR, in that it will be more obvious that 10 pts of STR does not actually get you 10 pts worth of damage, + benefits. It’s not possible to talk about any serious changes in isolation; the whole system works together.

Which brings us to defenses. Since there’s a push to cut down the number of characteristics, eliminate PD and ED. Give everyone (and everything) 1 pt of innate Defense, which costs 3 pts per pt and protects against all ordinary damage (i.e. most damaging effects or attacks that aren’t Drains, Flashes, etc.) I think it’s fair to say that most physical objects and especially living beings have at least some limited ability to resist being damaged by the casual effects of their environment, and Defense can be an everycharacter power just like Running is. Of course, if you want a really fragile character you can buy it down like you can buy down Running. “Non-Resistant Defense” (or whatever name is applied) that only works against limited “Normal” attacks is a Limitation. Defense that works against only physical or energy attacks (however those are defined for a particular campaign) are also limited, with the limitation being set according to the campaign. Many times “PD” is more often used than “ED” and it never made sense that they cost the same.



There. I said what I needed to say about Killing Attacks – or rather, about the complex web of factors in the game (attacks, defenses, STR, etc) of which Killing Attack is a part.

There are other possible solutions – such as eliminating the distinction entirely and just making “Killing Attacks” bigger and nastier Normal Attacks. My proposal may not be ideal, I don’t know. But I do know that something must be done about the issue.

Lucius Alexander

and a Normal Palindromedary

Nice to see you back.:)

Here was another suggestion for Killing Damage (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68938&page=6) (scroll down to post #89).

[The Main Man]

Here's another idea for how "killing Damage" could work:

When you roll a die of "Killing Damage" as a Power Advantagem, one point of STUN is subtracted and becomes another point of BODY damage.

Per d6:
1 --> 1 BODY, 0 STUN
2 --> 2 BODY, 1 STUN
3 --> 2 BODY, 2 STUN
4 --> 2 BODY, 3 STUN
5 --> 2 BODY, 4 STUN
6 --> 3 BODY, 5 STUN

So an average "Killing" Die would do 2 BODY, 2.5 STUN.

I propose that it would be unnecessary for there to even be Resistant Defenses in this model because the BODY damage is not special anymore so much as it becomes more abundant.

Let's take an average gun with this scenario, in which we have (normally) a 1.5d6 attack.

It becomes 5d6 Attack with this "Killing damage" proposal, in which it would do 10 BODY, 12.5 STUN to its target on average.

Let's assume that it is attacking a typical Heroic level character, averaged out at 6 PD (since this is a bullet), in which they will take 4 BODY, 6.5 STUN.

Let's say that the same character gets some kevlar, like Level III or so (+6 PD) so he now has 12 PD vs. Bullets and so he now takes 0 BODY, .5 STUN on average.

This is only one sample, yes, but what are some thoughts?

[Hugh Neilson]

When you roll a die of "Killing Damage" as a Power Advantagem, one point of STUN is subtracted and becomes another point of BODY damage.

Per d6:
1 --> 1 BODY, 0 STUN
2 --> 2 BODY, 1 STUN
3 --> 2 BODY, 2 STUN
4 --> 2 BODY, 3 STUN
5 --> 2 BODY, 4 STUN
6 --> 3 BODY, 5 STUN

So an average "Killing" Die would do 2 BODY, 2.5 STUN.
************************************************** ******
Let's take an average gun with this scenario, in which we have (normally) a 1.5d6 attack.

It becomes 5d6 Attack with this "Killing damage" proposal, in which it would do 10 BODY, 12.5 STUN to its target on average.
************************************************** ****
This is only one sample, yes, but what are some thoughts?

My thoughts? Goodbye entangles, force walls and automatons. A 60 AP energy blast with 1 iteration of this advantage (which I assume is free, since 5 DC = 5d6 in your example) averages 24 BOD. A 60 AP force wall can't come near to coping, a 6d6, 6 DEF entangle is shredded, and an automaton with the Defenses to cope is invulnerable to normal attacks.

It also averages 17" (or 13.5", if you're keeping the extra die) of knockback, compared to 5" for a normal attack.

It won't deal as much STUN, but that doesn't matter when BOD bumps up that much - and for high DEF targets, I'll keep a normal attack in my MP.

Or can I take this multiple times? reduce STUN by 3 points per die and average 4 BOD per die so I average 48 BOD per hit :eek: That should take out pretty much anyone and anything.

[PhilFleischmann]

Well he did say it would be a Power Advantage.

So what would the value of that Advantage be, Main Man?

I'm thinking about +3/4, at least. Twice as much BODY, more Knockback, 5/7 of the STUN.

[The Main Man]

Well he did say it would be a Power Advantage.

So what would the value of that Advantage be, Main Man?

I'm thinking about +3/4, at least. Twice as much BODY, more Knockback, 5/7 of the STUN.

Hurm...

It's not quite 2x BODY so much as "+dice worth of BODY" since a 6 does not result in 4 BODY but rather 3 BODY.

Good point on the Knockback though.

And while it does less STUN, death is the ultimate KO.

If it was "+3/4" that would make 1d6 (assuming 5 Base Points) = 8.75 --> 9 CP per die ~ 2d6-1

At Minimum:
2d6-1 --> 0 BODY, 1 STUN - no better than a single die in fact.

1d6 (New Killing) --> 1 BODY, 0 STUN, which is better because if that BODY gets through it will also result in 1 STUN to boot, so this "New Killing" Advantage would be better at minimum.

On Average:
2d6-1 --> 2 BODY, 6 STUN
1d6 (New Killing) --> 2 BODY, 2.5 STUN.

At Maximum:
2d6-1 --> 3 BODY, 11 STUN.
1d6 (New Killing) --> 3 BODY, 5 STUN

Now all of this is based off of 1d6, so let's pump things up to 10d6 (and 17d6+1 vs. 17.5 d6 (since it falls between them in value) for correspondence) and see how it results:

At Minimum:
17d6+1 --> 0 BODY, 18 STUN
17.5d6 --> 0 BODY, 18 STUN
10d6 (New Killing) --> 10 BODY, 0 STUN

On Average:
17d6+1 --> 17 BODY, 60.5 STUN
17.5d6 --> 18 BODY, 61.5 STUN
10d6 (New Killing) --> 20 BODY, 25 STUN

At Maximum:
17d6+1 --> 34 BODY, 103 STUN
17.5d6 --> 35 BODY, 105 STUN
10d6 (New Killing) --> 30 BODY, 50 STUN

It seems that at +3/4, this "New Killing" doesn't make much of a difference.
But let's compare it at +1/2 (vs. 15d6)

At Minimum:
15d6 --> 0 BODY, 15 STUN
10d6 (New Killing) --> 10 BODY, 0 STUN

On Average:
15d6 --> 15 BODY, 52.5 STUN
10d6 (New Killing) --> 20 BODY, 25 STUN

At Maximum:
15d6 --> 30 BODY, 90 STUN
10d6 (New Killing) --> 30 BODY, 50 STUN

It seems that even at +1/2, it is roughly equal to 15d6 with its odds and ends, but I think that the simplest solution may actually be the best:

If you want to build a power that "Kills" then just buy a LOT more d6!

[Hugh Neilson]

It seems that at +3/4, this "New Killing" doesn't make much of a difference.
But let's compare it at +1/2 (vs. 15d6)

At Minimum:
15d6 --> 0 BODY, 15 STUN
10d6 (New Killing) --> 10 BODY, 0 STUN

At Maximum:
15d6 --> 30 BODY, 90 STUN
10d6 (New Killing) --> 30 BODY, 50 STUN

I find Min and Max when using this many dice a useless comparison - there is a 1 in over 60 million chance of rolliing min or max on 10d6, and 1 in over 470 billion for 15d6.

On Average:
15d6 --> 15 BODY, 52.5 STUN
10d6 (New Killing) --> 20 BODY, 25 STUN

This is the more useful comparison. The KA is useless at inflicting STUN, so it will not be used in games where a KO is the more attainable goal. That probably means it goes in a Multipower or is otherwise purchased in a manner that the character can choose between 15d6 Normal or 10d6 Killing.

So what happens?

- a 5d6 10 DEF Entangle (also 75 AP) is shredded by the KA every time.
- a 75 AB force wall has 30 defenses, apportioned between PD and ED. Either the KA rips through it or the wall is highly vulnerable to the other defense.
- an automaton is either indestructible to normal attacks (say 16 - 18 defenses) or torn to shreds by the KA (with 12 - 14 DEF making the normal attack do 1 - 3 BOD on average, the KA does 6 - 8 BOD on average).
- physical objects are either indestructible to normal attacks or tissue paper to KA's.

The KA gets used against all "need to break" targets, and the normal attack is used for everything else. Entangles and Force walls disappear from the game.

[PhilFleischmann]

Hurm...

It's not quite 2x BODY so much as "+dice worth of BODY" since a 6 does not result in 4 BODY but rather 3 BODY.
In every way that matters, it's 2x BODY:

0 1 1 1 1 2 = 1 BODY on Average, 1 BODY most of the time, 1 BODY by Standard Effect.
1 2 2 2 2 3 = 2 BODY on Average, 2 BODY most of the time, 2 BODY by Standard Effect.

As Hugh points out, minimums and maximums really don't mean very much here.

[Kisska]

Hmm I dont like the idea of changing the names of powers even slightly and taking out prebuilt powers with idea you can do it with a limited set of powers just using advantages and disadvantages doesnt sit well with me. Not that my opinon matters just stating it.

[Lord Liaden]

Q: Should we collapse the Powers down to a very small number and “create” the other effects with Advantages and Limitations?

Steve’s Thoughts: As early as the 4th Edition design process it was suggested that the number of Powers be boiled down to four — Attack, Defend, Move, Sense — and that all the different Power effects be created from them with Power Modifiers. I don’t think the idea had any more merit then than it does now, and have no intention of implementing it (unless, as usual, someone were to come up with an utterly brilliant argument in its favor). I think this would make the HERO System even harder to learn and create far more problems than it might solve.

While I tend to agree that going that far might be too extreme if we intend to keep reasonable compatibility with earlier editions, I have given some thought to breaking down the Normal and Killing Damage Powers in a way that would make them more consistent, modular and customizable. Let me explain:

Aside from STR, Normal Damage Attacks embrace Energy Blast and Hand-To-Hand Attack. In Killing Attacks we have HKA and RKA. At this time HA requires a -1/2 Limitation, which is reasonable when comparing it to all the benefits of STR of the same Active Points; but if 6E eliminates Figured Characteristics, that Lim may not be necessary for balance.

HA by definition cannot be used at range -- for a Ranged Normal Damage Attack we're supposed to use Energy Blast. However, Energy Blast doesn't include a mechanic for adding the STR of the wielder to the damage it does. OTOH it's legal, as shown in many published builds, to buy HKA with the Ranged Advantage, pro-rating the STR used for the additional Advantage. This is a significant inconsistency between the Normal and Killing Damage Powers.

When comparing HKA and RKA, I noticed that each of them effectively have two components for each 5-point Damage Class. They both do damage as one component, but HKA adds the ability to increase the damage using STR, while RKA adds a ranged capacity to the attack. Also in published examples, RKA which has No Range, and HKA to which STR adds no damage, are both -1/2 Limitations, which make the two Powers mechanically identical in how they functionand cost the same Real Points. Extending that example, if one were to add a new +1/2 Advantage, Strength Adds To Damage, to a RKA, one would get a Power construct identical in mechanical function and Damage Class to a Ranged HKA of the same Active Points.

Energy Blast also has two of the components mentioned above, Damage + Range. Following the logic of the previous example, if one applied Strength Adds To Damage to Energy Blast, the result would be practically identical to the Ranged HKA or RKA with added STR, with the same Damage Class per comparable Active Points; except that in this case the damage would be Normal rather than Killing.

If HA becomes 5 Active Points per DC without a Limitation in 6E, then one could also add the Ranged Advantage to it to make it match the Advantaged Energy Blast above in every practical way. One could also take a "Strength Doesn't Add To Damage" Limitation on HA, making it identical to an EB with No Range. The resulting Base Cost, Advantages, and Limitations would thus become both more consistent and more flexible across the board for all categories of Normal and Killing Damage. (I hope that was coherent.) :o

Now, the approach I've outlined above would be close enough to how these Powers are handled in earlier editions, that it would be easy for people switching to 6E to understand. However, I wanted to suggest a more radical approach for your consideration: breaking down Damage Class, Range, and STR Adds into discreet elements which can be added to the cost of each d6 of the Power, in a manner similar to the Maneuver Elements in Martial Arts Maneuvers.

For example, each basic Damage Class (either Normal or Killing) could cost 3 Base Points. It would not work at range, and STR would not add to it. To this you could add 2 Character Points per DC for Range, or 2 Points for STR adding damage, or 4 points for both. Adding one of these would raise the Base Cost to 5 points per DC, the same as for the current HKA, RKA, and Energy Blast. Adding two would raise the cost to 7 points per DC, which would be close to but slightly less than a HKA with the Ranged Advantage; but in this case each of those 7 points would be Base Points.

[AnotherSkip]

Perhaps removing all four as separate powers and having two at most might serve us better since (as a part of your summation ) you could build x = y.

[The Main Man]

Not that my opinon matters just stating it.

If your (or any of our) opinion(s) about 6e didn't matter this thread and all the other 6e threads wouldn't exist.

Chin up.

[The Main Man]

I see "Attack" as extreme condensation that would be going too far.

While I still think that Killing damage should become an advantage of some sort and thusly there would only be Energy Blast and Hand-to-Hand Attack, I don't think that the Range/STR Adds split should be removed.

I do still think that Energy Blast should be changed to "Ranged Attack" though.

[schir1964]

I see "Attack" as extreme condensation that would be going too far.

While I still think that Killing damage should become an advantage of some sort and thusly there would only be Energy Blast and Hand-to-Hand Attack, I don't think that the Range/STR Adds split should be removed.

I do still think that Energy Blast should be changed to "Ranged Attack" though.
However, if the system is rebuilt using the Template Model, this is exactly what is needed.

The Toolkit would have all these components broken up in order to allow one to build the proper Template where STR = Attack+Lift+Leap and Energy Blast = Attack+Range and so forth.

So breaking things down into their elemental components is not going too far if using the Template model.

- Christopher Mullins

[Markdoc]

However, if the system is rebuilt using the Template Model, this is exactly what is needed.

The Toolkit would have all these components broken up in order to allow one to build the proper Template where STR = Attack+Lift+Leap and Energy Blast = Attack+Range and so forth.

So breaking things down into their elemental components is not going too far if using the Template model.

- Christopher Mullins

But I'm guessing DoJ wouldn't sell many books, if they went to the template model, which kind of defeats the purpose of a 6th edition. :D

cheers, Mark

[schir1964]

But I'm guessing DoJ wouldn't sell many books, if they went to the template model, which kind of defeats the purpose of a 6th edition. :D

cheers, Mark
Actually, they could sell even more books depending on how it is presented. (8^D)
The Figureds debate is basically two warring philosophies that are at odds with one another.

1) Game System: The system should be a game system that can be played with relatively quick setup for both players and GMs alike. Customization is possible but becomes more problematic the further away from the basic premises and design the game system geared for (Human-centric, Narrow/Single/Common Genre Implementations). The Strength is that current characters and campaigns are less impacted and players are more familiar with having to "learn how the game works" and once having done that, find the system easier and easier to work with. Also, the system has been tested for balance at various levels and will work well within those tested areas it was designed for. The weakness is that there is inconsistency with the application of core mechanics and that Multi-Genre, Non-Humancentric, Non-common campaigns are very difficult to create and run since the system is a game system, not a universal toolkit in it's ideal form.

2) Universal Toolkit: The system should be a universal toolkit that is consistent in application in order to build a game system that will work well with any Genre/Campaign. The Strength is that there is a true separation of Mechanics from SFX and that truly any game system can be built that will work well for the Genre or Campaign someone wants to play. The Weaknesses is that the GM must do more work to build the Game System and must test for the balance levels depending on the Genre(s)/Campaign desired.

These are the two camps.

Which should the Hero System be? I don't know.

Can the Hero System be both? Provisionally...
In a single book, no, but as a Universal Toolkit Book and a Game System Templates book, yes.
The Universal Toolkit would contain all the mechanics needed to create any game system.
The Game System Template book(s) would contain game systems that could be picked up and played relatively quickly and yet still be customizable within its intended design.

Is this what the Hero System should be? Again, I don't know.

- Christopher Mullins

[PhilFleischmann]

An important consideration WRT making Killing an Advantage is the imbalance of Advantage Stacking.

Under the current rules 6 DC of RKA is 2d6 and costs 30 points, and 6 DC of EB is 6d6 and also costs 30 points.

If Killing becomes an Advantage on EB (let's say +2, to turn in from the d6 of Normal damage [pips = STUN, BODY=0, 1, 1, 1, 1, or 2] into Killing damage [pips=BODY, STUN = BODY x STUN multiple]) Then 2d6 Killing EB (the equivalent of the current RKA) is still 30 points. All is well so far.

However...

Under the current rules 6 DC (2d6) of RKA with AoE, AP, Affects Desolid, costs 30 x (1 + 1 + 1/2 + 1/2) = 30 x 3 = 90 points.

If Killing becomes an Advantage on EB (let's say +2 again), the same power would cost 10 (for 2d6 of EB) x (1 + 2 + 1 + 1/2 + 1/2) = 10 x 5 = 50 points.

For this reason, I am opposed to making Killing an Advantage. This problem could be fixed by changing the way Advantages are applied, such as if each one is multiplied separately, or if certain ones are multiplied separately, or something like that. Unfortunately, these alternate methods of applying Advantages are more complicated than the current rules, which in general should probably be avoided.

(Perhaps a better alternative would be to eliminate Advantages that have a similar "stacking problem". The only one that comes to mind off hand is BOECV. Perhaps BOECV should be eliminated and new powers created that would take the place of Entangle BOECV, et al.)

[Vulcan]

Or say that BOECV only provides benefits that are not covered by other advantages (no Invisible Power Effect, no AVLD Mental Defense, no Line of Sight...)

[Lucius]

Perhaps removing all four as separate powers and having two at most might serve us better since (as a part of your summation ) you could build x = y.

We can do even better than that....


Now, the approach I've outlined above would be close enough to how these Powers are handled in earlier editions, that it would be easy for people switching to 6E to understand. However, I wanted to suggest a more radical approach for your consideration: breaking down Damage Class, Range, and STR Adds into discreet elements which can be added to the cost of each d6 of the Power, in a manner similar to the Maneuver Elements in Martial Arts Maneuvers.

For example, each basic Damage Class (either Normal or Killing) could cost 3 Base Points. It would not work at range, and STR would not add to it. To this you could add 2 Character Points per DC for Range, or 2 Points for STR adding damage, or 4 points for both. Adding one of these would raise the Base Cost to 5 points per DC, the same as for the current HKA, RKA, and Energy Blast. Adding two would raise the cost to 7 points per DC, which would be close to but slightly less than a HKA with the Ranged Advantage; but in this case each of those 7 points would be Base Points.

And then you can make the advantageous aspects of Killing into 1 or 2 point elements too. Maybe gain the advantageous die roll (i.e. roll 1d6 BOD for 3 damage classes instead of 3d6 STUN) for 1 pt, and the limited Attack Vs. Limited Defense (only "resistant" defense stops it) for 1 pt. Then we've broken it down to one basic attack power.

Either doing it this way, or following my proposal to make Killing the default and acknowledge "normal" as a Limitation, have the advantage (pardon the expression) of avoiding the "Advantage stacking" problem noted by Mr. Fleischman most recently and by plenty of others as well.


Lucius Alexander

And an Armor Piercing Attack Vs Limited Defense Autofire Killing Palindromedary help I'm burning STUN for END and I'm about to pass ooouu....

[Lucius]

Under the current rules 6 DC of RKA is 2d6 and costs 30 points, and 6 DC of EB is 6d6 and also costs 30 points.

If Killing becomes an Advantage on EB (let's say +2, to turn in from the d6 of Normal damage [pips = STUN, BODY=0, 1, 1, 1, 1, or 2] into Killing damage [pips=BODY, STUN = BODY x STUN multiple]) Then 2d6 Killing EB (the equivalent of the current RKA) is still 30 points. All is well so far.


Uh, actually, now I look close at what you said, no, all is not well.

The PROBLEM is that under current rules, the inferior power costs the same as the superior power. One can correct that by making the superior power an Advantage (runs into Advantage Stacking) or making the inferior one a Limitation (my current preferred solution) or by more exotic suggestions such as using an "addervantage" such as what "Resistant" defenses are de facto (the position I abandoned in favor of ditching the orphan mechanic rather than extending it) or the intriguing and ingenious "Power Element" idea of building up the Base cost as proposed by His Lordship, Liaden. But a proposal that actually preserves the current imbalance isn't a solution, it's just moving the furniture around. Hm, actually as you point out yourself it's worse than that, because it also drags in Advantage Stacking.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary is relieved that Lucius seems to be agreeing with people more than disagreeing lately. Disagreements can be disagreeable, don't you agree?

[Netzilla]

We can do even better than that....



And then you can make the advantageous aspects of Killing into 1 or 2 point elements too. Maybe gain the advantageous die roll (i.e. roll 1d6 BOD for 3 damage classes instead of 3d6 STUN) for 1 pt, and the limited Attack Vs. Limited Defense (only "resistant" defense stops it) for 1 pt. Then we've broken it down to one basic attack power.

Either doing it this way, or following my proposal to make Killing the default and acknowledge "normal" as a Limitation, have the advantage (pardon the expression) of avoiding the "Advantage stacking" problem noted by Mr. Fleischman most recently and by plenty of others as well.


Lucius Alexander

And an Armor Piercing Attack Vs Limited Defense Autofire Killing Palindromedary help I'm burning STUN for END and I'm about to pass ooouu....

Hmmm. This is interesting. I'll have to play around with the numbers sometime soon, but this may balance quite well.

[PhilFleischmann]

Uh, actually, now I look close at what you said, no, all is not well.
Would you at least accept that "all is no worse that it is under the current rules"? That's really all I meant.

[SteveZilla]

And then you can make the advantageous aspects of Killing into 1 or 2 point elements too. Maybe gain the advantageous die roll (i.e. roll 1d6 BOD for 3 damage classes instead of 3d6 STUN) for 1 pt, and the limited Attack Vs. Limited Defense (only "resistant" defense stops it) for 1 pt. Then we've broken it down to one basic attack power.

What about Flash, Drain, Darkness, Dispel, Suppress, Entangle, TK, Transform, Ego Attack, Mind Control, Mental Illusions... ;)

[Lucius]

Would you at least accept that "all is no worse that it is under the current rules"? That's really all I meant.

Hm, yes, except that, as you pointed out yourself, Advantage stacking is an issue. But yes, I think I agree that we didn't really disagree.

Lucius Alexander

Stacking palindromedaries

[Doc Democracy]

Hmm. So are we saying that we might have an additional type of modifier for powers - base cost adders and subtractors?

Attack power - provides damage 3pts per D6 - no range, no STR modification, normal damage.

Base cost adders:
+2 add range or STR modification
+5 add Killing modification
+3 based on ECV
(all figures for example purposes only - not intended to reflect any balance considerations! :) )
Et cetera, et cetera??

Each basic power like Attack, Defence and Movement could be described like this with a few pre-built examples for ease of use.

Obviously these would be supplemented by the rest of the non-basic powers. This might be nice for us advanced bods - and might be nice to see things thought through to this level. I'm not sure it would make a great selling book - but as an e-advanced version of the main book where people could lodge pre-builds (like Hero Designer lodges characters etc).

I'm attracted by this and this in itself might induce me to purchase 6th edition simply for the ability to break down and build up the game as and where I want...

Possibly even for a deluxe version of the game where the additional stuff is folded into the rules and comes with a special version of Hero Designer. Would be well worth the extra cash.


Doc

[Netzilla]

<Originally posted over in Characteristics Issues>

Yeah, let's buy TK -30 (cost -45) and apply all sorts of advantages to it. ;)

I'm with the suggestion of buying TK up from a low value (e.g. -30) with a cost of 1 rather than 1.5.

It has been suggested that Ranged becomes an adder: Basic damage is 5 points per DC, and "Ranged" and "can add STR" becomes adders. If Ranged is a 10-point adder, then TK can be Ranged STR bought up from -10, i.e. 5 points gets you TK STR -5 (12½ kg)

- Klaus

You know, I generally liked the idea of making Range a separate adder on Attack powers the first time it came around. This discussion of low-STR TK only re-enforces that.

I think, were I the one writing 6E, I'd seriously consider making all powers 0-range by default. Then make Ranged a general Base Cost Adder (i.e. applied before Advantages). I also think that Range should be fixed independent of Active Cost. I'm thinking something like:

Range Based on STR: +1 to Base Cost
Fixed Range 100 hexes: +1 to Base Cost
x2 Range: +1 to Base Cost

So, if you wanted an attack that worked out to 1 km (500 hexes), you'd need to add (100, 200, 400, 800) +4 to the Base Cost. If damage is based on 3 points per DC, that attack would cost 7 points per DC once Ranged is added. A typical 5pts per DC Energy Blast would have a range of 100 hexes (200 meters, ~650 feet; a little over 2 football fields).

If we were to combine this with other modifiers (like STR adds damage and Killing Attack) being Base Cost Adders, we could gain flexibility.

Exact values of these adders would, of course, need to be play-tested and adjusted, but you might have the following as your basic Attack Power:

Damage: Base Cost = 3 points per 1d6
STR Adds: +2 to Base Cost
Range Based on STR: +1 to Base Cost
Fixed Range, 100 hexes: +1 to Base Cost
per x2 Range: +1 to Base Cost
Killing: +1 to Base Cost (purely a POOMA number)

Powers under the current system:


Fire Bolt: 10d6 Energy Blast: 50 Base Points, 250 hex range
Laser Beam: 4d6 RKA: 60 Base Points, 300 hex range
Thrown Shield: Hand Attack +6d6: 30 Base Points, Range Based on STR (+1/4) (38 AP), Hand Attack (-1/2), OAF (-1) (15 Real Cost)
Concussion Grenade: 10d6 EB (50 Base Cost), Explosion (+1/2) (75 Active Cost), OAF (-1), Range Based on STR (-1/2) (30 Real Cost)
Laser Pistol: 2d6 RKA (30 Base Cost, 150 hex range), x8 Range (1200 hexes, +1) (60 Active Cost), OAF (-1), 8 Charges (-1/2) (24 Real Cost)


Become:


Fire Bolt: 10d6 (30), 200 hex Range (+20) = 50 Base Cost
Laser Beam: - 10d6 (30), Killing (+10), 200 hex Range (+20) = 60 Base Cost [NOTE: this assumes complete removal of the Stun Multiplier system; you can find plenty of other posts by me discussing that issue.]
Thrown Shield: 6d6 (18), Range Based on STR (6), STR Adds (12) = 36 Base Cost, OAF (-1) (18 Active Cost)
Concussion Grenade: 10d6 (30), Range Based on STR (10) = 40 Base Cost; AE: Explosion (+1/2) = 60 Active Cost; OAF (-1) = 30 Real Cost
Laser Pistol: 6d6 (18), Killing (+6), 1600 hex Range (+30) = 53 Base Cost; OAF (-1), 8 Charges (-1/2) = 21 Real Cost

Again, the specific values would need to be play-tested to make sure they're balanced in conjunction with other rule changes (obviously how KA changes would have a large impact on these numbers).

The same basic principal would apply to other powers:


"Old" Telekinesis: 30 STR TK 45 points, 225 hex Range
"New" Telekinesis: 30 STR (6d6) (30 points), 200 hex Range (+12) (42 Base Points)

[Kdansky]

I am stronly in favour of making all powers either Ranged or No Range by default. If they cost other values than 3, 5, 10 or 15 per d6 afterwards, fine with me.

The important thing: Which of the two defaults is better? If everything has no range by default that means that people get lower Active Points on these powers, resulting in more dice. I'll give an example:

Ranged Default
60real, 60AP, 12d6 (ranged)
45real, 60AP, 12d6 No Range (-1/2)

No Range Default
40 real, 60 AP, 8d6 Ranged (+1/2)
60 real, 60 AP, 12d6 (not ranged)

Now one has to decide which of the systems will result in better balance. I am strongly in favour of the first one, since that makes MPs a lot more practical. The second one screws the ranged people over brutally, since they won't do much damage anymore. Of course, if you change the limitation values, or even change base d6 pricing accoding to range, the values will change, but the symptom will always be there. In practice, 12d6 ranged or 12d6 melee make some difference, but not a big one (especially since melee 12d6 usually means big str which helps for grabs and so on, so changes to that will have to be taken into consideration).

To put it blunt: I want the system in a way so that ranged and nonranged powers do roughly similar damage. That means range should primarily be reflected by real points, but not active points. You get flexibility (range) for points which you could invest in other powers (flexibility) somewhere else instead. But power-relations don't change suddenly.

But ignoring that, I absolutely adore Netzilla's approach!

[Netzilla]

Perhaps better way to handle this would be:

Attack Power (pick one as your starting point):


Range 200 hexes, STR Does Not Add = 5 per 1d6
Range 0 hexes, STR Does Add = 5 per 1d6


Base Cost Modifiers:


x2 Range: +1 per 1d6
Killing: +2 per 1d6
Add Ranged: +2 per 1d6
Add STR Does Add: +2 per 1d6


Limitations:


No Range and STR Does Not Add (-1/2)
Half Range (-1/4)
Range Based on STR (-1/4)


Then, the list of Attack Powers becomes:


Fire Bolt: 10d6 Ranged = 50 Base Cost with a 200 hex range
Laser Beam: - 7d6 Ranged (35), Killing (+14) = 49 Base Cost w/ a 200 hex range [NOTE: this assumes complete removal of the Stun Multiplier system; you can find plenty of other posts by me discussing that issue.]
Thrown Shield: 6d6 Ranged (30), STR Adds (+12) = 42 Base Cost, OAF (-1), Range Based on STR (-1/4) = 19 Real Cost
Concussion Grenade: 10d6 Ranged (50) = 50 Base Cost; AE: Explosion (+1/2) = 75 Active Cost; OAF (-1), Range Based on STR (-1/4) = 33 Real Cost
Laser Pistol: 6d6 Ranged (30), Killing (+12), x8 Range (+18) = 60 Base Cost; OAF (-1), 8 Charges (-1/2) = 24 Real Cost

This eliminates the possibility of having a 20d6, 60 AP No Range, No STR attack that I know would bug some folks.

This, however, does not fix the problem with low/negative STR Telekinesis that Klaus was talking about over in the other thread.