Why We're Creating The 6th Edition -- Please Read Before Posting

[Steve Long]

Many fans are likely to ask “Why now for 6E?” or “Is 6E really necessary?”. We definitely think the time has come for 6E, and that having a Sixth Edition will make our products better and our fans’ gaming experiences better. We have two main reasons for this:

1. We can make the game better.

We have six years more experience at the job of writing and designing RPGs than we did when 5E came out, and six years more experience at layout, presentation, marketing, and the like. When I wrote the 5E manuscript I had explicit instructions about what I could and could not change, regardless of my own personal feelings on the matter, and I stuck to those instructions. When we published 5E we decided to stay that course rather than have me go back and rework things from the beginning to be more in tune with what I would have preferred to do. Now I have the opportunity to re-examine the HERO System from the ground up and make any changes I think are necessary, regardless of how “radical” they might be.

Beyond that, there’s the simple fact that we (and you) have six years more experience at thinking about and using the HERO System. We’ve published thousands of pages of new material for the HERO System, and that’s led to all sorts of ideas about improvements, additions, expansions, variants, and revisions that are worth including in the core rules. The time has come to make those improvements official.

2. To take advantage of the opportunities presented by the release of the CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG.

As many of you have read by now in our new CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG forum, Cryptic Studios has bought the Champions intellectual property and will release a massive multiplayer online roleplaying game based on it in 2009. That gives us access to a whole new customer base that’s never been exposed to our products before, and we want to publish books (primarily Champions books) that will appeal to them. That means reworking the books to attract their interest, such as by using art from the MMO and organizing the material to suit someone whose background is in MMOs rather than true RPGs (but without, I hasten to add, making the books less useful and appealing to our traditional RPG playing fans and customers). As long as we’re going to have to make changes along those lines, it’s the perfect opportunity to also make changes to the rules engine. (Though again, to make things perfectly clear, I am not changing the HERO System to work like an MMO, Cryptic Studios does not own the HERO System rules, and the CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG does not use the HERO System rules for character creation, task or combat resolution, or anything else.) To put it another way, as long as we’ve got the hood open to change the oil we might as well replace the spark plugs if it looks like they need it. ;)

[Omegaplex]

^ Enjoying milking this announcement thing, aren'cha?

;)

Methinks it's a licensing deal. If you land a big license (DC HERO, etc), it makes sense to work it from the ground up around it, rather than an add-on. I think most people are perfectly, blissfully happy with 'ole FREd without having something really earth-shaking warranting a 6th... years of writing experience simply means better 5th materials in the future ;)

Thoughts?

[CourtFool]

Honestly, I am glad to see a 6e. I am sure there is going to be a lot of people that are very angry about this decision (D&D 4e anyone?). I also think Hero might be going in a different direction than I would prefer to see. I am starting to lean more towards rules light system and it appears that Steve, in wanting to make Hero more granular, will be maintaining Hero as a rules heavy system. That being said, I know a lot of people that will agree with him.

I support you, Steve. I think it takes a lot of guts to announce this up front and honestly like this. You open yourself up for a lot of attacks (haters). And I will probably be banned for suggesting that ' Hero might be going in a different direction than I would prefer to see'. But that is me, a rebel without opposable thumbs.

[Psybolt]

What about reason #3?

[Jhaierr]

I was a little wary about 6th Edition when I heard about the announcement, but now that I'm reading this thread and others where you are talking about how you'll be examining everything from the ground up and fixing some of the problems that we all deal with, I'm beginning to feel positive about it. I particularly like the idea of simplifying needlessly complex things.

[yamamura]

And I will probably be banned for suggesting that ' Hero might be going in a different direction than I would prefer to see'. But that is me, a rebel without opposable thumbs.

Negative rep isn't good enough for you, you want to be banned too;) Seriously ther times that I like the granular feeling of HERO and others time I pulled out BESM 3ed and play that. I am currently in the latter phase but will swing around to 5Ed again. So I am behind Steve on this but I always have 5Ed and BESM if 6th is not for me.

[Theron]

When 5th edition came out, my biggest gripe at the time was that they didn't change enough. The reasons for that became clear over time and make sense in retrospect, but 2009 seems like a very reasonable time to bring on a new edition.

[Omegaplex]

I'm curious if this smacks of GURPS 4th to anybody else? I stopped buying GURPS when the new edition came out, largely for the same reason that I'm reluctant to getting into a HERO 6th. I'm sure the new edition will be superior mechanically, but I'll take tons of support from years of good books ('mostly compatible' notwithstanding) over relaunch, rehash, and rewritten (but sitll mostly the same books) any day.

Heck, GURPS is STILL releasing books covering material that I already own from 3rd... and 4th has been on the market for what, 3 years?

Guess that sums up my problems with any talk of a 'new edition' for any RPG I'm already invested in.

Thoughts?

[CourtFool]

I am not asking for BESM level rules light...but yes, I am curious to see how rule heavy 6e will be. I am still allowed to agree to disagree around these parts...right....right? Guys?

[Balok]

I'm curious if this smacks of GURPS 4th to anybody else? I stopped buying GURPS when the new edition came out, largely for the same reason that I'm reluctant to getting into a HERO 6th. I'm sure the new edition will be superior mechanically, but I'll take tons of support from years of good books ('mostly compatible' notwithstanding) over relaunch, rehash, and rewritten (but sitll mostly the same books) any day.

Heck, GURPS is STILL releasing books covering material that I already own from 3rd... and 4th has been on the market for what, 3 years?In the sense that both are new editions, sure.

Keep in mind that GURPS also changed production models from paperbacks at 128 pages to hardbacks at better than 200 pages. They had some problems with that, and this delayed their initial release. Eventually they decided their release plans were too ambitious for their staffing level and model. And Jackson didn't want to hire people wholesale because he's been burned (he says) hiring quickly and having to fire. SJG also devoted a lot of focus to the Munchkin line. That makes sense considering relative sales volume but it draws staff away from GURPS.

To sum up, gaming companies aren't interchangeable cogs. ;)

[Chris Goodwin]

When 5th edition came out, my biggest gripe at the time was that they didn't change enough. The reasons for that became clear over time and make sense in retrospect, but 2009 seems like a very reasonable time to bring on a new edition.

This I agree with. I'm happy to see 6th edition on the horizon and am looking forward to seeing what comes next.

[McCoy]

Waiting, watching, reserving judgement.

[memorax300]

Waiting, watching, reserving judgement.

Same here. Though I probably will cut back on my Hero purchases. I don't want to buy something that may or may not be compatible with 6ED.

[Beast]

this is my big worry

How much change will there be
will it be just mechanics and maybe some slight cost changes and a bit of work to redo all characters to 6th ed

what about already published books that have just come out
are they going to need to be redone completly or just have charaters changed

is this going to be Fusion again


Same here. Though I probably will cut back on my Hero purchases. I don't want to buy something that may or may not be compatible with 6ED.

[AlbertDeschesne]

Old Joke:

6th edition is just Transform...with a lot a adders and limiters.

Anyway, I think 6th ed is mainly needed to conform to the way most people approach gaming these days. Casually. So it'll need to be a little lighter in the rules, while still maintaining the "hero" aspect of the game.

I, for one, hope that it'll let you make characters that fit on trading cards easily. (Anyone who seen my deck of DC Heroes character cards for Metaverse, know what I mean.) :)

[Chris Goodwin]

I think a thing that will really help 6th edition will be books that you can use "out of the box". Something that you can pick up and in an hour have characters made and be playing. You could do that with first edition Fantasy Hero, but since 4th edition I don't think I've seen a Hero System book you could.

[CourtFool]

And here I have to disagree with Chris. I do not need another fluff filled role playing game. Give me the mechanics and I will steal the fluff from somewhere else. Of course, I am alone in this. You better go with Chris. Kids these days can't think for themselves and want one stop gaming all pre-packaged with pretty pictures and pre-built worlds.

[Chris Goodwin]

And I disagree with you and..uhh...agree with me. I honestly think that such a book would do more to attract new players, especially if that book was small and usable with (or packaged with!) Sidekick, even as an all-in-one a la PS238 and Lucha Hero, than all the simplifying and new-editioning.

Edit: More in-depth response here (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63466) to keep it off the 6th edition board.

[Gadodel]

Waiting, watching, reserving judgement.
Seconded...or thirded...anyways...

I spent a lot of time learning the rules for 5E. I finally got comfortable enough to actually Game Master for it just last year. More impressive, I managed to get some Die Hard-other System Users to try it out. Trust me, the latter was nothing short of a wish being fulfilled.

So, part of me is very nervous and the other part wondering if I can repeat the efforts I've made thus far. Time, will tell; I guess.

[Enforcer84]

I am not asking for BESM level rules light...but yes, I am curious to see how rule heavy 6e will be. I am still allowed to agree to disagree around these parts...right....right? Guys?
No. Back to your corner

[Enforcer84]

And with a straight face and no malice I ask: "If making the game lighter is the goal why did we spend the last few years printing Ultimate books that added more crunch?"

But beyond that question I'll make no judgments until I hold 6th Ed in my hand.

[James Gillen]

And with a straight face and no malice I ask: "If making the game lighter is the goal why did we spend the last few years printing Ultimate books that added more crunch?"

But beyond that question I'll make no judgments until I hold 6th Ed in my hand.

Not to answer that question for Steve but I always assumed that the Ultimate books were take-it-or-leave-it stuff that added on to the base and were not strictly necessary, with the possible exception of The Ultimate Martial Artist, which is just too useful in general not to be "canon." I don't know how many of us need Mental Combat Modifiers, for example.

JG

[CourtFool]

No. Back to your corner

Yeah...that is what I expected from this board.

[Enforcer84]

Yeah...that is what I expected from this board.
You know you like it. :)

[caris]

Seriously, I do not find myself getting excited about this decision/announcement. If anything, it actually kind of bothers me. While I'm not perfectly happy with 5th, I don't feel that there are enough things I want changed to warrant a new edition. Which of course, leads to the part that is really worries me, that I'm going to see little/few changes to the things I have problems with, and huge changes to things that I do like and/or have no problem with, changes that might detract from my gaming experience.

I really have to disagree with a decision that was apparently made with 5th Ed. That was the time to introduce the level of changes that I’m inferring are Steve’s intent/hope for this new edition. You had such a nice clean break from the previous edition there would be little of the compatibility issues that are coming up in people’s minds that we have already heard here.

I have a somewhat different concern. Unlike 6 years ago, I’ve had six years of exposure to Steve’s style of gaming as expressed in the rules and his rulings. I’m pretty sure that I don’t want to see the base rules moved more in that direction.

[lemming]

I've liked changes in each edition and hated changes in each edition. Every time there's been entertainment derived from reading & digesting the rules, so I'm fine.

[Boll Weevil]

I too will withhold judgment until I see the changes. I was a little upset when 5Er came out. My less-than-two-years-old rulebook was functional but all my page numbers were wrong (I use these boards for guidance A LOT). I would welcome a restructuring of the rules a la 4th to 5th but a drastic change that would render my several hundred dollars worth of current material worthless would end my Hero purchases.

[Hugh Neilson]

Not to answer that question for Steve but I always assumed that the Ultimate books were take-it-or-leave-it stuff that added on to the base and were not strictly necessary, with the possible exception of The Ultimate Martial Artist, which is just too useful in general not to be "canon." I don't know how many of us need Mental Combat Modifiers, for example.

The size of the core rules is often noted as an impediment for new players. Paring the base rules down and adding optional rules in other books seems the norm. I like having everything in one book, but is it getting unwieldy? Should some options be saved for later books?

Consider that many detractors of Hero's "very complex, huge, intimidating rulebook" offer the option of games with smaller base rulebooks and a few dozen (or few hundred) supplemental books. They don't have less rules, they deliver in smaller parcels.

[steamteck]

I'm pretty happen with the core mechanics of 5th and everything bandied abot on the boards seems quite inferior to the current way of doing things for the core concepts so I'm wary but listening. Won't take too much fundamental change to turn me off

[MisterBaldy]

I'm curious if this smacks of GURPS 4th to anybody else? I stopped buying GURPS when the new edition came out, largely for the same reason that I'm reluctant to getting into a HERO 6th. I'm sure the new edition will be superior mechanically, but I'll take tons of support from years of good books ('mostly compatible' notwithstanding) over relaunch, rehash, and rewritten (but sitll mostly the same books) any day.

Heck, GURPS is STILL releasing books covering material that I already own from 3rd... and 4th has been on the market for what, 3 years?

Guess that sums up my problems with any talk of a 'new edition' for any RPG I'm already invested in.

Thoughts?
WE HAVE A WINNER!!! :celebrate

This indeed seems like too much of a coincidence. I smells a lot like GURPS 4e.

Okay, in all fairness, I can understand to some extent a release of a HERO System 6th Edition.

From a financial stand point, it makes perfect sense. A new edition creates a potential for increased revenue.
It also gives a chance to clear some issues from a "game mechanics" point of view as well. Some of the issues of "over-complication" (like the whole "Regeneration issue") in the mechanics can be finally dealt with, and cleaned up.
It gives a chance to "streamline" the book formatting, making it more "user-friendly".From a consumer standpoint, it raises some issues and questions.

Should I continue to buy new books for HERO System 5th Edition, Revised, knowing that in about one year... they will become "obsolete" and "outdated"? Shouldn't I wait, stop spending my $$$ for the materials related to HERO System 5th Edition, Revised, and wait until HERO System 6th Edition is released?
Is it worthwhile for me to buy the most current version of Hero Designer? This would mean that I would be buying a "two year" support agreement, and I may not be able to use it with the new HERO 6th Edition?For a consumer, like myself, I have to choose very carefully where I spend my $$$. I don't have the free money that I once had. These are decisions that I have to personally make, considering my financial standing. Although this is my issue, I know that I am probably not alone.

Personally, I am torn about the decision to release a HERO System 6th Edition.

So, for now... I'm just going to wait to see how this develops. :angst:

[Kdansky]

I'm all for it. Honestly, I did not believe this to happen. But there are quite a few things I would like to see. To sum up:

- No simplification. I am quite happy with what we have, and I don't think for example having only 3-6 stats is better, quite the opposite.
- No grandfathering. I will happily rewrite all my characters. That's something I actually enjoy ;) Get rid of the abominations (eg. figured con/str problem)

I want sleek, conceptually strong rules! Gogo!

[Velocinox]

As someone who has posted before on the Champions MMO concept, I wish you all the best in your new partnership and the exciting new path Steve, Derek, and all the other Hero writers are going to get to explore.

Here's my hopes that you get your slice of the 10 million times 15 times 12.

[Edsel]

Waiting to see all three reasons before passing judgment. I have pretty much thrown-in my lot with the Hero System, it is about the only RPG our group ever plays. I will probably stick with Hero unless the 6th Ed really disagrees with me.

[Omegaplex]

WE HAVE A WINNER!!! :celebrate

This indeed seems like too much of a coincidence. I smells a lot like GURPS 4e.



Okay, in all fairness, I can understand to some extent a release of a HERO System 6th Edition.
From a financial stand point, it makes perfect sense. A new edition creates a potential for increased revenue.
It also gives a chance to clear some issues from a "game mechanics" point of view as well. Some of the issues of "over-complication" (like the whole "Regeneration issue") in the mechanics can be finally dealt with, and cleaned up.
It gives a chance to "streamline" the book formatting, making it more "user-friendly".Well, the main problem I have is that I'll be waiting another 5 years to get books I don't already own. A big part of why I loved GURPS 3rd (and HERO 5th) is that they had an incredibly diverse array of books on the market.

With the GURPS relaunch, what have they released? Gee, Rules, Martial Arts, Powers, Bio-Tech, High-Tech, Space, Fantasy... blah blah blah. ALL the same stuff already done for 3rd, just facelifted. I want something NEW.

Same thing will happen with HERO - heck, it's even on the 2009 schedule. What books does HERO get after 6th launches? Martial Arts, Sidekick, Champions, and Champions Universe. I suppose Space, Fantasy, and Dark Champions will follow, along with UNTIL and VIPER sourcebooks, Pulp, villain books...

Anybody else see what I'm getting at here? It's like the 'new book' days are over. Time to go back and redo all the stuff we've all got. That's why I bailed on GURPS, and why I'm tentative about HERO.

[Akiva]

I've always been confused at why people get so upset and offended at the publication of a new edition of their favorite game. They seem to either suddenly point the finger at the publisher and accuse them of suddenly becoming greedy or they threaten to leave the game entirely. Also, the comparisons to GURPS 4e are odd: I'm certain that if GURPS wasn't also a generic system, no one would even think about it. I don't see people pointing at the publication of Ars Magica 5th Edition as some kind of example at how DoJ has gone from a beloved friend to a shifty whisper in a back alley.

No matter what, though, it always boils down to this: when you get into a game system, you face one of two possible eventual realities: either one day they're going to publish a new edition or they're going to discontinue the line. No major game at HERO's level has ever been able to get away with publishing a 'final edition' of the game and realistically maintaining it and themselves as a company forever through supplements only. And when faced with a new version of HERO or the end of HERO all together, which one would you choose?

Personally, I'll go with a new version of HERO.

[Akiva]

Also, I want to add that I wish that I had another year with the HERO system before these discussions started up. I've got experience in this sort of thing and have helped with new editions of Aria: Canticle of the Monomyth (which, sadly, never got anywhere) and Rolemaster (which, sadly, has been delayed until 2010 or later). Unfortunately, I am simply not confident enough with HERO yet to be of any real assistance here at all. I'll probably have to sit this round out.

Ah, well. I'll stick around for the 7th Edition discussions in 2015.

Heh heh heh.

[Chris Goodwin]

Because some people have spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars on books that they don't want to see be made useless.

I don't want to see any more changes made between fifth and sixth than were made between fourth and fifth, or third and fourth.

I can still, with minor tweaks, use materials released for third edition with 5e. If I can't do that with sixth edition, I'm a lot less likely to want to get into it.

[Akiva]

And, as far as I can tell, I don't think all of our 5th edition books are going to suddenly burst into flames the moment 6th edition hits the shelves. Sure, you can argue that, with 6th edition, support for 5th effectively ends but isn't it also argued that one of the best features of HERO is that you don't need anything other than the main rulebook to play? I can kind of understand the supplement argument with other systems where those supplements are required to even play the game (try playing a lengthy GURPS 3e fantasy campaign with the core rulebook only) but with HERO? Sure, the HERO supplements are all helpful but they are not required.

Furthermore, considering the kind of publisher that DoJ is, I'd be surprised if we don't see some kind of conversion book that will keep most of the 5th edition supplements useful. Heck, maybe it'll even be published as a free PDF.

[Maur]

Well, even if they release a new edition, they can't force gamers to move to it once the gamers have copies of the previous edition. WOTC can't force gamers to change to 4th Ed and I don't think they can stop publishers from continuing to publish content under the OGL for v3/3.5. Same with HERO. People still play 4th Ed even though 5th is out. Why would you stop playing 5th just because 6th is out?

[Chris Goodwin]

And, as far as I can tell, I don't think all of our 5th edition books are going to suddenly burst into flames the moment 6th edition hits the shelves. Sure, you can argue that, with 6th edition, support for 5th effectively ends but isn't it also argued that one of the best features of HERO is that you don't need anything other than the main rulebook to play? I can kind of understand the supplement argument with other systems where those supplements are required to even play the game (try playing a lengthy GURPS 3e fantasy campaign with the core rulebook only) but with HERO? Sure, the HERO supplements are all helpful but they are not required.

No, but you end up with new people effectively speaking a different language, and a harder time finding players for your favorite version of the game.

Like it or not, helping people's investments in books keep their value can be a valid reason for minimizing forward incompatibility.


Well, even if they release a new edition, they can't force gamers to move to it once the gamers have copies of the previous edition. WOTC can't force gamers to change to 4th Ed and I don't think they can stop publishers from continuing to publish content under the OGL for v3/3.5. Same with HERO. People still play 4th Ed even though 5th is out. Why would you stop playing 5th just because 6th is out?

See above. New players will be playing 6th. Harder to get someone who has just bought a shiny new 6th edition book to play in your 5er game. Easier to give the guy with $1000 worth of 5e books on his shelf a reason to buy into 6th, and let him keep using those books.

[Simon]

No, but you end up with new people effectively speaking a different language, and a harder time finding players for your favorite version of the game.

Like it or not, helping people's investments in books keep their value can be a valid reason for minimizing forward incompatibility.
Errr...but weren't you just saying earlier how you still play 3rd edition materials in 5th? So the terminology and even the rules have not changed that much.

Why do people seem to immediately jump to the worst-possible-case scenario in their heads without any information to back it up and run with it as the gods-given truth?

Why would 6th suddenly be a radical departure from the core rules? Why indeed when Steve has said that this is not his intent? Given this, and your previously stated ability to still use materials from several editions ago (if you count 5ER as a new edition), why the sudden belief that when 6th comes out everyone will be speaking a different language and none of your 5th edition (or even 4th/3rd) materials will be usable?

[Chris Goodwin]

Errr...but weren't you just saying earlier how you still play 3rd edition materials in 5th? So the terminology and even the rules have not changed that much.

Yes, and recall I said they didn't change that much between third and fifth.


Why would 6th suddenly be a radical departure from the core rules? Why indeed when Steve has said that this is not his intent? Given this, and your previously stated ability to still use materials from several editions ago (if you count 5ER as a new edition), why the sudden belief that when 6th comes out everyone will be speaking a different language and none of your 5th edition (or even 4th/3rd) materials will be usable?

A lot of proposals have been floated, some of them pretty radical. It's easy to look at those in the aggregate and think that the sky may be preparing to fall. Perhaps we won't be seeing all of them in the final product, but we're seeing all of them in the discussion stage, and it's hard to separate them. We don't know at this point which ones will make the final cut.

[Simon]

Yes, and recall I said they didn't change that much between third and fifth.



A lot of proposals have been floated, some of them pretty radical. It's easy to look at those in the aggregate and think that the sky may be preparing to fall. Perhaps we won't be seeing all of them in the final product, but we're seeing all of them in the discussion stage, and it's hard to separate them. We don't know at this point which ones will make the final cut.
Please take this in the spirit it's intended (a completely straight question with no outside implications): were you around for the discussion of 5th?

The exact same process went on.

Look to Steve's initial statements about his goals for 6th. If you need an idea of where things are going to go with the new edition, listening to what the Line Developer wants to do with it and what level of changes he's looking at are a pretty good place to start (note: not ideas that he's posting for input about, but the general direction and concepts that he posted in the top threads of this forum)

I've seen a truly ridiculous amount of wild speculation and hand-wringing over this announcement.....without much in the way of any solid backing. Those folks that are reading over what Steve's intentions are and where he's looking to take things for 6th seem to all be saying that it's looking very promising.

You yourself have said that your past experience has shown very little change between even two major revisions of the rules. I ask again, why would you suddenly jump to the conclusion that this pattern will cease and 6th will be a completely different system with completely different terminology, rules, and mechanics. When the guy behind it all has pretty much stated that this will not be the case?

Wouldn't it make more sense to go with "this will likely be very similar to past version updates" than "this will be unlike anything we have ever seen before -- Steve has given into greed and sold us all out" ?

[Thia Halmades]

Again, the more I'm reading this, and the more I look at the history, the more I'm asking myself: "Really, are we going to change that much? Really?"

I doubt it. The core of HERO is clearly intended to be kept; this isn't Fuzion, and it isn't d20, and while everyone is going "Oh noes! GURPZ 4.0!!@#!!~!@eleven!!" I'm going "Well, we had 5th... and I came in at 5th Revised and I've purchased at least 500 in books since then, and I own Robot Warriors (3rd Ed) and I've used it. I can't imagine a world where my materials are simply completely outdated, for example, from D&D 2nd Edition to 3rd Edition."

I've been advocating the same basic stance and I'll stick to it until proven otherwise:

1. This is inevitable, and if it's good for the company, and the company gets more money to publish more books, that's good for me, the consumer.

2. I'd like to see the rules refined and clarified anyway, and even though not a thing I say may make it into the new system, I'll at least know that my opinion is valued and that I made an effort to contribute.

3. I play Heroic level games, and this is a great opportunity to put in what I've wanted the whole time, which is a clearer delineation between Heroic & Super-Heroic.

4. I agree with Court-Fool; everyone should have access to the rules and be able to build whatever they want. The purpose of HERO is to be a tool kit by which you build an Engine. I think, also, that HERO should lay down "core guidelines" in terms of consistency with armor, damage, and scale. Then Chris has what he wants; people can get to the fun very easily. And Court-Fool has what he wants; we can make our fun by investing the work. And I have what I think is best: A game that anyone can get into inside of a few hours, but can take years to master and get the nuances of.

Here's my unnerving thought for the day: "I'm agreeing with Simon. The apocalypse IS coming." ;) OH! OH! Dan, while I'm thinking about it -- will HDv4 (6.0 compliance) launch at the same time as 6th Edition?! Ohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohplease?!

[Chris Goodwin]

Please take this in the spirit it's intended (a completely straight question with no outside implications): were you around for the discussion of 5th?


In fact, I was. Emailed Steve my questionnaire and everything. I'd like to think I'm the reason Aid is 10 points per die and Healing works the way it does. (Anyone who wants to aim brickbats my way for that can feel free, now.)


Look to Steve's initial statements about his goals for 6th. If you need an idea of where things are going to go with the new edition, listening to what the Line Developer wants to do with it and what level of changes he's looking at are a pretty good place to start (note: not ideas that he's posting for input about, but the general direction and concepts that he posted in the top threads of this forum)

I've seen a truly ridiculous amount of wild speculation and hand-wringing over this announcement.....without much in the way of any solid backing. Those folks that are reading over what Steve's intentions are and where he's looking to take things for 6th seem to all be saying that it's looking very promising.

You yourself have said that your past experience has shown very little change between even two major revisions of the rules. I ask again, why would you suddenly jump to the conclusion that this pattern will cease and 6th will be a completely different system with completely different terminology, rules, and mechanics. When the guy behind it all has pretty much stated that this will not be the case?

Wouldn't it make more sense to go with "this will likely be very similar to past version updates" than "this will be unlike anything we have ever seen before -- Steve has given into greed and sold us all out" ?

Well, it would make more sense to assume there won't be radical changes. But:


We have six years more experience at the job of writing and designing RPGs than we did when 5E came out, and six years more experience at layout, presentation, marketing, and the like. When I wrote the 5E manuscript I had explicit instructions about what I could and could not change, regardless of my own personal feelings on the matter, and I stuck to those instructions. When we published 5E we decided to stay that course rather than have me go back and rework things from the beginning to be more in tune with what I would have preferred to do. Now I have the opportunity to re-examine the HERO System from the ground up and make any changes I think are necessary, regardless of how “radical” they might be.

and


1. Everything is up for consideration.

There are no sacred cows here, no forbidden ground, no boundaries limiting where I’m going to go in my quest to make the HERO System rules even better — and therefore no restrictions on what you can suggest to me.

Again, we don't have any way of knowing at this point what's going to be kept and what's going to be changed.

Edit: I'd like to think I'm not just being Chicken Little, and trying to dodge pieces of sky. I'm trying to bring up real concerns.

[Thia Halmades]

Edit: I'd like to think I'm not just being Chicken Little, and trying to dodge pieces of sky. I'm trying to bring up real concerns.

Diamond Spear posted a news thread some time ago about a mother who'd taken her kids car away because she found alcohol in it. The conversation derailed so badly that were "roleplaying" the kid and the mom, making all KINDS of insane inferences about how she was abusive and the kid would go down in history as being mocked and reviled and so on. And I pointed out, calmly: "How on earth did you cats get to this point when you literally have no information to support anything you're saying?"

And CrosshairCollie responded: "Dude. It's the internet. We don't need facts."

Point being: Chris, take at face value I respect you as an individual and read your posts and value your opinion. We're both Giant Robot Junkies and we share very common interests and from what I've seen and we've discussed, very common playstyles. At the end of the day -- at the end of THIS DAY -- we do not have ANY information that would lead us to believe that the sky is falling. Steve hasn't started writing yet.

Steve hasn't even posted any new RULES yet. He's just brought up things that HE gets questions about. This is The Can of Worms. All those times Steve said "I don't answer design/philosophy questions?" Now I know why. Because he was told to keep HERO a specific way. And now he's had the handcuffs taken off and he can do it "his" way.

I may not like his way. I may freaking HATE his way (for all I loved the Big Book of Beating Ass, it never made its way into a game), but I want more granularity, better vehicle construction rules, and a new book on Giant Robots far more than I want to worry about whether I won't like 6E. So I'm choosing to be optimistic. I think anything else at this point is crying Wolf.

We don't know, but honestly, other than some of my books read like law texts, I love everything I have. I have no reason to believe that I won't at least "really like" 6E, and i'm hoping I love it as much as 5ER.

[Chris Goodwin]

Diamond Spear posted a news thread some time ago about a mother who'd taken her kids car away because she found alcohol in it. The conversation derailed so badly that were "roleplaying" the kid and the mom, making all KINDS of insane inferences about how she was abusive and the kid would go down in history as being mocked and reviled and so on. And I pointed out, calmly: "How on earth did you cats get to this point when you literally have no information to support anything you're saying?"

And CrosshairCollie responded: "Dude. It's the internet. We don't need facts."

Point being: Chris, take at face value I respect you as an individual and read your posts and value your opinion. We're both Giant Robot Junkies and we share very common interests and from what I've seen and we've discussed, very common playstyles. At the end of the day -- at the end of THIS DAY -- we do not have ANY information that would lead us to believe that the sky is falling. Steve hasn't started writing yet.

Steve hasn't even posted any new RULES yet. He's just brought up things that HE gets questions about. This is The Can of Worms. All those times Steve said "I don't answer design/philosophy questions?" Now I know why. Because he was told to keep HERO a specific way. And now he's had the handcuffs taken off and he can do it "his" way.

I may not like his way. I may freaking HATE his way (for all I loved the Big Book of Beating Ass, it never made its way into a game), but I want more granularity, better vehicle construction rules, and a new book on Giant Robots far more than I want to worry about whether I won't like 6E. So I'm choosing to be optimistic. I think anything else at this point is crying Wolf.

We don't know, but honestly, other than some of my books read like law texts, I love everything I have. I have no reason to believe that I won't at least "really like" 6E, and i'm hoping I love it as much as 5ER.

Garrrr. You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours.

Really, I'm going to try to stay reasonable.

[Thia Halmades]

Garrrr. You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours.

Really, I'm going to try to stay reasonable.

That's all I'm asking of anyone. I'm trying to be the voice of reason here. I'm a 6thgnostic. I neither believe that 6th is great, nor do I believe 6th is bad. I think that the concept of me putting in my 0.02 is pretty awesome, and I choose to be upbeat about it because it's gonna happen anyway. May as well enjoy it. :D

And you can rep me as soon as the cycle comes 'round. We all know Thia loves his rep. ;)

[Akiva]

No, but you end up with new people effectively speaking a different language, and a harder time finding players for your favorite version of the game.

You're going to have that problem anyway. If HERO 6th doesn't come out, the influx of new HERO players will continue to be as it has been. People who get into HERO because of the new edition will get into it to play the new edition. Those players would probably have never been part of some pool of untapped 5ER players that you could tap into; they would've stayed playing whatever game they were playing.

As for 5ER players moving to 6E diminishing that pool of potential players, then, well, yes, that's a valid argument and it's always the one fairly indefensible example of the rifts caused by new editions. It's the one casualty that can't really be assuaged between editions even if the new edition is very similar to the old; there will be differences (in HERO's case, most likely in Character Point levels and costs) enough to make direct play impossible without some kind of conversion.


Like it or not, helping people's investments in books keep their value can be a valid reason for minimizing forward incompatibility.

And I'm sure that Steve wants to achieve as much backward compatibility as he can but a line has to be drawn somewhere. On the other hand, just because one has spent x amount of dollars doesn't guarantee anything. No one is owed anything because they've invested so much. You've bought books, not stock in a company. I don't mean to be dismissive but there was never any guarantee of life expectancy of those books.

As I wrote above, I make money and I budget for game purchases. I expect to buy so much per year and if I'm buying new 6E books rather than new 5E books, it's still the same to my bank account. And, of my 5E books, I'll still get a lot of use out of them.

On the other hand, with all this handwaving about GURPS 4E, I'd like to point out that SJG clearly recognizes this problem and, unlike 3E books, 4E books are more background information rather than rules crunch. Those books will be useful whether you're playing 4E, 3E, or some other game. Now, having written that, I absolutely adore that HERO 5E supplements are as crunchy as the main rulebook. I love how crunchy HERO is all around.

So, I'm not entirely unsympathetic and I agree that HERO 6E shouldn't be a radical redesign but, being a newcomer to the game, and having only read 5ER, I can see where a new edition is very much needed. I have around 30 years of RPG experience, and most of it with heavy games, and HERO is still sometimes confusing, difficult to learn, and incredibly overwhelming.

But, I still maintain that you have two choices with any game system: new editions or the game going out of print.

[Enforcer84]

You're going to have that problem anyway. If HERO 6th doesn't come out, the influx of new HERO players will continue to be as it has been. People who get into HERO because of the new edition will get into it to play the new edition. Those players would probably have never been part of some pool of untapped 5ER players that you could tap into; they would've stayed playing whatever game they were playing.

As for 5ER players moving to 6E diminishing that pool of potential players, then, well, yes, that's a valid argument and it's always the one fairly indefensible example of the rifts caused by new editions. It's the one casualty that can't really be assuaged between editions even if the new edition is very similar to the old; there will be differences (in HERO's case, most likely in Character Point levels and costs) enough to make direct play impossible without some kind of conversion.



And I'm sure that Steve wants to achieve as much backward compatibility as he can but a line has to be drawn somewhere. On the other hand, just because one has spent x amount of dollars doesn't guarantee anything. No one is owed anything because they've invested so much. You've bought books, not stock in a company. I don't mean to be dismissive but there was never any guarantee of life expectancy of those books.

As I wrote above, I make money and I budget for game purchases. I expect to buy so much per year and if I'm buying new 6E books rather than new 5E books, it's still the same to my bank account. And, of my 5E books, I'll still get a lot of use out of them.

On the other hand, with all this handwaving about GURPS 4E, I'd like to point out that SJG clearly recognizes this problem and, unlike 3E books, 4E books are more background information rather than rules crunch. Those books will be useful whether you're playing 4E, 3E, or some other game. Now, having written that, I absolutely adore that HERO 5E supplements are as crunchy as the main rulebook. I love how crunchy HERO is all around.

So, I'm not entirely unsympathetic and I agree that HERO 6E shouldn't be a radical redesign but, being a newcomer to the game, and having only read 5ER, I can see where a new edition is very much needed. I have around 30 years of RPG experience, and most of it with heavy games, and HERO is still sometimes confusing, difficult to learn, and incredibly overwhelming.

But, I still maintain that you have two choices with any game system: new editions or the game going out of print.
True.
And if they go to a new edition and we don't buy all the new books again they might go out of print.

ILike I said above I'll wait until I've seen it before I pass judgement on 6th. I doubt however, that I'll be buying much more.

[Xotl]

Hero is not its rules, but a philosophy: the ability to do anything. There are very few mechanics that, removed, make the game no longer Hero. Now, that having been said, radical change is *not* the same thing as simplification and streamlining. The goal should be for Hero to have the power to do everything it could do in the past, with less time, more intuitiveness, and possibly a lower word count. If that means that some things are removed, renamed, or simplified, then that's fine, as long as it serves the main goal.

Can Hero work the same with a couple of stats trimmmed? Yes. Do we need four attack powers when one will do? No. How about the number of defenses? Obviously not. Does there need to be three different power frameworks? I don't believe so.

Ultimately I want to be able to make the same bat-winged three-headed explosive allergic-to-jello firebreathing hellspawn from Dimension X character in 6th that I could in 5th, only faster and with the need for less reading and writing. Any increase in clarity and reduction in rules is to be applauded. It's only once you've hit the point where I can't do something, or that you make change for the sake of change, that you've gone too far.

[Kirby]

Many fans are likely to ask “Why now for 6E?” or “Is 6E really necessary?”...We have three main reasons for this:

1. We can make the game better.


2. Reason #2 withheld pending the Big Announcement on February 18, 2008.So has Reason # 2 been announced somewhere? And is there a #3 reason or did Steve miscount?

Reminds me of a Jerry Springer slice where he asks a woman to "give [him] a number between one and three," and she says "Four."

[Enforcer84]

Hero is not its rules, but a philosophy: the ability to do anything. There are very few mechanics that, removed, make the game no longer Hero. Now, that having been said, radical change is *not* the same thing as simplification and streamlining. The goal should be for Hero to have the power to do everything it could do in the past, with less time, more intuitiveness, and possibly a lower word count. If that means that some things are removed, renamed, or simplified, then that's fine, as long as it serves the main goal.

Can Hero work the same with a couple of stats trimmmed? Yes. Do we need four attack powers when one will do? No. How about the number of defenses? Obviously not. Does there need to be three different power frameworks? I don't believe so.

Ultimately I want to be able to make the same bat-winged three-headed explosive allergic-to-jello firebreathing hellspawn from Dimension X character in 6th that I could in 5th, only faster and with the need for less reading and writing. Any increase in clarity and reduction in rules is to be applauded. It's only once you've hit the point where I can't do something, or that you make change for the sake of change, that you've gone too far.

I have to disagree. They did that with Fuzion, it didn't fly...the influx of new blood did not stem the bleeding from the old guard leaving. There might be other factors in the falure of Champions: New Millennium, but that's what it looked like to me. And I bought the new stuff only to convert it to 4th Ed hero. Also, Fuzion had Heroic STR and Superheroic STR...Thia? Take a look at it.;)

[SAVeira]

I have to disagree. They did that with Fuzion, it didn't fly...the influx of new blood did not stem the bleeding from the old guard leaving. There might be other factors in the falure of Champions: New Millennium, but that's what it looked like to me. And I bought the new stuff only to convert it to 4th Ed hero. Also, Fuzion had Heroic STR and Superheroic STR...Thia? Take a look at it.;)
I did the same thing. I almost get banned from the AOL Hero Games section at the time, when I stated have much trouble I was having converting from Fuzion to 4th Edition Hero. I enjoyed the setting but hated Fuzion.

[GloryFox]

You have GOT to be kidding me I just sold HERO as a final system to my game buddies. No more buying GURPS books, No more buying d20 etc.... and you pull this out.

SO is this a big translation from 5th to 6th or a little one?

[ghost-angel]

I, for one, remain undyingly optimistic.

If we go in positively we can make positive change, if we go in negatively we will only hurt the process.

To quote Anthrax

"Turn It Up. Bring The Noise."

[Lucius]

In fact, I was. Emailed Steve my questionnaire and everything. I'd like to think I'm the reason Aid is 10 points per die and Healing works the way it does. (Anyone who wants to aim brickbats my way for that can feel free, now.)


Consider yourself beaned with brickbat. (For the Healing. I eventually decided the Aid change was not so bad.)



Hero is not its rules, but a philosophy: the ability to do anything. There are very few mechanics that, removed, make the game no longer Hero. Now, that having been said, radical change is *not* the same thing as simplification and streamlining. The goal should be for Hero to have the power to do everything it could do in the past, with less time, more intuitiveness, and possibly a lower word count. If that means that some things are removed, renamed, or simplified, then that's fine, as long as it serves the main goal.
Agreed

Can Hero work the same with a couple of stats trimmmed? Yes.

Hero could work without COMeliness, but one stat is not “a couple.”



Do we need four attack powers when one will do? No.

I assume you’re suggesting that Energy Blast, Hand to Hand Attack, Hand to Hand Killing Attack, and Ranged Killing Attack, can be folded into one power with the difference between Ranged and Hand to Hand a kind of “toggle” like the difference between Physical and Energy, and the difference between Normal and Killing being a Limitation, Advantage, Adder, or “Addervantage” like Resistant Defenses is?



How about the number of defenses? Obviously not.

Perhaps not.



Does there need to be three different power frameworks? I don't believe so.

I could possibly see eliminating Elemental Control…you could perhaps make it a Limitation, “Grouped Powers,” that means if any power in the group is Drained, etc. then they all are.

But now we’re getting into specifics that should probably go into the appropriate, specific threads.

Lucius Alexander

And an appropriate specific palindromedary

[TSandman]

Because some people have spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars on books that they don't want to see be made useless.

I don't want to see any more changes made between fifth and sixth than were made between fourth and fifth, or third and fourth.

I can still, with minor tweaks, use materials released for third edition with 5e. If I can't do that with sixth edition, I'm a lot less likely to want to get into it.


Speaking as a newbie that only lately got back on the HERO train, I can say that I've plunked money into those books in the last 3 months:
5er
Sidekick
Equip. Handbook
Hero Bestiary
Pulp Hero
Star Hero
Dark Champion
Fantasy Hero
Valdorian Age
Turakian Age
The Hero Grimoire I
Monsters Minions and Marauders
Enchanted ItemsWhat I really wouldn't like would be to have to either dump em' all or ignore all the new stuff...

And I will now have to tell two of my friends that just bought 5er last month...

I WANT to play Hero. We've searched for a system that we like and for once, the "silent majority" of our own gaming group is vocaly behind something. I just hope it'll not be too drastic (à la D&D 4th/NWoD) to be able to use the majority of the stuff we've just bought.

Edit: Not that I'll be on the street for all the books I've bought already, but I like my stuff to be minimally usefull. Oh, and we've yet to play a single game**, but we're working on it

As an aside, having begun reading the Combat section of 5er (just finished reading EVERY powers with their advantages and limitations), one thing that could bring a breath of fresh air could be less dense terminology/accronyms. I mean, some of those sounds like parts of political speech written in the 80's by Politically-Correct-Living-Entities-Inabiting-The-World-Known-As-Earth-Be-It-Of-The-Male-Or-Female_Gender... but don't do a 180 either, I hate it when terminology is randomly re-generated just to "soud kewl!" (ie: nWoD) to the point where we don't know what is what.

** Yes, I'm a completist, I like to have the whole range of stuff, bad habit of mine, I know ;)

[Bygoneyrs]

For me I hate the idea of going to 6e, especially since I DROPPED D&D 3.5e because they went to 4e. depending of what they do, I might just drop Hero's too. I have spent alot of money of 5e and too, what have to buy NEW UPDATED books because they want to add a few new rules to and get everyone to rebuy their books again. Do they think people are going to fall for that, that is what TSR did with D&D.

Penn

[GloryFox]

For me I hate the idea of going to 6e, especially since I DROPPED D&D 3.5e because they went to 4e. depending of what they do, I might just drop Hero's too. I have spent alot of money of 5e and too, what have to buy NEW UPDATED books because they want to add a few new rules to and get everyone to rebuy their books again. Do they think people are going to fall for that, that is what TSR did with D&D.

QFT,

my sell on the HERO system to my group of gamers, is that the HERO system has basically been unchanged since early 1990, and even then many of the core rules were not changed since 1979. Moving from that system to 5th was easy as pie. Moving to 5th ed Revised a big piece of cake. Moving to 6ed just might cause my game group to give up RPG's overall or return to GURPS out of print editions.

First GURPS goes to a new edition and FAILS, D&D to a new edition with anger and frustration from the most devoted fans. My group is very upset about this and refuses even under threat of death to buy anything from WOTC ever again period. HERO was our hope for a stable game system we can evolve into any genre we wanted and the system works well too.

The more I think about it the more I'm getting mad about it. HERO needed very few to no changes. Seems to me that this is a money ploy at best from bad marketing ideology and not understanding the psychology of your market base. Rather than allowing your player base to slowly take advantage of the disenfranchised from the d20 crowd, and grow your market. You are disenfranchising your smaller player base altogether by having them buy more books they already have just like WoTC. Heck even our hard core Traveler GURPS game was going to change over to HERO Traveler. I guess we can kiss that good by too.



As many of you have read by now in our new CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG forum, Cryptic Studios has bought the Champions intellectual property and will release a massive multiplayer online role-playing game based on it in 2009. That gives us access to a whole new customer base that’s never been exposed to our products before, and we want to publish books (primarily Champions books) that will appeal to them.

That’s awesome I’m happy for you guys. I hope you can make some money through this. Keep in mind that a failed MMO can hurt your business as well, and there are many failed MMO’s on the market currently. Yes I know there are many RPG's that have failed too, but HERO survived because it was unique in its design and has remained mostly unchanged since 1979. Please try and keep the changes to an extreme minimum. If you can do this then people will continue to purchase HERO products another 10 years from now. Residual income from a good "stable" product that works is a good thing.


That means reworking the books to attract their interest, such as by using art from the MMO and organizing the material to suit someone whose background is in MMOs rather than true RPGs (but without, I hasten to add, making the books less useful and appealing to our traditional RPG playing fans and customers). As long as we’re going to have to make changes along those lines, it’s the perfect opportunity to also make changes to the rules engine. (Though again, to make things perfectly clear, I am not changing the HERO System to work like an MMO, Cryptic Studios does not own the HERO System rules, and the CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG does not use the HERO System rules for character creation, task or combat resolution, or anything else.) To put it another way, as long as we’ve got the hood open to change the oil we might as well replace the spark plugs if it looks like they need it.

Those spark plugs still have life. As much as I applaud the news and am quite happy for the HERO system getting publicity, ANet’s Guild Wars 2 comes out next year as well and it’s free. Guess what I’ll be playing online and guess what I’ll be playing with pen and paper once a week? That 15$ a month will be going to game books, hopefully HERO 5th ed R. games books, not to Cryptic Studio.

Seems to me you can keep the 5ed R as is, since you won’t be changing to fit Cryptic’s rendition of Champions. Any changes you make should be minor or not at all. I vote for none at all and focus on creating genre books. Then you can spend the summer marketing to disenfranchised d20 fanatics. Tell them your system is stable (and it currently is BTW.)

[CourtFool]

Yeah...just like that Tolkien guy. Why did he have to go and ruin the Hobbit by coming out with stupid Lord of the Rings stuff. We had hobbits, dwarves and wizards...we didn't need rangers.

[Spudboy]

My thoughts exactly. I'll be done with Hero if this is the case....



Well, the main problem I have is that I'll be waiting another 5 years to get books I don't already own. A big part of why I loved GURPS 3rd (and HERO 5th) is that they had an incredibly diverse array of books on the market.

With the GURPS relaunch, what have they released? Gee, Rules, Martial Arts, Powers, Bio-Tech, High-Tech, Space, Fantasy... blah blah blah. ALL the same stuff already done for 3rd, just facelifted. I want something NEW.

Same thing will happen with HERO - heck, it's even on the 2009 schedule. What books does HERO get after 6th launches? Martial Arts, Sidekick, Champions, and Champions Universe. I suppose Space, Fantasy, and Dark Champions will follow, along with UNTIL and VIPER sourcebooks, Pulp, villain books...

Anybody else see what I'm getting at here? It's like the 'new book' days are over. Time to go back and redo all the stuff we've all got. That's why I bailed on GURPS, and why I'm tentative about HERO.

[ghost-angel]

The Door.... That Way ------->

[memorax300]

Actually I will be very unhappy if they keep everything as is. There are many aspects of the Hero Games rules that can be improved on. Some of the rules in some cases are unessarily complex. Some have duplicate effects. There is no reason for that. Please spare me the "if it's not complicated it's not the Hero System" line of thinking because that is a major copout.

Hero Games needs new fans. Most imo want a simpler system. You can bet that seeing the size of the core book and the sheer amount of rules is not going to get them in for the most part. THe younger crowd unlike the older gamers like myself want to start using a system as soon as the buy it. They also don't want it to be a chore. For many the rules as they are feels like a chore. Which is why they choose other easier systems.

With a new edition they could also improve the quality of the layout and art. Espcially the art which has been lacking as of late imo. I would not mind the boks being in color either.

There comes a time when every game designer for good or bad has to do hs own thing and not be held hostage by the fans. For Steve Long this his time. I understand that some fans will be angry an unhappy about the new edition. Yet also remember that the company needs to make money. Usually the fastest but not not necessarily the smartest is to make a new edition.

As for people not buying 6ED no one can say for sure. That is what 3ED fans said about 3.5. Yet a lage chunck still bought 3.5. It also comes down to the willingness of wanting to convert the 5ED stuff into 6ED stuff. Myself I'm in no mood to do it and will probably get 6ED as I have more important things to do with my time.

[TygerLily]

Steve, is the 3rd reason coming soon? Because post #1 said 3 reasons and I only see 2. :)

[McCoy]

2. To take advantage of the opportunities presented by the release of the CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG.

As many of you have read by now in our new CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG forum, Cryptic Studios has bought the Champions intellectual property and will release a massive multiplayer online roleplaying game based on it in 2009. That gives us access to a whole new customer base that’s never been exposed to our products before, and we want to publish books (primarily Champions books) that will appeal to them. That means reworking the books to attract their interest, such as by using art from the MMO and organizing the material to suit someone whose background is in MMOs rather than true RPGs (but without, I hasten to add, making the books less useful and appealing to our traditional RPG playing fans and customers). As long as we’re going to have to make changes along those lines, it’s the perfect opportunity to also make changes to the rules engine. (Though again, to make things perfectly clear, I am not changing the HERO System to work like an MMO, Cryptic Studios does not own the HERO System rules, and the CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG does not use the HERO System rules for character creation, task or combat resolution, or anything else.) To put it another way, as long as we’ve got the hood open to change the oil we might as well replace the spark plugs if it looks like they need it. ;)
Sign me up for the beta testing.

I bought the First edition, second, 3 and 3.5, the Big Blue Book, the late and entirely unlamented Fuzion, FRED and 5ER. I've owned the HeroMaker, Hero Creator, and Hero Designer software. I'll try the MMORPG, and 6th, but --

== please don't make this another Fuzion fiasco.

[memorax300]

== please don't make this another Fuzion fiasco.

Seconded. And make sure that the next edition come out in 2019. 10 years from 6ED. Otherwise too many editions too often can get the fanbase angry.

[Akiva]

To all of you who are making these knee-jerk threats about quitting HERO if 6E is published, what are you expecting? Are you really expecting Steve to see these threats and say, 'Oh my golly gosh! I certainly didn't mean to offend your delicate sensibilities! Tell you what, let's pretend that none of this silly talk about 6E ever happened. Would you like some milk and cookies now?'

It always tickles me to no end when people think that their personal opinions carry such a great weight with anyone other than themselves especially when they think this kind of negative talk will somehow influence anything or anyone. It's like people who get bad service at Applebee's running around shouting about how they're starting a one-person boycott and never eating there again. Last I checked, Applebee's is doing just fine.

I don't mean to be harsh here but, seriously, if that's your attitude, see ya. I absolutely cannot stand this pervasive sense of self-entitlement that so many people seem to have.

If Steve just gets rid of hexes and inches for meters, that's enough for me to buy 6E. If he gets rid of Superheroes, I'll buy two.

[Akiva]

Yeah, okay, that last post is definitely more harsh and aggressive than I intended it to be. I'm not going to change it because I do believe in what I wrote but I want to addend this response to note that I recognize the poor quality of its attitude.

I have already administered the appropriate number of beatings to myself. Also, to increase my punishment, I'm not allowing myself to read any HERO stuff tonight.

Ouch.

[memorax300]

To all of you who are making these knee-jerk threats about quitting HERO if 6E is published, what are you expecting? Are you really expecting Steve to see these threats and say, 'Oh my golly gosh! I certainly didn't mean to offend your delicate sensibilities! Tell you what, let's pretend that none of this silly talk about 6E ever happened. Would you like some milk and cookies now?'

It always tickles me to no end when people think that their personal opinions carry such a great weight with anyone other than themselves especially when they think this kind of negative talk will somehow influence anything or anyone. It's like people who get bad service at Applebee's running around shouting about how they're starting a one-person boycott and never eating there again. Last I checked, Applebee's is doing just fine.

I don't mean to be harsh here but, seriously, if that's your attitude, see ya. I absolutely cannot stand this pervasive sense of self-entitlement that so many people seem to have.

If Steve just gets rid of hexes and inches for meters, that's enough for me to buy 6E. If he gets rid of Superheroes, I'll buy two.

Pretty much agree and seconded on all points.

[caris]

If he gets rid of Superheroes, I'll buy two.

Than I hope that Steve does get rid of Superheroes, because if the rules changes are so minor that I can still use my 5th Ed book, I have to question the need for a new edition and I won't be buying a copy of the new edition. If he changes the rules so much that I can't use my 5th Ed book, I won't be buying any 6th Ed product. So the extra sale of 6th Ed to you can make up for the non-sale to me.

[Kirby]

To all of you who are making these knee-jerk threats about quitting HERO if 6E is published, what are you expecting? Obviously something different from what you're thinking. Some people have seen Champions go from good to Fuzion. Some people have seen 2E D&D go to 3E, 3.5 and 4E. Some have seen d10 L5R go to d20 or d6 Star Wars go to d20. Most people who have seen this have seen good gaming systems go to worse gaming systems and they don't want the same to happen to d6 HERO.

Still, others don't have a large amount of flexible income. HERO books are not cheap. Not all of us can afford to purchase 6th Ed, which its starting line-up will involve purchasing book titles we already have.

The threat to the game system lies in Steve's line of "Everything is up for consideration" emphasized with "there are no sacred cows." Star Wars Galaxies had millions of subscribers when it was new. Then someone decided for a radical change and now Star Wars Galaxies has maybe one to two hundred thousand subscribers. (Around the world.)

While I'm waiting to see what the end result is, I won't be purchasing any 6th Ed books in which I already have 5th Ed if they're compatible; I don't have that kind of expendable income any more. If it's a completely different monster with the same name (like the "Godzilla" movie Matthew Broderick was in), then this will be a good time for me to exit the RPG world.

[nexus]

To all of you who are making these knee-jerk threats about quitting HERO if 6E is published, what are you expecting? Are you really expecting Steve to see these threats and say, 'Oh my golly gosh! I certainly didn't mean to offend your delicate sensibilities! Tell you what, let's pretend that none of this silly talk about 6E ever happened. Would you like some milk and cookies now?'

It always tickles me to no end when people think that their personal opinions carry such a great weight with anyone other than themselves especially when they think this kind of negative talk will somehow influence anything or anyone. It's like people who get bad service at Applebee's running around shouting about how they're starting a one-person boycott and never eating there again. Last I checked, Applebee's is doing just fine.

I don't mean to be harsh here but, seriously, if that's your attitude, see ya. I absolutely cannot stand this pervasive sense of self-entitlement that so many people seem to have.

If Steve just gets rid of hexes and inches for meters, that's enough for me to buy 6E. If he gets rid of Superheroes, I'll buy two.

So anyone with a negative opinion should just STFU? So I guess you'll stop griping about the presence of superheroes in the Champions, oh excuse me, Hero rules?

I seriously doubt anyone that says they don't like changes and they're employed they'll quit expect Steve Long to keel over and beg them to come back. If enough people say it could, ya know, be an indicator you're moving in the wrong direction when people that have supported your game line for approaching 30 years are thinking of packing it in. No one has to like everything because it's printed in the books. Saying your thinking of packing it in IS an indication of how strongly you feel about the issue not saying your personal opinion is going to sway Steve Long way or the other.

The purpose of the board was to ask for opinions. He's getting them. Yeah, if some of these changes are employed its simply not worth my money to reinvest in all these books over again. I'll stick with what I have or move onto another system, perhaps GURPS. The superior and condescending attitude some members are giving off in this discussion is really starting to get under my skin. I'll see what comes to pass but frankly, I'm not happy with majority of whats been proposed. It's not an expectation of "entitlement" its expectation of useful enjoyable product for the cash I lay down. Hero Games doesn't give the books for free and I don't enjoy them they're not going to get my money. Simple as that. I don't expect the lose of me as a customer to collapse Hero games.

[Enforcer84]

To all of you who are making these knee-jerk threats about quitting HERO if 6E is published, what are you expecting? Are you really expecting Steve to see these threats and say, 'Oh my golly gosh! I certainly didn't mean to offend your delicate sensibilities! Tell you what, let's pretend that none of this silly talk about 6E ever happened. Would you like some milk and cookies now?'

It always tickles me to no end when people think that their personal opinions carry such a great weight with anyone other than themselves especially when they think this kind of negative talk will somehow influence anything or anyone. It's like people who get bad service at Applebee's running around shouting about how they're starting a one-person boycott and never eating there again. Last I checked, Applebee's is doing just fine.

I don't mean to be harsh here but, seriously, if that's your attitude, see ya. I absolutely cannot stand this pervasive sense of self-entitlement that so many people seem to have.

If Steve just gets rid of hexes and inches for meters, that's enough for me to buy 6E. If he gets rid of Superheroes, I'll buy two.
What a funny sheep. You and the Llama should travel the world solving crimes or something. :)


We built this game on Superheroes and we'll still be here when you pansies are all gone :D

[Pattern Ghost]

2. To take advantage of the opportunities presented by the release of the CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG.

As many of you have read by now in our new CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG forum . . .

I can't find the new Champions Online MMORPG forum. Am I just blind? If it's up, can someone provide linkage please?

Oh, and the potential effect this will have on the artwork in the book is nice, IMO.

[Kirby]

If he gets rid of Superheroes, I'll buy two.

Than I hope that Steve does get rid of Superheroes, because if the rules changes are so minor that I can still use my 5th Ed book, I have to question the need for a new edition and I won't be buying a copy of the new edition. If he changes the rules so much that I can't use my 5th Ed book, I won't be buying any 6th Ed product. So the extra sale of 6th Ed to you can make up for the non-sale to me.While I'm thinking Akiva's statement is rhetorical hyperbole, he'll possibly need to buy three, or get a friend to buy two. My sole joy with HERO has been playing the superhero genre. I've been in a FtF Fantasy Hero game that wasn't much fun as well as an online Alien Wars game that was horrible as well.

I have a DRAGON magazine around my place that had a great line. It said (paraphrasing) "If you make a 2nd Edition D&D, make it good enough so you don't need a 3rd Edition." D&D had a great system that went more or less unchanged for decades. Then when 3rd edition hit....

If 6th Edition is compatible with 4th & 5th, there's no harm or foul if it the rules are good enough to last ten or twenty years.

[ghost-angel]

So anyone with a negative opinion should just STFU?

Steve's Rules For This Forum:
7. Sarcasm, cynicism, and snideness are not appropriate. If you can’t participate in this discussion without some optimism, some respect, some diplomacy, or at least the ability to keep your negative personality traits to yourself, you’re not going to be allowed to keep taking part. This needs to be a constructive dialogue, not a destructive one.


So - to be stunningly blunt - yes you should.

Contribute something, a suggestion, and idea, discussion on other suggestions or ideas. Even a "No, I don't like that, I like this" is better than negativity.

But just complaining? Take it somewhere else, please.

[Enforcer84]

They started it!

[gregghelmberger]

To all of you who are making these knee-jerk threats about quitting HERO if 6E is published, what are you expecting? Are you really expecting Steve to see these threats and say, 'Oh my golly gosh! I certainly didn't mean to offend your delicate sensibilities! Tell you what, let's pretend that none of this silly talk about 6E ever happened. Would you like some milk and cookies now?'

It always tickles me to no end when people think that their personal opinions carry such a great weight with anyone other than themselves especially when they think this kind of negative talk will somehow influence anything or anyone. It's like people who get bad service at Applebee's running around shouting about how they're starting a one-person boycott and never eating there again. Last I checked, Applebee's is doing just fine.

I don't mean to be harsh here but, seriously, if that's your attitude, see ya. I absolutely cannot stand this pervasive sense of self-entitlement that so many people seem to have.

If Steve just gets rid of hexes and inches for meters, that's enough for me to buy 6E. If he gets rid of Superheroes, I'll buy two.

I think this is a bit ridiculous. Opinions were solicited and are being given. That's what these threads are for. Nobody expects a single person walking away from the product to change anyone's mind. However, the only power consumers have is to voice their opinions and then vote with their feet. If changes are bad, then you quit the product and find something else to do with your money. A single person doing this has no effect, but thousands of single people doing it has a big effect indeed.

A similar situation happened with me and Marvel Comics. I strongly disliked the direction their editorial staff was taking the line, told their editors as much and stopped buying their products. A Quixotic gesture? Maybe. But that's my power as a consumer. I stopped liking their product and so I stopped buying it and informed them why. Like Applebee's, Marvel Comics is doing just fine. They're just doing it without my money. And that's a perfectly valid response whether you like it or not.

[nexus]

Steve's Rules For This Forum:
7. Sarcasm, cynicism, and snideness are not appropriate.






If you can’t participate in this discussion without some optimism, some respect, some diplomacy, or at least the ability to keep your negative personality traits to yourself, you’re not going to be allowed to keep taking part. This needs to be a constructive dialogue, not a destructive one.


Then you might want to address the post I quoted as well.



Contribute something, a suggestion, and idea, discussion on other suggestions or ideas. Even a "No, I don't like that, I like this" is better than negativity.

But just complaining? Take it somewhere else, please.

Actually, I've contributed several threads and I have been civil. There not a requirement for opinions to be positive and saying "If this is changed, I won't be buying Hero products anymore" is saying "I don't like that, I like this" this being the way it is now. I don't want to see this changed is as valid an opinion as any other. But there has been a great deal of snark and condescension from some posters in discussion and it's largely been ignored unless it comes from one of the "haters". It's a ridiculous double standard and Akiva's post was the straw that broke my back.

[JmOz]

While I agree with Ghost Angel 95% on this, I do think that allowing the powers to be know we are unhappy with the idea has some value to it as well. There is a tendancy for people to feel that change for change's sake is a good thing, or that we can't change something because it has always been that way is a good thing. Neither is, change is neither good nor bad, it is just change. I will not say I am happy with this turn of events, I think the system is fine as it is, except for some fine tuning.

I also need to question the wisdom of changing a system that was able to keep a rabid fan base when the system was all but dead for how many years? Steve and Darren have both said (and i am paraphasing here) it was how the fans hung on that made them decide to revive it, I feel that if you change things to much you may destroy what kept those fans holding on, and really would that be a good idea? I am trying to prevent my negatism from preventing me from contributing, and like I said I do think that Ghost Angel is almost completly right about this, I do think that the negatism some of us feel can be turned to make sure the true essence of hero, that which let me "Survive Cybergames", and survive Fuzion, and the days where we were all but dead, remains. So for those who are negative about this, keep that negatism, let it be the fire in your gut that lets us transform a great game into something better, let us not succumb to the negatism, but let it steel are resolve, work with those who wish to change it, so the radicals who say "Change it Change it, change it" can hear "But this has worked for 25+ years, your idea is trendy, but that does not make it good". And keep and open mind, we all have are issues that we wish could be changed, maybe we can polish up some of the tarnish the game has aquired, and make it look good.

Hey if nothing else we might get rid of the stupid name dark champions for the modern day game...

[ghost-angel]

Then you might want to address the post I quoted as well.

My post was directed at EVERYONE.

you just had the million dollar question.

Question the wisdom? Sure.
Question the reasons? Sure.

But there is a POSITIVE way to express not liking an idea. And then there's just complaining and whining and moaning about it.

If a possible rules change just makes you cringe in terror (I have my personal demons in those Hero Points things) fine. But you can bring forth a Positive Suggestion that's an Alternate Solution.

IMO - just saying "Nope, don't like it." is NOT ENOUGH. Suggest an alternative, create a reason for Steve (and everyone else) to listen to you.

[James Gillen]

I have a DRAGON magazine around my place that had a great line. It said (paraphrasing) "If you make a 2nd Edition D&D, make it good enough so you don't need a 3rd Edition." D&D had a great system that went more or less unchanged for decades. Then when 3rd edition hit....

The problem being that AD&D 2nd was screwed enough that they DID need a 3rd Edition. And that was good, IMO, but it got an even bigger case of rules bloat. At least HERO isn't in that situation.

JG

[nexus]

While I agree with Ghost Angel 95% on this, I do think that allowing the powers to be know we are unhappy with the idea has some value to it as well. There is a tendancy for people to feel that change for change's sake is a good thing, or that we can't change something because it has always been that way is a good thing. Neither is, change is neither good nor bad, it is just change. I will not say I am happy with this turn of events, I think the system is fine as it is, except for some fine tuning.

I also need to question the wisdom of changing a system that was able to keep a rabid fan base when the system was all but dead for how many years? Steve and Darren have both said (and i am paraphasing here) it was how the fans hung on that made them decide to revive it, I feel that if you change things to much you may destroy what kept those fans holding on, and really would that be a good idea? I am trying to prevent my negatism from preventing me from contributing, and like I said I do think that Ghost Angel is almost completly right about this, I do think that the negatism some of us feel can be turned to make sure the true essence of hero, that which let me "Survive Cybergames", and survive Fuzion, and the days where we were all but dead, remains. So for those who are negative about this, keep that negatism, let it be the fire in your gut that lets us transform a great game into something better, let us not succumb to the negatism, but let it steel are resolve, work with those who wish to change it, so the radicals who say "Change it Change it, change it" can hear "But this has worked for 25+ years, your idea is trendy, but that does not make it good". And keep and open mind, we all have are issues that we wish could be changed, maybe we can polish up some of the tarnish the game has aquired, and make it look good.

Hey if nothing else we might get rid of the stupid name dark champions for the modern day game...

I wil wait and see what develops and offer my opinions on it. I didn't think the Steve Long started this forum for people to blow sunshine up his skirt about 6th edition but for an open discussion about the proposal and what the fanbase on this forum feels about them. And one side getting shouted down and insulted for their opinions does not contribute to an open and meaningful discussion. If a proposed change makes a customer feel like dropping the product line. It's something the producers of that product should know about. It might not change their minds, of course, but I feel its important knowledge.

[nexus]

IMO - just saying "Nope, don't like it." is NOT ENOUGH. Suggest an alternative, create a reason for Steve (and everyone else) to listen to you.

Most everyone I've seen this discussion has. Even the ones that say if X is done I won't be buying it have given reasons for their decision. It's not about some sense of "entitlement" or whatever.

[James Gillen]

In fact, I was. Emailed Steve my questionnaire and everything. I'd like to think I'm the reason Aid is 10 points per die and Healing works the way it does. (Anyone who wants to aim brickbats my way for that can feel free, now.)

Gladly. :eg:



Again, we don't have any way of knowing at this point what's going to be kept and what's going to be changed.

Edit: I'd like to think I'm not just being Chicken Little, and trying to dodge pieces of sky. I'm trying to bring up real concerns.

My rationale in commenting:

HERO is fine as it is. It could be better. It could most certainly be better presented and organized, and I think 5ER was a great step in that direction. I still can't stand that yellow paper, but then my copy is PDF. ;)

The 5th Edition, as has been pointed out, was the manuscript Steve submitted to the previous owners and was kept on ice for a certain amount of time while Hero/Cybergames was in limbo. It could have been adapted even then, but when you're just trying to get the company back together, you don't want to mess with much.

And after all this time- it has been a few years- there's an opportunity to think about whether things should be changed. The company has answered "Yes" to that point. So the followup questions are about what should be changed, and why? We're at a point where we should think about the stuff that doesn't work in the core rules and should be dropped (like COM) and stuff that worked better in 4th Edition and needs to be changed back, as one example ditching Regeneration and reverse-engineering it as a subcategory of Healing, only using different mechanics and a more complicated writeup, on the rationale of "simplifying" the Powers list.

Just my opinion, of course. Which is the point. I am quite aware that this is Steve's system and he's going to be making all the decisions. But if he's given us the opportunity for feedback, I at least want to state my opinions and my reasons for them.

JG

[Kirby]

The problem being that AD&D 2nd was screwed enough that they DID need a 3rd Edition.I disagree wholeheartedly; however, this is not the thread for such a discussion.

[Enforcer84]

My post was directed at EVERYONE.

you just had the million dollar question.

Question the wisdom? Sure.
Question the reasons? Sure.

But there is a POSITIVE way to express not liking an idea. And then there's just complaining and whining and moaning about it.

If a possible rules change just makes you cringe in terror (I have my personal demons in those Hero Points things) fine. But you can bring forth a Positive Suggestion that's an Alternate Solution.

IMO - just saying "Nope, don't like it." is NOT ENOUGH. Suggest an alternative, create a reason for Steve (and everyone else) to listen to you.
I'd say if you said, in this particular case "Nope I don't like it" the implied alternative would be to not change the aspect of the game in question.

[GloryFox]

Look even I can see the need to exert some of the aspects from the Ultimate Books for a 6e book, BUT this should not be a need for creating 6e.

It does call for a need for a HERO Ultimate compendium however, and that was covered by the creation of books like the Character creation handbook. Thus prove to me the purchaser that I need 6e when in Steve Longs words.



2. The HERO System as it currently exists is a pretty solid rules system and doesn’t need a lot of significant changes.

Guiding Philosophy #1 notwithstanding, I am no fan of change for change’s sake. I’m not going to start changing things just because I have the opportunity and means to do so. I think the HERO System in its current incarnation is the best roleplaying game ever created — all I want to do is make it even better. I am contemplating some changes that are pretty significant, but for the most part I think the HERO System’s doing pretty damn well as it is.

Sorry Steve I still do not see a NEED to make another game that is already a solid system of rules. If there are aspects of the game in someones opinion that they feel will make it better than it seems more of a house rule issue than a system issue. Otherwise I will agree when you say that the "HERO System in its current incarnation is the best role playing game ever created".

PROVE TO ME THE PURCHASER THAT I NEED 6E and not continue with 5ed Revised? PROVE TO ME that I need to re buy books that are already awesome to begin with. So that I can convince my game community that 6E is the way to go.

This reminds me of when GURPS went 4th ed and my game group bought a single set of 4th ed GURPS books learned the system, played one game. Discussed it seriously, then went back to GURPS 3rd ed and have enjoyed it ever since.

I'm happy you want to discuss this and not just drop a bomb and stop making 5th ed R books. I can now look for 5th ed R sales to pick stuff up cheap as people jump ship.

Seriously Steve your better off perusing the 4th ed D&D fans that are jumping ship right now. Thats how I convinced my group to change over to HERO overall.

[Xotl]

Hero could work without COMeliness, but one stat is not “a couple.”

As you rightly mention later, specific rules arguments should go in the other threads, but in brief, if Steve carries through with his tentative plans to do away with figured characteristics then CON and BODY suddenly make a lot of sense to become one stat (hell, I'd argue you should do that now even if figureds stay the same).


I assume you’re suggesting that Energy Blast, Hand to Hand Attack, Hand to Hand Killing Attack, and Ranged Killing Attack, can be folded into one power with the difference between Ranged and Hand to Hand a kind of “toggle” like the difference between Physical and Energy, and the difference between Normal and Killing being a Limitation, Advantage, Adder, or “Addervantage” like Resistant Defenses is?

I am. But even if I'm wrong, I'd take just two attack powers, or even three. I think this is a good example of an area that could use simplification, and the results don't affect Hero's ability to model anything. The current methodology to this, and several other things I go into elsewhere, are needlessly complex: we gain nothing by having it, and lose clarity and the all-important ease of teaching. Hero must gain new players, and cleanup helps this cause.


I could possibly see eliminating Elemental Control…you could perhaps make it a Limitation, “Grouped Powers,” that means if any power in the group is Drained, etc. then they all are.

As above, I obviously imagine just one solution (a master framework) as the ideal situation, but the main goal is to keep Hero's power. As such, if it means we can "only" drop down to two frameworks, then that's still an improvement and I'm delighted.

Ultimately I want anything that makes sense to go, *without lessening Hero's flexibility*, to go, and anything that can be streamlined/clarified with the same caveat to be done as well. Stick to this guideline and almost no matter what is changed, you still have Hero, only leaner and meaner.

To Enforcer84:
Fuzion gained us simplicity, but cost us in raw modeling power - I couldn't do certain things anymore with it, which is definitely *not* what I want with 6th. Hero with just one or two attack powers and a stat removed and a few oddball Advantages folded into others is still Hero, not Fuzion II: Electric Boogaloo. I'm arguing for cleanup, not wholescale slash-and-burn revision.

[Lucius]

We're at a point where we should think about the stuff that doesn't work in the core rules and should be dropped (like COM) and stuff that worked better in 4th Edition and needs to be changed back, as one example ditching Regeneration and reverse-engineering it as a subcategory of Healing, only using different mechanics and a more complicated writeup, on the rationale of "simplifying" the Powers list.

JG

Unfortunately, Steve Long has already ruled out moving "backwards" to 4th Edition ways of doing things on anything. That may be a mistake (in this case, I certainly think so) but it's also his mistake to make.

Lucius Alexander

Keeping a wary eye on the Palindromedary

[Enforcer84]

As you rightly mention later, specific rules arguments should go in the other threads, but in brief, if Steve carries through with his tentative plans to do away with figured characteristics then CON and BODY suddenly make a lot of sense to become one stat (hell, I'd argue you should do that now even if figureds stay the same).



I am. But even if I'm wrong, I'd take just two attack powers, or even three. I think this is a good example of an area that could use simplification, and the results don't affect Hero's ability to model anything. The current methodology to this, and several other things I go into elsewhere, are needlessly complex: we gain nothing by having it, and lose clarity and the all-important ease of teaching. Hero must gain new players, and cleanup helps this cause.



As above, I obviously imagine just one solution (a master framework) as the ideal situation, but the main goal is to keep Hero's power. As such, if it means we can "only" drop down to two frameworks, then that's still an improvement and I'm delighted.

Ultimately I want anything that makes sense to go, *without lessening Hero's flexibility*, to go, and anything that can be streamlined/clarified with the same caveat to be done as well. Stick to this guideline and almost no matter what is changed, you still have Hero, only leaner and meaner.

To Enforcer84:
Fuzion gained us simplicity, but cost us in raw modeling power - I couldn't do certain things anymore with it, which is definitely *not* what I want with 6th. Hero with just one or two attack powers and a stat removed and a few oddball Advantages folded into others is still Hero, not Fuzion II: Electric Boogaloo. I'm arguing for cleanup, not wholescale slash-and-burn revision.
Well I'll wait until it actually gels more before I discount FII:EB entirely. But otherwise, yeah.

[Silverbullet]

Guys look; I know there is a lot of trepidation right now. I, like a lot of you have been through the Big Blue Book, Fuzion, D&D 2nd Edition, D&D 3/ 3.5, and Gredo firing first (shudder.) Some decisions were great others, well…er…no. I loved getting D&D 3, and I was thrilled when Hero 5th edition finally came out after Fuzion and Cyber Games didn’t pan out.

I don’t care for the way D&D 4 is going but I reserve the right to change my opinion when I see it. I can’t say I’m not a little nervous about Hero 6th but I am also excited. From all that we have seen, I have no reason what so ever to believe that Steve and Darren would steer us wrong. The products they have put out over the last several years have, by and large, been great.

My point is (if there even is one), let’s all calm down. Steve got the Classic Cadillac; he’s going to do some body work and probably some upgrades but I don’t think for a second he’s going to go out and ram it into a tree…

(please forgive any spelling or grammar issues, It’s 3am and my allergies are killing me…):ugly:

[Gadodel]

Steve's Rules For This Forum:
7. Sarcasm, cynicism, and snideness are not appropriate. If you can’t participate in this discussion without some optimism, some respect, some diplomacy, or at least the ability to keep your negative personality traits to yourself, you’re not going to be allowed to keep taking part. This needs to be a constructive dialogue, not a destructive one.


So - to be stunningly blunt - yes you should.

Contribute something, a suggestion, and idea, discussion on other suggestions or ideas. Even a "No, I don't like that, I like this" is better than negativity.

But just complaining? Take it somewhere else, please.

I like this sentiment.

I was on the Wizards Boards waaaaaaay too much when 3.0 was going to 3.5. Wow, now that was a lot of negativity. I found my way here and the level of civility was amazing. As if some Mod had megascale Mind Control and told everyone to be nice. But, of course; no such psionics was at work. Just a bunch of groovy folks talking about their favorite game. I hope that continues.

[ghost-angel]

I wil wait and see what develops and offer my opinions on it. I didn't think the Steve Long started this forum for people to blow sunshine up his skirt about 6th edition but for an open discussion about the proposal and what the fanbase on this forum feels about them. And one side getting shouted down and insulted for their opinions does not contribute to an open and meaningful discussion. If a proposed change makes a customer feel like dropping the product line. It's something the producers of that product should know about. It might not change their minds, of course, but I feel its important knowledge.

He didn't start it to "blow sunshine up his skirt" - he started to discuss RULES.

Complain about 6E all you want - in another forum. There's a thread in the Company Questions Forum that's all about that.

Here - we discuss what we would like to see changed, and unchanged because It Is Coming. Positively.

[McCoy]

To all of you who are making these knee-jerk threats about quitting HERO if 6E is published, what are you expecting? Are you really expecting Steve to see these threats and say, 'Oh my golly gosh! I certainly didn't mean to offend your delicate sensibilities! Tell you what, let's pretend that none of this silly talk about 6E ever happened. Would you like some milk and cookies now?'

It always tickles me to no end when people think that their personal opinions carry such a great weight with anyone other than themselves especially when they think this kind of negative talk will somehow influence anything or anyone. It's like people who get bad service at Applebee's running around shouting about how they're starting a one-person boycott and never eating there again. Last I checked, Applebee's is doing just fine.

I don't mean to be harsh here but, seriously, if that's your attitude, see ya. I absolutely cannot stand this pervasive sense of self-entitlement that so many people seem to have.

If Steve just gets rid of hexes and inches for meters, that's enough for me to buy 6E. If he gets rid of Superheroes, I'll buy two.
You obviously have never owned your own business.

A single disgruntled customer, in and of themselves, is no great loss. But for every person who speaks up, there are some ten to a hundred who silently take their business elsewhere.

Right now the RPG industry, like comic books, is dealing with a shrinking, ageing customer base. Trying to expand that customer base is good business sense. However, offending the existing customer base on the chance of attracting a new customer base is gambling. Could win big. Could lose big.

I, and a lot of people, are taking a "wait and see" attitude. If this change is an improvement, we will continue, buying the new rules and probably two to three books a year. If the new rules are changes for the sake of change and making the existing products not compatatable with the new rules, then a lot of us will pick up any 5th ed stuff we don't have at the close-out sale then go our own way.

By the way, if the reason for this change is "To take advantage of the opportunities presented by the release of the CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG," if we are trying to bring in a new customer base from their exposure to a Superhero game, doesn't this seem like the time to embrace our superhero roots rather than try to distance ourselves from them?

[nexus]

He didn't start it to "blow sunshine up his skirt" - he started to discuss RULES.


And saying that you don't like those rules or don't want some rules changed IS discussing them. People give reasons for the negatives as well as the positives and there's not reason to shut them down because of their opinions aren't "positive".



Complain about 6E all you want - in another forum. There's a thread in the Company Questions Forum that's all about that.

Here - we discuss what we would like to see changed, and unchanged because It Is Coming. Positively.

And how is saying what you don't want changed not following these guidelines? Hero is not a religion. There are no heretics and I haven't seen all these people just "complaining" without merit. I'm frankly, not that impressed with suggested changes and I have said why. It seems a reasonable assumption that if someone says "If this is changed I probably won't buy the 6ed" is a pretty good indicator that they have a problem with that particular change. I haven't seen many posts that say If DOJ does 6ed at all I'm taking my ball and going home.

"I feel the speed chart is an integral part of what makes Hero System Hero and if it's dropped I probably won't purchase 6th edition products" isn't "complaining about 6th ed" Its stating a preference for what should NOT be changed in said edition and the strength of your conviction about it. Dismissing it as self important whining and unmerited sense of entitlement serves not purpose except to dismiss that person's opinion.

And I'll assume you're using a general "you" in your posts. "I" as in me Nexus have been following this forum since the beginning. I was one of the first to post and I've tried back up my opinions with reasons. I do think "I don't want this" is just a valid as "I do".

[Simon]

In an effort to head off the increasing enmity going on here (on both sides), let's keep a few things in mind:

1. Keep it constructive. It is absolutely fine to disagree with an idea or to think that a particular rule or option or new idea is a "bad thing". It is quite another to say things along the line of "I absolutely will not go to a new edition of the rules. Change is teh suxX0rS! I quit!" It is likewise not terribly constructive to say things like "Anyone who disagrees with any change posited is wrong and should be silenced!"

People will disagree. That's fine. Keep it civil and avoid threats. Threatening to leave the system will not help anyone (least of all you).

2. Keep it civil. Discuss the rules. Do not attack each other. When you take the discussion from the topic at hand to your fellow posters, you will find yourself on the infracting end of the moderation team.

3. Keep it on-topic. This is a place to discuss possible changes and enhancements for the 6th edition rules. The 6th edition rules will be happening. Yes, it is change. No, it is not the end of the world. See topics 1 & 2. Understand them. Embrace them. And post on-topic in the given thread of your choice.

[steamteck]

Steve's Rules For This Forum:
7. Sarcasm, cynicism, and snideness are not appropriate. If you can’t participate in this discussion without some optimism, some respect, some diplomacy, or at least the ability to keep your negative personality traits to yourself, you’re not going to be allowed to keep taking part. This needs to be a constructive dialogue, not a destructive one.


So - to be stunningly blunt - yes you should.

Contribute something, a suggestion, and idea, discussion on other suggestions or ideas. Even a "No, I don't like that, I like this" is better than negativity.


But just complaining? Take it somewhere else, please.


Except nexus has presented plenty of suggestions and reasons for maintaining the things he likes. Nexus contribution to threads I'm reading has actually been more than yours which is pretty unusual. Nexus and I particularly in characteristics have come up with well thought out arguments for some of the same issues.

Wow! Thats really not like the you I've seen posting before. Give some of this to the folks who don't just disagree with someone but claimed they posted nothing after they post an argument.

[CourtFool]

What a funny sheep. You and the Llama should travel the world solving crimes or something.

What you got against me Enforcer84? I never suggested pulling supers out of Hero.

[Silbeg]

Because some people have spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars on books that they don't want to see be made useless.

I don't want to see any more changes made between fifth and sixth than were made between fourth and fifth, or third and fourth.

I can still, with minor tweaks, use materials released for third edition with 5e. If I can't do that with sixth edition, I'm a lot less likely to want to get into it.

I would have to agree with all of that. 100%

I am also one of the many that has cut back on the gaming dollar. I will say that I was rather surprised at the announcement (in the sinking feeling in the pit of one's stomach type of surprise), but I do understand why this would be happening.

I also know that in all practicality, if there are major changes to the system, a good portion of all of the tasty books I own will become obsolete. Yes, I can handle the conversion (I still use some of the old 3E and 4E sourcebooks), but in these days of my adulthood, I just don't have the time to spend on it all that I once did.

I do expect that eventually I will be getting the 6E book, but...

[Lord Mhoram]

To further the explanation, for myself, and echoing some of the comments by Chris and Silbeg - And I don't consider this negative, but honest.

I think that a lot of the worry and trepidation by those of us unsure about 6th stems from this fact:

From 1st to 3rd the rules hardly changed. The differences between those editions were as small as the variances you find between groups. 4th was a change, but it was mostly additive - adding in the cool bits from the non Champions games to make the Hero rules. Some changes to frameworks (such as not letting specific powers in an EC), changes to range mods, but in general it didn't have much more impact on the game than what a splatbook might in another game system. 5th came along, and again there wasn't much in the way of change - a few powers got shuffled around, and recosted, ECs were further limited, and again the changes were not much different that a second splatbook.

The writing and presentation changed, but not a huge amount. Characteristics cost the same, frameworks were the same, most powers were the same with added abilities.

From 1st to 5th it was, minor differences aside the same game.

Now 6th is announced with "No sacred cows" and "Rebuilding from the ground up" things that are defining elements to the system are up for discussion - the Speed Chart, Figured Characteristics, cost of Characteristics and others.

To me (and I suspect to many others) that would, in effect be a new game that is based on/inspired by the Hero system (like Gurps or M&M).

I don't want to play a new game. I want to play the same game I have been playing since '85.

By analogy when D&D third came out - it wasn't the same game as previous editions. In my mind it was a better game, but it was a different one. What I am really worried (personally) is that is what will happen to 6th - a different game will come out. Because the state of the game industry, and what most players want is something that would be a different game. DOJ doing what I fear just might be the best business decision - and if it is, I want them to make it. I want to see them succeed, I just expect to be left behind when they do.

Because I want to play the same game, not a new one.


Edit: And even if I don't move to 6th, I figure I will be buying some sourcebooks (Regency Hero, Horror Hero) and use them with my 5th ed game. I do that with D&D books for my FH game, and M&M books for my Champions game. No reason not to with 6th ed books.

[Thia Halmades]

I submit that 99% of the point of saying "No Sacred Cows" is to keep people from feeling inhibited. Have something you've ALWAYS hated? Now's the time to bring it up, because Steve is listening to everything. I would argue this is the closest you'll ever find to a fan-constructed game that doesn't suffer from being done by committee. We all know Steve loves HERO. He really does. And I choose to believe, since I have no reason to believe otherwise, that he's going to do right by it and US, the FANS. Otherwise, it's a crappy product.

Since 6th isn't the same engine being used to run the Champions MMO, that means that the rules set needs to appeal to us (core users) and be presented in an appealing manner to the new cats (same art, etc.). I'm still not seeing a down side here. Lots of panic! Not a lot of "here's my evidence that says we're screwed."

No sacred cows doesn't mean we're screwed. It means Steve is listening.

[Lord Mhoram]

No sacred cows doesn't mean we're screwed. It means Steve is listening.

I can see that. But it still makes me mighty nervous. :)

[CourtFool]

Exactly. No sacred cows means I am listening, not I am listening and I am going to implement every damn fool idea the llama presents.

[MorpheousXO]

HERE HERE THIA!!! I'm quite excited about this (other than the fact that I only recently got Ultimate Martial Artist in hard copy T_T oh well, I'll get the new one too), and considering the comments in the other thread area thing supposedly they aren't rereleasing a bunch of stuff (at least as far as genre books goes) because it's pretty much not needed. I do think they'll need to rerelease the ultimates, sadly. Honestly, in that case, I hope they get a "HERO System: Expanded Skills" book out asap cause ultimate skill is my favorite ultimate.

In any case, I'm incredibly optimistic because I do believe that Steve's extra years of experience and the no holds barred aspect will make for a very good product that takes what HERO is and turns it into something even more amazing than it already is.

Oh, also, if any info on 6th ed. HD comes out could someone PM me a linky so I can get the low down on it? Thankee sai!

[Thia Halmades]

Exactly. No sacred cows means I am listening, not I am listening and I am going to implement every damn fool idea the llama presents.

Which, again, is why I'm just a little disillusioned. I honestly thought that people would (maybe I'm projecting again) embrace the idea of voicing opinions that until now fell smack on deaf ears.

"I don't answer design/philosphy questions" is now:

"Let's talk openly about design and philosophy, because I know what I think will make HERO better; I'd like to hear what you cats think."

[CourtFool]

Perhaps it is a fear that Steve will listen to someone other than themselves.

[nexus]

Perhaps it is a fear that Steve will listen to someone other than themselves.

Or listen and implement ideas that are game breakers for them regardless of who submitted them or perhaps even some of the suggestions that Steve Long himself has brought up don't appeal and might be used.

[CourtFool]

Fair enough.

[Akiva]

Just for the record, my bit about removing Superheroes is just that: a bit. It's a joke. There's no way I'd actually suggest limiting the game in such a way just because I happen to not like it. It's just part of my shtick here that I hate Superheroes much in the same way I hate olives and, boy, do I hate me some olives.

Also, it seems that many people have missed my point: I, like everyone else around here, welcome dissenting opinion. Without it, there's no innovation. What I was taking issue with was people who are just throwing up their hands in disgust and threatening to leave if 6E happens. What's constructive about that? And claiming that, 'I spent a ton of money on 5E books so I deserve to not have 6E published,' isn't constructive either: it's selfish. If you can't afford 6E books (or if you don't want to), then don't. Your 5E stuff is going to be worth its weight in gold for years and years to come. But, if that's all you have to offer to the conversation ('What? I'm not getting my way? Well, I QUIT!'), that's when I say, 'See ya.'

6E is going to happen. No matter what. So, I guess if you already have your mind made up, then there you go. You've got two years to buy up any 5E books that you don't already have, two years to look forward to some new 5E books that I'm sure will see publication before 6E happens, and the rest of your life to use those books with 5E while swapping and sharing several more reams of fan-produced 5E material. And, I seriously doubt Steve's going to suddenly end online 5E support; I expect he'll still be willing to answer questions about the game as he currently does.

Just have a little faith. And I don't mean that in a George Michaels kind of way.

[CourtFool]

Great. Now I have to call back the truck load of Black Death Ninja Robots that are on their way to your house.

[Akiva]

Dang. I need to have the moss pulled up from my back yard in preparation for spring seeding and Black Death Ninja Robots are perfect for that kind of work.

[CourtFool]

I’ll send the new orders.

[caris]

And, I seriously doubt Steve's going to suddenly end online 5E support; I expect he'll still be willing to answer questions about the game as he currently does.

Like he supports 4th Ed or references 5th Ed page numbers for those of us who did not feel that 5th Ed revised was what we needed? I'm sure he will until 6th is released, at that time all answers will be based on and geared toward 6th edition, just as with 5th and 5thR. To be honest, there is nothing wrong with that. It's appropriate.

I'm not angry that Hero Games is producing a 6th edition. Hero Games/DOJ do not owe me anything, but by the same token I don't owe them anything. I'm not obligated to buy their products. I'm not obligated to think that they are making the correct decisions. I'm also not required, in a general sense, to stop back seat driving and/or kibitzing because other people who are doing the same (i.e. you, Thia, Court Fool, Ghost-Angel, etc.) don't like that I don't share their position. Of course, DOJ is under no obligation to provide me with a forum to express that oppinion, and are freely able to ask me to leave this forum or force me to leave (asking would work just fine).

What really amuses me, is that even though I would leave, I do beleive that the best course of action with a 6th Edition, particularly if it is being done now, is to make so many radical changes that 6th Ed products are completely incompatible with 5th. Just be honest and up front. "Sorry guys, we love you, but we can not stay open indeffinitely with the current product line. We've pretty much brought in all the new blood we can with the current methodology and form of the rules. You all are not able to buy enough product to keep us going. We need to change things so much that new people will give this a serious look as something different than what has gone before." Optimally, I think they should break it off even more from the Hero brand, and call it a different system. Let Hero system go fallow for a while, give the market sometime off, and come back to Hero again later. Yeah, I'm saying that even after the Fuzion debacle. I think that one of the biggest mistakes that Fuzion made was trying to position itself as just another from of Hero, when it really wasn't.

OK, dropping the Hero line completely might be much, but perhaps reduce the output of Hero for a while maybe to 2 or 3 a year, while ramping up something different.

Of course, there is one very important concern to this do Darren and Steve want to run a generic gaming company or do they want to run Hero Gaming Company. In other words, is such a radical shift in the business plan going to change the nature of their jobs into something they don't want to do anymore?

[Thia Halmades]

I'm not upset that you don't agree, Caris; I'm saying that any extremism is kind of pointless.

[CourtFool]

Back seat drive and kibitz all you want. I certainly am. Disagreeing with you is not the same as wanting to silence you.

[Karmakaze]

I hate olives and, boy, do I hate me some olives.

Hooray! More for me!

[Akiva]

caris, although I don't agree with your idea of breaking out 6E into an entirely new system, your response was very well-put. In the absence of being able to actually provide you any rep, I'm giving it to you on the honor system which means that the next person who does give you rep, for whatever reason, actually comes from me. Just keep that in mind.

Also, as my LOL account stated above, I don't want you silenced but I don't see how 'I'm leaving!' is really helpful.

[MarkusDark]

I am going to do with Hero 6th ed like I do with any revision:

Give my input where I feel it is appropriate
Await the release of the game
Check out the system and see if I like it
If yes, I'll buy it, if no, I won't.

I have enough source material to run 5th Ed. games with my friends until doomsday. Besides, the only thing 99.95% of the support books do is give you someone else's creative look on things (and, in doing so, very little 'game mechanics' unlike new feats, classes, etc like D&D). I'll design my own worlds, groups, magic systems, etc.

[MilkmanDan]

My thoughts:

I have never played D&D 3.5E. Not once. Think I picked a book up at Barnes and Noble once out of curiosity, but put it down again. Just don't care to learn it. That being said, I could easily sit down right now and play it without instruction. Why? I played Baldur's Gate and KOTOR and Neverwinter Nights and a slew of other games based on the ruleset. WOTC was able to get their rules out there via computer games, and that familiarity I'm sure has made it a lot easier to sell their core rulebooks to people who already understand the basics. It makes it easier for new players.

Hero is not easy for new players. I love the crunchiness of it, but it's not exactly a pick up and play system--there are a lot of mechanics that let you do anything, but that same level of granularity makes it tougher.

Now, from what we hear, there will be a Champions MMO. Assuming it sucks over a decent percentage of people who play City of Heroes, you've suddenly got a huge chunk of people exposed to your rules. Furthermore, if it continues to get mentioned in the same breath as "the cancelled Marvel Superheroes MMO", there's more exposure--people will have more name recognition.

I'm probably making a series of assumptions, but, if this MMO uses Hero 6th's ruleset, you've got a potential new audience. You don't really have much of a new audience right now--hardcore Hero people will drag in new players sometimes, but you're not really going to grow the market. New rules + marketing via potentially popular computer game = new business. If those rules wind up being marketable for other games as well, then Hero can actually make a big splash in the market and move out of the relatively small niche it has now.

[Caped Crusader]

I'm not really surprised by this, The entire industry has shifted from focusing on making money by producing and supporting good games to trying to extract cash from the customers in the most efficient way possible by changing the material every 4-5 years. ("What?" You say? Isn't that what corporations are supposed to do? Yes, in a world where money is the *only* thing that matters... oh, wait...)

GURPS still hasn't recovered from their conversion to 4th edition. They're still replacing existing material.

D&D is looking like it's going to self-destruct with it's pushing of 4e.
(How many publishers were operating under the OGL that just got yanked out from underneath them?)

Now, it looks like Hero is going down the same road.

As to the person who said
"Furthermore, considering the kind of publisher that DoJ is, I'd be surprised if we don't see some kind of conversion book that will keep most of the 5th edition supplements useful. Heck, maybe it'll even be published as a free PDF."
Why would you expect this? They didn't do one for 4th-to-5th even though we asked for it multiple times.

And, yes, we're making a lot of noise about something that doesn't exist yet. But if we wait until after it hits the street our chance for effective feedback is gone.

I've been a Hero gamer since the first edition hit the street. If it turns out that my opinion doesn't matter to the people who publish it, there's really something very wrong here.
You can't exist if you annoy your existing customers in your attempts to gain new ones. In effect you are saying that the faithful customers who've kept your boat afloat for the last 25 years are worthless to you. That tends to p*ss people off.
If nobody cared, nobody would make any noise.

[MarkusDark]

I do not believe that Cryptic is using the Hero ruleset. And, if they were, I think that many things would not translate basically because most of the math will be done behind the scenes. Although I would LOVE to be able to tailor my MMO character as much as I can my tabletop ones, the character creation system for MMO's tends to be a bit simpler.

But I have also heard that there will be unprecedented character customization in this game (although that could just mean the costumes). In addition, I have heard that you will be able to actually design a nemesis for your hero that will show up from time to time to harass your character.

As for opinions mattering, that is EXACTLY what DOJ is looking for with the updates in 6th edition. Due to the change in the market as well as the MMO coming out, things need to be updated to better fit things. Some opinions may not be implemented as they do not mesh with the rest of the stuff that is happening. I know that eventhough I have played for over 20 years, I wouldn't expect them to change from d6 to d12 unless I presented a great proposal for it and got a majority of players behind me with it. A single opinion amongst thousands won't change much, but the more you have behind it, the more it will move.

[Caped Crusader]

"if this MMO uses Hero 6th's ruleset"

I read a message from Steve somewhere else here that stated the MMO will *NOT* use the Hero ruleset. Kind of a shame, really, as Neverwinter Nights was the game that taught some folks I know the d20 system, breaking a kind of a logjam on that system.

[ghost-angel]

None of my posts are intended personally. I just think this is a place to discuss changes, and complains should go in the Company Forum.

[Simon]

Congrats to all the people who've "been participating since the discussion board opened"... that's nice.
A prime example of what I stated folks should be avoiding.

People: please keep this civil. If you cannot discuss options and ideas like sane, rational people then you should not come into this forum -- it will not end well.

[nexus]

"if this MMO uses Hero 6th's ruleset"

I read a message from Steve somewhere else here that stated the MMO will *NOT* use the Hero ruleset. Kind of a shame, really, as Neverwinter Nights was the game that taught some folks I know the d20 system, breaking a kind of a logjam on that system.

I remember seeing something along those lines too. Shame though, that would be so cool. I'd probably scrape up some cash to give it a whirl if it was but I seen where coding the Champions rules would be problematic at best.

I have heard Cryptic is going for a more open ended system than COH but that's probably getting off topic. Sorry

[caris]

caris, although I don't agree with your idea of breaking out 6E into an entirely new system, your response was very well-put. In the absence of being able to actually provide you any rep, I'm giving it to you on the honor system which means that the next person who does give you rep, for whatever reason, actually comes from me. Just keep that in mind.

Also, as my LOL account stated above, I don't want you silenced but I don't see how 'I'm leaving!' is really helpful.

Akiva, I’m going to have to take you through a bit of an arcane journey, through my thought processes. People have been known to be scarred by trips through my head, be prepared.

From a business perspective, there is only one reason to produce a Hero System 6th Edition, to sell a Hero System 6th Edition. Now, I do not think it is a good idea to assume that Steve, Darren and the rest of DOJ only use business reasoning in their decision. I think that they do have aesthetic and other types of reasons for the decision, which is not a bad thing. I do not care about those other reasons, because those other reasons don’t really relate to whether or not Hero Games will be able to at some point produce a book that I want to purchase. All I care about is will sales of this book help DOJ be able to pay the bills, when it comes to choosing books to print , etc.

There are a lot of ways to divvy up the world of people that DOJ hope will buy 6th and the books derived from it. The one that seems most relevant to me is: current customer base, and the rest of the world. Presumably, DOJ should be attempting to get the largest amount of both those two groups possible, with the desired outcome being 100% of both. Now the truth is that we both know that they will not be able to get 100% of both groups. So DOJ has to look at what amounts of both groups is going to get them the optimal sales results in both the short run and the long run (optimal does not necessarily mean the largest amount of sales).

DoJ is doing a new edition. OK, a new edition means changes. Most likely results are your customer base is going to be divided into some proportions of favorable, neutral and negative in varying degrees. How this is going to actually impact their purchasing you can not know without input for a sample of that audience. You need to know what things will cause what amount of people to be more likely to buy, what will make them less likely to buy, what are the deal breakers and get an idea of what the potential populations are. All of this data helps you decide things related to your goals with your customer base. This is why, I am stating things like: SPD is a deal breaker for me. If published write ups for 6E characters do not include SPD, than I will not be purchasing any 6E product. It is also helpful to know how your product and activities are being perceived. So as harsh as Caped Crusader’s opinion of the decision to produced 6E is, Steve, Darren, et al need to hear it. How much note and weight they give to any one or even any thousand opinions, well that is their judgment call to make.

If you are going to make any meaningful changes, which I believe Steve will do, you are going to probably loose some of your customer base. This means that you need to bring in new customers to add to the customer base, preferably more than you loose. Which you will notice why there are discussions about how to make the rules more appealing, and timing the release with the opening of Champions on-line. This is where I really disagree, and why I made the statement that I did about rather than going with a new edition go with a new system. I am admitting that I was wrong back at the beginning of the Fuzion debacle, when I thought that just a new marketing plan was all that Hero needed. DoJ has pretty much followed what I thought would be the best possible marketing strategy to grow Hero. I don’t really feel that Hero has grown all that significantly, and that the only thing to blame is Hero itself. I honestly think that all the stuff that I love about Hero, what makes it the great system for me that it is, is a turn off to the majority of the gaming market. So yeah, I don’t think that an improved layout, better art and changes that still leave it backwardly compatible with the existing Hero System will be able to do that. I think that to grow their customer base, DoJ has to in some way have a radically different rules set than the current version of Hero. I’d rather see a “sister” system come into being than to loose my current Hero. I’d also rather see Hero Games continue as something other than a charity case supported by a group of obsessed gamers who buy stuff just to keep the company open, than keep Hero around.

Probably too negative, somebody report me to the mods, please.

[nexus]

I think you were really quite eloquent and made quite a few points that I can agree with.

[dsatow]

Personally, I rather see a single core rule book rather than two, and have it cut to the chasse for experience people like me.

Second, I'd like to see Genre books which do not include every option imaginable for that genre but allow a new person to start playing quickly. Include the basics of the game system in each genre book but not all the mechanics. New players rarely care how to make a fireball so as to make a new spell. They'll just use the stock.

Create supplements in either genre or core rules to expand each. Use the genre books as advertizing to sell the core book.

As far as 6e is concerned, I like the even numbered books better than the odd ones so I am hopeful!

[vincemcd]

Fuzion gained us simplicity, but cost us in raw modeling power - I couldn't do certain things anymore with it, which is definitely *not* what I want with 6th. Hero with just one or two attack powers and a stat removed and a few oddball Advantages folded into others is still Hero, not Fuzion II: Electric Boogaloo. I'm arguing for cleanup, not wholescale slash-and-burn revision.
This is a point I agree strongly with. My most recent supers games (it's been a while) were run with Fuzion's base rules, combined with HERO 4th Powers rules to get back the granularity and "sanity" that Fuzion's Powers rules lost.

I've been tempted back to HERO recently, but the complexity of the rules in-play (not character creation) has kept me away. The apparent necessity of the many "Ultimate" books is another thing that's turned me off. If HERO 6th can address these points - and it looks like it has the chance to based on what little Steve has published so far - then this will likely go from being a temptation to a done-deal. And even if it doesn't, I'm no worse off, and I hope that it works well enough to make enough folks happy with the changes.

[Akiva]

Akiva, I’m going to have to take you through a bit of an arcane journey, through my thought processes. People have been known to be scarred by trips through my head, be prepared.

Although I understand what you've written, and even if I did agree this was the best course of action, the problem you're overlooking is the cost of maintaining two product lines. Each group of people are going to expect a certain amount of support and x number of supplements published per year. So, instead of supporting one primary game line, you're now supporting two. This would create an overhead that most companies, especially in this current climate, cannot sustain.

Of course, I realize that a new edition will create a schism in the HERO community. I've seen it happen before with AD&D, with Shadowrun, with Rolemaster, with just about any game that has had more than one edition. People who are against it behave as if it's the end of the world and people who are for it act as if the world is just about to get better for everyone and they pretty much are never able to see eye-to-eye. This kind of apocalyptic hand-waving from those who are against it is rather typical but, for every person who says something like 'a change in SPD is a deal breaker for me', there are probably three people who don't play HERO because the way SPD is handled now is a deal breaker for them. Ultimately, DoJ already has your money.

Let me put it another way: after a certain amount of time has passed, a game system is going to get as many players as it will realistically get to make it economically viable without some kind of shake-up whether it's having its rules licensed into some computer game that ends up being massively popular or a new edition. DoJ publishing some new niche supplement isn't going to generate much revenue and it certainly isn't going to drum up interest from gamers who have already passed judgment on HERO. Sure, the Champions MMORPG, assuming it is ever released, might generate interest in the Champions universe but, as I understand it, it's not even going to use HERO rules so it's not going to really draw people into HERO. In fact, this kind of MMORPG-to-tabletop gambit is what D&D 4e is hinging upon; the new edition is based around MMORPG-style LFG pick-up play. I personally think that it's going to work but it's not going to be the so-called 'watershed' for D&D or the gaming industry as a whole that that 3e was. Do you think HERO should hedge the same bet?

Perhaps, if the gaming industry were in better shape, DoJ could afford to run two lines of what is essentially two variations on the same system. I suppose if the gaming industry were in great shape, WotC could publish D&D 4e and then, as many people would love, resurrect the D&D Rules Cyclopedia as D&D Classic and support them both. But, we both know that it isn't going to happen. It's simply not feasible. Do you think that DoJ can pull off what no other major game company can?

The bottom line is that 6E is happening whether people like it or not. And, all of the doomsaying and gnashing of teeth isn't going to change that. I can guarantee you that Steve didn't just announce this without thinking about everything we've already talked about. When they sat down and began to earnestly discuss the possibility of a sixth edition, you can bet that someone at the table said, 'You know, this is going to piss a lot of people off,' or, 'You realize that this is going to cause a huge rift amongst our players.' But, regardless of the friction that was inevitable, they were compelled to do it anyway. And, as has been pointed out, they're doing it for financial as well as creative reasons. There are obviously flaws with the so-called 'best RPG ever published' and these flaws can possibly be addressed. Will it be done so to please everyone? No, that's impossible. But, it's a risk that needs to be taken.

As far as I can tell, the only thing that people who refuse to upgrade lose is the possibility of new rule options from supplements published after 6E is released. Nothing's stopping people from ignoring the 6E core books and buying only the supplements and ignoring the rules-specific stuff or adapting it for 5E. Other than that, people just seem to take it as some kind of personal insult which confuses me.

No matter what, all of these issues have already been considered by people who have far more experience running a gaming company than we do. These people, remember, have gone through five revisions before, each of which probably caused the same kind of schism amongst the player base.

Anyway, I agree with you that both sides of the argument should be heard but I'm also quite sure that all of this was considered and expected by DoJ.

[Bygoneyrs]

Speaking both for myself and my 13 yr old son that has gotten into RPGing using 5ed R...after have baught (67) Hero System books that are all 5ed R, and having been a Champions player since v2...I think I have earned the right to state my feelings about the new 6ed HS. Now 2.5 yrs ago, I bought my son Chanpions 5ed and started buying him everything else that was 5ed R. Thus that is hoe I have come to have so many Hero System's books today.

Now I have been playing RPG for 32+ yrs now. I started with D&D, Traveller, and then Gamma World..folled by Champions. I have been extremely lucky to always have extra money to dump into buying everything. Thus I have a HUGE library of gamming stuff, and have bought alot of other stuff from lots of other systems too, for reference materials. Now about 3 yrs gao, I started buying everything under the sun for 3.5 ed D&D so I could rework my 25+ yr fantasy campaign, and then last summer they anounced 4ed D&D. I decided having gone from AD&D, to v2.0, and v2.5, skipped v3, and finally v3.5 d20 system...that v4 was Not For Me. I refuse to dump that amount of money again into a gaming system, to buy all the old stuff reworked again for a new system.

So when I discovered that Hero Systems had Fantasy Hero, Traveller Hero, and finally PAH...I was convinced HS v5 was for me. I even taught my own son to use HS 5ed R quite well, he doesn't want simpler rules set. So now Steve Long has decided to do what WOTC did, damn to core long time customers and create a new rule system v6 and what rewrite and reprint the same old stuff again for the next 2-3 yrs starting in 2009.

I have lost interest in buying any more v3.5 d20 D&D stuff, and now buying any v5ed R stuff seems kinda pointless, but my son having not been through this before states lets buy all the remaining v5 stuff and just forget about the v6 HS. he states very few kids want to be bothered learning this stuff and it is mostly the older gamers buying the stuff anyway now. If they want to piss off those that have the money and can buy the books, so they can make the game easier for some to play that can't buy the books in the first place then let him. Wisdom from a 13 yr old RPG kid, seems quite sound and on target. So I might buy the remaining v5 ed R products, but I am not sold on the need for v6.

Now being a old Traveller player, I will buy the rest of Traveller Hero products and the New Era 1248 line until Avenger's/ComStar licence expires in Oct 2008. After that I will most likely start buying Martin's new space system of Far Avalon. I will also buy MonGoose games Traveller and T5 as well too. As for Hero Systems v6, well I might discontinue to spend my 2-3,000+ US dollars a year on any of their products and just focus of Traveller and Far Avalon too. The Traveller material will always be a resource for HS v5ed R.

So lets here some real v6 rules changes so we can chew on them then!!!

Penn

[misterdeath]

I posted a modified version of this at my other home, but I think it might be good here too...

I've got a different perspective. About three months ago, I picked up the game again after a 3ish year layoff, so I could run Hero Supers in the Gestalt Universe for the guys at the gaming store. None of whom have ever played Hero. Most of whom only have played D&D 3.5. One guy's played Palladium Supers.

The first thing I realized is there's too much legacy crap.

Advantages and Limitations on Powers, yet Disadvantages for the character? Why not Advantages and Disadvantages on the Power and Limitations for the Character, especially since half of them are called Limitations anyways? Because when they created the system in '82 that's what they came up with.

Why fractions, not decimals? Because.

Hexes/Inches as a unit of measurement? That's the way it was done in the 80s. At least it stays 2 meters, rather than being 10 ft indoors and 10 yards outdoors. Well, unless you've got Megascale, then all bets are off.

What's the u in the Multipower stand for? Ultra, but now the slots are called Fixed. Why isn't it an f, since Multi slots are m's? Because in the olden days, you labeled things in your elemental control with letters, not a numbered list, and you could get to f that way, and it might be confusing.

But they did away with the lettered lists? Yep, but they didn't change the multipower description.

What's Comeliness do? Nothing, except bragging rights.

Why's it there in a system that prides itself on it's mathematical modeling, and you get what you pay for? Shrug.

___
After the Fuzion Debacle, where while most of the things people were complaining about were fixed but the changes were too much and the implementation was too poor, only a few things were changed in Hero5. Some of which are better, some of which not so much.

But Hero5 is basically the same game as Hero4 (where I really started playing). Cleaning the system of some of the legacy crap, tightening it up mathematically, to make it easier for the new players to pick up and run, like the ones hopefully coming in with the MMO, so they don't say, "Huh, why? That doesn't make a bit of sense," is a very good thing. But, it's going to have to fundamentally remain Hero.

I'm one of the few people that'll admit to liking Fuzion. But even I don't particularly want to see Nukular, or Fuzion II, Electric Boogaloo, or Antymatter (Y, because it's cool) or whatever it'd be called.

I don't envy Steve having to walk the line between making the system easier and more accessible, and keeping the rabid fan base mostly intact.
____

One thing I'd like to see is something proposed most recently by Toadmaster, that Genre simulation be given a little better treatment. In a gritty military game, the Tank has stats X, In my GI Joe campaign Y, in Supers Z. (He used M-16 as an example.)

You can use Hero to do any Genre, that doesn't mean the numbers all have to be the same in every genre.

D

[tiger]

Well, I'll throw my two sense in so everyone might want to duck!

I personally am a bit sick of the constant reworking of systems that seems to have gotten a hold of the gaming industry over recent years. Just when you start to pick up books, and the prices seems to be increasing, they rework the system and you have to start over.

Having said this, it has been quite a few years since fred or fred II, revised edition, has came out. There are a lot of rules, new talents, perks etc scattered over different rulebooks. It would be nice and very handy to have them all located in one new book.

Over the years lots of questions have risen, just check the rule FAQ, so clarifications and possibly a few rule changes could be in order.

I just hope the DOJ will not follow the tread of "reworking" all the books and then releasing them again.

[Steve Long]

if this MMO uses Hero 6th's ruleset

We've stated this several times, but clearly it bears repeating:

The CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMO is not a "HERO System MMO." Cryptic did not buy the HERO System rules; we still own them. The MMO will not be using the HERO System rules for character creation, combat resolution, or anything else.

Now, Cryptic has licensed from us the right to use some of our terminology, if they want, with our approval; thus, if they have an intangibility power they could call it Desolidification. This will, at least in theory, be immensely helpful to us when it comes to attracting MMO players to buying Hero books and playing the HERO System. But that's a far cry from using the actual rules mechanics... which, to repeat, they are not doing.

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled discussion. ;)

[McCoy]

Also, it seems that many people have missed my point: I, like everyone else around here, welcome dissenting opinion. Without it, there's no innovation. What I was taking issue with was people who are just throwing up their hands in disgust and threatening to leave if 6E happens.
And I think you've missed my point, and the point of several others. I don't see anyone saying they will quit if 6E happens. 6E is happening, that's a done deal.

What I am saying, what I hear others saying, is that I have been here from the begining, I have played this game for 25 years, I stuck through one absolutely disasterous rules revision, and that could-not-possibly-be-as-long-as-it- felt-like period when the Big Blue Book was out of print and the release date for FRED kept being put back.

Truth to tell, I liked some of the rules in 4th ed better than 5th ed. This gives me a shiver when Steve talks about fixing the engine. My fear is that the high preformance V-8 in the BBB has been replaced by a Sideways Six, and now even that is going to be pulled out and replaced by a Wankel. Which Steve has every right to do if he wants to.

I will buy the PDF of 6th ed as soon as it is available. I would love for my fear to be proven wrong.

But if I am not wrong, I am not promising to ride this wave like I did the others. Steve is gambling with our customer loyality, we want him to be aware of that when he rolls the dice.

In any event, the artwork in 6th ed will almost certainly be better. That's one bright spot. :D

[caris]

Although I understand what you've written, and even if I did agree this was the best course of action, the problem you're overlooking is the cost of maintaining two product lines. Each group of people are going to expect a certain amount of support and x number of supplements published per year. So, instead of supporting one primary game line, you're now supporting two. This would create an overhead that most companies, especially in this current climate, cannot sustain.

I have to respectfully disagree, your post indicates to me that you did not understand me. You are so fixated on a minor second point to the point that you are telling me things that I thought I clearly stated in my post as if I was completely unaware of it. Yes, the Hero Games customer base is in a situation where sales are not supporting the company. They have to energize sales. Quite frankly it is the fact that some many companies have taken the “create a new edition to make the existing customer to spend money on updates to the new edition” that creates the kind of reaction that we got from Caped Crusader. This strategy of releasing a new edition to excite new sales is becoming less effective every time it is used by any company. The view that it is just a gimmick to get sales out of the current customer base is really starting to spread no matter which company is doing it.

Yes, a new edition is going to cause a schism, and if they are going to have to bring in new players. I’ll what I’ve said twice now. I don’t think anything that is recognizable as Hero System as we now it, is going to be able to bring in a significant amount of new players. If the goal is to really bring in a significant influx of new players the change has to be so much that those potential new players if you to think of it as some thing completely different from what it is. So, yeah, I think that since what I’m saying is they have to pretty much create a brand new system that they should do just that, create a new system. What part of :

“Let Hero system go fallow for a while, give the market sometime off, and come back to Hero again later. Yeah, I'm saying that even after the Fuzion debacle. I think that one of the biggest mistakes that Fuzion made was trying to position itself as just another from of Hero, when it really wasn't.

OK, dropping the Hero line completely might be much, but perhaps reduce the output of Hero for a while maybe to 2 or 3 a year, while ramping up something different.”

made you think that I expect, or want Hero Games to attempt to fully produce two complete gaming lines? Did I back off some from the complete drop? Yes, because it probably would be seen as too much like the Fuzion debacle. Sure, in my dreams, I imagine some cute fluffy extremely popular game system being created by DoJ that lets them produce Hero books to their hearts content, but that ain’t gonna happen!

The real problem is that I don’t think that Steve and Darren want to run just any gaming company. I think they want to run the game company that produces Hero System product. Me, I want them to run a gaming company that is going to be here in another 20 years. (Do I still want to be gaming at 60? Probably)

Yes, the RPG market is weak, and it is trying to cover the overhead with a single product line that is really killing the smaller companies. Of course, I can’t really be sure that what you mean by overhead and what I mean by overhead is the same thing. I think most companies that try to rely on a single product line to keep them going are going to be in real trouble. They are going to have to diversify in some way. Current methods of diversification haven’t really been working for Hero Games, apparently.

As for the inevitability of 6E? As the saying goes, “it ain’t over until the fat lady sings.” IIRC, at least two Hero Projects were announced prior to the decision to create Fuzion and got canceled by the decision to switch to Fuzion.

[James Gillen]

You obviously have never owned your own business.

A single disgruntled customer, in and of themselves, is no great loss. But for every person who speaks up, there are some ten to a hundred who silently take their business elsewhere.

Right now the RPG industry, like comic books, is dealing with a shrinking, ageing customer base. Trying to expand that customer base is good business sense. However, offending the existing customer base on the chance of attracting a new customer base is gambling. Could win big. Could lose big.

I, and a lot of people, are taking a "wait and see" attitude. If this change is an improvement, we will continue, buying the new rules and probably two to three books a year. If the new rules are changes for the sake of change and making the existing products not compatatable with the new rules, then a lot of us will pick up any 5th ed stuff we don't have at the close-out sale then go our own way.

By the way, if the reason for this change is "To take advantage of the opportunities presented by the release of the CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG," if we are trying to bring in a new customer base from their exposure to a Superhero game, doesn't this seem like the time to embrace our superhero roots rather than try to distance ourselves from them?

Thoughts on this:

Given that the new website design actually seems to emphasize the CHAMPIONS part a lot more than it ever did, it seems that much more counterintuitive to sell off the intellectual property, which effectively the company is now hawking for Cryptic. With all due respect it isn't something I would have done. The book is the business, Champions is what helps get people in the door.

Yes, obviously Hero is not just Champions and has not been just Champions since before 4th Edition. Las Vegas isn't just gambling, booze and strippers. But as much as I want to emphasize that, getting rid of those things would kill our economy. ;) It's not worth obsessing over, since the deal is signed and done, but I wanted it noted.

Tonight I told my gaming group about the news, and the general consensus was like "Well hey, we're still playing AD&D 2nd Edition and West End STAR WARS. If we don't like this, we're not buying it."

So on one hand, you've got to give the aging grognards (those of us who have mounting bills and decreasing disposable income) a reason to buy a book we "already have." If the new edition is not an improvement, or too much hassle to convert, there's still the 5th Edition material, which of course works perfectly well.

On the other hand, you need to get newer gamers, many of whom learned of a "roleplaying game" as something you insert in a Playstation or CD drive. They don't know how great this game is or why it's great. You have to give them a reason to buy something that may be their first tabletop experience.
Sidekick, 5ER, and the plan to sell one character-based corebook are great steps in this direction (splitting the corebook also reduces the short-term entry cost) but I think there's still more that we could do.

Y'know what I want from HERO 6th? I want HERO 6th to be to HERO 5th what Daniel Craig is to Pierce Brosnan.

If that makes any sense. :D

JG

[James Gillen]

Which, again, is why I'm just a little disillusioned. I honestly thought that people would (maybe I'm projecting again) embrace the idea of voicing opinions that until now fell smack on deaf ears.

"I don't answer design/philosphy questions" is now:

"Let's talk openly about design and philosophy, because I know what I think will make HERO better; I'd like to hear what you cats think."

Again, not to speak for Steve, but "I don't answer game philosophy questions" made sense because 5th was already set and the interpretation was only about what to be done with it. Game philosophy questions are relevant now.

JG

[lemming]

I just hope the DOJ will not follow the tread of "reworking" all the books and then releasing them again.
Well, I think the timing could of been better for the 6th in that if had happened a bit earlier to take advantage of the bleed off from D&D, but that's wishful thinking.

Having a MMO coming out with artwork that is used for an RPG will probably attract some new players and in that, the timing is good, though that's speculating that a project comes in on time from the SW world. (It happens, really. ;) )

I don't think it's in DoJ's interest to drive off the existing fan base, since we're the ones that will be for the most part answering questions in the forums for the hoped for influx, much like we do now. Invalidating our knowledge of the system wouldn't serve that purpose. So I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic and see how it develops over the next year.

[Enforcer84]

What you got against me Enforcer84? I never suggested pulling supers out of Hero.
I've got nothing against the Llama! (especially since my negatives were destroyed in the fire *sigh*) and I really have nothing against the sheep. I just thought the idea of you guys solving crimes would be funny.

[Enforcer84]

I'm not upset that you don't agree, Caris; I'm saying that any extremism is kind of pointless.
Unless it's extremely pointed.

:winkgrin:

[Gadodel]

Maybe, just maybe; the folks who are not ready for 6E now-might be in 2009. It's a ways away. Just as possible, some folks who are ready for it now, might start altering their game as Steve gives up sneak peaks along the way. Time will tell.

Waiting. Watching closely. Reserving judgment. Until then, I'm still rolling the dice.

[Thia Halmades]

You know, as an aside, I submit that in fact the Supers have been removed from HERO.

Since, you know, Champions & Dark Champions just got sold. *blink blink* So the rat-powered-lamb gets his wish. And Chad will now cry.

[caris]

You know, as an aside, I submit that in fact the Supers have been removed from HERO.

Since, you know, Champions & Dark Champions just got sold. *blink blink* So the rat-powered-lamb gets his wish. And Chad will now cry.

Ah, so now Akiva is committed...

to buying two copies of 6E. I'm sure Steve and company will be more than happy to accept his prepayment for those two copies today. :D

[GamePhil]

You know, as an aside, I submit that in fact the Supers have been removed from HERO.

Since, you know, Champions & Dark Champions just got sold. *blink blink* So the rat-powered-lamb gets his wish. And Chad will now cry.

Not quite. They sold the IP rights for Champions to Cryptic, it's true, but they are licensed for no cost to use the IP, so they can produce Champions books still.

I'm pretty sure you knew that and were joking, but don't want people just staggering in here the wrong idea :)

And Dark Champions isn't supers :P

[Kirby]

Unless it's extremely pointed.You're a sharp one. ;)

[Akiva]

Wait. What were we talking about?

[Chris Goodwin]

Wait. What were we talking about?

Monkeys.

[hfergus]

I just have a couple of things to say.

1) If I can do what I want with the new system, I do not care much about how. If I can build Volt, Olorin, Futurian and Doctor Destoyer, I'm probably happy. Converting would possibly be a pain, but I can deal with that. I'd start with my characters and certain favorite villians. I did that with fourth edition to fifth. I have a lot of 4th ed books; I can use them as I wish or not. They are idea starters, not the law. Let me build a concept without artificial D&D "classes", and if I were a cat I'd purr.

2) I hope, and have confidence, that if certain stats are removed, It'd be no problem. COM has never really come in in my games and PRE is rare. Also, if frameworks (EC, VPP, multipower) is changed or removed, make sure one type (brick, energy projecter, etc) does not become too powerful compared to others, or too weak.

3) I've always thought the killing attack vs normal is odd. Killing should be rare in Gold Age/Silver Age, but not too hard in fantasy hero. Killing vs normal attacks are the hardest to explain to newcomers, and the hardest to keep track of sometimes. As long as the "flavors" of the genres are kept, I see no problem.

4)I'm still buying the 5th Ed books I want. I use them as ideas, not rules as I have stated before.

5) I will buy 6th Ed. If I do not like it, I will not use it. 6th Ed books? If I see them as idea books, yes. Otherwise, maybe. I can use almost any type of book as an idea. I use D&D books as ideas for Hero System, even Champions.

6) The only possible "negative" thing I will say. One reason I dropped D&D was the rapid 2nd to 3rd to 3.5th to 4th change. Some of this was needed, but I feel it was mainly to bring in money. I do not think this is the case here, however. If the game does not change a little, it could die out. If it changes too much or too rapidly, it will die out as old gamers drop it and new ones see it as "a money pit".

Go with the change Steve, and I await it with money in my hand. Just remember the old gamers and make sure they can still do what they want. I have confidence you will.

7) Ok, I thought of this late. If the creation rules are simple, it will be hard to do everything people want. If they are complex, we will need a new computer aid. I can do it without, but most people are not math nerds like I am. If possible, have it in the rule book. It was one of the few things D&D did right with version 3.

[Kirby]

I just have a couple of things to say.

1) [...]

2) [...]

3) [...]

4) [...]

5) [...]

6) [...]

7)[...]Heh, couple = two. ;)

[Enforcer84]

You know, as an aside, I submit that in fact the Supers have been removed from HERO.

Since, you know, Champions & Dark Champions just got sold. *blink blink* So the rat-powered-lamb gets his wish. And Chad will now cry.
Nah, CU is sold, not Superheroes. Supers still run over your piddly high tech soldiers like steamrollers over icecream cones.
:)

[Enforcer84]

You're a sharp one. ;)
Thankyew!


Wait. What were we talking about?


Monkeys.

With pointy sticks.

[Enforcer84]

Heh, couple = two. ;)
He meant swinging couple

[CourtFool]

Gigity, gigity!

[Opal]

Since, you know, Champions & Dark Champions just got sold.While Hero will still be able to publish super-hero genre books, the sample group the Champions - whatever thier current line up is - and Harbinger may well go the way of Marksman, Rose, Flare, &c ....

[rjcurrie]

While Hero will still be able to publish super-hero genre books, the sample group the Champions - whatever thier current line up is - and Harbinger may well go the way of Marksman, Rose, Flare, &c ....

Well, Harbinger was not part of the deal, so yes, he will likely not appear in any Champions/Dark Champions products. But the Champions still exist. Defender still leads them. And Witchcraft is still on the team. This can be gleamed from the slight info that is already up on the Champions Online web site (http://www.champions-online.com).

[Drell]

I can't wait to see what you bring with 6th Ed. I'm a looong time player (since the mid-80's), and absolutely love what you & your team has done with the game.

[Opal]

But the Champions still exist. Defender still leads them. And Witchcraft is still on the team. Well, they do, for now. If a dispute rises between Cryptic and Hero in the future, though, Hero may lose access to them. I'm just pointing out that it's happened before.

[archermoo]

Well, they do, for now. If a dispute rises between Cryptic and Hero in the future, though, Hero may lose access to them. I'm just pointing out that it's happened before.

While there is the theoretical chance that it could happen, my understanding from Steve and Darren at Dundracon was that the contract for the sale of the Champions and Dark Champions IP is pretty solid. Part of the deal gives DoJ a free license in perpetuity to continue publishing RPG supplements using the Champions and Dark Champions IP. There are also a number of other provisions that they couldn't go into details on. They did say that there is a buyout clause in case Cryptic would ever want to remove the license, but that it was for a truley grotesque sum of money. :D

So much as I don't worry about getting hit by meteors, I'm not going to worry about DoJ losing the rights to publish Champions and Dark Champions stuff. Keep in mind that Steve was a practicing lawyer before he became a part of DoJ. :)

[rjcurrie]

Well, they do, for now. If a dispute rises between Cryptic and Hero in the future, though, Hero may lose access to them. I'm just pointing out that it's happened before.

And if it came to that, they'd do what Hero Games has done before -- create new characters and carry on. Sure they might not have the Champions name anymore but I think this move is worth the gamble.

[rjcurrie]

While there is the theoretical chance that it could happen, my understanding from Steve and Darren at Dundracon was that the contract for the sale of the Champions and Dark Champions IP is pretty solid. Part of the deal gives DoJ a free license in perpetuity to continue publishing RPG supplements using the Champions and Dark Champions IP. There are also a number of other provisions that they couldn't go into details on. They did say that there is a buyout clause in case Cryptic would ever want to remove the license, but that it was for a truley grotesque sum of money. :D

So much as I don't worry about getting hit by meteors, I'm not going to worry about DoJ losing the rights to publish Champions and Dark Champions stuff. Keep in mind that Steve was a practicing lawyer before he became a part of DoJ. :)

Exactly, I don't see the need for doom and gloom. I'm quite willing to have faith that Darren and Steve and company know what they are doing and are aware of any risks.

[Opal]

2. To take advantage of the opportunities presented by the release of the CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG. If I wanted to attract new players, I think I would publish an inexpensive, slim, perfect-bound book comparable to Sidekick to sell them on it, rather than push out a 2-enormous-volume hardcover set of rules with every persnickitty thing 27-year veterans of the system have been arguing about for 27 years.

When the very succesful release of d20 was done with D&D, they put just enough in the Players Handbook to play the game, and sold it as a loss leader. And that was a system that most people knew (or easily found out) you needed three books to play. Hero has managed to gain a reputation as a one-book system.

[McCoy]

Wait. What were we talking about?
The same thing we talk about every evening, how we'll take over the world!

[rjcurrie]

If I wanted to attract new players, I think I would publish an inexpensive, slim, perfect-bound book comparable to Sidekick to sell them on it, rather than push out a 2-enormous-volume hardcover set of rules with every persnickitty thing 27-year veterans of the system have been arguing about for 27 years.

When the very succesful release of d20 was done with D&D, they put just enough in the Players Handbook to play the game, and sold it as a loss leader. And that was a system that most people knew (or easily found out) you needed three books to play. Hero has managed to gain a reputation as a one-book system.

Well, the Hero System Basic Rulebook is scheduled to come out the month after 6th edition and Champions.

Edited Correction: The Basic Rulebook is coming out two months after 6th edition.

[Opal]

A good sign. Basic book, then Champions, then, later, the two ubervolumes might be better, IMHO, judging only from the success of other game rollouts.

[rjcurrie]

A good sign. Basic book, then Champions, then, later, the two ubervolumes might be better, IMHO, judging only from the success of other game rollouts.

Maybe but they probably want the big books out for Gen Con and Champions too. I also think they may want to avoid people thinking that the Basic Rulebook is the real 6th edition book. Also, people who are deciding between buying the 2 volumes and the Basic Rulebook may just buy the 2 volumes if they're available first. If the Basic is available first, they may just buy that and never buy the 2 volume set. From a sales point of view, which do you think Hero Games would prefer.

Also, from a practical point of view, the 2 volume set really needs to be written first so that it ensures that the Basic Rulebook is accurate. So, putting out Basic first would mean that Steve would have to have all 4 books written before Basic and Champions could go to the printer. By putting out the 2 volume set first, Steve can give himself a little more time to create the Basic Rulebook.

[casualplayer]

As one of the crusty old-timers who has been playing since before Champions II, I relish Steve's take on HERO System with Sixth Ed. So much of this game currently is patches that have been mistaken for core principles. I would love for someone to take the game to foundation and rebuild from there, and I'm hard pressed to think of a more likely candidate than Mr. Long. I've seen what he can do when creating a rules system from scratch: elegant, efficient and effortless works of beauty. There was a reverent tentativeness in making Fifth Ed that I wish he would have avoided and I have high hopes that won't be the case again.

Just sequester the gun fetish stuff in Dark Champions, ok? :sneaky::D

[James Gillen]

If I wanted to attract new players, I think I would publish an inexpensive, slim, perfect-bound book comparable to Sidekick to sell them on it, rather than push out a 2-enormous-volume hardcover set of rules with every persnickitty thing 27-year veterans of the system have been arguing about for 27 years.

I keep saying that and nobody listens to me....

jg

[GamePhil]

A good sign. Basic book, then Champions, then, later, the two ubervolumes might be better, IMHO, judging only from the success of other game rollouts.

Uhm, this is Hero. Do you really believe that would go over well?

[zaras]

I am very nervous about possible interactions between the champions MMORG and such directing the design ethic for 6th Ed. Acess to a new fanbase is nice for Herogames, not necesarily for your current fanbase.

That said if its anything like the quality of previous editions my worries will have been unfounded. :thumbup:

Meh, mentioning the MMORG in the same post as 6th ed made alarm bells ring.
:o

[archermoo]

I am very nervous about possible interactions between the champions MMORG and such directing the design ethic for 6th Ed. Acess to a new fanbase is nice for Herogames, not necesarily for your current fanbase.

That said if its anything like the quality of previous editions my worries will have been unfounded. :thumbup:

Meh, mentioning the MMORG in the same post as 6th ed made alarm bells ring.
:o

Steve and Darren both stated at the Monday Dundracon announcement that that would not be the case. Steve was in specific VERY adamant about it.

Champions Online will certainly effect the Champions Universe, as Cryptic now owns it and can make changes as they see fit. Much like DoJ made changes as they saw fit when they bought the IP. But that doesn't mean that it will have any effect on the core rules themselves.

[Egyptoid]

on many topics you have to say follow the money

[Supreme Serpent]

Uhm, this is Hero. Do you really believe that would go over well?

Sure! Just do the first book as HE and the second one as RO.

[Opal]

Uhm, this is Hero. Do you really believe that would go over well?With potential new players, yes, a smaller, inexpensive, book as a lead in could work very well. In fact, something along the lines of 3rd Edition. With a Champions II and III that added more powers, skills, advantages, limitations & disads, could work very well indeed. It's against the Hero philsophy, but it's a proven marketting strategy.

[GamePhil]

With potential new players, yes, a smaller, inexpensive, book as a lead in could work very well. In fact, something along the lines of 3rd Edition. With a Champions II and III that added more powers, skills, advantages, limitations & disads, could work very well indeed. It's against the Hero philsophy, but it's a proven marketting strategy.

I just personally like the order they're doing it in, as long as the simplified system is released within a month as planned. I'd prefer to have the "real" system out first, since it's what the simplifies one will be based on.

[Vondy]

Okay, I'm confused.

The hero system rulebook will be two volumes. Or does "two volumes" refer to the rulebook and some other book?

[Supreme Serpent]

The second book will focus on the rules for Adding Damage. ;)

[GamePhil]

The hero system rulebook will be two volumes. Or does "two volumes" refer to the rulebook and some other book?

Well, sort of. One book will go over character building, the other everything else.

[ghost-angel]

Okay, I'm confused.

The hero system rulebook will be two volumes. Or does "two volumes" refer to the rulebook and some other book?

The current best analogy is Book 1 will be the Character Creation Handbook and Book 2 will be the Combat Handbook (with all the Environmental stuff).

I have mixed feelings on the split.

On one hand I like the idea of 1 book being all I ever need.
On the other I think it's a good idea to separate Creation from Play.

[KawangaKid]

I keep saying that and nobody listens to me....
jg

I'm listening - and trying to figure out where the two volume thing was announced! I've been checking out the proposed rules changes and thinking about them so much...

... I'm against it. I think that we should pare down the Hero System to its core. Then a Hero System Companion book can be released with ALLLLLLLLLLL the options we want.

One of my favorite ways to market the Hero System rules was you only NEED one book to run ANY game setting. You'll WANT the rest of the books for other reasons (shortcuts to builds in the genres, instant settings, instant NPCs, etc.)

[Derek Hiemforth]

On one hand I like the idea of 1 book being all I ever need.


One of my favorite ways to market the Hero System rules was you only NEED one book to run ANY game setting.
This is still conceptually true, even if it won't still be literally true. The core rules of the HERO System are all you need to run in any game or genre. It's just that the core rules will now happen to be presented in two volumes instead of one.

I personally agree with you that I'd prefer the core rules to be more concise, so they can continue to fit in a single volume, and present the less crucial and more explanatory material in a "HERO System Companion" kind of book. However, I'm certain Hero Games won't do this, nor do I really think it would be advisable for them to.

Why?

Because I feel quite sure that total sales of Core Rules One and Core Rules Two would greatly exceed total sales of Core Rules and HERO System Companion. Too many gamers would decide they didn't need the Companion (or that only one person their group needed it).

Hero Games is in the business of selling books to make money. So as long as they're not flagrantly doing things to artificially boost sales (and they're not... splitting the core rules into two volumes is a legit approach), I can hardly begrudge them choosing to present their material in a way that won't cost them sales. :)

[Vondy]

This is still conceptually true, even if it won't still be literally true. The core rules of the HERO System are all you need to run in any game or genre. It's just that the core rules will now happen to be presented in two volumes instead of one.

I personally agree with you that I'd prefer the core rules to be more concise, so they can continue to fit in a single volume, and present the less crucial and more explanatory material in a "HERO System Companion" kind of book. However, I'm certain Hero Games won't do this, nor do I really think it would be advisable for them to.

Why?

Because I feel quite sure that total sales of Core Rules One and Core Rules Two would greatly exceed total sales of Core Rules and HERO System Companion. Too many gamers would decide they didn't need the Companion (or that only one person their group needed it).

Hero Games is in the business of selling books to make money. So as long as they're not flagrantly doing things to artificially boost sales (and they're not... splitting the core rules into two volumes is a legit approach), I can hardly begrudge them choosing to present their material in a way that won't cost them sales. :)

I can see and agree with the logic of your arugment from a business sense. My personal feeling, however, is that I would rather have one core book of mechanics and have all the other material (examples, advice, etcetera) shoved into a book entitled "secrets of the longster" or some such. I know that may not be the best thing for hero, but I still don't like it very much. I agree with your "sales sense," however.

[ghost-angel]

I agree completely with Derek's statement.

emotionally.. I just want one book.
logically I want it to be two books.

And the logic just makes way more sense here. So I'm shoving my emotional reaction into a box on this topic. :D

[SAVeira]

I have no problem with two books and here is why. Due to a couple of medical reasons I no longer the strength I had in my hands. One book would be just too hard for me to hold up for a long period of time. I believe that I am not alone in this situation.

[Tech]

I have mixed feelings with this but I am of 'wait & see' camp. I'm not happy the IP of Champions being sold but I am intrigued by Champions Online. I've read every post and seen alot of feelings: some pro, some against, some middle ground. I do understand that any company cannot simply sit on it's laurels and past achievements and still make money. I also have seen the powers-that-be take us from 'no hero system/champions books' to '5th edition and lots of books'.

I'm one of those that was around when the 1st edition of Champions first came out and started making a name. I've seen the 2nd-5th editions and I'm still playing Champions along with my group (most likely having a game this very evening). Gradually, most of 5th edition was accepted by me & my friends & brothers (but not all). I do want to point out that the reason so many books got bought by me, my friends & brothers is because we keep the genre alive. We disagree with alot of the 5th edition rules and merely stay with houserules or previous editions. It is important to give consideration to the voices of new players because the company wants to grow; it's also important to give considerations to old-timers because we can influence people to buy books or say 'it's not worth it, don't bother' and I've done both. What the results are of 6th edition eventually will again be considered by my group as I'm sure it will by all of herodom.

I want the 6th edition to be the kind of edition that new players of any age will look at it and say 'Yow! This is great! I'm going to tell my friends!'. By the same token, the rules are going to change. How much, time will tell. Steve and the others are trying to walk the fine line of making it acceptable to as many as possible and have it grow and yet not alienate any of the 'longer time players'. I don't envy him on this. He's put out dozens of questions for feedback because he wants our, well, feedback and that's good. Having more art will help draw in fresh blood, I'm sure. It bears repeating again that the main reason I first bought Champions 1st edtion was because of the cover, not the inside - for some art doesn't matter, for others it does.

It hasn't even been a week and players are throwing up their hands saying 'if this happens or that happens, I'm outta here'. I understand those feelings. By the same token though, let's wait and see. Let's give the forums time to hear from players to see what they want and don't want. Let's wait and see, not jumping to conclusions when it's going to be a long while; alot can happen in a year or less. If someone doesn't like something, please say so politely in the forum for the 6th edition and vice versa. For myself, I'm going to take time to add my thoughts and others, I'll read them carefully and add more thoughts. I'll wait & see.

[kaptainai]

I'm afraid I can't see me buying into it....I've spent far too much cash on the 5th Edition and most of the additional books to start over again.:thumbdown

[incrdbil]

I'm afraid I can't see me buying into it....I've spent far too much cash on the 5th Edition and most of the additional books to start over again.:thumbdown

Usually, no one starts all over agin. I've got plenty of 4th edition stuff around, that just got tweaked over.

And, in a way, if you bought Fred, thine 5ER, that was sort of startign over in a way--repurchased the main rules, and incorperated changes. People cheerfully bought the Champiosn universe update.

Its buying new product really..somethign we've been doing before.

[Lord Mhoram]

Usually, no one starts all over agin. I've got plenty of 4th edition stuff around, that just got tweaked over.



Yeah. I don't plan on starting over if we switch to sixth. It all depends on how much changes (and how much I like them) if I switch. If I don't, I'll take any ideas I like and houserule them into 5th (just like I kept some 4th ed (and even some 3rd) in my current 5th games). And with the template stuff in DH, that reflects my games. :)

[Derek Hiemforth]

Obviously, I'm an aberration. ;) I'll buy all the 6E stuff (unless Hero Games does something to radically tick me off, which I consider deeply unlikely), just because I'm a collector... I have every book ever published for the HERO System that I'm aware of. So I have to keep that collection complete in order to satisfy my twisted Psych Lims. :D

But if I wasn't an insane collector, then I'd probably be very likely to buy the 6E core rules only. The genre books getting redone for 6E would have to impress me more to make me buy them, just because I think the 5E genre books already rock on toast.

Of course, it's again worth noting that 6E is unlikely to get exceptionally heavy with re-done books. It might seem that way now, because they obviously have to publish the most central books first, and we've only seen the first few books in the 6E line. Once they get beyond that, I doubt they're likely to do tons of "do-overs" from 5E.

I.C.E did 55 books for 4E, and DOJ "re-did" only 9 of those for 5E, and that over a span of several years. At a glance, I see no big reason to think they would have dramatically more "re-dos" over the life cycle of 6E...

[archermoo]

Obviously, I'm an aberration. ;) I'll buy all the 6E stuff (unless Hero Games does something to radically tick me off, which I consider deeply unlikely), just because I'm a collector... I have every book ever published for the HERO System that I'm aware of. So I have to keep that collection complete in order to satisfy my twisted Psych Lims. :D

But if I wasn't an insane collector, then I'd probably be very likely to buy the 6E core rules only. The genre books getting redone for 6E would have to impress me more to make me buy them, just because I think the 5E genre books already rock on toast.

Of course, it's again worth noting that 6E is unlikely to get exceptionally heavy with re-done books. It might seem that way now, because they obviously have to publish the most central books first, and we've only seen the first few books in the 6E line. Once they get beyond that, I doubt they're likely to do tons of "do-overs" from 5E.

I.C.E did 55 books for 4E, and DOJ "re-did" only 9 of those for 5E, and that over a span of several years. At a glance, I see no big reason to think they would have dramatically more "re-dos" over the life cycle of 6E...

I will also likely buy all of the 6e stuff. I'm not really a collector, and I didn't buy anything but the core rules for any previous versions. Some of that was due to being exceptionally poor at the time, some due to a lack of interest since I don't run in the CU. One reason that I have purchased all of the 5th edition books is because I wanted to support the company. Part of it is because the books are GOOD. And part of it is because I hate running into the dreaded "See page x in book y", when I don't have book y and it is no longer in print. :)

The only negative I've seen so far in the 6e announcements is that at least the core books are almost certainly going to be printed in colour. I hate the feel of the glossy papers that generally have to be used for colour books. I'm hoping they manage to go with paper that doesn't feel like crap to me.

[Lucius]

On the other hand, you need to get newer gamers, many of whom learned of a "roleplaying game" as something you insert in a Playstation or CD drive
JG
:angst:
*SHUDDER*

Lucius Alexander

And the inevitable palindromedary

[kaptainai]

Usually, no one starts all over agin. I've got plenty of 4th edition stuff around, that just got tweaked over.

And, in a way, if you bought Fred, thine 5ER, that was sort of startign over in a way--repurchased the main rules, and incorperated changes. People cheerfully bought the Champiosn universe update.

Its buying new product really..somethign we've been doing before.

Except I didn't buy 5ER

[Derek Hiemforth]

The only negative I've seen so far in the 6e announcements is that at least the core books are almost certainly going to be printed in colour. I hate the feel of the glossy papers that generally have to be used for colour books. I'm hoping they manage to go with paper that doesn't feel like crap to me.
Failing that, you might be able to go the PDF route, and print them out as desired. More expensive in the long run, but customized. :)

[archermoo]

Failing that, you might be able to go the PDF route, and print them out as desired. More expensive in the long run, but customized. :)

Yup, I've though about that. I know, shock-surprise. ;) The downside is that I'm not really fond of any of the methods I could use to bind them if I went that route.

[SAVeira]

Yup, I've though about that. I know, shock-surprise. ;) The downside is that I'm not really fond of any of the methods I could use to bind them if I went that route.
If you live anywhere near an university, you most likely came find professional book binders who normal bind thesis and so. They normally do fine work.

[archermoo]

If you live anywhere near an university, you most likely came find professional book binders who normal bind thesis and so. They normally do fine work.

Hadn't thought of that. I work at UCSF. :)

[Kirby]

This is still conceptually true, even if it won't still be literally true. The core rules of the HERO System are all you need to run in any game or genre. It's just that the core rules will now happen to be presented in two volumes instead of one.In other words, you'll need two books for the core rules. The "conceptually true" is about a feasible as a concept car at an auto show. They show it to you, but they'll never make it.

[Kirby]

And, in a way, if you bought Fred, thine 5ER, that was sort of startign over in a way--repurchased the main rules, and incorperated changes. People cheerfully bought the Champiosn universe update.I have FREd, but not 5ER; I saw no reason to buy essentially the same book right after I purchased it. The same with HD v3. I saw no real reason to purchase it less than a year after I purchased HDv2. Thankfully I didn't because now there'd most likely be a new version coming out that I'd have to purchase in a year.

I'm still on the "wait and see" fence for 6E, but I'm also deciding whether this new edition will be worth purchasing or simply the point where I stop playing. My wife and I have already received our tax rebate check from the IRS and paid off our two remaining loans as well as one credit card. I'll be looking for a part time job soon, so in theory there will be some actual "play" money coming in that we haven't had in a while; however, I could use that money to pursue another interest.

In the same vein, I'm already playing an MMORPG, but I'm looking forward to Champions Online. I want to be a part of the beta testing, but in the end I only plan on being in ONE MMO game, so I might leave my other one if Champions Online does well.

[Kirby]

On one hand I like the idea of 1 book being all I ever need.
On the other I think it's a good idea to separate Creation from Play.
IF they can accomplish separating Creation from Play, then it will be well done. I just hope that the two book together don't cost 50%+ or more of what FREd did (at $40).

[ghost-angel]

I have FREd, but not 5ER; I saw no reason to buy essentially the same book right after I purchased it. The same with HD v3. I saw no real reason to purchase it less than a year after I purchased HDv2. Thankfully I didn't because now there'd most likely be a new version coming out that I'd have to purchase in a year.

No there won't. Dan went specifically to a "contract" mode to avoid making a new version.

He's stated many many times that unless he significantly redoes the codebase he's just going to update it. Even into Hero6E.

[ghost-angel]

IF they can accomplish separating Creation from Play, then it will be well done. I just hope that the two book together don't cost 50%+ or more of what FREd did (at $40).

Oh that's easy, look at Character Creation Handbook - that's pretty much Creation right there. Just add Equipment (Chapter 3 in 5ER) and you're done.

Play is Chapter 2 (Combat & Adventuring) and Chapter 4-8. And that's Play.

The system is already pretty neatly divided up conceptually. Just not physically.

[archermoo]

I have FREd, but not 5ER; I saw no reason to buy essentially the same book right after I purchased it. The same with HD v3. I saw no real reason to purchase it less than a year after I purchased HDv2. Thankfully I didn't because now there'd most likely be a new version coming out that I'd have to purchase in a year.



HD is on a 2 year maint contract. When 6e comes out, HD will be upgraded for the new rules. No need to pay more until the contract expires.

[TSandman]

The only negative I've seen so far in the 6e announcements is that at least the core books are almost certainly going to be printed in colour. I hate the feel of the glossy papers that generally have to be used for colour books. I'm hoping they manage to go with paper that doesn't feel like crap to me.

If they can do it with nice paper, it'll be a GREAT boost to attract newbie...

Good Looking books attracts attention (just take a look at CthulhuTech!) and what attracts attention has more chances of being sold.

B&W books are OK if done RIGHT (anyone remember the KULT rpg book??? damned I had headach just trying to read 10 pages!). Color books can be pain in the XYZ too (Ref: Mage: The Awakening... GOLD headlines on WHITE background... how Shiny, but how dumb!)

[archermoo]

IF they can accomplish separating Creation from Play, then it will be well done. (at $40).

Ick. I certainly hope they don't separate creation and play. Points are points. They are just a measurement of the usefulness of the ability. They aren't money that gets spent and is then gone.

That's actually one of the things I REALLY hated about GURPS.

[GamePhil]

Ick. I certainly hope they don't separate creation and play. Points are points. They are just a measurement of the usefulness of the ability. They aren't money that gets spent and is then gone.

That's actually one of the things I REALLY hated about GURPS.

Huh? I thought he was just talking about the fact that it will be in two books.

[Kirby]

Huh? I thought he [was] just talking about the fact that it will be in two books.I was. ;)

[Kirby]

No there won't. Dan went specifically to a "contract" mode to avoid making a new version.Well, that would be nice for those that purchased HDv3. IIRC (and I may be wrong) he did a two year contract which would be expiring in 2009. (Though, it may be a two year contract with the purchaser.)

[rjcurrie]

Well, that would be nice for those that purchased HDv3. IIRC (and I may be wrong) he did a two year contract which would be expiring in 2009. (Though, it may be a two year contract with the purchaser.)

The HD contract is 2 years from date of purchase. Dan has already stated that the 6E update will be covered under the normal contract.

[Kirby]

The HD contract is 2 years from date of purchase.OK. It's been a bit since v3 came out so I wasn't sure if his 2year contract was with HERO or with the purchaser. This was the part I was unsure of.

Dan has already stated that the 6E update will be covered under the normal contract.Yes, this part has already been stated twice. But since it's now been mentioned three times on the previous page, I guess I should note that I don't read Dan threads or his HD threads since v3 first came out.

[ghost-angel]

v3 has been out almost 2 yrs... reminds me I need to re-up my contract.

[Kirby]

IIRC (and I may be wrong) he did a two year contract which would be expiring in 2009. (Though, it may be a two year contract with the purchaser.)

The HD contract is 2 years from date of purchase.

OK. It's been a bit since v3 came out so I wasn't sure if his 2year contract was with HERO or with the purchaser. This was the part I was unsure of.
v3 has been out almost 2 yrs....Hmm, I think there's some sort of distortion echo going on here. ;)

[archermoo]

Yes, this part has already been stated twice. But since it's now been mentioned three times on the previous page, I guess I should note that I don't read Dan threads or his HD threads since v3 first came out.

Just as a note, if what you're looking for is info on HD, not reading Dan's threads about it is a good way to not get that info.

[Kirby]

Just as a note, if what you're looking for is info on HD....I haven't been.

Can we end with the derailing of this thread?

[archermoo]

I haven't been.

Can we end with the derailing of this thread?

Cool, I guess I misunderstood.

And just as a general tip, the best way to combat thread derails is to not reply to them. Or even to insert on topic replies. :)

[Kirby]

:dh:

[archermoo]

:dh:

Which is of course a reply. :)

[Kirby]

And just as a general tip, the best way to combat thread derails is to not reply to them. Or even to insert on topic replies. :)
Which is of course a reply. :)
Do I follow your actions or your words? Or is this just a "I need to get the last word/post in" kind of thing? :rolleyes:

I think this thread has served its purpose. Since even a moderator can't stay on topic, can this thread be locked?

[Lucius]

Do I follow your actions or your words? Or is this just a "I need to get the last word/post in" kind of thing? :rolleyes:

I think this thread has served its purpose. Since even a moderator can't stay on topic, can this thread be locked?

Second the motion to lock. Archermoo, want to make it unanimous?

Lucius Alexander

Hitting the palindromedary with a big stick for suggesting that we should buy the "Lockpicking" skill. Making wiseguy comments and dumb puns is my job in this partnership.

[archermoo]

Do I follow your actions or your words? Or is this just a "I need to get the last word/post in" kind of thing? :rolleyes:

I think this thread has served its purpose. Since even a moderator can't stay on topic, can this thread be locked?

Mostly I'm just amused by people that complain about off topic posts by making posts that are off topic. Therby doing the thing that they are complaining about. In general the easiest way to keep a thread on topic is to make on topic posts. If you don't have something on topic to say, not making off topic posts of your own is the next best way to do it.

It has nothing to do with "getting the last word in", at least on my part. It has to do with replying to posts that I have something to say about. And I almost always have something to say about off topic posts complaining about off topic posts.

[archermoo]

Second the motion to lock. Archermoo, want to make it unanimous?

Lucius Alexander

Hitting the palindromedary with a big stick for suggesting that we should buy the "Lockpicking" skill. Making wiseguy comments and dumb puns is my job in this partnership.

Don't see any reason to lock it. It has drifted, but once we stop discussing the drift it'll stop. If people have things to say about the original topic, it should be left open for them to do so.

[Southern Cross]

As we're trying to bring this thread under control,has Steve Long explained why he's getting rid of figured characteristics? How can we counter his reasons if we don't know what they are?
As you can tell,I'm against getting rid of figured characteristics.If the cost of all characteristics aren't bought down,we're going to have characteristic bloat,especially in the case of bricks,which also means that we'll have to alter Transform,as well.Plus,it's going to be much harder to convert characters to the 6th Edition.(In the case of Michael Surbook,who has hundreds of characters of Hero System characters on his website,this is a serious problem).
As you can tell,I think this proposed change is unfair (especially to bricks),and unrealistic besides.The only "weak bricks" I know in fact and fiction (Goliath,anyone?) are weaker because their extra Strength is derived from their size.

[archermoo]

As we're trying to bring this thread under control,has Steve Long explained why he's getting rid of figured characteristics? How can we counter his reasons if we don't know what they are?
As you can tell,I'm against getting rid of figured characteristics.If the cost of all characteristics aren't bought down,we're going to have characteristic bloat,especially in the case of bricks,which also means that we'll have to alter Transform,as well.Plus,it's going to be much harder to convert characters to the 6th Edition.(In the case of Michael Surbook,who has hundreds of characters of Hero System characters on his website,this is a serious problem).
As you can tell,I think this proposed change is unfair (especially to bricks),and unrealistic besides.The only "weak bricks" I know in fact and fiction (Goliath,anyone?) are weaker because their extra Strength is derived from their size.

He explains them in the firsts post of the Characteristics thread.

[incrdbil]

As you can tell,I'm against getting rid of figured characteristics.If the cost of all characteristics aren't bought down,we're going to have characteristic bloat,especially in the case of bricks,which also means that we'll have to alter Transform,as well.
I'm not following where you get any of those above conclusions.



Plus,it's going to be much harder to convert characters to the 6th Edition.(In the case of Michael Surbook,who has hundreds of characters of Hero System characters on his website,this is a serious problem).

Point totals adjust. thats not hard.



As you can tell,I think this proposed change is unfair (especially to bricks),and unrealistic besides.The only "weak bricks" I know in fact and fiction (Goliath,anyone?) are weaker because their extra Strength is derived from their size.


The benefits bricks draw frome figured characteristics is part of what many see as the problem--the simple benefits of STR were leading people to sugest increasing its costs due to the figured characteristics. Soits not as much as the change woud hurt bricks, but it would now equalize them in balance to other character types.

[Hugh Neilson]

The benefits bricks draw frome figured characteristics is part of what many see as the problem--the simple benefits of STR were leading people to sugest increasing its costs due to the figured characteristics. Soits not as much as the change woud hurt bricks, but it would now equalize them in balance to other character types.

I think this belongs on the characteristics thread. However, this comes down to the question of whether you presently find bricks unbalanced or balanced with other character types in their games. I'm not seeing balance problems in my games, and reducing available points for Bricks, or enhancing them for energy projectors, would give me some balance concerns, as discussed on the (rather lengthy) characteristics thread.

[Chris Goodwin]

As we're trying to bring this thread under control,has Steve Long explained why he's getting rid of figured characteristics? How can we counter his reasons if we don't know what they are?

Good reasons to keep them shouldn't be attempts to destroy his arguments. Good reasons to keep them should be reasons why the system needs them. He didn't say "I'm taking them out unless you can destroy my arguments point-by-point in Internet-style back-and-forth." He said, "I am strongly in favor of doing this and intend to implement this change unless I am persuaded otherwise by a particularly convincing argument."

I'm not going to speak for Steve, but from where I sit I think you have a better chance if your particularly convincing argument is one strongly in favor of keeping them, citing good reasons why they should be there. In other words, "Here's why they should stay," not "You're wrong, and here's why, point by point."

I've hammered on this long enough, and will stop hammering. If you want them to stay, then tell Steve they should stay.

[ghost-angel]

As we're trying to bring this thread under control,has Steve Long explained why he's getting rid of figured characteristics? How can we counter his reasons if we don't know what they are?

Don't counter anyone's arguments. Just present your own thoughts on why something should or shouldn't go that Steve's put on the table.

We don't need to debate in these threads. Merely present our ideas for Steve's own consumption.

[Silbeg]

The current best analogy is Book 1 will be the Character Creation Handbook and Book 2 will be the Combat Handbook (with all the Environmental stuff).

I have mixed feelings on the split.

On one hand I like the idea of 1 book being all I ever need.
On the other I think it's a good idea to separate Creation from Play.

I think I have to agree with you, g-a.

First, if they can get the cost of a single book down into the $25-30 range, they will be more competitive price-wise with other RPG books. This enables a player to get the stuff he needs to play the game without having to pay for all the stuff to run a game. Of course, for this to work, there should be at least a small section on combat basics in the chargen book.

Second, the split could enable them to put more detail into the non-chargen section without creating a 1000 page monstrosity (do we really need a book that can stop a .30-06 round? More description of the optional rules, and perhaps more optional rules. They could add sections on how to deal with scaling issues, and the like!

Then, each book could have a "genre-by-genre" section, which touches on what the eventual genre books would expand. In the chargen book (do we know the names of the two books yet?), there could be a couple of characters for each genre, with explanations of the principle of "REASONING FROM SPECIAL EFFECTS", buy building a character in total. In the "combat" book, it can explain issues like scaling, options for grittier combat, etc.

While I am concerned about the obsolescence of my current library, especially if the design of the game radically differs from the current style (which I honestly don't think will happen), I know that the descriptions and examples have only gotten better each time DOJ has released a new book.

Now, I would only hope that the indexes of two books reference each other, somehow. This would be vital in the use of the two books!




And, add to all of that, I could see DOJ releasing a single bound version of the two books, assuming that it hasn't grown in page length beyond the practical means of binding. I could see a HERO 6E exceeding 1000 pages, which would be very impractical to use. So, on this, maybe 2 books would be better from a wear prospective?

[CourtFool]

do we really need a book that can stop a .30-06 round?

Yes. What do you make your office armor out of?

[rjcurrie]

Yes. What do you make your office armor out of?

I find old CRC Handbooks work well.

[st barbara]

The obvious question that comes to mind is "How much will the new version cost ?" 5th Edition was about $aus 90 whenI bought it and is over $100 these days I think. Am I correct in assuming that the new book/books won't be any cheaper than that ? If it takes two new books to play the game (as a minimum) then that is $200 i'd have to outlay ! It might make me sound like some sort of scrooge but it DOES seem expensive.

[Supreme Serpent]

The obvious question that comes to mind is "How much will the new version cost ?" 5th Edition was about $aus 90 whenI bought it and is over $100 these days I think. Am I correct in assuming that the new book/books won't be any cheaper than that ? If it takes two new books to play the game (as a minimum) then that is $200 i'd have to outlay ! It might make me sound like some sort of scrooge but it DOES seem expensive.

If it ends up as two books for the core rules, I expect that the individual cost will be a bit lower - it's not going to be two books the size of 5th ed. Maybe more than $100aus for both of them combined, but probably nowhere near $200aus.

[Guelphite]

WE HAVE A WINNER!!! :celebrate

This indeed seems like too much of a coincidence. I smells a lot like GURPS 4e.

Okay, in all fairness, I can understand to some extent a release of a HERO System 6th Edition.

From a financial stand point, it makes perfect sense. A new edition creates a potential for increased revenue.
It also gives a chance to clear some issues from a "game mechanics" point of view as well. Some of the issues of "over-complication" (like the whole "Regeneration issue") in the mechanics can be finally dealt with, and cleaned up.
It gives a chance to "streamline" the book formatting, making it more "user-friendly".From a consumer standpoint, it raises some issues and questions.

Should I continue to buy new books for HERO System 5th Edition, Revised, knowing that in about one year... they will become "obsolete" and "outdated"? Shouldn't I wait, stop spending my $$$ for the materials related to HERO System 5th Edition, Revised, and wait until HERO System 6th Edition is released?
Is it worthwhile for me to buy the most current version of Hero Designer? This would mean that I would be buying a "two year" support agreement, and I may not be able to use it with the new HERO 6th Edition?For a consumer, like myself, I have to choose very carefully where I spend my $$$. I don't have the free money that I once had. These are decisions that I have to personally make, considering my financial standing. Although this is my issue, I know that I am probably not alone.

Personally, I am torn about the decision to release a HERO System 6th Edition.

So, for now... I'm just going to wait to see how this develops. :angst:

I'm in the same boat. Great, clean it up and simplify.
The last guy who criticized me felt that I also have a lot of time converting up to the new system.
I must admit that a lot of this came from when I bought the 5th 2002 then the revised edition (one or two years ago for me).
I will probably wait until 6 comes out but will wait for the new supplements hit the used section or buy damaged items.
I wished that I had the luxery of living at home and not paying rent. Hi Mom and Dad!

[James Gillen]

I have no problem with two books and here is why. Due to a couple of medical reasons I no longer the strength I had in my hands. One book would be just too hard for me to hold up for a long period of time. I believe that I am not alone in this situation.

As some of us get older we no longer have the strength to keep it upright, especially only with one hand. :straight:

JG

[Steve Long]

OK, it looks to me like to the extent there was ever any conversation here that was relevant to this forum, we've drifted away from it. Let's go back to talking about rules issues in this forum. ;)