Why We're Creating The 6th Edition -- Please Read Before Posting

[Steve Long]

Many fans are likely to ask “Why now for 6E?” or “Is 6E really necessary?”. We definitely think the time has come for 6E, and that having a Sixth Edition will make our products better and our fans’ gaming experiences better. We have two main reasons for this:

1. We can make the game better.

We have six years more experience at the job of writing and designing RPGs than we did when 5E came out, and six years more experience at layout, presentation, marketing, and the like. When I wrote the 5E manuscript I had explicit instructions about what I could and could not change, regardless of my own personal feelings on the matter, and I stuck to those instructions. When we published 5E we decided to stay that course rather than have me go back and rework things from the beginning to be more in tune with what I would have preferred to do. Now I have the opportunity to re-examine the HERO System from the ground up and make any changes I think are necessary, regardless of how “radical” they might be.

Beyond that, there’s the simple fact that we (and you) have six years more experience at thinking about and using the HERO System. We’ve published thousands of pages of new material for the HERO System, and that’s led to all sorts of ideas about improvements, additions, expansions, variants, and revisions that are worth including in the core rules. The time has come to make those improvements official.

2. To take advantage of the opportunities presented by the release of the CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG.

As many of you have read by now in our new CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG forum, Cryptic Studios has bought the Champions intellectual property and will release a massive multiplayer online roleplaying game based on it in 2009. That gives us access to a whole new customer base that’s never been exposed to our products before, and we want to publish books (primarily Champions books) that will appeal to them. That means reworking the books to attract their interest, such as by using art from the MMO and organizing the material to suit someone whose background is in MMOs rather than true RPGs (but without, I hasten to add, making the books less useful and appealing to our traditional RPG playing fans and customers). As long as we’re going to have to make changes along those lines, it’s the perfect opportunity to also make changes to the rules engine. (Though again, to make things perfectly clear, I am not changing the HERO System to work like an MMO, Cryptic Studios does not own the HERO System rules, and the CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG does not use the HERO System rules for character creation, task or combat resolution, or anything else.) To put it another way, as long as we’ve got the hood open to change the oil we might as well replace the spark plugs if it looks like they need it. ;)

[Omegaplex]

^ Enjoying milking this announcement thing, aren'cha?

;)

Methinks it's a licensing deal. If you land a big license (DC HERO, etc), it makes sense to work it from the ground up around it, rather than an add-on. I think most people are perfectly, blissfully happy with 'ole FREd without having something really earth-shaking warranting a 6th... years of writing experience simply means better 5th materials in the future ;)

Thoughts?

[CourtFool]

Honestly, I am glad to see a 6e. I am sure there is going to be a lot of people that are very angry about this decision (D&D 4e anyone?). I also think Hero might be going in a different direction than I would prefer to see. I am starting to lean more towards rules light system and it appears that Steve, in wanting to make Hero more granular, will be maintaining Hero as a rules heavy system. That being said, I know a lot of people that will agree with him.

I support you, Steve. I think it takes a lot of guts to announce this up front and honestly like this. You open yourself up for a lot of attacks (haters). And I will probably be banned for suggesting that ' Hero might be going in a different direction than I would prefer to see'. But that is me, a rebel without opposable thumbs.

[Psybolt]

What about reason #3?

[Jhaierr]

I was a little wary about 6th Edition when I heard about the announcement, but now that I'm reading this thread and others where you are talking about how you'll be examining everything from the ground up and fixing some of the problems that we all deal with, I'm beginning to feel positive about it. I particularly like the idea of simplifying needlessly complex things.

[yamamura]

And I will probably be banned for suggesting that ' Hero might be going in a different direction than I would prefer to see'. But that is me, a rebel without opposable thumbs.

Negative rep isn't good enough for you, you want to be banned too;) Seriously ther times that I like the granular feeling of HERO and others time I pulled out BESM 3ed and play that. I am currently in the latter phase but will swing around to 5Ed again. So I am behind Steve on this but I always have 5Ed and BESM if 6th is not for me.

[Theron]

When 5th edition came out, my biggest gripe at the time was that they didn't change enough. The reasons for that became clear over time and make sense in retrospect, but 2009 seems like a very reasonable time to bring on a new edition.

[Omegaplex]

I'm curious if this smacks of GURPS 4th to anybody else? I stopped buying GURPS when the new edition came out, largely for the same reason that I'm reluctant to getting into a HERO 6th. I'm sure the new edition will be superior mechanically, but I'll take tons of support from years of good books ('mostly compatible' notwithstanding) over relaunch, rehash, and rewritten (but sitll mostly the same books) any day.

Heck, GURPS is STILL releasing books covering material that I already own from 3rd... and 4th has been on the market for what, 3 years?

Guess that sums up my problems with any talk of a 'new edition' for any RPG I'm already invested in.

Thoughts?

[CourtFool]

I am not asking for BESM level rules light...but yes, I am curious to see how rule heavy 6e will be. I am still allowed to agree to disagree around these parts...right....right? Guys?

[Balok]

I'm curious if this smacks of GURPS 4th to anybody else? I stopped buying GURPS when the new edition came out, largely for the same reason that I'm reluctant to getting into a HERO 6th. I'm sure the new edition will be superior mechanically, but I'll take tons of support from years of good books ('mostly compatible' notwithstanding) over relaunch, rehash, and rewritten (but sitll mostly the same books) any day.

Heck, GURPS is STILL releasing books covering material that I already own from 3rd... and 4th has been on the market for what, 3 years?In the sense that both are new editions, sure.

Keep in mind that GURPS also changed production models from paperbacks at 128 pages to hardbacks at better than 200 pages. They had some problems with that, and this delayed their initial release. Eventually they decided their release plans were too ambitious for their staffing level and model. And Jackson didn't want to hire people wholesale because he's been burned (he says) hiring quickly and having to fire. SJG also devoted a lot of focus to the Munchkin line. That makes sense considering relative sales volume but it draws staff away from GURPS.

To sum up, gaming companies aren't interchangeable cogs. ;)

[Chris Goodwin]

When 5th edition came out, my biggest gripe at the time was that they didn't change enough. The reasons for that became clear over time and make sense in retrospect, but 2009 seems like a very reasonable time to bring on a new edition.

This I agree with. I'm happy to see 6th edition on the horizon and am looking forward to seeing what comes next.

[McCoy]

Waiting, watching, reserving judgement.

[memorax300]

Waiting, watching, reserving judgement.

Same here. Though I probably will cut back on my Hero purchases. I don't want to buy something that may or may not be compatible with 6ED.

[Beast]

this is my big worry

How much change will there be
will it be just mechanics and maybe some slight cost changes and a bit of work to redo all characters to 6th ed

what about already published books that have just come out
are they going to need to be redone completly or just have charaters changed

is this going to be Fusion again

Same here. Though I probably will cut back on my Hero purchases. I don't want to buy something that may or may not be compatible with 6ED.

[AlbertDeschesne]

Old Joke:

6th edition is just Transform...with a lot a adders and limiters.

Anyway, I think 6th ed is mainly needed to conform to the way most people approach gaming these days. Casually. So it'll need to be a little lighter in the rules, while still maintaining the "hero" aspect of the game.

I, for one, hope that it'll let you make characters that fit on trading cards easily. (Anyone who seen my deck of DC Heroes character cards for Metaverse, know what I mean.) :)

[Chris Goodwin]

I think a thing that will really help 6th edition will be books that you can use "out of the box". Something that you can pick up and in an hour have characters made and be playing. You could do that with first edition Fantasy Hero, but since 4th edition I don't think I've seen a Hero System book you could.

[CourtFool]

And here I have to disagree with Chris. I do not need another fluff filled role playing game. Give me the mechanics and I will steal the fluff from somewhere else. Of course, I am alone in this. You better go with Chris. Kids these days can't think for themselves and want one stop gaming all pre-packaged with pretty pictures and pre-built worlds.

[Chris Goodwin]

And I disagree with you and..uhh...agree with me. I honestly think that such a book would do more to attract new players, especially if that book was small and usable with (or packaged with!) Sidekick, even as an all-in-one a la PS238 and Lucha Hero, than all the simplifying and new-editioning.

Edit: More in-depth response here (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63466) to keep it off the 6th edition board.

[Gadodel]

Waiting, watching, reserving judgement.
Seconded...or thirded...anyways...

I spent a lot of time learning the rules for 5E. I finally got comfortable enough to actually Game Master for it just last year. More impressive, I managed to get some Die Hard-other System Users to try it out. Trust me, the latter was nothing short of a wish being fulfilled.

So, part of me is very nervous and the other part wondering if I can repeat the efforts I've made thus far. Time, will tell; I guess.

[Enforcer84]

I am not asking for BESM level rules light...but yes, I am curious to see how rule heavy 6e will be. I am still allowed to agree to disagree around these parts...right....right? Guys?
No. Back to your corner

[Enforcer84]

And with a straight face and no malice I ask: "If making the game lighter is the goal why did we spend the last few years printing Ultimate books that added more crunch?"

But beyond that question I'll make no judgments until I hold 6th Ed in my hand.

[James Gillen]

And with a straight face and no malice I ask: "If making the game lighter is the goal why did we spend the last few years printing Ultimate books that added more crunch?"

But beyond that question I'll make no judgments until I hold 6th Ed in my hand.

Not to answer that question for Steve but I always assumed that the Ultimate books were take-it-or-leave-it stuff that added on to the base and were not strictly necessary, with the possible exception of The Ultimate Martial Artist, which is just too useful in general not to be "canon." I don't know how many of us need Mental Combat Modifiers, for example.

JG

[CourtFool]

No. Back to your corner

Yeah...that is what I expected from this board.

[Enforcer84]

Yeah...that is what I expected from this board.
You know you like it. :)

[caris]

Seriously, I do not find myself getting excited about this decision/announcement. If anything, it actually kind of bothers me. While I'm not perfectly happy with 5th, I don't feel that there are enough things I want changed to warrant a new edition. Which of course, leads to the part that is really worries me, that I'm going to see little/few changes to the things I have problems with, and huge changes to things that I do like and/or have no problem with, changes that might detract from my gaming experience.

I really have to disagree with a decision that was apparently made with 5th Ed. That was the time to introduce the level of changes that I’m inferring are Steve’s intent/hope for this new edition. You had such a nice clean break from the previous edition there would be little of the compatibility issues that are coming up in people’s minds that we have already heard here.

I have a somewhat different concern. Unlike 6 years ago, I’ve had six years of exposure to Steve’s style of gaming as expressed in the rules and his rulings. I’m pretty sure that I don’t want to see the base rules moved more in that direction.

[lemming]

I've liked changes in each edition and hated changes in each edition. Every time there's been entertainment derived from reading & digesting the rules, so I'm fine.

[Boll Weevil]

I too will withhold judgment until I see the changes. I was a little upset when 5Er came out. My less-than-two-years-old rulebook was functional but all my page numbers were wrong (I use these boards for guidance A LOT). I would welcome a restructuring of the rules a la 4th to 5th but a drastic change that would render my several hundred dollars worth of current material worthless would end my Hero purchases.

[Hugh Neilson]

Not to answer that question for Steve but I always assumed that the Ultimate books were take-it-or-leave-it stuff that added on to the base and were not strictly necessary, with the possible exception of The Ultimate Martial Artist, which is just too useful in general not to be "canon." I don't know how many of us need Mental Combat Modifiers, for example.

The size of the core rules is often noted as an impediment for new players. Paring the base rules down and adding optional rules in other books seems the norm. I like having everything in one book, but is it getting unwieldy? Should some options be saved for later books?

Consider that many detractors of Hero's "very complex, huge, intimidating rulebook" offer the option of games with smaller base rulebooks and a few dozen (or few hundred) supplemental books. They don't have less rules, they deliver in smaller parcels.

[steamteck]

I'm pretty happen with the core mechanics of 5th and everything bandied abot on the boards seems quite inferior to the current way of doing things for the core concepts so I'm wary but listening. Won't take too much fundamental change to turn me off

[MisterBaldy]

I'm curious if this smacks of GURPS 4th to anybody else? I stopped buying GURPS when the new edition came out, largely for the same reason that I'm reluctant to getting into a HERO 6th. I'm sure the new edition will be superior mechanically, but I'll take tons of support from years of good books ('mostly compatible' notwithstanding) over relaunch, rehash, and rewritten (but sitll mostly the same books) any day.

Heck, GURPS is STILL releasing books covering material that I already own from 3rd... and 4th has been on the market for what, 3 years?

Guess that sums up my problems with any talk of a 'new edition' for any RPG I'm already invested in.

Thoughts?
WE HAVE A WINNER!!! :celebrate

This indeed seems like too much of a coincidence. I smells a lot like GURPS 4e.

Okay, in all fairness, I can understand to some extent a release of a HERO System 6th Edition.

From a financial stand point, it makes perfect sense. A new edition creates a potential for increased revenue.
It also gives a chance to clear some issues from a "game mechanics" point of view as well. Some of the issues of "over-complication" (like the whole "Regeneration issue") in the mechanics can be finally dealt with, and cleaned up.
It gives a chance to "streamline" the book formatting, making it more "user-friendly".From a consumer standpoint, it raises some issues and questions.

Should I continue to buy new books for HERO System 5th Edition, Revised, knowing that in about one year... they will become "obsolete" and "outdated"? Shouldn't I wait, stop spending my $$$ for the materials related to HERO System 5th Edition, Revised, and wait until HERO System 6th Edition is released?
Is it worthwhile for me to buy the most current version of Hero Designer? This would mean that I would be buying a "two year" support agreement, and I may not be able to use it with the new HERO 6th Edition?For a consumer, like myself, I have to choose very carefully where I spend my $$$. I don't have the free money that I once had. These are decisions that I have to personally make, considering my financial standing. Although this is my issue, I know that I am probably not alone.

Personally, I am torn about the decision to release a HERO System 6th Edition.

So, for now... I'm just going to wait to see how this develops. :angst:

[Kdansky]

I'm all for it. Honestly, I did not believe this to happen. But there are quite a few things I would like to see. To sum up:

- No simplification. I am quite happy with what we have, and I don't think for example having only 3-6 stats is better, quite the opposite.
- No grandfathering. I will happily rewrite all my characters. That's something I actually enjoy ;) Get rid of the abominations (eg. figured con/str problem)

I want sleek, conceptually strong rules! Gogo!

[Velocinox]

As someone who has posted before on the Champions MMO concept, I wish you all the best in your new partnership and the exciting new path Steve, Derek, and all the other Hero writers are going to get to explore.

Here's my hopes that you get your slice of the 10 million times 15 times 12.

[Edsel]

Waiting to see all three reasons before passing judgment. I have pretty much thrown-in my lot with the Hero System, it is about the only RPG our group ever plays. I will probably stick with Hero unless the 6th Ed really disagrees with me.

[Omegaplex]

WE HAVE A WINNER!!! :celebrate

This indeed seems like too much of a coincidence. I smells a lot like GURPS 4e.



Okay, in all fairness, I can understand to some extent a release of a HERO System 6th Edition.
From a financial stand point, it makes perfect sense. A new edition creates a potential for increased revenue.
It also gives a chance to clear some issues from a "game mechanics" point of view as well. Some of the issues of "over-complication" (like the whole "Regeneration issue") in the mechanics can be finally dealt with, and cleaned up.
It gives a chance to "streamline" the book formatting, making it more "user-friendly".Well, the main problem I have is that I'll be waiting another 5 years to get books I don't already own. A big part of why I loved GURPS 3rd (and HERO 5th) is that they had an incredibly diverse array of books on the market.

With the GURPS relaunch, what have they released? Gee, Rules, Martial Arts, Powers, Bio-Tech, High-Tech, Space, Fantasy... blah blah blah. ALL the same stuff already done for 3rd, just facelifted. I want something NEW.

Same thing will happen with HERO - heck, it's even on the 2009 schedule. What books does HERO get after 6th launches? Martial Arts, Sidekick, Champions, and Champions Universe. I suppose Space, Fantasy, and Dark Champions will follow, along with UNTIL and VIPER sourcebooks, Pulp, villain books...

Anybody else see what I'm getting at here? It's like the 'new book' days are over. Time to go back and redo all the stuff we've all got. That's why I bailed on GURPS, and why I'm tentative about HERO.

[Akiva]

I've always been confused at why people get so upset and offended at the publication of a new edition of their favorite game. They seem to either suddenly point the finger at the publisher and accuse them of suddenly becoming greedy or they threaten to leave the game entirely. Also, the comparisons to GURPS 4e are odd: I'm certain that if GURPS wasn't also a generic system, no one would even think about it. I don't see people pointing at the publication of Ars Magica 5th Edition as some kind of example at how DoJ has gone from a beloved friend to a shifty whisper in a back alley.

No matter what, though, it always boils down to this: when you get into a game system, you face one of two possible eventual realities: either one day they're going to publish a new edition or they're going to discontinue the line. No major game at HERO's level has ever been able to get away with publishing a 'final edition' of the game and realistically maintaining it and themselves as a company forever through supplements only. And when faced with a new version of HERO or the end of HERO all together, which one would you choose?

Personally, I'll go with a new version of HERO.

[Akiva]

Also, I want to add that I wish that I had another year with the HERO system before these discussions started up. I've got experience in this sort of thing and have helped with new editions of Aria: Canticle of the Monomyth (which, sadly, never got anywhere) and Rolemaster (which, sadly, has been delayed until 2010 or later). Unfortunately, I am simply not confident enough with HERO yet to be of any real assistance here at all. I'll probably have to sit this round out.

Ah, well. I'll stick around for the 7th Edition discussions in 2015.

Heh heh heh.

[Chris Goodwin]

Because some people have spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars on books that they don't want to see be made useless.

I don't want to see any more changes made between fifth and sixth than were made between fourth and fifth, or third and fourth.

I can still, with minor tweaks, use materials released for third edition with 5e. If I can't do that with sixth edition, I'm a lot less likely to want to get into it.

[Akiva]

And, as far as I can tell, I don't think all of our 5th edition books are going to suddenly burst into flames the moment 6th edition hits the shelves. Sure, you can argue that, with 6th edition, support for 5th effectively ends but isn't it also argued that one of the best features of HERO is that you don't need anything other than the main rulebook to play? I can kind of understand the supplement argument with other systems where those supplements are required to even play the game (try playing a lengthy GURPS 3e fantasy campaign with the core rulebook only) but with HERO? Sure, the HERO supplements are all helpful but they are not required.

Furthermore, considering the kind of publisher that DoJ is, I'd be surprised if we don't see some kind of conversion book that will keep most of the 5th edition supplements useful. Heck, maybe it'll even be published as a free PDF.

[Maur]

Well, even if they release a new edition, they can't force gamers to move to it once the gamers have copies of the previous edition. WOTC can't force gamers to change to 4th Ed and I don't think they can stop publishers from continuing to publish content under the OGL for v3/3.5. Same with HERO. People still play 4th Ed even though 5th is out. Why would you stop playing 5th just because 6th is out?

[Chris Goodwin]

And, as far as I can tell, I don't think all of our 5th edition books are going to suddenly burst into flames the moment 6th edition hits the shelves. Sure, you can argue that, with 6th edition, support for 5th effectively ends but isn't it also argued that one of the best features of HERO is that you don't need anything other than the main rulebook to play? I can kind of understand the supplement argument with other systems where those supplements are required to even play the game (try playing a lengthy GURPS 3e fantasy campaign with the core rulebook only) but with HERO? Sure, the HERO supplements are all helpful but they are not required.

No, but you end up with new people effectively speaking a different language, and a harder time finding players for your favorite version of the game.

Like it or not, helping people's investments in books keep their value can be a valid reason for minimizing forward incompatibility.

Well, even if they release a new edition, they can't force gamers to move to it once the gamers have copies of the previous edition. WOTC can't force gamers to change to 4th Ed and I don't think they can stop publishers from continuing to publish content under the OGL for v3/3.5. Same with HERO. People still play 4th Ed even though 5th is out. Why would you stop playing 5th just because 6th is out?

See above. New players will be playing 6th. Harder to get someone who has just bought a shiny new 6th edition book to play in your 5er game. Easier to give the guy with $1000 worth of 5e books on his shelf a reason to buy into 6th, and let him keep using those books.

[Simon]

No, but you end up with new people effectively speaking a different language, and a harder time finding players for your favorite version of the game.

Like it or not, helping people's investments in books keep their value can be a valid reason for minimizing forward incompatibility.
Errr...but weren't you just saying earlier how you still play 3rd edition materials in 5th? So the terminology and even the rules have not changed that much.

Why do people seem to immediately jump to the worst-possible-case scenario in their heads without any information to back it up and run with it as the gods-given truth?

Why would 6th suddenly be a radical departure from the core rules? Why indeed when Steve has said that this is not his intent? Given this, and your previously stated ability to still use materials from several editions ago (if you count 5ER as a new edition), why the sudden belief that when 6th comes out everyone will be speaking a different language and none of your 5th edition (or even 4th/3rd) materials will be usable?

[Chris Goodwin]

Errr...but weren't you just saying earlier how you still play 3rd edition materials in 5th? So the terminology and even the rules have not changed that much.

Yes, and recall I said they didn't change that much between third and fifth.

Why would 6th suddenly be a radical departure from the core rules? Why indeed when Steve has said that this is not his intent? Given this, and your previously stated ability to still use materials from several editions ago (if you count 5ER as a new edition), why the sudden belief that when 6th comes out everyone will be speaking a different language and none of your 5th edition (or even 4th/3rd) materials will be usable?

A lot of proposals have been floated, some of them pretty radical. It's easy to look at those in the aggregate and think that the sky may be preparing to fall. Perhaps we won't be seeing all of them in the final product, but we're seeing all of them in the discussion stage, and it's hard to separate them. We don't know at this point which ones will make the final cut.

[Simon]

Yes, and recall I said they didn't change that much between third and fifth.



A lot of proposals have been floated, some of them pretty radical. It's easy to look at those in the aggregate and think that the sky may be preparing to fall. Perhaps we won't be seeing all of them in the final product, but we're seeing all of them in the discussion stage, and it's hard to separate them. We don't know at this point which ones will make the final cut.
Please take this in the spirit it's intended (a completely straight question with no outside implications): were you around for the discussion of 5th?

The exact same process went on.

Look to Steve's initial statements about his goals for 6th. If you need an idea of where things are going to go with the new edition, listening to what the Line Developer wants to do with it and what level of changes he's looking at are a pretty good place to start (note: not ideas that he's posting for input about, but the general direction and concepts that he posted in the top threads of this forum)

I've seen a truly ridiculous amount of wild speculation and hand-wringing over this announcement.....without much in the way of any solid backing. Those folks that are reading over what Steve's intentions are and where he's looking to take things for 6th seem to all be saying that it's looking very promising.

You yourself have said that your past experience has shown very little change between even two major revisions of the rules. I ask again, why would you suddenly jump to the conclusion that this pattern will cease and 6th will be a completely different system with completely different terminology, rules, and mechanics. When the guy behind it all has pretty much stated that this will not be the case?

Wouldn't it make more sense to go with "this will likely be very similar to past version updates" than "this will be unlike anything we have ever seen before -- Steve has given into greed and sold us all out" ?

[Thia Halmades]

Again, the more I'm reading this, and the more I look at the history, the more I'm asking myself: "Really, are we going to change that much? Really?"

I doubt it. The core of HERO is clearly intended to be kept; this isn't Fuzion, and it isn't d20, and while everyone is going "Oh noes! GURPZ 4.0!!@#!!~!@eleven!!" I'm going "Well, we had 5th... and I came in at 5th Revised and I've purchased at least 500 in books since then, and I own Robot Warriors (3rd Ed) and I've used it. I can't imagine a world where my materials are simply completely outdated, for example, from D&D 2nd Edition to 3rd Edition."

I've been advocating the same basic stance and I'll stick to it until proven otherwise:

1. This is inevitable, and if it's good for the company, and the company gets more money to publish more books, that's good for me, the consumer.

2. I'd like to see the rules refined and clarified anyway, and even though not a thing I say may make it into the new system, I'll at least know that my opinion is valued and that I made an effort to contribute.

3. I play Heroic level games, and this is a great opportunity to put in what I've wanted the whole time, which is a clearer delineation between Heroic & Super-Heroic.

4. I agree with Court-Fool; everyone should have access to the rules and be able to build whatever they want. The purpose of HERO is to be a tool kit by which you build an Engine. I think, also, that HERO should lay down "core guidelines" in terms of consistency with armor, damage, and scale. Then Chris has what he wants; people can get to the fun very easily. And Court-Fool has what he wants; we can make our fun by investing the work. And I have what I think is best: A game that anyone can get into inside of a few hours, but can take years to master and get the nuances of.

Here's my unnerving thought for the day: "I'm agreeing with Simon. The apocalypse IS coming." ;) OH! OH! Dan, while I'm thinking about it -- will HDv4 (6.0 compliance) launch at the same time as 6th Edition?! Ohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohplease?!

[Chris Goodwin]

Please take this in the spirit it's intended (a completely straight question with no outside implications): were you around for the discussion of 5th?


In fact, I was. Emailed Steve my questionnaire and everything. I'd like to think I'm the reason Aid is 10 points per die and Healing works the way it does. (Anyone who wants to aim brickbats my way for that can feel free, now.)

Look to Steve's initial statements about his goals for 6th. If you need an idea of where things are going to go with the new edition, listening to what the Line Developer wants to do with it and what level of changes he's looking at are a pretty good place to start (note: not ideas that he's posting for input about, but the general direction and concepts that he posted in the top threads of this forum)

I've seen a truly ridiculous amount of wild speculation and hand-wringing over this announcement.....without much in the way of any solid backing. Those folks that are reading over what Steve's intentions are and where he's looking to take things for 6th seem to all be saying that it's looking very promising.

You yourself have said that your past experience has shown very little change between even two major revisions of the rules. I ask again, why would you suddenly jump to the conclusion that this pattern will cease and 6th will be a completely different system with completely different terminology, rules, and mechanics. When the guy behind it all has pretty much stated that this will not be the case?

Wouldn't it make more sense to go with "this will likely be very similar to past version updates" than "this will be unlike anything we have ever seen before -- Steve has given into greed and sold us all out" ?

Well, it would make more sense to assume there won't be radical changes. But:

We have six years more experience at the job of writing and designing RPGs than we did when 5E came out, and six years more experience at layout, presentation, marketing, and the like. When I wrote the 5E manuscript I had explicit instructions about what I could and could not change, regardless of my own personal feelings on the matter, and I stuck to those instructions. When we published 5E we decided to stay that course rather than have me go back and rework things from the beginning to be more in tune with what I would have preferred to do. Now I have the opportunity to re-examine the HERO System from the ground up and make any changes I think are necessary, regardless of how “radical” they might be.

and

1. Everything is up for consideration.

There are no sacred cows here, no forbidden ground, no boundaries limiting where I’m going to go in my quest to make the HERO System rules even better — and therefore no restrictions on what you can suggest to me.

Again, we don't have any way of knowing at this point what's going to be kept and what's going to be changed.

Edit: I'd like to think I'm not just being Chicken Little, and trying to dodge pieces of sky. I'm trying to bring up real concerns.

[Thia Halmades]

Edit: I'd like to think I'm not just being Chicken Little, and trying to dodge pieces of sky. I'm trying to bring up real concerns.

Diamond Spear posted a news thread some time ago about a mother who'd taken her kids car away because she found alcohol in it. The conversation derailed so badly that were "roleplaying" the kid and the mom, making all KINDS of insane inferences about how she was abusive and the kid would go down in history as being mocked and reviled and so on. And I pointed out, calmly: "How on earth did you cats get to this point when you literally have no information to support anything you're saying?"

And CrosshairCollie responded: "Dude. It's the internet. We don't need facts."

Point being: Chris, take at face value I respect you as an individual and read your posts and value your opinion. We're both Giant Robot Junkies and we share very common interests and from what I've seen and we've discussed, very common playstyles. At the end of the day -- at the end of THIS DAY -- we do not have ANY information that would lead us to believe that the sky is falling. Steve hasn't started writing yet.

Steve hasn't even posted any new RULES yet. He's just brought up things that HE gets questions about. This is The Can of Worms. All those times Steve said "I don't answer design/philosophy questions?" Now I know why. Because he was told to keep HERO a specific way. And now he's had the handcuffs taken off and he can do it "his" way.

I may not like his way. I may freaking HATE his way (for all I loved the Big Book of Beating Ass, it never made its way into a game), but I want more granularity, better vehicle construction rules, and a new book on Giant Robots far more than I want to worry about whether I won't like 6E. So I'm choosing to be optimistic. I think anything else at this point is crying Wolf.

We don't know, but honestly, other than some of my books read like law texts, I love everything I have. I have no reason to believe that I won't at least "really like" 6E, and i'm hoping I love it as much as 5ER.

[Chris Goodwin]

Diamond Spear posted a news thread some time ago about a mother who'd taken her kids car away because she found alcohol in it. The conversation derailed so badly that were "roleplaying" the kid and the mom, making all KINDS of insane inferences about how she was abusive and the kid would go down in history as being mocked and reviled and so on. And I pointed out, calmly: "How on earth did you cats get to this point when you literally have no information to support anything you're saying?"

And CrosshairCollie responded: "Dude. It's the internet. We don't need facts."

Point being: Chris, take at face value I respect you as an individual and read your posts and value your opinion. We're both Giant Robot Junkies and we share very common interests and from what I've seen and we've discussed, very common playstyles. At the end of the day -- at the end of THIS DAY -- we do not have ANY information that would lead us to believe that the sky is falling. Steve hasn't started writing yet.

Steve hasn't even posted any new RULES yet. He's just brought up things that HE gets questions about. This is The Can of Worms. All those times Steve said "I don't answer design/philosophy questions?" Now I know why. Because he was told to keep HERO a specific way. And now he's had the handcuffs taken off and he can do it "his" way.

I may not like his way. I may freaking HATE his way (for all I loved the Big Book of Beating Ass, it never made its way into a game), but I want more granularity, better vehicle construction rules, and a new book on Giant Robots far more than I want to worry about whether I won't like 6E. So I'm choosing to be optimistic. I think anything else at this point is crying Wolf.

We don't know, but honestly, other than some of my books read like law texts, I love everything I have. I have no reason to believe that I won't at least "really like" 6E, and i'm hoping I love it as much as 5ER.

Garrrr. You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours.

Really, I'm going to try to stay reasonable.

[Thia Halmades]

Garrrr. You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours.

Really, I'm going to try to stay reasonable.

That's all I'm asking of anyone. I'm trying to be the voice of reason here. I'm a 6thgnostic. I neither believe that 6th is great, nor do I believe 6th is bad. I think that the concept of me putting in my 0.02 is pretty awesome, and I choose to be upbeat about it because it's gonna happen anyway. May as well enjoy it. :D

And you can rep me as soon as the cycle comes 'round. We all know Thia loves his rep. ;)

[Akiva]

No, but you end up with new people effectively speaking a different language, and a harder time finding players for your favorite version of the game.

You're going to have that problem anyway. If HERO 6th doesn't come out, the influx of new HERO players will continue to be as it has been. People who get into HERO because of the new edition will get into it to play the new edition. Those players would probably have never been part of some pool of untapped 5ER players that you could tap into; they would've stayed playing whatever game they were playing.

As for 5ER players moving to 6E diminishing that pool of potential players, then, well, yes, that's a valid argument and it's always the one fairly indefensible example of the rifts caused by new editions. It's the one casualty that can't really be assuaged between editions even if the new edition is very similar to the old; there will be differences (in HERO's case, most likely in Character Point levels and costs) enough to make direct play impossible without some kind of conversion.

Like it or not, helping people's investments in books keep their value can be a valid reason for minimizing forward incompatibility.

And I'm sure that Steve wants to achieve as much backward compatibility as he can but a line has to be drawn somewhere. On the other hand, just because one has spent x amount of dollars doesn't guarantee anything. No one is owed anything because they've invested so much. You've bought books, not stock in a company. I don't mean to be dismissive but there was never any guarantee of life expectancy of those books.

As I wrote above, I make money and I budget for game purchases. I expect to buy so much per year and if I'm buying new 6E books rather than new 5E books, it's still the same to my bank account. And, of my 5E books, I'll still get a lot of use out of them.

On the other hand, with all this handwaving about GURPS 4E, I'd like to point out that SJG clearly recognizes this problem and, unlike 3E books, 4E books are more background information rather than rules crunch. Those books will be useful whether you're playing 4E, 3E, or some other game. Now, having written that, I absolutely adore that HERO 5E supplements are as crunchy as the main rulebook. I love how crunchy HERO is all around.

So, I'm not entirely unsympathetic and I agree that HERO 6E shouldn't be a radical redesign but, being a newcomer to the game, and having only read 5ER, I can see where a new edition is very much needed. I have around 30 years of RPG experience, and most of it with heavy games, and HERO is still sometimes confusing, difficult to learn, and incredibly overwhelming.

But, I still maintain that you have two choices with any game system: new editions or the game going out of print.

[Enforcer84]

You're going to have that problem anyway. If HERO 6th doesn't come out, the influx of new HERO players will continue to be as it has been. People who get into HERO because of the new edition will get into it to play the new edition. Those players would probably have never been part of some pool of untapped 5ER players that you could tap into; they would've stayed playing whatever game they were playing.

As for 5ER players moving to 6E diminishing that pool of potential players, then, well, yes, that's a valid argument and it's always the one fairly indefensible example of the rifts caused by new editions. It's the one casualty that can't really be assuaged between editions even if the new edition is very similar to the old; there will be differences (in HERO's case, most likely in Character Point levels and costs) enough to make direct play impossible without some kind of conversion.



And I'm sure that Steve wants to achieve as much backward compatibility as he can but a line has to be drawn somewhere. On the other hand, just because one has spent x amount of dollars doesn't guarantee anything. No one is owed anything because they've invested so much. You've bought books, not stock in a company. I don't mean to be dismissive but there was never any guarantee of life expectancy of those books.

As I wrote above, I make money and I budget for game purchases. I expect to buy so much per year and if I'm buying new 6E books rather than new 5E books, it's still the same to my bank account. And, of my 5E books, I'll still get a lot of use out of them.

On the other hand, with all this handwaving about GURPS 4E, I'd like to point out that SJG clearly recognizes this problem and, unlike 3E books, 4E books are more background information rather than rules crunch. Those books will be useful whether you're playing 4E, 3E, or some other game. Now, having written that, I absolutely adore that HERO 5E supplements are as crunchy as the main rulebook. I love how crunchy HERO is all around.

So, I'm not entirely unsympathetic and I agree that HERO 6E shouldn't be a radical redesign but, being a newcomer to the game, and having only read 5ER, I can see where a new edition is very much needed. I have around 30 years of RPG experience, and most of it with heavy games, and HERO is still sometimes confusing, difficult to learn, and incredibly overwhelming.

But, I still maintain that you have two choices with any game system: new editions or the game going out of print.
True.
And if they go to a new edition and we don't buy all the new books again they might go out of print.

ILike I said above I'll wait until I've seen it before I pass judgement on 6th. I doubt however, that I'll be buying much more.

[Xotl]

Hero is not its rules, but a philosophy: the ability to do anything. There are very few mechanics that, removed, make the game no longer Hero. Now, that having been said, radical change is *not* the same thing as simplification and streamlining. The goal should be for Hero to have the power to do everything it could do in the past, with less time, more intuitiveness, and possibly a lower word count. If that means that some things are removed, renamed, or simplified, then that's fine, as long as it serves the main goal.

Can Hero work the same with a couple of stats trimmmed? Yes. Do we need four attack powers when one will do? No. How about the number of defenses? Obviously not. Does there need to be three different power frameworks? I don't believe so.

Ultimately I want to be able to make the same bat-winged three-headed explosive allergic-to-jello firebreathing hellspawn from Dimension X character in 6th that I could in 5th, only faster and with the need for less reading and writing. Any increase in clarity and reduction in rules is to be applauded. It's only once you've hit the point where I can't do something, or that you make change for the sake of change, that you've gone too far.

[Kirby]

Many fans are likely to ask “Why now for 6E?” or “Is 6E really necessary?”...We have three main reasons for this:

1. We can make the game better.


2. Reason #2 withheld pending the Big Announcement on February 18, 2008.So has Reason # 2 been announced somewhere? And is there a #3 reason or did Steve miscount?

Reminds me of a Jerry Springer slice where he asks a woman to "give [him] a number between one and three," and she says "Four."

[Enforcer84]

Hero is not its rules, but a philosophy: the ability to do anything. There are very few mechanics that, removed, make the game no longer Hero. Now, that having been said, radical change is *not* the same thing as simplification and streamlining. The goal should be for Hero to have the power to do everything it could do in the past, with less time, more intuitiveness, and possibly a lower word count. If that means that some things are removed, renamed, or simplified, then that's fine, as long as it serves the main goal.

Can Hero work the same with a couple of stats trimmmed? Yes. Do we need four attack powers when one will do? No. How about the number of defenses? Obviously not. Does there need to be three different power frameworks? I don't believe so.

Ultimately I want to be able to make the same bat-winged three-headed explosive allergic-to-jello firebreathing hellspawn from Dimension X character in 6th that I could in 5th, only faster and with the need for less reading and writing. Any increase in clarity and reduction in rules is to be applauded. It's only once you've hit the point where I can't do something, or that you make change for the sake of change, that you've gone too far.

I have to disagree. They did that with Fuzion, it didn't fly...the influx of new blood did not stem the bleeding from the old guard leaving. There might be other factors in the falure of Champions: New Millennium, but that's what it looked like to me. And I bought the new stuff only to convert it to 4th Ed hero. Also, Fuzion had Heroic STR and Superheroic STR...Thia? Take a look at it.;)

[SAVeira]

I have to disagree. They did that with Fuzion, it didn't fly...the influx of new blood did not stem the bleeding from the old guard leaving. There might be other factors in the falure of Champions: New Millennium, but that's what it looked like to me. And I bought the new stuff only to convert it to 4th Ed hero. Also, Fuzion had Heroic STR and Superheroic STR...Thia? Take a look at it.;)
I did the same thing. I almost get banned from the AOL Hero Games section at the time, when I stated have much trouble I was having converting from Fuzion to 4th Edition Hero. I enjoyed the setting but hated Fuzion.

[GloryFox]

You have GOT to be kidding me I just sold HERO as a final system to my game buddies. No more buying GURPS books, No more buying d20 etc.... and you pull this out.

SO is this a big translation from 5th to 6th or a little one?

[ghost-angel]

I, for one, remain undyingly optimistic.

If we go in positively we can make positive change, if we go in negatively we will only hurt the process.

To quote Anthrax

"Turn It Up. Bring The Noise."

[Lucius]

In fact, I was. Emailed Steve my questionnaire and everything. I'd like to think I'm the reason Aid is 10 points per die and Healing works the way it does. (Anyone who wants to aim brickbats my way for that can feel free, now.)


Consider yourself beaned with brickbat. (For the Healing. I eventually decided the Aid change was not so bad.)


Hero is not its rules, but a philosophy: the ability to do anything. There are very few mechanics that, removed, make the game no longer Hero. Now, that having been said, radical change is *not* the same thing as simplification and streamlining. The goal should be for Hero to have the power to do everything it could do in the past, with less time, more intuitiveness, and possibly a lower word count. If that means that some things are removed, renamed, or simplified, then that's fine, as long as it serves the main goal.
Agreed
Can Hero work the same with a couple of stats trimmmed? Yes.

Hero could work without COMeliness, but one stat is not “a couple.”


Do we need four attack powers when one will do? No.

I assume you’re suggesting that Energy Blast, Hand to Hand Attack, Hand to Hand Killing Attack, and Ranged Killing Attack, can be folded into one power with the difference between Ranged and Hand to Hand a kind of “toggle” like the difference between Physical and Energy, and the difference between Normal and Killing being a Limitation, Advantage, Adder, or “Addervantage” like Resistant Defenses is?


How about the number of defenses? Obviously not.

Perhaps not.


Does there need to be three different power frameworks? I don't believe so.

I could possibly see eliminating Elemental Control…you could perhaps make it a Limitation, “Grouped Powers,” that means if any power in the group is Drained, etc. then they all are.

But now we’re getting into specifics that should probably go into the appropriate, specific threads.

Lucius Alexander

And an appropriate specific palindromedary

[TSandman]

Because some people have spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars on books that they don't want to see be made useless.

I don't want to see any more changes made between fifth and sixth than were made between fourth and fifth, or third and fourth.

I can still, with minor tweaks, use materials released for third edition with 5e. If I can't do that with sixth edition, I'm a lot less likely to want to get into it.


Speaking as a newbie that only lately got back on the HERO train, I can say that I've plunked money into those books in the last 3 months:
5er
Sidekick
Equip. Handbook
Hero Bestiary
Pulp Hero
Star Hero
Dark Champion
Fantasy Hero
Valdorian Age
Turakian Age
The Hero Grimoire I
Monsters Minions and Marauders
Enchanted ItemsWhat I really wouldn't like would be to have to either dump em' all or ignore all the new stuff...

And I will now have to tell two of my friends that just bought 5er last month...

I WANT to play Hero. We've searched for a system that we like and for once, the "silent majority" of our own gaming group is vocaly behind something. I just hope it'll not be too drastic (à la D&D 4th/NWoD) to be able to use the majority of the stuff we've just bought.

Edit: Not that I'll be on the street for all the books I've bought already, but I like my stuff to be minimally usefull. Oh, and we've yet to play a single game**, but we're working on it

As an aside, having begun reading the Combat section of 5er (just finished reading EVERY powers with their advantages and limitations), one thing that could bring a breath of fresh air could be less dense terminology/accronyms. I mean, some of those sounds like parts of political speech written in the 80's by Politically-Correct-Living-Entities-Inabiting-The-World-Known-As-Earth-Be-It-Of-The-Male-Or-Female_Gender... but don't do a 180 either, I hate it when terminology is randomly re-generated just to "soud kewl!" (ie: nWoD) to the point where we don't know what is what.

** Yes, I'm a completist, I like to have the whole range of stuff, bad habit of mine, I know ;)

[Bygoneyrs]

For me I hate the idea of going to 6e, especially since I DROPPED D&D 3.5e because they went to 4e. depending of what they do, I might just drop Hero's too. I have spent alot of money of 5e and too, what have to buy NEW UPDATED books because they want to add a few new rules to and get everyone to rebuy their books again. Do they think people are going to fall for that, that is what TSR did with D&D.

Penn

[GloryFox]

For me I hate the idea of going to 6e, especially since I DROPPED D&D 3.5e because they went to 4e. depending of what they do, I might just drop Hero's too. I have spent alot of money of 5e and too, what have to buy NEW UPDATED books because they want to add a few new rules to and get everyone to rebuy their books again. Do they think people are going to fall for that, that is what TSR did with D&D.

QFT,

my sell on the HERO system to my group of gamers, is that the HERO system has basically been unchanged since early 1990, and even then many of the core rules were not changed since 1979. Moving from that system to 5th was easy as pie. Moving to 5th ed Revised a big piece of cake. Moving to 6ed just might cause my game group to give up RPG's overall or return to GURPS out of print editions.

First GURPS goes to a new edition and FAILS, D&D to a new edition with anger and frustration from the most devoted fans. My group is very upset about this and refuses even under threat of death to buy anything from WOTC ever again period. HERO was our hope for a stable game system we can evolve into any genre we wanted and the system works well too.

The more I think about it the more I'm getting mad about it. HERO needed very few to no changes. Seems to me that this is a money ploy at best from bad marketing ideology and not understanding the psychology of your market base. Rather than allowing your player base to slowly take advantage of the disenfranchised from the d20 crowd, and grow your market. You are disenfranchising your smaller player base altogether by having them buy more books they already have just like WoTC. Heck even our hard core Traveler GURPS game was going to change over to HERO Traveler. I guess we can kiss that good by too.


As many of you have read by now in our new CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG forum, Cryptic Studios has bought the Champions intellectual property and will release a massive multiplayer online role-playing game based on it in 2009. That gives us access to a whole new customer base that’s never been exposed to our products before, and we want to publish books (primarily Champions books) that will appeal to them.

That’s awesome I’m happy for you guys. I hope you can make some money through this. Keep in mind that a failed MMO can hurt your business as well, and there are many failed MMO’s on the market currently. Yes I know there are many RPG's that have failed too, but HERO survived because it was unique in its design and has remained mostly unchanged since 1979. Please try and keep the changes to an extreme minimum. If you can do this then people will continue to purchase HERO products another 10 years from now. Residual income from a good "stable" product that works is a good thing.

That means reworking the books to attract their interest, such as by using art from the MMO and organizing the material to suit someone whose background is in MMOs rather than true RPGs (but without, I hasten to add, making the books less useful and appealing to our traditional RPG playing fans and customers). As long as we’re going to have to make changes along those lines, it’s the perfect opportunity to also make changes to the rules engine. (Though again, to make things perfectly clear, I am not changing the HERO System to work like an MMO, Cryptic Studios does not own the HERO System rules, and the CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG does not use the HERO System rules for character creation, task or combat resolution, or anything else.) To put it another way, as long as we’ve got the hood open to change the oil we might as well replace the spark plugs if it looks like they need it.

Those spark plugs still have life. As much as I applaud the news and am quite happy for the HERO system getting publicity, ANet’s Guild Wars 2 comes out next year as well and it’s free. Guess what I’ll be playing online and guess what I’ll be playing with pen and paper once a week? That 15$ a month will be going to game books, hopefully HERO 5th ed R. games books, not to Cryptic Studio.

Seems to me you can keep the 5ed R as is, since you won’t be changing to fit Cryptic’s rendition of Champions. Any changes you make should be minor or not at all. I vote for none at all and focus on creating genre books. Then you can spend the summer marketing to disenfranchised d20 fanatics. Tell them your system is stable (and it currently is BTW.)

[CourtFool]

Yeah...just like that Tolkien guy. Why did he have to go and ruin the Hobbit by coming out with stupid Lord of the Rings stuff. We had hobbits, dwarves and wizards...we didn't need rangers.

[Spudboy]

My thoughts exactly. I'll be done with Hero if this is the case....


Well, the main problem I have is that I'll be waiting another 5 years to get books I don't already own. A big part of why I loved GURPS 3rd (and HERO 5th) is that they had an incredibly diverse array of books on the market.

With the GURPS relaunch, what have they released? Gee, Rules, Martial Arts, Powers, Bio-Tech, High-Tech, Space, Fantasy... blah blah blah. ALL the same stuff already done for 3rd, just facelifted. I want something NEW.

Same thing will happen with HERO - heck, it's even on the 2009 schedule. What books does HERO get after 6th launches? Martial Arts, Sidekick, Champions, and Champions Universe. I suppose Space, Fantasy, and Dark Champions will follow, along with UNTIL and VIPER sourcebooks, Pulp, villain books...

Anybody else see what I'm getting at here? It's like the 'new book' days are over. Time to go back and redo all the stuff we've all got. That's why I bailed on GURPS, and why I'm tentative about HERO.

[ghost-angel]

The Door.... That Way ------->

[memorax300]

Actually I will be very unhappy if they keep everything as is. There are many aspects of the Hero Games rules that can be improved on. Some of the rules in some cases are unessarily complex. Some have duplicate effects. There is no reason for that. Please spare me the "if it's not complicated it's not the Hero System" line of thinking because that is a major copout.

Hero Games needs new fans. Most imo want a simpler system. You can bet that seeing the size of the core book and the sheer amount of rules is not going to get them in for the most part. THe younger crowd unlike the older gamers like myself want to start using a system as soon as the buy it. They also don't want it to be a chore. For many the rules as they are feels like a chore. Which is why they choose other easier systems.

With a new edition they could also improve the quality of the layout and art. Espcially the art which has been lacking as of late imo. I would not mind the boks being in color either.

There comes a time when every game designer for good or bad has to do hs own thing and not be held hostage by the fans. For Steve Long this his time. I understand that some fans will be angry an unhappy about the new edition. Yet also remember that the company needs to make money. Usually the fastest but not not necessarily the smartest is to make a new edition.

As for people not buying 6ED no one can say for sure. That is what 3ED fans said about 3.5. Yet a lage chunck still bought 3.5. It also comes down to the willingness of wanting to convert the 5ED stuff into 6ED stuff. Myself I'm in no mood to do it and will probably get 6ED as I have more important things to do with my time.

[TygerLily]

Steve, is the 3rd reason coming soon? Because post #1 said 3 reasons and I only see 2. :)

[McCoy]

2. To take advantage of the opportunities presented by the release of the CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG.

As many of you have read by now in our new CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG forum, Cryptic Studios has bought the Champions intellectual property and will release a massive multiplayer online roleplaying game based on it in 2009. That gives us access to a whole new customer base that’s never been exposed to our products before, and we want to publish books (primarily Champions books) that will appeal to them. That means reworking the books to attract their interest, such as by using art from the MMO and organizing the material to suit someone whose background is in MMOs rather than true RPGs (but without, I hasten to add, making the books less useful and appealing to our traditional RPG playing fans and customers). As long as we’re going to have to make changes along those lines, it’s the perfect opportunity to also make changes to the rules engine. (Though again, to make things perfectly clear, I am not changing the HERO System to work like an MMO, Cryptic Studios does not own the HERO System rules, and the CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG does not use the HERO System rules for character creation, task or combat resolution, or anything else.) To put it another way, as long as we’ve got the hood open to change the oil we might as well replace the spark plugs if it looks like they need it. ;)
Sign me up for the beta testing.

I bought the First edition, second, 3 and 3.5, the Big Blue Book, the late and entirely unlamented Fuzion, FRED and 5ER. I've owned the HeroMaker, Hero Creator, and Hero Designer software. I'll try the MMORPG, and 6th, but --

== please don't make this another Fuzion fiasco.

[memorax300]

== please don't make this another Fuzion fiasco.

Seconded. And make sure that the next edition come out in 2019. 10 years from 6ED. Otherwise too many editions too often can get the fanbase angry.

[Akiva]

To all of you who are making these knee-jerk threats about quitting HERO if 6E is published, what are you expecting? Are you really expecting Steve to see these threats and say, 'Oh my golly gosh! I certainly didn't mean to offend your delicate sensibilities! Tell you what, let's pretend that none of this silly talk about 6E ever happened. Would you like some milk and cookies now?'

It always tickles me to no end when people think that their personal opinions carry such a great weight with anyone other than themselves especially when they think this kind of negative talk will somehow influence anything or anyone. It's like people who get bad service at Applebee's running around shouting about how they're starting a one-person boycott and never eating there again. Last I checked, Applebee's is doing just fine.

I don't mean to be harsh here but, seriously, if that's your attitude, see ya. I absolutely cannot stand this pervasive sense of self-entitlement that so many people seem to have.

If Steve just gets rid of hexes and inches for meters, that's enough for me to buy 6E. If he gets rid of Superheroes, I'll buy two.

[Akiva]

Yeah, okay, that last post is definitely more harsh and aggressive than I intended it to be. I'm not going to change it because I do believe in what I wrote but I want to addend this response to note that I recognize the poor quality of its attitude.

I have already administered the appropriate number of beatings to myself. Also, to increase my punishment, I'm not allowing myself to read any HERO stuff tonight.

Ouch.

[memorax300]

To all of you who are making these knee-jerk threats about quitting HERO if 6E is published, what are you expecting? Are you really expecting Steve to see these threats and say, 'Oh my golly gosh! I certainly didn't mean to offend your delicate sensibilities! Tell you what, let's pretend that none of this silly talk about 6E ever happened. Would you like some milk and cookies now?'

It always tickles me to no end when people think that their personal opinions carry such a great weight with anyone other than themselves especially when they think this kind of negative talk will somehow influence anything or anyone. It's like people who get bad service at Applebee's running around shouting about how they're starting a one-person boycott and never eating there again. Last I checked, Applebee's is doing just fine.

I don't mean to be harsh here but, seriously, if that's your attitude, see ya. I absolutely cannot stand this pervasive sense of self-entitlement that so many people seem to have.

If Steve just gets rid of hexes and inches for meters, that's enough for me to buy 6E. If he gets rid of Superheroes, I'll buy two.

Pretty much agree and seconded on all points.

[caris]

If he gets rid of Superheroes, I'll buy two.

Than I hope that Steve does get rid of Superheroes, because if the rules changes are so minor that I can still use my 5th Ed book, I have to question the need for a new edition and I won't be buying a copy of the new edition. If he changes the rules so much that I can't use my 5th Ed book, I won't be buying any 6th Ed product. So the extra sale of 6th Ed to you can make up for the non-sale to me.

[Kirby]

To all of you who are making these knee-jerk threats about quitting HERO if 6E is published, what are you expecting? Obviously something different from what you're thinking. Some people have seen Champions go from good to Fuzion. Some people have seen 2E D&D go to 3E, 3.5 and 4E. Some have seen d10 L5R go to d20 or d6 Star Wars go to d20. Most people who have seen this have seen good gaming systems go to worse gaming systems and they don't want the same to happen to d6 HERO.

Still, others don't have a large amount of flexible income. HERO books are not cheap. Not all of us can afford to purchase 6th Ed, which its starting line-up will involve purchasing book titles we already have.

The threat to the game system lies in Steve's line of "Everything is up for consideration" emphasized with "there are no sacred cows." Star Wars Galaxies had millions of subscribers when it was new. Then someone decided for a radical change and now Star Wars Galaxies has maybe one to two hundred thousand subscribers. (Around the world.)

While I'm waiting to see what the end result is, I won't be purchasing any 6th Ed books in which I already have 5th Ed if they're compatible; I don't have that kind of expendable income any more. If it's a completely different monster with the same name (like the "Godzilla" movie Matthew Broderick was in), then this will be a good time for me to exit the RPG world.

[nexus]

To all of you who are making these knee-jerk threats about quitting HERO if 6E is published, what are you expecting? Are you really expecting Steve to see these threats and say, 'Oh my golly gosh! I certainly didn't mean to offend your delicate sensibilities! Tell you what, let's pretend that none of this silly talk about 6E ever happened. Would you like some milk and cookies now?'

It always tickles me to no end when people think that their personal opinions carry such a great weight with anyone other than themselves especially when they think this kind of negative talk will somehow influence anything or anyone. It's like people who get bad service at Applebee's running around shouting about how they're starting a one-person boycott and never eating there again. Last I checked, Applebee's is doing just fine.

I don't mean to be harsh here but, seriously, if that's your attitude, see ya. I absolutely cannot stand this pervasive sense of self-entitlement that so many people seem to have.

If Steve just gets rid of hexes and inches for meters, that's enough for me to buy 6E. If he gets rid of Superheroes, I'll buy two.

So anyone with a negative opinion should just STFU? So I guess you'll stop griping about the presence of superheroes in the Champions, oh excuse me, Hero rules?

I seriously doubt anyone that says they don't like changes and they're employed they'll quit expect Steve Long to keel over and beg them to come back. If enough people say it could, ya know, be an indicator you're moving in the wrong direction when people that have supported your game line for approaching 30 years are thinking of packing it in. No one has to like everything because it's printed in the books. Saying your thinking of packing it in IS an indication of how strongly you feel about the issue not saying your personal opinion is going to sway Steve Long way or the other.

The purpose of the board was to ask for opinions. He's getting them. Yeah, if some of these changes are employed its simply not worth my money to reinvest in all these books over again. I'll stick with what I have or move onto another system, perhaps GURPS. The superior and condescending attitude some members are giving off in this discussion is really starting to get under my skin. I'll see what comes to pass but frankly, I'm not happy with majority of whats been proposed. It's not an expectation of "entitlement" its expectation of useful enjoyable product for the cash I lay down. Hero Games doesn't give the books for free and I don't enjoy them they're not going to get my money. Simple as that. I don't expect the lose of me as a customer to collapse Hero games.

[Enforcer84]

To all of you who are making these knee-jerk threats about quitting HERO if 6E is published, what are you expecting? Are you really expecting Steve to see these threats and say, 'Oh my golly gosh! I certainly didn't mean to offend your delicate sensibilities! Tell you what, let's pretend that none of this silly talk about 6E ever happened. Would you like some milk and cookies now?'

It always tickles me to no end when people think that their personal opinions carry such a great weight with anyone other than themselves especially when they think this kind of negative talk will somehow influence anything or anyone. It's like people who get bad service at Applebee's running around shouting about how they're starting a one-person boycott and never eating there again. Last I checked, Applebee's is doing just fine.

I don't mean to be harsh here but, seriously, if that's your attitude, see ya. I absolutely cannot stand this pervasive sense of self-entitlement that so many people seem to have.

If Steve just gets rid of hexes and inches for meters, that's enough for me to buy 6E. If he gets rid of Superheroes, I'll buy two.
What a funny sheep. You and the Llama should travel the world solving crimes or something. :)


We built this game on Superheroes and we'll still be here when you pansies are all gone :D

[Pattern Ghost]

2. To take advantage of the opportunities presented by the release of the CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG.

As many of you have read by now in our new CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG forum . . .

I can't find the new Champions Online MMORPG forum. Am I just blind? If it's up, can someone provide linkage please?

Oh, and the potential effect this will have on the artwork in the book is nice, IMO.

[Kirby]

If he gets rid of Superheroes, I'll buy two.
Than I hope that Steve does get rid of Superheroes, because if the rules changes are so minor that I can still use my 5th Ed book, I have to question the need for a new edition and I won't be buying a copy of the new edition. If he changes the rules so much that I can't use my 5th Ed book, I won't be buying any 6th Ed product. So the extra sale of 6th Ed to you can make up for the non-sale to me.While I'm thinking Akiva's statement is rhetorical hyperbole, he'll possibly need to buy three, or get a friend to buy two. My sole joy with HERO has been playing the superhero genre. I've been in a FtF Fantasy Hero game that wasn't much fun as well as an online Alien Wars game that was horrible as well.

I have a DRAGON magazine around my place that had a great line. It said (paraphrasing) "If you make a 2nd Edition D&D, make it good enough so you don't need a 3rd Edition." D&D had a great system that went more or less unchanged for decades. Then when 3rd edition hit....

If 6th Edition is compatible with 4th & 5th, there's no harm or foul if it the rules are good enough to last ten or twenty years.

[ghost-angel]

So anyone with a negative opinion should just STFU?

Steve's Rules For This Forum:
7. Sarcasm, cynicism, and snideness are not appropriate. If you can’t participate in this discussion without some optimism, some respect, some diplomacy, or at least the ability to keep your negative personality traits to yourself, you’re not going to be allowed to keep taking part. This needs to be a constructive dialogue, not a destructive one.


So - to be stunningly blunt - yes you should.

Contribute something, a suggestion, and idea, discussion on other suggestions or ideas. Even a "No, I don't like that, I like this" is better than negativity.

But just complaining? Take it somewhere else, please.

[Enforcer84]

They started it!

[gregghelmberger]

To all of you who are making these knee-jerk threats about quitting HERO if 6E is published, what are you expecting? Are you really expecting Steve to see these threats and say, 'Oh my golly gosh! I certainly didn't mean to offend your delicate sensibilities! Tell you what, let's pretend that none of this silly talk about 6E ever happened. Would you like some milk and cookies now?'

It always tickles me to no end when people think that their personal opinions carry such a great weight with anyone other than themselves especially when they think this kind of negative talk will somehow influence anything or anyone. It's like people who get bad service at Applebee's running around shouting about how they're starting a one-person boycott and never eating there again. Last I checked, Applebee's is doing just fine.

I don't mean to be harsh here but, seriously, if that's your attitude, see ya. I absolutely cannot stand this pervasive sense of self-entitlement that so many people seem to have.

If Steve just gets rid of hexes and inches for meters, that's enough for me to buy 6E. If he gets rid of Superheroes, I'll buy two.

I think this is a bit ridiculous. Opinions were solicited and are being given. That's what these threads are for. Nobody expects a single person walking away from the product to change anyone's mind. However, the only power consumers have is to voice their opinions and then vote with their feet. If changes are bad, then you quit the product and find something else to do with your money. A single person doing this has no effect, but thousands of single people doing it has a big effect indeed.

A similar situation happened with me and Marvel Comics. I strongly disliked the direction their editorial staff was taking the line, told their editors as much and stopped buying their products. A Quixotic gesture? Maybe. But that's my power as a consumer. I stopped liking their product and so I stopped buying it and informed them why. Like Applebee's, Marvel Comics is doing just fine. They're just doing it without my money. And that's a perfectly valid response whether you like it or not.

[nexus]

Steve's Rules For This Forum:
7. Sarcasm, cynicism, and snideness are not appropriate.





If you can’t participate in this discussion without some optimism, some respect, some diplomacy, or at least the ability to keep your negative personality traits to yourself, you’re not going to be allowed to keep taking part. This needs to be a constructive dialogue, not a destructive one.


Then you might want to address the post I quoted as well.


Contribute something, a suggestion, and idea, discussion on other suggestions or ideas. Even a "No, I don't like that, I like this" is better than negativity.

But just complaining? Take it somewhere else, please.

Actually, I've contributed several threads and I have been civil. There not a requirement for opinions to be positive and saying "If this is changed, I won't be buying Hero products anymore" is saying "I don't like that, I like this" this being the way it is now. I don't want to see this changed is as valid an opinion as any other. But there has been a great deal of snark and condescension from some posters in discussion and it's largely been ignored unless it comes from one of the "haters". It's a ridiculous double standard and Akiva's post was the straw that broke my back.

[JmOz]

While I agree with Ghost Angel 95% on this, I do think that allowing the powers to be know we are unhappy with the idea has some value to it as well. There is a tendancy for people to feel that change for change's sake is a good thing, or that we can't change something because it has always been that way is a good thing. Neither is, change is neither good nor bad, it is just change. I will not say I am happy with this turn of events, I think the system is fine as it is, except for some fine tuning.

I also need to question the wisdom of changing a system that was able to keep a rabid fan base when the system was all but dead for how many years? Steve and Darren have both said (and i am paraphasing here) it was how the fans hung on that made them decide to revive it, I feel that if you change things to much you may destroy what kept those fans holding on, and really would that be a good idea? I am trying to prevent my negatism from preventing me from contributing, and like I said I do think that Ghost Angel is almost completly right about this, I do think that the negatism some of us feel can be turned to make sure the true essence of hero, that which let me "Survive Cybergames", and survive Fuzion, and the days where we were all but dead, remains. So for those who are negative about this, keep that negatism, let it be the fire in your gut that lets us transform a great game into something better, let us not succumb to the negatism, but let it steel are resolve, work with those who wish to change it, so the radicals who say "Change it Change it, change it" can hear "But this has worked for 25+ years, your idea is trendy, but that does not make it good". And keep and open mind, we all have are issues that we wish could be changed, maybe we can polish up some of the tarnish the game has aquired, and make it look good.

Hey if nothing else we might get rid of the stupid name dark champions for the modern day game...

[ghost-angel]

Then you might want to address the post I quoted as well.

My post was directed at EVERYONE.

you just had the million dollar question.

Question the wisdom? Sure.
Question the reasons? Sure.

But there is a POSITIVE way to express not liking an idea. And then there's just complaining and whining and moaning about it.

If a possible rules change just makes you cringe in terror (I have my personal demons in those Hero Points things) fine. But you can bring forth a Positive Suggestion that's an Alternate Solution.

IMO - just saying "Nope, don't like it." is NOT ENOUGH. Suggest an alternative, create a reason for Steve (and everyone else) to listen to you.

[James Gillen]

I have a DRAGON magazine around my place that had a great line. It said (paraphrasing) "If you make a 2nd Edition D&D, make it good enough so you don't need a 3rd Edition." D&D had a great system that went more or less unchanged for decades. Then when 3rd edition hit....

The problem being that AD&D 2nd was screwed enough that they DID need a 3rd Edition. And that was good, IMO, but it got an even bigger case of rules bloat. At least HERO isn't in that situation.

JG

[nexus]

While I agree with Ghost Angel 95% on this, I do think that allowing the powers to be know we are unhappy with the idea has some value to it as well. There is a tendancy for people to feel that change for change's sake is a good thing, or that we can't change something because it has always been that way is a good thing. Neither is, change is neither good nor bad, it is just change. I will not say I am happy with this turn of events, I think the system is fine as it is, except for some fine tuning.

I also need to question the wisdom of changing a system that was able to keep a rabid fan base when the system was all but dead for how many years? Steve and Darren have both said (and i am paraphasing here) it was how the fans hung on that made them decide to revive it, I feel that if you change things to much you may destroy what kept those fans holding on, and really would that be a good idea? I am trying to prevent my negatism from preventing me from contributing, and like I said I do think that Ghost Angel is almost completly right about this, I do think that the negatism some of us feel can be turned to make sure the true essence of hero, that which let me "Survive Cybergames", and survive Fuzion, and the days where we were all but dead, remains. So for those who are negative about this, keep that negatism, let it be the fire in your gut that lets us transform a great game into something better, let us not succumb to the negatism, but let it steel are resolve, work with those who wish to change it, so the radicals who say "Change it Change it, change it" can hear "But this has worked for 25+ years, your idea is trendy, but that does not make it good". And keep and open mind, we all have are issues that we wish could be changed, maybe we can polish up some of the tarnish the game has aquired, and make it look good.

Hey if nothing else we might get rid of the stupid name dark champions for the modern day game...

I wil wait and see what develops and offer my opinions on it. I didn't think the Steve Long started this forum for people to blow sunshine up his skirt about 6th edition but for an open discussion about the proposal and what the fanbase on this forum feels about them. And one side getting shouted down and insulted for their opinions does not contribute to an open and meaningful discussion. If a proposed change makes a customer feel like dropping the product line. It's something the producers of that product should know about. It might not change their minds, of course, but I feel its important knowledge.

[nexus]

IMO - just saying "Nope, don't like it." is NOT ENOUGH. Suggest an alternative, create a reason for Steve (and everyone else) to listen to you.

Most everyone I've seen this discussion has. Even the ones that say if X is done I won't be buying it have given reasons for their decision. It's not about some sense of "entitlement" or whatever.

[James Gillen]

In fact, I was. Emailed Steve my questionnaire and everything. I'd like to think I'm the reason Aid is 10 points per die and Healing works the way it does. (Anyone who wants to aim brickbats my way for that can feel free, now.)

Gladly. :eg:


Again, we don't have any way of knowing at this point what's going to be kept and what's going to be changed.

Edit: I'd like to think I'm not just being Chicken Little, and trying to dodge pieces of sky. I'm trying to bring up real concerns.

My rationale in commenting:

HERO is fine as it is. It could be better. It could most certainly be better presented and organized, and I think 5ER was a great step in that direction. I still can't stand that yellow paper, but then my copy is PDF. ;)

The 5th Edition, as has been pointed out, was the manuscript Steve submitted to the previous owners and was kept on ice for a certain amount of time while Hero/Cybergames was in limbo. It could have been adapted even then, but when you're just trying to get the company back together, you don't want to mess with much.

And after all this time- it has been a few years- there's an opportunity to think about whether things should be changed. The company has answered "Yes" to that point. So the followup questions are about what should be changed, and why? We're at a point where we should think about the stuff that doesn't work in the core rules and should be dropped (like COM) and stuff that worked better in 4th Edition and needs to be changed back, as one example ditching Regeneration and reverse-engineering it as a subcategory of Healing, only using different mechanics and a more complicated writeup, on the rationale of "simplifying" the Powers list.

Just my opinion, of course. Which is the point. I am quite aware that this is Steve's system and he's going to be making all the decisions. But if he's given us the opportunity for feedback, I at least want to state my opinions and my reasons for them.

JG

[Kirby]

The problem being that AD&D 2nd was screwed enough that they DID need a 3rd Edition.I disagree wholeheartedly; however, this is not the thread for such a discussion.

[Enforcer84]

My post was directed at EVERYONE.

you just had the million dollar question.

Question the wisdom? Sure.
Question the reasons? Sure.

But there is a POSITIVE way to express not liking an idea. And then there's just complaining and whining and moaning about it.

If a possible rules change just makes you cringe in terror (I have my personal demons in those Hero Points things) fine. But you can bring forth a Positive Suggestion that's an Alternate Solution.

IMO - just saying "Nope, don't like it." is NOT ENOUGH. Suggest an alternative, create a reason for Steve (and everyone else) to listen to you.
I'd say if you said, in this particular case "Nope I don't like it" the implied alternative would be to not change the aspect of the game in question.

[GloryFox]

Look even I can see the need to exert some of the aspects from the Ultimate Books for a 6e book, BUT this should not be a need for creating 6e.

It does call for a need for a HERO Ultimate compendium however, and that was covered by the creation of books like the Character creation handbook. Thus prove to me the purchaser that I need 6e when in Steve Longs words.


2. The HERO System as it currently exists is a pretty solid rules system and doesn’t need a lot of significant changes.

Guiding Philosophy #1 notwithstanding, I am no fan of change for change’s sake. I’m not going to start changing things just because I have the opportunity and means to do so. I think the HERO System in its current incarnation is the best roleplaying game ever created — all I want to do is make it even better. I am contemplating some changes that are pretty significant, but for the most part I think the HERO System’s doing pretty damn well as it is.

Sorry Steve I still do not see a NEED to make another game that is already a solid system of rules. If there are aspects of the game in someones opinion that they feel will make it better than it seems more of a house rule issue than a system issue. Otherwise I will agree when you say that the "HERO System in its current incarnation is the best role playing game ever created".

PROVE TO ME THE PURCHASER THAT I NEED 6E and not continue with 5ed Revised? PROVE TO ME that I need to re buy books that are already awesome to begin with. So that I can convince my game community that 6E is the way to go.

This reminds me of when GURPS went 4th ed and my game group bought a single set of 4th ed GURPS books learned the system, played one game. Discussed it seriously, then went back to GURPS 3rd ed and have enjoyed it ever since.

I'm happy you want to discuss this and not just drop a bomb and stop making 5th ed R books. I can now look for 5th ed R sales to pick stuff up cheap as people jump ship.

Seriously Steve your better off perusing the 4th ed D&D fans that are jumping ship right now. Thats how I convinced my group to change over to HERO overall.

[Xotl]

Hero could work without COMeliness, but one stat is not “a couple.”

As you rightly mention later, specific rules arguments should go in the other threads, but in brief, if Steve carries through with his tentative plans to do away with figured characteristics then CON and BODY suddenly make a lot of sense to become one stat (hell, I'd argue you should do that now even if figureds stay the same).

I assume you’re suggesting that Energy Blast, Hand to Hand Attack, Hand to Hand Killing Attack, and Ranged Killing Attack, can be folded into one power with the difference between Ranged and Hand to Hand a kind of “toggle” like the difference between Physical and Energy, and the difference between Normal and Killing being a Limitation, Advantage, Adder, or “Addervantage” like Resistant Defenses is?

I am. But even if I'm wrong, I'd take just two attack powers, or even three. I think this is a good example of an area that could use simplification, and the results don't affect Hero's ability to model anything. The current methodology to this, and several other things I go into elsewhere, are needlessly complex: we gain nothing by having it, and lose clarity and the all-important ease of teaching. Hero must gain new players, and cleanup helps this cause.

I could possibly see eliminating Elemental Control…you could perhaps make it a Limitation, “Grouped Powers,” that means if any power in the group is Drained, etc. then they all are.

As above, I obviously imagine just one solution (a master framework) as the ideal situation, but the main goal is to keep Hero's power. As such, if it means we can "only" drop down to two frameworks, then that's still an improvement and I'm delighted.

Ultimately I want anything that makes sense to go, *without lessening Hero's flexibility*, to go, and anything that can be streamlined/clarified with the same caveat to be done as well. Stick to this guideline and almost no matter what is changed, you still have Hero, only leaner and meaner.

To Enforcer84:
Fuzion gained us simplicity, but cost us in raw modeling power - I couldn't do certain things anymore with it, which is definitely *not* what I want with 6th. Hero with just one or two attack powers and a stat removed and a few oddball Advantages folded into others is still Hero, not Fuzion II: Electric Boogaloo. I'm arguing for cleanup, not wholescale slash-and-burn revision.

[Lucius]

We're at a point where we should think about the stuff that doesn't work in the core rules and should be dropped (like COM) and stuff that worked better in 4th Edition and needs to be changed back, as one example ditching Regeneration and reverse-engineering it as a subcategory of Healing, only using different mechanics and a more complicated writeup, on the rationale of "simplifying" the Powers list.

JG

Unfortunately, Steve Long has already ruled out moving "backwards" to 4th Edition ways of doing things on anything. That may be a mistake (in this case, I certainly think so) but it's also his mistake to make.

Lucius Alexander

Keeping a wary eye on the Palindromedary

[Enforcer84]

As you rightly mention later, specific rules arguments should go in the other threads, but in brief, if Steve carries through with his tentative plans to do away with figured characteristics then CON and BODY suddenly make a lot of sense to become one stat (hell, I'd argue you should do that now even if figureds stay the same).



I am. But even if I'm wrong, I'd take just two attack powers, or even three. I think this is a good example of an area that could use simplification, and the results don't affect Hero's ability to model anything. The current methodology to this, and several other things I go into elsewhere, are needlessly complex: we gain nothing by having it, and lose clarity and the all-important ease of teaching. Hero must gain new players, and cleanup helps this cause.



As above, I obviously imagine just one solution (a master framework) as the ideal situation, but the main goal is to keep Hero's power. As such, if it means we can "only" drop down to two frameworks, then that's still an improvement and I'm delighted.

Ultimately I want anything that makes sense to go, *without lessening Hero's flexibility*, to go, and anything that can be streamlined/clarified with the same caveat to be done as well. Stick to this guideline and almost no matter what is changed, you still have Hero, only leaner and meaner.

To Enforcer84:
Fuzion gained us simplicity, but cost us in raw modeling power - I couldn't do certain things anymore with it, which is definitely *not* what I want with 6th. Hero with just one or two attack powers and a stat removed and a few oddball Advantages folded into others is still Hero, not Fuzion II: Electric Boogaloo. I'm arguing for cleanup, not wholescale slash-and-burn revision.
Well I'll wait until it actually gels more before I discount FII:EB entirely. But otherwise, yeah.

[Silverbullet]

Guys look; I know there is a lot of trepidation right now. I, like a lot of you have been through the Big Blue Book, Fuzion, D&D 2nd Edition, D&D 3/ 3.5, and Gredo firing first (shudder.) Some decisions were great others, well…er…no. I loved getting D&D 3, and I was thrilled when Hero 5th edition finally came out after Fuzion and Cyber Games didn’t pan out.

I don’t care for the way D&D 4 is going but I reserve the right to change my opinion when I see it. I can’t say I’m not a little nervous about Hero 6th but I am also excited. From all that we have seen, I have no reason what so ever to believe that Steve and Darren would steer us wrong. The products they have put out over the last several years have, by and large, been great.

My point is (if there even is one), let’s all calm down. Steve got the Classic Cadillac; he’s going to do some body work and probably some upgrades but I don’t think for a second he’s going to go out and ram it into a tree…

(please forgive any spelling or grammar issues, It’s 3am and my allergies are killing me…):ugly:

[Gadodel]

Steve's Rules For This Forum:
7. Sarcasm, cynicism, and snideness are not appropriate. If you can’t participate in this discussion without some optimism, some respect, some diplomacy, or at least the ability to keep your negative personality traits to yourself, you’re not going to be allowed to keep taking part. This needs to be a constructive dialogue, not a destructive one.


So - to be stunningly blunt - yes you should.

Contribute something, a suggestion, and idea, discussion on other suggestions or ideas. Even a "No, I don't like that, I like this" is better than negativity.

But just complaining? Take it somewhere else, please.

I like this sentiment.

I was on the Wizards Boards waaaaaaay too much when 3.0 was going to 3.5. Wow, now that was a lot of negativity. I found my way here and the level of civility was amazing. As if some Mod had megascale Mind Control and told everyone to be nice. But, of course; no such psionics was at work. Just a bunch of groovy folks talking about their favorite game. I hope that continues.

[ghost-angel]

I wil wait and see what develops and offer my opinions on it. I didn't think the Steve Long started this forum for people to blow sunshine up his skirt about 6th edition but for an open discussion about the proposal and what the fanbase on this forum feels about them. And one side getting shouted down and insulted for their opinions does not contribute to an open and meaningful discussion. If a proposed change makes a customer feel like dropping the product line. It's something the producers of that product should know about. It might not change their minds, of course, but I feel its important knowledge.

He didn't start it to "blow sunshine up his skirt" - he started to discuss RULES.

Complain about 6E all you want - in another forum. There's a thread in the Company Questions Forum that's all about that.

Here - we discuss what we would like to see changed, and unchanged because It Is Coming. Positively.

[McCoy]

To all of you who are making these knee-jerk threats about quitting HERO if 6E is published, what are you expecting? Are you really expecting Steve to see these threats and say, 'Oh my golly gosh! I certainly didn't mean to offend your delicate sensibilities! Tell you what, let's pretend that none of this silly talk about 6E ever happened. Would you like some milk and cookies now?'

It always tickles me to no end when people think that their personal opinions carry such a great weight with anyone other than themselves especially when they think this kind of negative talk will somehow influence anything or anyone. It's like people who get bad service at Applebee's running around shouting about how they're starting a one-person boycott and never eating there again. Last I checked, Applebee's is doing just fine.

I don't mean to be harsh here but, seriously, if that's your attitude, see ya. I absolutely cannot stand this pervasive sense of self-entitlement that so many people seem to have.

If Steve just gets rid of hexes and inches for meters, that's enough for me to buy 6E. If he gets rid of Superheroes, I'll buy two.
You obviously have never owned your own business.

A single disgruntled customer, in and of themselves, is no great loss. But for every person who speaks up, there are some ten to a hundred who silently take their business elsewhere.

Right now the RPG industry, like comic books, is dealing with a shrinking, ageing customer base. Trying to expand that customer base is good business sense. However, offending the existing customer base on the chance of attracting a new customer base is gambling. Could win big. Could lose big.

I, and a lot of people, are taking a "wait and see" attitude. If this change is an improvement, we will continue, buying the new rules and probably two to three books a year. If the new rules are changes for the sake of change and making the existing products not compatatable with the new rules, then a lot of us will pick up any 5th ed stuff we don't have at the close-out sale then go our own way.

By the way, if the reason for this change is "To take advantage of the opportunities presented by the release of the CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG," if we are trying to bring in a new customer base from their exposure to a Superhero game, doesn't this seem like the time to embrace our superhero roots rather than try to distance ourselves from them?

[nexus]

He didn't start it to "blow sunshine up his skirt" - he started to discuss RULES.


And saying that you don't like those rules or don't want some rules changed IS discussing them. People give reasons for the negatives as well as the positives and there's not reason to shut them down because of their opinions aren't "positive".


Complain about 6E all you want - in another forum. There's a thread in the Company Questions Forum that's all about that.

Here - we discuss what we would like to see changed, and unchanged because It Is Coming. Positively.

And how is saying what you don't want changed not following these guidelines? Hero is not a religion. There are no heretics and I haven't seen all these people just "complaining" without merit. I'm frankly, not that impressed with suggested changes and I have said why. It seems a reasonable assumption that if someone says "If this is changed I probably won't buy the 6ed" is a pretty good indicator that they have a problem with that particular change. I haven't seen many posts that say If DOJ does 6ed at all I'm taking my ball and going home.

"I feel the speed chart is an integral part of what makes Hero System Hero and if it's dropped I probably won't purchase 6th edition products" isn't "complaining about 6th ed" Its stating a preference for what should NOT be changed in said edition and the strength of your conviction about it. Dismissing it as self important whining and unmerited sense of entitlement serves not purpose except to dismiss that person's opinion.

And I'll assume you're using a general "you" in your posts. "I" as in me Nexus have been following this forum since the beginning. I was one of the first to post and I've tried back up my opinions with reasons. I do think "I don't want this" is just a valid as "I do".

[Simon]

In an effort to head off the increasing enmity going on here (on both sides), let's keep a few things in mind:

1. Keep it constructive. It is absolutely fine to disagree with an idea or to think that a particular rule or option or new idea is a "bad thing". It is quite another to say things along the line of "I absolutely will not go to a new edition of the rules. Change is teh suxX0rS! I quit!" It is likewise not terribly constructive to say things like "Anyone who disagrees with any change posited is wrong and should be silenced!"

People will disagree. That's fine. Keep it civil and avoid threats. Threatening to leave the system will not help anyone (least of all you).

2. Keep it civil. Discuss the rules. Do not attack each other. When you take the discussion from the topic at hand to your fellow posters, you will find yourself on the infracting end of the moderation team.

3. Keep it on-topic. This is a place to discuss possible changes and enhancements for the 6th edition rules. The 6th edition rules will be happening. Yes, it is change. No, it is not the end of the world. See topics 1 & 2. Understand them. Embrace them. And post on-topic in the given thread of your choice.

[steamteck]

Steve's Rules For This Forum:
7. Sarcasm, cynicism, and snideness are not appropriate. If you can’t participate in this discussion without some optimism, some respect, some diplomacy, or at least the ability to keep your negative personality traits to yourself, you’re not going to be allowed to keep taking part. This needs to be a constructive dialogue, not a destructive one.


So - to be stunningly blunt - yes you should.

Contribute something, a suggestion, and idea, discussion on other suggestions or ideas. Even a "No, I don't like that, I like this" is better than negativity.


But just complaining? Take it somewhere else, please.


Except nexus has presented plenty of suggestions and reasons for maintaining the things he likes. Nexus contribution to threads I'm reading has actually been more than yours which is pretty unusual. Nexus and I particularly in characteristics have come up with well thought out arguments for some of the same issues.

Wow! Thats really not like the you I've seen posting before. Give some of this to the folks who don't just disagree with someone but claimed they posted nothing after they post an argument.

[CourtFool]

What a funny sheep. You and the Llama should travel the world solving crimes or something.

What you got against me Enforcer84? I never suggested pulling supers out of Hero.

[Silbeg]

Because some people have spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars on books that they don't want to see be made useless.

I don't want to see any more changes made between fifth and sixth than were made between fourth and fifth, or third and fourth.

I can still, with minor tweaks, use materials released for third edition with 5e. If I can't do that with sixth edition, I'm a lot less likely to want to get into it.

I would have to agree with all of that. 100%

I am also one of the many that has cut back on the gaming dollar. I will say that I was rather surprised at the announcement (in the sinking feeling in the pit of one's stomach type of surprise), but I do understand why this would be happening.

I also know that in all practicality, if there are major changes to the system, a good portion of all of the tasty books I own will become obsolete. Yes, I can handle the conversion (I still use some of the old 3E and 4E sourcebooks), but in these days of my adulthood, I just don't have the time to spend on it all that I once did.

I do expect that eventually I will be getting the 6E book, but...

[Lord Mhoram]

To further the explanation, for myself, and echoing some of the comments by Chris and Silbeg - And I don't consider this negative, but honest.

I think that a lot of the worry and trepidation by those of us unsure about 6th stems from this fact:

From 1st to 3rd the rules hardly changed. The differences between those editions were as small as the variances you find between groups. 4th was a change, but it was mostly additive - adding in the cool bits from the non Champions games to make the Hero rules. Some changes to frameworks (such as not letting specific powers in an EC), changes to range mods, but in general it didn't have much more impact on the game than what a splatbook might in another game system. 5th came along, and again there wasn't much in the way of change - a few powers got shuffled around, and recosted, ECs were further limited, and again the changes were not much different that a second splatbook.

The writing and presentation changed, but not a huge amount. Characteristics cost the same, frameworks were the same, most powers were the same with added abilities.

From 1st to 5th it was, minor differences aside the same game.

Now 6th is announced with "No sacred cows" and "Rebuilding from the ground up" things that are defining elements to the system are up for discussion - the Speed Chart, Figured Characteristics, cost of Characteristics and others.

To me (and I suspect to many others) that would, in effect be a new game that is based on/inspired by the Hero system (like Gurps or M&M).

I don't want to play a new game. I want to play the same game I have been playing since '85.

By analogy when D&D third came out - it wasn't the same game as previous editions. In my mind it was a better game, but it was a different one. What I am really worried (personally) is that is what will happen to 6th - a different game will come out. Because the state of the game industry, and what most players want is something that would be a different game. DOJ doing what I fear just might be the best business decision - and if it is, I want them to make it. I want to see them succeed, I just expect to be left behind when they do.

Because I want to play the same game, not a new one.


Edit: And even if I don't move to 6th, I figure I will be buying some sourcebooks (Regency Hero, Horror Hero) and use them with my 5th ed game. I do that with D&D books for my FH game, and M&M books for my Champions game. No reason not to with 6th ed books.

[Thia Halmades]

I submit that 99% of the point of saying "No Sacred Cows" is to keep people from feeling inhibited. Have something you've ALWAYS hated? Now's the time to bring it up, because Steve is listening to everything. I would argue this is the closest you'll ever f