Game Stores (Warning: Rant)

[Derek Hiemforth]

WARNING: Rant Alert! ;)

Okay, so I'm calling around, trying to find a LGS (ain't no way I'm adding the "F") that has Fantasy Hero available. I know it's early in the game, but I also know that some folks have gotten it already from stores in California, so it's not impossible.

Store 1: I call and ask them if they have FH. They inform me that it hasn't been released yet. I tell them that it shipped from the printers to distributors on July 18th, that it was being sold at GenCon, and that I know people in California who've bought it at their local game stores already. They tell me that it's not on their distributor's list, so it hasn't been released, and obliquely suggest that I'm either deluded or a liar.

Store 2: I call and ask them if they have FH. They say they don't have it yet, and don't know when they'll get it. They're getting their next shipment tomorrow, but "We never know what we're getting until the shipment arrives." Fascinating way to do business, that.

Store 3: I call and ask them if they have FH. The guy says, in a voice dripping with disdain, "Fantasy... Hero...?" as if he's never heard of such a thing. I reply yes. He says, "I don't know, let me look." About 10 seconds pass. I don't believe he ever moves, because I can tell from the sound over the phone that he doesn't put it down, and it doesn't sound like he's walking with it. Then he says they don't have it. He also doesn't know when they might get it, or even when their next shipment is due.

Store 4: I call and ask them if they have FH. The guy says "Fantasy HeroClix?". *sigh* No. Fantasy Hero, an RPG book published by Hero Games. Oh, he says, our distributor tells us that's "not available." I ask what this means, since it is clearly available to distributors, and presumably can't have sold out yet. He says it means the distributor can't get it. Uh, right.

Store 5: I call and ask them if they have FH. Their response is actually pretty good. They don't have the book, and the clerk doesn't sound like he recognizes it, but he politely offers to go look for it, and doesn't treat me like I'm an idiot for calling. He reports that they don't have it yet, and offers the information (before I need to ask for it) that they'll get their next game shipment in on Thursday.

Store 6: I call and ask them if they have FH. Clerk immediately says no, without looking. I happen to know that this store gets shipments of new games on Mondays, so I ask, did today's shipment come in yet? Yes. Did you check in that to see if Fantasy Hero is in it? No. Could you do that please? He sighs. Okay. Checks, and they don't have it.

Okay, now based on the above, you might think I've been calling some half-assed game stores and comic book shops with one shelf of RPGs. Guess what? You'd be wrong. The above six stores represent the best six gaming stores I know of in the Sacramento Area and South/West Bay Area. Only one of them is primarily a comic shop (although it carries a large selection of games), and that one is Store 5 above, which actually had the best response. These six stores are the ones that have decent selection most of the time and who haven't previously driven me away with rotten customer service.

Maybe I'm just getting to be an old curmudgeon, but I'm pretty tired of game stores that are apparently run by people who either don't care about being customer-friendly and being knowledgeable about their products, or are hiring help who fit that description. Life is too short to keep hassling with these brain-dead clerks who are apparently working at a game store only because they can't handle the complexity of working at a local McDonalds. Not all of them fit that description of course, but enough of them do to make it very frustrating at times.

I'm about *this* close to stopping patronage of all brick-and-mortar game stores, and buying all my game stuff from reputable online retailers. And I'm almost as close to just waiting a month after each product's release, and buying direct from Hero Games. Frankly, only their request that we support retailers (and my own innate impatience) has prevented me from doing that already.

Okay, rant over. I just needed to vent. Thanks for listening. :)

[Monolith]

I know how you feel. I stopped using brick-and-mortar stores about 7 months ago and have not regretted it. I have found the online store I do business with to be friendly, up to date on product (even material I have never heard of), and very responsive when I have a question about an upcoming product.

It is getting to the point where the online stores are actually being run by people who understand that it is a business, whereas the brick-and-mortar stores seem to have employees who are there working after school; most of which have no idea what a rpg is.

I actually considered waiting and buying from DOJ myself (since I am a playtester I already have access to the information) but decided against it. Getting the books into the mainstream marketplace (even the online stores) would seem to be far more valuable to the company in the long run than the extra $10.00 would be to them.

Good luck on your search! I am sure someone will have it any time now.

[Keneton]

Derek:

I am in the mortgage business. I deliver money. Now it's not completly analogous, but in delivering money or making loans I want to make sure that the process is convenient to my customers. I want it to be stress free.

For some reason, besides WOTC products, CCG's and CMG's, game stores do not seem to know what hero is (I should say several). Is this because they just sell more, or becuse they are actively marketed to the ditributors?

Now--I think that this is in some ways a result of the great absence of Hero from the industry for so many years. I am not sure wht the company must do to insure its promotion but I have a few ideas.

1. Make sure that there is a grass roots demand for the product. Tell the game store you want the product and will by not only this book but all Hero books from them that are available.

2. Promotion of games via Legion and Demo's at Game stores.

3. Active solicitation by The Hero Staff of Distributors making sure the books are on order forms for the game companies.

4. Advertising in mags like Polyhedron and or Dragon that circulate to Gamers.

5. If economivcally feasible use Amazon and other Booksellers (Borders, B&N, Boooksamillion etc. . .)

Now in addition the Hero faithful should let Hero know where they buy their books from so that others can know where things are generally available. For example for me in Pittsburgh Hero is available in 5 or 6 stores. The closest to me is Helm's Deep Games. Other include Game Masters and Phantom of the Attic. Possibly this should be a topic like Player Finder only Game Store Finder.

[TechnoViking]

I'm with you Derek
SSDS (same $h*t, different state).

Store 1: Does not get games on Monday (fair enough).
Store 2: Fantasy Hero?!?, never heard of it. But if want to play a fantasy game, get the new D&D 3.5 rules. If you buy all three book, I will give you 5% off (ewww... 5%)

Mike

[MarkusDark]

As my friends run a LGS, I actually took their two major supplier catalogs and looked through them for Fantasy Hero. The first, Diamond, had no Hero game stuff in it (as it is mostly a Comic Distributor), the other, Alliance, had Hero stuff, but they only had the Fantasy Hero Grimoire for sale - not Fantasy Hero itself. These were the most recent catalogs too and they are the only distributors they work with. So it is quite possible that the LGS didn't either know about it or know to order it.

They did tell me that they were going to call Alliance and ask personally for a couple of copies and I am willing to wait as I like to help out my friends.

[Toadmaster]

May be too far for you but I've got two stores in the East Bay I use almost exclusively because they are very responsive to my needs.

The first is

Epic Worlds Castro Valley
3351 Castro Valley Blvd.
Castro Valley, CA 94546
Tel. No. (510) 733-2585

I have had no problems getting special orders, and for HERO they usually order one of everything that comes out, if its something I know I want like FH I'll make an order as soon as DoJ says its shipping from the printer. I have had no hassles from them, once or twice their distributor has told them something is not available but when I tell them I can order it online right now, they go back to their distributor and get it for me. I prefer to use them since it is a small shop run by gamers.

The second is
Endgame, 3344 Lakeshore Ave, Oakland, CA 94610. The phone number at the store is (510) 465 3637.

They have a larger stock on hand and carry HERO, if I want something now I generally go here. I haven't tried ordering anything from them, really haven't needed to since it either isn't out or they have it in stock. Another shop that seems to combine game knowledge with decent buisness sense.

That hasn't always been the case though, it has only been the past 2 years that I have had a decent game shop and I was starting to order most of my games online.

[Al_Beddow]

Both My FLGS are very responsive to the customer. They actually go look and see if somethign is in, they special order for you with no deposit, and they do take a quick look at new products when they come in.

They carry just about every game out there including quite a number of discontinued products.

The only "bad" thing about the oldest store (around like 20 years) is that they really don't want anyone "scheduling" events in their store, prefering for their gaming room to be available for "pickup games". I have been able to make some headway in this area but I can't get the owner to put the events on their whiteboard or in their weekly e-mail newsletter. They will only list events run by the store itself.

[Chris Goodwin]

The Game Chest in Dallas has everything Hero has put out so far. I don't for an instant believe they'll do anyone wrong on Fantasy Hero.

That said, if your LGS is doing you wrong, screw 'em. Warehouse 23 is always happy to take your money, and it's run by people who know what's going on in the industry.

(I said this on another thread, somewhere. If I ran a business, my attitude would be that people want to give me money, and that my job is to make it as easy and painless for them as possible.)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by archer
That said, if your LGS is doing you wrong, screw 'em. Warehouse 23 is always happy to take your money, and it's run by people who know what's going on in the industry.
I have nothing against Warehouse 23 in the least, but it somehow seems counter-productive to buy your HERO System books from a rival game publisher, even if they are a friendly rival publisher. When you buy a book from Steve Jackson's website his company ends up making more profit from the book than DOJ does. In that manner you are making GURPS a stronger product line. It does not seem wise to feed the competition to me.

[Blue]

Why not? Is hero suffering for SJGames prosperity? They're buying a hero games product, and SJ has to buy the original from hero. Hero is still making the same sale they made if they sold it to a little retail store.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Blue
Why not? Is hero suffering for SJGames prosperity?
We do not know if they are or if they are not, do we?

For all we know though, GURPS might be coming out with a new line of superhero material next year. Who would have thought Palladium would have 6 new superhero products on their schedule for Heroes Unlimited for the next year? Steve Jackson Games is still a game publisher so no matter how you slice it they are competition for sales dollars in a tight economy. It just seems foolish for the fans to give the competition "free" money, IMO. To each his own though. I just have no desire to support GURPS Supes while buying my HERO material.

[Dauntless]

I agree about the not so friendly local game stores. That's why I have no qualms about buying from online retailers. When I move to a different area in Florida, hopefully I can find some nice, friendly, and helpful game stores to cater to my needs. That's the nature of the business beast.

That being said, of the 3 game shops in my area, I know one of the owners very well. Basically he runs it himself with little to no help. I've seen how others treat him and how disrespectful gamers can be. In some ways I can see why he is disgruntled and cynical. When I was growing up, my best friend's dad owned a hobby store that carried RC stuff, trains, models, board games, miniatures and RPG's. I even worked there for a summer or two and I got to see how things were run. But I know from first hand experience being both a player and a store employee how bad some gamers can be. The only nice thing was that being the best friend of the son...the dad let me buy things at cost rather than retail (which for an 11 yr old at the time is pretty damn cool).

So, don't be too harsh on game stores. The trouble is that often the hired help is too interested in school, playing their own games or generally just not caring about life at all. If this is the case, let the boss know. If it's the owners that are rude or not very helpful, then don't patronize their business. And better yet, let them know that you've taken your business somewhere else due to their rudeness. OTOH, if you see gamers acting like jerks and scaring other customers away (like comic readers or non RPG'ers) then tell them to keep it down a bit and be a little less loud, obnoxious or rude.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
WARNING: Rant Alert! ;)


Store 2: I call and ask them if they have FH. They say they don't have it yet, and don't know when they'll get it. They're getting their next shipment tomorrow, but "We never know what we're getting until the shipment arrives." Fascinating way to do business, that.


This store sounds like they use diamond for thier RPGS (either that or there is pathetically little communication there)... is this perchance a comic and card shop that does RPGs?. Unless there is a modicom of internet savy you don't know what Diamond is shipping week to week. You place your order 2 months or so in advance, and when they get it, you get a week or two later, or more. Sadly for HERO in general that is what the store I work at has fallen to (new owners, and other than D&D they don't do much with RPGs- at least they let me order and keep the core HERO stuff on the shelf).

One thing to understand about LGS and HERO that hasn't been really mentioned, if the game store does mostly cards and clix, and maybe D&D/WW thier distributors may not carry HERO. At our shop we have 3 primary distribitors, not a one of them carries HERO. We do a little with Alliance and we do comics so we do Diamond- those are our only resources to get HERO in. I try to stay on top of it here, but even then we get stuff like that a week or two later than others (and as none of the other LGS even carry HERO that is more than the fans get elsewhere). All the money at the shop is in clix and magic- so that is where all thier attention is. Getting a book in that might sell two or three copies over a month isn't that high a priority to them. *sigh*

So I know diamond didn't ship it this week, so I am hoping for next myself.

So you can rant a little in the direction of distributors too.



Given I probably get the same rants about me when people call about the latest WW book. We don't even carry them. *sigh*

[keithcurtis]

Hero gamers are the Mac users of the RPG industry. Better system (subjectively of course), but nobody seems to care we exist. Small market share is the problem, suppose. Maybe next year, when Hero has over 30 books out, things will change.

I agree with the CCG statement someone else made. I remember when my FLGS/CS started carying M:tG cards. He had over a thousand of feet of floor space and the bulk of his profit came from a two square foot shelf area.

As for the cruddy level of service, I suppose the profit margin on a brick and mortar RPG store is so small, that unless you are lucky enough to find a retail-skilled gamer/fan clerk, you have to settle for what you can afford.

My sympathies, Derek.

Keith "Epic Worlds in Fresno treats me nice." Curtis

[Bazza]

Originally posted by keithcurtis
Hero gamers are the Mac users of the RPG industry. Better Keith, great line. Are you a fellow Mac user?

Derek, I agree with what has been said here. Let the store owners of your terrible service, if they don't care, tell them this is goodbye -- you're taking that part of their business (or perhaps all of it) elsewhere. If they don't care then, well neither should you.

[Dr Lucky]

Another place you might consider if you are in Sac but willing to go all the way to the Bay to find HERO products is Grapevine Comics on the north side of Stockton. I was in there on Sunday and they didn't have it yet, but they usually have a good amount of HERO stuff, a friendly staff, and they sell HERO stuff at a discount. (They probably sell all RPG stuff at a discount, but all I've ever bought there was HERO stuff and a battlemat, and I don't remember if that was discounted or not.)

[Killer Shrike]

Hey Dr. Lucky.

I picked mine up at Game Empire in San Diego tonight around 8pm. Of the 8 copies they ordered, 5 were left when I got there and 3 were left when I left (I picked up a copy for Wily Q).

All I can say is if your local doesnt carry the product talk to the manager and tell him flat out if they order a copy for you and can get it in at a reasonable pace compared to the competition you'll buy from him and recommend your HERO playing buddies to him, else you'll take yours and thier business elsewhere. A sure thing sale is a foolish thing to pass on for a retail store.....

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Lord Mhoram
This store sounds like they use diamond for thier RPGS (either that or there is pathetically little communication there)... is this perchance a comic and card shop that does RPGs?. Unless there is a modicom of internet savy you don't know what Diamond is shipping week to week. You place your order 2 months or so in advance, and when they get it, you get a week or two later, or more. Sadly for HERO in general that is what the store I work at has fallen to (new owners, and other than D&D they don't do much with RPGs- at least they let me order and keep the core HERO stuff on the shelf).
...
So I know diamond didn't ship it this week, so I am hoping for next myself.

So you can rant a little in the direction of distributors too.


Yep. Diamond blows chunks. Was talking to my Game Store friend last week.

You have to tell the rep, pretty emphatically, that "Yes, the Hero Product is actually out", before they'll actually enter it into the computer and see, "Well, by gosh, it is. How about that? So, you want two, right?"

They say they're going to ship something, and then never do. Even if the Rep assures you that it's in this order, half the time it's wrong. "We ran out, since we didn't expect that much demand, and since you only ordered two, well, you don't get any."

Unfortunately, Alliance is owned by Diamond (or vice versa), so no help there.

In the second case, it may well be a case fof Diamond-itis.

Don't know about any of the other ones, though.

D

[lemming]

Originally posted by keithcurtis
Hero gamers are the Mac users of the RPG industry.
At the latest OSCON, (Open Source Convention), here in Portland, 90% of the laptops were Apples. Hmm, not sure what type of point that's supposed to make. :)

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by Bazza
Keith, great line. Are you a fellow Mac user?

Thanks, and yes. I have answeered more fully on the Mac Poll thread.

Keith "uhhh... I can't think of anything to write here" Curtis

[Dauntless]

---Way off tangent---

Nah, Hero Gamers are Linux freaks :)

Why? Because Hero practically is a game language unto itself. It's complex, but it's flexible and it lets you do what YOU want it to do....not what the company dictates to you what must be done. Hero is not for the faint of heart, but it rewards you very well. And Linux users have to know their systems pretty well to use them (and by some estimates, about 80% of Linux users are also programmers). So it just makes sense that RPG "programmers" are Linux folk.

Sorry, but Macs (the hardware) suck. Mac OSX is a good OS (hey, it's basically Unix), it just runs on horribly expensive hardware that can't keep pace with x86 processors. Apple had better start using the IBM Power4 chips...since the G5 is not what it's cracked up to be (and indeed, Apple has been caught lying by the MPR about its performance claims). And with Adobe dropping support for some of its products to Microsoft....I'm not sure Apples are the way to go.

No offense to the Mac people....stick with the OS, but Jobs really needs to get serious computing horsepower to run that OS for the price you have to pay.

[Lord Mhoram]

For those of you having to deal with stores suffering from Diamonditis, our copies are coming into our store this Wednesday with the comics. If that particular store preordered FH through diamond, it should be in this week.

Just thought I'd give a heads up.

[Teflon Billy]

I've talked to the owners of the Game Habitat in Monterey and they said that the shipment of FH there distributors got was destroyed by the shipping company (something about the box getting crushed by another vehicle in the warehouse).

This could be the reason for some the difficulties in the Bay area. The Game Hab says they'll have their shipment in on Tuesday (crossing fingers)

I think with gaming stores you have to go straight to the manager/owner if you want to get anything done or want to know if anything trully is coming out. It's the same with the Game Habitat; ask one of the two owners you get results, ask the unshaven HSer you get "Um, UNTIL data what? We don't sell software here."

TB -- I killed Doc Holliday

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Teflon Billy
I've talked to the owners of the Game Habitat in Monterey and they said that the shipment of FH there distributors got was destroyed by the shipping company (something about the box getting crushed by another vehicle in the warehouse).FWIW, Steve denies this rumor. See this thread (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6546). Steve's comment is about half way down the first page.

Sounds like a distributor may be fibbing to stores to cover its own caboose. Perish the thought! ;)

[BlackCobra]

Originally posted by Monolith
We do not know if they are or if they are not, do we?

For all we know though, GURPS might be coming out with a new line of superhero material next year. Who would have thought Palladium would have 6 new superhero products on their schedule for Heroes Unlimited for the next year? Steve Jackson Games is still a game publisher so no matter how you slice it they are competition for sales dollars in a tight economy. It just seems foolish for the fans to give the competition "free" money, IMO. To each his own though. I just have no desire to support GURPS Supes while buying my HERO material.

Yeah, but the difference is -- I'll buy the GURPS source books right along with the Hero books. Steve Jackson Games makes Great sourcebooks, with a huge depth of materials, it's just that unless you want to play Superheroes in a world of Reality-Based lethality, the game system is not for you. I loved (LOVED) the IST (International Supers Teams) sourcebook; so much, in fact, that I ran two Champions campaigns set firmly in that world. It was a blast. Other game masters in my group (at the time) liked it so much, they setup ISTs in other campaign cities.

Sure, times are tough, but I'll keep buying Hero stuff and any GURPS sourcebooks that take my fancy (like GURPS India). In fact, others in my group have purchased GURPS books for whatever specific genre they're running, just for the extra information in them. Heck, I think it might be one of the reasons SJ Games is still in business.

While I would guess I'm in a minority, I don't think I'm the only one who thinks like this.

[Enforcer84]

My fLGS (not too freindly) is a comic store run by a fairly busy guy who has people work for him whom he basically pays in comcis and games. Some are nice and knowledgable, some are nice, some are knowledgeble and then there's K and E.
oy vay.

[bubba smith]

Derek:

I am in the mortgage business. I deliver money. Now it's not completly analogous, but in delivering money or making loans I want to make sure that the process is convenient to my customers. I want it to be stress free.

For some reason, besides WOTC products, CCG's and CMG's, game stores do not seem to know what hero is (I should say several). Is this because they just sell more, or becuse they are actively marketed to the ditributors?

Now--I think that this is in some ways a result of the great absence of Hero from the industry for so many years. I am not sure wht the company must do to insure its promotion but I have a few ideas.

1. Make sure that there is a grass roots demand for the product. Tell the game store you want the product and will by not only this book but all Hero books from them that are available.

2. Promotion of games via Legion and Demo's at Game stores.

3. Active solicitation by The Hero Staff of Distributors making sure the books are on order forms for the game companies.

4. Advertising in mags like Polyhedron and or Dragon that circulate to Gamers.

5. If economivcally feasible use Amazon and other Booksellers (Borders, B&N, Boooksamillion etc. . .)

Now in addition the Hero faithful should let Hero know where they buy their books from so that others can know where things are generally available. For example for me in Pittsburgh Hero is available in 5 or 6 stores. The closest to me is Helm's Deep Games. Other include Game Masters and Phantom of the Attic. Possibly this should be a topic like Player Finder only Game Store Finder.
maybe HERO GAMES should use the CHAMPIONS name more thats what most people asociate HERO games with right?

[bubba smith]

i get my HERO books from www.frpgames.com

[archermoo]

Wow. That's an almost 5 year necromancy. :thumbup:

[Toadmaster]

Well since the dead have risen, I have to say in the years since I made my post I have become a 90% online shopper, at least for books and hobby stuff. Initially it was due to moving into the sticks but I've found online stores offer better prices, better selection and better service. I do miss getting to paw through the items first but oh, well I will live with reading reviews.

[copeab]

Well since the dead have risen, I have to say in the years since I made my post I have become a 90% online shopper, at least for books and hobby stuff. Initially it was due to moving into the sticks but I've found online stores offer better prices, better selection and better service. I do miss getting to paw through the items first but oh, well I will live with reading reviews.

I buy about 80% of my RPG stuff from used book stores (brick and mortar), usually for half cover price. I buy about 10% online, but not recently. The rest is from brick and mortar game stores.

[ghost-angel]

I only buy online.

[Thia Halmades]

Well since the dead have risen, I have to say in the years since I made my post I have become a 90% online shopper, at least for books and hobby stuff. Initially it was due to moving into the sticks but I've found online stores offer better prices, better selection and better service. I do miss getting to paw through the items first but oh, well I will live with reading reviews.

I'm with you on this TM. I do all of my shopping online now; the only game stores are too bloody far away and I'm ambivalent towards them anyway. Amazon is my best friend. And for HERO? I buy direct. Why fret over whether it'll be in a store when they'll ship it to me for free?

[Lord Mhoram]

I've moved my shopping online - I either buy direct (Hero) or through Amazon.

[ghost-angel]

What's sad is - it's not that I dislike the stores. I hate the distribution model. And unfortunately the distributors general lack of desire to serve the end customer in any useful informative form will kill the stores simply through complacency and stupidity.

[Old Man]

That's been the complaint of the stores around here. There are only so many distributors and none of them could be bothered to deliver orders in a timely manner, or correctly, or carry things that weren't 'mainstream'. Often they would even bundle things so that the stores were forced to buy crap they didn't want in order to get the stuff that would actually sell.

So, most of the stores here have closed in the past two or three years. Thank the gods for Amazon and the intertubes.

[Egyptoid]

do you meet new gamers much at Amazon ?

[casualplayer]

What's sad is - it's not that I dislike the stores. I hate the distribution model. And unfortunately the distributors general lack of desire to serve the end customer in any useful informative form will kill the stores simply through complacency and stupidity.

There is a particular distributor that is trying to negotiate a virtual monopoly, and that is never good for manufacturer, retailer or customer. The others have been preoccupied with continuing to exist, with varying degrees of success.

I live in the town of Pegasaurus Games and Misty Mountain, a game store large enough to host Magic Prereleases and equipped with Battletech Pods. And there is a third store located downtown by the university, Netherworld Games. I am gaming options spoiled.

[ghost-angel]

do you meet new gamers much at Amazon ?

No. But at least I get the products I want, in a timely manner.

If I want to meet new gamers I go to conventions or network online. Got a problem with that?

[Armitage]

My FLGS is a short drive from work, has extensive inventory, and orders anything they don't have.

Me: Could you order a copy of Pulp Hero for me?
Owner: We're sold out? The computer says we have a couple copies. Let me check...hmmm, who ever sold the last of them must have rung them up wrong. Thanks for letting me know. I should have it for you Thursday.

And he did.

But, as I've mentioned before, my FLGS is owned by a game company (Zombie Planet/Eden Studios), so they care about the product and have a good relationship with the distributors.

[Lord Mhoram]

do you meet new gamers much at Amazon ?

I game with my wife, and I have a steady group.

Even if the group dissolves, I'll always have the wife.

I can find people through the internet, if we need new players.

[Lord Mhoram]

I gave up on local game stores (until I worked at one for a number of years, but I was in charge of the RPG section) when the following happened.

I wanted San Angelo City of Heroes.

On the champions mailing list Marc said it was out. I waited a few weeks for it to hit distributors. I went to the game shop to special order it. They said it (and Gold Rush Games) didn't exist.
I brought them the ISBN.
They took my little special order card, filed it, and I watched them special order it on the computer.
A week later I called to see if it was in. "Nope"
Another week. Same answer.
Third Week same answer.
I went in looking for some other stuff a few days later, and saw a copy on the shelf. I went to the owner, and showed him the book and asked why I wasn't called when it came in as it was a special order.
His answer "You didn't special order that here"
I had him pull out his little special order cards and find my special order.

He then complains that he had to replace his RPG guy (the last one left to somewhere with more money) and the section was a problem.

He never once apologized. He never once tried to make it right. He was the freaking owner of the store. It was his responsiblity to me as the customer to at least apologize... but no - he lies to me, then blames his employee.

That is about the level of service I get from LGSs. I go amazon or direct.

[Lord Mhoram]

There is a particular distributor that is trying to negotiate a virtual monopoly, and that is never good for manufacturer, retailer or customer. .

I hate Alliance.

[Blue]

I still shop at the game store, though my primary one closed shop.

I'd change to online and buy directly from HERO if it weren't a problem getting mail deliveries here signed for.

[bubba smith]

I still shop at the game store, though my primary one closed shop.

I'd change to online and buy directly from HERO if it weren't a problem getting mail deliveries here signed for.
may i suggest buying from frp games i never have to sign for the pckages they send me tell them gene smith sent you
www.frpgames.com

[ghost-angel]

I still shop at the game store, though my primary one closed shop.

I'd change to online and buy directly from HERO if it weren't a problem getting mail deliveries here signed for.

Hero doesn't send packages signature required, or did you mean getting deliveries just dropped off somewhere safe?

[archermoo]

do you meet new gamers much at Amazon ?

As many as I generally have met at other stores.

[bubba smith]

have you tried after hours games on EBAY?i got PULP HERO from them

[archermoo]

have you tried after hours games on EBAY?i got PULP HERO from them

I buy all of my Hero stuff directly from Hero. Which also happens to be my only RPG buying right now. :)

[Old Man]

do you meet new gamers much at Amazon ?

More often than I do at the Nordstrom's that they built on the lot where Last Sanctuary used to be.

[copeab]

do you meet new gamers much at Amazon ?

No, but then I don't need to. I've played almost exclusively online the last five years and find those players in chat rooms on gaming sites. The couple of times I've run one-shots at a store, all the players (but one) were met online (the exception is an old college friend).

[John Desmarais]

If I want to meet new gamers I go to conventions or network online. Got a problem with that?

Only that it doesn't work as well for me as spending time in a local shop.:cry:

Unfortunately, I don't have any local game stores anymore, so I'm also buying most of my game product online (unless I'm up in Virginia visiting, then I go drop some money at the store I used to frequent when I lived there).

[Supreme Serpent]

Only that it doesn't work as well for me as spending time in a local shop.:cry:

Unfortunately, I don't have any local game stores anymore, so I'm also buying most of my game product online (unless I'm up in Virginia visiting, then I go drop some money at the store I used to frequent when I lived there).

Not exactly local to W-S, but there is a recent one open in Greensboro, the Castle.

http://www.universalcastle.com/directions.html

[ghost-angel]

I was thinking about it ....

I haven't met a single group I play with in a gaming shop. Not even a person. Never. Not Once.

Conventions, on the other hand, account for a significant portion of meeting the people I game with.

[archermoo]

I was thinking about it ....

I haven't met a single group I play with in a gaming shop. Not even a person. Never. Not Once.


Goes for me as well.



Conventions, on the other hand, account for a significant portion of meeting the people I game with.

I've met maybe a few more people this way than at gaming shops, but not many. Most of the people I have gamed with in my life have been people who were already my friends that also gamed.

[Maur]

I haven't met anyone at any conventions and aside from my first two game groups (Junior high and High school) I've met all the others through my FLGS.

[JohnTaber]

Boy...this topic could be a new thread...

I met my friends that I game with primarily through the following means...
+ Several at college in the gaming club,
+ One through a convention,
+ One through a letter to Hero,
+ Several through other players, and
+ Several online or through my old BBS, The Checkered Demon.

[teh bunneh]

I met two of my current players through my FLGS. No, make that three, 'cause one of them answered a bulletin board post from my FLGS. :) The others are all college buddies.

[MilkmanDan]

I posted on the Player Finder forum some years back to find a group in Northern VA when I lived there. We got together at somebody's house and started up. They're still going, I moved away (Thia, I believe you're playing with them now, actually). Then a while back I posted in the forum for a group here in the Twin Cities, and met more people to game with. Works fine, no store really needed.

I checked out a nearby game store a while back and asked for Hero products. They had the rules, but said they could order anything I wanted. Then I hit another bigger store in St. Paul. Had lots of stuff, but nothing I wanted. So I came home and ordered it direct from the Hero site and it showed up shortly thereafter. Don't really see a need to hit the FLGS again, just isn't needed in my life.

[archermoo]

I checked out a nearby game store a while back and asked for Hero products. They had the rules, but said they could order anything I wanted. Then I hit another bigger store in St. Paul. Had lots of stuff, but nothing I wanted. So I came home and ordered it direct from the Hero site and it showed up shortly thereafter. Don't really see a need to hit the FLGS again, just isn't needed in my life.

Yeah, if my options are either order it myself or have someone else order it for me, I'll generally go with the order it myself option.

[Steve Long]

Not exactly local to W-S, but there is a recent one open in Greensboro, the Castle.

Wow... that's news to me, and it's not even that far from where I live. Have to swing by and check it out at some point.

[BNakagawa]

I was thinking about it ....

I haven't met a single group I play with in a gaming shop. Not even a person. Never. Not Once.

Conventions, on the other hand, account for a significant portion of meeting the people I game with.

what he said.

[ghost-angel]

Yeah, if my options are either order it myself or have someone else order it for me, I'll generally go with the order it myself option.

This hits a really good point.

A store - especially today with increasing relevance every passing day - has to give me a reason to go out of my way to go to it, and more to the point buy from it.

Used to be if I wanted anything at all it was a LGS or nothing. So, they had a lot of flexibility in carrying what moved fast, and ordering the rest (assuming the distributors let them order it).

Today? Online stores hold more, for longer, and I don't go out of my way. I've placed more than one order from the Hero Store waiting for dinner to cook.

The model changed - the store is no longer where people go. The store has to provide the reason I go there. Like Archermoo said - if I have to order it anyway why have someone else do it, and force a second trip to do what I wanted to get done in one trip.

The LGS has to carry what I want, have it in stock, and not give me any grief. There are several things I think they can do to carry more, without altering shelf space. And of course those lousty worthless scum sucking distributors need to carry more too.

If Amazon can hold a massive amount of items in stock for a long time - why can't Alliance and Diamond? Seriously.

Amazon has most of the PS238 run, yet my local Comic Book Shop can't even order a single title because "the distributor doesn't have it" - it's lame.

[archermoo]

If Amazon can hold a massive amount of items in stock for a long time - why can't Alliance and Diamond? Seriously.

Amazon has most of the PS238 run, yet my local Comic Book Shop can't even order a single title because "the distributor doesn't have it" - it's lame.

"I can't get it from the distributor" generally either means that the person saying it can't be bothered to order it, or that the distributor hasn't ordered more because they are waiting until they have enough orders from retailers to make it seem worth it to them.

[Tim]

Amazon has most of the PS238 run, yet my local Comic Book Shop can't even order a single title because "the distributor doesn't have it" - it's lame.

Weird. I have PS238 on my comics list at my comic store and get it the week it comes out.

[Maur]

Different distributors or lazy store owner...

[BoloOfEarth]

The last real FLGS in my area closed two years ago. (I don't count Rider's Hobby as a real FLGS since their RPG section is mostly ignored by them and dying a slow, painful death.) If one bothered to open within a 15 mile radius, I'd love to check it out, but that's not likely to happen.

The worry I have is the long-term effects that the move away from FLGS's will have upon the RPG market. In the past, I've bought and tried a number of new games after running across them in a store. That's not too likely to happen for me with online shopping.

[BlackSword]

The worry I have is the long-term effects that the move away from FLGS's will have upon the RPG market. In the past, I've bought and tried a number of new games after running across them in a store. That's not too likely to happen for me with online shopping.
It is one thing I like about brick and mortar stores, the ability to browse. I can pick up a book and look through it before buying it. I can see a wide variety of selections which is either less convenient on-line, or not available if I go to a single publisher's web-store. Stores that have been around for a while are nice because they have a lot of back stock to browse through. The only problem I have had with game stores is typically the distributors. At least once I had to ask the store about a book on order, then came back to here and e-mailed Darren about the distributor not filling the order.

Besides product, we have a regular game at the store and have attracted a few new members due to the store. The store also occasionaly hosts game days which allow people to play open box board games, which is a great way to try a game before purchasing it. The store also hosts game auctions where people can sell of books or gaming products they don't want.

I do admit that I live near a fairly large and well run game (and comics) store.

[Supreme Serpent]

Wow... that's news to me, and it's not even that far from where I live. Have to swing by and check it out at some point.

Not too surprised, the current location is even more out of the way than their original one.

They do have HERO product though. :)

[Cygnia]

It is one thing I like about brick and mortar stores, the ability to browse. I can pick up a book and look through it before buying it. I can see a wide variety of selections which is either less convenient on-line, or not available if I go to a single publisher's web-store. Stores that have been around for a while are nice because they have a lot of back stock to browse through. The only problem I have had with game stores is typically the distributors. At least once I had to ask the store about a book on order, then came back to here and e-mailed Darren about the distributor not filling the order.

Besides product, we have a regular game at the store and have attracted a few new members due to the store. The store also occasionaly hosts game days which allow people to play open box board games, which is a great way to try a game before purchasing it. The store also hosts game auctions where people can sell of books or gaming products they don't want.

I do admit that I live near a fairly large and well run game (and comics) store.

Unfortunately, I've been seeing a lot more RPG shops wrapping their merchandise in plastic so you CAN'T browse before buying. Same with comic shops wrapping up their trade paperbacks/graphic novels. :(

[Hugh Neilson]

Unfortunately, I've been seeing a lot more RPG shops wrapping their merchandise in plastic so you CAN'T browse before buying. Same with comic shops wrapping up their trade paperbacks/graphic novels. :(

"Hey kid - dis ain't a liberry - ya wanna read it, ya gots ta buy it!"

There's a line to be drawn between allowing for browsing and encouraging people to just read (and wear & tear) the merchandise rather than buy anything.

To those who like to browse, and think the store should keep the books open for this, how many of you buy the copy that's a bit worse for wear because it's been browsed by a few dozen prospects, and how many take a different copy that's not creased on the spine, a bit dog-eared and/or doesn't lay as flat. Worse, how many go to a different store to buy the product so they can get the one that IS shrink wrapped and hasn't been paged through by dozens of gamers/readers before?

[lemming]

If there's a non-dogeared version, I'll go for that one, but if that's the last one, that's the one I'll get.

[incrdbil]

To those who like to browse, and think the store should keep the books open for this, how many of you buy the copy that's a bit worse for wear because it's been browsed by a few dozen prospects, and how many take a different copy that's not creased on the spine, a bit dog-eared and/or doesn't lay as flat.

maybe I've been lucky. Those who have browsed before me dont seem to damage the books that badly.



Worse, how many go to a different store to buy the product so they can get the one that IS shrink wrapped and hasn't been paged through by dozens of gamers/readers before?

I'm not that uptight to make another long trip to buy the wrapped product even if I did care.

[ghost-angel]

Weird. I have PS238 on my comics list at my comic store and get it the week it comes out.

Not new issues - those come in weekly. The collections of backissues.

[ghost-angel]

"I can't get it from the distributor" generally either means that the person saying it can't be bothered to order it, or that the distributor hasn't ordered more because they are waiting until they have enough orders from retailers to make it seem worth it to them.

And here's the problem - most of the stores around he can't even PLACE the order if the Distributor doesn't have it. So they can't possibly be "waiting for enough orders to come in"

I asked - "Can you order it and tell me when the distributor has it?"
Answer: "It's listed out of print."
Me: "I see."
Amazon didn't have it at the time - a week later they did. Obviously NOT out of print.

No, I'm pretty sure the Distributors are playing the "Guessing how many we can sell" game.

When Thrilling Places first came out someone posted here that their LGS said the distributor had it OOP, someone else said they were told "Not Out Yet/Coming Soon" - it had been out months.

No. I don't believe for a minute that there's something other than distributors being worthless. I don't believe "they're waiting for enough orders" - I think that's BS.

I have 0 trust in the disitribution system. None. And I hope they drag their Brick&Mortar stores down into the dust with them. May they all go out of business.

[BlackSword]

I have 0 trust in the disitribution system. None. And I hope they drag their Brick&Mortar stores down into the dust with them. May they all go out of business.
Why the disdain for brick and mortar stores (and in particular their owners)?

[BoloOfEarth]

I can understand your sentiment, GA, given bad experiences with brick-and-mortar stores in the past. But I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater if you want all LGS to go the way of the dodo.

As I mentioned, Riders is the only hobby store I know of in the area that carries any RPG stuff, and that's as a neglected afterthought. The total lack of selection and disdainful employees means that I won't shop there again.

Up until a few years ago, there was a great comics/gaming store (Underworld) in the area that I frequented and purchased from (including some non-Hero stuff that I had browsed through and thought, "hey, I can modify this to fit my Champions campaign!"). Unfortunately, they went out of business.

Online purchases are great (that's how I've gotten my Hero stuff in the past few years), but I don't see the internet drawing new people into RPGs like a hobby or comics / game store might. Most will instead go for MMOGs (I can't in good faith call them MMORPGs, as IMO there's very little real RP going on there).

[teh bunneh]

I guess I'm lucky in that I have an FLGS that actually emphasizes the "Friendly" part. They, too, are at the mercy of their distributors, but they will at least try to get anything that you request. And they've made a point of branching out and finding multiple distributors from different areas to try to cover all their bases.

They also sell comics, graphic novels, miniatures, painting accessories, CCGs, and toys -- so it's pretty much a one-stop geek shop. :thumbup:

[archermoo]

And here's the problem - most of the stores around he can't even PLACE the order if the Distributor doesn't have it. So they can't possibly be "waiting for enough orders to come in"

I asked - "Can you order it and tell me when the distributor has it?"
Answer: "It's listed out of print."
Me: "I see."
Amazon didn't have it at the time - a week later they did. Obviously NOT out of print.

No, I'm pretty sure the Distributors are playing the "Guessing how many we can sell" game.

When Thrilling Places first came out someone posted here that their LGS said the distributor had it OOP, someone else said they were told "Not Out Yet/Coming Soon" - it had been out months.

No. I don't believe for a minute that there's something other than distributors being worthless. I don't believe "they're waiting for enough orders" - I think that's BS.

I have 0 trust in the disitribution system. None. And I hope they drag their Brick&Mortar stores down into the dust with them. May they all go out of business.

Well, I think some amount of it is that game stores have a tendency to assume that if their distributor doesn't have something, that means that it is out of print. And that if they were told once that it wasn't currently available, they stick it in the corner of their mind that says "out of print", and never check again.

[casualplayer]

As someone who has worked professionally at every level of the gaming industry, let me try to shine a little light on the subject.

The margin of error is wafer-thin at every tier, proportional to the percentage that is made at that level. If you over order by one book at the store level, that eradicates the profits made by selling 2-3. If you over order at the distributor level by one book, that eradicates the profits made by selling 5-6. If you over order by one book at the publisher's level, that can eat the profits of a case. I'm half a decade out so it may be even worse now.

Stuff that just sits there waiting for some gamer's whim is called inventory. It represents money that could (should) be doing something else, takes up space and is taxable.

There are economies of scale you have to account for. Publishers can't take a book back to press when there's only a dozen people requesting it, or even just a few hundred. Distributors have to buy in case quantities and sometimes by the pallet. Retailers have to order enough to justify the shipping expense or reach a level where it is waived.

If the madness of the methods of the other tiers was carried down to the customer, you would have to purchase a minimum amount or be surcharged, have to pay a varying price depending on quantities ordered and have to pay taxes on preorders that you made but haven't picked up yet. Any takers?

[ghost-angel]

I really don't want the stores themselves to go out of business.

But they are the end of a chain that ultimately supports a distribution system that actively works against the customer.

As Archermoo pointed out - far too many of them assume Out Of Print when they see they can't order something. That's a HUGE disservice to the customer. Massive breach of trust.

When the LGS starts to take a more active role in their own responsibility then I'll reconsider.

Obviously a place like Amazon has a much wider base to spread the profitability out over, if the Comic book section of their warehouse isn't making as much money the Music section is probably making up for it.

But there's something in that model I think the B&M can learn from. And it's the idea that Storage Closets are cheaper than Display Cases. I think we've long reached past the point where everything needs to get facing - create an Inventory Search for customers to use. Maybe not everything is in the front, keep some in the back. I know a few music stores that kind of adopt this model - they use the underside of their normal display racks for more storage - it's not faced, or really easy to get to but it's THERE. and they have computers you can use to search. Every once in a while they rotate what's under with what's over.

Face it - how business was done in 1985 is dead or dying. Time to adapt style and attitude.

[Old Man]

But there's something in that model I think the B&M can learn from. And it's the idea that Storage Closets are cheaper than Display Cases. I think we've long reached past the point where everything needs to get facing - create an Inventory Search for customers to use. Maybe not everything is in the front, keep some in the back. I know a few music stores that kind of adopt this model - they use the underside of their normal display racks for more storage - it's not faced, or really easy to get to but it's THERE. and they have computers you can use to search. Every once in a while they rotate what's under with what's over.

Many of the game stores I've seen adopted this model. Only without the computerized search. It can be fun digging around in the boxes under the racks to see if you could find something ancient and valuable. At least it was, back when I had free time.

[archermoo]

Distributors have to buy in case quantities and sometimes by the pallet.

That was not universally the case when I worked at a distributor. Or at least not true for all products.

[ghost-angel]

Many of the game stores I've seen adopted this model. Only without the computerized search. It can be fun digging around in the boxes under the racks to see if you could find something ancient and valuable. At least it was, back when I had free time.

Yeah - but I'm not talking digging and I'm not talking older products.

I'm talking about new products, and a useful search capability. I'm talking about a new model. I'm talking about modernizing.


"One must change or die"

[steamteck]

Yeah - but I'm not talking digging and I'm not talking older products.

I'm talking about new products, and a useful search capability. I'm talking about a new model. I'm talking about modernizing.


"One must change or die"

Maybe or Maybe not. Besides supporting the business just for the people's sake, the only reason I'd go to a physical store is to browse and see something interesting I hadn't heard of. Your model denys me that option so I probably won't bother. I can computer search through a much larger selection at home.

[casualplayer]

That was not universally the case when I worked at a distributor. Or at least not true for all products.

Are you talking about stuff bought through sub-distributors, like Wizard's Attic? I was trying to avoid mentioning them because it always makes Hopcroft go ballistic. :D Yeah, their whole existance was predicated on shipping fulfillment for companies too small to hire a Tina and products that would languish and die if purchasing was mandated in case quantities.

[ghost-angel]

Maybe or Maybe not. Besides supporting the business just for the people's sake, the only reason I'd go to a physical store is to browse and see something interesting I hadn't heard of. Your model denys me that option so I probably won't bother. I can computer search through a much larger selection at home.

That depends entirely on how that search is set up.

Set up a cover-browse kind of thing (if you've seen iTunes' Cover Flow think of something similar) and you can always ask to see an item that isn't faced on a shelf.

[archermoo]

Are you talking about stuff bought through sub-distributors, like Wizard's Attic? I was trying to avoid mentioning them because it always makes Hopcroft go ballistic. :D Yeah, their whole existance was predicated on shipping fulfillment for companies too small to hire a Tina and products that would languish and die if purchasing was mandated in case quantities.

Nope, I'm talking about when I worked for Diamond back in the early 90s. I'll grant that most things were ordered in case or more quantities. But not everything was.

[Sir Ofeelya]

Mate, I ordered hero 5th ed from my local wargame/games store here in Wellington New Zealand in Jan 2006. It arrived about three months ago. I had forgotten I had ordered it.

[Supreme Serpent]

Yeah - but I'm not talking digging and I'm not talking older products.

I'm talking about new products, and a useful search capability. I'm talking about a new model. I'm talking about modernizing.


"One must change or die"


Maybe or Maybe not. Besides supporting the business just for the people's sake, the only reason I'd go to a physical store is to browse and see something interesting I hadn't heard of. Your model denys me that option so I probably won't bother. I can computer search through a much larger selection at home.


That depends entirely on how that search is set up.

Set up a cover-browse kind of thing (if you've seen iTunes' Cover Flow think of something similar) and you can always ask to see an item that isn't faced on a shelf.

At the very least, you don't have to have all copies of X product on the shelves at any given time - keep one or two out at a time, restock from the back closet as things sell.

As more stores get web pages and ordering functions, it would be cool to see them incorporate that in-store and have a way to tie in to distributors - automate a lot of ordering. "You want X product?" *Click* "OK added to our order" right there, right then. "I'll add a note with your name and email, when we scan the item in from the shipping invoice an automated email will be sent to you telling you it's arrived - we'll have it here for you behind the counter. Let's see...based on the confirmation from the distributor, it should be in the shipment we get on the 25th."

Of course it would be nice for lots of stores, not just game ones to get to that point!

[Maur]

That, of course, requires that the distributors actually inform the stores what is actually in the shipment that is on its way to them. It also adds some other costs to the store such as the need for a line to do dialup Net access (at the very least) or a business connection from an ISP (DSL or cable or some form of wireless). Of course that level of automation might also help a store keeper be more organized :)

[ghost-angel]

I wouldn't even go that far.

The store can create their own inventory to browse from.
They can integrate the catalog the distributor gives them.

Do you really even need to put things like the DnD PHB on the shelf? Use that space for something else. Put those in a box behind the counter/in the back.

I'm talking JUST in store for most things.

[Tim]

Do you really even need to put things like the DnD PHB on the shelf? Use that space for something else. Put those in a box behind the counter/in the back.


You need to put at least a few out on the shelf. But not every single one, And not all facing out.

[Hugh Neilson]

You need to put at least a few out on the shelf. But not every single one, And not all facing out.

Backroom storage space isn't free either.

[BlackSword]

Backroom storage space isn't free either.
And as casualgamer pointed out, inventory is like saving money by putting it under your mattress. The money could be put to better use in a bank where it gets interest, paying down debt, paying for employees or rent, etc. The reason Amazon can get away with inventory is because they have a customer base of 10s (or 100s) of millions, which means an error one way or another leads to extra inventory that is covered by other sales, or too short you irritate one customer from millions of customers. In the game store, a customer who deems the store 'unworthy' can be one of a thousand of their customer base.

[ghost-angel]

Backroom storage space isn't free either.

no, but it's cheaper than shelf space. Inventory space can be stacked in a "shopper unfriendly" manner.

Yes - Amazon has it easier. I pointed that out in my FIRST post on this.

...


So yeah - keep coming up with reasons NOT to change the model and let the stores die the miserable rotten deaths they currently deserve. Because 90% of them certainly don't actually fulfill consumer desires.

[Egyptoid]

{series of questions}

insert witty point about "me too-ing" and Thread Necromancy Here.