GM Advice in 6e

[buzz]

I'd really love to see some concrete GM advice in 6e. The skimpy section in 5ER contains very little useful advice, IMO. The general advice is dated, and specific advice about how to use the monster that is HERO is pretty much non-existent.

For general advice, I would refer Steve to [url=http://www.faterpg.com/dl/sotc-srd.html]Spirit of the Century[/quote]. It has, hands-down, some of the best general GM'ing advice ever written, all of which is totally appropriate for HERO.

For specific advice, I'd like to see 6e take a page from recent small press games and give explicit direction as to how to make use of the system. Basically: "Okay, you've read all the rules. here's what you actually do with them to get a game going."

[Enforcer84]

'Course, that defeats the whole "toolkit" idea. And adds text. ;)

[The Monster]

the monster that is HERO

...would that be me? :D

[Diamond Spear]

I'd really love to see some concrete GM advice in 6e. The skimpy section in 5ER contains very little useful advice, IMO. The general advice is dated, and specific advice about how to use the monster that is HERO is pretty much non-existent.

For general advice, I would refer Steve to [url=http://www.faterpg.com/dl/sotc-srd.html]Spirit of the Century. It has, hands-down, some of the best general GM'ing advice ever written, all of which is totally appropriate for HERO.

For specific advice, I'd like to see 6e take a page from recent small press games and give explicit direction as to how to make use of the system. Basically: "Okay, you've read all the rules. here's what you actually do with them to get a game going."

As has been stated before, GM advice is reserved for teh genre books precisely because HERO can be used to simulate just about anything. Given that the main book is genre neutral it doesn't lend itself to haveing a large GM advice section.

[buzz]

'Course, that defeats the whole "toolkit" idea. And adds text. ;)
I don't see how useful GM guidance is antithetical to HERO being a toolkit. The hypothetical Champs MMORPG player draw to HERO for the first time is going to be totally lost if you assume they just know what they ought to be doing with the system. IMO.

[buzz]

As has been stated before, GM advice is reserved for teh genre books precisely because HERO can be used to simulate just about anything. Given that the main book is genre neutral it doesn't lend itself to haveing a large GM advice section.
It doesn't have to be large. I just want something more useful than "Ignore rules that you don't like" and "Don't take any lip from rules lawyers."

[Akiva]

I fully agree with buzz here. I don't think the core rulebook needs to have a 'What Is Roleplaying?' section anymore than it needs a section on how to handle standard GM issues such as too much joking at the table or whatever but, as a newcomer to HERO, I often found myself saying, 'Well, this is all very neat but... uh, how does one really use it?' HERO is great at telling you what you can do but it offers no advice on how to do things efficiently.

With most other games, learning the rules is enough to play but using HERO is actually a skill that takes some time to cultivate. I'd like to see this addressed in the core rulebook.

[Vondy]

Hero is a system people generally learn from emulation and oral tradition. Its a game people are introduced to and taught. There are people who pick up the book and go from scratch, but they tend to be the minority (as a strong impression on my part). And even then, once they have been introduced to it, they start trying to figure out the rules from the book and, quite frankly, hero has a massive learning curve. It really does need examples and advice for adjudicating and applying the mechanics in the rulebook. Sure, there are savants who just "get it" (and a lot of them become insta-gamemasters), but for a lot of people its a bear. I think having the first part of the book be a hard-edges mechanics section, and then having sections with examples and advice that follow needs to happen. The text in the current version can be cleaned up and tightened, but chopping what amount to essential sections of the book isn't going to be good for bringing people to the system. I do think it can stand a serious reorganization, but the information still needs to be there. Usually the people who think it doesn't are the ones whove been playing the game for a decade of more. Well, of course they (we) don't need it... but what about the poor bastard who hasn't ever experienced hero before?

[buzz]

Something as simple as having the running examples throughout the book essentially tell a "story" of a group of players getting to know the game would be very useful, IMO.

[The Monster]

Hero is a system people generally learn from emulation and oral tradition. Its a game people are introduced to and taught. There are people who pick up the book and go from scratch, but they tend to be the minority (as a strong impression on my part). And even then, once they have been introduced to it, they start trying to figure out the rules from the book and, quite frankly, hero has a massive learning curve. It really does need examples and advice for adjudicating and applying the mechanics in the rulebook. Sure, there are savants who just "get it" (and a lot of them become insta-gamemasters), but for a lot of people its a bear. I think having the first part of the book be a hard-edges mechanics section, and then having sections with examples and advice that follow needs to happen. The text in the current version can be cleaned up and tightened, but chopping what amount to essential sections of the book isn't going to be good for bringing people to the system. I do think it can stand a serious reorganization, but the information still needs to be there. Usually the people who think it doesn't are the ones whove been playing the game for a decade of more. Well, of course they (we) don't need it... but what about the poor bastard who hasn't ever experienced hero before?

I agree with this. Advice and/or general insights on how the system is supposed to work and how to apply it would be worthwhile. (To my mind, that usually seems to be labeled "Designer's Notes" rather than "GM Advice" but I'm not sure where I get that from). There should certainly be examples of a few typical heroes/villains, powers, devices, etc. - but I assume a lot of that would be in the mechanics text, like it is now, both in the body and in sidebars.

[buzz]

A step-by-step "So, you want to start a HERO campaign..." section would be awesome.

[Sean Waters]

I wrote a rpg once, when I was bored. Here's the first page. I think it says it all.

PowerPlay: The Introduction


Welcome to a new kind of role playing game. One that I wrote.

A few words on Pronouns

Throughout this book I will be mixing my pronouns in an apparently random manner. In fact it is done extremely carefully in order to confuse and annoy you. No prejudice is intended. Except against the reader which, I hope, goes without saying.


What is ‘role playing’ then? Eh?


You know perfectly well what it is or you would not have bought the book. If you really don’t know pick up some other ‘role playing’ book and read the first few pages. Me, I’ve got better things to do. To be honest you look like you live in a fantasy world anyway. It is reality you don’t understand.

What is ‘reality’?


You are either asking because you are deeply sad or an existentialist philosopher who is in the wrong section of the book store or you are deliberately trying to hack me off. Whichever, there is a punch in the mouth in the post.

How to use this book


You can read can’t you? You can read? OK read it. It is a book. That is what you do with books. Good grief do I have to explain everything?

Are you still here?


Go away for goodness sake. Read the book, play the game, get a life, whatever. Stop bugging me.

Credits


Me.

Me, me, me, me, me.

Me.

Go away


Go away. Now.

So, I'd cut down on the whole 'What is a rpg' thing, but some specific advice as to how to USE Hero (as opposed to how to roleplay, run games, be a most excellent player, etc) would be very useful.

Something I've always felt could have usefully been included is a section on 'Hero Philosophy': what were the motivating factors in making particular decisions in Hero, what a different approach may yield and why certain decisions were made - it would lay bare some of the bones and make manipulation of the system at a far more fundamental level more practical.

[dsatow]

Personally, I don't think this is a good method.

1) The size of the 5E and 5ER is so daunting, that new players are loath to pickup the book. HERO's reputation (14-) as a "complex do anything" game system also works to it's disadvantage (15 points).

2) While more experienced players and GMs will want rules clarafications, the vast majority who would buy 5E and 5ER do not need samples and examples.

3) I think lately more people pickup the smaller game titles like Battlestar Galactica, Buffy/Angel game systems, etc. because they appear to be small quick to learn games rather than they are better or worse than hero.

4) A lot of what the supplements are today, would have been major articles in Adventurer's Club but collected and organized. IMHO, I think this has led to the demise of the company gaming magazine like Dragon and Adventurer's Club.

My solution to the problem will sound kind of strange especially to the HERO guys, so please continue reading to the end.

A) Assume that people who buy the core 6th Ed rule book, have already mastered HERO basics. They understand at or on a level equivalent to the target audience of the supplements today. It should explain mechanics, give samples, and answer questions but it should not explain role playing, GM-ing, or how to setup the campaign.
2) Continue to do the supplements but emphasize that this is a core rule supplement. Supplements should explain in greater depth the area of the rules, give samples, help expand the area.
3) Create a genre books which include the basic rules to play the game like the old Danger International and Justice Inc. Don't try to make a major book this way. Leave that to a genre supplement. Only include the basics.

Here's the kicker though, in the genre and genre supplement books, include a coupon to allow the core rule book to be bought at the discount when purchased at the same time. This will allow the new GM/players to get interested in the game system first before dousing them in all the rules and possible variations.

Example: Fantasy Hero Scenario
a) A new player enters the Game Store and spots the 6e Fantasy Hero (13- Per Roll). She opens the book and is shown how to create a basic character (buying stats, skills). It includes a group of basic manuevers for fighters and a few basic spells for magicians/clerics. She isn't certain about buying the big thick 6e book, but the 6e Fantasy Hero book is about her speed.
b) The players and GM get hooked on 6e. They begin buying the supplements. Like a genre supplement for fantasy hero spells or fighter martial manuevers and weapons, maybe even a campaign setting document. Having been hooked and noting the discount, she buys the core rule book.
c) She will soon want to run a completely divergent Fantasy Hero campaign. Maybe one with spell powered starships or pretty magical girls. She can use the core rulebook to modify the game and she may buy core rule supplements for vehicles, new worlds, etc.

By creating a simplified system for a target genre, you increase more players to HERO. Advancements after seeing the power of the HERO system will get people to buy the Core rules.

The big question comes from the Comic book segment. This is because comics cover a broad range of powers, settings, abilities. For Champions, keep it simple. Include the basics like in Sidekick, include basic vehicles(cop car, sports car, van, motorcycle, helicopter, private plane), basic weapons (a simple pistol, rifle, machine gun, shotgun, blaster), and NPCs the would meet (a cop, a scientist, a reporter, a thug, a agent or two). Something like this would only be about 25%-50% larger than Sidekick is now.

[Sean Waters]

That's how Hero genre books used to be presented: rules+genre.

The company moved away from that because ther4e was a a lot of redundancy in buying the genre books.

I think Hero is flexible enough to create 'Hero Lite' (hateful term, but you know what I mean) books that include some genre stuff and enough rules to play it (let's face it, you could get the Hero system rules, in basic form, in about 4 pages). The biggest bit of any of the Hero books has always been character creation. It might really pay dividends to have alternative character generation rules. Let's kick back here and look at other systems: level based character classes, character archetypes, improved templates. You don't have to let people create ANYTHING thay want to give satisfaction, and Hero can handle it, whatever 'it' might be.

[Pattern Ghost]

Adding a running sidebar on using the rules to create and run a game would be a good thing, provided the rules were ordered logically in regards to that goal. Or make it an appendix. I'd actually favor two sets of examples, one Heroic and one Superheroic, to highlight the choices typically made for each.

This could also be boiled down to a split page at the end of each section, with the left side being one genre and the right side being the other. (Or a two page spread.)

After all, how many times have people who just picked up the game without any system mentor come to the forums and been helped by just such blow by blow examples? I know I've personally done a few for character creation and combat, and folks seem to like them. "Seeing" the system in action can really help clarify things for new players, and I think attracting new players to the system is certainly a good goal.

[buzz]

I have four words for ya: Aaron Allston's Strike Force.

[Enforcer84]

I don't see how useful GM guidance is antithetical to HERO being a toolkit. The hypothetical Champs MMORPG player draw to HERO for the first time is going to be totally lost if you assume they just know what they ought to be doing with the system. IMO.
No, telling people how to use the rules and what's right and not. That defeats the Toolkit idea.

[Enforcer84]

I have four words for ya: Aaron Allston's Strike Force.
it was a great book and he had good ideas, but the Genre rules were like two pages and they've been in various HERO products since. Is there more you think we need to put in the book? Perhaps in the various Genre Books but GM tips are always in there. I don't feel the need to try cover everything in the main book

[fredrik_nilsson]

I fully agree with Buzz in that the new edition needs a better GM section than the current one.

The current edition – especially when you include the material in the Genre by Genre section – covers the rules part well enough when it comes to creating a campaign from scratch, but it doesn’t cover the common storytelling techniques that deep. The book should mention stuff like foreshadowing, theme and mood.

The vast majority of the people on this board have played for more than ten years. From what I’ve read the 6th edition is supposed to aim for a larger public, and my guess is that even stuff like storytelling needs to be considered.

[buzz]

it was a great book and he had good ideas, but the Genre rules were like two pages and they've been in various HERO products since. Is there more you think we need to put in the book? Perhaps in the various Genre Books but GM tips are always in there. I don't feel the need to try cover everything in the main book
I'm talking amore about the fact that a good chunk of the book is basically Allston's actual play notes, i.e., him talking about what his group did to build the campaign. I'm not talking about genre advice.

[Chris Goodwin]

As has been stated before, GM advice is reserved for teh genre books precisely because HERO can be used to simulate just about anything. Given that the main book is genre neutral it doesn't lend itself to haveing a large GM advice section.

That means, then, that you need the genre books in order to be able to GM. And that, to me, seems completely opposed to what Hero is about.

[Thia Halmades]

That means, then, that you need the genre books in order to be able to GM. And that, to me, seems completely opposed to what Hero is about.

I don't know. I see both sides; I think Chad is being extremist here suggesting that giving people advice defeats the purpose of a toolkit. There's plenty of generic advice as to how to run a game (set up an outline, plan ahead, etc. etc.) so first time people can get into it more easily, without giving advice on "how to run Pulp" and so on. I think that the "Combat & Adventuring" text should include some of this material, and doing so won't kill the book.

[Enforcer84]

I don't know. I see both sides; I think Chad is being extremist here suggesting that giving people advice defeats the purpose of a toolkit. There's plenty of generic advice as to how to run a game (set up an outline, plan ahead, etc. etc.) so first time people can get into it more easily, without giving advice on "how to run Pulp" and so on. I think that the "Combat & Adventuring" text should include some of this material, and doing so won't kill the book.
I was being a bit obtuse there wasn't I? I'm not saying there's no place for it in the toolkit. I'm saying the toolkit is going to be awfully full and adding genre by genre "GM tips" might cause the welds to break.

[Rockhoof]

I, for one would like to see some really crunchy balance advice. keep advice for how to simulate various genre out of the toolkit, sure. But, put in advice on how to generate appropriate encounters for /parties/ of people. Very few games are 1-on-1, player w/ GM. What are appropriate challenges for 5 players of 250+50 pts? What's a good challenge if you want to give them a brawl scenario with lots of badguys, what about if you want them to go up against 1 BBEG?

The toolkit is all about keeping characters balanced w/ /each other/. I want to see more of how to keep them balanced against the people they'll be fighting against.

[SSgt Baloo]

<SNIP!>... 3) I think lately more people pickup the smaller game titles like Battlestar Galactica, Buffy/Angel game systems, etc. because they appear to be small quick to learn games rather than they are better or worse than hero.

4) A lot of what the supplements are today, would have been major articles in Adventurer's Club but collected and organized. IMHO, I think this has led to the demise of the company gaming magazine like Dragon and Adventurer's Club.

My solution to the problem will sound kind of strange especially to the HERO guys, so please continue reading to the end.

A) Assume that people who buy the core 6th Ed rule book, have already mastered HERO basics. They understand at or on a level equivalent to the target audience of the supplements today. It should explain mechanics, give samples, and answer questions but it should not explain role playing, GM-ing, or how to setup the campaign.
2) Continue to do the supplements but emphasize that this is a core rule supplement. Supplements should explain in greater depth the area of the rules, give samples, help expand the area.
3) Create a genre books which include the basic rules to play the game like the old Danger International and Justice Inc. Don't try to make a major book this way. Leave that to a genre supplement. Only include the basics.

Here's the kicker though, in the genre and genre supplement books, include a coupon to allow the core rule book to be bought at the discount when purchased at the same time. This will allow the new GM/players to get interested in the game system first before dousing them in all the rules and possible variations.

Emphasis added.

I'd really like to see Hero Rules Lite® included in the Genre books. Noobs would be able to do what they expected to do from the start. Instead, they buy the genre they want to run and discover something they didn't expect. "What the "!@#$%?!? You mean I have to buy another book???" and now this newcomer feels like Hero tricked him into an unforseen $50 purchase.

I also like the idea of a discount coupon for the Core Book, but perhaps it should be usable at any time in the future. Alternatively, the coupon might be serially numbered and allow the buyer to request a coupon from HERO's online website for the core rules.

Anecdote: When I first became aware of 5E Hero, I went to the store and saw Sidekick, but no core rulesbook. I didn't need a book about how to do sidekicks. I didn't buy it because I wanted the rules. It was only after I started hanging around this BBS that I finally learned that Sidekick was Hero Rules Lite®. Knowing what I know now, Sidekick was something I would've wanted, but the title threw me off the scent.

[Steve Long]

OK, folx, to the extent this issue is pertinent to the 6E forums at all, I think I've heard enough. Thank you for your input. ;)