A 6e challenge for Steve

[buzz]

I'm betting a solid revision of the HERO core rules can fit in 320 pages or less. Take me up on it and I'll buy you a cookie! Like, one of those really big ones.

[Enforcer84]

I'll triple his prize if you can have it done by Tuesday.

[Kdansky]

I don't think so :) I expect a 500 page volume, and that's ok.

[SAVeira]

I'm betting a solid revision of the HERO core rules can fit in 320 pages or less. Take me up on it and I'll buy you a cookie! Like, one of those really big ones.
I will on the other hand offer Steve cold hard cash for core rules over 320 pages. There is going to be a basic version already.

[Supreme Serpent]

I'm betting a solid revision of the HERO core rules can fit in 320 pages or less. Take me up on it and I'll buy you a cookie! Like, one of those really big ones.

Easy peasy. Heck, 5ER can fit on 100 pages. Teeny tiny font size, sure, but can't have everything...

[buzz]

I don't think so :) I expect a 500 page volume, and that's ok.
It's looking like it's going to be two 500 page volumes, and that honestly concerns me.

[Vondy]

I would rather see him parse out the information for faster reference. The rules can be condensed into 300 pages, but the sample builds for characters, powers, and the like; as well as advice, tables, and appendices are necessary for newbies and do take up 150-200 more pages (and some of that is useful for old-timers as well). As a result, I would like the rules section streamlined for ease of reference, and then see the other material moved to other sections of the book. For instance, instead of a lengthy dissertation on the potential problems with elemental controls in the "rules" section, that can be put in a GM Advice or "Danger Will Robinson" or "tort law" section, while the actual rules section can contain the essential mechanics and optional sidebar methods without too much legalese to wade through for experienced heroites, or those just wanting to check the basic facts of a thing.

[Akiva]

One thing I've noticed about HERO is that sometimes rules are duplicated verbatim in several parts of the book. Removing this duplication and replacing them with page references will help somewhat.

Personally, I don't want a 320-page rulebook. I'm perfectly happy with a 600-page one. I like the level of detail that Steve goes into and I appreciate the number of examples that he uses (although I hope that, in 6E, he varies them some more; I'd like to see examples that don't always involved superheroes or always refer to Energy Blast).

On the other hand, I'm well aware that a huge rulebook is an immediate turn-off to some people especially when lite games are all the rage. It reminds me of when everyone was competing with TSR: 'AD&D has 300 spells?! We'll we've got 3,000! AD&D only has 8 classes?! We've got 60!!' Now it's, 'HERO is 600 pages long?! Well, our game is only 6 sentences long!! And it's just as detailed and rich!!!! SERIOUSLY!!!!!!'

The heft and crunch attracted me to HERO but I'm sure it's also a turn off to people, especially these days. It'll be interesting to see how Steve handles it.

[JohnTaber]

I'm sure this is posted somewhere but at DunDraCon Steve and Darren conveyed that the 6th ed books will be split into two volumes. Characters in one volume and combat/adventuring in a second volume. It will be two physical books. I guess Steve needed lots of space. ;)

[Thia Halmades]

On the other hand, I'm well aware that a huge rulebook is an immediate turn-off to some people especially when lite games are all the rage. It reminds me of when everyone was competing with TSR: 'AD&D has 300 spells?! We'll we've got 3,000! AD&D only has 8 classes?! We've got 60!!' Now it's, 'HERO is 600 pages long?! Well, our game is only 6 sentences long!! And it's just as detailed and rich!!!! SERIOUSLY!!!!!!'

I always feel guilty when I rep my own LOL account.

[Akiva]

I always feel guilty when I rep my own LOL account.

IT TICKLES!&#*!$(

[Akiva]

I'm sure this is posted somewhere but at DunDraCon Steve and Darren conveyed that the 6th ed books will be split into two volumes. Characters in one volume and combat/adventuring in a second volume. It will be two physical books. I guess Steve needed lots of space. ;)

T SATAN PLZ LET THEM BE 600 PAGES EACH

[Sean Waters]

Steve, can I suggest half a dozen different editions, all set in a different size font, so that the rules are the same but the page count is 100, 200, 300 ,400, 500, 600: you CAN please all of the people all of the time :)

What?

[Sean Waters]

I'm sure this is posted somewhere but at DunDraCon Steve and Darren conveyed that the 6th ed books will be split into two volumes. Characters in one volume and combat/adventuring in a second volume. It will be two physical books. I guess Steve needed lots of space. ;)

I appreciate that this will turn everyone against it, but that is a stunningly good idea. It would allow the Hero rules and the Hero Character Generation System (both excellent products) to be differentiated.

[buzz]

I appreciate that this will turn everyone against it, but that is a stunningly good idea. It would allow the Hero rules and the Hero Character Generation System (both excellent products) to be differentiated.
As I stated above, I worry that this opens the door to making *both* books 500+ pages.

Regardless, I hope that HG are able to brand the book effectively so new users know what it is they are buying. I.e., know that they need both books, etc.

[Opal]

I'm sure this is posted somewhere but at DunDraCon Steve and Darren conveyed that the 6th ed books will be split into two volumes. Characters in one volume and combat/adventuring in a second volume. It will be two physical books. I guess Steve needed lots of space. ;)I wish I'd been there to express my disapointment with such an idea.

[Barrier]

I can see the economic and functional wisdom of splitting the rules into two books. If you only intend to be a player, you can just purchase the character creation book and be done with it. And if later on you decide to become a GM you can buy the rest of the system.

After all, unless you are intent upon becoming a GM is there really a need for you as a player to know the exact details of the environment rules? I presume that a basic version of the combat rules will be included in the character creation book. But since the really crunchy combat rules are generally controlled by the game master and/or the genre, again I don't see a need to include them in the book for creating characters.

On the other hand, as someone who has to work his RPG purchases into a limited budget, it would have been nice to have everything in one book.

[buzz]

I can see the economic and functional wisdom of splitting the rules into two books. If you only intend to be a player, you can just purchase the character creation book and be done with it. And if later on you decide to become a GM you can buy the rest of the system.
If the split is anything like the section split in 5ER, the chargen book won't include any rules about how to actually play.

I also can't see why anyone interested in playing wouldn't want a complete set of rules. It's not like "player"/"GM" are exclusive roles you need to commit to.

[dsatow]

1 book, 2 books, hah, I laugh at your weak desires and small backpack.

I want a full encyclopedia HERO 26 leather bound volumes and an appendix, dictionary, and thesaurus HERO book!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Sean Waters]

As I stated above, I worry that this opens the door to making *both* books 500+ pages.

Regardless, I hope that HG are able to brand the book effectively so new users know what it is they are buying. I.e., know that they need both books, etc.

You don't need the generation rules, you just need the Hero system rules and about two dozen pages of customiseable templates and you are away...

You'll WANT the generation rules pretty soon, you just don't NEED them.

[Toadmaster]

It's looking like it's going to be two 500 page volumes, and that honestly concerns me.


Two books, heck I'm expecting an Encyclopedia Britanica look alike, Steve is not known for being short winded when it comes to game books. :)

[Toadmaster]

1 book, 2 books, hah, I laugh at your weak desires and small backpack.

I want a full encyclopedia HERO 26 leather bound volumes and an appendix, dictionary, and thesaurus HERO book!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


I guess thats what I get for not reading the whole thread before posting. :o

[Toadmaster]

I wish I'd been there to express my disapointment with such an idea.

I personally kind of like thea idea but I know it went over pretty bad with GURPS 4th. There were a lot of cranky people who didn't like the two book approach and I really couldn't blame them since 3rd ed was one $40 book and 4th ed was two $35 books.

[Akiva]

Considering that HERO is currently a single $50 book, going to two $30 books isn't too much of a stretch for us. Even two $35 books isn't too terribly bad considering that it allows players who aren't completists or GMs to only have to buy one $35 book rather than one $50 book. Even if he tried to keep it in one volume, should we expect a 700- or 800-page book? That'd probably cost $60 or $70 anyway. Although Ptolus is a gorgeous, and incredibly lengthy, rulebook, it's also $120. That certainly doesn't seem at all like a reasonable price even if HERO 6th was just as pretty.

The alternative of Steve trying to squeeze the new edition into the same 600 pages (or less) is far less palatable. I'd rather pay premium for a bigger, better HERO (knowing full well that bigger doesn't necessarily equate to better).

[Vondy]

I really don't want to see GM advice dispersed throughout the book. There are some explanations that amount to dissertations right in the middle of various mechanics that make referencing the current volume quickly something of nuisance. I would rather see GM advice (for running the game and avoiding pitfalls) gathered together and have the mechanics section point to it: "For more information on adjudicating X see page XXX."

[fredrik_nilsson]

With the exception of World of Darkness (vampire, mage and werewolf are more akin to Hero’s genre books) none of the major systems consist of just one book. I might have missed some system (like All Flesh Must Be Eaten or Unknown Armies), but you know what I mean.

Take d20 as an example, it has three books; the Players Handbook (PHB), the Dungeon Master Guide (DMG) and the Monster Manual. The last one already exists in the Hero System (Hero System Bestiary). GURPS also has two books similar to PHB and DMG.

If the size of the core Hero books scare new players off, I’m all for splitting it up in one basic book (Sidekick) and one GM book.

[buzz]

Even two $35 books isn't too terribly bad considering that it allows players who aren't completists or GMs to only have to buy one $35 book rather than one $50 book.
I'd bet that we're probably looking at two $39.95 - $49.95 books, both of which will be needed to learn how the game actually works. I don't have a problem with this; I'm just sayin'.

Casual players will probably want to err on buying the announced, 128pp Basic rulebook, and maybe getting Vol. 1 of the full rulebook for additional build options (but not necessarily).

[fredrik_nilsson]

For me personally two books would only be an issue if both were required and the cross reference too much. Money is less of an issue (but not unimportant).

The current edition of GURPS handles this well enough. If the combination nWOD plus VtR can been seen as two core books (instead of rule book plus genre book), then I guess its an okay match too. If I were either stubborn or poor I could run Vampire with just the spirit rules in the core nWoD book, but with the VtR book it becomes easier by far.

[Akiva]

I happen to really like GURPS 4e and think that the division of it into two rulebooks was a wise thing. When I was running GURPS 4e (before slipping over the event horizon and falling into the HERO maelstrom from which nothing, not even page counts, can escape), I usually only needed the second volume on the table when playing. I look forward to a similar situation with HERO 6e.

The one thing I hope that Steve doesn't follow in Steve's footsteps on is consistent page numbering across the volumes. I think this works for GURPS but I think it would be a mistake for HERO. I'm not sure why; just a hunch.

[Thia Halmades]

To be fair, I have THREE core texts to run the game;

5ER (powers and rules questions)
Combat Handbook, necessary for smoothness and general swift resolution
Equipment Guide (because the 5ER equipment guide is t3h suxx0rz).

So already I need three texts; if I can trim that to two -- Character Creation (where I assume powers are hiding) and a book as useful if not more so than the HSCH, I'll be happy.

[Toadmaster]

The multiple books probably won't be an issue for existing HERO gamers who follow onto 6th, but if one of the intended purposes of 6th is to bring in new players I think 2 5th ed sized books will fail in that regard.

People are already scared off by 5th and seeing how Steve likes to write I find it unlikely that we will see a 128 page players book and a 256 page GM's book. I already have a prediction for the unoffical title of 6th ed, The Two Tomes.

[Akiva]

Combat Handbook, necessary for smoothness and general swift resolution

I keep almost buying this book but I can't seem to justify it. If it had a lay-flat binding, I probably wouldn't even hesitate.

[Captain Obvious]

Aren't they going to do a shorter book, kind of like Sidekick? If so, then splitting the Big Book into two volumes makes sense. Newbies can get the small book, and when they decide they want to take the plunge into character options, they get the character book. Or if they decide they want to explore advanced combat first, they get the combat book. Seems like nice easy steps for the kind of people who can't understand that sometimes rolling low is good, and sometimes rolling high is good.

[steamteck]

Maybe GMs could get both books and players would only have to get character creation if they wanted.

[Captain Obvious]

Well, that works too. Actually, IME, usually the GM gets the book, thinks it's cool and decides to run a game in it. Then, if players think it's cool, they'll get books relevant to them. Whether the short book or the big book o' characters is more relevant would be a judgment call for each individual group, though.

[SteveZilla]

I appreciate that this will turn everyone against it, but that is a stunningly good idea. It would allow the Hero rules and the Hero Character Generation System (both excellent products) to be differentiated.

I agree it's a good idea. It breaks the whole thing down into more manageable "chunks" for people beginning in the system, and if one part needs to be revised and not the whole system, you don't *have* to put out both books again -- just the one that was revised.

[Choldath]

I'm not too fond of the "Two Book" idea, because it's physically 2 books. In my experience, I always forget which book it's in (referrring to D&D) and start looking through one book when it should have been the other. However, if it's broken out specifically (Combat vs Character) and I know that all the crunch is in the Combat, then I don't think it would be too bad.

I, however, did like the numbering convention with GURPS. So long as it was prefixed with something like GMXXX, then it would avoid confusion for me. Just my opinion.

I agree that sometimes 5ER can get lengthy (see Focus) and hope that these kind of things are changed to OOF Short Example, OIF Short Example,... and the GM guide breaks down the reasoning. Do the players really need to know the reason? If so, ask the GM. So long as it's clear how to build it for the player, that is.

I like the way that the Alternity PH/GMG was done where the GMG was broken into the same amount of sections as the PH so you knew where to look (very important, IMHO). Although the way Alternity repeated TONS of information, you did get some additional details in the GMG.

[Aeralys]

It may not be in standing with attracting new players, but the heft of the hero book was always one of my favourite things about 5er. Once again, this doesn't help with new players, but after I'd done the full circuit of all the other rpgs around, it was the obvious depth of the one single book that made me think, yeah, maybe hero will have what I'm looking for.

If each of the two books of 6th edition are like that, I'll be just as happy as I was then, because Steve Long is the one guy I would trust to fill that much and still make it all useful content.

[Steve Long]

This isn't an appropriate thread for this forum. Please keep your posts in the 6E Discussion board limited to rules issues only.