The SPD chart

[Chris Goodwin]

I've noticed discussions on the SPD chart appearing all over the place, mainly because it has quite a few effects throughout the system. I'm thinking it may be best to break out SPD chart discussions into its own thread. If the Powers That Be disagree, we can close the thread with no hard feelings on my part. :)

[Thia Halmades]

I've noticed discussions on the SPD chart appearing all over the place, mainly because it has quite a few effects throughout the system. I'm thinking it may be best to break out SPD chart discussions into its own thread. If the Powers That Be disagree, we can close the thread with no hard feelings on my part. :)

I am pro SPD chart, so other than "Keep it!" I don't have much to say on the topic. But I think Steve mentioned it in another thread.

[Tonio]

I think some tweaks are in order, although whether to the speed chart itself or whether to some of the mechanics that surround it, I'm not sure. Specifically, the fact that the Block maneuver lends itself to speed chart metagaming (the maneuver is unexpectedly more useful if by some accident of the speed chart, the two combatants' next Phase occurs in the same Segment).

Also, the fact that higher SPD characters are, at times, either at a slight disadvantage or forced to Hold Actions is odd.

[CourtFool]

The Speed chart was one of the reasons I originally converted to Hero. Finally, someone who was faster than everyone else got their due. And having terrible luck at dice, I no longer had to rely on them to take advantage with my speedster.

Over the years, I have seen the gap between SPD of different characters close. No one wants to be the SPD 2 Brick when even the Mystic has a SPD 6. I am sure someone will provide anecdotal evidence to the contrary. It seems to me that combat flows smoother when everyone gets one turn. Realistic? No. But it keeps everyone at the table invested equally.

I could go either way with the Speed chart. I lean towards removing it.

[BigJackBrass]

There were several complaints on RPGnet about the perceived complexity of gaming terms in HERO, many of which I disagreed with. One thing did come to mind, though: I can't think of a good reason why, in a twelve second turn, segments aren't just called seconds. When I first bought Champions I recall getting surprisingly confused between segments and phases, so having seconds and phases seems a little more straightforward.

Of course, now I don't actually need the terminology changing but it's clearly a concern for some potential players (or fodder for some loud critics.) On the whole I rather like the Speed Chart. Must be the old Car Wars player in me :D

[Derek Hiemforth]

I think the concept of SPD (that certain characters will have more actions within a given span of time than other characters) is a central concept of the game, and I'd be opposed to removing it.

I'm less wedded to the Speed Chart as the specific implementation of that concept. I use the Speed Chart in my games, and I like it fine, but would also be open to other ways of doing the SPD idea.

The "problem" most people seem to have with the Speed Chart is its predictability. And I can see what they mean... it can lead to some odd "gaming the system" moments, where players do things like having their character Haymaker on Phases where they know the target doesn't have an action in the next Segment, and not using Haymaker when they know the target does have an action in the next Segment, etc.

However, the suggestions I've seen in the past for eliminating the predictability (such as rolling 1d12 each Segment, and if you roll your SPD or lower, you get an action) bring a different problem. Namely, it makes both teamwork and moving very odd. It's hard to coordinate with a teammate when you have no idea when that teammate will get an action, and having huge gaps of non-movement between moves gets very weird. (Weirder than Segmented Movement already is. ;))

[Sean Waters]

I've suggested this before, and it is freely adapted from the Deadlands game, but here it is again: one option for randomising the speed chart is you take a pack of cards, with the Kings and Jokers stripped out. Each new turn everyone is dealt a number of cards equal to their speed, and the face value of the cards shows the segments (seconds?) you can take phases on (Ace is 1, Jack is 11, Queen is 12). If you want you can leave the Kings and Jokers in: a King is a phase you can take whenever you like in a turn (except on a phase when you have already acted) and a Joker allows either 2 extra cards (i.e. +1 SPD) OR a phase whenever you like INCLUDING on a phase when you have already acted OR whatever other goodie you want to allow.

Something I've personally done, almost forever, is extra SPD with an activation roll: check activation PS12, and you are whatever speed you roll for the next turn. It randomises SPD whilst retaining the current structure and remains within the existing rule framework. SPD 4, +1 SPD 14-, +1 SPD 11-: you (in any given turn) act on SPD 4, 5 or 6 depending on your activation rolls.

Either or both could be used to reduce predictability witout actually overturning the applecart.

The problem with removing the SPD chart is that it has quite an impact on recoveries and such: you have to decide when effects like REC and regeneration take place. The easiest way is simply to build all characters to SPD 4 (or whatever) and so DEX determines action order, and everyone is on an equal footing. Again, this does not require the removal of the SPD chart.

[Lord Mhoram]

I think the speed chart is one of the cornerstone of the system, and I think it should have no changes.

As for predictability - that is what holding actions and such things are for. I've run a group of speed 4 agents who never moved on the same phases, and completely flummoxed my players.

[Lord Mhoram]

Something I've personally done, almost forever, is extra SPD with an activation roll:

I use that one, but as another thing - it's a great SFX for a speedster or martial artists trying for speed training. Sometimes they get faster sometimes they don't.

[sbarron]

I'm all for keeping the SPD chart. However, I'm not averse to having the manuevers and elements that allow the SPD chart to be manipulated being removed. Haymaker taking an extra segment being one, segments and phases and all the nuances therein being others. Just remove all the crap that ties into the SPD chart itself.

Like say, Haymaker doesn't take extra time, it just reduces your OCV and DCV, or something like that.

[MarkusDark]

I am also for keeping the speed chart as it is one of the things I loved about the game system. I don't like the idea of adding cards or other items to the tabletop game. I feel that the haymaker is something that could actually go by the wayside as it is just a '20 point push' that doesn't have a high end cost. Although I'll admit that I have often abused the system such as delaying an attack until a high DCV character has moved so that I can hit him with a weak single hex entangle and then smacking him before he goes again.

[buzz]

Whether one needs to remove the SPD chart wholesale or not, improvements need to be made. The simple fact that there's as much divisiveness as there is seems evidence that the mechanic could work better than it currently does.

[Captain Obvious]

I think some tweaks are in order, although whether to the speed chart itself or whether to some of the mechanics that surround it, I'm not sure. Specifically, the fact that the Block maneuver lends itself to speed chart metagaming (the maneuver is unexpectedly more useful if by some accident of the speed chart, the two combatants' next Phase occurs in the same Segment).

Also, the fact that higher SPD characters are, at times, either at a slight disadvantage or forced to Hold Actions is odd.

Maybe it's just because I've been playing Hero for so long, but I don't find Block to be unexpectedly more useful ever. At it's most basic level, you block this attack and go first next time. It makes sense.

EDIT: oh, and as far as changing the SPD chart, I'm agin it. Make options available for those who don't like it, but IMO it's one of the things that sets Hero above all other gaming systems.

[archermoo]

I have never seen a proposed improvement to the Speed Chart that does not in my opinion degrade gameplay. Generally quite seriously. As I've said in other threads, I consider it to be so central to the concept of the HERO System that I don't know that I would really consider anything that didn't include it to actually be HERO. I'd either stick with 5th, or just add the Speed Chart back into 6th for any games I run and just not play in any games that didn't use it.

I've used a card system similar to the one that Sean discusses that a friend of mine came up with. In my opinion it was a dismal failure. I stopped playing the game after a couple of sessions, and only lasted past the first combat because I liked gaming with the people in the group. A different friend tinkered around with the D12 method that Derek mentioned, but fortunately that one never even made it to the playtesting stage.

[archermoo]

Maybe it's just because I've been playing Hero for so long, but I don't find Block to be unexpectedly more useful ever. At it's most basic level, you block this attack and go first next time. It makes sense.

True, very simple. But you only go first next if you and the person you blocked both have your next Phase in the same Segment.

[Captain Obvious]

True, very simple. But you only go first next if you and the person you blocked both have your next Phase in the same Segment.

Idunno...I guess I'd say that rather than it being more useful in that case, it's less useful in others. I know, six of one and you say to-MAH-to, but to me, in real life and in-game, the basic function of a block is to not get hit and to set up your next attack all at once.

[Edsel]

I can't think of a good reason why, in a twelve second turn, segments aren't just called seconds. When I first bought Champions I recall getting surprisingly confused between segments and phases, so having seconds and phases seems a little more straightforward.
I think that this is a very good idea. Call them seconds instead of segements. Phase can be kept.

I have made my feeling known on one of the numerous threads but I will make it clear hear again. I feel that the SPD Chart mechanic is one of the cornerstones of the system and I am strongly in favor of keeping it.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I have never seen a proposed improvement to the Speed Chart that does not in my opinion degrade gameplay. Generally quite seriously.Agreed.

Just because I'm open to the possibility that a proposed new mechanic might implement the SPD concept in a better way than the SPD Chart does, doesn't mean I think it's at all likely that anyone will come up with such a mechanic. ;) On the contrary. I think it's exceptionally unlikely that anyone will propose a SPD Chart replacement that results in improved implementation of the SPD concept. People have been proposing alternatives for 25+ years now, and they've all failed, IMO.
As I've said in other threads, I consider it to be so central to the concept of the HERO System that I don't know that I would really consider anything that didn't include it to actually be HERO.Is it the segmented-and-spaced-out Speed Chart specifically that you think is so central, or the more general concept of characters having differing numbers of actions per turn?

[Edsel]

I started playing Champions about the same time Star Fleet Battles was first released. Kind of interesting that both games feature a Speed Chart. That may be part of the reason I like it, I am just so accustomed to it.

I like the idea of certain characters having a Speed advantage on other (there by getting more chances at action in a single turn). I also like the organization that it lends to the game. You (normally) don't have to worry about rolling off initiative every turn. The strategy part of the equation also comes into play: Setting up you opponent so that you can pull off a double action, the team working with a member or two on over watch to intercept ploys by the other side, etc.

[archermoo]

Agreed.

Just because I'm open to the possibility that a proposed new mechanic might implement the SPD concept in a better way than the SPD Chart does, doesn't mean I think it's at all likely that anyone will come up with such a mechanic. ;) On the contrary. I think it's exceptionally unlikely that anyone will propose a SPD Chart replacement that results in improved implementation of the SPD concept. People have been proposing alternatives for 25+ years now, and they've all failed, IMO.
Is it the segmented-and-spaced-out Speed Chart specifically that you think is so central, or the more general concept of characters having differing numbers of actions per turn?

Mostly it is the general concept, though I am also quite attached to the Speed Chart itself. Were the general concept that some characters get more actions than others to be ditched I'd almost certainly lose interest in the game. And I don't generally play super-fast characters. There is a much higher likelihood that I could be persuaded to use a different method of implementing the "some characters are faster than others" mechanic if one were to be found that did so better than the Speed Chart. I just find it highly unlikely that one will be found that does it better in my opinion.

I've seen a LOT of them over the last 25+ years. And I agree with you, all of them that I've seen are failures in my opinion. Or, to use a WoWism (just for you Steve), they are made of Epic Fail. ;)

[Sean Waters]

I have never seen a proposed improvement to the Speed Chart that does not in my opinion degrade gameplay. Generally quite seriously. As I've said in other threads, I consider it to be so central to the concept of the HERO System that I don't know that I would really consider anything that didn't include it to actually be HERO. I'd either stick with 5th, or just add the Speed Chart back into 6th for any games I run and just not play in any games that didn't use it.

I've used a card system similar to the one that Sean discusses that a friend of mine came up with. In my opinion it was a dismal failure. I stopped playing the game after a couple of sessions, and only lasted past the first combat because I liked gaming with the people in the group. A different friend tinkered around with the D12 method that Derek mentioned, but fortunately that one never even made it to the playtesting stage.

Personally I loved the inventiveness of Deadlands (and that is where the card based system I sugegsted was derived from), but felt that there were better ways to do it: I'd played Hero, after all :) There were some great thematic ideas, including the idea that players could earn 'chips' (as in poker chips) that they could use for combat bonuses or as XP. You can adapt that for Hero: you can burn XP in game to gain a short term bonus OR you can save it to spend on additional abilities for a 'long term' bonus.

Getting back to the SPD chart thing, there should be alternatives in the text, because not everyone feels the same way about SPD. Some LIKE the random element, others (and I'm generally in this group) like the structure. Either way, Hero AS IS, can cope, but it would be nice to have alternative methods spelled out, even if it is just in a side bar, for those who want them.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Getting back to the SPD chart thing, there should be alternatives in the text, because not everyone feels the same way about SPD.This way lies madness, IMO. Not that I'm saying Sean's crazy, you understand. Well, he probably is, but that's not what I'm saying. Not here, anyway. :D

Seriously, while I totally understand what you're saying, and while I agree that offering various options for some things is desirable, I think it's dangerous to use "because some people will like it this way" as the reason for deciding to provide multiple options. Because "some people" will prefer almost anything some other way from whatever way it currently is. The HERO System should not (IMO) attempt to try and be all things to all people. It would fail anyway, because no one could anticipate what everyone might want. And even making the attempt would overcomplicate the system, IMO.

Every added option increases flexibility, but it also increases complexity. It's logically likely for there to be a "point of diminishing returns," where additional options increase flexibility less than they increase complexity. So I think adding additional options should only be done when they offer something of real value (from a game design standpoint) other than just "some folks won't like the standard way, so we'll offer them another way." After all, some won't like the optional way either. So do we then offer a third way? And a fourth way? :)

[Sean Waters]

This way lies madness, IMO. Not that I'm saying Sean's crazy, you understand. Well, he probably is, but that's not what I'm saying. Not here, anyway. :D

Seriously, while I totally understand what you're saying, and while I agree that offering various options for some things is desirable, I think it's dangerous to use "because some people will like it this way" as the reason for deciding to provide multiple options. Because "some people" will prefer almost anything some other way from whatever way it currently is. The HERO System should not (IMO) attempt to try and be all things to all people. It would fail anyway, because no one could anticipate what everyone might want. And even making the attempt would overcomplicate the system, IMO.

Every added option increases flexibility, but it also increases complexity. It's logically likely for there to be a "point of diminishing returns," where additional options increase flexibility less than they increase complexity. So I think adding additional options should only be done when they offer something of real value (from a game design standpoint) other than just "some folks won't like the standard way, so we'll offer them another way." After all, some won't like the optional way either. So do we then offer a third way? And a fourth way? :)

Wibble. :ugly:

Options only increase comlpexity if they are used.

What I'd like to see is 'Core Hero' - the main body of the text, which sets out the way things are. I'd then like to see, either in side bars, or an a chapter end piece, the optional rules that you can adopt if you want. That way, Core Hero is straightforward and you decide on the level of increased or amended complexity.

If Hero is to live up to the claim that it is a toolkit, it needs a lot of different tools, to allow people to build what they want.

I do take your point: choice for the sake of choice is often more of a restriction than an increase in freedom, but I can see real value in pointing out the possibilities in the system and not being too rigid about where we let people go with it. Most of the problems people perceive (and I'd include the SPD chart) can in fact be solved in the character design stage, but for people who can't see that, or simply don't want to accept it, alternate rules can be very attractive - it gives the perception of a very individua system.

Maybe though we could incorporate this idea as 'The Ultimate Alternative' - a seperate book that suggests all the alternatvie methods of doing things, and stick with a more defined system in its most common incarnation?

[buzz]

I'm with Derek on this. Save the radical variants for the various Ultimate (now "Book of..") books. The core HERO books should present just that, a core that work out of the box.

And, no, I don't think that this would diminish HERO's status as a "toolkit." The toolkit is the Powers system. Outside of that, I think presenting too many variants just creates confusion.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Options only increase comlpexity if they are used.They only increase complexity during game time if they're used. They increase the complexity of the book if they're included at all. (They increase the raw amount of material presented, and increase the number of choices that players have to make about how to use the system.)
What I'd like to see is 'Core Hero' - the main body of the text, which sets out the way things are. I'd then like to see, either in side bars, or an a chapter end piece, the optional rules that you can adopt if you want. That way, Core Hero is straightforward and you decide on the level of increased or amended complexity.I could see an even finer breakdown than that, honestly.

To use the ongoing toolkit metaphor, The HERO System Basic Rulebook would be like the 40-piece compact toolkit someone would buy when they move away from home. It's got your basic hammer, tape measure, a couple of screwdrivers, a pair of pliers, a few wrenches, and so on. Lots of general utility, but not a wide, wide variety of tools of any one kind.

The HERO System 6th Edition would be like the 250-piece jumbo toolkit someone might buy when they bought a house. It includes all the same kinds of stuff as the compact toolkit, but with some added types of tools (maybe a hand saw, a level, etc.) and many, many more tools in general (a much wider array of wrenches, ratchet socket heads, screwdriver bits, etc. etc. etc.) You're much more likely to have a tool to fit your exact need with this toolkit than with the compact one, but it's still a general toolkit.

Then, you could have other ruleset expansions that would be like specialized tool sets (carpenter's tools, plumber's tools, electrician's tools, etc.) To some extent, the Genre Books already provide specialized toolkit expansions (tools you use to build a campaign in this genre). But there might be room for books that provide more options for styles of play rather than genres of play.

For example, maybe there could be a book of optional rules aimed at increasing granular "realism" in combat for people who want to build campaigns featuring really detailed hit locations or wound effects. Maybe there could be a book of optional rules for detailed social conflict and interaction, for campaigns where the resolution of the main action relies much more on social character conflict than on physical character conflict. Maybe there could even be books that provide additional "general" optional rules for H6E.

[rjcurrie]

I've honestly never had a problem with the Speed Chart in over 25 years of playing Hero System games. It was one of the parts of the system that made total sense to me, much moreso than the initiative/action systems of other games I've played. Losing the Speed Chart would be one of the few things that might make me consider moving away from Hero or at least not moving to the new edition.

[McCoy]

I know Steve has said "No sacred cows," that everything is on the table now, but may I suggest a couple of bovines that should be annointed?

Without the Speed chart and STUN pips, it's not the game I've been playing for 25 years.

[Alibear]

Yup, for me the speed chart and body and stun are sacred. If they go I'll stay in 5th Ed.

[Kdansky]

I also really don't want to lose the speed chart. But chaning it for the better is not removing it, right? What about this:

The speed chart works well, BUT it has one drawback. On the low end scale, 1 point of difference is too big. From 2 to 4 you double your actions, that's sooo huge. Anyone who has played any non-super game will attest you that having speed 2, 3 or 4 is totally the deciding factor in any combat. If you can act twice as much or just 50% more often, it's already game over. Compare: If you have 4 speed vs 2 speed, you effectively get +3 DCV in the worst case, because you just dodge every attack. Best case: Immune to area of effect with Dive for cover, or just plain free recoveries or double the damage.
I would like to see it reworked this way: Base speed is 5, Base turn time is 20 seconds (new time chart would be 20 seconds, 2 minutes, 10 minutes, 1 hour, ... works well from here on). So going from 5 speed to 6 is only 20% increase (still a major advantage for a lousy 10 points, but not as bad as from 2 to 3), and speed 10 is twice as many actions (and costs 50 points, I consider that balanced). Obviously, recovery starts to get worse, so you just take it twice as often to compensate, or make the stat a cheaper. Or get slightly different fight feel (less recoveries). It's not worse, it's only different. So I would stick to the concept, but play around with the numbers.
Also, I'm only suggesting to increase the turn time from 12 to 20 because that gives us more granularity and "looks" fine. You act every four seconds (5 / 20) if you are a normal human, if you are a super, it's faster. If we stay at 12 max, but increase base from 2 to 5, I suppose we will have a huge number of speed 10+ characters (currently 7+) and nearly no speed "chart" anymore. It's just "I miss the action in 6, and you miss the action in 4 and 8". Too crowded.
But the thing I would like to see is just "higher base value", to make differences smaller.

[steamteck]

I think that this is a very good idea. Call them seconds instead of segements. Phase can be kept.

I have made my feeling known on one of the numerous threads but I will make it clear hear again. I feel that the SPD Chart mechanic is one of the cornerstones of the system and I am strongly in favor of keeping it.


Keep as segments I'd rather the exact time be a little blurry so I don't get suspension of disbelief breakage by my players ( we did all that in X seconds give me a break!)

[Vondy]

I use the speed chart, but the order on a given segment is based on a dex roll and the margin of success. Highest margin of success goes first. It makes dex order less absolute while still leveraging the goodness of the speed chart. I use the standard method with large groups, and give mooks a flat margin of success of 0 (henchmen and named villains get rolls).

[MilkmanDan]

I know Steve has said "No sacred cows," that everything is on the table now, but may I suggest a couple of bovines that should be annointed?

Without the Speed chart and STUN pips, it's not the game I've been playing for 25 years.

Moo to the Speed chart here as well. Can't imagine Hero without it.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Contrary to almost everybody else in this thread I would be glad to see the SPD chart being removed from the game (or at least demoted to being optional). I shall try to clarify why:

In heroic games – where SPD doesn’t differ that much between PCs and NPCs – it’s the Dexterity and not the SPD chart that matters most.
The SPD chart doesn’t differentiate between fast attacks slow attacks, so it’s more of an action chart (I guess you know what I mean).
It promotes a form of “cold war” between the NPCs and the PCs, where Dex/SPD is more important than character concept. I hope that isn’t an issue in all groups, but it has been in mine.

My preferred system would be something akin to the one found in Exalted:

There isn’t anything akin to true turns. Once “combat time” has started, the clock just keeps ticking.
Each phase (or action) “costs” a number of segments (or seconds) to perform. The cost is low for fast maneuvers and high for slow maneuvers.
High SPD lowers the segment “cost” (one segment lower per SPD).
Two actions that occur on the same segment occur simultaneously without any differentiation.

The benefit of this system is that it simulates high speed action more closely (at least in my oppinion). It also helps the GM in managing combat where SPD changes during mid-combat more easily.

[Opal]

The SPD chart is the Third Rail of the Hero System: you can't touch it.


In heroic games – where SPD doesn’t differ that much between PCs and NPCs – it’s the Dexterity and not the SPD chart that matters most.It depends on how much SPD varies. If your heroic game has everyone, but everyone, at SPD 4, something is wrong - but, you can, indeed, do away with the SPD chart. The difference between SPD 3 and SPD 4 is meaningful. Just last week, my gun-wielding agent wouldn't have been able to defeat the zombies attacking him were it not for that critical difference (BTW: Romero is spinning in his grave! Fast Zomies! ARGH!).

The SPD chart doesn’t differentiate between fast attacks slow attacks, so it’s more of an action chart (I guess you know what I mean).I do, though the details of full phase, half-phase, phase-terminating, and +1 segment actions and manuevers do. And, yes, it is very much an action chart.

It promotes a form of “cold war” between the NPCs and the PCs, where Dex/SPD is more important than character concept. I hope that isn’t an issue in all groups, but it has been in mine.I saw a lot more of this in the past, before NCM became commonly acceptable. IMX, once a group gets the idea that SPD higher than 4 is to some degree 'super human' concepts that call for the character to be 'slow' stop buying 5 SPDs, and everyone can take it down a notch.

Also, it is entirely possible, with clever play and the right abilities, to stand up to a SPD disparity.

Each phase (or action) “costs” a number of segments (or seconds) to perform. The cost is low for fast maneuvers and high for slow maneuvers.Systems like this do run into potential problems if it's possible to push an attack action down to (or even close to) the unit level, and layer bonuses on it. The 'knitting needle of death' phenomenon. Or, for that matter, if the assigned costs of all actions aren't extremely well done.

[The Monster]

I agree that the SPD chart should stay, pretty much as is. Removing it would take something from the heart of Hero, and the various means of tinkering with it can be optional or even house rules. And I say that as someone who doesn't like the predictability of it - I just can't think of a really good way to get around it without seriously messing things up (I might try the d12 version; it's the most attractive of all the ones I've seen so far).

The one thing I'd suggest would be to get rid of post-12 recovery. The basic system works, and the 12-second (big up vote for that terminology change!) cycle is after all an artifact of a 12-SPD game maximum. While I won't fight and die for it, I'd like to see all recoveries take actual time away from other things you're doing.

[Lightning91]

Random Thoughts on the Speed Chart


I think the speed chart goes to the essence of the system, and would not like to see it removed. However, minor tweeks may be possible.

I personally do not like the assumption that every character (including NPCs) has a minimum speed of two (true for PC's, but not true by definition for NPC's or creatures). There are even statements to the effect, that combat starts in phase 12 so everyone can take an action prior to a phase 12 recovery.... which would be news to characters with Speed 1 whose phase is in segment 7.
Also rules for drowning or other environment effects have the character slow down to speed 2 to minimize the effect... except for Speed 1 characters (So if you are really slow, you can apparently hold your breath twice as long).

I think the best change to the speed table would be to divorce movement from Speed. Specifically, I believe you should buy your maximum (combat) speed in the characteristic, and then divide your movement among your segments, with extra hexes added to the earliest segments.

When I first read the Speed Chart, I did not like the predictability that faster characters could use to their advantages (i.e. haymakers etc...) However with abort manuevers, held actions, and the various talents, it seems to me that "gaming the system" like this is the equivalent of a fighter waiting for an opportune moment for the big punch. The strategic nature of the "gaming" reflects the tactics one would consider in combat. As such, I have grown to appreciate the system.

I do not have much (er.... any) experience running Hero combat.... However, if I were GM and characters were separated in groups, I would run each group through a full turn (i.e. until the segment 12 recovery) and then rotate to the next group. I think this would give combat a quicker more natural flow; could possibly speed up combat since the smaller groups would be easier to manage; would allow players time to consider tactics or refer to rules/sheets during another groups turn; would prevent someone engaged in H2H from suddenly trying to influence combat across a field, because their comrade was one shot from dieing; and allow for fridge trips and bathroom breaks.
The effect would be similar to a page in a comic being on one combat, then the words "Meanwhile" swapping to another character, or a movie swapping between to scenes. When combat returns to a group, the player could have an opportunity to recap and describe his previous turn, which would encourage in story descriptions.

[Markdoc]

I'll also weigh in for the SPD chart staying too. I feel it's core to the Hero system and removing it would change many, many things about the game.

And that's kind of odd, because I don't actually use it in my own games anymore - I use a simple, randomized house rule system.*

However, the SPD chart drew my attention instantly when I stated gaming with Hero, and it did teach the system in a simple, structured way. I think removing it would be a mistake, first because it's so core it's disappearance would alienate many fans, and second, because it's not that hard to go from the SPD chart to another approach, but it would be very hard for GMs who wanted the SPD chart, to put it back in once removed.

Cheers, Mark

*I'd argue that the simple "dice for segment" isn't in fact made of Epic Fail. But don't ask me, since it's my house rule: you can ask Susano, who played for a couple of years in a game using it :D

It's not an approach that suits combat technicians, but I like that: and it enables me to run combats featuring 30+ NPCs easily, so it suits my needs better than the chart did.

[Captain Obvious]

The one thing I'd suggest would be to get rid of post-12 recovery. The basic system works, and the 12-second (big up vote for that terminology change!) cycle is after all an artifact of a 12-SPD game maximum. While I won't fight and die for it, I'd like to see all recoveries take actual time away from other things you're doing.

Getting rid of post-12 recoveries would make for some pretty low stamina "heroes". A guy with 15 STR, 30 END, and 3 SPD (who should be fairly well above the average normal) wouldn't even be able to fight for a minute without burning STUN. Fighting for two minutes would probably put him out.

I'm not of heroic physique by any means, but I know I can fight for two minutes, and even though it takes a lot out of me, I don't feel like I'm about to pass out at the end.

[CleverName]

I'm probably one of the audience that Hero 6th is interested in. HERO was my system of choice for about 12 years.

I still like it now, but every attempt to get my gaming group to try it in the past 6 or so years has failed in the long run due to the factors that each and every one of you knows.

The SPD chart is one of them -- that is, the whole mechanics involving the length and complexity of timing and actual play time for the humans seated around the game table. Call me a heretic, run me off of the board on a rail, but man, it's more of a liability than an asset.

If he wants to maximize the fun, the action around the table, the engagement of the players then he need to take a long hard look at this core mechanic.

[Alibear]

I would looe both endurance as a stat and post segment 12 recoveries.

Combats should be faster, more brutal, imho. Not drawn out like a a Rocky film. Two or three good hits and it's goodnight from me. And goodnight from him..

In fact, I'm removing them from my games as of the next time we play.

[Vondy]

I would looe both endurance as a stat and post segment 12 recoveries.

Combats should be faster, more brutal, imho. Not drawn out like a a Rocky film. Two or three good hits and it's goodnight from me. And goodnight from him..

In fact, I'm removing them from my games as of the next time we play.

I think that's excellent for some genres and some styles of play. I think its a good option to have, but not something I'd like to see ripped out of the system. I want to see hero emphasize the toolkit approach, and thus provide options that allow flexibility in mixing and matching its component parts.

[Markdoc]

Combats should be faster, more brutal, imho. Not drawn out like a a Rocky film. Two or three good hits and it's goodnight from me. And goodnight from him..

In fact, I'm removing them from my games as of the next time we play.

I've thought about leaving END out entirely, but there are certain concepts that otherwise become a bit hard to do.

However: since my current game started with 50/50 RPG or Hero n00bs and more experienced players, I left END out in the beginning, I explained the concept first and then noted that we'd add it later when everyone was up to speed with the combat system. In fact, I added END back in when the players asked me to. We did that, and it was Good.


cheers, Mark

[steamteck]

I would looe both endurance as a stat and post segment 12 recoveries.

Combats should be faster, more brutal, imho. Not drawn out like a a Rocky film. Two or three good hits and it's goodnight from me. And goodnight from him..

In fact, I'm removing them from my games as of the next time we play.


But I want my dramatic cinematic final confrontation/duel so I lean the other way. The HERO community is so diverse that so many of the changes that lean one way cause problems for others. Looks like HERO is better balanced now for its audience than previously thought. I hope we can keep that.

I like the speed chat but I wouldn't cry if it left( well, maybe a little). Its a cool way to represent different speeds but I could still play HERO ok without it. I rather my characteristics all stay instead for instance if I had to choose one or the other. however no other mechanic than the speed chart seems to represent differing characters abilities to act more often 1/2 as well. i like the fact your multiple actions are intermingles together so a SPD3 person doesn't get all 3 actions before a speed 2 person.

That being said, it does boggle many a newbie and even vets sometimes. maybe include it as an advanced rule or include an optional alternative.

[nexus]

I would looe both endurance as a stat and post segment 12 recoveries.

Combats should be faster, more brutal, imho. Not drawn out like a a Rocky film. Two or three good hits and it's goodnight from me. And goodnight from him..

In fact, I'm removing them from my games as of the next time we play.

That works for some genres and some playstyles but I don't think its universal enough that the alternative should be dropped from a "Toolkit" style system.

[nexus]

Contrary to almost everybody else in this thread I would be glad to see the SPD chart being removed from the game (or at least demoted to being optional). I shall try to clarify why:

In heroic games – where SPD doesn’t differ that much between PCs and NPCs – it’s the Dexterity and not the SPD chart that matters most.
The SPD chart doesn’t differentiate between fast attacks slow attacks, so it’s more of an action chart (I guess you know what I mean).
It promotes a form of “cold war” between the NPCs and the PCs, where Dex/SPD is more important than character concept. I hope that isn’t an issue in all groups, but it has been in mine.

My preferred system would be something akin to the one found in Exalted:

There isn’t anything akin to true turns. Once “combat time” has started, the clock just keeps ticking.
Each phase (or action) “costs” a number of segments (or seconds) to perform. The cost is low for fast maneuvers and high for slow maneuvers.
High SPD lowers the segment “cost” (one segment lower per SPD).
Two actions that occur on the same segment occur simultaneously without any differentiation.

The benefit of this system is that it simulates high speed action more closely (at least in my oppinion). It also helps the GM in managing combat where SPD changes during mid-combat more easily.


The tick based system Is interesting but, if anything, its turned out to be more complicated than Speed chart. So much so that a new tool was designed specifically to handle it The Battlewheel. So if simplicity in the goal I think using tick based initiative would be a lateral move at best. I've had much more trouble explaining Tick and how they interact than I have ever had explaining speed.

[Opal]

Blocking someone much faster than you can be a problem that way. When blocking someone slower, you'll either go in a segment before him, or go first on the next segment you have togther because your DEX is higher.

Block is really valuable when you're evenly matched - same SPD, and either same DEX or you have a slightly lower DEX.

Of course, you can also take a martial manuever with the 'must follow block' element.


All in all, I find the SPD chart and the mechanics around it very satisfying. They give high SPD characters a very real, but definitely not insurmountable advantage. Yes, it is possible to 'finesse' the SPD chart, but it's also possible to mess with characters trying to do so.

[nexus]

Back in my day the Spd chart only had one segment. If you wound up for a Haymaker (which had to be a PUNCH, not even a kick. A PUNCH!) it automatically didn't land until the fight was over!

And we liked it!

You kids and your newfangled maneuvers and post segment 12 and 6th edition... feh...

[ajackson]

Hm. An idea which came to me: how would a feng-shui like shot system work? The basic implementation I can visualize is this:

You have a 'next segment' value. If your 'next segment' is less than or equal to the current segment, you can act; otherwise, you cannot (unless aborting to a defensive action).

Any time you act, your 'next segment' becomes 'current segment +X', where X depends on your Spd. To keep something close to current granularity, I'd set X to be 24/Spd, which maps as follows: 12->2, 8->3, 6->4, 5->5, 4->6, 3->8, 2->12. This loses some granularity at the high end (Spd 7 and Spd 9-11 are no longer meaningful), but adds granularity at the low end (there is a Spd score between 3 and 4, and multiple between 2 and 3). A fight that lasts 2 turns under current rules would last 48 shots under these rules.

If you abort (defined as going before your normal next action), add X to your next segment, rather than to the current segment.

There are a couple of advantages to this scheme. For example, it handles SPD changes in a clean way (the current rules for changing Spd values are very clunky), it eliminates the temptation of delaying until the bottom of the segment right before your next phase, and it lets you implement effects with different Spd values.

This can also be reversed, for a countdown mechanic, but I think I prefer counting up.

[IndianaJoe3]

I've been playing around with the ideas of increasing the number of segments in a turn (to 15 or 20), reducing the cost of SPD (8 or 6 pts for 1 SPD), and changing base SPD (either 1+DEX/8 or 1+DEX/6), and divorcing movement from the Speed Chart. Let's consider a few examples:
DEX 14, SPD 3
DEX 18, SPD 3
DEX 18, SPD 4
DEX 23, SPD 4
DEX 23, SPD 5
DEX 30, SPD 6
DEX 60, SPD 12

(Normals, as always, will be DEX 10 and SPD 2.)

#1, under the current system, spends 6 points on SPD. Under the 15-segment (15S) chart, he would spend 2 pts for SPD 3 or 10 pts for SPD 4. The 20-segment chart (20S) gives him a base SPD of 3, and SPD 4 costs 4 pts.

#2 normally spends 2 pts. 15S gives him a base SPD 3, and SPD 4 is only 4 more points. Under 20S his base is 4 SPD, and SPD 5 costs 6 more points.

#3 normally spends 12 points. Under 15S, 12 points will get him to SPD 5. 12 points under 20S gives him SPD 6.

#4 spends 7 points normally. Under 15S he spends 1 point for SPD 4, or 9 pts for SPD 5. 20S gives a base SPD 4, SPD 5 for 1 pt, and SPD 6 for 7 pts.

#5 normally spends 17 points. The same 17 points gives him SPD 6 under 15s. Under 20S, he can spend 13 pts for SPD 7 or 19 pts for SPD 8.

#6 spends 20 points normally. He'll have a base SPD of 4 under 15S, and 20 pts will give him SPD 7. 20S gives him a base of 6 SPD, and 24 pts gives him SPD 10.

#7 normally spends 50 points maxing out. He'll spend 52 points under 15S and 54 points under 20S.

I'll have to rework movement another time, it's getting late here. :( Hope this provides some food for discussion.

[Spence]

Count me as another that wants to leave the SPD Chart intact and unaltered.

Hero is currently the only system (that I know of) that actually allows beings moving at faster speeds to actually move faster. The rest all use various initiative systems that rather than try to simulate the difference in reaction and speed, actually hobbles the faster characters so that the slower ones get to act as often.

I usually try to keep the SPD inflation down, but that isn't a game system problem IMO, but rather a player/GM problem. If the game is a standard Supers game then most supers should be in the 3-5 speed range since a speed 4 is twice as fast as a normal and athletic human. Speed 6 and above is the realm of Speedsters. If a GM actually maintains the balance in his/he game then you don't get he disparity of one player acting all the time and the other sitting out most of the game. I know many people who do not hold with that, but it has worked for me since 82.

Heroic games are much less a problem for me since the intro of NCM.

If I was to do anything it would be to get rid of Aborting an Action. I have never liked the idea of a person being able to reach into future time to pull back the ability to act. Which is basically what pulling your next phase is.

I am most adamantly against any kind of random action system. I consider it ridiculous that Sam the town drunk with an extra 50 pounds of gut can magically draw and fire before Dead Eye Jack the fastest gun in the West just because his player drew a better card off of a deck of cards.

All in all, one of the major reasons I play Hero is that it doesn't have one of the initiative systems that primarily relies on luck for determining action order.

If the opponents are of equal speed luck has a place. But the Flash shouldn't loose his advantage and get clobbered by Escargot the Spd 1 brick because he "drew an Ace".

Hero is rightly called a tool box. But the tools shouldn't get blamed because the user can't use them.

Did I mention that I am 1000% against randomized methods to determine PC/NPC action order? ;)

[Kdansky]

I usually try to keep the SPD inflation down, but that isn't a game system problem IMO, but rather a player/GM problem. If the game is a standard Supers game then most supers should be in the 3-5 speed range since a speed 4 is twice as fast as a normal and athletic human. Speed 6 and above is the realm of Speedsters. If a GM actually maintains the balance in his/he game then you don't get he disparity of one player acting all the time and the other sitting out most of the game. I know many people who do not hold with that, but it has worked for me since 82.
Now see, there is one sentence in there which I think is horribly clouded by anecdotal experience (and then instantly doubled up with the "works for me, [therefore it must be the best thing in the world]" sentence). You state the speed inflation is a GM/Player problem. Quite frankly, that's not the case. The reason for speed inflation is very, very simple. If you have 350 points to spend, and doubling your speed from 2 to 4 only costs you 20 points, in essence doubling your power for less than 10% of your overall cost, then that is the reason why anyone wants to have more speed. After reaching 6 or 7, speed starts to drop in power, because you only get 1/6 or 1/7th faster, not a full 50% for 10 points. And that also happens. Rarely any brick player would actually go above speed 6, because at that point speed starts to get expensive. +1 more combatlevel suddenly looks good.
Sure, any GM can just limit anything, but the less eyeballing required the better.

I'm still vastly in favour of just having a higher base speed (like 5, instead of 2), then +1 speed would not be such an outrageous difference anymore.

And guess why you don't have that in Heroics that much: If you only *have* a 150 points, buying speed above NCM for 20 is just five times as expensive (relatively) as buying speed at 10 with 350 points to burn. Also, "base expenses" hurt the heroic PC way more than the super. If I "waste" 30 points for useless background skills, or breakfall or whatever, I still got 320 left, which is more than 90%. You're a full 20% down, that's a lot.

See, basically the problem presents itself differently because many things are fixed in cost, but the characters have a different amount of points to spend. Desolid, Invis or Unusual Senses are *very* expensive in heroic. They are outright cheap at 350cp. Attacks stay the same, because they scale. But I'm drifting off.

Also, I want to keep the speed chart. Convince me about disadvantages of "speed chart extended to 20, base speed now 5".
Realism? Not so much, act once every 4 seconds sounds ok.
It's not as it used to be? Yeah, ok, I give you that. Cannot advance if you don't change, can we?
Not better? Wrong! Clear advantage on the lower scale due to higher granularity.

(obviously, movement powers might have to be recosted to make for believable point/movement speed ratio, but that's trivial).

[Steve Long]

Please do not start threads for issues that are covered by existing categories. SPD Chart discussion can go in either Characteristics or Combat, I don't care which.