Emotional Responses to 6th Edition (NOW EMO-FRIENDLY)

[KawangaKid]

Before the bashing commences, I do applaud the "let's move forward" philosophy of HERO, despite being really happy with Hero5th and Hero5th Revised.

I'm starting this thread primarily because there ARE a flood of immediate emotional responses to seeing the 6th Edition announcement, and they shouldn't simply be ignored. I know you can't please everyone, but HERO Systems fans are a powerful resource for promoting the game in the Online arena too so here's hoping this helps the company develop plans to overcome these challenges. These are the marketing and business challenges that HERO must address to help 6th Ed's success.

Here are mine:

1. "Oh no! They're going WOTC on us!" This was assuaged by the stated principles in this discussion board, but there's a fear that after we get comfortable with 6th, 7th may be months a way (I exaggerate).

2. "Oh no! All my old stuff is now outmoded bat$#!+ now!" Despite the statements to the contrary, this is a real fear - What about my collection of ULTIMATE (stuff)? The genre stuff is more easily re-toolable, but then again, why should I buy Fantasy HERO again? Maybe they'll just release "rules upgrades" for all the Genre book fantasy bits?

3. "Hey, maybe the rules will be streamlined / changed / otherwise improved!" Hey, I like fiddling with the rules, and even like shifting them in-campaign to reflect 'changes to reality' that are momentary or permanent. One thing I really liked in the much-maligned Fuzion set of rules was the Dials and Switches - a neat shorthand that allows you to specify which options and powerscales you were using in your game.

4. "I need more money!" Then again, I always feel this.

5. "Maybe Sidekick will be part of the marketing philosophy!" I like the smaller books for beginners. Makes it easier to ease newbies into the rules.

I'll try to go through the rest of the threads to mine what others have said.

(Edit) ADDED:

A. "I hope they remove / change / add this!" Curiously, many people also are hoping for changes to the 'canon' rules in the toolkit. Or perhaps they want certain new options to be added to the rules.

B. "Will 6E help or hinder new people joining the hobby / using HERO for RPGs?" And a lot are also wondering if the new version will drive people away from the hobby (and the HERO set of games) or pull them away from it.

[GloryFox]

You know,,, I just bought 6 copies of the Character Creation handbook this weekend to teach my son and his friends how to play the game. These rules are not hard to learn and the soft covers for the product are very nice. I have some new players moving in because they won't touch any WoTC products again.

The timing for this is very bad IMO.

[nexus]

Emotionally, I am not pleased with choice. The majority of the proposed changes strike me as bad ideas or at best "meh." I'm willing to look it over when it happens but right now I am not thrilled and if much of what is planned comes to past I may end up parting ways with Hero which saddens me.

Oddly, the thing I dread the most is the least likely to happen that being a push towards making Hero a "Forge-y" narrativist game.

[Enforcer84]

I can't say I'm fond of many of the changes being bandied about. But I'll wait and see.

[Pattern Ghost]

I'm a little concerned with some of the changes leading to point inflated character sheets. I see one design goal being getting rid of character sheet clutter, but some of the ideas, like getting rid of figured characteristics seem likely to lead to a bloated sheet.

On the other hand, Steve's a pretty smart guy, so I'll take a wait and see approach.

[Enforcer84]

I see "Ease of use" and "increased granularity" mutually exclusive. But I've been known to be wrong. ;)

[Pattern Ghost]

I see "Ease of use" and "increased granularity" mutually exclusive. But I've been known to be wrong. ;)

You said it better than me. But must spread some rep before I can hit ya again.

[incrdbil]

I see "Ease of use" and "increased granularity" mutually exclusive. But I've been known to be wrong. ;)

I see increasd granualirity as one of those fads that, years later, you are still trying to live down. Sort of like 70's disco albums music that turns up in your collection when friends are over.


Rolemaster..aftemath..more granularity than passing kidney stones, and about as enjoyable to play rules-wise.

[Enforcer84]

I'll admit to being a bit shellshocked. I mean I've been in every sticky thread....that didn't come out right...but anyway, I've read them all and each proposed change is, if they were to be gathered all together and presented as the final product, rather dishearteningly different.


That said, the discussion is interesting and I trust DOJ to guide HERO. We'll see. I consider myself nervously optimistic with occasional flashes of panic. And a dash of snark.

[GloryFox]

Sorry I'm still at the Flashes of Panic Stage. I get the humble job of informing my Friday night compatriots the news of the hour. We are a bunch of middle aged overworked grumpy old men with teenage kids who are just now getting into the role playing games. This will not be good news to them. They are still having a fit over WoTC choice of direction, and Steve Jackson's games for going 4th ed. Other than FUSION Champions has been fairly stable and a good working system. Sorry to see it go (after looking at the purposed changes) especially since the fan base revived it only what seemed a few short years ago.

[Enforcer84]

Well, we should wait to see what changes are actually on the horizon. I mean some of the QA segments Steve has done are contrary or don't make sense if the question asked prior or after came to pass. I believe right now he's laying it all out and seeing what there is.


That said, it's not like you guys can't continue to play 5th. Heck I could translate the fuzion Champions characters to 4th ed. So you might not even miss out on any of the new material much... I dunno.



And at least you get to play. The last Champions game I ran was in 2005, the last one I played in was...1997?

I've been amusing myself writing up comic book characters and turning all our old campaigns into a wannabe world book.

[KawangaKid]

On further reflection, Hero Games has pretty much overcome the distaste I had with the "New Millenium" problems and lack of support that hampered it. Hero Games currently has a sizable balance in my trust of them and their directions so I'm waiting to see how things develop.

I'm quite happy to see that the company is open to our feedback, because I want to HELP in the development of 6th Ed. I don't want the game to veer sharply away from the things that I like with it, and so I'm hesitant to post until I can gather my arguments yea or nay for each item in some sort of understandable structure.

That being said, my worst fear is NOT that Hero Games will lose me as a fan - I'll always have 5th Ed / 5th Ed Revised.

My worst fear is that the changes will not:
(1) retain enough support of the current fanbase of the Game System to help the system and company thrive;
(2) attract a sufficient new fanbase to the Game System to help the system and company thrive.

[devlin1]

Oddly, the thing I dread the most is the least likely to happen that being a push towards making Hero a "Forge-y" narrativist game.
Given the people and system involved, I highly doubt this would come to pass. You'd have an easier time turning lead into gold.

[James Gillen]

I wish my lawn was emo so it would cut itself.

jg

[Killer Shrike]

Wow, a lot of "change is bad!" posts.

Im of the opposite opinion.

IMO Evolution is generally a good thing; Progress is generally a good thing. If anything I read the threads and I see much more of Steve saying "could change this...but not gonna" than I prefer. I'm not advocating chucking it all and starting over, but I think it is very possible to make some significant mechanical / mathematical fixes and improvements that will ultimately make the game stronger. I also think its possible to go even further and make some changes that might seem dramatic at first but that will improve the systems ability for us to use it to run and play "more fun" and still very "HERO-ific" games.

[Enforcer84]

I'm starting to think that this 6e thing was simply a ruse to get me to a million posts. I'm addicted to defending the old ways...but some stuff from Steve and Others is cool too.

[Killer Shrike]

I see "Ease of use" and "increased granularity" mutually exclusive. But I've been known to be wrong. ;)

Ever tried to sand wood with too high or low a grain of sand-paper? You need to pick the right granularity for the job at hand. Having the ability to choose more or less granular gives you the option of going for a faster "rough" pass or a slower but more "refined" pass or something in between.

Having options built in to pick the right tool and use it as precisely as desired eases use.

Not having options provided and having to fight the system to get what you want detracts from ease of use.

The thing is, most systems are not toolkits, they are hard railed. In them "increased granularity" really means "things we're going to make you keep track of in great detail whether you want to or not".

The HERO System is toolkit based, very rarely does it say "you must do it this way and only this way", and most of us ignore it when it does anyway. So when the HERO System prevents granularity it does so OPTIONALLY. You utilize it when it improves your game, rather than having to live with it whether it does or not.

[Pentoth]

I have said it before and I will say it again. I will NOT be going onto another edition. I have invested enough money already in the current one. I understand why the company may want to move on however they will be doing so without me. Some of the changes in rules may be good but surely they won't be good enough to get me to fork out enough money to buy all the new books. I have a large majority of the books that have been published in the current edition. Why should I buy them again in new and improved 6th edition when later on the company are going to do a 7th? There is no valid reason for me to move onward with this company. I had planned on buying the few that I don't now I have to wonder. Should I even bother to buy the books I don't have now? Why should I support a company that is moving in a direction I don't like? To say I am not impressed would be an understatement. My wife however will be ecstatic as that means no more RPG books for me to buy.

[steamteck]

I'm not against change but very little even moderately exciting has been put forth so far and many suggestions (even some from Steve himself) and things on the table would hurt HERO significantly for me. I'm also not pleased how the once really nice HERO boards have gotten touchy and unpleasant.

[CourtFool]

Change may be bad. I do not think I can argue that since we are really talking about preference here.

Change is inevitable. I believe that to be a truth.

It seems to me that there are two underlying fears. No new 5th edition material once 6th is released and the 5th edition player base will shrink.

[aylwin13]

I have to agree with Pentoth, but I'm not as "angry" (that's how I'm reading his post anyway) about it. Actually, I'm more sad.

I'm an almost 45 year-old father, that works 40 hours a week, and only has about 5 hours a week for gaming. Also, in today's lousy economy my gaming budget is very limited. I've only purchased some of the 5th books, and there are still quite a few I'd still like to get. If I can scratch up the funds, I just might.

That said, there is no way that I can justify getting into a new edition. I'll maybe pick up a 6th ed sourcebook or two, if it has really cool stuff that interests me. I can always convert it to 5th. But in the end that's where I'll be: back here with 5th ed. I'm too old and frugal to go out and buy a whole new set of books for a game I only get to play for a few hours each week. HERO has been my only system since I was introduced to Champions back in the spring of '82. It will continue to be the system I use, but it will be 5th. I truly wish DoJ and HERO Games all the best in the future. I'll still come here to the boards (there are great people and ideas here :)), but my dollar probably won't be seen very often.

[Diamond Spear]

For those of you worried about money allow me to make a suggestion: Each week from now until 6th edition releases put $5 in an envelope labeled “Sixth Edition Fund”. Given the 18 month lead time that will net you the sum of $360. Use it to buy the 6th edition core books. Read them. If you find that the changes are not so bad as you feared you will now have around $300 to spend on 6th edition books that you want, more if you keep putting that $5 a week away and the books you want come out months after the core books. If you don’t like the 6th edition rules than sell your new book on the second hand market (or even keep it just in case) and find a worthy use for the remaining $300 or so. Does this make sense to anyone but me?

[GloryFox]

posted by Pentoth
I have said it before and I will say it again. I will NOT be going onto another edition. I have invested enough money already in the current one. I understand why the company may want to move on however they will be doing so without me. Some of the changes in rules may be good but surely they won't be good enough to get me to fork out enough money to buy all the new books. I have a large majority of the books that have been published in the current edition. Why should I buy them again in new and improved 6th edition when later on the company are going to do a 7th? There is no valid reason for me to move onward with this company. I had planned on buying the few that I don't now I have to wonder. Should I even bother to buy the books I don't have now? Why should I support a company that is moving in a direction I don't like? To say I am not impressed would be an understatement. My wife however will be ecstatic as that means no more RPG books for me to buy.


You are echoing what my Email has already begun to fill up with from my group of players. For thoes of you saying it's time to progress forward let me remind you that the Number 1 game sold in the world is still the same game sold when it was first released.

Monopoly

Yet how many of you have "house rules" that modify Monopoly? Rules such as collecting money when you land on "Free Parking". Are they making new rules for Monopoly or adding a rule that says you get FREE money when you land on Free Parking?
NO

Does the game still sell despite your creative and awesome Monopoly idea's NOT being included in the box set?
YES

Seems to me that 5ed Revised is in it's current state IS the BEST RPG on the Market. I don't want it better I want it "as is" plus. I want to move all of my groups games to HERO 5th ed Revised. I don't want 6th ed unless it adds to existing rules. I don't see a need for 6th edition if it takes away, and many of the purposed rule changes only "crimp my creativity" and do not expand upon already existing options. If you are going to make a 6th ed then ADD to the great game as was has been done (FUSION excluded) but don't take away from it as what appears to be suggested by the overly eager.

PLEASE don't take away from HERO my ability to be creative with the existing rules. Rather expand on creativity or keep it as is.

[CourtFool]

I agree that Hero is the best RPG on the market, but I also want to make it better.

I really do not see how any of the proposed ideas crimp your creativity. Would you please elaborate?

[aylwin13]

For those of you worried about money allow me to make a suggestion: Each week from now until 6th edition releases put $5 in an envelope labeled “Sixth Edition Fund”. Given the 18 month lead time that will net you the sum of $360. Use it to buy the 6th edition core books. Read them. If you find that the changes are not so bad as you feared you will now have around $300 to spend on 6th edition books that you want, more if you keep putting that $5 a week away and the books you want come out months after the core books. If you don’t like the 6th edition rules than sell your new book on the second hand market (or even keep it just in case) and find a worthy use for the remaining $300 or so. Does this make sense to anyone but me?
What you're saying makes sense, if you want a whole second set of books that you really don't need; since the ones you already have (and you haven't even got all of those yet) work perfectly well. I'm not a completist collector, so I only buy want I want to use or read. Also, that $360 could be spent on bills, or the other hobbies that I have. Why duplicate what I already have? And if 6th will be that different, so that it's not an almost duplicate, then I'll stay with 5th anyway, since that's what I know and like. Either way, I'll be staying with 5th ed.

[buzz]

I'm not advocating chucking it all and starting over...
I am, pretty much. Most of the proposed changes are not going far enough, for my tastes.

Regardless: Change is good.

[GloryFox]

I agree that Hero is the best RPG on the market, but I also want to make it better.

Then make a house rule.

[Diamond Spear]

What you're saying makes sense, if you want a whole second set of books that you really don't need; since the ones you already have (and you haven't even got all of those yet) work perfectly well. I'm not a completist collector, so I only buy want I want to use or read. Also, that $360 could be spent on bills, or the other hobbies that I have. Why duplicate what I already have? And if 6th will be that different, so that it's not an almost duplicate, then I'll stay with 5th anyway, since that's what I know and like. Either way, I'll be staying with 5th ed.

My suggestion makes sense even if you only plan on buying the “core” book and adapting your fifth edition books to sixth edition. In that case you can put $1 a week away and in 18 months you’ll have $72 to spend on the “core” books. As for the money being better spent elsewhere that is the reason I suggested putting a very small amount of money away each week. I figure that there isn’t anyone on the boards who can’t afford to set aside 71 cents a day for the next 18 months.

I also don’t understand how you can dislike a book that hasn’t even been written yet. I say let’s wait and give it a chance.

[CourtFool]

Then make a house rule.

You do not see the irony in that, do you?

[Plex]

I'll do the same with the 6th edition next year as I will be doing with the 4th edition, from another unsaid gaming corp, this year. I'll pick up the first book that comes out with the new rules, if I like what I am reading and it plays out well, I'll go to the next book, and go from there. If it ends up that I don't like it, I'll sell the newest edition book(s) I picked up, pick up what books I can from the old outdated system and just continue playing. It's pretty easy to make up your own stuff anyway.

I still plan on picking up books that are coming out this year and next, nothing has changed my mind on that, unless Ghost Angel gives it a bad review... I am still going to have fun playing in a system I like and a genre I love.

[Akiva]

As someone who has been through this very same type of public game revision discussion with more than one game system before before, I want to let everyone know that it always starts off with people presenting ideas that are practically cataclysms of change. When working on the Rolemaster revision, I floated some ideas that were very well received. For awhile there, I had more Idea Points (which are awarded by other forum members) than the game's actual designer had. But, many of those ideas were radical departures from Rolemaster's core philosophy. They might have been good ideas but they were so far removed that they might as well have gone into a different game.

You're going to see that same thing here. Steve and others are going to float some ideas that are likely to make different people's heads explode. But, as the process goes forward, those radical ideas, as fun and exciting as they can be initially, will slowly be cropped away and you'll end up with changes that are more evolutionary than revolutionary. Sure, there will likely be a few breakers between 6E and 5E but probably nothing so radical that a simple conversion document won't cover it.

As for the costs, well, you got me there. Upgrading a system with as much awesome support as 5E has (I sometimes look at my slowly growing collection of 5E supplements with a kind of happy girlish sigh; a feeling, by the way, I haven't had since I was collecting Rolemaster Standard System books) is always an expensive thing. As others have suggested, start saving now. Or just decide to stick to 5E.

You'll have a true reason to panic, however, if one or both of the following things happen:

1. Steve announces that the core rule book will be divided into several volumes: a Sidekick-like core rules book and then books handling each part of the system (Powers, Skills, etc.).

2. Steve announces that they're going to be published in color. Color's swanky but color's expensive and, regardless of what SJG or WoTC tells you, color isn't necessary to sell a game; it's necessary to hide a lackluster rules set (and I happen to really like GURPS). Consistent rules, a mild learning curve, ease-of-play, and positive word-of-mouth sells a game.

Personally, I just hope that Steve doesn't ruin the layout. Typography and formatting are a HUGE deal for me. It's about as dumb as can be but a book with amateur layout and poor font choices is a book I can't deal with. For example, I'm a huge supporter of Iron Crown and I tried really hard to get into HARP but, man, those fonts, and that layout... I couldn't get past it. I did buy a bunch of HARP books anyway. Y'know, to show support.

Shallow but true!

[nexus]

Personally, I'm not angry about 6th Edition. I am concerned. Very few of the proposed changes excite me, most of them disappoint me. Of course, 6th could work out just fine. I'll see when it's released but the current outlook isn't promising from where I sit. The final product will have to be truly impressive.

Of course Hero games doesn't "owe" me anything. They are a business. They exist to make money but neither do I owe them anything. If they don't produce a product that interest me enough to spend my money on it, I won't buy it. Who lays down cash for something they aren't happy with? I'll be saddened by this but I'll get over it. For me isn't "fear of change" its fear of negative change. Change, in and of itself, isn't automatically good.

[CourtFool]

Change, in and of itself, isn't automatically good.

I completely agree. But I also believe that tradition, in and of itself, isn't automatically good.

[GloryFox]

You do not see the irony in that, do you?

No I don't. Here is an example. I have a house rule for Monopoly that says, "You may declare war on a property already owned if you cannot pay". We then use a form of RISK rules and military pieces you can purchase throughout the game. It turns Monopoly into a economic war game. It's a better game IMO because it gets rid of people who will not trade properties under any circumstance. It provides some realistic aspects of conquest and diplomacy. However as superior that my "house rules" for Monopoly are I do not push them on anyone as different people play in different ways.

HERO system offers a unique way of building characters with Lego's. Any current power imaginable can be made with this existing rules. Any genere that covers the imagination can be covered without any "house rule" changing what I want to emulate. The game can be as realistic as I want or unrealistic. There are books already in print that support my games with idea's that only enhance the primary published product. I see no reason to change the status quo unless shown a major flaw in the system itself. As hard as I try I can't find any major flaw in the system therefore the system is as good as it needs to be, to accomplish the task it was made to perform. I have "house Rules" that differ from one another to simulate an effect or feel for a particular game my players have interests with. My house rules differ from fantasy, pulp, or champions style of games. They do not affect the HERO system rules themselves but ADD to an already great game, just as my Monopoly house rules do, BUT I do not force my Monopoly rules on anyone as published product.

[nexus]

I completely agree. But I also believe that tradition, in and of itself, isn't automatically good.

Agreed. As I said 6th could turn out great. Right now, I'm not impressed with the proposal but I'm willing to wait and see what percolates.

[Vondy]

I see "Ease of use" and "increased granularity" mutually exclusive. But I've been known to be wrong. ;)

I think it depends whether you can choose the granularity as an option or its rammed down your throat. I think hero could easily be streamlined without ripping out its guts and some of the legacy issues done away with without seriously changing the game.

For instance, we already have the characteristic method of buying skills and the background skill method (and strangely I can apply either to background skills). Presenting both for all skills solves the current issues a lot of people have for skills without changing much of anything and unifies a concept: how to buy skills.

Also, the count body for grab contests thing blows the mind. Its a legacy mechanic that would be better handled by opposed strength rolls (modified by maneuvers or situational mods) and MOS. There's a lot of weird one off mechanics in hero that could simply disappear.

On the other hand, my skepticism in terms of inevitable doom over changing the method of characteristic purchase, or even removing figured characteristics, doesn't mean I think they should be changed. They work and their pricing has been tested.

On the other hand, some serious thinking needs to be put into the resolution of mental powers and presence attacks and "levels of effect." The system is just wonky in that regard. There has to be a better way of handling it.

I'm not against changes. I think the system needs some. Or at least, some tidying up. But the changes have to be things that matter. I think some of the proposed things matter and some don't. I would say, though, that the more "down to earth" your games the more problems you have.

One key example of this is heroes "one scale to rule them all." It works great for high end cinematic games or superheroes, but not so much for other genres. On the other hand, I don't think the scale should ripped out because that would screw up the superheroic scale. Rather, I think options for scales should be given (though they should be given in a cogent, internally consistent manner).

Aside from straightening up almost thirty years of clutter, however, the only thing I think that needs to be changed is hero's "universalism." It should be presented as a toolkit with options instead. And in doing so, the essential core of the system can be preserved for the traditionalists while solutions for problems that do exist within the system can be provided for those who love the system in spite of itself.

[Shaft]

I've liked pretty much everything DOJ has done up to date, so I am prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt on 6th edition.

[Diamond Spear]

No I don't. Here is an example. I have a house rule for Monopoly that says, "You may declare war on a property already owned if you cannot pay". We then use a form of RISK rules and military pieces you can purchase throughout the game. It turns Monopoly into a economic war game. It's a better game IMO because it gets rid of people who will not trade properties under any circumstance. It provides some realistic aspects of conquest and diplomacy. However as superior that my "house rules" for Monopoly are I do not push them on anyone as different people play in different ways.

HERO system offers a unique way of building characters with Lego's. Any current power imaginable can be made with this existing rules. Any genere that covers the imagination can be covered without any "house rule" changing what I want to emulate. The game can be as realistic as I want or unrealistic. There are books already in print that support my games with idea's that only enhance the primary published product. I see no reason to change the status quo unless shown a major flaw in the system itself. As hard as I try I can't find any major flaw in the system therefore the system is as good as it needs to be, to accomplish the task it was made to perform. I have "house Rules" that differ from one another to simulate an effect or feel for a particular game my players have interests with. My house rules differ from fantasy, pulp, or champions style of games. They do not affect the HERO system rules themselves but ADD to an already great game, just as my Monopoly house rules do, BUT I do not force my Monopoly rules on anyone as published product.

Take a look at Fourth edition. The two are 90% the same and yet that 10% is enough to make fifth by far the superior version. I have great confidence that the difference between fifth and sixth will be along the same lines.

[aylwin13]

My suggestion makes sense even if you only plan on buying the “core” book and adapting your fifth edition books to sixth edition. In that case you can put $1 a week away and in 18 months you’ll have $72 to spend on the “core” books. As for the money being better spent elsewhere that is the reason I suggested putting a very small amount of money away each week. I figure that there isn’t anyone on the boards who can’t afford to set aside 71 cents a day for the next 18 months.

I also don’t understand how you can dislike a book that hasn’t even been written yet. I say let’s wait and give it a chance.It has nothing to do with disliking anything. That would indeed be stupid, since the book doesn't exist. It's that I won't/really can't spend that amount of money on books for a new edition, when I've spent what I have (or may spend in the future) on the current edition. For an edition that works fine. I won't go out and buy a new car just because it's the current trend. I won't buy a new car until the one I have dies or no longer meets my needs. Simple as that. And for the 5 hours a week that I game, I don't need the new, current version. If gaming were my career that might be different.

[Kenn]

Until I see the final product, I'm EXPECTING second edition Fuzion.

Change isn't inherently good or bad. But the proposed changes are so encompassing that backwards compatability sounds unlikely. And it sounds like it will look like a different game.

I remember being excited about the "fifth edition" that ended up being called Fuzion... until I got it home and read it. I then had to go a number of years without any new Hero material.

10+ years later, I'm olded and more jaded. I'll skip the excitement stage.

Some of the new ideas in Fifth edition were good. But too many rules from Fourth were changed to match the House Rules of one group of gamers.

I prefer change that makes what already exists better to change that says "the past 27 years we've been doing it wrong."

[Thia Halmades]

Well, we should wait to see what changes are actually on the horizon. I mean some of the QA segments Steve has done are contrary or don't make sense if the question asked prior or after came to pass. I believe right now he's laying it all out and seeing what there is.


That said, it's not like you guys can't continue to play 5th. Heck I could translate the fuzion Champions characters to 4th ed. So you might not even miss out on any of the new material much... I dunno.



And at least you get to play. The last Champions game I ran was in 2005, the last one I played in was...1997?

I've been amusing myself writing up comic book characters and turning all our old campaigns into a wannabe world book.

Silly Chad. You can't play 5th anymore. Once 6th publishes, all of your 5th Ed books will immediately self-destruct and become totally worthless. Didn't you know this?

[aylwin13]

Silly Chad. You can't play 5th anymore. Once 6th publishes, all of your 5th Ed books will immediately self-destruct and become totally worthless. Didn't you know this?
[Mother voice]

Thia, behave yourself. ;)

[/Mother voice]

[Mesa Virga]

I have no problems with change, however I strongly suspect (given what we have seen in the admittedly early stages of discussion) that the changes for 6th ed. will not be ones which will migrate HERO from it's current position of "interesting genre books, I can crib from those and collect the stuff that interests me" to "Matt's system of choice."

In this case, I will stop buying when the migration to 6th comes about, once I have digested the actual changes which have been made - assuming the expected "what has changed" document appears.

Now, start looking at doing things along the lines of splitting DEX into agility and dexterity (and not the already mentioned CV/DEX/SPD split) and I'll start to take more of an interest in upgrading...

[CourtFool]

I prefer change that makes what already exists better to change that says "the past 27 years we've been doing it wrong."

And here is the rub. Everyone’s definition of ‘better’ is going to be different. To make matters worse, a differing preference is seen as a personal attack. I really do not see 6e as DOJ’s way of telling you that you have been playing wrong for the past 27 years.

It seems to me that everyone that doesn’t want ‘house rules’ in 6e just don’t want someone else’s house rules in 6e.

[Pentoth]

For those of you worried about money allow me to make a suggestion: Each week from now until 6th edition releases put $5 in an envelope labeled “Sixth Edition Fund”. Given the 18 month lead time that will net you the sum of $360. Use it to buy the 6th edition core books. Read them. If you find that the changes are not so bad as you feared you will now have around $300 to spend on 6th edition books that you want, more if you keep putting that $5 a week away and the books you want come out months after the core books. If you don’t like the 6th edition rules than sell your new book on the second hand market (or even keep it just in case) and find a worthy use for the remaining $300 or so. Does this make sense to anyone but me?

It doesn't make sense to me for two reasons.

1. I currently own 59 out of the current edition of books. I have averaged the costs to about 35 dollars apiece as I have no local gaming store and had to pay extra UPS charges when I would buy products from HERO directly. So that cost me about 2, 065 dollars. Why should I put money aside? The new edition is going to render all my books obsolete. There is no way at all any rule changes will be good enough for me to spend that kind of money again. Now if the rules aren't a huge change this leads to my second issue.

2. I have 59 books there is no way I will convert them over into a new edition. I quite frankly wish to spend my precious time playing the game not converting it.


If I seem angry I am not so much angry as I am frustrated with the gaming industry as a whole. It seems like WOTC has created a mindset that frequent new editions is a good thing. It may work for CCG's but that business was gangbusters. RPG market isn't near as big so alienating longtime players just seems like a bad idea. I am not a business man so the new edition may be financially a good idea. I just recognize that my interests are best served not following along.

[Diamond Spear]

It doesn't make sense to me for two reasons.

1. I currently own 59 out of the current edition of books. I have averaged the costs to about 35 dollars apiece as I have no local gaming store and had to pay extra UPS charges when I would buy products from HERO directly. So that cost me about 2, 065 dollars. Why should I put money aside? The new edition is going to render all my books obsolete. There is no way at all any rule changes will be good enough for me to spend that kind of money again. Now if the rules aren't a huge change this leads to my second issue.

2. I have 59 books there is no way I will convert them over into a new edition. I quite frankly wish to spend my time playing the game not converting it.


If I seem angry I am not so much angry as I am frustrated with the gaming industry as a whole. It seems like WOTC has created a mindset that frequent new editions is a good thing. It may work for CCG's but that business was gangbusters. RPG market isn't near as big so alienating longtime players just seems like a bad idea. I am not a business man so the new edition may be financially a good idea. I just recognize that my interests are best served not following along.

I would hardly call 7-8 years "Frequent". Add that to the fact that games that do not change stagenate, that if this is the same incremental improvement that we saw from 4th to 5th than you really only need to buy the "core book(s) and to the fact that you really won't know if you like it or not before you see it and I just don't see why you (and others) are reacting the way you are.

My own first reaction was "WHAT THE HELL???????????" And then I decided that rather than getting upset I would give it a day of thinknig about it, reading what Steve had posted and thinking about it some more before I could make a rational decision on how I felt. I've come down on the side of cautious optimism. I'm going to follow my own advice and put away my 71 cents a day for the next 18 months and purchase the sixth edition main book when it comes out. If I don't like it then I'll put it on my shelf to look at in another six months and I'm sure I'll find a good use for the left over $300 I'll have saved. I really, truly, honestly don't see a downside.

[archermoo]

2. Steve announces that they're going to be published in color. Color's swanky but color's expensive and, regardless of what SJG or WoTC tells you, color isn't necessary to sell a game; it's necessary to hide a lackluster rules set (and I happen to really like GURPS). Consistent rules, a mild learning curve, ease-of-play, and positive word-of-mouth sells a game.

One of their plans as announced at Dundracon was for at least the core 6th edition books to be printed in colour. I'm pretty lukewarm on that one myself, mostly due to the fact that the glossy paper that is all but required to do colour printing feels like crap to my hands. But we'll see how it turns out.

[CourtFool]

I would rather not pay more for presentation. I never bought Hero products for the art. Sorry to the artists. I bought Hero for the system.

On the other hand, I have heard people say they were not interested in Hero because of its ‘bland appearance’. I can see why DOJ would try color to see if they could increase sales.

[sbarron]

HERO system offers a unique way of building characters with Lego's. Any current power imaginable can be made with this existing rules. Any genere that covers the imagination can be covered without any "house rule" changing what I want to emulate. The game can be as realistic as I want or unrealistic. There are books already in print that support my games with idea's that only enhance the primary published product. I see no reason to change the status quo unless shown a major flaw in the system itself. As hard as I try I can't find any major flaw in the system therefore the system is as good as it needs to be, to accomplish the task it was made to perform. I have "house Rules" that differ from one another to simulate an effect or feel for a particular game my players have interests with. My house rules differ from fantasy, pulp, or champions style of games. They do not affect the HERO system rules themselves but ADD to an already great game, just as my Monopoly house rules do, BUT I do not force my Monopoly rules on anyone as published product.First of all, no one is forcing any rules on you. No one is taking away your ability to run your 5th Ed. games. No one is impinging on your ability to be just as creative as you want using the 5th Ed. rules. And any 5th Ed. books that you're missing will probably be available a lot cheaper over the next couple of years. If you're happy with your gaming experience using 5th, then just keep on gaming. If the change to 5th Ed. was any indication, most of the supplements for 6th Ed. will be rules light enough to be useful to those not using the 6th Ed. (Assuming the 6th Ed. is so different from 5th as to make them incompatable...which I'm pretty sure Steve has said he doesn't want.)

Second of all, your whole position is all fine and good, but its totally unrealistic to expect HERO not to make new editions every few years.

How many copies of HERO 5th do you think they sold? How many copies of The Ultimate Brick? I bet that HERO 5th probably outsold TUB by at least 10 fold...and they probably made more money on each sale to boot. That's the reality of tabletop gaming. The big money is not in the supplements, its in the core rules. Everyone that plays buys the core rules. Only people interested in Bricks bought the TUB. And that's probably especially true for HERO, since, as we all know, its core rules are truly all you need to build whatever the heck you want.

At this point in 5th Ed., the only books HERO can make are niche books that at best appeal to 1/3 of their fan base. Most books they can write now will only appeal to about 10%-15%. That might be enough sales for them to survive indefinitely, but they're never going to grow their fan base that way.

They need to make updates to the system to keep up with the times. HERO is not the perfect system. It's just really old, and has been carrying some sacred baggage around for a long time. Steve is looking to tap into the MMO fan base with a product that will appeal to them. Therefore, he's looking to drop some of the baggage and streamline the system. Oh, and he's trying to make some money in the process. Notice that they first 3 books on tap for the 6th Ed. are the core rules, the Martial Arts supplement, and the Champions genre book? Coincidence that those are traditionally the books that almost all HERO gamers buy, and the ones that will be most appealing to the MMO crowd? I doubt it.

[Paragon]

I've got the peculiar advantage that I mostly took a break from Hero right about the time 5th hit after it being one of my default systems-of-choice for most of my gaming career, right from 2e on (1e had, well, problems, even though parts of it I had something to do with the origin of). In addition, I've been around long enough to know that games spawn new editions like dogs spawn puppies; to not expect them to do so ever so often is to not understand the breed, and Hero hasn't been abnormally prolific here.

So I can view this all in a somewhat neutral fashion, even if I did just order a hundred bucks in books. :nonp:

[Pentoth]

I fully expected a 6th edition at one point or another. I just won't follow along. As has already been pointed out. I own a Grand Am now just because a new edition one is released should I blindly jump on the bandwagon and buy a new one? Of course not. If I NEED a new one I may however I don't need a 6th ed HERO. To go along further with the car analogy just because I have an older car doesn't mean GM stop giving me support for it.

[Akiva]

No offense but the car analogy is hardly apropos. Last time I checked, most people didn't need to take out a loan to buy a HERO core rule book nor do they need to pay for insurance, regular fill-ups, or oil changes and other maintenance. Nor does it cost $12,000 or more to get into HERO even if a lot of people are crying out that it will cost them precisely that much to switch to 6th edition.

[SAVeira]

No offense but the car analogy is hardly apropos. Last time I checked, most people didn't need to take out a loan to buy a HERO core rule book nor do they need to pay for insurance, regular fill-ups, or oil changes and other maintenance. Nor does it cost $12,000 or more to get into HERO even if a lot of people are crying out that it will cost them precisely that much to switch to 6th edition.
I am in Canada, when FRED came out, the Canada $ was really rather low compared to the US $, so the book cost a small fortune. About 1.5 times the US price, if I remember correctly. The thing is that I did not just have to purchase I copy for myself, I had to buy copies for everyone I gamed with. Yes, that is how I got players for HERO games, I give them their own copies of the book. I really do not wish to have to do that again anytime soon.

[Pentoth]

I am in Canada, when FRED came out, the Canada $ was really rather low compared to the US $, so the book cost a small fortune. About 1.5 times the US price, if I remember correctly. The thing is that I did not just have to purchase I copy for myself, I had to buy copies for everyone I gamed with. Yes, that is how I got players for HERO games, I give them their own copies of the book. I really do not wish to have to do that again anytime soon.

I hear you SAVeira. I couldn't get players otherwise myself. They all wanted to play D&D.

[Pentoth]

No offense but the car analogy is hardly apropos. Last time I checked, most people didn't need to take out a loan to buy a HERO core rule book nor do they need to pay for insurance, regular fill-ups, or oil changes and other maintenance. Nor does it cost $12,000 or more to get into HERO even if a lot of people are crying out that it will cost them precisely that much to switch to 6th edition.

Actually as I said I have spent over 2,000 dollars on HERO. We aren't talking just core book here. That IS the price of a vehicle. Not a new one but now it is hoped I will drop that kind of money again. I don't think so.

[Akiva]

Again, I stress, your investment in books doesn't earn you immunity from DoJ ever publishing a new edition. Everyone invests in products that eventually become obsolete whether it's a gallon of milk, a video card, or an analog television.

The argument that you some how deserve to have DoJ never upgrade their game system because of how much money you've spent is, as I've written elsewhere, not a valid argument.

[Paragon]

I fully expected a 6th edition at one point or another. I just won't follow along. As has already been pointed out. I own a Grand Am now just because a new edition one is released should I blindly jump on the bandwagon and buy a new one? Of course not. If I NEED a new one I may however I don't need a 6th ed HERO. To go along further with the car analogy just because I have an older car doesn't mean GM stop giving me support for it.

You've obviously never tried getting parts for an older car. They do just that; its only a question of how long before its a problem.

[Pentoth]

Again, I stress, your investment in books doesn't earn you immunity from DoJ ever publishing a new edition. Everyone invests in products that eventually become obsolete whether it's a gallon of milk, a video card, or an analog television.

The argument that you some how deserve to have DoJ never upgrade their game system because of how much money you've spent is, as I've written elsewhere, not a valid argument.

Again I stress I don't blame DOJ for publishing a new edition. With that much money invested I just won't follow.

[Pentoth]

You've obviously never tried getting parts for an older car. They do just that; its only a question of how long before its a problem.

Well my father gets parts quite easily for his 1933 Chevrolet. GM still carry many of the parts. He just has to order them. What they can't do their is someone out there who can. It may cost him more but the car is from 1933. Oddly enough it runs smoother than my new Grand Am I complained to the salesman about that actually and he looked at me and smiled. He has known my father for many years and he knew I wasn't exaggerating.

[tiger]

<Notice that they first 3 books on tap for the 6th Ed. are the core rules, the Martial Arts supplement, and the Champions genre book?>

This is what worries some people, now I have to re-buy books I already have.

I currently play 40Km which comes out with a new edition every 2-4 years, then new codexs follow. So your constantly re-buying the rulebooks and the other books as the "update" them. Many other gaming companies use the exact same model. So anytime there is talk of a new edition of the rulebook the nightmares start coming.

Now having said all that, it's all going to depend on what changes Steve and the gang decide to do to the system. It will also depend on what they decide to do as a company as far as updating books and such.

Hero system has been around for along time now and while they did make some changes to the system with Fred, there are those who feel other changes could/should be done. So while the necessity of a new edition can be seen, it will be the action taken by DOJ in the end that will determine rather or not this is a good or bad thing.

[GloryFox]

One of their plans as announced at Dundracon was for at least the core 6th edition books to be printed in color. I'm pretty lukewarm on that one myself, mostly due to the fact that the glossy paper that is all but required to do color printing feels like crap to my hands. But we'll see how it turns out.

I don't know if you have seen the Character Creation Handbook but it is very classy. When I handed out the 6 copies I purchased on Sunday my Son and his friends were very excited about making characters. The entire book is black and white very polished and professional looking. Something you can leave in the dorm room and not be worried about for appearance about how dorky you look. I had that issues in college during 4th edition. I always figured that people would not play because the cover was dorky looking. I'll be disappointed if the final product is not in a black and white format, similar to the CCH, as the CCH just looks so much more mature.

I'm still very EMO over the situation but I'll survive. I'll make my bulk purchases now and use 5th ed Revised rules for the next 10-12 years then I'll look into weather or not I want 7th edition. 5 to 8 year lifespans seem to be the norm now for game systems. Unless the peasants revolt and the game company closes. Hey if that happens I'll still have a great game system to play with.

[Enforcer84]

I am, pretty much. Most of the proposed changes are not going far enough, for my tastes.

Regardless: Change is good.
So go find another game and stick a HEX Man on the cover.

[Enforcer84]

No offense but the car analogy is hardly apropos. Last time I checked, most people didn't need to take out a loan to buy a HERO core rule book nor do they need to pay for insurance, regular fill-ups, or oil changes and other maintenance. Nor does it cost $12,000 or more to get into HERO even if a lot of people are crying out that it will cost them precisely that much to switch to 6th edition.
Well, I've spent a couple grand on 5th Edition. It's not a car investment but it is an investment. So it is an apropos analogy.:)

Not wanting to buy every book again is a legitimate concern.



Again, I stress, your investment in books doesn't earn you immunity from DoJ ever publishing a new edition. Everyone invests in products that eventually become obsolete whether it's a gallon of milk, a video card, or an analog television.

The argument that you some how deserve to have DoJ never upgrade their game system because of how much money you've spent is, as I've written elsewhere, not a valid argument.
I don't see anyone demanding HERO stand still. I do see people saying, "Hey, good luck with your new edition, there's a good chance I won't be buying it." And some people find it a little sad that their favorite game is moving on.

You're certainly allowed your opinion but so are they and checking the title, this is the thread for them to lament in. Thanks for your concern though.

[nexus]

Again, I stress, your investment in books doesn't earn you immunity from DoJ ever publishing a new edition.

And no one is saying that. They're saying they have no interest in laying out that much money again (or at least not from what they've seen). DOJ has the right to publish a new edition whenever they feel like. The customers are not obligated to buy it. The freedom goes both ways.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Not wanting to buy every book again is a legitimate concern.Sure it is. (But, y'know, welcome to the world of RPG gaming. ;))

But what makes you think they're going to publish "every book again?" I.C.E. published 54 books for 4E; to date, DOJ has published only 9 books that can reasonably be called 5E-remakes of books from 4E.

I suppose there might be more in 6E, since DOJ has published more books for 5E than I.C.E. did for 4E, but I wouldn't imagine it would be a lot more. So they wouldn't even be hoping that you'd buy "every book again;" at most, they'd be hoping you'd buy the updated versions of a few core books. And of course, they will be updated versions of them... there will be new material in them, not just reprints with 6E mechanics swapped in. I'm sure DOJ has every intention of making 6E books worthwhile purchases on their own merits.

I don't see anyone demanding HERO stand still. I do see people saying, "Hey, good luck with your new edition, there's a good chance I won't be buying it." And some people find it a little sad that their favorite game is moving on.

You're certainly allowed your opinion but so are they
Granted. But what puzzles me is how people can even have a strong opinion on the likelihood of buying it/not buying it, when it's still 18 months away, and virtually nothing about it has been solidly decided yet. Presumably, they're reacting to the very concept of a 6th Edition's existence. But that reaction doesn't make sense to me.

I mean, Champions 3rd edition was my favorite game when 4th Edition was announced, but I didn't automatically assume 4E was going to be a bad thing. Then 4E was my favorite game when 5th Edition was announced, but I didn't automatically assume 5E was going to be a bad thing. And neither were. 4E replaced 3E as my favorite game, and 5E replaced 4E as my favorite game.

So I don't grok why someone would assume that 6E will be a bad thing. I suppose it's possible. But I think (given past history) that it's more likely (at least for me) that 6E will replace 5E as my favorite game.

Or to put it all another way...

If you like 5E a lot, that means you like what DOJ did with it. Therefore, why assume you won't like what they'd do with 6E? :think:

[nexus]

Sure it is. (But, y'know, welcome to the world of RPG gaming. ;))

But what makes you think they're going to publish "every book again?" I.C.E. published 54 books for 4E; to date, DOJ has published only 9 books that can reasonably be called 5E-remakes of books from 4E.

I suppose there might be more in 6E, since DOJ has published more books for 5E than I.C.E. did for 4E, but I wouldn't imagine it would be a lot more. So they wouldn't even be hoping that you'd buy "every book again;" at most, they'd be hoping you'd buy the updated versions of a few core books. And of course, they will be updated versions of them... there will be new material in them, not just reprints with 6E mechanics swapped in. I'm sure DOJ has every intention of making 6E books worthwhile purchases on their own merits.

Granted. But what puzzles me is how people can even have a strong opinion on the likelihood of buying it/not buying it, when it's still 18 months away, and virtually nothing about it has been solidly decided yet. Presumably, they're reacting to the very concept of a 6th Edition's existence. But that reaction doesn't make sense to me.

I mean, Champions 3rd edition was my favorite game when 4th Edition was announced, but I didn't automatically assume 4E was going to be a bad thing. Then 4E was my favorite game when 5th Edition was announced, but I didn't automatically assume 5E was going to be a bad thing. And neither were. 4E replaced 3E as my favorite game, and 5E replaced 4E as my favorite game.

So I don't grok why someone would assume that 6E will be a bad thing. I suppose it's possible. But I think (given past history) that it's more likely (at least for me) that 6E will replace 5E as my favorite game.

Or to put it all another way...

If you like 5E a lot, that means you like what DOJ did with it. Therefore, why assume you won't like what they'd do with 6E? :think:

I can't speak for anyone else but I'm reacting to the proposed changes I've seen and the current drift of the discussions. I'm perfectly willing to see what comes of it but I don't like things as they stand now. The majority of the proposals I'm at best neutral and most of the ones I'm onboard with our cosmetic.

And I feel (obviously) that that's a valid opinion to hold.

I didn't like -everything- about 5ed, just the majority of things or many were so minor I didn't care. There is no promise or certainty that I will feel the same way about 6ed. If there is some radical shift in the design when it's released I'll be quite happy but right now, I don't see myself laying out the cash to purchase (and repurchase) the new books when I can stick with what I have currently if many of the proposed changes go through. If the 6ed changes thing beyond a certain extent even buying them for the purposes of conversion will be too much of a chore (IMO) to validate the expense.

[KawangaKid]

I mean, Champions 3rd edition was my favorite game when 4th Edition was announced, but I didn't automatically assume 4E was going to be a bad thing. Then 4E was my favorite game when 5th Edition was announced, but I didn't automatically assume 5E was going to be a bad thing. And neither were. 4E replaced 3E as my favorite game, and 5E replaced 4E as my favorite game.

So I don't grok why someone would assume that 6E will be a bad thing. I suppose it's possible. But I think (given past history) that it's more likely (at least for me) that 6E will replace 5E as my favorite game.

Or to put it all another way...

If you like 5E a lot, that means you like what DOJ did with it. Therefore, why assume you won't like what they'd do with 6E? :think:

Hi, this is a good question, one not so easily dismissed.

As stated, these are emotional responses so logic isn't necessarily a part of the reason why the reactions are like that. Then again, some folks have raised issues that, to my mind, are valid concerns.

Here are my takes on it:

1. "HERO is a victim of its own success." - we feel that at its core HERO is the best it's been in its history. A solid ruleset with lots of options, well supported with rules expansions, genre-specific material, and setting material. If there's a major change, we're afraid it will interrupt the momentum and go downhill. It's kind of like (but not directly analogous to) Operating System upgrades to a network of computers that have been working pretty good for a while now: we knew it was coming, we wish it wasn't so soon, we hope they improve it but don't change the things we like, and OH MY GOD are those the things they're thinking about changing?

2. "HERO has sold out and is just off to make a quick buck by reselling everything back to us." - when GURPS went from 3rd to 4th, it wasn't really a blip for me on my radar because I didn't play it and only got the source material anyway. When D&D went to 3E I liked it, bought a buncha stuff, and THEN they went to 3.5 too soon and changed everything, and now they're creating 4.0! We're all playing HERO (right? right? anyone?) and it seems to feel like more of the latter given the bad taste in the mouth of WOTC's moves. I guess it's a bit like rushing to support an alternative energy technology industry, being happy with the results, and then hearing changes that sound suspiciously like the opportunistic practices of the oil industry.

3. "HERO doesn't love me anymore." - this one's a bit more personal perhaps. Wasn't all the cash I sunk into my supplements and rulebooks enough for you to go on with 5th Ed Revised, is the possible tune going on in the heads of some folks (albeit horrendously exaggerated - hey I can exaggerate more!) or perhaps: "I've given you the best years of my life HERO and now you're leaving me for a younger fanbase! What about the children?"

I do understand your point, however, that the plans are still being hatched, that HERO's listening to all our concerns and at the same time has a business that they're trying to keep profitable and hopefully expand into a multi-million dollar empire that'll employ us all and we won't have to do anything else but game all day to provide for ourselves and our families.

Er, anyway - I guess my point is that we have some concerns that are valid (or at least we feel they are), and we basically want to express them to HERO so they know our concerns and can address them.

Not everything posted may be constructive (yet), but given time I think that everyone will be able to express their concerns more clearly, just as Steve and Co. have taken great pains to share as much of their plans with us as is legally sound.

Speaking for myself (I've already spoken for everyone else, why not me?), I have equal parts hope (for a fantastic new version of HERO that still feels like HERO and plays like HERO and attracts more players and I can brag and say I was playing back when the rulebooks wouldn't stop a Howitzer) and trepidation (basically for the reasons listed above, more or less) for the future of HERO.

[Pentoth]

Sure it is. (But, y'know, welcome to the world of RPG gaming. ;))

But what makes you think they're going to publish "every book again?" I.C.E. published 54 books for 4E; to date, DOJ has published only 9 books that can reasonably be called 5E-remakes of books from 4E.

I suppose there might be more in 6E, since DOJ has published more books for 5E than I.C.E. did for 4E, but I wouldn't imagine it would be a lot more. So they wouldn't even be hoping that you'd buy "every book again;" at most, they'd be hoping you'd buy the updated versions of a few core books. And of course, they will be updated versions of them... there will be new material in them, not just reprints with 6E mechanics swapped in. I'm sure DOJ has every intention of making 6E books worthwhile purchases on their own merits.

Granted. But what puzzles me is how people can even have a strong opinion on the likelihood of buying it/not buying it, when it's still 18 months away, and virtually nothing about it has been solidly decided yet. Presumably, they're reacting to the very concept of a 6th Edition's existence. But that reaction doesn't make sense to me.

I mean, Champions 3rd edition was my favorite game when 4th Edition was announced, but I didn't automatically assume 4E was going to be a bad thing. Then 4E was my favorite game when 5th Edition was announced, but I didn't automatically assume 5E was going to be a bad thing. And neither were. 4E replaced 3E as my favorite game, and 5E replaced 4E as my favorite game.

So I don't grok why someone would assume that 6E will be a bad thing. I suppose it's possible. But I think (given past history) that it's more likely (at least for me) that 6E will replace 5E as my favorite game.

Or to put it all another way...

If you like 5E a lot, that means you like what DOJ did with it. Therefore, why assume you won't like what they'd do with 6E? :think:

I don't have the cash to sink into a new set of books. I don't have the space for a complete new set of those books. Why do people find that so hard to understand? I have never said DOJ shouldn't move on I just said I wasn't happy with it.

[Enforcer84]

Sure it is. (But, y'know, welcome to the world of RPG gaming. ;))

But what makes you think they're going to publish "every book again?" I.C.E. published 54 books for 4E; to date, DOJ has published only 9 books that can reasonably be called 5E-remakes of books from 4E.

I suppose there might be more in 6E, since DOJ has published more books for 5E than I.C.E. did for 4E, but I wouldn't imagine it would be a lot more. So they wouldn't even be hoping that you'd buy "every book again;" at most, they'd be hoping you'd buy the updated versions of a few core books. And of course, they will be updated versions of them... there will be new material in them, not just reprints with 6E mechanics swapped in. I'm sure DOJ has every intention of making 6E books worthwhile purchases on their own merits.

Granted. But what puzzles me is how people can even have a strong opinion on the likelihood of buying it/not buying it, when it's still 18 months away, and virtually nothing about it has been solidly decided yet. Presumably, they're reacting to the very concept of a 6th Edition's existence. But that reaction doesn't make sense to me.

I mean, Champions 3rd edition was my favorite game when 4th Edition was announced, but I didn't automatically assume 4E was going to be a bad thing. Then 4E was my favorite game when 5th Edition was announced, but I didn't automatically assume 5E was going to be a bad thing. And neither were. 4E replaced 3E as my favorite game, and 5E replaced 4E as my favorite game.

So I don't grok why someone would assume that 6E will be a bad thing. I suppose it's possible. But I think (given past history) that it's more likely (at least for me) that 6E will replace 5E as my favorite game.

Or to put it all another way...

If you like 5E a lot, that means you like what DOJ did with it. Therefore, why assume you won't like what they'd do with 6E? :think:
You have a gigantic collection of HERO stuff, right? The changes between 2-5th edition have been rather gradual and you can open Enemies and say, wow sure these guys could use a few skills, talents, or perks, and this power might work better....but it's the same game.


Change, and news of change affects us all in different ways. We hear gaming buzzwords like Granularity and Simplicity and hey we're getting rid of characteristics, and changing the term "Powers" to "Feats" or "Abilities of An Extraordinary Nature" or what else. We're changing SPD from 12 segments to 6, COM is superfluous, and we are gonna toss INT because no one knows what it does...

I think the majority of the people who are wringing their hands are looking at 6e as possibly a different game. Yes its 18 months away, but this forum in its entirety can be a bit of a shock. I've stated that I'm concerned but cautiously optimistic. But at this point most of the discussion has me wondering why bother calling this new game HERO? Every single mechanic is being debated.
I trust DOJ but still feel a bit anxious with all the changes being discussed.

[KawangaKid]

I don't have the cash to sink into a new set of books. I don't have the space for a complete new set of those books. Why do people find that so hard to understand? I have never said DOJ shouldn't move on I just said I wasn't happy with it.

I feel your pain.

I've been thinking though - if the changes aren't THAT substantial from the current edition - then I won't have to buy ALL the new books.

Sadly, if they released all the books with full-color hi-resolution hi-quality art (even without any rules changes), I might buy them again. Or I might finance my habit by selling my older versions on eBay.

[Enforcer84]

I feel your pain.

I've been thinking though - if the changes aren't THAT substantial from the current edition - then I won't have to buy ALL the new books.

Sadly, if they released all the books with full-color hi-resolution hi-quality art (even without any rules changes), I might buy them again. Or I might finance my habit by selling my older versions on eBay.
Exactly.

....I used to be a collector...but now I lack the space...ofcourse I'll probably make it.


One thing that might send me over the edge though? If they reboot the Champions Universe. What I mean is, if in Champions 6e we have a starting level superteam called the Champions and Pulsar and Armadillo are returned to their pre "News of the World" form...I want the official CU to go forward. (and if you don't believe me, see my rants on comic books :))

[Derek Hiemforth]

I think the majority of the people who are wringing their hands are looking at 6e as possibly a different game. Yes its 18 months away, but this forum in its entirety can be a bit of a shock. I've stated that I'm concerned but cautiously optimistic. But at this point most of the discussion has me wondering why bother calling this new game HERO? Every single mechanic is being debated.
I trust DOJ but still feel a bit anxious with all the changes being discussed.I hear what you're saying, but if you go back and look at the "Steve's Thoughts" sections, you'll find that the clear majority of the time, when he asks "Should X be changed?" his own current thinking is "No." :)

I'm purely speculating here, because it's still a long way off, and because I wouldn't presume to claim I knew Steve's mind. But my hunch is that 6E might turn out to be more of a change over 5E than 5E was over 4E, but probably not as much of a change as 4E was over 3E. My guess is that there will be a relatively small number of major changes, and a larger number of minor changes, options, and additions.

Remember, this whole forum is just in the "flinging mud at the wall to see what sticks" stage. If more than a couple out of every 100 ideas tossed out here actually makes it to the book, I'll be shocked. We're in the sound and fury stage. And while it might not signify absolutely nothing, it probably doesn't signify very much. :winkgrin:

[Derek Hiemforth]

I don't have the cash to sink into a new set of books. I don't have the space for a complete new set of those books. Why do people find that so hard to understand?My puzzlement isn't over those who lack money to buy books or space to store them. I'm sorry I wasn't clear about that.

My puzzlement is over those who object to the concept of 6E on the grounds that they like 5E. For example, I like Civilization IV just fine. But that doesn't mean I'd get upset if they made a Civilization V. Maybe it'll be even better! If so, I'll buy it. If not, I'll stick with Civ IV. :)

[steamteck]

My puzzlement isn't over those who lack money to buy books or space to store them. I'm sorry I wasn't clear about that.

My puzzlement is over those who object to the concept of 6E on the grounds that they like 5E. For example, I like Civilization IV just fine. But that doesn't mean I'd get upset if they made a Civilization V. Maybe it'll be even better! If so, I'll buy it. If not, I'll stick with Civ IV. :)


To be honest some of Steve's ideas like getting rid of COM or maybe even figured characteristics I dislike and are radical enough to make me uncomfortable right there and nothing floated as idea so far improves things enough to even remotely make up for those losses. I know its not a done deal but it feels like our favorite game could very very easily turn into something we no longer like. I don't see why the concept of turning something you like into something you don't like bothering puzzles you. Good lord, I wish they'd never made the 2nd trilogy of Star Wars. Now officially one of my favorite stories is tied to this utter crap and everyone loves to bring it up or compare or try to convince or show their bad taste by saying how wonderful it is.:idjit:

You're right I don't have to buy or upgrade but it certainly will split the community if significant old timers are left behind. It'd be sad not to be part of the active community anymore but seems like many of the best and brightest would be in my same boat.

[CourtFool]

If you do not have the money to spend on a new edition, did you have the money to spend on endless supplements of the current edition? If you are not going to spend your money on the company’s product, why should they continue to try and target you with their product?

I hear people, and this goes for The Game Which Shall Not Be Mentioned 4e as well, argue that the company will need to make up for all of the old timers with new timers with the change. I do not think that is accurate. The company will need to make up for all of the old timers who currently buy all of the supplements with old timers and new timers who will buy the core books.

Do I want to drop $50 for two new books? Not really. But every (reasonable) company tries to improve sales through trying to improve their product. GM does put out new cars every year. No, you do not have to buy one every one.

If you set your shield down for a minute and consider DOJ is not personally attacking you, can you really blame them for trying, what they believe, to improve their product and improve sales?

I am sorry if The Ultimate Bikini-clad, Big Gun Toting Chick is not going to generate enough sales for DOJ to release it. It was my most anticipated supplement as well. For DOJ to remain viable, they have to appeal to a broader audience.

Am I suggesting you jump on the ‘Yay 6th’ bandwagon? Not at all. If you comb carefully through my posts, you will see I am skeptical. I am not running in circles flailing my arms screaming, “Steve Long hates me!”

If I like 6th when it comes out, great. If I don’t, thanks for the ride, DOJ. Sorry to part ways. Best of luck. No hard feelings. I think that is a far cry from, “If you don’t make the changes I want then I am taking my toys and playing somewhere else.”

Change is scary, but don’t let fear control you. You decide how you respond. Make sure it is the best choice.

[steamteck]

I'll happily drop $50+ bucks if he give me a better product but unless they shelve some of even Steve's ideas and come up with something better than cosmetic improvements while giving me basically deal breaking changes I'm not there . What is a big problem with expressing this opinion I don't understand
There a lot of ranting against the"If you don’t make the changes I want then I am taking my toys and playing somewhere else.” but frankly I've seen the anti-rant at least a dozen times more than its actually been said. And what has been siad is way different than that. Frankly a business needs to know what changes will lose customers and which will gain them. if I say who "that's cool" but three other people say "yuck! not for me "that's important information not somehow morally inferior or alarmist.


if we're talking about new features the powers that be really need to know what the current group thinks need changing and what to change would turn them away. That's why they're asking for our input. this thread is to let all the emotional responses out anyway so they don't clutter the important stuff.

[CourtFool]

I am the last one to tell anyone they are not entitled to their opinion or expression thereof.

[nexus]

Am I suggesting you jump on the ‘Yay 6th’ bandwagon? Not at all. If you comb carefully through my posts, you will see I am skeptical. I am not running in circles flailing my arms screaming, “Steve Long hates me!”


While its fun to undermine people you don't agree with by painting a clown face on them who and how many people are actually doing this?

[CourtFool]

While its fun to undermine people you don't agree with by painting a clown face on them who and how many people are actually doing this?

No one.

[nexus]

No one.

All I'm saying is that kind of hyperbole, even meant in fun, tends to cause more strife than it prevent in my experience. People get ticked off, feel the need to reciprocate and communication gets lost in the ensuing screeching and poop flinging.

[Paragon]

Well my father gets parts quite easily for his 1933 Chevrolet. GM still carry many of the parts. He just has to order them. What they can't do their is someone out there who can. It may cost him more but the car is from 1933. Oddly enough it runs smoother than my new Grand Am I complained to the salesman about that actually and he looked at me and smiled. He has known my father for many years and he knew I wasn't exaggerating.

Sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't. There are parts for the 1984 Oldsmobile that is our alternate car that are getting progressively harder to find, and you certainly can't find from the manufacturer.

As a parallel to aftermarket parts, however, I have to note there are any number of games that new material still comes out for, and not all of it is bad material; its just not from a formal publisher. So I think that if aftermarket parts are a good parallel in cars, so are materials that don't originate from a publisher that is no longer "supporting" it.

[Paragon]

Honestly, I think there's two sides to this, one more legitimate than the other; and they pretty much parallel every reaction to a new edition I've seen in the fandom of any game system at all:

1. "They may be going places I don't want to go." I think this is the more legitimate of the two, but is also a crippling thing to avoid for a designer. Its legitimate because in the end, people don't play Game X because its called "Game X"; they play it because it has certain traits they find desirable in a game system, and if those traits change, its not the game system they wanted, no matter what its called. And which of those traits is important varies from person to person. I"m not a fan of the idea of ditching figured characteristics for example, even though I understand it simplifies some mechanical problems with the system considerably.

2. "I'm not interested in buying all this stuff again." This is a bit less legitimate, though not entirely so; its certainly always legitimate to decide what you are and aren't willing to spend money on, and I want to make it clear that many of the people who've said this have not said that's a good reason for a new edition not to occur. That said, I think there's always an undercurrent, sometimes subtle, sometimes not so subtle, that the company involved is somehow betraying the fanbase, or at least that part of it that feels this way, when they essentially stop directly supporting the prior edition. This part is, I think, nonsense, and doesn't understand the realities of game creation and manufacturing, mixed with a certain amount of unreasonable sense of entitlement.

[CourtFool]

All I'm saying is that kind of hyperbole, even meant in fun, tends to cause more strife than it prevent in my experience.

You are absolutely right and I accept responsibility for employing said tactic.

I think communication is already lost, though. Not specifically between you and I, just in general. I should have realized discussion about a new edition of a well loved RPG would be akin to discussions about politics and religion. I should have been smart enough to keep my snout out of them.

[steamteck]

I think communication is already lost, though. Not specifically between you and I, just in general. I should have realized discussion about a new edition of a well loved RPG would be akin to discussions about politics and religion. I should have been smart enough to keep my snout out of them.

I think you may be right in some instances. I'm getting very tired of being told I haven't explained anything or have no idea. Tell me you think its a bad idea.tell me I'm wrong Even get mad at me for suggesting it but don't tell me I said nothing. Don't tell me I said gibberish when I check with my 10 year ( who plays HERO) if he understands my point and he says "yes'. Just "listen " or don't reply.:mad:

[Derek Hiemforth]

I think you may be right in some instances. I'm getting very tired of being told I haven't explained anything or have no idea. Tell me you think its a bad idea.tell me I'm wrong Even get mad at me for suggesting it but don't tell me I said nothing. Don't tell me I said gibberish when I check with my 10 year ( who plays HERO) if he understands my point and he says "yes'. Just "listen " or don't reply.:mad:In fairness, though, just because you explained it doesn't mean any given reader understood it. Perhaps they didn't, and are seeking to clarify. Your 10 year-old knows you better than we do, after all. ;)

It's inappropriate to accuse you of speaking gibberish, but a lot of people seem to have a bad habit of attributing traits to external things when they're actually talking about themselves. "That's gibberish" comes across very differently than "I don't understand what you mean," or even "That's gibberish to me." I think most people mean the latter, even if they're saying the former. :)

[CourtFool]

I think most people mean the latter, even if they're saying the former.

Stop talking gibberish!







That was pot stirring.

[Derek Hiemforth]

That was pot stirring.Watch it, you! I can give you positive Rep, you know! Howd'ya like THAT?! ;)

[Pentoth]

Honestly, I think there's two sides to this, one more legitimate than the other; and they pretty much parallel every reaction to a new edition I've seen in the fandom of any game system at all:

1. "They may be going places I don't want to go." I think this is the more legitimate of the two, but is also a crippling thing to avoid for a designer. Its legitimate because in the end, people don't play Game X because its called "Game X"; they play it because it has certain traits they find desirable in a game system, and if those traits change, its not the game system they wanted, no matter what its called. And which of those traits is important varies from person to person. I"m not a fan of the idea of ditching figured characteristics for example, even though I understand it simplifies some mechanical problems with the system considerably.

2. "I'm not interested in buying all this stuff again." This is a bit less legitimate, though not entirely so; its certainly always legitimate to decide what you are and aren't willing to spend money on, and I want to make it clear that many of the people who've said this have not said that's a good reason for a new edition not to occur. That said, I think there's always an undercurrent, sometimes subtle, sometimes not so subtle, that the company involved is somehow betraying the fanbase, or at least that part of it that feels this way, when they essentially stop directly supporting the prior edition. This part is, I think, nonsense, and doesn't understand the realities of game creation and manufacturing, mixed with a certain amount of unreasonable sense of entitlement.

Actually if it is a completely legitimate argument that a company wants to make more money it is an equally legitimate argument that people don't want to spend theirs. I however have no sense of entitlement. I just don't like the new edition coming. Most of the games I play are out of print so it's not like it's something new for me. I play KULT (Best horror RPG ever) and AD&D 2ed still. HERO is the only game I play that is still in print.

[archermoo]

I just don't like the new edition coming.

I'm curious: How do you know that already. I'm pretty sure Steve hasn't written it yet. How can you be so sure that you don't like something that doesn't yet exist?

[Pentoth]

I'm curious: How do you know that already. I'm pretty sure Steve hasn't written it yet. How can you be so sure that you don't like something that doesn't yet exist?

Well it works like this. If the system isn't that I don't want to purchase books I already have. I have UMA & Ninja Hero. I don't need a new Martial Arts book. I already have the Champions book. I don't need another.

If the system is that different I have spent a lot of money on the books I have and have no desire to purchase books that make them obsolete. I have no desire to "convert" them either.

I don't blame DOJ for going on. I just won't follow. Maybe I will return with a 7th edition release if I need it by then. Who knows.

[steamteck]

In fairness, though, just because you explained it doesn't mean any given reader understood it. Perhaps they didn't, and are seeking to clarify. Your 10 year-old knows you better than we do, after all. ;)

It's inappropriate to accuse you of speaking gibberish, but a lot of people seem to have a bad habit of attributing traits to external things when they're actually talking about themselves. "That's gibberish" comes across very differently than "I don't understand what you mean," or even "That's gibberish to me." I think most people mean the latter, even if they're saying the former. :)


I can understand people saying I'm unclear or disagree it just seems to go way beyond that. Just Emoing on the EMO thread because I'm frustrated. :ugly: He's a darn smart 10 year old too. Runs his own HERO champions campaign.:eek:

[Derek Hiemforth]

Well it works like this. If the system isn't that I don't want to purchase books I already have. I have UMA & Ninja Hero. I don't need a new Martial Arts book. I already have the Champions book. I don't need another.

If the system is that different I have spent a lot of money on the books I have and have no desire to purchase books that make them obsolete. I have no desire to "convert" them either.

I don't blame DOJ for going on. I just won't follow. Maybe I will return with a 7th edition release if I need it by then. Who knows.Not to beat a dead horse, but...

OK, so you don't "need" them. That's certainly something you can decide based on what you know today. If you're content with what you have, then you don't "need" something new.

But you seem to be making the leap from there to "I don't want them." That might also turn out to be true, but I don't see how you could possibly know that until you see what they are. You seem to be pre-assuming that it's impossible for them to make the product desirable to you, without even knowing what the new product will contain, what it will look like, etc.

To the various folks taking this stance, I have to wonder... do you apply this approach to everything in your life? Do you never buy anything unless (A) you lack something like it entirely, or (B) the one you have is unusable in some way? You never buy anything simply because it's better than what you have? (And before someone says that 6E won't be better than 5E, let me point out that you don't know that yet, because 6E doesn't exist yet.)

I mean, sure... sometimes you upgrade things because your current ones are broken. But sometimes you upgrade things just because the new ones are cooler. Or at least, I sometimes do. And if I think a new thing is cool enough to upgrade, that doesn't mean I was unhappy with the one I had. It just means the new one was enough cooler that I wanted it anyway. :)

So to me, looking at 5E and at 6E (when it's released) and deciding that you prefer to stick with 5E could be perfectly understandable. If DOJ wants you to buy 6E, it's their responsibility to make it cool enough to entice you to make the jump, and they either succeed at that or they don't.

But deciding in advance that it's impossible for 6E to be cool enough... I dunno. I don't get that. :)

[Pentoth]

Not to beat a dead horse, but...

OK, so you don't "need" them. That's certainly something you can decide based on what you know today. If you're content with what you have, then you don't "need" something new.

But you seem to be making the leap from there to "I don't want them." That might also turn out to be true, but I don't see how you could possibly know that until you see what they are. You seem to be pre-assuming that it's impossible for them to make the product desirable to you, without even knowing what the new product will contain, what it will look like, etc.

To the various folks taking this stance, I have to wonder... do you apply this approach to everything in your life? Do you never buy anything unless (A) you lack something like it entirely, or (B) the one you have is unusable in some way? You never buy anything simply because it's better than what you have? (And before someone says that 6E won't be better than 5E, let me point out that you don't know that yet, because 6E doesn't exist yet.)

I mean, sure... sometimes you upgrade things because your current ones are broken. But sometimes you upgrade things just because the new ones are cooler. Or at least, I sometimes do. And if I think a new thing is cool enough to upgrade, that doesn't mean I was unhappy with the one I had. It just means the new one was enough cooler that I wanted it anyway. :)

So to me, looking at 5E and at 6E (when it's released) and deciding that you prefer to stick with 5E could be perfectly understandable. If DOJ wants you to buy 6E, it's their responsibility to make it cool enough to entice you to make the jump, and they either succeed at that or they don't.

But deciding in advance that it's impossible for 6E to be cool enough... I dunno. I don't get that. :)

I actually do tend to upgrade to things only if I need something. That being said I did buy a Blu Ray player even though may DVD player works fine. If it didn't upconvert my old DVD's I wouldn't have made the purchase though.

[nexus]

I mean, sure... sometimes you upgrade things because your current ones are broken. But sometimes you upgrade things just because the new ones are cooler. Or at least, I sometimes do. And if I think a new thing is cool enough to upgrade, that doesn't mean I was unhappy with the one I had. It just means the new one was enough cooler that I wanted it anyway. :)



Actually, I rarely do upgrade because something is "cooler" than what I have. I don't have that spare income. I upgrade because some provides enough superior performance that it's worth the additional expense or it's predecessor is broken or obsolete (or so close to being that way that its a moot point). I've been burned too many times buying the "cool" new things only to it be worse the expected, a passing fad, a glorified beta test or whatever.

I'm not claiming I'm the typical gamer but I haven't had the disposal income for impulse gaming buys for awhile.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Okay, perhaps "cooler" wasn't the best word to choose. My point was simply that new purchases aren't always driven solely by "need." Sometimes they're driven by "want" (defined in whatever terms might make you "want" something). So DOJ's task now is to make 6E good enough (or cool enough, or improved enough, or what have you) to make you want to upgrade.

I fully realize (and I'm certain they do too) that --no matter what they publish -- they're unlikely to succeed in that goal for absolutely everyone. Some will decide 6E isn't worth the upgrade. But I think you can only gauge whether or not 6E is worth the upgrade after it actually exists. :)

[Pentoth]

Okay, perhaps "cooler" wasn't the best word to choose. My point was simply that new purchases aren't always driven solely by "need." Sometimes they're driven by "want" (defined in whatever terms might make you "want" something). So DOJ's task now is to make 6E good enough (or cool enough, or improved enough, or what have you) to make you want to upgrade.

I fully realize (and I'm certain they do too) that --no matter what they publish -- they're unlikely to succeed in that goal for absolutely everyone. Some will decide 6E isn't worth the upgrade. But I think you can only gauge whether or not 6E is worth the upgrade after it actually exists. :)

I realize that the whole idea of purchasing a game in general is a want. When my finances (and priorities) were different I was able to amass over 2,000 dollars worth of HERO books. Now my 16 month old son is my priority (as he should be) For me to go out and replace an old system with a new one because it is "cooler" would be incredibly irresponsible given the books I have are perfectly good. Since I have a little one I don't have time to convert old books to new one. I just want to have fun and play. I have neither said DOJ going to 6th was bad for them nor have I said I wish them ill. I have only said on a personal note I wasn't happy about the decision and that I won't follow them into the future. That seems like a reasonable stance to me. They are doing what is best for them. I am doing what is best for me. Why is that so wrong in people's eyes? Why must I give it a chance? It's not in my best interest to.

[nexus]

Okay, perhaps "cooler" wasn't the best word to choose. My point was simply that new purchases aren't always driven solely by "need." Sometimes they're driven by "want" (defined in whatever terms might make you "want" something). So DOJ's task now is to make 6E good enough (or cool enough, or improved enough, or what have you) to make you want to upgrade.

I fully realize (and I'm certain they do too) that --no matter what they publish -- they're unlikely to succeed in that goal for absolutely everyone. Some will decide 6E isn't worth the upgrade. But I think you can only gauge whether or not 6E is worth the upgrade after it actually exists. :)

I've admitted there is a possibility I'll be pleasantly surprised at the moment it doesn't seem likely though. Even so I don't bear any ill will towards DOJ. They're doing what they feel is good for the company and I hope 6th Edition is a roaring success with or without me on board.

[aylwin13]

To the various folks taking this stance, I have to wonder... do you apply this approach to everything in your life? Do you never buy anything unless (A) you lack something like it entirely, or (B) the one you have is unusable in some way? You never buy anything simply because it's better than what you have? (And before someone says that 6E won't be better than 5E, let me point out that you don't know that yet, because 6E doesn't exist yet.)

I mean, sure... sometimes you upgrade things because your current ones are broken. But sometimes you upgrade things just because the new ones are cooler. Or at least, I sometimes do. And if I think a new thing is cool enough to upgrade, that doesn't mean I was unhappy with the one I had. It just means the new one was enough cooler that I wanted it anyway. :)
I very seldom upgrade anything unless I have to (obsolete, broken, etc.) Even then, I usually won't buy the new item right away. Brand new (on the market) items tend to have bugs, and are way too expensive. I'll wait until they've been around for a while and the price has come down some. I usually don't need that something immediately anyway. The Razr phone had been around a few years before I bought one. There was a discount on it as well.

Knowing the general cost of books nowadays, I wouldn't plan on buying the 6th ed core books until there was a price cut of 25-30%. Odds are that won't happen. Odds are I won't be buying them.

[Marcus Impudite]

If I had to judge solely based on what I've seen here thus far, I'm probably just going to stick with the 5th Ed stuff I already have in my collection, purchase maybe a few more 5th Ed books if I can get them on the cheap, and pay 6e no mind either way. Too many of the proposed changes would be deal-breakers for me plus I don't see myself having the expendable $$$ for buying all new stuff in the perceivable future.

[lemming]

Come to think of it, in some ways I haven't moved past 3rd edition, but I still buy the new stuff, cause I can still use it.

[Toadmaster]

There are a number of reasons I'm concerned, #1 is many of the things Steve has said he is strongly considering are things I don't like (decoupling stats is a huge issue to me).

Also in the past when Steve has made decisions, I usually find myself opposed, I'd say I've been against 90% of the rules changes he has made if I had an opinion (tere were some I didn't care about). Thats not to say I'm right and he is wrong but his vision of HERO is not the same as mine. He very much lets his personal play style impact what gets written. His right since he bought the game but not the best choice for a "universal" game, he has frequently made it clear certain genres are not his thing and he doesn't have a problem with taking the game further from those genres as that is not a strength of the game (in his opinion). Again not the best choice for a "universal" game system.

Finally he has said many times in the past he didn't see the need for a 6th ed, this combined with the hoopla of the announcement leads me to believe the gloves are off, and 6th ed will be a fully Steve Longed version of the game, it will resemble HERO but so do GURPS and CORPS. Considering the past I am not hopeful. I bet 6th will still have Paramedics listed as a skill too. :(

People keep saying DOJ knows what they are doing, trust them. Hmmm remember Dark Champions, the many fans saying the title is confusing? The fans saying the 4th ed version confused them and the passed it over thinking it was for Champions? Remember the confused gamers showing up on the boards saying, oh, Dark Champions is modern action? Then why does it have Champions in the name?
Remember Shades of Black? How many threads were devoted to what in the world were they thinking, great module and all but very narrow interest. It didn't work as a PDF and now its coming out in print? I thought it flopped in PDF?

DOJ is still afloat which is saying something, but they are far from perfect beings worthy of "trust me it will be fine".
Steve is a good writer, I have several of his non HERO games in addition to his HERO work so none of this is meant to disparage him, simply I don't feel where he thinks the game should go and where I want the game to go are the same.

I have noticed DOJ makes a lot of surveys and opens the forums for input of the fans, but it doesn't seem like a lot of this input actually makes it into the final product.

Doesn't anybody find the glibness of selling off the Champions name, a little disconcerting? I mean its Champions, it is the origin of the game. Not to say it wasn't a good buisness move but it seems pretty cold, like selling one of your kids and it doesn't sound like there was even a second thought. I don't even play Champions and it kind of bothers me.

These are not the actions of a person who is going to keep stuff basically the same. These are the actions of someone who is going to leave their mark on the game and make it his own. Again his right but not something to tell me the final product will be all sunshine and happiness.

Simply I don't see 6th being a minor change, if it is why get it, if it is a major change again why get it, pretty much I lose either way since even in the best case the next several years will be rehashes.

I wish DOJ well with their upcoming the RPG formerly known as HERO but unfortunately I think this is my stop coming up. I could be wrong but I don't think so.

[Pattern Ghost]

Oh, I'm sure there were second, third and fourth thoughts on selling the Champions IP. I seriously doubt if the decision was made lightly.

Besides, I'm pretty sure the folks at Cryptic are as big of Champions fans as the rest of us, so I don't think they're going to mangle up the property. (Stupid-looking Dr. Destroyer art notwithstanding. :p)

[steamteck]

Toadmaster and I agree on a number of things. I really don't like most of the changes Steve has suggested and nothing suggested will improve my personal gaming much.those that can like separating PD/Ed for vehicles I don't need another edition for. while others such decoupling characteristics and removing COM, changing the rolling mechanic I love would decrease my fun so more and more 6th edition is not interesting me.
I really want to have a "wow' but I dunno. 5th is working so perfectly for me and I've NEVER has another game system I didn't have to tinker with seriously to make it usable.

[steamteck]

Oh, I'm sure there were second, third and fourth thoughts on selling the Champions IP. I seriously doubt if the decision was made lightly.

Besides, I'm pretty sure the folks at Cryptic are as big of Champions fans as the rest of us, so I don't think they're going to mangle up the property. (Stupid-looking Dr. Destroyer art notwithstanding. :p)


Don't forget Defender with his jaw and neck unprotected.:help:

[Paragon]

Actually if it is a completely legitimate argument that a company wants to make more money it is an equally legitimate argument that people don't want to spend theirs. I however have no sense of entitlement. I



What's not legitimate is that people often don't just want to spend money; they don't want to be put in the situation where they feel they'll need to. I don't think in the case of hobby purchases that's a legitimate attitude.

[nexus]

There are a number of reasons I'm concerned, #1 is many of the things Steve has said he is strongly considering are things I don't like (decoupling stats is a huge issue to me).

Also in the past when Steve has made decisions, I usually find myself opposed, I'd say I've been against 90% of the rules changes he has made if I had an opinion (tere were some I didn't care about). Thats not to say I'm right and he is wrong but his vision of HERO is not the same as mine. He very much lets his personal play style impact what gets written. His right since he bought the game but not the best choice for a "universal" game, he has frequently made it clear certain genres are not his thing and he doesn't have a problem with taking the game further from those genres as that is not a strength of the game (in his opinion). Again not the best choice for a "universal" game system.

Finally he has said many times in the past he didn't see the need for a 6th ed, this combined with the hoopla of the announcement leads me to believe the gloves are off, and 6th ed will be a fully Steve Longed version of the game, it will resemble HERO but so do GURPS and CORPS. Considering the past I am not hopeful. I bet 6th will still have Paramedics listed as a skill too. :(

People keep saying DOJ knows what they are doing, trust them. Hmmm remember Dark Champions, the many fans saying the title is confusing? The fans saying the 4th ed version confused them and the passed it over thinking it was for Champions? Remember the confused gamers showing up on the boards saying, oh, Dark Champions is modern action? Then why does it have Champions in the name?
Remember Shades of Black? How many threads were devoted to what in the world were they thinking, great module and all but very narrow interest. It didn't work as a PDF and now its coming out in print? I thought it flopped in PDF?

DOJ is still afloat which is saying something, but they are far from perfect beings worthy of "trust me it will be fine".
Steve is a good writer, I have several of his non HERO games in addition to his HERO work so none of this is meant to disparage him, simply I don't feel where he thinks the game should go and where I want the game to go are the same.

I have noticed DOJ makes a lot of surveys and opens the forums for input of the fans, but it doesn't seem like a lot of this input actually makes it into the final product.

Doesn't anybody find the glibness of selling off the Champions name, a little disconcerting? I mean its Champions, it is the origin of the game. Not to say it wasn't a good buisness move but it seems pretty cold, like selling one of your kids and it doesn't sound like there was even a second thought. I don't even play Champions and it kind of bothers me.

These are not the actions of a person who is going to keep stuff basically the same. These are the actions of someone who is going to leave their mark on the game and make it his own. Again his right but not something to tell me the final product will be all sunshine and happiness.

Simply I don't see 6th being a minor change, if it is why get it, if it is a major change again why get it, pretty much I lose either way since even in the best case the next several years will be rehashes.

I wish DOJ well with their upcoming the RPG formerly known as HERO but unfortunately I think this is my stop coming up. I could be wrong but I don't think so.

I think you make allot of good points. I've disagreed with many of Steve Long's rulings and rules changes in the past so I can't just trust they'll do a good job.

[archermoo]

Doesn't anybody find the glibness of selling off the Champions name, a little disconcerting? I mean its Champions, it is the origin of the game. Not to say it wasn't a good buisness move but it seems pretty cold, like selling one of your kids and it doesn't sound like there was even a second thought. I don't even play Champions and it kind of bothers me.

Why do you think it was done without a second thought? Because they didn't announce it to everyone several months ago when Cryptic first approched them? That would've been the quickest way to kill the negotiations. They thought long and hard about it. Everyone in DoJ has poured blood and sweat into Champions and the HERO System for the last 7+ years. This wasn't a step they took lightly.


Simply I don't see 6th being a minor change, if it is why get it, if it is a major change again why get it, pretty much I lose either way since even in the best case the next several years will be rehashes.


Well, Steve has already stated several times that the next several years won't be rehashes, so no that isn't the best case.

[Chris Goodwin]

Everyone who is saying, in effect, "If they change _______ I'm out of here," well... the entire 6e forum is your chance to lobby against changing _______.

Everyone who is saying "I'm out of here," without seeing the finished product.... the thing hasn't even been written yet! You don't have to make any decisions right this minute....

But if there is a thing you don't want to see change, and you can give well thought out, reasoned arguments for not changing it, by all means do it. This is your chance!

[Opal]

I just have to say this. The impetus for many changes is to 'simplify,' 'streamline' or make the game more attractive to new players.

BUT IT'S GOING TO BE IN TWO FREAKING VOLUMES!

Let's face it, every edition of the game has had more stuff in it than the one before. Champions! was magazine-sized. 3rd was a chunky perfect-bound book. The BBB was huge, FRED was huge-er, and Revised huge-eriffic.

6th won't even fit in one binding.

[nexus]

Everyone who is saying, in effect, "If they change _______ I'm out of here," well... the entire 6e forum is your chance to lobby against changing _______.

Everyone who is saying "I'm out of here," without seeing the finished product.... the thing hasn't even been written yet! You don't have to make any decisions right this minute....


Some things are deal breakers for some of us.



But if there is a thing you don't want to see change, and you can give well thought out, reasoned arguments for not changing it, by all means do it. This is your chance!


Well, many people are "If X changes I won't be getting 6th edition is conditional. I don't think it's meant as a thread but more an indication of how strongly the person feels about that change. Ususally they present reasons but, if Steve Long isn't persuaded they won't be interested in Hero 6th. No one is obligated, DOJ has the right to change and produce whatever product they feel is required but the costumers have to the right not to buy it if it doesn't please them.

As Derek Heimfourth mentioned somewhere about 90 percent or so of what Long is "leaning towards doing/in favor of/whatever is probably going to go through" If you strongly don't like those particularly changes well...

[Chris Goodwin]

As Derek Heimfourth mentioned somewhere about 90 percent or so of what Long is "leaning towards doing/in favor of/whatever is probably going to go through" If you strongly don't like those particularly changes well...

Steve has said "I am almost certainly going to change these things.... unless I get good arguments against doing so." So come up with good arguments!

[nexus]

Steve has said "I am almost certainly going to change these things.... unless I get good arguments against doing so." So come up with good arguments!

As I said, that's what people (myself included) are trying to do that doesn't mean he's going to change his mind (good argument is subjective) and for some, if he doesn't the resulting product won't be something they want to buy. That's it. No threat, no sense of entitlement or blaming DOJ for making a 6th edition.

[steamteck]

Nexus sums up pretty much how I feel and see also. if I say something is a deal breaker its not a threat ( how can I threaten them I'm just one customer) its just saying unless something really really incredible is introduced I'm just not interested in HERO without that feature. I think that's something he should know about at least one long terms follower's feelings.
I like to think he's trying to make the best game he can and he should know where we have string feelings about what works and the "soul of HERO" I may think the worst is likely but I will hope for the best game ever and try to do my part in the debate.

[incrdbil]

I was really unhappy about the two boosk thing at first. Time and reflection has settled me about it. My ability to be happy with a huge, relatively art-lite book isnt the mainstream, and I shouldn't expect that to be repeated. I would rather see the game prosper than see every silly whim of mine catered to. So I hope they produce two, hiqh quality, visually appealing, tightly written rulebooks that sell well.

[Derek Hiemforth]

As Derek Heimfourth mentioned somewhere about 90 percent or so of what Long is "leaning towards doing/in favor of/whatever is probably going to go through" If you strongly don't like those particularly changes well...Hey, I'm just speculating. Don't put too much stock in that. Chris is absolutely right. If there are deal-breaker changes that you want or don't want made, explain cogently to Steve why you hold that position so strongly. If you can make a strong case for your position, you might sway his stance. If you can't make a strong case for your position, well... maybe that's a sign that your position isn't that strong. :)

[Vondy]

Since we're being emotional....

I am unhappy at how huge the rules have become. Very unhappy. I really don't understand why the book got as big as it did, let alone the need for two books. The only way I could fathom it would be if you had one book for mechanics (about 250 pages) and another book with examples and advice. It really doesn't need to be this huge. Yes, I understand "other systems" have more than one core book, but my issue isn't the number of books as much as the overall number of pages and intense verbosity that implies. I know newbies need the instruction, but I already understand the core mechanics and I'll figure it out. Hell, in the old days when you got a game they we tight and you had to figure it out for yourself. Some of those games people are so nostalgic over were 64 pages. If there was a hole, you plugged it. If you had a question, you reasoned out an answer - including hero. Agh! I like the sound of many of the changes, but its growing like the blob. We may have to flee to the arctic to save ourselves.

[Toadmaster]

Everyone who is saying, in effect, "If they change _______ I'm out of here," well... the entire 6e forum is your chance to lobby against changing _______.

Everyone who is saying "I'm out of here," without seeing the finished product.... the thing hasn't even been written yet! You don't have to make any decisions right this minute....

But if there is a thing you don't want to see change, and you can give well thought out, reasoned arguments for not changing it, by all means do it. This is your chance!

As Nexus and Steamteck have said, we are not saying DOJ can't change, just we don't like certain changes enough that it is unlikely we will continue with the system. Mine happens to be the characteristics which I feel is the heart of the game, big changes there will make HERO just another game for me. Others have their own pet items.

People keep saying well you can just use that as a house rule, yes, yes I can and if I'm going to house rule 6th back to 5th then why would I buy 6th? I haven't seen anybody saying I hate you Steve Long, I hope you live forever in the hell of the itch you can't scratch, no they are saying if you impliment these changes I will probably not be buying your game.

Personally what I find odd is why is the weight of the argument on staying as is, I would think given the long history of the game, it would be the changes that required the argument. It is very hard to argue that something isn't broken, because well it isn't broken. It should be easier to come up with it broken arguments, "we keep having this issue, and it really needs to be fixed", but I have yet to see a compeling argument in favor of change that is anything more than I like this way better, great I like my way better. HERO has had more than 20 years to work the real bugs out, so it shouldn't be a surprise that many of us feel there aren't any bugs left to work out.

Many of you seem to think that because some of us are saying I really am not happy to hear this we are saying we hate you, we hate you, we hate you. Well we are not saying that, we are saying bummer dude, good luck at your new job too bad its on the other side of the country.

Why are we all supposed to be happy about this?

[Toadmaster]

Hey, I'm just speculating. Don't put too much stock in that. Chris is absolutely right. If there are deal-breaker changes that you want or don't want made, explain cogently to Steve why you hold that position so strongly. If you can make a strong case for your position, you might sway his stance. If you can't make a strong case for your position, well... maybe that's a sign that your position isn't that strong. :)

That would be easier to do if he gave his reasoning, so far I haven't seen that. Just I am seriously considering this. It would help if he said I think I will change this because of xyz, if his reasons are the same as many being posted its simply I like it better this way and there is no arguing with that.

[Toadmaster]

I was really unhappy about the two boosk thing at first. Time and reflection has settled me about it. My ability to be happy with a huge, relatively art-lite book isnt the mainstream, and I shouldn't expect that to be repeated. I would rather see the game prosper than see every silly whim of mine catered to. So I hope they produce two, hiqh quality, visually appealing, tightly written rulebooks that sell well.

You are not alone, when GURPS 4th came out in a 2 book format a great many people were unhappy about it. That seems to be the style in the game industry right now, multiple full color books. Not saying DOJ is trying to be trendy but that seems to be the going logic of how to gain new players.

[nexus]

Hey, I'm just speculating. Don't put too much stock in that. Chris is absolutely right. If there are deal-breaker changes that you want or don't want made, explain cogently to Steve why you hold that position so strongly. If you can make a strong case for your position, you might sway his stance. If you can't make a strong case for your position, well... maybe that's a sign that your position isn't that strong. :)

Or we simply have two different viewpoints and must agree to disagree. It is possible for something like game mechanics and their quality to be subjective to be subjective. Steve Long is not always right just be virtue of being Steve Long. He can do whatever he wants to do with Hero System property. It's his after all. That doesn't mean I or anyone has to like it and agree with him.

And fine, I'll be blunt. Steve Long has never been, IME, a man that's easy to convince or get to change his mind. I will make argument I consider strong, he might not think there are so. If they're over deal breaking things then the deal will be broken. If or anyone else can convince him to change his mind on my deal breaker issues I'll give 6th Edition a shot.

To make an extreme hyperbolic example, what is Long had said he was strongly leaning towards cutting the Characteristics down to 4, tossing the Speed chart. switching to a class and level based character generation structure and a percentile based die mechanic with "to hit" and damage as one roll but he was open to discussion would the people that are saying "IF this occurs I'll have no interest in 6th edition still be "overreacting?"

Sure talk and try convince him otherwise. I'm not advocating stomping out the door but there's nothing wrong with saying what or is not a deal breaker. In a sense that IS an argument if a huge group of your devoted fanbase says that it can be a indicator. After all, for everyone person that speaks up there's usually a few more that are quiet about it.

Again, not a threat. I'm intelligent enough to know (and I think most people here are) that a few people leaving isn't going to collapse DOJ.

[Toadmaster]

Since we're being emotional....

I am unhappy at how huge the rules have become. Very unhappy. I really don't understand why the book got as big as it did, let alone the need for two books. The only way I could fathom it would be if you had one book for mechanics (about 250 pages) and another book with examples and advice. It really doesn't need to be this huge. Yes, I understand "other systems" have more than one core book, but my issue isn't the number of books as much as the overall number of pages and intense verbosity that implies. I know newbies need the instruction, but I already understand the core mechanics and I'll figure it out. Hell, in the old days when you got a game they we tight and you had to figure it out for yourself. Some of those games people are so nostalgic over were 64 pages. If there was a hole, you plugged it. If you had a question, you reasoned out an answer - including hero. Agh! I like the sound of many of the changes, but its growing like the blob. We may have to flee to the arctic to save ourselves.

I'm curious about this myself, in order to get players and get those people who have grown up hearing how difficult HERO is to give 6th ed a try I'm thinking a 128 page book is the way to go, a 256 page book might still do the job, but it comes out as the 2 tomes of 6th, I don't see many players picking it up. If I hadn't played HERO from the beginning I would have been a bit overwheled by the size of the 5th ed products. Easier to use rules won't be much help if the books are still scary looking.

[Vondy]

Personally what I find odd is why is the weight of the argument on staying as is, I would think given the long history of the game, it would be the changes that required the argument.

If you were around "back in the day" and experienced the long history of this game, then you know that the change from 3rd Ed. to 4th Ed. was significantly more dramatic than the change from 4th Ed. to 5th Ed. was. This game has changed in its life and it will continue to change. That doesn't mean those changes have all been good, or that there aren't people who use older versions of the system even today (I know one guy who uses 3rd and a few who use 4th), but not all change is bad and we haven't seen the final product yet. I am concerned about verbosity-length, and there are a few things I'm really iffy on, but I'm willing to withold judgement until I see it. As it is, I have a chop shop version of the game that doesn't line up to any version. So who knows, maybe it will have ideas I like.

[Marcus Impudite]

As it stands I'm more or less satisfied with 5th Ed as is. What few things I'm not crazy about I can easily fix via a houserule or two with out shelling out the cash for new books. Does that mean I'm completely against the idea of 6e? Not necessarily, but it's probably going to be a little while longer before I'm in the market for a new edition of the rules, always assuming things don't get FUBARed somewhere down the line (again, if I had to judge based on what I've seen thus far, I consider that a valid concern).

[Vondy]

I'm curious about this myself, in order to get players and get those people who have grown up hearing how difficult HERO is to give 6th ed a try I'm thinking a 128 page book is the way to go, a 256 page book might still do the job, but it comes out as the 2 tomes of 6th, I don't see many players picking it up. If I hadn't played HERO from the beginning I would have been a bit overwheled by the size of the 5th ed products. Easier to use rules won't be much help if the books are still scary looking.

The size issue, more than most of the proposed changes, may be the thing that causes me not to get a copy, or just buy the basic book.

[steamteck]

Hey, I'm just speculating. Don't put too much stock in that. Chris is absolutely right. If there are deal-breaker changes that you want or don't want made, explain cogently to Steve why you hold that position so strongly. If you can make a strong case for your position, you might sway his stance. If you can't make a strong case for your position, well... maybe that's a sign that your position isn't that strong. :)

Or minds are made up or opinions about basics differ. ( I have,of course, been flippin' brilliant but Steve was unconvinced about COM) :D


BTW, my 1981 edition of Champions is 56 pages!!!

[Toadmaster]

If you were around "back in the day" and experienced the long history of this game, then you know that the change from 3rd Ed. to 4th Ed. was significantly more dramatic than the change from 4th Ed. to 5th Ed. was. This game has changed in its life and it will continue to change. That doesn't mean those changes have all been good, or that there aren't people who use older versions of the system even today (I know one guy who uses 3rd and a few who use 4th), but not all change is bad and we haven't seen the final product yet. I am concerned about verbosity-length, and there are a few things I'm really iffy on, but I'm willing to withold judgement until I see it. As it is, I have a chop shop version of the game that doesn't line up to any version. So who knows, maybe it will have ideas I like.


I'm one of those who thinks some of the changes in 4th were a bad idea, although I did move onto 4th and then 5th because the weight of good changes vs bad mistakes was with 4th ed, still doesn't mean I liked all of them. So far I see the proposed changes for 6th being worse than the gains.

But my point was it seems as though staying with what is proven to work seems to be the side have to argue against change, it would seem to make more sense that the forces of change would be the ones having to argue for change.

If I invent a square wheel I have to show you it is better than the round one you currently have don't I? I don't say you will be getting a square wheel unless you can prove to me your round one is better.

Your comment about the chop shop version makes a lot of sense, I was just thinking that myself last night, if 6th comes out as something I can't use it takes away any reason not to go forward with my HERO 3-5, combining the best from 3rd ed with the 5th ed rules. The only thing stopping me up until know was remaining fully compatable with 5th ed, and if I don't move onto 6th ed that won't be an issue.

[misterdeath]

I'm curious about this myself, in order to get players and get those people who have grown up hearing how difficult HERO is to give 6th ed a try I'm thinking a 128 page book is the way to go, a 256 page book might still do the job, but it comes out as the 2 tomes of 6th, I don't see many players picking it up. If I hadn't played HERO from the beginning I would have been a bit overwheled by the size of the 5th ed products. Easier to use rules won't be much help if the books are still scary looking.

I'll back you up on that one. My newbie players looked at 5er and goggled. That's why I'm trying to get Sidekick for them all to have a copy of.

There definately needs to be a simpler, basic version out very quickly; or else the ruleset needs to be small enough not to scare the bejeebus out of the newbie players.

D

[misterdeath]

Emotionally,

I'm pretty stoked about this.

For the past, 27-28 years, Hero has been the game system everyone else has poached from. Gurps stole the point buy system. D&D3 resembled Hero as much as it did 2E (move and standard action, wonder where you got that, hmmm, Monte?).

People still compare Superhero games to Champions. "I find Mutants and Masterminds to be a more useful system than Hero/Champions." They don't use Heroes Unlimited for comparison.

And now, we have the chance to help make Hero the system for everyone to poach from for the next 25ish years.

We. All of us. We've been asked to participate. Sure, in the end Steve's going to do things the way he thinks best. But going from all the test reading I did back in the day, I don't feel that I won't have input.

Sure, there's going to be some things that I know I won't like the changes on. And there's things I want to see that I know there's no way in Hades that are going to make it through any sort of vetting process.

But I can try. I can participate in the discussions. That's good enough to lure me back from self-imposed exile.

D

[incrdbil]

Why are we all supposed to be happy about this?

Because its less stressful than being unhappy about something before you have a chance to look at it?

[Toadmaster]

Emotionally,

I'm pretty stoked about this.

For the past, 27-28 years, Hero has been the game system everyone else has poached from. Gurps stole the point buy system.

Actually I believe this was already present in The Fantasy Trip which was kind of GURPS really lite. HERO and GURPS have been feeding of each other from the beginning.

[Enforcer84]

I hear what you're saying, but if you go back and look at the "Steve's Thoughts" sections, you'll find that the clear majority of the time, when he asks "Should X be changed?" his own current thinking is "No." :)

I'm purely speculating here, because it's still a long way off, and because I wouldn't presume to claim I knew Steve's mind. But my hunch is that 6E might turn out to be more of a change over 5E than 5E was over 4E, but probably not as much of a change as 4E was over 3E. My guess is that there will be a relatively small number of major changes, and a larger number of minor changes, options, and additions.

Remember, this whole forum is just in the "flinging mud at the wall to see what sticks" stage. If more than a couple out of every 100 ideas tossed out here actually makes it to the book, I'll be shocked. We're in the sound and fury stage. And while it might not signify absolutely nothing, it probably doesn't signify very much. :winkgrin:
Oh sure, if I bother to read.(This is the EMOTIONAL RESPONSE THREAD BUDDY! :D) But when I see those Italicized questions and see people debating the merits of rolling rocks instead of dice and using Feats instead of powers I get a little trigger happy. ;)

[Enforcer84]

Emotionally,

I'm pretty stoked about this.

For the past, 27-28 years, Hero has been the game system everyone else has poached from. Gurps stole the point buy system. D&D3 resembled Hero as much as it did 2E (move and standard action, wonder where you got that, hmmm, Monte?).

People still compare Superhero games to Champions. "I find Mutants and Masterminds to be a more useful system than Hero/Champions." They don't use Heroes Unlimited for comparison.

And now, we have the chance to help make Hero the system for everyone to poach from for the next 25ish years.

We. All of us. We've been asked to participate. Sure, in the end Steve's going to do things the way he thinks best. But going from all the test reading I did back in the day, I don't feel that I won't have input.

Sure, there's going to be some things that I know I won't like the changes on. And there's things I want to see that I know there's no way in Hades that are going to make it through any sort of vetting process.

But I can try. I can participate in the discussions. That's good enough to lure me back from self-imposed exile.

D
Well then it was worth it. Welcome back!

[lemming]

Actually I believe this was already present in The Fantasy Trip which was kind of GURPS really lite. HERO and GURPS have been feeding of each other from the beginning.
Yep. Fantasy Trip (Or Melee & Wizard from the pocket game) were point based.

Heck, it's why I wanted to try Champions out since I was a player of TFT

[James Gillen]

Don't forget Defender with his jaw and neck unprotected.:help:

He looks an awful lot like Statesman to me... nice to see Steve isn't the only one with character issues. ;)

JG

[James Gillen]

People keep saying DOJ knows what they are doing, trust them. Hmmm remember Dark Champions, the many fans saying the title is confusing? The fans saying the 4th ed version confused them and the passed it over thinking it was for Champions? Remember the confused gamers showing up on the boards saying, oh, Dark Champions is modern action? Then why does it have Champions in the name?
Remember Shades of Black? How many threads were devoted to what in the world were they thinking, great module and all but very narrow interest. It didn't work as a PDF and now its coming out in print? I thought it flopped in PDF?

DOJ is still afloat which is saying something, but they are far from perfect beings worthy of "trust me it will be fine".
Steve is a good writer, I have several of his non HERO games in addition to his HERO work so none of this is meant to disparage him, simply I don't feel where he thinks the game should go and where I want the game to go are the same.

I have noticed DOJ makes a lot of surveys and opens the forums for input of the fans, but it doesn't seem like a lot of this input actually makes it into the final product.

Doesn't anybody find the glibness of selling off the Champions name, a little disconcerting? I mean its Champions, it is the origin of the game. Not to say it wasn't a good buisness move but it seems pretty cold, like selling one of your kids and it doesn't sound like there was even a second thought. I don't even play Champions and it kind of bothers me.

These are not the actions of a person who is going to keep stuff basically the same. These are the actions of someone who is going to leave their mark on the game and make it his own. Again his right but not something to tell me the final product will be all sunshine and happiness.

I'm always going to be grateful to DOJ for bringing HERO back in the first place, and I think some of their stuff is the best Hero Games ever produced, but I certainly don't think they're imperfect, I disagree vehemently with a few of their decisions, and I am... disconcerted, to say the least, that Hero doesn't own Champions anymore.

I'm actually more jazzed about the Champions Online game... if it's better than City of Heroes, that will be just what I'm looking for, and if it isn't, we still HAVE City of Heroes. And like I said elsewhere, if HERO 6th isn't worth replacing my HERO 5er, I still have HERO 5er. So if the decision blows up on DOJ, it blows up on them, not me.

I think a 6th Edition is needed and probably overdue. I agree with some of Steve's ideas and disagree with others. I also think that 5er works well enough if I don't like 6th. So again, it's up to the company to make something that really is better. It's not "if it doesn't go my way, I'm boycotting you!" I'm waiting to see what happens before I can make a proper judgment.

JG

[Vondy]

I'm always going to be grateful to DOJ for bringing HERO back in the first place, and I think some of their stuff is the best Hero Games ever produced, but I certainly don't think they're imperfect, I disagree vehemently with a few of their decisions, and I am... disconcerted, to say the least, that Hero doesn't own Champions anymore.

I'm actually more jazzed about the Champions Online game... if it's better than City of Heroes, that will be just what I'm looking for, and if it isn't, we still HAVE City of Heroes. And like I said elsewhere, if HERO 6th isn't worth replacing my HERO 5er, I still have HERO 5er. So if the decision blows up on DOJ, it blows up on them, not me.

I think a 6th Edition is needed and probably overdue. I agree with some of Steve's ideas and disagree with others. I also think that 5er works well enough if I don't like 6th. So again, it's up to the company to make something that really is better. It's not "if it doesn't go my way, I'm boycotting you!" I'm waiting to see what happens before I can make a proper judgment.

JG

Well... the game has had five editions in 27 years, which amounts to an average of one edition every 5+ years. On the other hand, we had a decade where the game was effectively dead, so one might argue we have had five editions in 17 years of active publishing, which amounts to one edition every 3+ years. DOJ published 5E six years ago, so yeah, we're do. And, in truth, I'd like to see what they do with it. 4th introduced some problems, but was, overall a necessary change. Its quite possible 6E with do the same, or be even better.

[Paragon]

Hey, I'm just speculating. Don't put too much stock in that. Chris is absolutely right. If there are deal-breaker changes that you want or don't want made, explain cogently to Steve why you hold that position so strongly. If you can make a strong case for your position, you might sway his stance. If you can't make a strong case for your position, well... maybe that's a sign that your position isn't that strong. :)

The problem is, as someone else said, we don't even know why he considers it a good idea in some cases; in others, making an argument turns on a matter of perception. Neither of those gives you too much ammo to work with in those cases.

As an example, I think the "no figured characteristics" crowd has a legitimate point--from where they sit. But its not where I sit, so how am I to make that argument? The fact I don't even know why Steve thinks so exactly doesn't help.

[archermoo]

The problem is, as someone else said, we don't even know why he considers it a good idea in some cases; in others, making an argument turns on a matter of perception. Neither of those gives you too much ammo to work with in those cases.

As an example, I think the "no figured characteristics" crowd has a legitimate point--from where they sit. But its not where I sit, so how am I to make that argument? The fact I don't even know why Steve thinks so exactly doesn't help.

Well, Steve did provide his basic reasoning for it in the initial post of the Characteristics thread:


Q: Should we get rid of the concept of Figured Characteristics, and just make all Characteristics straightforward purchases?

Steve’s Thoughts: I am strongly in favor of doing this and intend to implement this change unless I am persuaded otherwise by a particularly convincing argument. Figured Characteristics are not only contrary to the general spirit of the HERO system in my opinion, but they cause all sorts of mathematical problems and muddles. If we eliminate them and just use the standard starting values and costs (PD 2, ED 2, SPD 2, REC 4, END 20, STUN 20), then there’s no more worry about Limited SPD, no more concern about STR (or any other Characteristic) giving you too much benefit for its cost, no more No Figured Characteristics Limitation, and no need to dictate how many “Figureds” a character can sell back.

It may not be reasoning that you agree with, but it should at least provide a basis from which to try and convince him to change his mind.

[Chris Goodwin]

The problem is, as someone else said, we don't even know why he considers it a good idea in some cases; in others, making an argument turns on a matter of perception. Neither of those gives you too much ammo to work with in those cases.

If you know that you don't think it's a good idea, and can articulate why you don't think it's a good idea, why does it matter why Steve or anyone else considers it a good idea? It shouldn't be about what Steve or I or archermoo or Opal or anyone else thinks.

[archermoo]

If you know that you don't think it's a good idea, and can articulate why you don't think it's a good idea, why does it matter why Steve or anyone else considers it a good idea? It shouldn't be about what Steve or I or archermoo or Opal or anyone else thinks.

Well, if he's trying to convince Steve to not change something that Steve is inclined to change, it pretty much needs to be about what Steve thinks. Unless I missed something...

[Paragon]

It may not be reasoning that you agree with, but it should at least provide a basis from which to try and convince him to change his mind.

Fair enough, I'd misremembered how much he summarized there; but that gets into my second clause about "perception". I won't go into the conflicts there as I've gone over them in the Characteristics thread, but I think there's some real differences in how people see that that isn't particularly subject to rational argument.

[archermoo]

Fair enough, I'd misremembered how much he summarized there; but that gets into my second clause about "perception". I won't go into the conflicts there as I've gone over them in the Characteristics thread, but I think there's some real differences in how people see that that isn't particularly subject to rational argument.

You may be right.

I also think people easily lose track of something in the 6e threads (myself included): Granted we are all posting there and responding to each other, and so are arguing with each other. But the point isn't to convince each other. It is to present a clear argument that Steve will find convincing. The difficulty with that is that Steve doesn't have the time to respond to everything on the threads, so it can be hard to know if your argument is a good one from his point of view.

[Paragon]

Well, if he's trying to convince Steve to not change something that Steve is inclined to change, it pretty much needs to be about what Steve thinks. Unless I missed something...

Dead on. Talking to you or anyone else is just debating rules and philosophy, same as any other discussion of Hero; talking to Steve is potentially far more important if one cares at all about using 6e.

[Paragon]

If you know that you don't think it's a good idea, and can articulate why you don't think it's a good idea, why does it matter why Steve or anyone else considers it a good idea? It shouldn't be about what Steve or I or archermoo or Opal or anyone else thinks.

Because in the end, Steve gets to decide what goes in the rules, whether I think its a good idea or not, and can articulate it or not. If his perception of the basic issues is different than mine I can be as clear and articulate as I want, and it means, essentially, nothing.

Arguments turn on premises. If you can't change those premises, and they're different, the argument's strength is meaningless.

[Paragon]

You may be right.

I also think people easily lose track of something in the 6e threads (myself included): Granted we are all posting there and responding to each other, and so are arguing with each other. But the point isn't to convince each other. It is to present a clear argument that Steve will find convincing. The difficulty with that is that Steve doesn't have the time to respond to everything on the threads, so it can be hard to know if your argument is a good one from his point of view.

Right. I can argue with you all I want, but as I said, that's just two fans disagreeing about a game; its essentially meaningless outside itself. It has no bearing on whether what we're discussing changes Steve's mind or reinforces it, though, and there's no way to know.

[archermoo]

Right. I can argue with you all I want, but as I said, that's just two fans disagreeing about a game; its essentially meaningless outside itself. It has no bearing on whether what we're discussing changes Steve's mind or reinforces it, though, and there's no way to know.

Yup. Unfortunately he barely has the time to read the posts here, much less respond to them.

[Paragon]

Yup. Unfortunately he barely has the time to read the posts here, much less respond to them.

Sure. Heck, its not like even most of us have time to follow all the threads he started, and if he's going to get value out of the responses, that's probably what he has to do.

[Toadmaster]

Can anybody show me one example of Steve changing his mind? I can't find one and I've seen some good arguments over the years. The last time I recall a large push on the boards was to get him to reconsider the naming of Dark Champions, there were many good arguments for a change and almost all have been proven to be true (the name is confusing). There was never even a glimmer of doubt that the book would be named Dark Champions.

So based on the fairly slim reasoning given in the characteristics thread I have no hope that Com or figureds will survive. His reasoning is an opinion, he doesn't like figureds and apparently prefers GURPS approach to COM. I'd have a better chance getting Bone Daddy to vote for Bush, than us changing Steve's opinion.

I'm participating in the 6th discussions more for ideas rather than hoping to influence 6th ed. I've pretty much written it off but I might get some stuff to add to what ever hodgepodge of 3rd, 4th, 5th and perhaps stuff I can salvage from 6th that I end up using, I will definately be reverting back to 3rd ed for a good chunk of stuff.

[James Gillen]

Well... the game has had five editions in 27 years, which amounts to an average of one edition every 5+ years. On the other hand, we had a decade where the game was effectively dead, so one might argue we have had five editions in 17 years of active publishing, which amounts to one edition every 3+ years. DOJ published 5E six years ago, so yeah, we're do. And, in truth, I'd like to see what they do with it. 4th introduced some problems, but was, overall a necessary change. Its quite possible 6E with do the same, or be even better.

Quite.

jg

[Chris Goodwin]

Can anybody show me one example of Steve changing his mind? I can't find one and I've seen some good arguments over the years. The last time I recall a large push on the boards was to get him to reconsider the naming of Dark Champions, there were many good arguments for a change and almost all have been proven to be true (the name is confusing). There was never even a glimmer of doubt that the book would be named Dark Champions.

Sidekick wouldn't exist were it not for the ability of we the readership of the Hero boards to convince him it should.

That aside... it's not often that he has said to us, "I'm willing to be convinced."

[Chris Goodwin]

I thought of a thing. If there's a proposed change you really disagree with, try playtesting it. If you can give Steve actual play data on why it sucks, I'd bet money he's more likely to change his mind.

[steamteck]

I thought of a thing. If there's a proposed change you really disagree with, try playtesting it. If you can give Steve actual play data on why it sucks, I'd bet money he's more likely to change his mind.

Good point. I actually did mention I play tested the roll over mechanic in the discussion about that. Somethings would be hard to test without doing all the work of making the system.

[Paragon]

That aside... it's not often that he has said to us, "I'm willing to be convinced."

Yeah. For a lot of people there's a significant difference between "This is what I'm going to do" and them ignoring objections, and "This is what I'm thinking of. What do you think?"

[Lucius]

You know...I'm more ambivalent than I thought I would be.

I'm thinking "Great! We can get rid of a lot of imbalanced nonsense! That makes the game better!"

But....well....I've always exploited those weak points. Sure, STR is imbalanced, Killing Attacks are too, and that weird rule about limited STR and DEX with Extra Limbs is just giving away free points to anyone creative enough to find a justification for Extra Limbs for their character....and that's why I've used all these things. I'm going to miss being able to squirm my slimy munchkinized characters in through these loopholes. If what I hope is what comes to pass, those loopholes won't exist - I'll have to :nonp: Get What I Pay For and Pay For What I Get.


Hi. My name is Lucius, and I'm a munchkin.....

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary offers a bright side: Maybe all these issues WON'T be fixed, and I can still keep milking the system for free points and free power....now THAT just makes me want to cry.....

[Lucius]

My puzzlement isn't over those who lack money to buy books or space to store them. I'm sorry I wasn't clear about that.

My puzzlement is over those who object to the concept of 6E on the grounds that they like 5E. For example, I like Civilization IV just fine. But that doesn't mean I'd get upset if they made a Civilization V. Maybe it'll be even better! If so, I'll buy it. If not, I'll stick with Civ IV. :)

Yes...but I for example stopped at CIV II, Gold Edition.

Why? Because every CIV after that, as far as I've ever seen, lacks the very features I fell in love with. It changed, but from my point of view, did not improve; it's a change for the worse.

Naturally, there's a lot of fear that the new edition will be a change for the worse.

Perhaps as bad - there's the fear that they won't take the opportunity to make changes for the better that are long overdue.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary ruminates.

[Lucius]

It should be easier to come up with it broken arguments, "we keep having this issue, and it really needs to be fixed", but I have yet to see a compeling argument in favor of change that is anything more than I like this way better, great I like my way better. HERO has had more than 20 years to work the real bugs out, so it shouldn't be a surprise that many of us feel there aren't any bugs left to work out.


Err....I know this is the place for being emotional instead of logical, but....

Toadmaster, if you're saying you haven't seen the compelling arguments that some things are broken and need to be fixed, you must not be looking for them. Some of them come up so regularly that every time the issue is raised anew in a new thread, someone comes in and says "Is it that time again?" To which I have sometimes responded, "Yes, and it will keep being that time again, and again, until the problem is finally resolved." Well, this is our chance to finally solve those problems! And THAT's what makes me hopeful and happy.

Except the part of me that LIKES playing with broken, unbalanced game elements....

And the part that's worried that they WON'T seize this opportunity to correct the "bugs" that have lingered for two decades....

And the part that's worried that some changes may actually be for the worse....

Lucius Alexander

Hi. My name is Palindromedary but you can call me Pal. And I'm addicted to Lucius Alexander.....

[nexus]

I think what Toadmaster is saying is that he feels very few things in Hero are objectively broken (not none, nothing is perfect) and allot of the proposed changes are based on subjective ideas of what would be better. What would be a change for the better for say, buzz, probably wouldn't be a change for the better for me, for instance.

[archermoo]

Can anybody show me one example of Steve changing his mind? I can't find one and I've seen some good arguments over the years. The last time I recall a large push on the boards was to get him to reconsider the naming of Dark Champions, there were many good arguments for a change and almost all have been proven to be true (the name is confusing). There was never even a glimmer of doubt that the book would be named Dark Champions.

So based on the fairly slim reasoning given in the characteristics thread I have no hope that Com or figureds will survive. His reasoning is an opinion, he doesn't like figureds and apparently prefers GURPS approach to COM. I'd have a better chance getting Bone Daddy to vote for Bush, than us changing Steve's opinion.

I'm participating in the 6th discussions more for ideas rather than hoping to influence 6th ed. I've pretty much written it off but I might get some stuff to add to what ever hodgepodge of 3rd, 4th, 5th and perhaps stuff I can salvage from 6th that I end up using, I will definately be reverting back to 3rd ed for a good chunk of stuff.

Any and all changes in the rules between 5e and 5er are a result of Steve's mind getting changed. Well, at least the changes that actually constitute changes rather than just clarifications of things that were being misinterpreted. :)

In my experience with Steve he is a fairly reasonable but fairly opinionated dude. If he doesn't often change his mind once he has made it up it is because he already thought it out pretty completely before making his mind up in the first place. It doesn't mean that he isn't open to opposing arguments, but if the only ones that he sees are ones that he has already thought of and decided against it isn't likely he'll change his mind. Something Steve and I have in common. :D

I'd say things that he listed as "I'm going to do this unless I see a pretty convincing argument to the contrary" are ones that he probably won't change his mind on. Ones that he says something like "There’s some attraction to this idea" are probably the ones that he is most likely to be swayed by arguments on. And then you get back to the ones that he says "I’m strongly opposed to" about. Those I think fall back into the category of "not likely to be influenced". :)

I'm fortunate in that I agree with Steve on a lot of the things that he feels strongly about. And most of the things I disagree with him about aren't really that major to me.

[archermoo]

Yeah. For a lot of people there's a significant difference between "This is what I'm going to do" and them ignoring objections, and "This is what I'm thinking of. What do you think?"

Yup. In my opinion at least Steve is doing the later, not the former. Some of them are pretty close to the former (This is what I'm going to do unless someone makes a pretty good argument against it), but still in the later category. Or at least on the continuum between them...

[nexus]

I'll be stunned if he changes his mind on anything "major", very surprised if he changes it about anything "minor" and the things where he was basically asking for suggestions (like name changes) could go either way.

[Toadmaster]

I think what Toadmaster is saying is that he feels very few things in Hero are objectively broken (not none, nothing is perfect) and allot of the proposed changes are based on subjective ideas of what would be better. What would be a change for the better for say, buzz, probably wouldn't be a change for the better for me, for instance.

Exactly, there are many popular arguments, killing attacks, Str is too cheap, SPD is too complicated. The thing is they all come down to interpretation. I like KA's some people don't. Many of these come down to GM's not saying you are gaming the rules, try to stay with a concept and I guess that is where this is going. An attempt to game proof the rules which will be an utter failure, it can't be done, someone will always find a way to twist a rule to best effect and point based games really bring this out in people. Some people put concept first and don't care if there is a more efficient way if the more expensive way fits better, other people love to crunch numbers to find the absolute best use of their points.

The stun only killing attack being a great example of this, personally I wouldn't allow it since it is going against the very nature of the power. Killing attack are very effective but they run a higher risk of killing the target (d'uh), if killing the target is unacceptable buy a normal attack.

This is where the figured characteristics issue really blows me out of the water, where did that come from, I've been on these boards since the cybergames days and that was a new one on me. Obviously there are some who have had this thought, and of course there were isolated cases of this stat or that stat are under / over priced largely based on figureds or other related benefits, but never have I seen an argument for getting rid of them completely.

Obviously there must be some move afoot since decoupling stats from everything has been brought up, damage, movement, skills etc.

Its like people want to go back to the basic 6 STR, DEX, CON, WIS, INT, CHA and none of them really mean much in the overall scheme of things. I don't understand this at all because HERO has one of the most expressive stat blocks out there, I've seen better arguments for more stat interaction than less, Offensive PRE vs Defensive PRE, Agility vs DEX etc, I guess this stat thing is just taking it to the opposite extreme since Dex is already a combination of things why not combine some more stats.

In general I like HERO and GURPS, one of the key things I like about HERO is the rich character stats and it looks like we are going to lose that.

[Toadmaster]

Unless I'm grossly mis-remembering the changes from 5 to 5 revised, came about because Steve changed his mind or decided something could be explained better, not because other people changed his mind. I never said he was completely set in his ways, just that he does not seem to be swayed by others thoughts. I'll give you Sidekick may have been due to accepting peoples suggestions and interest in the idea, but as I recall he already wanted to do something like GURPS lite as an intro to the game. I wouldn't say HEROdom at large changed his mind about it. Encouraged him to move it up in the line up perhaps, but it wasn't a case of "I feel there is no need for such a product".

What I have seen over and over is HERO fans giving argument and argument for something and Steve goes right on his way and does what he wants. That is not a bad thing, ultimately he is responsible for the company and he should do what he feels is best. However I have not seem him actually engage in a fair debate on a subject, there is always a lack of his reasoning for decisions. Its not like debates between fans where one can actually see the thought process going on. That does not change the fact that we only have half the story and have to base arguments on guesses or assumptions at best. At least in court the opposing council has to disclose all their evidence and witnesses.

I still feel like I am trying to defend myself and don't even know what I'm being charged with.

With the figured stats he will never change my mind because he isn't even trying, "I think this is a good idea because I din't think the original idea ever fit with the game is not an argument it is a statement of opinion.

If I say I think blue cars are best, because blue cars are my favorite color of cars, how can you argue with me. If I say red cars are the best because red is highly visible and red cars are involved in fewer accidents then perhaps we can have a debate and you could change my mind. You can't argue a point without facts and all I've seen are opinions.

[Lucius]

I think what Toadmaster is saying is that he feels very few things in Hero are objectively broken (not none, nothing is perfect) and allot of the proposed changes are based on subjective ideas of what would be better. What would be a change for the better for say, buzz, probably wouldn't be a change for the better for me, for instance.

Hm. Well, there may be a point to saying that a lot of proposed changes are more subjective "I like this idea" rather than "That idea doesn't really work, or doesn't work that well."

I guess I'm just more focused on the things that really do need fixing.

And perhaps Toadmaster has a real point about decoupling figureds. While the characteristics rules definitely need some kind of adjustment, that's a pretty radical surgery to propose. It is definitely NOT what I would have suggested.

I'm just not sure it's going to wreck the game if Steve Long goes through with it.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary asks why I'm being so logical in what's supposed to be the emotional thread.

[Steve Long]

I appreciate the sentiment motivating this thread, but it's totally inappropriate for this forum. Please confine your posts in this forum to rules issues only.