Powers Issues -- General Questions

[Vulcan]

Who? The users of that system. And, while I have seen several naysayyers who dislike such a resolution system, I also see several people who would value it as a tool in their game. My view, then, is that the tool should be included so those who value it can use it and those that don't can ignore it as they see fit. This is superior to excluding it so those who don't want it don't get it and neither do those who do want it and would value it.

The caveat, however, is where it belongs. I think the core rules need to focus on matters core to most games. Perhaps all the core rules have room for is the detailed physical and mental conflict resolution (as present) plus a discussion of more detailed/granular resolution systems for other areas, and the suggestion that, in some games where combat is a minor facet and not the primary means of resolving success or failure, the more detailed/granular system for physical combat could easily be replaced by opposed skill rolls at the same time as replacing the fast and undetailed mechanism for social conflict, medical treatment, legal battles or what have you is replaced by a more granular system. These more granular systems could then appear in advanced game option books and/or genre or campaign sourcebooks where they are needed.

And this I could live with. That way those who want it can use it, and those who don't want to won't get shanghai'ed into it because "It's in the main book..."

Sorta like the way Knockback is an optional rule, but many players forget that because it's in the core book and it's a rule they use in their games...

[Doc Democracy]

My character is a stand-in for me in the game world. Without me, there is no point to the character. If the character can make decisions without me, then what the heck am I doing there in the first place?

If that works for your game, cool. No rights or wrongs but personally I often like my character to surprise me - makes some things more of a challenge...


I don't browbeat the player into doing things the way I want them to by having my NPC tell them where to go and what to do step-by-step.

I think you keep missing the point that the character's personality is defined by the player, not the GM. There is no browbeating and no results that couldn't be achieved through the greater strong arm tactic of dictating what happens (mind control) than changing the characters perspective and asking the player to decide on actions that take that perspective into consideration...


Maybe Cassanova there should invest in extra PRE and COM, only vs. women, and Mind Control: Req. Seduction roll, single command (Sleep with me!) :D

And that is more palatable in what way?


Oh, look at that! We've done it using the current rules! I guess we don't need that social combat system after all...

Now you started this mail saying that it would be bad to have a system whereby the GM would dictate a characters actions to a player. Now you demonstrate a way to do that. Should we remove that provision?


Doc

[Netzilla]

Maybe Cassanova there should invest in extra PRE and COM, only vs. women, and Mind Control: Req. Seduction roll, single command (Sleep with me!) :D

Oh, look at that! We've done it using the current rules! I guess we don't need that social combat system after all...

I still want to know why ECV and Mental Defense would make one more resistant to Cassanova's advances.

[Vulcan]

Now you started this mail saying that it would be bad to have a system whereby the GM would dictate a characters actions to a player. Now you demonstrate a way to do that. Should we remove that provision?

The point I was making was that we have, in the game right now, more than adequite mechanisms for resolving social interactions. We really don't need to come up with a whole new system for doing so, there already is one. AND it has the benefit of being an understood and accepted part of the rules, so we avoid the whole 'this just means the GM gets to tell me what my character thinks and does' argument.

Not every ConMan is so skilled that he has Mind Control; nor does every would-be Cassanova; nor should they! A social combat system that allows every ConMan and Cassanova to have the same effect is not a good thing!

Granted, IMO. YMMV.

[Vulcan]

I still want to know why ECV and Mental Defense would make one more resistant to Cassanova's advances.

Since EGO is generally equated to willpower (see rules on Pushing and Ignoring Psych Limits), and Mental Defense is almost (not entirely, but close) the same as 'EGO, Defense Only', I would think the connection to be obvious.

[The Main Man]

It is my understanding that Interaction requires communication whereas Mental Powers do not.

[Vulcan]

It is my understanding that Interaction requires communication whereas Mental Powers do not.

Mind Control requires verbal communication unless you take the advantage 'telepathic communication.'

[Ice9]

So where do you give the character a voice. My concern is to provide a mechanism whereby the character has a voice when it comes to crucial decisions.The character doesn't need a voice. They aren't really a person, they didn't set aside time to play, and they aren't going to get bored or frustrated by not having a voice.

Now that said ...
If that works for your game, cool. No rights or wrongs but personally I often like my character to surprise me - makes some things more of a challenge...This is definitely valid - some people want their character to act against their decisions from time to time. However, is it necessary for the system to force this behavior? What if the system simply gave a result like "the con man's speech has the potential to convince you"? At that point, players could go along with that if they felt it added depth, or override it if they felt it detracted from their character.

There is one potential issue with that - it means that "giving the character a voice" often leads you to do tactically bad things, where ignoring that doesn't. So - possible solution - conviction points:
* Whenever you willingly accept your character being influenced, in a situation where they suffer misfortune from doing so, you gain a conviction point.
* Conviction points can be spent several ways - to boost your own social maneuvers, to overcome an influence like Mind Control or a Presence Attack, and possibly to get that one final surge of vigor when the chips are down.

[nexus]

Edit: Never mind. Its not even on topic for the thread.

[ajackson]

Then there's weird sfx interaction

"Why does Cerebral Scrambler Helmet make you harder to Persuade or Seduce?"
It's no weirder than the fact that the Cerebral Scrambler works against all forms of mind control, even ones that are not psychic in special effect. I mean, I've seen hypnotic patterns and subsonic suggestion and pheromones used as special effects for mind control.

[nexus]

It's no weirder than the fact that the Cerebral Scrambler works against all forms of mind control, even ones that are not psychic in special effect. I mean, I've seen hypnotic patterns and subsonic suggestion and pheromones used as special effects for mind control.

*shrugs*

It strikes me as weirder because if the Persuasion/Seduction/Manipulation is carried out one way the helmet works, if it carried out another way (with the exact same sfx just a different mechanic) it has no impact. Thematically, it seems wonky too. Persuasion/Social manipulation (as has been stated repeatedly in this thread) is not "Mind Control". Allot of the baggage that comes with Mental powers reflects the nature of MC but not Social Interaction.

YMMV, of course.

[nexus]

come to think of it, where would a good place to move this discussion be? Skill issues maybe?

[Netzilla]

Since EGO is generally equated to willpower (see rules on Pushing and Ignoring Psych Limits), and Mental Defense is almost (not entirely, but close) the same as 'EGO, Defense Only', I would think the connection to be obvious.

But, as I've pointed out several times and given examples of, not all 'Social Combat' is resisted by will power. How does one's willpower prevent one from being tricked into making a social gaff in front of (and possibly insulting) an important member of the nobility? How does it help a guard not be fooled into believing that you really do work there and just misplaced your badge?

Saying 'just use Mind Control' or 'just use a Presence Attack' works only for a specific range of social interactions but is inadequate for the rest.

[Vulcan]

But, as I've pointed out several times and given examples of, not all 'Social Combat' is resisted by will power. How does one's willpower prevent one from being tricked into making a social gaff in front of (and possibly insulting) an important member of the nobility?

Having the will to remain unflustered by the trickster. Of course, if you have no idea what the proper ettiquette for behavior in front of the noble (i.e. no High Society skill) it's highly likely you'll make the gaff all on your own.

Otherwise it sounds like a job for an opposed High Society roll. Or the trickster uses super-persuasion Mind Control on the noble; "You're going to construe everything he says as an insult."


How does it help a guard not be fooled into believing that you really do work there and just misplaced your badge?

The guard has to remember to stick to the rules, and not be influenced by a friendly, sympathetic chap.


Saying 'just use Mind Control' or 'just use a Presence Attack' works only for a specific range of social interactions but is inadequate for the rest.

If you think so. Personally, I think the present range of options (interaction skills, PRE attacks, Mind Control, and above all roleplaying!) covers social interaction pretty well. Apparently you disagree.

[Catseye]

One more comment on "normalizing" the powers list...

The other thing thats quite confusing is the instant/persistent/constant powers business.

In addition to making the game system effects of different powers truly orthogonal, it would simplify it immensly if all those effects were "instant" by default. You then would make the constant and persistent effects again as "builds" with advantages.

These two changes would immensely simplify learning and using the system.

[Doc Democracy]

Not every ConMan is so skilled that he has Mind Control; nor does every would-be Cassanova; nor should they! A social combat system that allows every ConMan and Cassanova to have the same effect is not a good thing!

But no-one has said that every cassanova would have the same effect, just as having a physical combat system does not make everyone deadly in combat. It provides the potential for detailed social contests in the way that we can conduct detailed physical ones...



If you think so. Personally, I think the present range of options (interaction skills, PRE attacks, Mind Control, and above all roleplaying!) covers social interaction pretty well. Apparently you disagree.

This keeps coming up as well - as if the use of social interaction mechanics negates any roleplay in the game.

If social interaction negates roleplay, how come physical combat doesn't negate roleplay as well. You could quite easily make the same argument to physical combat - roleplay it out - much better than rolling dice...

Doc

[cross-posted to General Skills if anyone has stamina to continue this then that seems the accepted arena for it....]

[steamteck]

One more comment on "normalizing" the powers list...

The other thing thats quite confusing is the instant/persistent/constant powers business.

In addition to making the game system effects of different powers truly orthogonal, it would simplify it immensely if all those effects were "instant" by default. You then would make the constant and persistent effects again as "builds" with advantages.

These two changes would immensely simplify learning and using the system.

I must be not understanding you. Some powers like say, darkness and invisibility, make no sense to be instant by default they should be constant. either that or you are really really confused.:D

[AnotherSkip]

I could see an instant darkness and invisibility (well sorta), they would not be particularly effective combat wise but a possibility anyways.

Ninja Smoke bomb trick or situations wherein you need to break LOS long enough to do something else.

[albin]

I don't like the fixed levels of various powers.

Damage Reduction, for example, is worth less in Heroic then in Superheroic, at least it should be. If the standard damage in Champions is, say, 12d and the standard total defense is, say, 20, then Damage Reduction 50% removes about 10 Stun from the damage taken. In Dark Champions you can about halve the damage and defense people have so the same Damage Reduction would remove only about 5 Stun. The simple way to make it worth having Damage Reduction in heroic is to halve the cost for it. I bet there are other powers where you could apply this to aswell, make it cost less in Heroic compaired to Superheroic. Not the best solution but it might work and it beats how it works now. I can see how it's worth to spend 60 pts to halve basicly all damage takes in Superheroic (I still think it's a bit much since you could have increased you PD and ED with 30) but in Heroic? Versus most attacks at lower points it better to get Combat Luck for 6 pts and spend the remaining 54 pts on something else.

Then we have Mental Powers which most of them need to reach a fixed level, like EGO+20. To reach EG0+30, you need about 9d6+whatever is needed to beat the targets EGO. Those extra 9d6 is always there, no matter what setting and you have to pay the same, no matter if you are built on 50 pts or 350 pts. Sure, in Superheroic people tend to have more EGO and more Mental Defense and that is as it should be but the differance is often less then the fixed values you need to reach. Given the numbers above, 12 DC attacks is standard for Champions and 6 DC is standard for Dark Champions (just to compaire...) but when it comes to powers like Mind Control, it seems you need 12d6 to have a chance to reach the highest effect no matter if it's Heroic or Superheroic. That feels strange to me. Again, I have no really good solution to this but instead of making the scale EGO, EGO+10, EGO+20 and so on, in Heroic you could make them EGO, EGO+5, EGO+10 or something like that. I guess I would like to see a total rework of how these powers work, some kind of Mental Stun perhaps? If you can make someone stunned or even knocked out with a 6d6 EB in the setting, it would be nice if you could control their actions with a 6d6 Mind Control, not just make them do things they probably would have done anyway.

Another one of these powers is Transform. Sure, people tend to have more Body and Power Defense if Superheroic then Heroic but you still need a base of about 6d6 Major Transform to create a man-to-frog spell no matter what.

Since regular damage scale well with defense and body/stun for each setting, why can't other powers do the same? It's nearly impossible to play in a heroic setting based around psionics since the characters need that much points just to be able to do what they should be able to do that it brings them up to Superheroic anyway.

[BobGreenwade]

I've been paging through USPD and the Powers sections of the Ultimate books, and I've noticed that there are conceptual differences between attacks that work at No Range and those that work at Touch Range. There aren't any real mechanical differences, but there can be advantages to merely having to be very close to a target versus having to target them (not the least of which is that the former will generally not set off the target's Damage Shield). Something should be said about this in the book, and if we get a finer grain for Power Modifiers there should be a value difference as well.

Also, I think we'd be served well to have a differentiation between attacks that cause pain and those that do not. I can see good and bad both ways; an attack that doesn't cause pain won't cause Wounding and can't be used in Interrogation, but is less likely to get avoidance from targets (if it's pleasurable, it might actually get them to ask for it). I don't think this needs to be more than a paragraph or two in the main rulebook, with further expansions in the Advanced book, but I do think it needs to be at least addressed to that extent.

[The Main Man]

"Touch" could be an additional -1/4 Limitation that applies to No Range.

As far as painlessness goes I could argues that Invisible to Touch Group could work.

[IndianaJoe3]

Time for my final thoughts on General Power issues.

Adjustment Powers
REC and END are considered to be Defensive Powers for purposes of applying Adjustment Powers. (They were reduced in cost, so this is to offset that reduction.)

Mental Powers
Classes of minds now default to Sentient (human), Animal, Machine, and Alien. Most characters should fall under Sentient. The Alien class is reserved for beings whose thoughts and perceptions are truly inexplicable (Old Ones, wormhole aliens, etc).

Movement Powers
Movement Powers (except Extra-Dimensional Movement, Leaping, FTL Travel, and Teleportation) are now purchased per turn, instead of per phase. Characters must divide their movement as evenly as possible between phases. The GM and the player must decide in advance when the character takes any remaining movement.
Characters require distance equal to their half move to reach full combat velocity.

[The Main Man]

Mental Powers
Classes of minds now default to Sentient (human), Animal, Machine, and Alien. Most characters should fall under Sentient. The Alien class is reserved for beings whose thoughts and perceptions are truly inexplicable (Old Ones, wormhole aliens, etc).
Yes, that is how I view "Alien" class of minds myself.:)

[Hugh Neilson]

Time for my final thoughts on General Power issues.

Adjustment Powers
REC and END are considered to be Defensive Powers for purposes of applying Adjustment Powers. (They were reduced in cost, so this is to offset that reduction.)

I would also reduce the cost of STUN, so it would also fall into this category. The impact of characteristic repricing, especially if Figured's are dropped, on the effectiveness of adjustment powers needs to be addressed.

If it costs +1/4 to adjust any one ability of any given SFX, and +1/4 to double the number of abilities, it should cost +1/4 to adjust two fixed abilities. The flexibility of changing the abilities adjusted should be separated from the ability to adjust multiple things at once.


Mental Powers
Classes of minds now default to Sentient (human), Animal, Machine, and Alien. Most characters should fall under Sentient. The Alien class is reserved for beings whose thoughts and perceptions are truly inexplicable (Old Ones, wormhole aliens, etc).

Classes of mind should be eliminated from the core rules, and reserved for genre-specific rules and/or setting-specific rules. The concept that mental powers that work on all sentient characters are equally valuable to mental powers that only affect sentient machines, non-sentient animals or the truly alien is unreasonable. The concept that all those aliens lump together into a homogenous category is equally unreasonable.

A catagory of mental powers affecting nonsentient machines like computers and automobiles should be incorporated as a separate series of powers in 6e.


Movement Powers
Movement Powers (except Extra-Dimensional Movement, Leaping, FTL Travel, and Teleportation) are now purchased per turn, instead of per phase. Characters must divide their movement as evenly as possible between phases. The GM and the player must decide in advance when the character takes any remaining movement.
Characters require distance equal to their half move to reach full combat velocity.

The pricing of movement must then assume a standard SPD. If I am over the standard (most Supers likely will be), then I should buy leaping and teleport, since I will get more value from these than movement that breaks out per phase.

While I understand the desire to have movement divorced from Speed, I find it impractical, and not worth the added complexity for the benefit provided.

[Hugh Neilson]

Mental powers should not grant mental awareness. You don't get to save 20% by foregoing it, and you spend the 3 points if you want it.

[BobGreenwade]

Mental Powers
Classes of minds now default to Sentient (human), Animal, Machine, and Alien. Most characters should fall under Sentient. The Alien class is reserved for beings whose thoughts and perceptions are truly inexplicable (Old Ones, wormhole aliens, etc).I tend to agree here, except for one relatively nitpicky item. Rather than "sentient," say "sapient." Sentient literally means "able to sense," and nearly every life form on the planet has that ability to some level (even if it's extremely rudimentary). Sapient literally means "having wisdom," and is the more proper term for referring to that level of intelligence possessed by humans and no other Earthly creature -- hence the term homo sapiens as our species name.

[ajackson]

Classes of minds now default to Sentient (human), Animal, Machine, and Alien. Most characters should fall under Sentient. The Alien class is reserved for beings whose thoughts and perceptions are truly inexplicable (Old Ones, wormhole aliens, etc).
I would simply eliminate the Alien class of mind -- if you want to have alien mental processes, simply buy lots of mental defense, since there's no guarantee that a mental power that works on an old one will work on a wormhole alien anyway. Also, a character should probably have to pay to be in a different class of mind (mostly a factor for computers).

[Hugh Neilson]

I would simply eliminate the Alien class of mind -- if you want to have alien mental processes, simply buy lots of mental defense, since there's no guarantee that a mental power that works on an old one will work on a wormhole alien anyway. Also, a character should probably have to pay to be in a different class of mind (mostly a factor for computers).

I would simply eliminate classes of mind -- if you want to have mental processes which are resistant to mental powers, simply buy lots of mental defense. If it has an Ego, mental powers should affect it. If it lacks an Ego, we need a new category of mental powers which works on something other than mental processes (eg. the ability to control computers, robots, mindless undead, etc.). Perhaps powers which work against a single type of "no ego" entity by default.

[ajackson]

I would simply eliminate classes of mind -- if you want to have mental processes which are resistant to mental powers, simply buy lots of mental defense. If it has an Ego, mental powers should affect it. If it lacks an Ego, we need a new category of mental powers which works on something other than mental processes (eg. the ability to control computers, robots, mindless undead, etc.). Perhaps powers which work against a single type of "no ego" entity by default.
Something to be said for this, though some comments on stuff like 'resistant, except against certain types of mind control' could be useful. The main virtue of something about an 'animal' class of mind should probably be broadened to 'works vs non-sapient creatures'.

[Lucius]

I would simply eliminate classes of mind -- if you want to have mental processes which are resistant to mental powers, simply buy lots of mental defense. If it has an Ego, mental powers should affect it. If it lacks an Ego, we need a new category of mental powers which works on something other than mental processes (eg. the ability to control computers, robots, mindless undead, etc.). Perhaps powers which work against a single type of "no ego" entity by default.

This is why I think the concept of the property of being immune to most physical and energy attacks, including ones such as Drains and No Normal Defense attacks, should be expanded to Mental Powers too, whether this property is left as part of Desolid or made into its own Power or taken to be 100% Damage Resistance. If some minds are going to be automatically immune to most Mental Powers, it should not be "Free."

Lucius Alexander

Putting the palindromedary in a class by itself.

[BobGreenwade]

I've sat down over the past couple of weeks and cobbled together what I can about Senses, to try to determine what would probably be the best way to define and distribute the Sense Groups based on real-world senses as well as game balance. Since there's no clear place on the boards for a discussion of Senses, and this affects how many Powers are built, I figured this would be the best place for it

The list of Sense Groups I was able to come up with are:
Sight Hearing Smell Touch Proprioceptive Noetic Mental Mystic Radio Electric Magnetic RadiationThe Sight, Hearing, Mental, and Radio Groups are as they are in 5ER. The Smell Group is just a new, shortened name for what is now the Smell/Taste Group. The Mystic, Electric, Magnetic, and Radiation Groups should be self-explanatory.

The Proprioceptive Sense Group includes Proprioception (the sense of one's body position), Interoception (the sense of one's physical state, as hunger, thirst, sleepiness, and the like), and Pain. Proprioception covers most of the function of DEX; for game purposes someone with Flashed Proprioception would, among other things, act as though he has DEX 0 for all purposes other than Initiative and calculation of SPD.

Much of what's defined above as part of the Proprioceptive Group is, in 5th Ed, treated as part of the Touch Group. Here, the Touch Sense Group consists only of Normal Touch (the "pressure sense" that tells us the hardness, weight, and texture of what we touch) and Temperature Sense (which can be treated as Infrared Perception in the Touch Group). It should have Sense, Targeting, and Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees) to it.

The Noetic Sense Group is that collection of truly internal senses, based on what we instinctively know or process from information: sense of self ("I exist," and knowledge of one's own thoughts; this is true Noesis), sense of language, sense of time, sense of humor, sense of right and wrong, recognition of stimuli (such as how we know who we're talking to by recognizing a face or voice), and so forth. When a psychic or prophet "just knows" something, with no particular "mind's eye" picture or any similar phenomenon, this can be built as Noetic Clairsentience.

Both balance and logic dictate that Sight, Touch, and Proprioception be treated as Targeting Sense Groups, and the others not.

If the threads aren't locked when I come on tomorrow, I'll post a bit more on some of these ideas (probably influenced by any responses people post).

[ajackson]

The list of Sense Groups I was able to come up with are:
Sight Hearing Smell Touch Proprioceptive Noetic Mental
Mystic Radio Electric Magnetic RadiationThe Sight, Hearing, Mental, and Radio Groups are as they are in 5ER.
The proprioceptive group isn't really useful as a sense group, since it doesn't give information about the external universe, it gives information about the self (pain should go in the touch group). Ditto for noetic (it has applications for recognizing the effects of mind control, but that can be folded into mental). Radio, Electric, and Magnetic should all be folded into a single sense group. I'm not sure that Radiation is useful as a distinctive sense group, it's really a specialized Detect. Smell might be better renamed Chemical. You'll still need Exotic, to detect the various technobabble effects that might be present in a fictional universe (mystic is actually a member of this group).

[AnotherSkip]

And right there you are using your noetic sense to post a reply....

[BobGreenwade]

The proprioceptive group isn't really useful as a sense group, since it doesn't give information about the external universe, it gives information about the self (pain should go in the touch group).It's not really necessary for a Sense Group to give information about the external universe to be useful. For one thing, if it's noted as a Sense Group, then it can be affected by Sense-Affecting Powers such as Flash or Images. A person Flashed to Proprioception would be at 0 OCV, half DCV for attacks he can perceive with a Targeting Sense and 0 DCV for all other attacks, and must either watch his feet or make a PER Roll when he walks more than 1" per Phase or he'll fall down.

For another, it's quite possible to have useful Detects with the Proprioceptive Group; for example, a proprioceptive Detect Poison would tell the character when he's been hit with a poisonous attack (including not just poisonous food but also poison gas, poisoned arrows, venomous bites, and such) even before the poison actually takes effect, potentially giving additional time to find an antidote. Sure, that Detect could be done now as "No Sense Group," but having a Sense Group to stick it into has potential for Sense Group Modifiers and other abilities.

The reason I put pain into the Proprioceptive Group is that one typically continues to feel pain after an injury. This makes it an internal sense rather than an external sense. As an interesting effect, if a character is Flashed to Pain Sense (or is in a Darkness to Pain Sense area) and is hit more than once, the total STUN he loses (after any Recoveries, including Post-12) is evaluated when the effect is removed to check for whether he's Stunned or not.
Ditto for noetic (it has applications for recognizing the effects of mind control, but that can be folded into mental).Again, not so much, but that's just because you (like nearly everyone else in the world) take your noetic senses for granted. To give an example, the old "I'm not really here" trick could be done quite neatly with Invisibility to Noetic Sense. Imitating someone's speech patterns and body language ("He switched bodies with me!") could involve a Shape Shift to Noetic Senses; Acting would specifically target the observer's Noetic Sense in the same way. Danger Sense is often noetic in nature even when it resembles a psychic ability (Spider-Man being the prime example).

In evaluating the appropriateness of Proprioceptive and Noetic Sense Groups, consider what effects Sense-Affecting Powers to these Sense Groups might have.
Radio, Electric, and Magnetic should all be folded into a single sense group.The first two, perhaps, though in a way they're different phenomena. Radio is modulated electromagnetic waves, more similar to light than electricity; Electric Sense detects electric fields such as those given off by living things and electronic devices. If one assumes that they would be consistently affected by each other's Sense-Affecting Powers -- for example, if a radio jammer would disrupt a shark's or platypus' electrosense -- then yes, fold those two together.

Magnetism, on the other hand, is quite different from electricity. That's why hammerhead sharks have separate organs for electrosense (which they use to find prey) and magnetosense (which they use to navigate their surroundings).
I'm not sure that Radiation is useful as a distinctive sense group, it's really a specialized Detect.In a way, yes, though I'd be hard pressed to call it a part of one of the others. It might go with radio, since there's some overlap in physical properties, but (unless I'm mistaken, which I very well could be) there's still a fair difference between a radio scanner and a geiger counter.
Smell might be better renamed Chemical.Technically, you're absolutely correct; in fact, that's what scientists call that group of senses. The only reason I didn't propose that name change is because it might confuse the average person.
You'll still need Exotic, to detect the various technobabble effects that might be present in a fictional universe (mystic is actually a member of this group).Most technobabble effects in fictional universes can fall under Radiation. In fact, most that I can think of are described that way anyhow. And in nearly any world I'm aware of where magic and advanced technology coexist, they are two very different phenomena (I think one or two settings have them overlapping, but those are special cases).

[ajackson]

For another, it's quite possible to have useful Detects with the Proprioceptive Group; for example, a proprioceptive Detect Poison would tell the character when he's been hit with a poisonous attack (including not just poisonous food but also poison gas, poisoned arrows, venomous bites, and such) even before the poison actually takes effect, potentially giving additional time to find an antidote.
Granted, though I'm not sure this sort of effect is useful enough to be given a sense group.

Again, not so much, but that's just because you (like nearly everyone else in the world) take your noetic senses for granted. To give an example, the old "I'm not really here" trick could be done quite neatly with Invisibility to Noetic Sense.
No it can't. Noetic sense is self-awareness. If you turn invisible to noetic sense, you are no longer aware of yourself, but everyone else remains aware of you. Ditto for all your other examples.

Magnetism, on the other hand, is quite different from electricity. That's why hammerhead sharks have separate organs for electrosense (which they use to find prey) and magnetosense (which they use to navigate their surroundings).
There's a high probability that effects that confuse one sense will also confuse the other -- at least comparable to the odds of something effective against visible light also blocking infrared.

In a way, yes, though I'd be hard pressed to call it a part of one of the others.
It's not. It's part of the Other sense group, along with a bunch of other specialized senses. My point is mostly that radiation is too narrow to be a sense 'group'.

Most technobabble effects in fictional universes can fall under Radiation.
Only if you use a definition of Radiation that's so broad that it also covers the visual and radio (electric/magnetic) sense groups.

And in nearly any world I'm aware of where magic and advanced technology coexist, they are two very different phenomena (I think one or two settings have them overlapping, but those are special cases).
Exotic is 'any otherwise unclassifiable sense', and is a good catch-bin for anything that doesn't actually exist in our universe. It doesn't imply that the senses in the group are related.

[BobGreenwade]

No it can't. Noetic sense is self-awareness. If you turn invisible to noetic sense, you are no longer aware of yourself, but everyone else remains aware of you. Ditto for all your other examples.I mis-"spoke" here. I should have said a Noetic Sense, meaning a Sense that would be part of the Noetic Sense Group, not Noesis itself (which you quite correctly define).

Also, in response to a couple of other remarks, a part of what I was trying to do with the "Other" or "Special" category was eliminate it. I neglected to mention that (sorry about that), or the principle that the GM would still be able to add Sense Groups for special setting-specific phenomena.

Your other counter-arguments are mainly valid, and things could work in any number of ways. I actually was less interested in saying that the way I presented the groups are the way they should or must be, which would lead to a lot of pointless arguing, than I was in presenting a manner of thought that could make the Senses a bit better organized and delineated.

[PhilFleischmann]

It's not really necessary for a Sense Group to give information about the external universe to be useful. For one thing, if it's noted as a Sense Group, then it can be affected by Sense-Affecting Powers such as Flash or Images. A person Flashed to Proprioception would be at 0 OCV, half DCV for attacks he can perceive with a Targeting Sense and 0 DCV for all other attacks, and must either watch his feet or make a PER Roll when he walks more than 1" per Phase or he'll fall down.
I don't think the penalties for flashed priprioception should be that harsh. There's a lot more cues for targeting (and perceiving incoming attacks!) than just kinesthetics, balance, et al. Most significantly are sight and touch. If you can still see your target, and your weapon/hands, you still ought to be able to target an attack pretty well. And you can still walk (or even run) fairly well even if you can't feel your legs. Ever walked with both feet asleep? It feels weird, but it's not that hard to do.

We remember the way we move our bodies even when we can't sense the movements.

I'd say loss of proprioception might me -1 or -2 OCV at most, perhaps additional penalties for attacks requiring greater finesse, such as called shots and Martial maneuvers, and probably Rapid Attacks. Maybe -2 to -4 on physical Skill rolls depending on the precision required (maybe more). I don't see much reason for any DCV penalty. Running might require a straight DEX Roll to not fall down, at say, +1 per -2" you slow down, and with penalties for uneven/slippery ground/obstacles/debris in the path, or if sharp turns are required. Or say that running is normal, but has a turn mode while your proprioception is impaired.

Another thought that occurs to me: How 'bout just a -1 for all physical Skill rolls, and any difficulty modifiers are doubled? That way a "normal" task is at -1. A Difficult task that would normally be at -1 is now at -3. A Difficult task that would normally be at -2 is now at -5. etc.

[BobGreenwade]

I was going by the effects of real-world people who have lost proprioception. But for short-term losses such as one might get in a Proprioceptive Flash, the point you make about remembering how one's body works is a valid one; a lesser penalty might be more appropriate.

You know, after these threads are locked, I may just start something over in the Hero System Discussion area just to hash out the possibilities (especially if I learn that Steve decided to keep the Sense Groups as they already are).

[PhilFleischmann]

I was going by the effects of real-world people who have lost proprioception. But for short-term losses such as one might get in a Proprioceptive Flash, the point you make about remembering how one's body works is a valid one; a lesser penalty might be more appropriate.

You know, after these threads are locked, I may just start something over in the Hero System Discussion area just to hash out the possibilities (especially if I learn that Steve decided to keep the Sense Groups as they already are).
I remember discussing this before, although I used the terms "kinesthetic sense" and "sense of balance" specifically, which I guess form the bulk of the proprioceptive group.

[Steve Long]

Hey folx! It's time for me to start reading all the 6E threads, and that means I need to lock them.

Hopefully 15 months has been plenty of time for anyone who wanted to have a say, to have a say. ;) So please, don't start up other threads to try to continue discussions, send me PMs with points you "just have to make," or anything like that. It's time for y'all to sit back, relax, have a frosty beverage, and let me get 6E written. ;)

We definitely appreciate everyone's interest, participation, and ideas! I'm looking forward to reading the posts and seeing what nuggets of wisdom lurk therein. I have no doubt 6E is going to be even better than it would have been because of our fans' enthusiastic efforts at providing us with input and suggestions. :hex: