Powers Issues -- General Questions

[Steve Long]

Hi folx! Here are some thoughts about Powers in general — their nature, as a game element category, etc. — that have occurred to me over the years, along with my brief thoughts on them. I’m posting them here to stimulate discussion, but not to limit or restrict it. These aren’t necessarily all the general issues about Powers that could be considered, nor the only thoughts about them. Feel free to post anything here that you think is relevant and reasonably constructive; you don’t have to limit yourself to what I’ve posted.

Regardless of whatever opinion I post on an idea, I’m always willing to be convinced otherwise if you think you can do it. ;) The fact that I’m posting an opinion doesn’t necessarily mean my mind’s made up on an issue; it just indicates my current thinking on the subject.

Periodically I may post other questions and thoughts that occur to me.


Q: Should we change the term “Power”?

Steve’s Thoughts: The use of “Power” as a term for a game element is confusing, since it’s not the same thing as a power, and because Powers can be used to create abilities that people don’t think of as “powers.” It’s a relic of the HERO System’s roots in the Comic Book Superhero genre.

However, despite my not liking it, and despite having discussed this issue with a lot of people over the years, I’ve yet to come up with anything better.


Q: Should we consider renaming some of the Powers?

Steve’s Thoughts: Arguably some of the Powers still have names that are a bit too “comic book-y,” that suggest certain special effects, or that use strained language. Here are some examples that occur to me:

Current Name —> Possible Change
Armor —> Defense, Passive
Desolidification —> Intangibiliity
Ego Attack —> Mental Attack
Energy Blast —> Normal Attack, Ranged (or possibly “Blast”)
Entangle —> Restrain
Force Field —> Defense, Active
Force Wall —> Wall (or maybe Barrier)
HA —> Normal Attack, HTH

And perhaps all the continuing-effect Mental Powers should have more “generic” names, too, but I think that can slide given that they are, in fact, Mental/Psionic 99% of the time. ;)

Honestly, though — I’m not sure making these changes gains us much of anything. They’re definitely more generic and less superhero-y, but also kind of flavorless. I’m not sure it’s worth upsetting the apple cart. The only one I’m strongly sold on so far is Ego Attack —> Mental Attack.


Q: Should we consider adding some new Powers?

Steve’s Thoughts: There’s certainly no shortage of candidates for new Powers that have been suggested over the years. In my HEROglyphs columns I described the following:

Probability Alteration (DH #4, allows character to alter probabilities affecting him or others)
Object Creation DH #7, allows creation of simple objects)
Activate (DH #14, allows character to activate devices/machines at range)
Automaton Powers (DH #44, Automaton Powers for all character types)

Of these, I think the one that definitely deserves serious consideration is Activate. The contortions I had to go through to build abilities to activate devices in the USPD tell me that we need some standard, easy-to-use rule for that effect.

Beyond those, other suggestions I have heard include:

—making Succor a distinct Power
—a power that allows characters to suffocate targets
—a power that allows characters to inflict a Stunned effect on a target without actually doing any STUN or BODY damage
—a power that instantly Knocks Out a target without any physical effects like Knockback or injury (for, e.g., sleep spells)
—a HTH Deflection that does for HTH attacks what Missile Deflection does for Ranged attacks
—a personal Defense Power that provides protection like a Force Wall does
—an Invulnerability power

In considering whether to add a new Power, I think we should keep several issues in mind. First, does a new Power make the HERO System easier to learn or use? You can, for example, build a suffocation attack now, but it’s not as easy or effective as it perhaps should be; adding Suffocate as a Power increases ease of use. Second, does a new Power plug a “gap” in the System or provide something that’s lacking? A “Stun you” and “Knock you Out” Powers would fall into this category. Third, can a new Power be expressed relatively “generically” and in a way that makes it useful in enough genres to merit inclusion in the core rules?


Q: Should we collapse the Powers down to a very small number and “create” the other effects with Advantages and Limitations?

Steve’s Thoughts: As early as the 4th Edition design process it was suggested that the number of Powers be boiled down to four — Attack, Defend, Move, Sense — and that all the different Power effects be created from them with Power Modifiers. I don’t think the idea had any more merit then than it does now, and have no intention of implementing it (unless, as usual, someone were to come up with an utterly brilliant argument in its favor). I think this would make the HERO System even harder to learn and create far more problems than it might solve.

[JmOz]

Hi folx! Here are some thoughts about Powers in general — their nature, as a game element category, etc. — that have occurred to me over the years, along with my brief thoughts on them. I’m posting them here to stimulate discussion, but not to limit or restrict it. These aren’t necessarily all the general issues about Powers that could be considered, nor the only thoughts about them. Feel free to post anything here that you think is relevant and reasonably constructive; you don’t have to limit yourself to what I’ve posted.

Regardless of whatever opinion I post on an idea, I’m always willing to be convinced otherwise if you think you can do it. ;) The fact that I’m posting an opinion doesn’t necessarily mean my mind’s made up on an issue; it just indicates my current thinking on the subject.

Periodically I may post other questions and thoughts that occur to me.


Q: Should we change the term “Power”?

Steve’s Thoughts: The use of “Power” as a term for a game element is confusing, since it’s not the same thing as a power, and because Powers can be used to create abilities that people don’t think of as “powers.” It’s a relic of the HERO System’s roots in the Comic Book Superhero genre.

However, despite my not liking it, and despite having discussed this issue with a lot of people over the years, I’ve yet to come up with anything better.


Q: Should we consider renaming some of the Powers?

Steve’s Thoughts: Arguably some of the Powers still have names that are a bit too “comic book-y,” that suggest certain special effects, or that use strained language. Here are some examples that occur to me:

Current Name —> Possible Change
Armor —> Defense, Passive
Desolidification —> Intangibiliity
Ego Attack —> Mental Attack
Energy Blast —> Normal Attack, Ranged (or possibly “Blast”)
Entangle —> Restrain
Force Field —> Defense, Active
Force Wall —> Wall (or maybe Barrier)
HA —> Normal Attack, HTH

And perhaps all the continuing-effect Mental Powers should have more “generic” names, too, but I think that can slide given that they are, in fact, Mental/Psionic 99% of the time. ;)

Honestly, though — I’m not sure making these changes gains us much of anything. They’re definitely more generic and less superhero-y, but also kind of flavorless. I’m not sure it’s worth upsetting the apple cart. The only one I’m strongly sold on so far is Ego Attack —> Mental Attack.


Q: Should we consider adding some new Powers?

Steve’s Thoughts: There’s certainly no shortage of candidates for new Powers that have been suggested over the years. In my HEROglyphs columns I described the following:

Probability Alteration (DH #4, allows character to alter probabilities affecting him or others)
Object Creation DH #7, allows creation of simple objects)
Activate (DH #14, allows character to activate devices/machines at range)
Automaton Powers (DH #44, Automaton Powers for all character types)

Of these, I think the one that definitely deserves serious consideration is Activate. The contortions I had to go through to build abilities to activate devices in the USPD tell me that we need some standard, easy-to-use rule for that effect.

Beyond those, other suggestions I have heard include:

—making Succor a distinct Power
—a power that allows characters to suffocate targets
—a power that allows characters to inflict a Stunned effect on a target without actually doing any STUN or BODY damage
—a power that instantly Knocks Out a target without any physical effects like Knockback or injury (for, e.g., sleep spells)
—a HTH Deflection that does for HTH attacks what Missile Deflection does for Ranged attacks
—a personal Defense Power that provides protection like a Force Wall does
—an Invulnerability power

In considering whether to add a new Power, I think we should keep several issues in mind. First, does a new Power make the HERO System easier to learn or use? You can, for example, build a suffocation attack now, but it’s not as easy or effective as it perhaps should be; adding Suffocate as a Power increases ease of use. Second, does a new Power plug a “gap” in the System or provide something that’s lacking? A “Stun you” and “Knock you Out” Powers would fall into this category. Third, can a new Power be expressed relatively “generically” and in a way that makes it useful in enough genres to merit inclusion in the core rules?


Q: Should we collapse the Powers down to a very small number and “create” the other effects with Advantages and Limitations?

Steve’s Thoughts: As early as the 4th Edition design process it was suggested that the number of Powers be boiled down to four — Attack, Defend, Move, Sense — and that all the different Power effects be created from them with Power Modifiers. I don’t think the idea had any more merit then than it does now, and have no intention of implementing it (unless, as usual, someone were to come up with an utterly brilliant argument in its favor). I think this would make the HERO System even harder to learn and create far more problems than it might solve.

As for new powers I would like to see the F/X based defence from UEP be made standard, I would also like to see FF go away

also and this is a biggie, We need a possesion power, a your body disapears and is in the other person, probably with a -1/2 lim for personality switch

[Andrew Cermak]

Q: Should we change the term “Power”?

Q: Should we consider renaming some of the Powers?



I, for one, am indifferent to name changes of any kind. While they might make the system more "universal," they'd also hinder backwards-compatibility.


Q: Should we consider adding some new Powers?


Most definitely. While the existing system can simulate any effect, it can't always do it elegantly; sometimes, it can't even do it very sensibly.


Probability Alteration (DH #4, allows character to alter probabilities affecting him or others)

If Hero Points are included in the system, this Power might become redundant. If they aren't, then I would favor this Power or some variation being included in 6th.


Object Creation DH #7, allows creation of simple objects)


I'm somewhat in favor of including this Power because it limits the dependence on Transform to model effects, which sometimes gets out of hand. Perhaps it could be expanded to allow for the creation of Green Lantern-style Force Objects.


Activate (DH #14, allows character to activate devices/machines at range)


I think this Power needs to be included, and also needs to be explictly expanded to allow for the Activation of non-mechanical Powers.

Automaton Powers (DH #44, Automaton Powers for all character types)


—a power that allows characters to suffocate targets
—a power that allows characters to inflict a Stunned effect on a target without actually doing any STUN or BODY damage
—a power that instantly Knocks Out a target without any physical effects like Knockback or injury (for, e.g., sleep spells)
—a HTH Deflection that does for HTH attacks what Missile Deflection does for Ranged attacks


I'm in favor of each and every one of these. The "Stun" Power should perhaps have levels of effect: at the most basic level, it costs the target a Phase of actions but doesn't inflict any other penalty associated with being Stunned, while progressively higher levels would inflict the DCV penalty and forcible turn-off of the target's Powers.


—a personal Defense Power that provides protection like a Force Wall does
—an Invulnerability power


I think the first Power (which I support including) at least partially obviates the need for the second. It's much easier to model Invulnerability when you don't need to worry about blocking massive amounts of Stun damage.


Besides the above suggestions, I think a "Trip"/"Throw"/"Knockdown" Power would be useful.


Q: Should we collapse the Powers down to a very small number and “create” the other effects with Advantages and Limitations?


Most definitely not. The Power system is, IMO, the essence of Hero, and changing it that much would feel more like a new game than a new edition.

[incrdbil]

I think some tinkering with defense powers, particualrly force field is perhaps called for.

Armor is, to me, a deal, in comparison to FF. Yes, FF does have the advantage of the adder that lets you protect things that are carried.

But the fact that armor is 0 END, its persistant, and has no visible effect seems to counter that. Buying Armor with all the limits to make it act like force field makes it cheaper than force field.

Maybe the solution is to somehow make force field cheaper, or have it too start out as 0 end, but not persitant, counterbalanced by having the adder for carried objects/persons.

[nexus]

I'm really not sure about an "instant stun/knockout" power. There's a way to model those effects currently (large, often NND attacks, for one). Seems like the effect would have to be prohibitively expensive to be balanced and borders on being an absolute.

[Andrew Cermak]

I'm really not sure about an "instant stun/knockout" power. There's a way to model those effects currently (large, often NND attacks, for one). Seems like the effect would have to be prohibitively expensive to be balanced and borders on being an absolute.

The problem is that under the current system, for example, putting someone to sleep is essentially the same as damaging them. Injured people fall asleep faster, and when you heal them, they wake up. It's very unusual and means that powers with that special effect just don't feel right.

[Balok]

Q: Should we change the term “Power”?I can't see making this change. Admittedly I spent only a few minutes mulling ideas, but everything I came up with was either lame, ambiguous or suggested some other genre that comic books. Unless you hit on something clearly superior to Power, I'd leave it alone.

Q: Should we consider renaming some of the Powers?

Steve’s Thoughts: Arguably some of the Powers still have names that are a bit too “comic book-y,” that suggest certain special effects, or that use strained language. Here are some examples that occur to me:

Current Name —> Possible Change
Armor —> Defense, Passive
Desolidification —> Intangibiliity
Ego Attack —> Mental Attack
Energy Blast —> Normal Attack, Ranged (or possibly “Blast”)
Entangle —> Restrain
Force Field —> Defense, Active
Force Wall —> Wall (or maybe Barrier)
HA —> Normal Attack, HTHWell, I agree with Ego Attack -> Mental Attack, and I'd like to cast my vote for Desolidification -> Intangibility if only because the latter is actually a word in the English language. :) I don't see the rest of them as clear improvements, and I particularly dislike "Defense, Passive" and "Defense, Active" which remind me of military procurement forms. I'd think if you went with those names you'd want an entry under the old names Armor and Force Field that directed people where to find these effects. Thinking about it a little more, I do also kind of like "Entangle -> Restrain." People familiar with the system understand what Entangle is, but to new folks the word Entangle sort of implies a physical object.

Q: Should we consider adding some new Powers?

Probability Alteration (DH #4, allows character to alter probabilities affecting him or others)
Object Creation DH #7, allows creation of simple objects)
Activate (DH #14, allows character to activate devices/machines at range)
I can see a case for each of these. I'm a touch leery of the name "Activation" because it implies you can turn something on and not much else. "Control" comes to mind as a replacement but it has semantic problems, too. I can't offer a replacement name that I like.

—a power that allows characters to suffocate targetsThis seems a little specific for a Hero power to me.

—a power that allows characters to inflict a Stunned effect on a target without actually doing any STUN or BODY damageIMO, this seems a little close to absolutism.

—a power that instantly Knocks Out a target without any physical effects like Knockback or injury (for, e.g., sleep spells)Likewise.

—a HTH Deflection that does for HTH attacks what Missile Deflection does for Ranged attacksHmmm. I think this would have to be expensive or GMs would constantly be telling characters they can't have it because it's out of concept. It would be the Wii of powers - everyone would want it. ;)

—an Invulnerability powerI see that risk of absolutism, again. I'd have to know what the power entailed - what it brings to the table that can't be simulated with high defenses and/or damage reduction. Maybe I'm missing something obvious?

Q: Should we collapse the Powers down to a very small number and “create” the other effects with Advantages and Limitations?I don't think this would be a good idea for basically the same reasons you cited, and especially as regards helping people learn the system. If every power requires a complex description, new people are going to face a steep learning curve, which I'd guess is the opposite of what you want in a new edition...

[nexus]

The problem is that under the current system, for example, putting someone to sleep is essentially the same as damaging them. Injured people fall asleep faster, and when you heal them, they wake up. It's very unusual and means that powers with that special effect just don't feel right.

I see where your coming from even though I don't feel the same way. Stun (and Body) are abstractions after all but I can see your point.

Edit: Maybe something like Entangle but based on Con, sfx: Target is "stunned" or unconscious?

[incrdbil]

Probability Alteration (DH #4, allows character to alter probabilities affecting him or others)
Sounds interesting, and maybe as a good building block for other powers created by a GM.

Object Creation DH #7, allows creation of simple objects)

Different from the current transform rules?

Activate (DH #14, allows character to activate devices/machines at range)

Nuetral feelings. Feels to campaign specific.

Automaton Powers (DH #44, Automaton Powers for all character types)

No idea, one of those 'I'd have to see it' things.

As for the other suggested, they fall into to the 'we can build these easily already' category for the most part.

—a power that allows characters to suffocate targets

Thats an effect many powers can simulate already, IMO.

—a power that allows characters to inflict a Stunned effect on a target without actually doing any STUN or BODY damage

Thats any attack bought with a limitation 'can only stun a target, not do any lasting damage.'

If the goal is to achieve a stun effect within active point limits that normally don’t let a combatant achieve that result easily..well, the GM can either let is slide with an exception, rather than have to disallow a power achieving this powerful combat effect within set AP limits. That’s my feel.

—a power that instantly Knocks Out a target without any physical effects like Knockback or injury (for, e.g., sleep spells)

sounds like an FX for many attack powers, or even a mind control.


—a HTH Deflection that does for HTH attacks what Missile Deflection does for Ranged attacks

Ok, I'm not getting this one. That sounds like buying lots of levels in the block maneuver to me, or dodge.

—a personal Defense Power that provides protection like a Force Wall does

Force wall, self only....

—an Invulnerability power

eww. Invulnerability. A very subjective term. 'Nuff said.

[Andrew Cermak]

Ok, I'm not getting this one. That sounds like buying lots of levels in the block maneuver to me, or dodge.


I think it's building the Reflection part that's an issue.

[CourtFool]

Q: Should we change the term “Power”?

Yes, since we are going to roll Characteristics, Perks, Powers, Skills and Talents into one beast. Good luck with a name.

Q: Should we consider renaming some of the Powers?

Yes. They are going to have to be far more generic. Attack. Defense. Movement. Alter.

Q: Should we consider adding some new Powers?

Yes and no. You will have to add some new effects for your Characteristics/Perks/Powers/Skills/Talents thingie.

Q: Should we collapse the Powers down to a very small number and “create” the other effects with Advantages and Limitations?

Are you even listening to me? :p

[Enforcer84]

Changing the names seems unnecessary; and changing them simply so "Heroic" players are mollified is silly. Heroic Players came late in the game, quit yer whinin'. :p
But I generally use HERO for Supers so I could be wrong

[James Gillen]

Q: Should we change the term “Power”?

NO... I mean, yes, HERO is more than just Champions, but which characters are most likely to use these abilities? Supers. What do supercharacters call their abilities? Powers!

There really isn't a more appropriate name given that the abilities in other genres are too genre-restricted or applicable only to certain categories (e.g. 'Weird Talents' in Pulp are largely Psychic/Mental Powers).


Q: Should we consider renaming some of the Powers?

Steve’s Thoughts: Arguably some of the Powers still have names that are a bit too “comic book-y,”

Again, I don't see a problem with that, or at least one that isn't a bigger problem than the 'solution.'

Here are some examples that occur to me:

Current Name —> Possible Change
Armor —> Defense, Passive
Desolidification —> Intangibiliity
Ego Attack —> Mental Attack
Energy Blast —> Normal Attack, Ranged (or possibly “Blast”)
Entangle —> Restrain
Force Field —> Defense, Active
Force Wall —> Wall (or maybe Barrier)
HA —> Normal Attack, HTH

And perhaps all the continuing-effect Mental Powers should have more “generic” names, too, but I think that can slide given that they are, in fact, Mental/Psionic 99% of the time. ;)

Honestly, though — I’m not sure making these changes gains us much of anything. They’re definitely more generic and less superhero-y, but also kind of flavorless. I’m not sure it’s worth upsetting the apple cart. The only one I’m strongly sold on so far is Ego Attack —> Mental Attack.

I like "Ranged Attack" for generic EB, "Restrain(t)" for Entangle and Mental Attack for EGO Attack. I also propose that Dirty Infighting be renamed "Make Somebody Stop Living With Your Fist" and Kung Fu be renamed "That Psycho Bruce Lee $#!t" :D


Q: Should we consider adding some new Powers?

Steve’s Thoughts: There’s certainly no shortage of candidates for new Powers that have been suggested over the years. In my HEROglyphs columns I described the following:

Probability Alteration (DH #4, allows character to alter probabilities affecting him or others)
Object Creation DH #7, allows creation of simple objects)
Activate (DH #14, allows character to activate devices/machines at range)
Automaton Powers (DH #44, Automaton Powers for all character types)

Of these, I think the one that definitely deserves serious consideration is Activate. The contortions I had to go through to build abilities to activate devices in the USPD tell me that we need some standard, easy-to-use rule for that effect.

Of these, the one I most like is Automaton Powers, given there are some cases where a non-Automaton shouldn't have Hit Locations (assuming the game in question uses those rules).



Beyond those, other suggestions I have heard include:


—a power that allows characters to suffocate targets
—a power that allows characters to inflict a Stunned effect on a target without actually doing any STUN or BODY damage
—a power that instantly Knocks Out a target without any physical effects like Knockback or injury (for, e.g., sleep spells)

These would be more appropriate if there was a D&D/D20-like "all or nothing" saving throw mechanic; i.e. the character makes this roll or suffers the effect. It's something that HERO is missing, but on the other hand this comes close to violating the 'no absolutes' principle.


—a HTH Deflection that does for HTH attacks what Missile Deflection does for Ranged attacks

I think this is what's called "Block." ;) Or would this be with a "Ranged" Advantage like standard Missile Deflect?


—a personal Defense Power that provides protection like a Force Wall does

We're already simulating this with No Range on FW.


—an Invulnerability power

This falls under the 'no absolutes' guideline.


Q: Should we collapse the Powers down to a very small number and “create” the other effects with Advantages and Limitations?

Steve’s Thoughts: As early as the 4th Edition design process it was suggested that the number of Powers be boiled down to four — Attack, Defend, Move, Sense — and that all the different Power effects be created from them with Power Modifiers. I don’t think the idea had any more merit then than it does now, and have no intention of implementing it (unless, as usual, someone were to come up with an utterly brilliant argument in its favor). I think this would make the HERO System even harder to learn and create far more problems than it might solve.

"HERO System is as complex as it is because it needs that level of complexity to get the hell out of your way."
-Darren Watts :thumbup:

[Enforcer84]

I'll say that I've never gotten the "No Absolutes" thingy. I mean isn't an NND an Absolute? Either you have the Defense and it doesn't work or you don't and it does?

So why not a similar defense: Immunity to SFX; either the attack is fire or it isn't.

And I don't think the rest of the Hero Mechanics would die from it.

[Comic]

Q: Should we change the term “Power”?
Disambiguation is best. Saying what you mean is best. 'Power' is neither.

You can now have an ambiguously X-powered Power; many Powers can be skillful use of minimal power, or of an opponent's power, or are merely absences of anything at all.

We have a word, 'Power', that is both ambiguous and used to mean things it, in common parlance, doesn't.

The sense you seem to be looking for is 'Ability'. And, by coincidence, it's my favorite candidate. Less awkward than 'Capacity', 'Means', 'Aptitude', 'Attribute', 'Characteristic', 'Potential', 'Prowess', or 'Faculty', it's Able to do the job.

A Variable Ability Pool, for example, more directly states what that framework does. Advantaged and Limited Abilities both make more sense than Advantaged or Limited Powers.

On the whole, I'd prefer a shorter, pithier word, but none seem to fit, and there's a workaround for that issue. 'Ab' is a great short form, and within the game context would be clear and handy.

As a bonus, you can have Able Lists, to list who on your roster is able to fill a needed role, because of their Abilities.
Q: Should we consider renaming some of the Powers?
..
Current Name —> Possible Change
Armor —> Defense, Passive
Desolidification —> Intangibiliity
Ego Attack —> Mental Attack
Energy Blast —> Normal Attack, Ranged (or possibly “Blast”)
Entangle —> Restrain
Force Field —> Defense, Active
Force Wall —> Wall (or maybe Barrier)
HA —> Normal Attack, HTH

There are clear advantages to kicking 'Armor' off the list of current names; it's misleading and obfuscatory.

For the same reason, the suggested 'Defense, Passive/Active' is not great. For one, there's already Physical/Energy Defense (nonresistant). If you're going to reuse the word as proposed, there appears to be a major overhaul of Resistance needed to go with it. (Not saying there isn't.)

Also, Defense is both a category word, and the name of all abilities within that category? It introduces more opportunities for confusion.

'Fortification' (long), 'Aegis' (yuck), 'Fortitude' (meh), all not great. 'Buffer' has potential, but.. seems weak and generic. Still, a Physical Buffer or Energy Buffer.. not impressive. 'Toughness'.. also not fond of. I am fond of 'Proof'; it's short, simple, works well in compound terms: 'Energy Proof', 'Killing Proof', 'Normal Proof'... and maybe needs a better sales pitch.

I'm also not fond of the 'Passive/Active' part. Latent, Innate, or simply Persistent for Passive are all better, in that they don't assume something about the ability that is not required. Unless that's another planned overhaul.
.. but also kind of flavorless.
Which we'd also want to avoid.
Q: Should we consider adding some new Powers?
Yes, up to where you say:
—a power that allows characters to suffocate targets
This doesn't add anything, IMO. There are already useful drowning rules, and rules for suffocating based on the drowning rules and consistent with them; it's artificial to add a new layer of complication by putting in a power that specifically does this. Would it mean that you can't suffocate someone unless you've bought the power? Is NND such a bad way to simulate a combat-effective suffocation effect, where needed? Suffocation by drowning rules takes a long, long time for most characters -- as it should -- so adding a long, slow power to specifically do this that makes combat more cumbersome to run isn't an advantage, to my mind, when there's already 'suffocation' attacks as NNDs, which don't do this.
—a power that allows characters to inflict a Stunned effect on a target without actually doing any STUN or BODY damage
At best, this deserves a footnote in Transformation about how to build Transformation -> STUNNED, no? I hate to put everything into the Transformation bucket, but this is one of those places it fits, to my mind.
—a power that instantly Knocks Out a target without any physical effects like Knockback or injury (for, e.g., sleep spells)
Sure.. why isn't this Dispel Stun?
—a HTH Deflection that does for HTH attacks what Missile Deflection does for Ranged attacks
Long overdue. The ability to redirect HTH attacks at adjacent attackers is needed, and there are times when 'Block' isn't really what the defender is doing. Alternately, why bother to distinguish HTH from Ranged for Deflection, at all? Simply clarify some rules about interactions of attacks with Deflection.
—a personal Defense Power that provides protection like a Force Wall does
I'm uncomfortable about game balance for this, and believe giving a set of examples of how to build strong force fields with damage reduction, or a limitation like 'Breaking Point' on force fields would work just as well. (E.G. a 40/40 FF, if damage gets past it in some ratio/level/period of time it has a chance of failing/freezing up/knocking out the user.)
—an Invulnerability powerI'm uncomfortable about game balance for this, and believe giving examples of how to build strong Proof abilities with damage reduction limited to certain special effects would work just as well.
Q: Should we collapse the Powers down to a very small number and “create” the other effects with Advantages and Limitations?
What an interesting thought exercise. It should definitely be done, included as an Appendix, and never referred to again. As an Appendix, it could help people trying to wrestle with first principles of the game mechanics get a handle on what the designers were thinking, without becoming an impediment to clear understanding, since from such a framework, one could come up with countless equally valid variations..

So sure, do it. But still do the real thing, too.

And thank you for providing this forum for contribution.

[Enforcer84]

Really? Rename everything so Spy guy doesn't feel like Batman?
I can't believe this is an issue.

[Killer Shrike]

Q: Should we change the term “Power”?

Steve’s Thoughts: The use of “Power” as a term for a game element is confusing, since it’s not the same thing as a power, and because Powers can be used to create abilities that people don’t think of as “powers.” It’s a relic of the HERO System’s roots in the Comic Book Superhero genre.

Yes. Names are important. They convey information both in connotation and denotation -- what people think they mean as well as what they technically mean. Whether you intend them to or not the way something is named effects how it is received and even how it is thought about.

Power is a word that conveys a meaning that doesn't match what "Powers" actually are in the HERO System; it only covers a narrow subset of possible things doable with them.

The "Power" rules can be used to design all sorts of abilities, items, even things such as traps, natural hazards, and other externalized effects. Basically the "Power" rules are a metalanguage with which to describe "Game Effects". In fact, Effects would be an accurate, even ideal, name, but unfortunately it collides with "Special Effects" and could be confusing but we already use the idea of a base effect.

Phenomenon is a broad label that could encompass all the things doable with the "Powers" rules -- any occurrence that is (theoretically) observable is a phenomenon. "The universe is a phenomenon, as is every particle of matter within it; that which is non-phenomenal does not exist because it is noumenon." That pretty much covers a six-shooter, a sword, a spell, a super-power, or a super nova. Some folks might find Phenomenon difficult to spell, but it covers the concept.

So, my personal preference for a more generic and broad label would be, in order: Effects, Game Effects (vs Special Effects), Phenomena, Abilities.


The various actual base powers with SFX specific / comic-booky names should all be genericized IMO as well.


I plan to respond to the other items but its pushing 2am and I've still got work to do for tomorrow so it will have to wait :(

[Acid_Crash]

I don't know why Force Field and Force Wall are two seperate powers to begin with. To me, a Force Field IS a Force Wall, only one is more visible than the other.

Intangibility is a great name.
Keep Armor, rename it Body Armor or Innate Armor... but then again, why not just a power called Physical Defense and have a FX for it called Armor or body armor.

I'd say that there are already enough attack type powers, it's already kind of confusing when you have HtH attacks, melee, then ranged, KillingHtH melee and ranged, and Energy Blast. You already have HtH damage from your Strength, and I've always been confused if this Power HtH damage adds to your Strength HtH damage or supplants.

I'm more in favor of having a power like Normal Damage, then define it as Melee, Ranged, or Energy Blast, and have examples... and something similar for Killing Damage, Melee, Ranged, or Energy Blast. But not have each being its own power.

Heck, just have a power that is called Damage Bonus or Damage... for every 5 pts it does 1d6 Normal damage, or for every 15 points it does 1d6 Killing damage. At it's base this is fairly easy, and when purchased the person defines it as they want, either Normal or Killing. For an additional 10 pts the person can switch the attack between either Normal or Killing damage, or some kind of Power pption like that.

If you label it Normal or Killing it does physical, if you label it Energy, it does energy damage, and add in Mental damage for a mental attack, and it does mental damage.

No real reason to have so many different damage powers. This would be for those powers that are obviously used to directly inflict damage upon someone else in some way.

I am in favor of powers that cause different effects, like knockdown, stun, knockout, sickness, scared, etc... but you'd have to just create what those effects do in the game...

Being sick causes you to suffer a +2 penalty to your dice checks... knockout power could have you make an opposed check vs. the power, if you fail you get knocked out... scared could be an opposed Ego roll vs. the power, if you fail you are penalized something and can only make half actions... all these are viable options that don't have to be entirely based on doing damage to cause these effects.

As the system stands now, the way I understand it, if you want a power that causes a person to be 'stunned' then you have to have a power that does enough stun damage in a single turn to be effective... instead have a power effect called Stunning = causes the person to lose his next action, can only move at half speed, loses half CV, or whatever it is, and it doesn't have to do any damage at all. This power can be resisted by the targets Body or Con characteristic, modified by the number of points put into the power. Let's say it costs 10 pts per +1 penalty to the Stunning check, with a range of 2m per 10 pts... all hypotheticals of course... so if somebody spent 30 pts, that's a +3 penalty to his Con check, make an attack roll to hit. If it, target makes Con check, and if he fails, he's STUNNED. I don't know if the current rules have something as simple as this, but it should.

[Xotl]

Q: Should we consider renaming some of the Powers?

Steve’s Thoughts: Arguably some of the Powers still have names that are a bit too “comic book-y,” that suggest certain special effects, or that use strained language. Here are some examples that occur to me:

Current Name —> Possible Change
Desolidification —> Intangibiliity
Ego Attack —> Mental Attack
Energy Blast —> Normal Attack, Ranged (or possibly “Blast”)


In the very important interest of making the system more intuitive to new players, I'm in favour of these three. I've taught a lot of players over the years, and these changes would really have helped. None of these changes raise compatibility issues either.

Intangibility, in addition to what you mentioned, has the benefit of being an actual word. Mental Attack is much more easily understood.

Energy Blast is the most important one: it covers all sorts of attacks that have nothing to do with Energy in SFX terms, and most importantly doesn't even necessarily apply to ED. As such it tends to sound silly at best and be outright confusing at worst; try telling the new guy about his non-Energy Energy Blast vs. PD. I don't care what you call it, but help the game gain new players and go with any name that removes "Energy" from the title.

These changes hurt nothing and help things out, which is the best criteria I can think of.

[Andrew Byers]

There are a few effects that IMO, Hero doesn't do very well currently. The ones that come to mind include possession, astral projection, and the ability to stop time. Sure, we've all found ways to simulate these, but the solutions are inelegant. And Hero should be, if anything, elegant. They are all effects that I would really like to see 6th edition handle a bit better than is currently the case.

[nexus]

New Powers I'd like to see

possession
Astral Projection (maybe with a more generic name)
"Wish" Using EDM never sat well with me.

Time Stop (The Speed Zone) is sort of kludgy but it works well enough for me that I could take or leave seeing it as a separate power.

[yamamura]

New Powers I'd like to see

possession
Astral Projection (maybe with a more generic name)


also and this is a biggie, We need a possesion power, a your body disapears and is in the other person, probably with a -1/2 lim for personality switch

Ditto on both of these.

[Balok]

It seems to me that a place to look for new powers would be at the ways people bend Transform until it screams for mercy...

[steamteck]

keep most of the names as they are. Powers is a better description than abilities to me. Mental attack is fine. ranged attack is just fine. Defense, passive and defense ,active sounds like GURPS and sounds unexciting and bland..
A possession power might be useful. Everything else I can already do just fine unless you mean absolute invulnerability which I don't want in HERO. .

[Andrew Cermak]

We're already simulating this with No Range on FW.


And it's very clunky. You shouldn't have to define the area on an innate defense. You shouldn't need Indirect attacks to attack out of an innate defense. And an innate defense shouldn't "go down" when you take damage.

[DrFaust]

It seems to me that a place to look for new powers would be at the ways people bend Transform until it screams for mercy...

Like a proper unlocking spell.

[Hugh Neilson]

Q: Should we change the term “Power”?

Steve’s Thoughts: The use of “Power” as a term for a game element is confusing, since it’s not the same thing as a power, and because Powers can be used to create abilities that people don’t think of as “powers.” It’s a relic of the HERO System’s roots in the Comic Book Superhero genre.

However, despite my not liking it, and despite having discussed this issue with a lot of people over the years, I’ve yet to come up with anything better.

I suggest eliminating Talents in favour of making these more example Powers. If we did this, the term "Talents" becomes free for use in the broader context and could replace "Powers" as a more genre-neutral option.

- "Powers" are talents used as superpowers.
- "SuperSkills" are talents used to simulate high skill levels
- "Psionics" are talents used as mental abilities
- "Spells" are talents used as magic spells

Q: Should we consider renaming some of the Powers?

Steve’s Thoughts: Arguably some of the Powers still have names that are a bit too “comic book-y,” that suggest certain special effects, or that use strained language. Here are some examples that occur to me:

Current Name —> Possible Change
Armor —> Defense, Passive
Desolidification —> Intangibiliity
Ego Attack —> Mental Attack
Energy Blast —> Normal Attack, Ranged (or possibly “Blast”)
Entangle —> Restrain
Force Field —> Defense, Active
Force Wall —> Wall (or maybe Barrier)
HA —> Normal Attack, HTH

Mixed bag. I don't like "defense, passive" or "defense, active". I see no difference between "Desolid" and "intangible". Most of the rest I agree with. I see no reason to retain Armor or Force Field at all. They're just defenses with damage resistance, and costs END for FF. they would be better as example powers showing how Characteristics can become powers.

Q: Should we consider adding some new Powers?

Steve’s Thoughts: There’s certainly no shortage of candidates for new Powers that have been suggested over the years. In my HEROglyphs columns I described the following:

Probability Alteration (DH #4, allows character to alter probabilities affecting him or others)
Object Creation DH #7, allows creation of simple objects)
Activate (DH #14, allows character to activate devices/machines at range)
Automaton Powers (DH #44, Automaton Powers for all character types)

Of these, I think the one that definitely deserves serious consideration is Activate. The contortions I had to go through to build abilities to activate devices in the USPD tell me that we need some standard, easy-to-use rule for that effect.

Steve, that should be the benchmark for all new rules of any stripe - if it's hard to do now, consider an ability to make it easier. I'd like to see automaton powers shifted into the mainstream, even with Stop Signs to clarify they may be unbalancing. I hate the concept of powers only NPC's can use.

Beyond those, other suggestions I have heard include:

—making Succor a distinct Power
—a power that allows characters to suffocate targets

I like both of these.

—a power that allows characters to inflict a Stunned effect on a target without actually doing any STUN or BODY damage
—a power that instantly Knocks Out a target without any physical effects like Knockback or injury (for, e.g., sleep spells)

I dislike these. Present sample powers that do this. A power that Stuns without damage would logically be cheaper than one that can KO, and a low AP ability to STUN would be devestating. One character buys it so targets have no DCV for his teammates. NND, STUN Suppress, Stun Drain and Ego Attack work fine for KOing targets without knockback or injury. Yes, it's expensive to KO someone in one shot. It should be.

—a HTH Deflection that does for HTH attacks what Missile Deflection does for Ranged attacks

Absolutely. I favour making Missile Deflect and this HTH approach adders purchased to the Block mechanic.

—a personal Defense Power that provides protection like a Force Wall does
—an Invulnerability power

The first makes sense to me. It also creates a scalable Invulnerability power. However, I think an Invulnerability power (perhaps based on 100% Damage Reduction one step up from 75%) would be useful.

I concur with your comments on adding new powers generallly.

Q: Should we collapse the Powers down to a very small number and “create” the other effects with Advantages and Limitations?

No because it is counterintuitive, exactly as you note.

[Killer Shrike]

Q: Should we collapse the Powers down to a very small number and “create” the other effects with Advantages and Limitations?

Steve’s Thoughts: As early as the 4th Edition design process it was suggested that the number of Powers be boiled down to four — Attack, Defend, Move, Sense — and that all the different Power effects be created from them with Power Modifiers. I don’t think the idea had any more merit then than it does now, and have no intention of implementing it (unless, as usual, someone were to come up with an utterly brilliant argument in its favor). I think this would make the HERO System even harder to learn and create far more problems than it might solve.

Q: Should we consider renaming some of the Powers?

Steve’s Thoughts: Arguably some of the Powers still have names that are a bit too “comic book-y,” that suggest certain special effects, or that use strained language. Here are some examples that occur to me:

Current Name —> Possible Change
Armor —> Defense, Passive
Desolidification —> Intangibiliity
Ego Attack —> Mental Attack
Energy Blast —> Normal Attack, Ranged (or possibly “Blast”)
Entangle —> Restrain
Force Field —> Defense, Active
Force Wall —> Wall (or maybe Barrier)
HA —> Normal Attack, HTH

And perhaps all the continuing-effect Mental Powers should have more “generic” names, too, but I think that can slide given that they are, in fact, Mental/Psionic 99% of the time. ;)

Honestly, though — I’m not sure making these changes gains us much of anything. They’re definitely more generic and less superhero-y, but also kind of flavorless. I’m not sure it’s worth upsetting the apple cart. The only one I’m strongly sold on so far is Ego Attack —> Mental Attack.


Tackling these two together. I think the powers should definitely be coalesced into a small collection of base effects from which all existing base effects can be expressed; though four doesnt quite cover it. If I were to collapse the base powers down, it would mirror the current Power Categories very closely, with minor variations. From the hip:

Mitigate: the negation of hostile effects. Every point of Mitigation costs 1 point and is bought specifically against either an Inflict or a Modify (see below).

Mitigate is Constant, costs END, is visible and is not persistent by default. To make a Mitigate effect 0 END and / or Persistent is handled by applying the applicable advantages. If both are taken, the effect is assumed to be not visible as well as a freebie (like it currently is on Armor).

The idea of Resistant vs Non-Resistant damage is gotten rid of. Attacks are now bought to do BODY or not do BODY specifically (see Inflict below), and mitigation is bought to protect vs BODY / STUN or not.

FF and Armor are both coverable in obvious ways with this. Force Wall is handled as a Create (see below).

Damage Reduction is done away with entirely as a base effect. While it is a great ability, its inherently not balanced in a scaled game like the HERO System; in low powered games its not worth its points, in high powered games it becomes a staple of many characters due to a combination of its fixed cost and its huge effect on high dice of effect. It also, in my frequent experience, slows the game down to administer; most noticeably 25% and 75% versions. It is still described in a sidebar and noted as permissible as a GM's Option for backwards compatibility and those who prefer to continue using it.

Inflict: the causing of damage (meaning non-fading / must be healed) to characteristics. Any characteristic. The base effect is not ranged and does not add STR or anything else. It costs 5 points x the cost of the targeted characteristic per 1d6 of damage inflicted. Effects can be stacked, and can be stacked in disproportional ratios. Half dies cost 1/2 points, and +1 effect costs 1/3 points.

Thus (based upon the current costs of characteristics for example purposes) 1d6 of Inflict vs DEX costs 15 points, while 1d6 of Inflict vs STR costs 5 points, and 1d6 of Inflict vs STUN and BODY costs 15 points, and 2d6 of Inflict vs BODY + 1d6 of Inflict vs STUN can be bought and stacked into a single attack for 25 points and so on.

Range is an Adder -- it costs 2 points per d6. Add (some Characteristic) is also an Adder; it costs 3 point per d6. Many of the current attack effecting Advantages are also Adders with a flat cost; roughly speaking each +1/4 of current Advantage is converted into a +1 point per d6 Adder. (Switching from Advantages to Adders wherever possible both makes the math easier and the game scale better, IMO.)

Killing vs Normal Damage is gotten rid of as a base concept; since a power is designed to inflict vs BODY or not specifically and in what increment it becomes a largely meaningless distinction.

Modify: the causing of temporary alterations (including nullification) of other effects. The current set of Adjustment effects and Dispel all fall into this base power.

Like Inflict, Modify is bought vs a specific characteristic or base effect. Each 1d6 of Modify costs 3 points x the base cost of a targeted characteristic or x1 for an effect and is Instant in effect. The duration of its effect is moved up the time chart as an Adder costing +1 point per step up the time chart starting at Phase for +1, Turn for +2, and so on. Modify vs various things can be bought together and stacked if desired. Modify can be bought in half dies at 1/2 cost and +1 effect for 1/3 cost.

Modify is not Ranged. Range is an Adder -- it costs 2 points per d6.

Modify normally does not cost END; however costing END is a -1 Subtracter on each d6.

Modify is normally incremental in effect; however if it requires an all or nothing effect (roll must match or exceed total points of target), its a -2 Subtracter on each d6.

Modify, like all effects, always costs a minimum of 1 point per d6.

Mixing extended time and END costing, an effect is essentially Constant up to the duration of the effect or until the character can no longer pay END, whichever is less.

Thus an effect similar to a Dispel costs 3 points per d6 of ranged END costing effect and is Instant in nature. It can be bought to have an effect greater than Instant, in which case it begins to act more like Suppress with a time limit.

An Aid like ability vs an effect would cost 5 points per d6 to last 1 TURN, not costing END and not Ranged.

Etc etc.

Move Simple mechanic, 1 point per 1 unit of measurement -- whatever that might end up being. Assumed turn mode, END cost, no contact with surface. No Turn mode = +1 point per unit, No END cost = +2 point per unit, Contact w/ surface = -1 point per unit, gliding behavior -1 point per unit, swinging behavior -1 point per unit...dammit, gotta go. Duty calls...more later

[Chris Goodwin]

Q: Should we change the term “Power”?

Steve’s Thoughts: The use of “Power” as a term for a game element is confusing, since it’s not the same thing as a power, and because Powers can be used to create abilities that people don’t think of as “powers.” It’s a relic of the HERO System’s roots in the Comic Book Superhero genre.

However, despite my not liking it, and despite having discussed this issue with a lot of people over the years, I’ve yet to come up with anything better.

My two cents: How about the word superpower to represent the things a superhero buys? Small-s. So you have superpowers, spells, psychic abilities, equipment, etc., all built with Powers.

[eternal_sage]

we need a "sleep" power, because it has a lot of HEROic and SuperHEROic uses (Joker has sleep gas, bards have sleep spells, ninjas have sleep dust, etc). possession might be cool, but i think its easily managed by a combo of other powers. same with most of the other "new" powers.

if you wanna change names, no skin off my back. i'll use them the same way, and still not care what they are called :)

oh, and i like Killer Shrike's concepts of reducing powers into a smaller set of catagories (although more than 4)

[Edsel]

I printed off all of Steve's original posts in all of the 6th Edition threads and spent hours reading them last night and thinking. It is amazing how little I came up with to respond with though. However the opinions in this post are based only on what Steve has posted in message #1 of this thread, I haven't been influenced by what others have posted subsequently since I haven't read them yet. I will try to keep my comments brief since there is a hellava lot to read in these discussions.

Q: Should we change the term “Power”?
I suppose you could call them "Gifts" if you wan a more generic term.

Q: Should we consider renaming some of the Powers?

Current Name —> Possible Change
Energy Blast —> Blast
Force Wall —> Barrier
Ego Attack —> Mental Attack
I like the changes above. I think the other changes make it sound too bland.

Q: Should we consider adding some new Powers?

Automaton Powers (DH #44, Automaton Powers for all character types)
This is the only one I feel strongly enough to comment on. I want Automation Powers available to all characters. This would make a lot of sense for Cyborgs and such. In our games we allow this already. In Hero Designer we just buy them as Custom Powers since the rules won't normally allow it.

Q: Should we collapse the Powers down to a very small number and “create” the other effects with Advantages and Limitations?
No. I like the current feel of the multiple power set-up.

[lazarus]

The only power consolidation I'm a fan of is EB/RKA/HKA/HA into one power: Attack. This would have options for making it ranged and/or killing. All other modifiers on those powers are the same, and they seem balanced that way.

One possibility I'd like to suggest is to incorporate a sort of mini-USPD into the characters book. Like, a chapter either before or after the Powers mechanics are described listing the various "iconic" or common powers someone would want to do, and how to build them (a sort of tutorial, if you will, while also having pre-built and pre-pointed powers list).

I'm not sure where this would go: ideally, though, I would like to see everything folded under the "Powers" framework. I know we have the option of buying Characteristics as Powers, but it sort of feels klunky to me to have it referred to in two different spots.

Laz - make the hard easy, and the impossible possible!

[BobGreenwade]

I have some of my own specific thoughts on this topic, but for now I'll just answer questions posted.

Q: Should we change the term “Power”?I would say no. The term "Power" has a long enough history to it that I think it can survive.

If you do change it, I'd suggest "Ability."Q: Should we consider renaming some of the Powers?

Steve’s Thoughts: Arguably some of the Powers still have names that are a bit too “comic book-y,” that suggest certain special effects, or that use strained language. Here are some examples that occur to me:

Current Name —> Possible Change
Armor —> Defense, Passive
Desolidification —> Intangibiliity
Ego Attack —> Mental Attack
Energy Blast —> Normal Attack, Ranged (or possibly “Blast”)
Entangle —> Restrain
Force Field —> Defense, Active
Force Wall —> Wall (or maybe Barrier)
HA —> Normal Attack, HTH

And perhaps all the continuing-effect Mental Powers should have more “generic” names, too, but I think that can slide given that they are, in fact, Mental/Psionic 99% of the time. ;)

Honestly, though — I’m not sure making these changes gains us much of anything. They’re definitely more generic and less superhero-y, but also kind of flavorless. I’m not sure it’s worth upsetting the apple cart. The only one I’m strongly sold on so far is Ego Attack —> Mental Attack.I'm almost completely with you here. I'd go with changing Desolidification to Intangibility, but the rest can stay as is.Q: Should we consider adding some new Powers?

Steve’s Thoughts: There’s certainly no shortage of candidates for new Powers that have been suggested over the years. In my HEROglyphs columns I described the following:

Probability Alteration (DH #4, allows character to alter probabilities affecting him or others)
Object Creation DH #7, allows creation of simple objects)
Activate (DH #14, allows character to activate devices/machines at range)
Automaton Powers (DH #44, Automaton Powers for all character types)

Of these, I think the one that definitely deserves serious consideration is Activate. The contortions I had to go through to build abilities to activate devices in the USPD tell me that we need some standard, easy-to-use rule for that effect.

Beyond those, other suggestions I have heard include:

—making Succor a distinct Power
—a power that allows characters to suffocate targets
—a power that allows characters to inflict a Stunned effect on a target without actually doing any STUN or BODY damage
—a power that instantly Knocks Out a target without any physical effects like Knockback or injury (for, e.g., sleep spells)
—a HTH Deflection that does for HTH attacks what Missile Deflection does for Ranged attacks
—a personal Defense Power that provides protection like a Force Wall does
—an Invulnerability powerOf the new Powers from DH, I'm unsure about Probability Alteration, but I'd add the others. In fact, I feel fairly strongly about the Automaton Powers part -- there are alraedy published characters using this rule.

For the rest, I also was surprised that Succor wasn't a distinct Power in 5th Ed; it should have been, and should be for 6th. It has plenty of differences to make it distinct from Aid. Suffocation seems like it'd be a good candidate for a separate Power. The Stunning and Knock Out effects should probably be buildable from Energy Blast, Mind Control, or some other Power. HTH Deflection could just become a factor in Missile Deflection (call it just Deflection). Personal Defense could just be built off Force Wall, and Invulnerability off Damage Reduction.Q: Should we collapse the Powers down to a very small number and “create” the other effects with Advantages and Limitations?

Steve’s Thoughts: As early as the 4th Edition design process it was suggested that the number of Powers be boiled down to four — Attack, Defend, Move, Sense — and that all the different Power effects be created from them with Power Modifiers. I don’t think the idea had any more merit then than it does now, and have no intention of implementing it (unless, as usual, someone were to come up with an utterly brilliant argument in its favor). I think this would make the HERO System even harder to learn and create far more problems than it might solve.I agree with you. An appendix showing how something like this could be done might be beneficial (as long as it wasn't more than a few pages long), but this sort of wholesale change really wouldn't be.

[Andrew Cermak]

Like a proper unlocking spell.

Sounds like a possible application of the Activate power.

[Andrew Byers]

As another general comment, I would really like to see the applications for Transform and Extra-Dimensional Movement as work-arounds for difficult effects be sharply limited in the 6th edition (we need a good acronym for that -- SHE for Sixth Hero Edition?). Those two are kind of the default responses that many folks have for difficult to construct powers. It would be a vast improvement if the judicious addition of a couple new powers could cut down on wha I consider to be over-use of Transform and EDM.

[John Desmarais]

The problem I have with most of the suggestions I've ever heard for new powers is that they are usually things that can be accomplished with existing ones.


Beyond those, other suggestions I have heard include:

—making Succor a distinct Power
—a power that allows characters to suffocate targets
Already have one. Energy Blast, NND, defense Life Support

—a power that allows characters to inflict a Stunned effect on a target without actually doing any STUN or BODY damageNot difficult to do with existing powers, but kinds wordy: Energy Blast, NND, Standard Effect, enough dice to cover the highest expected CON in the game, limitation: damage only equal to target's CON+1?

Or, Mind Control.

—a power that instantly Knocks Out a target without any physical effects like Knockback or injury (for, e.g., sleep spells)Mind Control, one command, SLEEP

—a HTH Deflection that does for HTH attacks what Missile Deflection does for Ranged attacksIsn't this what blocking does?

—a personal Defense Power that provides protection like a Force Wall doesThis could be done with a modifier applied to Force Wall.

—an Invulnerability powerMaybe, but it would need some strict controls.

[Chris Goodwin]

The problem I have with most of the suggestions I've ever heard for new powers is that they are usually things that can be accomplished with existing ones.

(Suffocation)

Already have one. Energy Blast, NND, defense Life Support


That doesn't do what suffocation does in the rules. That does STUN damage to targets who don't have Life Support.

Suffocation prevents you from taking a Recovery, causes you to spend END, causes you to use STUN when you run out of END, and causes you to start taking BODY when you run out of STUN.

I think what Steve is going for: there are environmental conditions that don't necessarily have game effects associated with them, but should.

[buzz]

Q: Should we collapse the Powers down to a very small number and “create” the other effects with Advantages and Limitations?

Steve’s Thoughts: As early as the 4th Edition design process it was suggested that the number of Powers be boiled down to four — Attack, Defend, Move, Sense — and that all the different Power effects be created from them with Power Modifiers. I don’t think the idea had any more merit then than it does now, and have no intention of implementing it (unless, as usual, someone were to come up with an utterly brilliant argument in its favor). I think this would make the HERO System even harder to learn and create far more problems than it might solve.
I think that there more than a few powers that could be condensed (like most of the attack powers), but I'll grant you that boiling everything down to four is a bit extreme.

At the very least, I think that KAs could be simply made into Advantages, and that Armor/FF/Damage Reduction/Resistance could be all rolled into a single power.

Nonetheless, I'd vote for some reduction.

[ghost-angel]

I'm for all the name changes - Any name change that removes connotations of SFX from the Power itself I'm for.

I've run into too many people who think Energy Blast means "Vs Energy Defense" - even 20yr veteran players doing that (Why? HOW?). Attack, Ranged is perfect, tells you exactly what it is and does.

Same with all the other changes - they go more towards actually telling you what the Power DOES in a simple, concise and clear manner.

Though personally, I'm for smashing Armor and Force Field into one Power - calling it Resistant Defense and stating it's a 0END/Persistent Power and if you want a "force field" make it Visible, and it can Cost END at the discretion of the builder.

[Hugh Neilson]

That doesn't do what suffocation does in the rules. That does STUN damage to targets who don't have Life Support.

Suffocation prevents you from taking a Recovery, causes you to spend END, causes you to use STUN when you run out of END, and causes you to start taking BODY when you run out of STUN.

I think what Steve is going for: there are environmental conditions that don't necessarily have game effects associated with them, but should.

This is it exactly, to me. Sleep spell? NND or mental attack. Out of Stun? You're asleep. That's much closer to a Sleep spell than an NND can get to a "cut off air supply" ability

"You can't breathe; lose 21 STUN; recover them normally" doesn't seem remotely similar to the actual game effects of being unable to breathe. We should be able to simulate that fairly easily.

[Chris Goodwin]

Oh, something I just thought of.

I'd like to see all Powers be, effectively, Constant Powers. In other words, when you activate your Force Field, you have Force Field up as long as the Power is active. I'd like to see the same for, e.g. Energy Blast. When you activate your Energy Blast, you can throw Energy Blasts as long as your Power is active. It would have all of the problems of Constant Powers, though; you pay END every Phase it is active, plus END for every time you throw it. You can buy down either or both of those. If you go Stunned or Unconscious, your Energy Blast Power deactivates unless you've bought it Persistent.

While I'm on the subject of END Cost, I'd like to see a little more detail: make all Powers have END Cost to activate, END Cost to maintain, and END Cost to make use of; our hypothetical Energy Blast might cost 5 END to activate, 5 END per Phase to maintain, and 5 END for every time you throw Energy Blast. Perhaps activation and maintenance costs could be rolled together.

Oh, and, I'd like to see all Powers cost Endurance by default, and you buy them down from there. For consistency's sake, if nothing else. Alternately, make none of them cost Endurance by default, and allow Costs END as a Limitation.

[MorpheousXO]

Q: Should we change the term “Power”?

We could, but yeah, I can't honestly think of anything that's not already used (like ability).

Q: Should we consider renaming some of the Powers?
Lemme go through your list and see what I think.

Armor —> Defense, Passive
I like it, though it is a bit bland, but I think being bland would actually help people get the idea that you put your special effect on it. Then you don't worry about the general sfx of the name tainting the thought process.
Desolidification —> Intangibility
I don't see any need to change this, I don't think 'comic book' when you say desolidification.
Ego Attack —> Mental Attack
Most definitely go with this one!
Energy Blast —> Normal Attack, Ranged (or possibly “Blast”)
Like Armor, I like the blandness of Normal Attack, and it makes it mesh with Killing Attack... speaking of which, killing attack could be renamed lethal attack, but definitely not necessary.
Entangle —> Restrain
At first I don't think it needs a change, but then I think "entangle makes you think they're wrapped up" but this can also represent a mental stopping power, so I do actually think the change is warranted.
Force Field —> Defense, Active
Yes, let's do this one!
Force Wall —> Wall (or maybe Barrier)
I like Barrier... though you COULD call it Defense, Barrier.
HA —> Normal Attack, HTH
Oh yeah, like this change!

Honestly, though — I’m not sure making these changes gains us much of anything. They’re definitely more generic and less superhero-y, but also kind of flavorless. I’m not sure it’s worth upsetting the apple cart. The only one I’m strongly sold on so far is Ego Attack —> Mental Attack.
I think it gains more ease of understanding if you genericise the names when it comes to sfx. Long timers don't have a problem, but it definitely is an issue at first. This should also be done with martial arts (legsweep I'm looking at you!) but this technically isn't the right place.


Q: Should we consider adding some new Powers?
Oh yes, consider away!

Probability Alteration (DH #4, allows character to alter probabilities affecting him or others)
Err... that sounds interesting, and it definitely would fill a gap... I suppose... dang it, need to get DH!
Object Creation DH #7, allows creation of simple objects)
Oh yes, PLEASE!! I would like this much much more than using transform, and it's a bit more intuitive too, to my mind.
Activate (DH #14, allows character to activate devices/machines at range)
Sounds good.
Automaton Powers (DH #44, Automaton Powers for all character types)
Sounds neat.
—making Succor a distinct Power
Probably should, pretty much already is.
—a power that allows characters to suffocate targets
Would be nice and not as clunky as the current way.
—a power that allows characters to inflict a Stunned effect on a target without actually doing any STUN or BODY damage
I don't think this is as needed as you'd just buy an attack as "only to determine if stunned", maybe throw that lim in there for the sake of it being official.
—a power that instantly Knocks Out a target without any physical effects like Knockback or injury (for, e.g., sleep spells)
Well, this would have to be very regulated in my mind, no matter how much I want to be able to do this since it could easily be abused. In fact, it might end up just being another limited power somehow, or just Mental Attack.
—a HTH Deflection that does for HTH attacks what Missile Deflection does for Ranged attacks
Or a combat maneuver that does for Ranged attacks what block does for HTH attacks! Actually, a power would allow HTH to reflect... hmm... BOTH!!! Maybe... umm... ok, on the fence, I definitely think though that HTH reflection needs to be implemented somehow, and that hth and ranged blocking needs to be unified.
—a personal Defense Power that provides protection like a Force Wall does
Hmm... nah, just make a limitation/adder/advantage combination for Force Wall that does the same thing, or even an adder for Force Field/Defense, Active.
—an Invulnerability power
NO. Only way I'd say is if it were very very limited in it's usage, and got very expensive to make it not as limited.

Q: Should we collapse the Powers down to a very small number and “create” the other effects with Advantages and Limitations?
Heck no! :doi:

[MorpheousXO]

Disambiguation is best. Saying what you mean is best. 'Power' is neither.

You can now have an ambiguously X-powered Power; many Powers can be skillful use of minimal power, or of an opponent's power, or are merely absences of anything at all.

We have a word, 'Power', that is both ambiguous and used to mean things it, in common parlance, doesn't.

The sense you seem to be looking for is 'Ability'. And, by coincidence, it's my favorite candidate. Less awkward than 'Capacity', 'Means', 'Aptitude', 'Attribute', 'Characteristic', 'Potential', 'Prowess', or 'Faculty', it's Able to do the job.

A Variable Ability Pool, for example, more directly states what that framework does. Advantaged and Limited Abilities both make more sense than Advantaged or Limited Powers.

On the whole, I'd prefer a shorter, pithier word, but none seem to fit, and there's a workaround for that issue. 'Ab' is a great short form, and within the game context would be clear and handy.

As a bonus, you can have Able Lists, to list who on your roster is able to fill a needed role, because of their Abilities.

There are clear advantages to kicking 'Armor' off the list of current names; it's misleading and obfuscatory.

For the same reason, the suggested 'Defense, Passive/Active' is not great. For one, there's already Physical/Energy Defense (nonresistant). If you're going to reuse the word as proposed, there appears to be a major overhaul of Resistance needed to go with it. (Not saying there isn't.)

Also, Defense is both a category word, and the name of all abilities within that category? It introduces more opportunities for confusion.

'Fortification' (long), 'Aegis' (yuck), 'Fortitude' (meh), all not great. 'Buffer' has potential, but.. seems weak and generic. Still, a Physical Buffer or Energy Buffer.. not impressive. 'Toughness'.. also not fond of. I am fond of 'Proof'; it's short, simple, works well in compound terms: 'Energy Proof', 'Killing Proof', 'Normal Proof'... and maybe needs a better sales pitch.

I'm also not fond of the 'Passive/Active' part. Latent, Innate, or simply Persistent for Passive are all better, in that they don't assume something about the ability that is not required. Unless that's another planned overhaul.

Which we'd also want to avoid.

For some reason I was thinking Ability was already used somewhere in the system. Yes, ability is DEFINITELY a good word to replace Power with.

On the front of Energy/Physical Defense, you could call them Soak, which some gamers might be familiar with from other games, and being somewhat appropriate in that you are Soaking up the damage.

[MorpheousXO]

I see no reason to retain Armor or Force Field at all. They're just defenses with damage resistance, and costs END for FF. they would be better as example powers showing how Characteristics can become powers.

Hmm... yes, i like this, just get rid of them and have Energy Defense and Physical defense that you modify with advantages and adders, or other powers (Damage Resistance, which could be renamed Defense Resistance to denote it makes your Defenses resistant!).

[Paragon]

I'd like to make a general design philosophy suggestion. I'll give what I consider a couple examples of it that occur in 5e, but it has more implications than that, and I think is sound even if you don't agree with my specific examples.

Don't let system consistency interfere with purchase value.

What I mean by this is that Hero has been plagued a bit from the start with a tendency for things to sometimes cost too much (or too little) just because the most logical way to link the pieces together says it should. To some extent this is unavoidable, but I think it does some serious harm when its too well inculcated in the rules.

Examples:

1. Damage Shield. The 5e damage shield is as it is, far as I can tell, because it seemed logical that it needed to be a continuous power, and that it should pay something for its property of attacking potentially multiple times. However, the effect of this is a construct that ends up almost always being too expensive for anyone buying it for primarily conceptual reasons, and is of dubious value even for characters wrapped around it. The pieces put together in a way that just doesn't represent the final value over all.

2. Shapeshift. The 5e attempt to make Shapeshift compatible with other sensory powers wasn't fundamentally unsound; but because most of the others are much broader in application, and because sensory powers are built primarily off adders, a serious shapeshift ends up being prohibitively expensive for what is, in the end, usually a hyped-up disguise power. Another case where consistency with process didn't really look at whether the result seemed commensurate with the cost.

3. Energy-type specific defenses. This is complicated because of the frequency of occurence issues, but its still a problem. Basically, an attempt to not make generic limitations too generous made it such that buying things like a Force Field that only protects against radiation is prohibitively expensive. Frankly, in most campaigns, getting a -2 Limitation on such a construct wouldn't exactly make it overattractive; the 5e standard of -1/2 makes it almost an idiot's game.

I suspect the only way to address this is to suggest that most modifiers and other power philosophy constructs are contextual; and as such, some constructs aren't going to use the most obvious values to derive them. But I think it'd serve the system better.

[rjcurrie]

First off, I don't like "Ability" as a replacement for "Power". I've always liked "Ability" to be a generic way to refer to a Skill, Talent, Perk, or Power. Perhaps "Effect" would be a possible term. You would then build a Spell or Superpower from one or more effects.

[ajackson]

Current Name —> Possible Change

In many cases, there's no obvious advantage to changing it; the proposed variant isn't really less comic-booky than the replacement. A few specific notes:
Armor —> Defense, Passive
[/quote]
Or Toughness, or just discard the power and use PD/ED/damage resistance.

Ego Attack —> Mental Attack

Ego Attack has always been an ugly name.

Energy Blast —> Normal Attack, Ranged (or possibly “Blast”)
Go with Blast.

Force Field —> Defense, Active
Force Wall —> Wall (or maybe Barrier)
I like Barrier. As for Force Field, the problem is less the comic-book nature of the name than the fact that the name implies a special effect.

Q: Should we collapse the Powers down to a very small number and “create” the other effects with Advantages and Limitations?

Steve’s Thoughts: As early as the 4th Edition design process it was suggested that the number of Powers be boiled down to four — Attack, Defend, Move, Sense — and that all the different Power effects be created from them with Power Modifiers. I don’t think the idea had any more merit then than it does now, and have no intention of implementing it (unless, as usual, someone were to come up with an utterly brilliant argument in its favor). I think this would make the HERO System even harder to learn and create far more problems than it might solve.
In general I agree. However, there's something to be said for having two basic attack powers: Damage and Inflict. Damage causes damage (e.g. blast, mental blast, etc), Inflict applies a non-damage condition that weakens someone temporarily (Flash, Drain, Transform, Mental Illusions, Entangle, etc). Those powers can still be kept, but unifying them so they have a single underlying mechanic would clean things up. I'm inclined to use the same sort of targets as for mind control, but that's a secondary issue.

On another topic: a lot of power writeups really need to be simplified. Most powers should not require a paragraph of text. The big offenders here tend to be 1/4 advantages and limitations.

[James Gillen]

My two cents: How about the word superpower to represent the things a superhero buys? Small-s. So you have superpowers, spells, psychic abilities, equipment, etc., all built with Powers.

You mean... like we're doing now? ;)

jg

[James Gillen]

Don't let system consistency interfere with purchase value.

What I mean by this is that Hero has been plagued a bit from the start with a tendency for things to sometimes cost too much (or too little) just because the most logical way to link the pieces together says it should. To some extent this is unavoidable, but I think it does some serious harm when its too well inculcated in the rules.

Examples:

1. Damage Shield. The 5e damage shield is as it is, far as I can tell, because it seemed logical that it needed to be a continuous power, and that it should pay something for its property of attacking potentially multiple times. However, the effect of this is a construct that ends up almost always being too expensive for anyone buying it for primarily conceptual reasons, and is of dubious value even for characters wrapped around it. The pieces put together in a way that just doesn't represent the final value over all.

2. Shapeshift. The 5e attempt to make Shapeshift compatible with other sensory powers wasn't fundamentally unsound; but because most of the others are much broader in application, and because sensory powers are built primarily off adders, a serious shapeshift ends up being prohibitively expensive for what is, in the end, usually a hyped-up disguise power. Another case where consistency with process didn't really look at whether the result seemed commensurate with the cost.

:yes:

[Enforcer84]

I liked the powers Steve Came up with in his Digital Hero articles and would love to see them folded into the 'official' game.


Also, reading the above, I actually like Shapeshift as it is...I hated it at first, but now I've come to like it.



again, I don't know what that says about me. :)

[JmOz]

Adjustment Powers in general should at the base level effect one power based on F/X, 2 powers can remain a +1/2. 4 powers a +1. all +2. A limitation should be included as an option if you can only effect a limited effect (So Fire powers is +/- 0, A fire blast might be -1/2 and would be effective vs any fire blast style power built with RKA or EB, or something weird).

A note that some leeway should be given regarding the F/X of characteristics, while it would make sense that the leach could not steel Defender's Str from his armor, many F/X for characteristics could be considered. To use a marvel example, Draining Hulk, Thor, or the Thing, should be ok, draining Iron Man's armor, should not be ok.

Maybe just say that characteristics should normaly be considered a single effect. Yes this makes Drain slightly more powerful, but I don't think that much so, and it makes "more sense" at least to me

Could someone repost this rambling, illogical, error filled, post, into something more coherent...I would appreciate it

[Hugh Neilson]

Adjustment Powers in general should at the base level effect one power based on F/X, 2 powers can remain a +1/2. 4 powers a +1. all +2. A limitation should be included as an option if you can only effect a limited effect (So Fire powers is +/- 0, A fire blast might be -1/2 and would be effective vs any fire blast style power built with RKA or EB, or something weird). [\quote]

That reminds me. I would like to see "affects multiple abilities" segregated from "abilities affected can be varied". The cost of draining, say, STR and CON (or fire-based EB's and force fields) specifically should be less than the cost of Draining any two characteristics changed at the character's discretion (or fire powers).

[QUOTE=JmOz;1545157]A note that some leeway should be given regarding the F/X of characteristics, while it would make sense that the leach could not steel Defender's Str from his armor, many F/X for characteristics could be considered. To use a marvel example, Draining Hulk, Thor, or the Thing, should be ok, draining Iron Man's armor, should not be ok.

Yes and no. I agree with minor benefits for SFX. Is significant power defense a minor benefit? I'd rather see guidance that, if Iron Man thinks his STR should not be drained, he should buy power defense. If Leech's drains won't work on focused powers (or, more likely, if he needs flesh to flesh contact), he should get a limitation.

[Paragon]

Also, reading the above, I actually like Shapeshift as it is...I hated it at first, but now I've come to like it.





Do you like the way its structured, or how much it costs? I don't have anything intrinsically against the way its structured; its that the final costs seem, well, bluntly, ridiculous for what it does for you that I have an issue with. If it was built in a similar fashion, but where it used 5s and 3s where it uses 10s and 5s perhaps, I'd have far less to complain about.

Its the fact that all the sensory powers are built to a common metric, which means the only variable is base cost that creates the problem there. Adding a sense group to what your Shapeshift effects is simply not the same in value as doing so with your Images (and I'm not sure its the same with your Flash, your Darkness or your Invisibility either, though its muddier comparing those three). If they were constructed with the same pattern, but with adders of different value based on the base value of the effect (as they would be if they were Advantages instead) that creates the issue there.

But that's rather my point; sometimes I think its too easy to make things tidy at the expense of making them work right.

[arkibet]

I registered just so I could write this. I'd prefer Energy Blast to remain named Energy Blast. It was easy for me to understand that it's anything from an ice beam to a hot flame to a laser. It has character. I think it's the coolest name for what it is.

[Netzilla]

Q: Should we change the term “Power”?

I can't think of anything better to call it. Any of the alternatives I can think of carry just as many connotations as the term “Power”.

Q: Should we consider renaming some of the Powers?

I do think some should be renamed. However, I think the ones that should be renamed are those that strongly imply a certain special effect. Energy Blast, Armor & Force Field come to mind as the one's I've seen misinterpreted the most (EB & FF must be made of energy, Armor must be worn, etc). So, I think the list of what needs to be renamed is probably shorter than the list you have.

Q: Should we consider adding some new Powers?
Probability Alteration (DH #4, allows character to alter probabilities affecting him or others)

Haven't read the HEROglyphs in question, but I think Heroic Action Points would model this well.

Object Creation DH #7, allows creation of simple objects)

Couldn't this be a variation on Summon?

Activate (DH #14, allows character to activate devices/machines at range)

Ick. What special effects justifies this without being better tasked to an existing power:
* Flip a switch = TK
* Control a computer = Mind Control vs Computers or Computer Programming with Indirect

Automaton Powers (DH #44, Automaton Powers for all character types)

Some of these can be appropriate for certain character concepts. I've personally used Does Not Bleed for a character who could willfully close his arteries. Of course, it also required 0DCV concentration and cost END to use. I think at least some Automaton Powers should be moved to the general Powers list with appropriate Stop Sign markers.

—making Succor a distinct Power

Works fine as is, IMO.

—a power that allows characters to suffocate targets

I guess this means that it forces a character into the status of “Drowning” as opposed to using a Continuous NND/Drain construct. I could potentially see this. Seems like this could potentially be modifier on Entangle, Change Environment or Summon/Transform, but I'm not sure how complex that might get.

—a power that allows characters to inflict a Stunned effect on a target without actually doing any STUN or BODY damage

Seems easy enough with a limited EB: EB, Only to confer Stunned status (-2).

—a power that instantly Knocks Out a target without any physical effects like Knockback or injury (for, e.g., sleep spells)

Eh, this gets into the realm of Absolutes and I'm not sure I like it. I'd only be in favor of this if there were a relatively common way of resisting it (such as requiring a CON or EGO roll, but then we're creating a “Saving Throw” mechanic). I can see the need, but I'm not sure I'll like the results.

—a HTH Deflection that does for HTH attacks what Missile Deflection does for Ranged attacks

Isn't that Block? I know, you can't Reflect with a block. I suppose a power that allows you to re-direct a HtH attack could be useful. I think that if you do this, you just create a power called Deflection and have to pick a single type of attack that it effects (HtH, Ranged or Mental). Adding additional categories is a +1 Advantage.

—a personal Defense Power that provides protection like a Force Wall does

What's wrong with Force Wall, Self Only (-1/2).

—an Invulnerability power

100% Damage Reduction? Only if there is a reasonably common way of bypassing it (such as Desolid requiring you to name a common special effect that works). However, if you did this, I'd like to see “levels” applied to this Invulnerability that could be bypassed by an attack with the appropriate Advantage. For example, Level 1 Invulnerability to Fire can be defeated by a Fire-based EB that has the Irresistible Advantage at L1 or more.

Q: Should we collapse the Powers down to a very small number and “create” the other effects with Advantages and Limitations?

I can see a definite advantage to doing this and am somewhat in favor of it. My only concern is that newbies will see how the power is actually constructed and freak, thinking that's what they have to do to purchase this power. If you go this route, I think it should be handled like Talents and Super Skills are, where the write-up is at least partially hidden by a good description (perhaps even moving the mechanics into a different “Meta-Powers” section).

[ajackson]

Steve’s Thoughts: As early as the 4th Edition design process it was suggested that the number of Powers be boiled down to four — Attack, Defend, Move, Sense — and that all the different Power effects be created from them with Power Modifiers. I don’t think the idea had any more merit then than it does now, and have no intention of implementing it (unless, as usual, someone were to come up with an utterly brilliant argument in its favor). I think this would make the HERO System even harder to learn and create far more problems than it might solve.
I think it might help for certain classes of problem. For example, 1" teleport is generally useful out of proportion to its cost, as a cheap way to escape from grapples and entangles and pass through walls. This doesn't mean reducing all powers down to anything like that short a list, though. Some more generic powers which might be useful:

Damage: there's no real need for separate powers of Blast, Hand Attack, Mental Blast, etc; they're really all one power. Keeping Killing separate, as it has a different mechanic, is reasonable.
Defend: I agree that I don't see the point here. However, merging the various ways of buying PD/ED/rPD/rED would be a good thing.
Inflict: attack power that causes a negative condition, rather than damage. Incorporates Drain, Flash, Mental Illusions, Mind Control, Transform. Entangle probably needs to be separate, though it can be merged with a Create Object power.
Move: treat all the special forms of movement as adders, rather than a separate power. Something like: Clinging (+5p). Flight (+20p). Gliding (+10p). Leaping (+5p). Swimming (+5p). Teleport (+20p). Tunneling (+X p). Water Walking (+5p); each one just lets you move at your normal speed in that particular movement mode. This eliminates structures such as Flight (only along surfaces).
Sense: well, this pretty well already exists, though turning Telepathy and Mind Scan into senses has some appeal.

[SSgt Baloo]

Q: Should we change the term “Power”?

Steve’s Thoughts: The use of “Power” as a term for a game element is confusing, since it’s not the same thing as a power, and because Powers can be used to create abilities that people don’t think of as “powers.” It’s a relic of the HERO System’s roots in the Comic Book Superhero genre.

However, despite my not liking it, and despite having discussed this issue with a lot of people over the years, I’ve yet to come up with anything better.

The only candidate suggested thus far that has any appeal would be "Ability". Having said that, I'd kind of like to have it renamed "George" ("George" or "real George" used to be a slang term meaning "Wonderful".) [/obscure reference]

Q: Should we consider renaming some of the Powers?

Steve’s Thoughts: Arguably some of the Powers still have names that are a bit too “comic book-y,” that suggest certain special effects, or that use strained language. Here are some examples that occur to me:

Current Name —> Possible Change
Armor —> Defense, Passive
Desolidification —> Intangibiliity
Ego Attack —> Mental Attack
Energy Blast —> Normal Attack, Ranged (or possibly “Blast”)
Entangle —> Restrain
Force Field —> Defense, Active
Force Wall —> Wall (or maybe Barrier)
HA —> Normal Attack, HTH


My suggestions?
Armor —> Fold it in with pd/ed and Damage resistance.
Ego Attack —> See below.
Energy Blast —> this is a ranged form of HA and should be treated accordingly
Entangle —> Restrain (Maybe now we can use a mental paralysis based on this?)
Force Field —> (Defenses that cost END and have no range)
Force Wall —> Barrier. Perhaps it should be based on Restrain?
HA —> Attack (adding STR to damage is an advantage, adding range is an advantage, mental attack is an advantage, killing attack is an advantage.)Q: Should we consider adding some new Powers?

Steve’s Thoughts: There’s certainly no shortage of candidates for new Powers that have been suggested over the years. In my HEROglyphs columns I described the following:

Probability Alteration (DH #4, allows character to alter probabilities affecting him or others)

Sounds like a way to get rid of Luck dice in favor of something less nebulous. OTOH, I would like to suggest putting a few notes next to whatever passes for "luck" in 6E to suggest a few ways of simulating luck besides the power that currently bears the name.

Object Creation DH #7, allows creation of simple objects)

Is something like this really necessary? I know Transform is overutilized, but isn't this one of the things it's supposed to do? Or is what you are discribing fundamentally different than conjuring something up from something else (or something from nothing)?

Activate (DH #14, allows character to activate devices/machines at range)

Again, I'm not sure what the power you're proposing is supposed to do differently from using TK to control objects at a distance?

Automaton Powers (DH #44, Automaton Powers for all character types)

It's about time! I did this anyway.

Of these, I think the one that definitely deserves serious consideration is Activate. The contortions I had to go through to build abilities to activate devices in the USPD tell me that we need some standard, easy-to-use rule for that effect.

I don't understand. Can you give some f'rinstances of "Activate" in game usage?

—making Succor a distinct Power

It used to be, didn't it? If you're describing what I think you are, I'm in favor of it.

—a power that allows characters to suffocate targets

Doesn't NND or EB, NO BODY do something like this? Couldn't it just be suggested that a power based on suffocation SFX results in suffocation if maintained after the victim loses consciousness?

—a power that allows characters to inflict a Stunned effect on a target without actually doing any STUN or BODY damage
—a power that instantly Knocks Out a target without any physical effects like Knockback or injury (for, e.g., sleep spells)

As others have mentioned, there's a lot of different ways to do this. My preferred method would be an appropriately limited NND or Mind Control.

—a HTH Deflection that does for HTH attacks what Missile Deflection does for Ranged attacks

It's been suggested that perhaps missile deflection could become an extension of the Block maneuver. I'd like to see that.

—a personal Defense Power that provides protection like a Force Wall does

Force Wall, personal effect only (limitation?). A reasonable way to approximate a limited form of invulnerability.

—an Invulnerability power[quote]

Or just allow a 100% level of Damage Reduction with all the appropriate warnings, bells and whistles.

[quote]Q: Should we collapse the Powers down to a very small number and “create” the other effects with Advantages and Limitations?

Not necessarily, but someone else suggested that such be included in the design notes for those who want to experiment with their own crunchy flavors of Hero.

...we need a good acronym for that -- SHE for Sixth Hero Edition?

[obscure reference]
How about Ayesha?
[/obscure reference]

[Lucius]

Hi folx!


:)Hi, Mr. Long!

Sorry, couldn't resist it any longer....


Automaton Powers (DH #44, Automaton Powers for all character types)


For some - Does not Bleed, No Hit Locations - this is a "no brainer."

For others - Takes No Stun - the balance considerations give one pause, but I still am in favor of making them officially available - with a great big stopsign.




Q: Should we collapse the Powers down to a very small number and “create” the other effects with Advantages and Limitations?



Within limits.

For example, we've never had seperate powers for Energy and Physical damage - it's always been a kind of "toggle," damage dealing powers do one or the other and you choose which when you buy the power, but we've never had both Energy Blast and Physical Blast as seperate powers. So maybe the difference between Ranged and Hand to Hand should be a "toggle" as well?

Then again, maybe what we need to do is completely revamp the rules for adding damage. Maybe make the default for the damaging power "Ranged" with a limitation for "No Range" and then adding STR is an Advantage? Possibly a variable Advantage depending on how much one can add....hm....

In any case, Normal Attacks and Killing Attacks need to be balanced against each other. Not long ago, a brand new person (I forget who) who had just bought the game and found the website, on one of his first posts brought up the obvious imbalance and asked if he was missing something because it didn't look right to him....totally unaware of how many times the issue has been hashed out over the decades.

I see three ways this can be done:

Make Killing an Advantage. An obvious solution and often raised, although I actually have not endorsed it for over a year. But if we go that route, I think it should be two Advantages: One to cover the improved dice mechanic, and one to cover the limited Attack Vs Limited Defense aspect.

Make Killing an Addervantage. Just as Resistant Defenses is an Addervantage - it adds to "Base Cost" before Advantages, like an Adder, but the cost is a percentage of how much of the power you have bought, like a +1/2 Advantage. Then again maybe what we really want to do is get rid of the one Addervantage in the game - and other orphan mechanics?

Make Normal a Limitation. This has the advantage (if you'll pardon the expression) of being already in the system, in the form of the "mandatory limitation" for Hand to Hand Normal Attack. It also seems to cause less disruption than the alternatives. It's just a matter of extending it to whatever you are going to call Ranged Normal Attack. However, I propose two changes: 1. I think the limitation should perhaps be larger. 2. I think there should be two limitations: One to impose the more limited dice rolling mechanic, and one to apply against all applicable (non-resistant) defenses.

Oh, and another possibility is to just eliminate one class of damage or the other. Not something I'd seriously propose, but for the sake of mentioning all possible options....


And a more general suggestion: Besides the Addervantage I mention, I think the system should be scoured for "orphan mechanics." If they are useful, perhaps they can be expanded to other aspects of the system; if not, perhaps they can be eliminated in the interest of streamlining and simplifying the system.


Lucius Alexander

And a leaner, meaner palindromedary

[Enforcer84]

Do you like the way its structured, or how much it costs? I don't have anything intrinsically against the way its structured; its that the final costs seem, well, bluntly, ridiculous for what it does for you that I have an issue with. If it was built in a similar fashion, but where it used 5s and 3s where it uses 10s and 5s perhaps, I'd have far less to complain about.

Its the fact that all the sensory powers are built to a common metric, which means the only variable is base cost that creates the problem there. Adding a sense group to what your Shapeshift effects is simply not the same in value as doing so with your Images (and I'm not sure its the same with your Flash, your Darkness or your Invisibility either, though its muddier comparing those three). If they were constructed with the same pattern, but with adders of different value based on the base value of the effect (as they would be if they were Advantages instead) that creates the issue there.

But that's rather my point; sometimes I think its too easy to make things tidy at the expense of making them work right.
No, I don't mind it's cost. If it were cheaper it'd be harder to fit into Elemental Controls. :)

[GamePhil]

Q: Should we collapse the Powers down to a very small number and “create” the other effects with Advantages and Limitations?


This one's near and dear to me, so I'll start with it. And my answer is: Eh, probably not. It runs into the same problem as with adventures: only a small percentage of the gaming populace would buy it, this time, the tinkerers, which is probably an even smaller chunk of the pie than the GMs. That's not a good thing for a main rule book.

In addition, people already complain about Regeneration and Instant Change, and so long as Hero maintains the "show your work" policy, it would get many times worse if you had to do something similar to create an Energy Blast.

Personally, I would love to see a set of rules like this, and have the game based on them. One more level of abstraction, behind the scenes, would do my tinkerer's heart good. But I absolutely think that a separate pamphlet or a five page section in the appendix would be a better way to present it, if it's ever done, than re-writing the game system around it.

[GamePhil]

I'd like to make a general design philosophy suggestion. I'll give what I consider a couple examples of it that occur in 5e, but it has more implications than that, and I think is sound even if you don't agree with my specific examples.

Don't let system consistency interfere with purchase value.


Well, I sort of agree, and I wouldn't mind seeing a "This Is More/Less Useful Than The Points Indicate" Modifier, but I don't entirely agree with the conclusion. If you're getting an undesirable result by consistently applying the rules, then the rules need to be examined, not just thrown to the side. More options are frequently the result, and are seldom bad things.

For example, I'm completely on board with Damage Shield having to be Continuous, but a lot of the rest I have issue with. My simplest answer: It is not more useful than another Continuous Power, so it should not need a larger Advantage, it's simply a form of Continuous (much as Radius and Line are forms of Area Of Effect). Then, you can further examine Continuous to see if still more forms of it might be made available. Or, you could say that Damage Shield is still a +1/2, but that it can take No Range and Self Only, and if it doesn't you can place the Damage Shield around something else.

[GamePhil]

Q: Should we change the term “Power”?


I think the main problem there is that most everything else you could call it has similar problems. The best I've seen is "Effect" earlier, but with Special Effect being so core to the game it might be confusing, too.


Q: Should we consider renaming some of the Powers?


Maybe. Being flavorless is not necessarily bad, since the players provide the flavor.


Q: Should we consider adding some new Powers?


Probably, though what the Powers are to be is the challenge.


Of these, I think the one that definitely deserves serious consideration is Activate. The contortions I had to go through to build abilities to activate devices in the USPD tell me that we need some standard, easy-to-use rule for that effect.


I would prefer to see Activate folded into a broader power, if possible. It just feels too narrow in effect to me to be a really useful Power, that is, one with enough applicability to see often on character sheets.

I kind of like just using Mind Control against Body, though.

Your other HG articles I need to look at.


—making Succor a distinct Power


Unconcerned.


—a power that allows characters to suffocate targets


Too narrow. Perhaps an Environmental Effect Power, or an expansion of Change Environment.


—a power that allows characters to inflict a Stunned effect on a target without actually doing any STUN or BODY damage
—a power that instantly Knocks Out a target without any physical effects like Knockback or injury (for, e.g., sleep spells)


We can do both of those now with a Standard Effect Stun Only EB, with Only To Stun for the first and All Or Nothing and Recovers Full Stun When Brought To Consciousness on the second, not sure we need another way.


—a HTH Deflection that does for HTH attacks what Missile Deflection does for Ranged attacks


I'd prefer a reworking of Missile Deflection to a separate Power.


—a personal Defense Power that provides protection like a Force Wall does


All for it. It helps bring characters and vehicles and automatons together.


—an Invulnerability power


Like with a lot of things, I prefer to just use Absolute Effect. I do think those rules should be in the 6th Ed books, though.

[Paragon]

No, I don't mind it's cost. If it were cheaper it'd be harder to fit into Elemental Controls. :)

I have to point out that using the criteria that nothing costs too much because of frameworks seems, well, a little arcane.

[Paragon]

Well, I sort of agree, and I wouldn't mind seeing a "This Is More/Less Useful Than The Points Indicate" Modifier, but I don't entirely agree with the conclusion. If you're getting an undesirable result by consistently applying the rules, then the rules need to be examined, not just thrown to the side. More options are frequently the result, and are seldom bad things.



In theory I agree, but I've seen enough build systems now over the years that I've concluded this isn't entirely addressable on a systemic level; you can fiddle with costs until hell freezes over, and some things will still come out wrong.



For example, I'm completely on board with Damage Shield having to be Continuous, but a lot of the rest I have issue with. My simplest answer: It is not more useful than another Continuous Power, so it should not need a larger Advantage, it's simply a form of Continuous (much as Radius and Line are forms of Area Of Effect). Then, you can further examine Continuous to see if




Well, personally, I think its overpriced even at Continuous, but that's neither here nor there.



still more forms of it might be made available. Or, you could say that Damage Shield is still a +1/2, but that it can take No Range and Self Only, and if it doesn't you can place the Damage Shield around something else.

Which is tantamount to what I'm talking about though, since that decision is fundamentally subjective in regard to applicability. I'll also note it makes the construction more complicated without really any purpose.

[Chris Goodwin]

I would prefer to see Activate folded into a broader power, if possible. It just feels too narrow in effect to me to be a really useful Power, that is, one with enough applicability to see often on character sheets.

I had come up with a Power of my own called "Toggle". It could flip something between two states. Locking and unlocking a door was the main function, but it could turn a car on or off, or put someone to sleep (though it would probably need a roll against a Characteristic for the latter, though. Activate seems pretty similar to what I was going for.

[Vondy]

Do you like the way its structured, or how much it costs? I don't have anything intrinsically against the way its structured; its that the final costs seem, well, bluntly, ridiculous for what it does for you that I have an issue with. If it was built in a similar fashion, but where it used 5s and 3s where it uses 10s and 5s perhaps, I'd have far less to complain about.


I agree. I don't mind the structure - it makes a weird kind of sense - bu